Transcript of Record — Anderson v. Mt. Clemens Pottery Co.

Supreme Court brief1946

Ask Donna

What actually matters in this document.

Text

eng a

oo me’

pan.

wry a

‘a ™% :

ong eats

Ay te!

Ls TF “

ee. ~ &)). a

eet

cal rie

rao ad ¥

9 ’

Seth

=a Court of th United Stat

upreme Ort OF TE UNNBO ofaies

| : OCTOBER TERM, 1945 —

é -~

é}

No. te Sit te °

e STEVE ANDERSON, EARL TROMBLEY, LILEDAN

SOCTA, ARBERT WATRINS. ARTHUR “ SIBBE,

) NELSON LUCHTMAN, RETA SCHULTE, individually,

for and mn behalf of themselves and other- similarly situ

: dated; and LOCAL. No. boss.) UNTPED POTTERY

WORKERS OF AMERICA, Affiliated: with the € Oi eres

, “of Industrial Organyations, Mi. Clemens. Michisa

° ” Petitioners,

et f ; ; “ st °

WS. i

AE CLEMENS HOTTERY COMPARY,

Ree sph dot nl nl.

———_—_-——+-

ey TRANSCRIPT OF RECORD

\ On Petition for Writ of Certiorari to the United States Circuit

: Court of ‘Appeals for the Sixth Cireuit

(VOL. 11l—Index and Panes 1057. to 1583. Inclusive)

(Proceedings in U.S. Circuit Court of pe. Sixth Circuit)

—-—— —

a EDWARD LAMB,

: LOWELL GOERLICH.,

: 1014 Edison Bldg...

Toledo, Ohne,

j Attorneys for Petitioners.

FRANK. E. COOPER. .

BEAUMONT, SMITH & HARRIS,

Ford, Building, *

Detroit.. Michigan,

BERT V. NUNNELEY,

Mt.: Clemens, Mich.

Attorneys for Respondent.

SS =

3 Fs ea ., ne: >

we fy Seen pam 3 EMIS RAIS PERN LEAP ME

: - _ , we. ~~

‘ a" os aan: at - - 8

. a

: e :

- . ¥

a7] ‘

. e oO

. eo

y . .

5 .

. te ‘

° e 5 “

° “ ‘

< \

. 4 . . \

’ .

. x ® .

; a ’ .

. .

2 ° %

. -

4 .

: 4 ° ! a ‘

7 .

; . :

be FP ,

. . = ©

. y . .

. ° _

‘ ‘.

; ia : ;

. ; )

. . ’

. .

‘ P ‘ ° ’

: ¥ aoe . “e

Es .

a ‘ ; :

” : «

oe %.

United States of America

— -In THE o

United States Circuit Court of Appeals

ne, FOR THE SIXTH CIRCUIT

MT. CLEMENS POTTERY COMPANY.

Appellant,

vs.

STEVE ANDERSON, EARL TROMBLEY, LILLIAN

SOCIA, ALBERT WATKINS, ARTHUR SIBBE, NEL-

SON EUCHTMAN, RITA SCHULTE, individually, for ~

and in behalf of themselves and others similarly situated ;

and LOCAL 1083, UNITED POTTERY WORKERS

OF AMERICA, Affiliated with the Congress of Industrial |

Organizations. Mt, Clemens. Michigan, |

- - Appellees |

| Appeal From the District Court of the United States for the

. Eastern District of Michigan, Southern Division.

; Civil Agtion No. 2582 -

“| ‘TRANSCRIPT OF RECORD —

(VOL. I11—Index and Pages 1057 to 1583, Inclusive)

“4

FRANK E. COOPER,

*. 11th Floor, Ford Building.

Detroit 26, Michigan ;

BERT V. NUNNELEY, °

Mt. Clemens ee Bank Building.

. Mt. Clemens, ichigan ; pies

BEAUMONT, SMITH .& HARRIS.

Of Counsel,

ee Attornevs for Appellant.

“ EDWARD. LAMB,

LOWELL GOERLICH,

1014 Edison Building, -

Toledo, Ohio, -

~ . Attorneys for Appellees.

vw” | aa ty

. ° °

° .

“ : .

- -

f .

. \\ ‘

2 on 4

* :

1 .

°.@

3 ,

‘

‘ .

2 .

* ° ° pe ;

. .

‘ ; . e

: *

. —7 . 7 .

- .

s e ‘ .

Ms -

e : 4

° +

a .

co . . as ,

. .

e ™ .

x a

° e :

. 4 .

ba .

y 2°

‘

. ©

{ >

| a ee |

; ; /GENERAL INDEX

: 7 Index of Exhibits —. ;

. The exhibits, including those which were not designated for inclusion

“ef each exhibit and with references to transcript and record pages in

im the printed record, are listed numerically with a concise description |

the concluding volume of the record. To conserve space, this Index: of *

Exhibits has not been reproduced in. the General Index. | rai oy

——— index of Pleadings: -

= - . Record

: , ‘ E / Page

: 4 able of Calendar Entries «ppc Sey Soe 3

4 ee } . ou

| PROCEEDINGS IN UNITED STATES CIRCUIT COURT = *

4 OF APPEALS—SIXTH CIRCUIT.

a . | / PAGE

| Entry—Cahise” Argued and Submitted... 1587 7

2 Judgment ....... Mi A set Seebnne se ee 1587

He Opin nn ccc lineetpeeeneeeteee ABBR 9

4 Clerk’s Certificate sanscnsasnnnsattaienahd aye wetness | a! eae mae 1598 ‘es Q ;

oo 4 ;

: Designation of Harry May, et al ..... ‘2 $5

-4 Designation of Arthur: Baxter, et al ....0....-- . 36

- Designation of. -Ruth Gottschalk, et al .... coon eeeneeentette ieee)

‘Designation of Arthur Sibbe, et ee eee — penne ae 39

4 Designation of H. Wilson, et al ares me ey By Opal eeccecbeeeeten .

"S Bill ‘of Particulars. .......-..-..------------f ig eka een . 42

- ’ fig"

Recor

Page

Motion: to strike or for further particulars SL seshascinmtdicnd ootidec hast ae

"Order on motion of defendant to strike or for further particulars... of

- Order extending time to file es saa to the Bill of Particulars

to December 15, 1941 0000 Fe... iemaewid aa auc 3

- Amendment to plaintiff’s Bill of Particulars ..:......:6.2:....00004 ec. 5

_ Motion for Judgment and for appointment of’ Special Master... .

Motion of Mt. Clemens Pottery ee to strike or for further

particulars. . RSE CRIS REE AA OT OT |

. Answer of Mt. Clemens Pottery Company to Motion for pena

and for appointment of Special Master ............ Pea Sy ne &&

Order denying Motion for Judginent ees eas fas Bed cis Rr RYE.

Answer of Mt. Clemens Pottery Company and Motions to Dismiss

« . @me Bertie 5... aieisiae te LPR Sap St AEC IE , Of

Order wieea plaintist ’s request for Judgment without eer

Senetiinentel Order. denying . ’s request for Judement

* without prejudice, MI nde nenns chess cognate codeesnonss tnangueiieonouatncinnccene 114

: Exceptions of Mt. Clemens Pottery Company to ‘Supplemental,

Order of January 6, 1942 2 Spisnle Wah aoe Gas 115!

' Motion of plaintiffs for Summary Judgment .. seo tie Nannon fOr oe 117

Answer of Mt. Clemens Pottery Company to Motion. for Gurinnes ;

II a ced ee ee er pti: ~ 125

Order denying Motion for ‘Summary Judgment ce 136°

Order denying Motion for Summary Judgment and referring cause .

to ‘Donald. L. Quaife as Special Master ee Die Rape lie Pe Re aes - 137.

Supplemental Order denxing Motion for Summary J udgment, ete:.. 139

i Designation of Irene Nocker, et al 00002000... pc ictiansasecineeu ned 141»

. Designation of Bil> Behnke, et al ...... ota nae, Ra ot Me -... 142

“oe Ld ’

, cd ¢

ah. . % , : ry

. : ie . *, Page

Report of Special Master 02... goss pecuseeiek

| Objections to Master’ 8 Report ceedadeccnssecsonse BN ere ATA ne 218.

_ Motion of Mt. Clemens Pottery Company tor entry ot Judgment

' on Report of Special RS ts acd ENeeaelinas 237

» Order dismissing cause as toS.8 3. Kresge Co. with prejudice 238

- Opinion of the Court (July 2 , 1943) .. So ame Lie ae Os ce

- Motion of Plaintiffs to settle Findings of — Conclusions of

_ Law and for Judgment,,.../....-.---- Teron eee RRs uses cheeeeicdeocinter’ ae

= : t

| Motion of Plaintiffs for ‘Supplemental Findings .2....:0.0...00 0020... 256

: :

> Motion of Defendant Sedpepne adoption of Findings and ¢'on-

7 ne a allan puascenisemmpiabninsmenisner he ... 259

: Notice of settlement of findings of fact, and conclusions of law... 269

: Findings of Fact and ¢ ‘onclusions of. Law ited SPR Cee

Preliminary Statement of Exceptions t by Defendant to Findings

: of Fact and Conclusions: of Law . NS ain enero orn Deroy 274

; Computations made in accordarice with Court’s findings. 276

‘ Notice of hearing ou defendant’s motion for findings - : _- 2860

5 Opinion of-the Court (Marek 3, 1944) * Beane. tess nee 2 87

; ‘Motion ‘to Amend- ‘Findings of Faot and ( ‘onelasions, of Law and:

:. for an. entry of, Judgment Pei os CPs ve arene. Ep

i Objections to allowance of attorney fees 245)

Judgment. for Piaintiffs in $2,415.74, ‘attorney. fees $2,000. 00 ‘ok

_ . Costs to be Taxed : oe ene ; ye Ne ee |

. Petition.for Fixing of Bond and Providing for Stay on ‘om

OE TI ies coisas cron eemananentctne DeTaNe Teerietennecaree oh «Server , . 306

» Order fixing Amount of ‘Supersddaas and dance Bond and, Pro-

viding for Stay on Giving of Bond. Pee Br ae 2 307

6 ® oy

Petition for Order ‘Dispensing with. a | of Physical |

‘Exhibits in Printed Record (.00000000.0.00. 308

Order Dispensing with Reproduction of Exhibits in Printed Record ‘B12 .

: Notice of Appeal to Cireuit Court of Appeals Under Rule 7 i 13. 313

Supersedeas and Appeal Bond_ Pree sdstnrepaonene See Bak aticialowd 314

Proof of Mailing Notice BRFSS eens isedilas ssonseces vessase ORO &

Designation tf Record om Appeal by Defendant,Appellant aks .. 316

Concise Statement. of Points ‘on which. Defendant- eansecine Mt. :

Clemens Pottery Company. Intends to Rely . a a

Affidavit of Service ................. necenausovesnsenad iiadedetasiaplincacdatuehes inpcvasthedaeetal 379 |

Order Extending Time to File Record on Appeal... aes 1582 —

Stipulation As to Transcript and Exhibits LP NA ia eepds 1582 .

Order allowing certiorari ® a ; . : 1509)

€ ?

¥e

—_—

go *: 6

INDEX OF WITNESSES

Witnesses Called’ by the Plaintiffs

oe ‘

Anderson, Steve—

_ . Tirect Examination by Mr. Lamb |...

Direct Examination (Resumed) by Mr. Lamb

‘Cross Examination by Mr. Cooper

Redirect Examination by Mr. Lamb |... oe

Recross Examination by Mr. Cooper

Dacko, N Elita oy: /

Direct Examination by Mr. ak |

(ress Examination by, Mr. Cooper

Redirect Examination by Mr. Lamb

Recross Examin&tion by Mr. Cooper

Redirect Examination by Mr. Lamb .

Doll, Charles K.. ‘Sr. — %

Examination by Mr. Lajeah i ar. ae

(‘ross Examination by Mr. Cooper

‘Freddie, Kva— :

Direct Examination by } Mr. Lamb ..

Cross Examination (Resumed) by Mr. C ‘ooper

Cross Examination (Resumed) by Mr. Cooper

.Cross Examination by Mr. Nunneley - re

Redirect Examination by Mr, Lamb ...... ...... ee

Recross Examination by Mr. Nunnéley.. .

406

$21. .:

wie OO

_ 600

| Recross Examination (Recalled) by Mr. ‘ooper.. a

‘ Redirect Examination (Recalled) by Mr. Lamb’

: Recross Examination by Mr. Nunneléy

939

1473

1474

Hecord Transcript

ri)

502

505

$31

sa)

* 2090

3505

3525

iy74

L9YS

2049

2107

2183

2185

- 2194

1467 -°

48Y

1784

1813

1945

1974

: vi a

We. a Record

’ Larimer, Karl William—

Direct EXamination by ‘Mr. Goerlich —--_. 69)

Cross Examination by Mr. Nunneley 701 |

Metz, John A.—. .

Direct Examination by Mr* Lamb 607

Cross Examination by Mr. Nunneley 625

Pearl, Floyd E.— | nay

Direct Examination by Mr. hamb.__ 1480

‘Cross Examination by Mr. Nunneley ..........:......:.. 1486:

Redirect Examination by Mr. Lamb ee sere rine

> ;

Reifin, Harry A.— ys 2 *

Direct Examination’ by ‘Mr. Lamb 1314

Cross Examination by Mr. Nunneley . 133s.

Socia, Lillian— m4

Direct Examination by Mr. Goerlich - 736

Crass Examination by Mr. Cooper 743

Trombley, Kar] R.—.

Direct Exapination by Mr. Lamb . 425)

Cross Examination by Mr. Nunneley 435

Redirect Examination by Mr. Lamb... .’s. ... «518

Reeross Examination by Mr. money 520

Wishart, James H.— Aa)

Direct Examination by Mr. ‘Sims ee ae Ac ae 1449

Cross Examination hy Mr. Nunneley

‘li —

Tranmecrip:

- 112)

116)

vile

: res _ Witnesses Called by the Defendant.

: Record

Pheu, Pail C— |

Direct Examination by Mr. NIE ieee

Cross Examination by Mr. Lamb 974

Cross Examination by Mr, ‘Boos _... 979

ecross Examination by Mr. Lamb .... 981

Redirect Examination hy ‘Mr. Cooper . v8)

“Doli, ‘Charles E., io. :

- Direct Examination by Mr. Nunneley |. 1209 |

_ | Cross Examination by ay Pe eennene | ~ |

2 Redirect Examination by Mr. Numneley ....... .. 1233

_ _ .Redirect Examination “(Recalled). by. Mr. Cooper. . 1571

qi - Redirect Examination ( Recalled) by Mr. Nunneley. 1472

_ _ Reeross Examination by Mr. Lamb : 1472 |

4 ‘4 . ¢ f

* Doll, Char les E.. oc — :

Previous Examination by-Mr. Cooper ate 1U8ti

4 Direct Examination by Mr. Cooper é 1275

_ . Cross Examination by Mr. Lamb ......... ec

5 Redirect Examination by Mr. Cooper +... ,......1294

g Redirect Examination (Recalled) by Mr. Capper... 1436

_’ - Recross Examination by Mr. Lamb... ..............1435)

: Redirect Examination byt Mr. Cooper ......................1440

.’ Redirect Examination (Resumed) by Mr. Cooper. ...1466

: _ Redirect Examination (Recalled) by Mr. Nunneley. 14:0

: Doll, James: R.— : | a te

Direct Examination by Mr. Cooper: nce

Fitton, Robert A.—

Direct Examination by Mr. ee cs 983,

Cross Examination by Mr. Lamb .... SORES 7A 995

Redirect Examination by Mr. ‘Nunpley . 998

‘6

Transcript

viii : natiges e

" ; : , ; Necerd ‘Trans

' Fitton, Robert A.—(Continued) z ons +

Cross Examination _by.Mr. Boos ~~... ee ‘

™ >" “Recross Examination by Mr. Lamb ....... a ow 6

‘Redirect Examination. by Mr. Nunneley ............... ~.-1000. 9

Fox, Joséph D.— ae |

Direct Examination by: Mr. Cooper 0... 1234 y

Cross Examination by Mr. Lamb ...... nS 2

Harms, Krnest A.— Meats , ,

Direct Examination by Mr. Cooper (©. L166 J

= _ Cross Examination by Mr. Lamb... teeeeteeee LBD 2

Redirect Examination by Mr. Cooper ......__ -.. .1207 2

q Starner, Carl— . ea

. Direct Examination by Mr. Nunneley es )|6l6U

ross Examination by Mr. Lamb... 1064s 2)

Redirect ‘Examination by Mr. Nunneley er 2

. *. -Recross Examination by Mr. Lamb... 1078 2

. , Redirect Examination by Mr. Numneley 1084 2.

Recross Examination by Mr. Lamb 1085 2.

Stief, Willard ¢.—.

Direct Examination by Mr. Cooper. | pees |)

Cross, Examination by Mr. Lamb |. ir 130K. Bt

Trabue, Macon Charles— > e end

Direct Examination by Mr. Cooper a 3

; Cross Examination by Mr. Lamb... .s«1415 3

. °° Redirect Examination by.Mr. Cooper. «430 3

ree Recross Examination by Mr. Lamb. sss—(si‘—Ss—sCSCéi 3

Wright, Pierce E—

Bs Diréct Examination by Mr. Cooper .................. ae 1339 3]

Cross Examination by Mr. Lamb... "136235

Redirect Examination by Mr. Cooper 1368 3

| 2 2 ae

Fig

ect cab pst tite SG Sais Tae

= i” wet

; =. Mess wa OS ipa |

Sy Yay eye . . “ ~ as

eee ae = . . Se ae . . > . > is ak Sb sei { y .4..2 ..

Fe EOS BGS pie REA oe pit IL I RE GG Pte Oe i. ei poets ae RS Ga ES OY Sa a 38

_ . - a ' : :

Curl L. Starner o 1057

— >

- Starner. Now, in giving your estimates of these

times, they are given without having held a sto watch

on these people to see how quickly they can walk from

_ one place to another?

A. That is right; I wouldn’t want to be—

'Q. And they are also given with reference to the con-'

‘ditions under which these people have to travel the dis-.

tance, being through the factory with whatever turns,

obstructions and so on there. might be in the way, is that

right? .

A. That is right, yes.

Q. And it is based very largely on the fact that from.

your observation: you know what time they arrive in gen-

‘eral in the department; where you have the job of get-

ting them started at an established starting time, is that .

correct?

A. That is ela yes.

Q. Now. I ask you I believe, about this day; I showed

that Mr. Metz, on Exhibit 31, the first Monday on which

he was on the morning shift, which shows that he checked

out at the clock at 10:31; 1 think at that time you were —

being asked whether he had quit work or stopped work

ee. 10:307

You ask’ me that — now?

: Yes.

A. T would say that he had to auit before “10:30, to

ring out at 10:31.

Q.. And on the same day, on Exhibit 31, it shows that -

again. at noon, the ‘lunch period, that he apparently

punched theeclock at 10:53: would you say that he started

work before 11 0’elock or after 11-0’clock, or when? * * °

A. 1 don’t see how he could get started there before

1 o’¢lock

Q. What is vour best judgment as to. that?

1058 at Carl L. Starner

A. | would Say it would be 11 o’clock or after, before

he starts; ring in at 10:53, I would say 11 o’clock or

after.

Q. And in each of those cases he couldn't start any-

way, until the other two were there in his group?

A, That is right.

Q. And it shows that he rang , out. on that came Mon-

day, referring to Exhibit 31,.at 2:40. What would you

say as to whether he worked after 2:30 or not?

A. Well, my—from — I would say that this

-man didn’t work after 2:

Q. As a matter of fact, what is the ena practice

in the department as to requiring them to stop at the

stopping time?

A. We insist on them stopping at 2:30.

The Master: Just to get your testimony clear in each

case, when you state he didn’t start work until such and

such a time, or ‘he didn't stop—or he stopped work at

‘such and such a time, and when you say you insist on

them stenting at 2:30, you are referring in éacl) case,

stoppirg production work? . toe

A. That is right. ;

The Master: Or starting production work?

A. Or starting production work. * * *

The Master: Exhibit 31 you have been testifying to,

you stated Mr. Metz came in in the morning on.the first:

Monday on the card at 5:49, and-you stated he. couldn't

have gone to work much hefore 6:00.

A. That is right.

The Master: And you have also stated Metz, most of

the time, was working on these mangles which have this

particular operation.- When you stated Metz could not

have started work much before 6:00, did you have in mind

he could not have started his operation as a jigger man

before 6:00, or that he could not have started his turning

on the heat much before 6007°* * *

A. I think my testimony before would stand the same

even without.that operation.

: Carl L. Starner | 1059

Q. (By Mr. Nunneley) In other words, you mean by

that, figuring it either way he couldn’t have started: be-

fore .6 o’clock? | i

A. That is it exactly. |

Q. So that when the employee went back and ‘he

started up his tool or machinery that ‘was provided for _

him to tmake his ware with, is that correct ? |

A. ‘That is right.

‘Q. And. part of the starting up operation would be

the turning on of the heat?

A. It could be termed as a, = **

Q. (By Mr. Nunneley) Mr. Starner, were 5 there times

. when the starting time was changed? In other words,

was it always 6 o’clock, or was it varied from time to

ee?

Res

= <&

¥:

time? |

A. It vaYied from time te time, tie. It wasn't always

6 o’clock. [*

Q. What would be the case in iti sinracik, as to

quitting time?

A. Changing: time? They did often—I don’t sav quite

often, but there is times when the starting time in the

afternoon was changed, too.

Q. What about the quitting time?

ee. 'A. The quitting time would be changed.

Ge Q.' In that event, your — would be notified ahead

-. cof tinte, would they? . 5

Ae? A.. That is right. They were always. told about that

85 Q. ’ Referring to this Exhibit 31, it shows that Mr. Metz

ay punched in at-10:53. on the first Monday that he was on™

Re the morning shift. What. would you say as.to whether

<4 or not he started work before. 11 o’clock?

A. I don’t see how Metz could start before 11 o’clock.

a _ Q. And on the same day and the same Exhibit 31, it

es shows that he punched out again at 2:40. What ‘time

~ would you say that he ceased work? Was it before 2:30

or after 2:30, or‘at 2:30 or when? :

A. I would say he didn’t work any ies than 2:30.

Q. Now, Fo sk Starner, .in giving estimates of times,

¥ epi

1060 >, | Carl L. Starner

atid $0 » on, that you have given here, what observation or

- means have you or did you have of finding out or " know:

ing what. the times were?

A. That is, in coming into the depariment? |

Q. Yes, in coming in. vies ini

A. Well, from obstrvation, t é time the peopl® come

into the department, you could tell about when, they rang

jn: In other words, it is several minutes after: the time

for the people to ring ip that they actually arrive in the

department, and I have noticed time ‘cards at different

times, looking at them, the time that they rang in and’

rang out, and judging by the time they arrived and leit

the-department about’ how much time they consumed be- °

tween the clock and their departments: That has been

‘my observation. That is the way I am basing my. caleu-

lations here. ?

Q,. And you also at one time were an. ‘setsis worker,

doing these same operations, is that correct? |

ry a sir.

Ow, on Tuesday, when Mr. Metz was on the morn.

ing nos it shows he punched in on Exhibit 31 at 5:51, is

that correct? ; [

-A. That.-is right, sir. : 3

-Q. What is your testimony as td. whethe} he started

to work before 6 o’clock on that day?

A, From all observations, I would. say that \he wouldn’’t

be started before 6 o’clock.

- Q. And on the same day, as shown on. Exhibit 31, he

punched out at 10:30 at lunch time. What time would

you say he stopped work on that day? \. \

A. It would be impossible for him to work to 10:30

and ring out at.10:30. I would say he had to quit minutes

before 10:30 to’ get to the time clock at 10:30.

Q. And on that same day, shown on Exhibit 31, Tues-

day, on the morning shift, he rang in again°*after lunch at

10:54. Would you say he- got started to work before 11

o’clock on that day?

A. I don’t believe Metz could ot started at #1 o'clock

_ that day.

{

Carl Lb. Starner 143)

Q. From your observation would it be true that he

must have started after 11?

A. I believe so.

Q. And on the same.day, Tuesday, that he Was on the

pene shift, shown on Exhibit 31, it shows he rang out

at 2:54. Would vou say that. he worked after 2:45 on

that day? * * *

Q. (By Mr. Nuiineley) Will) vou answer the ques-

tion? Do you recall what the question was?

A. Yes: I don’t see. how somebody could constantly:

disobey the rules without. our observatior; | would say

that the man quit at 2:45. ° °°

-The Master: I would*tike to ask this question : if Metz _

punched the time clock at 14 minutes to 6:00 on a given

. morning, would, you say that he coyld have started work

‘before six o "clock, production work?.

A. Well; his starting. to work at 6 o ’elock would de-

pend upon the other two people of the grgup; even if he

was in there in time’ enough to start before 6 o’cletk him-

self; so I don’t see how he could have ever beer timed to

be in there:at 14 minutes to. In — that doesn ‘t a

They don’t do that.

‘The Master: .I don” just see ‘lint siies we are going”

to sé out of going tise all these time clock cards

then, because even if he got in at the very earliest time

_ the witness. would still say, that is the very earliest time

he could go by the time clock, he would still say he didn’t |

start work before six.. Your testimony yesterday, I be-

lieve, was that as a normal proposition nobody started

work before 6 o’clock, when the shift was supposed to

start at six, is that right?

A. That is right; I think’ I testified we would never

quibble over a minute. or two: ‘before 6 o’clock,. because we

never stood there with a clock in our hands.

The Master: -They might start a minute or two before,

but not before that?.

A. It is possible, if everything synchronized so they

could’ start, then we wouldn’t ‘object to it. The starting

time was 6 o’clock. “I can’t say, and I don’t think any-

L062 Carl 1. Sifirner

body else can say nobody started before 6 o’cleck, unless

there was somé kind of timing there to show Whether they

’ did or not. * * *

*.Q. (By Mr. Nunneley) Mrv Starner; it was,- a I un-

derstood you to testify yesterday, it- was instructions

from the management. at foremen’s meetings, and was

part of your job, _to see that the time was kept down to

the legal amount, whether 44, 42, or 40; or under. You

testitied to. that yesterday? |

That is. absolutely right. SRE

4 Now, in your department were there any employees

during the period the law was in effect who habitually

. and continuously worked more than the 40 hours, or. 42

- hours, or 44, as the case may be, when the law was in

‘effect? * * * 4

A. The answer to that would be no, ‘absolutely not.

The Master: And, again, by ‘*work’’ you are defining

. work as production work, just to get the record: clear’.

A. That is. right. Sale

Mr. Lamb: May the,record also show I request the. e

answer of the witness be stricken.

- The. Master: Yes. I _ deny: it and. let the testimony

stand. ; s

‘Q. (By Mr. ae Mr. Stdgner, in cndes where

' people ‘might have occasionally worked over the 40 hours.

or 42, or 44, as ‘the case may be, wopld: that show in. the:

records?

A. It certainly would.

- Q. Mr. Starner, in this Exhibit 31 I notice there is.a

time when Mr. Metz punched, out at 2:18. What would

that indicate? (Handing exhibit to witness.)

A. His time in that cBse,. of course, as computed by ‘

the card, would stop -at.™2:15, ‘but he would actu-

ally have quit before that time to be able to ring out at

- 2:18. Does that answer your “question?

Q. Would that mean that he quit, also, at some time

before the 2:301 ee

A. Before the given time to stop. |

- .

oon WPS ae ag Crd :

(RRNA AIS Cea

AYERS Sa Va eee os

Saye naked:

Curl LiStarwer 1063,

The Master: Why would he quit at 2:18 if. the, sluft

ended at 2:30? | ‘ = fe ist

"A. Well, there is times when various reasons would

come up that.a fellow would want to quit. in a hurry.and -

he would do that, wanting to go somewhere, he had to be

some place at a certain time, and he wanted to stop early.

thut day. “There was various reasons why a -fellow”

. wanted to quit at 2:15. ‘Ifthe department didn’t quii we

would give a fellow permisstén to stop. ° oe

Q. You used the expression ‘‘changing uniforms.”’

8 “4 ° .

Nobody wears-a uniform there, do they, in the ordinary

ie +

sense of the word? |

“A. .No, not the“éntire uniform. I ‘really meant their

aprons and things like ‘that. ‘I was really referring to the -

aprons. age” | ie. acing

~Q. (By Mr. Nunneley) Mr. Starner, did you’ ever’

see Mr. Lamb before you came into court here yesterday?

A. Never did, sir. - tes :

Q. Did~you ever; have him pointed out or recognize ~

him.in any way? - — 7. o : ;

A. Never have, sir. .

+ Q. ‘Did you ever'start suit against the Mt. Clemens

Pottery Company, and garnishee the S. S. Kresge Com

pany in Toledo? : :

- -A. Absolutely not.

@. Did you ever authorize anybody to start such a”

suit for you?

‘ A. No, sir. .

‘Q. If such a suit’ was started, was it, done entirely

without your permission or authority, Mr. Starner?

_ A. Yes, sir, entirely without it.

suit? . ns :

A. When I first learned that, when’I. was told by Mr.

Doll. = ae

Q. Do you reéall somewhere when that wast_-

A. ' The exact time, I don’t believe I could give you. It

has been some time ago. ~ . | =

Mr. Nunneley: . Take the witness. ~ |

When did you: first learn that there was such a.

™

"ae : IPs

A a , by om

a Py ze : tae ~-

» e .

te 10647 r i Carl re Starner eee & g

Cross Examinatipn -_

i ie hee ee, er

Q: Do understand that if. you are one of the named’ -

plaintiffs in an-.action in a proceeding for those named

plaintiffs, instituted in a court down in Toledo, that the .

authorization and power -of: attorney and other records .~

signed -by the employees in- thesé matters, nofie of such

' reeords would bear your signature, is that correct? . -

A. I haven’t signed no papers or giv en anyone author.

itv to bring abgut any. “ suit.. .

Q. And if there’ is @ signature’ on an, satiate,

and power of attorney purporting*to be your signature.

that would not bave been applied by yourself, is that eor-

rect? ; ait

a That is ented. : Js :

Q. - Now, I understand, you have. been a foreman of the

Mt. aa aN Pettery Company elay hop for some: 18 .

_ vears that correct? ? a e

A. That is right. ~ ne .

-. Q. During these years, you have had foremen’s meet-

ings, usually addressed by Mr. Doll’ Pane

fi ho. Tite

@. These meine were held on Tuesday of ‘each

week? . :

A. For quite some time we have had those.

Q. As I* understand it, rs these years you have

~usnally arrived at the plant and in your’ shop around 5:30

in the morning, is that correct?

A. I.arrived at around 5:30 in the morning if the

starting tinie' was 6 6’clock.

Q. I see. Did vou, determine the evening before from

some. source as to what the starting time would be for,

the next day?

A. We always knew ahead ot time when ins starting

_ time would be.

— Q.. Did you get that information, Mr. Starner,. or did

you make that decision? - Did you get ~~: information:

-~ ; 5 e

Carl L. Starner - > 1065

i 6 sole ° .

.-from someone else or“did you mak®: the devisjon as to

what time thecemployees should come in the next day?

AS Well, it wasn’t always just -‘my own decision.

Q?. But did you participate in it?

A. Yes, sir. | ae

-Q. Arid then you conveyed ‘that information to the

employees, is ‘that, correct, the day before, so they would

know! : eres Ne

A. That is right. - | =

; Q. is this.man, Mr. Fitten, .Robert Fitten, an assist.

ant of yours, that is, an ‘assistant foreman in the same

shep of which you are foreman? re hone re

A. That is right. " :

(). “hat is the Mt. -Fitten who testified here yester’

; day? . ie oe ™

A. That is right. . te he 3 : bag

QY.- I thought you said yesterday that the dies, and so

-- forth, were turned op or ‘heated by you shortly-after you

arrived ‘at work: at 9:30, for ‘instance, so that the same

a would be ‘warm and ready for the people when they came. ,

eo work; is that' your testimony? |

A. I said they were turned on ahead of timie, yes.

‘ Q)::. Dosyou oversee that work? ,

iB ia A. 1 check up to see if it is being ‘done. |

; Q.' Now, if an employee . worked until, or, his time

4 Jock dard shows-that he worked until 2:29, that is start

4 ing.at 6, he worked until 2:29, are yo familiar with the

time that the comparf¥ would have paid him to?

Mr. Cooper: An objection to the hypothetical question.

> * es #@#

: The Master: .What you want to know is, in other

¢° * words, if the time elock cards ‘show the employee checked

out at 2:29 how much time was ‘he credited with.

Mr. Lamb: Okay, I will ask’ that. ;

Mr. Nunneley: - All right.

The Master: They apparently have no objection to

that form, and that seems to get what you want.

1066 | Carl L. Starner : . :

So, wilP you answer that question ; if an employee |

checks out at 2:29, how much time is he credited with.

A. The time would be emeatel to: 2:15, if he rang

out at 2:29 Pa ee

.Q. (By Be. Lamb) That is right. “And if he rang

‘in at 5:46, from what time would the company compu ite

his time? : @ oa °

A. His hours, you mean?

- Q.. Yes. ah |

A.’ 6 o’clock. . S

Q. That is, if he had checked in at 5:46, they would —

«ompute his time from 6 o’clock, is that aa testimony? ?

-. A. That is right.

Q. Now, I am not too certain on ybur. di t exam-

ination that you said that the pails, scrapers and sponges

were all charged to the jigger man, or that some of those

articles may have been charged to finishers. What is-your

testimony about that?

A. The jigger man pays for those supplies.

Q. _ And I think you said: that’ that had been the prge-

tice until recently? :

A. That has- always been ° the sein that these

-charges be to the jigger men until during this period of

time.

Mr. Nunneley:

. suit? * _ a

- 6. A. The period of ‘time seoaboads “se . @

' Q. Has the practice continued since the filing of the ~~

suit? |

The period of time involved in the.’

A. Do. I have to answer that? . * F

- The Master: Yes, answer it. vaca has been no ob- ‘4

jectign. . 4 :

Mr. Cooper: If the witness haiows. |

The Master: If you know. Of course, obviously, if * A

you don’t know, you can’t testify. ;

‘A. Why, not altogether. I should ad that it is the - §

same. ae

m =. . ‘ tay 7 a

’ .

‘ . - ‘ 7 .

“Te. . f

. 6 . :

Curl L. Staruct . » 1067

The Master: I -beg ydur —— |

A.. The charges are. not made exactly the same as ‘they

* were before. ey’

_ The Master: How are they made. now, if you know?

A. Well, if you méan each individual’s supply?

Mr. Nunneley: What difference does it make, since the

‘ suit started, if they Made a change in the method of

charging? ey 2

» The Master: 1 will find out ont of curiosity, it nothing

~ «lse, What they do tiow. It may have some slight bearing.

A. You mean in regards to all these supplies, or cer-

tain supplies? hee “

"The Master: In regards to the supplies you mentioned,

-the pails, sponges, scrappers and scrapers? No, Ale

serappers you don’t have to-worry about..

A... No charge on scrappers.

The Master: The scrapers, pails, and sponges,

A. The serapers and pails would be the jigger ‘man’s

property. The sponges, are at the present time—that is

what you mean—by the finishers. oe

Q. (By ‘Mr. Lamb) Paid by the finisher?

A, That is right.

Q. And not by the jigger man?

A. That is righi.

Q. Now, you said that. the sponge is eharged to the

employee on. an average ‘of -about 35 cents apiece, Do

you have any notion of how much that sponge costs the

company? ’ See, Ca

Mr. Cooper: Object on the question “Of materiality,

yeur Honor. sue

Mr. Lamb: -It is highly material. a es

The Master: Well, it is raised in the pleadings, and

I will let you argue that in th¢ briefs. I will take the

testimony without ruling on the effect to be given to it. - .

A. Did I say that all the sponges cost 35 cents?

- Mr. Lamb:: No, You said that they averaged 35 cents.

The Master: You, at least, put some average on it.

Mr. Lamb: Some as low as 16 cents? '

’

. ‘ x .

P ° . ce ’ BN

1 Carl L. Starucr

.. A. That is right: I didn’t say they were paying over

35 cents, though, did I? ©

Q. (By Mr. Lamb)~ No. i don’t want to mnia-state

your direct testimony. I simply want—calling your at-

tention to sponges that are charged to the employ ees at

the rate of 35 cents, let us put it that wav—

. A. Yes.

Q. —Do you have any notion of what that sponge casts |

the company?

A. I am. pretty much impressed by the ‘people wlio

come there with the sponges, that the sponges are costing

the pottery most all the time more than actually what

they are charging, and it ‘might be when sponges were

easier to get in times past, and. some time back, that they

might have been issuing them out at the same price, but

I am sure most of the time, if there is any difference, the

people are getting them for less,

Mr.,Lamb: I-want to get not your impression, but—

Mr. “Nunneley : You asked him.

’ Mr. Lamb: I am asking you whether you have any

knowledge of the amount that the sponge, which is sold to

the employee, or charged the employee for 35 cents

much that a costs the company? |

The Master: ou know how much that spofige costs?

A. I would afl wouldn’t know about th

Q. (By Mr. Lamb) I see. You don’

that that sponge costs less than 20 cents to the company ?-

A. Not that I can verify.

Q. I See. Did you bear Mr.: Doll testify -about - ‘the

policy of mark-up on products, sold and charged to the

employees? 2, :

A. ‘1 did not. >

Q. Calling your attention to cards which have been

produced for Delbert Phillips, was: Detbert Phillips an :

employee in the clay shop? — .

“A. That is right. * * * :

- The Master: It will be Exhibit 74, with a letter that

will be given to it later.

~ Oe i EET RE a

Cal LS freer | - 1069

Q. (By Mr. Lamb) I note. on that Thursday, the first

Thursday marked on that‘ card, that Delbert Phillips re-

ported in at 6:48, out at 12 0 ‘clock, reported in at noon:

at 12:22 and out at night at 4:39. Will you tell us your

computation under : ‘the company’s instructions, and

method ‘of computation of the amount of time that Delbert

. Phillips worked. on. that- _ Would you ‘like a —

and pencil? 77s

A. I would say 9 hours. ; ons

Q. All right. Now, on the following day, which is

Friday, on the time card:for the. period ending August

27, 1940, Mr. Phillips checked in in the morning at 6:53,

out at 11:34, in at noon at 12:36 and out at night at 4:22°

Will you, under the company’s method of computation,

advise us the time worked by Mr. Phillips? *.* * -

A. According to that #t would be 8 hours. * * *

Q. And on the following day, Saturday, the employee

checked in at 6:15 and out at 10 :55, is that. correct?”

A. That is right. =

'Q. And the computation that ~~ make for the time ~

he worked on that day? - :

A. It would be 414 hours. :

Q. From 6:15 to 10:58 is 4% hours, the way you: com-

pute his time, 4s that’ ‘correct? — |

A. Yes, sir. °

Q. And that is what the company has ies his

time for, is that correct? * *.°

A. Yes, aa *.* ;

Q. That is right. -Now, let’s go down one more and.

skip Monday and take Tuesday. Mr. poe ee re-

ported in at.7.:47, is that correct?.

A. ‘That is correct.

Q. And out at 10:12, is that correct?

A. That is right. .

> Q. , And you havé given him credit for how much time

‘worked? ©

ber We have given him credit for 2 hours, as ‘T can see

there.

x XN

1070 Carl Le. Starner

Q. There are a great many written notations around -

that card. Are you able to advise us-what those indicate?

_ A. No, I don’t believe I could, sir. “aera

Q. I was asking you whether you knew, if you can, tell

us that you saw Mr. Delbert Phillips on that Saturday

morning, which is indicated by Exhibit 74-U?

A. You asked me if I saw him?

Q. Yes. a

. s A. I couldn’t say whether I did or didn’t:

_ Q.° Now, you have testified about some employees

getting to work and punching the time clock and some-

times talking about hunting or gossiping some place along

that line’ Did you mean to imply that you saw Delbert

Phillips do any of those things on that Saturday morning?

_ ,A. May I explain there? I say I didri’t. see - Delbert

Phillips on this particular Saturday morning, because the

card indicates that he worked some other kind of work

‘the day before, which might have told him then to ‘report

at the same job the néxt day. I am not sure. * * *

Q. Now, you said‘ something about employees having

strolled to their work from the time clock to their bench.

Did you see Delbert Phillips strolling that day or did you

see him running, or just what was he doing on that dav?

Tiow was he conducting himself between the time clock

and his work?

A. On what day, sir?

Q. On the Saturday indicated by Exhibit 74-U?

The Master: He says he was in some other department

' that day. Perhaps you could pick out some day on which

he was in this department.

Q. (By Mr. Lamb) There .isn’t any question that he

wea_in your department on the period ending September

— 10, 1940, on Wednesday, the first Wednesday marked on

that card, is there? | .

A. That is right.

Q. Being Exhibit 74W?t . ;

A. That is right. 7 -

Q. Tell me how he conducted himself between the time

’

. re, Loa

vebdedrig eee NEE

Carl 1. Staves ; 1071

clock and his working activities that day. Did he run or

‘did -he stroll? Going in, I mean. °

A.- I don’t think I could tell! you that, your Honor,

, because I wouldn’t: remember what particular a: as to

whether: he did that particular day or not.

Q. And would you~bave-any knowledge of the time

worked except by looking at the time cards? ~ |

Mr. Cooper: Objection, if your Honor please, to the

tarm of the question, which assumes that a look at the

time ecards would .indicate the hours worked. ;

Mr. Lamb: This is cross examjnation, and I'am asking

him if he would have any knowledge of the time worked

without looking— = .

The Master: - I think it-is proper. I will take the an-

swer. * e- *?

A. Except from the time clock card, | don’t see how

-» [ could, because I ‘couldw’t remember unless I go back

and ehecked the amount of ware that he produced ‘that

particular day, and had that to verify the fact he worked

on that day, :but I haven’t got those records here in my

hand. “

Q. (By Mr. land) ‘That is right. Now, supposing—

can you tell us hew much time he worked on any day,

except by looking at the time clock cards?

A. From this standpoint here? From here?

‘The Master: Yes; right now. Can you tell right on the

stand if any particular day were picked, could you tell

how much time he worked without looking at the time. wi

clock cards?

A. Not from here I couldn’t, no. as

. Q. (By Mr. Lamb) Well, even if you had some pro-

duction ‘records they wouldn’t indicate the hours he

worked, would they? In other words, some days he might -

produce more if the material were there?- :

A. That is right. .

Q. Ahd the position, and so forth, and other days he

would. produce less in the same amount of time?

A. That is right: a

’

* 2

Cc ;

72 Carl LAtarwer

Q. So, I understand it, it would be your testimony :

that only by looking at the time clock cards can you ‘tel!

bow much time any employee in your department worked,

is that correct? ;

A. After the day has gone by sometimes——now, .you_

~ are referring back there for quite some time.

Q. That is right, 1 am referring to the period—

A. At this late date that would be the only way I ¢an-

recall, because 1 couldn't remember.

_ Q. That is the purpose of keeping time ‘cards, isn't it!

A. I wouldn’t know, to be sure, if that is what the

company keeps time cards for. _ :

_-Q. (By Mr. Lamb) As I understand it, your testimony

‘on the practices of the employees applies to those eim-

ployees in the clay shop department -only?

A. That is right, sir. GC Aiioy

Q. That is correct, is it not?

A. That is right.

Q. And do you have anything to do with making com.

putation of tlie time worked by the employees’ in the clay

shop? .

_A. So far as the cards are concerned?

Y. Yes/.. 7

A. I have nothing to do with that.

Q. That is done by some person in the office, J sup-

pasef . ‘ .

A. That is right. * * ° See

(Time cards of Wells Clay were thereupon .

marked, respectively. Exhibits 75, 75-A to 75-Z.

‘and 75-AA to 75-LL. inciusive.) * * * ~

Q. (By Mr. Lamb) Now, I assume that what you

said in reference to Delbert Phillips is equally true as to

the employee Wells Clay, particularly with reference to

not being able to advise the particular ~pproach of any

employee on any particular day between the time’ clock

sind the place of his bench, ix that correct? * * *

The Master: That is, you don’t know on any particn-

te planeta ie ast ah

EES SSeS ES ne Ce Bee aN

‘anl LL. Ntariwes bilgas

lar da, any given: diy, how a particular employee ap--

proached from the time clock, from punching in the time

clock, to the place where he started his production work,

for this period from 1938 to 19412

OAL Execeptias by indicating on.the time card. | suited

think it would be the same oir both cards. é

“The Master: Well, you don’t know whether Wells

Clay, or any other cmployec in the department, on any

given day during thi¢ period stopped at any point to talk

_with any other work man. or just what they said on arly

given morning, or how fast they walked from punching

the time clock to the place where they started their. pro-

duction work in your department. do you? —

A. As right to the exact time. within the minute; I pos-

sibly couldn’t tell, no.

Q. (By Mr. Lamb) Weil: within five minutes, how

can you tell? os

A. Weill, 4d am there in the department, I can tell what

‘s the practice. |

_ Q. 1 am asking: + you whether you can tell us. op any

particular day as to any’ particular employee, how quickly

_or slow!y the emp!oyee went between the time clock and

the bench?

A. Well, if he rings in at-7 minutes before the time to

start, ‘T-eould <ay | know he: couldn’t get started at work

hefore the hour.

Q. Well. I am asking you whether, inreepeilive of time

clock eards, or anything— else, cain vou tell us how rapidly

an employee, a particular e:nployee, went to or from the

time clock to his bench on any particular. day?

A. As to how fast lhe went from the time clock to his

department, I couldn’t tell on any particular day, no.

Q. Or for any particular employee?

. A. Any particular: emplovee;- he might have run; I

' didn’t see him, or something like that, if that is.-what you

mean. '

The Master: If vou did see him, vou have siheibnilty

forgotten by now how he acted on one particular day?

1074 Carl L. Starner.

A. Yes, that is about it. *

Q. (By Mr. Lamb): Taking the earde of Wells Clay,

Exhibit 75-i, he checks his time clock card in meaty at

Oo:01, does he ner. ~ *

A: There is three out of five he checks + in at 5:51. |

Q. (By Mr. Lamb) Yes, and that -is true between

9:01 and we will ‘say 5:55 on his other cards, is it not,

75-J, Exhibit 75-K, Exhibit 75-L-.

The Master’ Do you want to know whether oan all ot

these cards in the morning he checks in between 5:51 and

2:09 when he tomes. in-im the morning, rather than the

afternoon shift? |

Mr. Lamb:. That is right.

The Master: Go, through the cards.

A: (Referring to cards) You say from 5:51, here is.

one he checks in—

The Master: 5:51 to 5:55. °

A. That is right, on that card.-That is not‘ true there.

(indicating).

The Master: On eahinit 74-K he checked i in one day at

6:08. ° -

A. That is right. , ;

Q. (By Mr. Lamb) And the other days—

The Master: The other davs he checked in within the

time limits indicated. :

Q. (By Mr. Lamb) - 75.L:

A. _ Between 5:51 and 5:55<-5 :52.

Q. 5:52. - ii. OO

A. Yes. al te |

-The Master: You aske to 5:55, he ean give the

blanket answer for a! of thear on that basis?

A. That is true also for .75-M. ‘

Thé Master: . It is also true of 75-N.

A. That is right.

@. (By Mr. Lamb) Then on Exhibit 75-O appear the

first two davs, that is Monday. and Tuesday, he —

at 6:18, does he not?

-* That is right.

pane

or ett . o cae y LATE

SIs

Carl L.. Starnes 1U75

. And on Exhibit 75-V,; on Monday, Tuesday, Wednes-

day and Thursday, at 6:18, trom 6:18 to 6:21, is that cor-.

rect?

A. For those four days.

Q. Yes.

A. For those four days, that is Ln

- &. ‘And all of the days on Exhibit 75-Q he appears at

_ 6:18, does he not.

The Master: No, 6:18—

Mr. Lamb: From 6:18 ‘to 6:22.

A. That is right.

Q. Did you advise him before those ‘days, which we

have had reference to to appear at 6:18 rather than 5:50%

Did you tell him of a different starting time,, that he

should have a different starting time?

A. Starfing regularly, that would indicate that he had

| been told.

; { Q By you? . ;

: A.. By me. ° - age’ :

Q. What?

A. That is the starting time would be—

Q. As indicated by fhe time cards?

A. Yes, as ‘indicated hy the time clock cards.

Q. What about—

starting time as indicated by the cards’’? What starting

. Mr. Nunneley ( Interposing) What do you mean, ‘‘The

time is indicated by the cards?

Mr. Lamb: -T am referring to Exhibit 75 and the let-

ters which we have used in the questions.

: Q. (By Mr. Lamb) You anderstand which time clock

: cards I’ was referring toe Exhibit 75, Clay. Wells?

-.« Mr. Nunneley:. Which one is that?

Q. (Continuing)’ And the time of 6:15 and 5 50—-

;

The Master: T think it is clear on the record, and. -

some of those vou; indicated on the record and gave the

number and 4etter, he started coming at around 6:18 to

. 6:20, 6:22: vou sav he was told before that, that the

starting | time was changed?

1076 J hp eee “—— L. Starnes

A. The starting time ‘as changed, It: wasn’t starting

at 6 o’clock at this particular time, no.

The, Master: What. was he told?

- A. As would indicate there, probably would be proved

by other cards in the same department in the same period. =

; Q (By Mr. Lamb) Other employees in the depart- z

Inent? — —

A. Probably would be indicated by them. ;

Q. 1 don’t thik’ asked you, Mr. Starner, to advise

us or explain to us what you meant by- these employees

changing any garments after they left the time clock and

began the physical operation ‘of ‘their job. Did you mean

to say that they took off their coats and hats and hung

them up some place?

A. I did not mention coats and hats.

Q. Coats and hats and so forth were put in. the cloak

_ room before they punched the time clock, isn’t: that cor-

‘poste... :

A. Yes, sir. t

Q. Do your activities only’ cover the clay shen, © or are

thére any other departments that you have any active

management of ?

A. Clay shop only.. ,

Q. Do you know of any employees working over the —

statutory period of 40 hours?

A. Have they ever worked over the statutory deci

Q. Yes.

A. Yes.. |

~ Q. On the company’s viilenetntben'

_A. They have worked over 40 hours, I believe.

Q. And over 42 nears. when that was the statutory

period?

‘A. There have. bila cases where they have.

* Q. Do you know of any particular employees who -

worked more thay thé statutory period in any particular

week without referring to the time clock cards?

A. I can’t say that I do.

Mr. Lamh: T think that is all. © °°

- -

Pea Ginna Wty Dandie taseel remy 0

Carl ss Starmer. .. hay,

' Re- Direct #samination |

By Mr. Nunneley

Q. Mr: Starner, you said that you couldn't ‘tell ‘toons

memory without aay reference to any records or anything |

' how long: any person worked on any given adh is that

correct? . a

A. That is right.

. By referring’ to these cards can you tell- whether.

the party worked before, or at, or after, the. established

starting time and stopping times, and so on, from your

‘experience ?

A. 1 ean, sir..

Q. That is based on what?

A. My experience and knowledge of the keey” ng of the ©

time on the cards. *:

Q. I will show’you Exhibit 75-O, being the time clock

card for Wells, Clay, for fhe pay ending June 4, 1940, and-

eal] your attention to the fact that on the Monday and

Tuesday of thé morning shift that is on the card it shows

that that mdn checked in at 6:18 ( handing exhibit to wit-

ness)? ° ;

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What would you say was tite starting time for him

that morning or those two mornings? * * *

A. 1 think I can say that: his starting time there at

that particular time he rang in would: be 6:30.

Q. And, I will show you Exhibit 75-P, being: the time

* clock card of Wells Clay for the period ending June 18th,

1940. I call your. attention to the fact that it indicates ,

that: on Monday of the morning shift week-he. checked in

at 6:18, and Tuesday at 6:21, and Wednesday at 6:19,

Thursday at 6:18. What would you say was his starting

time for those days? (Handing exhibit to witness).

A. The starting time were those days mentioned would

ve 6:30. ° -

Q. And when you stated al you could tell from the

s - ™

> ——

<_<

1078 © Carl L. Starner

_ time: clock card what the starting tiase was, ‘is that what

\ you meant, that you could: interpret that as the starting

fume in that way-?

As. .Could interpret that; that is exactly, right.

Mr.” — That is all.

ies _Re-Crogs “Examination

“as

ad Mr. Lamb: ie. oan :

m™ 2

Q. io I understand it, you. say that the starting time

on Exhibit 74-R, the- -stopping ime~on Tuesday whic

*. pears as 7 o ‘clock, what time: would‘you say that he actu-

ally stopped — work o that day,.o on i particu-:

lar.day? on |

A. You mean here? | ;

Q. Delbert Phillips, Exhibit: TAR, on the first Tuesday

it appears there that he reports in at 2:41 and stops at 7

~ atest What time would you say that he actually stopped

uction- work on the line that ‘he. was doing, actual

‘physical stoppage of his job?.

A. It would be seven minutes Before 1 0 clock because ©

he couldn’t possibly ring out. before the same time” he

would stop production. ~

’Q. How many minutes before? You got the exhibit

right in front of you now. Tell us when he stopped the

physical job that—physical work on the job he was per-.

- formi

A. It could have -been seven nlanien it are have

-- been ten minutes. ® 4

Q. And do you know when the eompany computed his -

aa time as the time he ——

A. 70 ’clock.

Q.. 77

A. That is right.

-Q. Do you want to. compute that time and tell us how

many, hours he worked on that day? I will read into the

record the fact he reported in at 2:31, out at 7, back from

lunch at 7 ‘8, ‘and out at 10: lt. The company computed

pine Faorven on that day, didn’t you?

'.. Ta."

a start work immediately. after arrival at the job, te

-what he did that = tiles yourself to -say he didn’t do

* tad t.. Sharne , logy

it from 7 o'clock, and you compute the time that the.com-

pany gave him credit for? .

A. 6% hours as per on the card.

Q. The company has given him éredit Tor. om hours on

that day?, AS

A. ‘That is right. a , .

Q. Now, what time did te report in on the plivsical job *

that was assigned to him on that morning | if he reported

in at 2:31? What time did he get on the, physical act of

performing the production’ work?

' A. 2:45.

"Q: 2:45. You mean that it are him 14 minutes that

— to go from the time clock to the physical job to which

he was assigned? .

-A. You said‘time comple ted, time he ne started

A. DidI misusideratand you?

Q. 1 am asking.you what time he went to the |

job. of production when he reported in on that mo

2:319 : '

A. You mean What time he arriv ed at the job?

: 4 ee

A. At the bench?

4 Yes. ;

A. Well, he could:have arrived their at 2 :36,

( You say that he worked on that particular

fore 2:45 on production?

A. 1 would ‘say He didn’t.

-Q. You will say he didn’t. Will you tell us what he

“did in that 14 minutes that qualifies you to say he Qidn’t

: aa

the work?

A. Well, before he can go to work on, that particular |

job he has first got to get readv to go to work..

Q. To-wit? What did he do between 2:31 that day on.

.. Tuesday for the period ending July 13, 1940, being Ex-

hibit 74 R., tell us = he did on that dav? | ° 4

‘

, "

1080" : oe Carl A. Starner

. -

A. I-can't tell rn all that hé did, but 1 iden

Q. (Interposing) Can you tell us he did anything?

A. He would have to do— - ’

« Q. (Interposing) Tell us what he did between what

you say is 2:36 and 2:45, tell us what he did that day. ©

A. * Well, he—

Q. (Interpoging) Not : ohn he may have done, you

have ‘said he didn’t Ro to work that day, I am doses ou

what he did. ;

A. He would have Yo take off his shirt ‘ol t on his

apron.

.Q. Did you see him take off his shirt and put on his

apron that day? |

A. Well, I never seen him week without an apron:

‘Q. . Did you see him put on a shirt that day—

_ The Master: Take off a shirt you mean? \j ‘

-Q. (By Mr. Lamb) Or take off a shirt, whatever you

are ascribing to it, did you see him do that? What ‘color

"shirt did he have on?

The Master: Let him answer ‘his first.

A. I couldn’t say I seen him take off a shirt, but it is

the practice to take off his shirt.

Q. I am asking you a specific question now, Mr. Star-

Der, what he did between 2:31 and 2:45 that day; he didn’t

go to work until 2:45, what was he doing after e punched

that time clock car ‘and you say it took”him possibly up

to 2:36 to get to his bench on the job; what did he do be-

tween 2:36 and 2:45 that day? ~-

A. He wouldn’t work without an apron, he would have

te put the apron on,-wouldn’t he? +

Q. What did he do that day? ,

A. Before he starts to work, is that?

Q.. That is right, before you gave him credit for start: .

ing work?

A. Puts on his apron, takes off his shirt, gets his, tools

ready to go to work, the scrappers, has to turn—

-Q. (Interposing) You saw him do all that?

The Master: Just a minute, let him answer the ques-

tion first. w See

i. Carl L. Starner OS] °°

. i

A. He has to turh on his mangle and get his heat, and

then he has to make sure he has a crew, to work with be-

fore he can.go to work. s

-~Q “TBy Mr. h) All of that todk exactly 14 min-

’ utes, is that corr at day? er

A. I couldn’t say— ye

Q. (Interposing) Between 2:31 and 2235, it took ex.

_actly 14 minutes, is that correct? oO

Mr. Nunneley: Let the witnegs answer. ie

The Master: Let him answer.

A. I couldn’t say it took him exactly 14 miputes, .

Q. Aren't you saying he started to work at 2:45, isn’t

that your testimony?

Mr. Cooper: He said ‘‘not before.”’”

A. I said ‘‘not before 2:45.” ‘

Q... (By Mr. Lamh) 0. K., so it took him 14 minutes

that day*to go from the time clock card, go through. all

these operations thgt you say of putting on a shirt and —

tdking off. a shirt, or walking from the time clock over ~

to his bench, that took him 14 minutes, is that correct?

The Master: In the operations he has enumerated, in

other words? ‘

Mr. Lamb: Yes, is that correct?

.A. Well, you are pinning me. down right to the bal

ute. I have stated before that he, could have started hal

. a minute before, and I wouldn’t question that.

Q.. (By Mr. Lamb) Oh, half a minute.

“A. He cou!d have. -

. Q. These operations .took between 134% minutes and

14 minutes, is that correct? at >i ,

A. Well, this operation would take—by my own ex.

perience, if I bring in—

Q. (Interposing) I,am asking you now this particu-

lar day. . ;

A. I will tell you exactly how they do that, ring in,

:say— ‘ i h © ‘

. Q. (By Mr. Lamb) This a . “i

A. All right. ; ;

Q. We are. talking about Tuesday, the first Tuesday

listed on the card of 74-R? ' ta a ;

1US2 ; Carl L. Starner

The Master: It is obvious he doesn’t. recollect exactly.

what .happened on that day. tee

Mr. Lamb: If he will say he doesn’t recollect, O. °K.

Mr. Nunneley: The witness -has. repeatedly said he

couldn’t tell you what ‘happened that day. :

- The Master: He says he can only tell from, his gen-

eral experience what he did. ~- *

Q.* (By Mr. Lamb) Didn’t you say he started’ work

at 2:45 that day?~ | ,

A. I said that. ho ae are +4

» QT thought you did.,-Now, the day before he* started

work, or he punched the time clock at 2:35, and what time

did the company give him:credit for working, reporting in |

to work that’morning, 2:45 again?

A. 2:45.

Q. Now, do *you know anything that he didn’t do on’

the day that he.was credited with working at 2:45 on

Monday that_he did on Tuesday that took him the éxtra

4 minutes? :

The Master: . You mean based on actual. récollection?,

Mr. Lamb:. Of course. . cs .

The Master: . Or based upon, inference from.his ex-

perience ?. ; bate -

Mr. Lamb: Or based on the cards. “es la

A. I am interpreting the card by: my own observa-

tion. I can’t say T seen him do anything that particular.

morning. _ . , PF ee

Q. Can you tell me whether there was anything dis-

tinguished the Monday from the Tuesday when he re- .

ported in at 2:35 on Monday and 2:31'or Tuesday, that

you should have given him a starting time as of the

following quarter hour each day? Was.there any physical

.act that he didn’t do one day that he did‘on the other?

The Master: I think you will have to state whether

you mean based on actual recollection or whether yon

mean based upon observation and gerieral experience?

Mr. Lamb: Let him answer it any way he can:

The Master: -O, K., then.

. *

Ea ea ee

Car L. Starner - — 1083

ee | .

Mr. Lamb: What this particular employee did is what

‘ the question is, and ‘not, what he may. have done in his

‘expérience twenty years’ ago.

The Master: In other words, what you want to know

is if he has any actual, definite recollection what that

muployee did on the afternogn he started to work or

_ punched-in at 2:31, that he didn’t do when he punched. in

at 2:35, and nof based upon-an inference from experience.

‘ Do.you have any definite recollection, sitting on the stand

there, what he did or didn’t do that day?

A. I have no recollection of that, no. s

°Q. (By Mr. Lamb) Can I ask you, Mr. * Starner,’

whether you are able to advise us that, irrespective of

which end pf your department an employee is in or ir-

respective 6f the bench to which he might be assigned or

its location, or irrespective of what hour of the day he

comes in, whether that employee is not credited on the

company’s computation, as a company policy, with hav- |

ing worked from the succeeding quarter hour period? Do:

I: correctly state the company policy? — |

The Mastér: Read the question back.

A. I don’t know if T have got that all clear. :

_ {Question read.) I oe

_ A. We couldn’t constantly tell the people who com-

"putes the time on these cards that a. fellow is working at

the one end of the department or the other and compute

them -accordingly. There has to be a general computation

of these cards. _ . ee

Q. .(By Mr. Lamb) Now can you answer the ques-

_ tion? What is the company’s policy. wjth respect to credit-

ing people with time worked froin the subsequent quarter

hour period? Isn’t that the company policy

A. If IT understand the question: correctly, it is. -

Q. And isn’t it a company policy that gvhen a man

checks out, that he is credited with having worked from

the preceding quarter hour? © :

- The Master: Or to the preceding quarter hour.

Mr. Lamb: .Yes, to the preceding quarter hour.

1084 . > Carl L. Starner

’ A. To the preceding quarter hour, that is right.

‘Q. ‘That is true irrespective of the distance from a

time clock or irrespective of the bench location on which

an employee might be working,. or irrespective of any

other factor? When an employee reports in, he is paid

and his time is computed to the succeeding quarter hour,

and when he'checks out his tig is computed from the

‘ succeeding quarter hour. ,

The Master: I think you have the ‘*from”’ and . ol

turned around.

A. Yes, turned around. .

The Master: You mean his time is competed from the

succeeding. quarter hour when he checks in, and to the

preceding quarter hour when he checks out?

A. That is right. ; :

Mr. Lamb: . Yes, that is right. _

Q. Is that correct? cmc 2 4

A. That is correct. -

‘Q. That is the company policy?

A. That-is right. ‘

Q. Irrespective of whether the employee is located?

A. And: that is applying to the employees in our de.

partment we are speaking of.

Q: You are speaking of the employees—in all your

testimony, you want it to apply only to the employees in

- the clay shop?

vision.

Mr. Lamh: ©. K., that is all.

ee Re-Direct Examination

By Mr. Nunneley:

Q. And likewise that is a poljcy irrespective of whether -

he actually starts:to workton that succeeding quarter hour

or not? :

A. That is right. He may not. get started.

Q. And likewise his stopping time, if he actually

stapped before, if he doesn’t punch out until after a cer-

A. Only the employees over which I have direct super-

en Carl L. Starmere 10S.

tain quarter hour, lie is credited to it in auring the

time! ; ;

A. ‘That is exactly so.

‘The Master:.. You’ have some hourly workers in your

departinent over there, | believe?

y. (By Mr. Nunneley) ‘Are there any hourly workers

-in your department?

The Master: Employees that work on a straight hourly

basis. R nae

AL. We don't— .

The Master.(Interposing) Or i think M& Fittongsaid

so yesterday. — ‘\

Mr. Nunneley: Men who: run the oy TY :

A. The fellows running the machines,*yes, they are

‘hourly workers; fellows running the automatic machines.

The. Master: Do-you see to, it that they work right

up to the last minute that the shift goes in? - ‘:

? aA. Do I see to tt that they do?

The Master: Yes.

A. Quite often we yop as much as ten’ minutes before

the time allotted for us to quit. 7

Re Cross E camination .

' By Mr. Lamb:

, P

Q. Do you know the names Qi number of hourly em-

ployees in your department? sles iles . ”

A. I couldn’t from that period give you the, names, no.

Q. (By Mr. Lamb) Of any of them for 1941?

’

A. I don’t believe I could.

Q. For1940? #3. . :

. A. I couldn't absolutely give you the names of them.

°Q. Have. they changed, you mean? weds

. We hayen’t had the same fellows on that machine

all the time. 2

The Master: Have you changed all of the men so that

nere of the men working in April, 1941, are now working

on the machine, if you can recall? = :

A. Tt seems to me we have changed them all. eal

L086 Charles BE. Doll

Mr. Cooper: Your Honor wiJl recall that our: cross-

examination of Mr. Charles E. Doll, Sr., was suspended

at the earlier hearings until such time as the plaintiff

' ‘Rested their case, and we would like to recall Mr. Charles

EK. Doll, Sr., at this time for the purpose of cross-examina-

tion. .

CHARLES E. DOLL, was thereupon recalled as a wit.

, ness, and having been previcusiy duly sworn, testified .

Turther as follows: .

Cross Examination 7

By Mr. Cooper:

Q. You are the general-manager of the Mt. Clemens

; Pottery Company, | believe, Mr.

_ A. I am. |

. Q. How long have you had that capacity?

Mr. Lamb: Do I understand that you say ‘yoy are

calling him for’ cross-examination? ae,

Mr. Cooper: Yes.

Mr. Lamb: I make an objection to it being crogs-

examination.* °° | aa :

The Master: 1 don't think I will rule on it until such

time as a leading questicn is asked which would be ob-

jectionable, and if it gets to be an issue then 1 will decide

it at that time, but I won't decide it at the present time

because I. don’t know whether there will be ‘any occasion

to decide the question. : ce

. Q. (By Mr. Cooper) How long .have you been gen- —

_ eral-manager of the Mt. Clemens Pottery Company, Mr.

Doll? °*

A. 28 years. ,

* " Q. You have been general-manager ever since the or- .

ganization of that company? —

A. Yes, sir, I built the original plant and have had

complete charge of it ever since. : ,

- ; ¢

® _

’ oe aa 7

a” . .

. ¢ - - 4

° . $

' ° - *

Q. Do you spend a consideravie amount of time out in

the plant? . , ; es j

“A. More of my time is spent on the plant than it is

in the office.’ |

Q. And are you familiar with the, various departments

of the plant, and what operations are performed in each

department?

2 Seay

Q. I would like to request you, sir, with reference to.

Exhibit 20-A, to explain to the court the various ‘depart-

ments invoived in the plant, and what is done in each de-

rr : :

A. Exhibit 30-A is a ground plan ‘of the plant. It

shows on the south side a railroad siding over which our

the sectian of the plant specified as ‘‘Clay Bins.”’ The

materials are not’ all el:ys, but nevertheless for general

‘purpose the storing arca of these raw materials is desig-

nated as the ‘Clay Bins."* |

~ At this partienlar point the materials are made up in

pre-determined composition, fed into the plunger mills in

the slip house where they are mixed with water, and

after varying processes in the®slip house they are pumped

through the filter presses into a plastic form.”

These plasti« forms are afterwards further processed

through pug mills.which p!aces the mixture in a putty-

‘PkeJeondition to enable it to be formed on the molds.

This ‘clav is then transported to the various clay-form-

ing machines, some of whieh are—

_Q. (Interposing) Excuse me, Mr. Doll. I would like

to ask whether or not the operations you have described

Charles. E. Doll," 1us7 *

raw materials come in in leaded ears and are placed at’

-up to this point are all performed in what is referred to_

‘as the slip. house or slip department?

~A. They’ are. When the clay leaves the slip depart-

ment it

ing it on the molds. Jt goes then to the section of the

plant &enerally designated as ‘‘clay shop.” and, in that

area it 18 used on what we generally designate still at

this time as hand-operated jiggers. They are really power

_ machines, but they are operated by a crew of three people,

‘s-in.the form.t4 be used in applying it and form- -

® > 6

. '

1088 . Charles BE. Doll

consisting of a jigger man, batter-out and finisher. The

jigger man—the batter-out, rather, forms, places the clay

on the mold, passes it to the jigger man who in turn jig-

gers it or revolves it in a machine under a tool which

forms a piece of ware by the face of the mold forming.

the face of the ‘article and the tool under which it is re.

volving shaping the hack. _ 2 ae

{t then passes through the mangle which is. simply a

series of shelves operated.on chain conveyors which pass

through the mangle, circulating among steam’ coils, or in

other sections ‘circulating through .a hot-air duct, the

intent being that when the product reaches tye other end .

. Of the mangle it is sufficiently dried and hardened to be

lifted from the mold by the finisher without being dis.

torted. It is then the finisher’s job to smooth “off the

rough edges and sponge off. the face of the ware, remove

any slight imperfections that may have occurred in the

processing. .

‘Q. Could you tell:me; Mr. Doll, about how long that,

or those operations that vou have déscribed, consumes?

_ A. It will'take, according to.the size and the shape of '

the article, from an hour to an hour and a half in going

through under the machines. We have at other ‘places .

‘very large units which we caJ] automatic. jiggering ma-’

. chines, in which these same operations are done auto-

matically by these machines. This is a later development,

and at the present time.the plant is operating under

- some of both processes. «= '

In the large~machines the principles involved are ex:

actly the same, although the operations are automatically .

done, except in the case T just described, by being per-*_;

. formed by hand labor. ae

After this ware has gone through: the finishing process

it is then ready to be taken to the loading stations to be.

put into saggers -and loaded on the cars for tre first-

burning... / ° . oa

_Q. Is that at the point on the exhibit indicated ‘*bisque

ear loading?”’ . ; |

A. No, it is taken to the section marked ‘‘bisque car °

. <2

Charles B. Doll LOS)

filling.” At that point the ware is taken from the trucks,

. put into saggers, and circulates then on these saggers—

the saggers circulate on belt conveyors to the bisque car-

loading position where the saggers are stacked onto cars

“preparatory to going into the kiln for the first burning.

4). Is that what is referred to as bisque belt. system, or

isn't there sueh a thing? , ; ar

A. Generally speaking, thé bisque sagger filling and_

the bisque car loading and unloading is the bisqué car

system. eerae ries Aas

().. Is that separate from the glost belt system?

A. That is an entirely, Separate installation and in a

separate part of the plant. In the. west end of the plant

there is also the section known as mold room devoted to

the making of the plaster paris-molds on which the ware

is formed in the clay, department. Ti.

These molds are constantly wearing out and deteriorat-

ing and have to be replaced‘at frequent intervals.

Also in the west end of the clay department there is the

casting department, That is a’ department in which we

wanufacture such articles as cream pitchers, sugar bowls, |

arkl items of. that type. wherein the ware is formed in

plaster molds, hut the material is put into the molds in

a liquid state, is poured into these hollow molds in a liquid

state, and is _atfowed to stand a certain length of time

during which period the solid material—the Ijquid, ma-

terial next to the mold hardens through the plastic mold

putting the water out of the clay and solidifies there so

that after it is hardened to the pre-determined thickness

the mold is inverted, the surplus material is poured, out-

side and the article is.alfowed to further dry in the mold

before being taken out, and fina!ly when: it is taken out

it has to be finished bv finishers a that department who,

in turn, finish the edges and smooth up any defects. After |

the wear has been loaded on the bisque cars it goes to the

west end of:the bisque kilns. which is the entrance end of ©

the bisque kilns or the charging end as we designate it.

Q. Mr. Doll, is the term ‘‘bisque’’ applicable to the

ware from the moment it leaves the clay shop, or doesn’t

LOnO Charles BE. Doll

it reach the bisque he until after it bas -been through

thé kiln? | . \ |

A. It is not technically bisque ware until it has gone

through the burning stage. However, they are known as

the bisque kilns because that is the name of the product

as it leaves the’ kilns, simply a designaticn of. the first

burning. The cars are put in at intervals through these — ~

\\kilns. The speeds can be ‘controlled, but of. course you

don’t keep changing a!! the time. That involves quite

‘some firing problems, but they’ can be run at varying

speods over periods cf time.

Q. \Approximately how-much time is consumed in put. =

ting car of ware through the bisque kiln?

A. Well, average time in going through the bisque kiln

in ‘the average production would represent about 48

hours from the time the car enters the kiln until it comes

out. . ar .

The Master: Do you have just one jong kiln with grad-

ually increasing ‘and later decreasing temperature, or do

you have a series of them?

A. No, our type of kilns, as indicated on thé drawing,

represents an area in which, starting from-the west end,

the’ cars pass through a gradual heating-up zone. That

heating-up zone extends about two-fifths the length of the .

kiln. After. getting through the— aoe

The Master (Interposing) You have. indicated -on the

map a distance of about six inches along one of . these

kilns,.which, according to the seale-of the map would be

ahout 120 feet for that stage? .-

A Approximately that. And then the cars enter the

furnace zone. The irregular shape of the ground plan of

the kilns in the second section shows abutting parts of |

the brickwork: which represent the furnaces. Each one of

those represents a furnace or a place at which there is an

oil burner generating heat in a furnace, which is in turn

circulating through the kiln into the pre-heating zone.

The products are drawn up through a main tunnel by

means of draft fans which are on the west end of the

kilns. _— f :

. harles KB. Doll ra Lined

The Master: But the temperature is greatest imme-

diately adjacent to the furnaces? Vena es

A. The heat cycle shows a steadily mounting curve un-

til we leave the last furnace. Then‘it is a decreasing curve

from that tinie till the ware comes out. If thesescars in

coming out were just allowed to cool naturally, they would

come out at such excessive temperatures that you.couldn’t:

handle them and that the ware would be broken through

the shock. ° ;

So at the east end of the kilns we have fans that are

blowing quite a large quantity of room air into the. kilns

which passes straight through them and. serves as a cool-

ing. medium for the cars as they are approaching the dis-

charge end. , ek pol Me enn

Q. (By Mr Cooper) Is that operation handled, en-

tirely by miachinery, or are there firemen or some ‘such

work classification at work at-that kiln?

- A. Well, the cars are moved along the ‘tracks—there

are miles of kiln ear tracks both inside and outside of the

kilns. The cars on the tracks outside of the kilns are’

moved in either direction by means of chain conveyors

that are underneath thé cars, and in going through the

kilns, they are pushed through the kilns from the charging

end by means of hydraulic pushers, the temperature be-

ing such that you couldn*t .use any mechanical device

through’ the kilns. So‘that the train is pushed through by

hydraulic pushers, pushing against the-whole train of ©

ais: -

Q. Do the kiln firemen work at the point indicated on

the exhibit as the bisque kilns, or is’ the work place of the —

kiln firemen elsewhere? ~~~ ‘Be |

_A. © The kiln firemen—their duties require them to keep -

circulating during the time thet they are on ‘the job,

keep circulating up and down the aisles hetween and on

either side of the kilns, watehing the individual furnaces,

_watching.their. instrument panels and keeping a general

oversight as to just what is happening both inside and

outside the kilns. . ee

Q. How many hours a day arg kiln firemen on the job?

1002 | . Charles E. Doll

A. The kiln firemen work on eight-hour shifts 24 tienes. ’

-a.day. Of course, the kilns are in a 365. days a

year.

| Q. Have you ever had occasion to be. out in the plant

- and observe the changing of shi{ts among: the kiln firemen, .

Mr. Doll? : |

_.A. Yes, I see them daily.

Q. Could you tell the Court what icine when | one

shift succeeds another?

A. . Well, for .instance, if one shift is finishing up at

. three o ‘clock i in the afternoon the men on the other’ shift

arrive at whatever time they may desire previous to the

time the other-man is stoppiag his work, and you will in-

variably sée them during that time engaging in .conversa-

tion as between the:man who is just coming on and the

man-who is leaving his work. That conversation may be

‘ something-of a private nature or it may be with regard to

-how the kilns are operating and: how things have been

voing,: and what the schedu'es call for the work to be

- done.

The Master: Tees the new shift of firemen coming on.

' proceed to a particular place’ along the line of the bisque. ~

kilns?

‘ A. Your Honor, what you might say headquarters for

change of*shift is the instrument desk at one or other of .

the’ kilns. There is no rule regarding ‘that. That is -for

the firemen to‘determiné’ between Ahemselves. Each kiln

has quite an ‘elaborate systeni of: controlling .instruments

on it. These’kilns are oi!-fired. The temperatures are auto-—

matically controlled by instruments set to produce a cer- . °

‘tain temperature which the instruments do by automati-

cally controling the flow of the oil, and those desks—

‘The Master (Interposing) Mr. Lamb has t6 go now.

Let me ask this question out of curiosity, how high does

the temperatures run at the highest of these kilns?

A. The ae kilns go to se 120 degrees Fahren- .

heit.

The aia. We will RP ang at this time’ unless you

had one sentence. to conclude. y

A. No. eee

Charles BE. Deii | 1093

June 18, 1942

By Mr. Cooper: .

(). 1 think, Mr. Doll, when court adjourned yesterday’

you were describing. the operations in the bisque kilns,

and the function of the kiln firemen. Would* you please

continue the description of the operations in that depart-

ment? « ee ,

A. I think I mentioned the fact that the kiln firemen

and the. attendants on the kilns, while they circulate

around the kilns themselves in taking care of their. duties,

that their main headquarters are generally at. the instru-

~ ment panel.boards at which there is a desk on each kiln.

There is one. attendant and one fireman in charge of

‘each battery of kilns on an 8-hour shift, and these par-

.tieular attendants, the fireman and the pusherman, as we

call him, continue in charge completely in: their particular

shift until’ the expiration of the time of their shift. when *

the next crew takes hold. They are not relieved of their

duties until their stopping time has come to an end, and

the starting time of the next shift takes hold. That is true

of all of the kilns. After the cars leave the east end

of the bisque kilns— ¢ : :

Q. (Interposing) Pardon me. If I. remember cor-

rectly, you said yesterday that it took an average of about

48 hours for a car to go through the bisque kilns?

A. That is correct. After thé cars come out of the

bisque kilns on the east end, they are put over on the

- unloading—they are either put: into’ storage or on the

unloading line. The unloading line of the bisque belt sys-

~ tem is the east end of the conveyor system that is marked

on the plan as ‘‘bisque sagger filling.” . :

At thet. point the saggers are taken off the cars,’ the

ware is taken out of th: saggers, the saggers flow back

‘on the belts to the bisque sagger filling station, and the

process begins over again of filling the saggers and load-

ing them for the bisque kilns.

*v\

: 104 i a Chavle “ i. diol > :

The ware that is taken out of the saggers at the bisque

unloading station goes to the section of thé plant shown’

on the plan as a dipping department. This is a combina-~

tion department in which both the brushing and the gip-

ping or glazing are done.

The Master: Pardon me. What is the appearance ‘of

the ware after it comes out of the bisque kilns? Is it hard

by rough and finish? ; er

A. That is correct. The bisque ware hasits complete

fired strength, but it has an unglazed surface, and-it*is

porous, partly porous.

As this ware comes through from the bisque kilns, it

frequently has little rough clay particles or portions of

sand, things. of that kind, on it. And, before the glaze can

be applied, it‘has to be brushed.

Part of this brushing is done by hand brushes and part

of it is done by passing the ware throngh machine op-

erated brushes which clean the particles off, and this work

is done by people known as brushers.

After it has been brushed, it goes to the dippers, hand

dippers or the glazing machines.

In duys gone by, all this ware was dipped by. hand;

. that is, each piece individual'y was held by. the dipper

and immersed. into » tub of liquid glaze. However, that

process has been largely done away with. There is very

little hand dipping done now, and the majority of the ware

goes to glazing machines. |

‘When it is placed in these glazing. machines, which con-

. sist primarily of large circular tables on which the pieces ©

of ware revolve on power-operated spindles, and as this

table revolves, these turning spindles pass through booths

in which there are spray guns that are spraying by means

of air pressure the glaze on to beth the face and the ‘back

of the pieces of ware. |

As the ware comes through this glazing’ operation in

the dipping department, it moves to the north to the

area marked on the plan as the glost sagger fillers. At

that point—_ Phe .

’

> in.

# e >»

. :

‘ , Charl s kK. fio ‘ ph

Mr. Cooper: Pardon me. Will you mark this, please?

(A floor pla was thereupon marked Defendant's

Exhibit 76, by the reporter.) -

- Q (By Mr. Cooper) I show you, Mr. Doll, a docu-

ment which has been’ marked for identification as Ex-

hibit 76 and ask you if you can identify it (handing ex-

hibit to witness)?

A. This is a-floor-plan of the glost loading and un.

loading system showing its connections as well into the

glost ware rooms with the chipping and selecting belts

of that department. - ?

- Q. Does it show, in general, the same outline as to the’

glost svstem as appears on Exhibit 30-A, except fpr

greater detail? ~

- A. Well, the detai! shown on Exhibit 76 is equipment

that is installed in the areg on the master plan shown as

the lost car loading, glost car fillers-——

- The Master: Glost sagger. fillers.

A. Glost sagger fillers, glost unloading. ;

Mr. Lamb: The master plan you are referring to~

is Exhibit 30-A. I guess the record can. show that.

The Master; Yes. Aare oe

A. And chippers and selectors. ;

Q. (By Mr. Cooper) Can yor say, Mr. Doll, whether

“or not Exhibit .76 is an accurate and sealed drawing of

the area you have just described? * ° ° , |

A. °T can so identify it}afdl can, identify the equip

ment because I designed and built it. °-* °

The Master: I think I will admit the exhibit. I don't

think this witriess fs competent. to testify that it is a

scaled drawing, because I think only the man that drew

it td\ scale can. testify. to that, but as to the general: lo-

cation and features of the equipment shown here, he

is competent to testify to that. ° ° °.

Mr. Lamb: And the record shows an objection to the

* admission?

The Master: All right, I think it already does, but

it does now.

[One : ee | 4 ‘harles EB, Doll

A. Referring to Exhibit Na. 76 as another example’

“of deseribing the-process when we arrive at the glost

sagger fillers, this particular drawing shows that *thére

is a conveyor on the outside’ of gihe drawirig on which

the saggers, the ¢mpty saggers are flowing on a con:

veyor belt. There is an area just to the north of this par-

ticular conveyor belt where there dre a series of sagger- —

filling stations indicated on the drawing by the diagonal.

paral..! lines, each of which represents a station in which

a girl stands, and as these saggers are deflected from

the conveyor belt into their loading stations, the girls

proceed to fill the ware into the saggers from shelves

byilt in their stations into’ which the ware has-been placed

by,men who take it from the trucks as it came from thé

dipping’ department and put it into the stations as the

girls need it. 7

As each girl fills her sagger she discharges it on to

t@ next parallel conveyor belt to the north. The. saggers

then flow to the west of that particular conveyor belt

where they make a turn on a circular’ belt at the west —

end and start to flow in an easterly di

sagger-| ng conveyor belt. ,

As they flow down this belt the man whose duty it is

rection on. the

to lead the saggers on to the cars; takes them off of |

this belt as they flow by and stacks them on to the cars

which are slowly moving forward on ‘what is shown as

the Noading track. . ie

As each sagger is removed from the belt to go on the

ears th t' continues in an easterly direction to a sec-

tion known as the unloading track, where men, in turn,

‘take the saggers off of the cars.that have been fired and

place them on to this:same conveyor belt. They continue

to flow in an easterly direction, then turn south, and ~

again west, and at the point. where the saggers tufn

west we have the sagger-unloading point. Ae ie

The saggers continue to flow by; the ware that is’ in .

them is taken out by men and boys and placed on another’

conveyor belt running west. This conveyor belt carries the-

2 . e e i. ” .

a ‘+ e s .

« ‘i 7% . . ee

tae € Ad . >

°. “3 e

. . o :

G A . odes

‘ ® .

: a ~— a

. * ‘

< ©

q.* ’ ; liharles ko Loll Lay -

ware into the gost ware room, or, as shown on master

plan number- - oer

The Master: Exhibit 30-A. 0 - a: .

A. —-Exhibit 30-A, it flows into the section shown as

chipping and selectors. At that particular . point two

funetions are performed. ‘On the backs of each piece of

ware are three little marks which have occurred there

dup ‘to the fact that when the ware is being fired in its

second or glost lurning, you have.to ‘keep each piece

separate and dis‘inct from the -others, .ofherwise Tey

‘would all. flux together, and they are supported in the

‘ saggers on-some little clay pins. These little clay pins

eave small marks on the back which have to be chipped

off by the ¢hippers. At the same time all pieces do not

come through perfect snd the ware has to be graded and

separated into the first quality and the imperfections.

The Master: What percentage of imperfections do you

- get of ware, generally?) | ‘ ee bi

A. Well, of course, you can make or lose @ great deal

of profi’ off of the amount ‘of imperfections that you

have. That is one of the probfems of the -business, * to

keep down the imperfections. We try to-.operate at an

average of not over ten per cent of imperféctions. ;,

After the ware—-referring again to Exhibit 76—after

‘the ware in the saggers has been placed on the loading

track. the ears containing this’ware moved in a westerly

direction to.the transfer track, und when they go on the,

transfer track they are moved over to an area north ‘of

the glost loading system and in between the bisque kilns

-and the glost kilns.. This area consists of .a. series of |

parallel. tracks: upon, which cars .are stored waiting fo

he placed into the -g’dst kilns for. firing. ance

The ears then are placed at intervals into the glost

-kilns generally on an average schedule of about one car

‘every 40 minutes. The cars and their, product go through

a stage of gradual heating up at the west end of the kilns,

then throngh the fire zone in the center of the kilns and

then through a gradual cooling zone on the east end.

. © o

® .

; 1008 7 ; Charlies Be Doll

When they come out on the east end they are then

placed on the unlugding tracks and are placed on the

‘glost unloading area as previously descr ibed.

‘The Master: . Is the panpece of these glost kilns _to

| heat the glaze?’ -

A. The function ‘is entire sly to burn the glaze, ee

it into a glaze. , ; ie

Mr. Lamb: [low big are the cars that move “into. .

the heat treatment?

A. The @ars are about 7 by 5 in i and width, and

they stand pom 30 inches off the floer, which gives us’

a loading area above the bed of the car of about 6 feet

in height.

Mr. Lamb: Is the ware stac ‘ked on the > ‘ears when it

goes into the kiln?

- A. The ware is in the saggers, Sand the none are

stacked: on the car, one above the other.

Mr. Lamb: I see. ~

A. After-the ware has gone through thi chipping and

selecting process, it is then ready to go either. direct

to the packing department if it is going: to, be shipped

out as undecorated ware; or if it is going to have a dec-

oration applied, it is ready to go to the decorating neta

ment.

If the ware is to be shipped , vut ‘undecorated, it -is

trucked across—it leaves the main building and is trucked

across the south siding and into the’ packing building,

which is also a storage building for packed goods, which

is a. separate building located on the south side of the

south siding. The ware is packed in cartons in that build-

ing, stored in that building if it is not intended for im-

mediate shipment; or placed in stock piles from which

orders are filled which are loaded by conveyors directly |

into box cars that are placed on a siding between the

main building and the packing storage building.

‘ And the ware that goes into the decorating depart-

ment flows into the area shown on the master plan—what

did-von say it wast

( Lark Ss KE. Doil i wd

The’Master: Exhibit 30-A. : igus

A, Exhibit 30-A, as decorating. Now, im this depart-

ment we have decorators engaged primarily in two opera-.

tions, one the application of decaleomania to, the. ware,

which in our particular case is mainly’ floral decorations

of some kind “or another.

Mr. Cooper: is Exhibit 60 an example of decalcomania.

used in deeoratime. the ware.

Mr. Cooper: Would you please mark this next exhibit?

- (A sheet of decalcomanias was then marked Ex-

hibit 77.) -¢

fe connection with the work in the decaleomania

nt of the decorating department, Mr. Doll, can you de-

scribe the operations connected: with the large transfer

sheets such as vou have here, and its application to a

particular piece of ware? —

A. Theseeshects of transfers or decaleomania, are lith-

ographed on duplex paper, what is known as duplex pa-

per. The duplex paper consists of a backing sheet of

fairly heavy paper and a very. thin. tissue sheet super-

imposed upon that. _ | an

_- The first part of the operation is for irls to strip

these sheets. That is, they separate the thin tissue sheet

‘som the backing-sheet, as vou can see here. That has

to be very carefully done, but you ean without damaging :

pull thi§ thin tissue sheet from the backing sheet.

After the girls separate and place together, one on top

of the other, a number of. these thin decaleomania sheets,

and then they ptoceed to cut them into sections or blocks,

as we call them. -similaf to what I have in my hand as

| Exhibit 77. oF

These Mocks consist of various sizes.of sprays, due to.

the fact that each particular article, that is, each size.

plate, or each cup or a certain kind of cup or a arti-

cular saucer has to. have a spray designed particalarly

to fit around the rim of that particular. article so that -

“they are cut/into blocks and given to them as they need

- 1100 ; Charles B. Doll

them for whatever partic ular article a girl may te work-

ing on at that time.

The operator has ware adjacent—the decalcomania

operator has ware adjacent to her bench, and the first

thing she does is to place a coat of size or varnish which

she applies with a brush to the parts of the article to be

decorated where the decalcomania isto be applied.

She lets this ware stand on her bench a sufficient length

of time for the varnish. to harden to a tacky stage, and

then she cuts out as she requires from these block prints |

'- the pieces that she needs immediately to decorate the

articles that she -has previously varnished. °

After placing these decalcomania sprays on the var-

nished area, the piece of ware, she takés another brush

which has been dipped in water, and rubs on the reverse

side of the paper so as to get the ‘decaleomania color

thoroughly adhering to the piece of ware.

-Q. Pardon me, sir. Do you refer now to Exhibit 77,

. the piece of paper?

A.- 77, yes. .

Q. Could you show which side is placed against the

piece of ware?

A. The lithograph or colored side is placed against

the piece of ware. After rubbing that decoration on

thoroughly she immerses the piece of ware into water, °

-floats' the paper off the back, and leaves the pattern in its

. color from, adhering to the ‘piece of ware. She places the

ware, then, on her rack behind her bench for drying, and

_ after that ware has set ‘a sufficient length of time to be

- safely dry it is ready to either go to the decorating kiln,

if no further: processing is to be applied to it, or if. there

are other parts of decorations to. be added, it goes to the

._ people doing that particular line of work, or the people

come to the -racks of decorative ware, and may—and in

the case of the pattern I am showing here, proceed ‘to

place a gold line on the edge of all the pieces that have

previously been decalcomaniaed.

The major: portion of our decorating is done by either

_the décalcomania process or by the application of gold~

Chart s Is. Doll 11d

and color, by people who apply it with brushes ‘for finish-

ing off the design of the finished decoration.

The ware then is trucked to the decorating kilns which

are shown in the north part of the decorating department

by the lines on the print showing the outline of the kilns,

and while they are much smaller, tliey are shown similar

tu what the bisque and glost kilns are.

-Q. On Exhibit 30-A, those decorating kilns are below.

the word ‘*glost”’ “ey nl???

A.. That is correct, below the glost aaalins system,

south of the glost unloading system.’

‘The ware goes into these kilns, is _placed’ on cars, goes

into these decorating kilns on the west end, comes out on

the east end. It is a short firing cycle through these kilns,

being about 8 hours, and after emerging from these kilns

it is again re and finally t: ruckag to the packing

department for packing into cartons.

’ The Master: These decaleomania sheef@, you don’t make

them in-vour plant; you buy them?.

“AL ONG: the decalcomania sheets are printed for us by

American Manufacturers. There are two parts of the gen-

eral floor plan, No, .30-A, which shows on the south side

of the trant the hoiler and engine room. Next to that the

sagger department in which the saggers are made for

Leth the bisque and the-glost cars. These saggers have

‘only limited fife. They deteriorate under the’ continuous

burning, and finally have to he destroyed and replaced.

The Master: What material are those made out of? -

A. They are made of a composition of fire clays tot

_ gether with a gronnd-un mixture of some of ‘the old sag-

gers. Woe are .able to: reclaim nart of the old saggers by

breaking them up and regrinding them and using a certain

pereentage of it in afresh mix.

Also next to the sagger department comes the head-

quarters or maintenance department. Next to that the

glaze room in which the materials are stored.that enter

into the ¢laze. These. materials are weighed into hatches

as needed and placed in the revolving pebble mills. These

mills consist. of revolving evlinders into which. the dry

«es

11% Charles BK. Doll

materials are- placed, water is added, and inside the mills

there is quite a quantity of flint pebbles. The grinding is-

done by the mills slowly revolving and the pebbles keep

falling over each other as the mills revolve, and in that

way the material that has been placed in the mills is -re-

duced ‘down to the necessary fineness. ae .

At the extreme east end of the plant there’is the office

building. In this office building is located one set of toilet

and cloak rooms for men and women, for factory use, and

on the second floor is a cafeteria. To the north of the

glost kiln departments are. another series of toilet and

cloak rooms for mien and women, and at tlie extrenie west

end of the plant is a section msrked on the plan as.

“‘court,’’ in which is located the sprinkler tower. The top

of this tower is the water tank. .

Q. I think you perhaps mentioned the boiler and en-

gine room, Mr. Doll? :

A. I did.

Q. And;can you state what’ operation is performed

hy the boiler man? ; . ,

A. In the boiler room we have thrge boilers. The func-

tion of our boilers is almost 100 per cent the supplying

of steam for drying and other minor operations around

the plant. ae: 3

. Next to the boilers is an engine room in which we have

a generator and a stand-by engine. The plant is operated

primarily with Edison current and we only operate the

engine room in case of extreme emergency or .breakdown

of the Edison power, in. which case our engine room could

supply enough current to keep the kilns in operation on a

temporary basis.

- During the° winter season and during the normal, the

five days operation of the plant, even in the sunimer, the

boilers are kept in operation on a 24-hour basis, with men

working on eight-hour shifts. Each one of: the boiler fire-

men is completely in charge of the boilers and held strictly

responsible for the boilers from his starting time until his

/ Stopping time, when the man following him takes over the

responsibility at his starting time.

( Jay (i s I. Doll . ] hi)

Q. By the way, sir, do those boilers operate with coal

or oil? ie

A. ‘The boilers are operated with coal. The kilns are ¢

tired -with oil, ; | ,

Q. 1 think you also mentioned yesterday, Mr. Doll, the-

job of the pressmen in the slip house. Could you state just

‘a little more specifically what the’pressmen’do? -

A. Well, both the charging of the mills for the slip

_ department and the operating of the filtering presses

through which this slip is pumped is customarily done on

‘a 24-hour basis. The pumps supplying the presses, of

_ course constantly pumping slips into the presses, and this |

slip that is being pumped into the presses has to be re-

placed with fresh material coming from the charge mills

into which the men are ‘supplying the material.

Q. Is that slip simply liquid clay? 5 AG

A. - That is a combination of the mixture of all mate-

rials with water. These men also operate on an eight-

hour shift basis. rs ; .

Q. How many shifis a-day, Mr. Doil?. ° ,

A. Three shifts a day. Atd each shift is working anff

responsible for and completely in charge of the duties of

that particular. shift until the next shift takes over.

Q. How many days a’week do they work there, Mr.

Doll? ; ies ; c

A. Five days. . Re e, wry

©. And. what is their basis of compensation?

A. The basis of compensation is the dozens produced

by the clay department’ from the clay that they have

supplied to the elay -departrent.

Q. Then does the amount that a pressman receives for

a day’s work depend on the amount of material which is

turned out on his shift? ; :

A. Directiy. In other words, the whole process is con-

tinuous. If they did not prepare the clay, the clay shop

~ eouldn’t make the dozens, and untess the clay shop pro-

duced the dozens, these men couldn’t. make the presses,

‘heeause there would he no demand for them.

Af you will notice in the description of the process as |

See

[

Bos "+ 3. Charles F. Dull Le

1 have .tried te. give it to you, that it is practically con-

tinuous from one end to the other. That is; from the raw

materia! stage, as the ware is made, it is a constant flow

. Tight through to the ¢ars in which

; finally loaded. . /

__ The Master: ) Because ot rary thd: production ‘that any

department ean turi out is liniited not only by their own

ability and efforts, but also by what t le other departments e

i turn out?” Sy a ae

A. There is a direct inter- sittin . o

(). (By Mr. -CGooper) How -many \men .work on each - oe

shift m this, pressmen division in the blip house?

A. There are two mill chargers and two pressmen.

Q. And whether or not the amount of compensation

depends upon the amount of .work that. the entire ow.

turns out during the eight- hour shift?

A._ It does. — :

Q: Could you state, Mr. Boll, whether or not ‘the glost

belt system, as vou have described ‘it, is a common ‘feature

* in the pottery industry? ut Py s

<A. It is an exclusive feature at the Mt. Cletnens Pot-

tery. ee |

The Mastér: How are other notteries run? Do. they -

have just individual kilns that they fire?

‘A. Continuous burning ¢ kilns of one form or another

are rather generally in. use in the: potteries now. There

are a few that still-have the old beehive or intermittent

kilns, as we ¢all them, that you customarily see in- ‘pie:

tures of potteries. ° ;

The Mt. Clemens Pottery Company ¢ was the mn of the

development. of the tunnel ki Ins and the continuous burn:

-ing process, and the development ‘gradually ‘spread to the

other plants, so that'they have something comparable in -

most of them now to our burning processes, but nothing:

of the character of our mechanical handling of the saggers

through these loading and unloading systems that We have.

Those are exclusive features that we developed. alee

-Q. (By Mr. Cooper). Is the operation of the glost helt

svstem more elaborate or less elaborate than the method

employed in other Potteries?”

he finished- product <l oa

Charles BE. Doll 5: 1105

8 ee Bee

A. it:is more elaborate trom, the equipment stand-°

point, but simpler from the handling of the product.

*Q. | think there has been mention made of certain cup

, machines, automatic cup machines’in the clay department.

Do’ you happen to recat] when. they were introduced, Mr.

Doll? : , <

A. The first automatic clay forming machine we in-

stalled went into: commercial production about January,

1938. a aa ;

Q. Have others been added since?

A. We have added to those since, but not for produc-

tion of cups. About J anuary, 1940, we added one for the

producing of flat ere : stnall plates, saucers, articles of

' -(hat kind. >" ;

| . And there arPaiso, believe, certain dipping ma-

chines in the dipping oat sey. pre ‘

A. Thé spray glazing’ machines were a development

: that’ started with the first one going into commercial pro-

duction in 1939, with. the final instdaltation of a fourth unit

in about July, 1941. Your No, 2 and 3.units came in be- °

tween. Neen ae

Q. I believe there has been some discussion as to the

location in the plant of various witnesses who have ‘testi-

fied here went on their job. I don’t believe: that that is

complete, however. Can you ‘show on Exhibit 30-A, Mr.

Doll, the location within. the plant where Ernest Trom-

bley’s work station was located?” — |

A. That is Earl Trombley? .

Q. Earl Trombley? - Ms

A. Earl Trombley worked in this area shown on Ex-

‘hibit 30-A as glost sagger fillers. Tee.

Q. Did Steve Anderson and Lillian Socia both - work

in the-area indicated on Exhibit 30-A as dipping?

A.: That is correct. Poe aan ae ;

-Q. Would they have any pagticular fixed station

‘throughout the period of two or three years, or would. their

work take them to various places within the department 1:

A. It was-necessary for them to mave to different —

places in the department. ~ pene .

_. Q. And where, if you can show pn Exhibit 30-A, would

.*.

[ee Charles E. Doll

Nicholas Dacko work during that portion of the time that

he worked as a glost unloader? ~~ .

_ A. Nicholas Dacko worked in the area iil on Ex-

hibit 30- -A.as glost unloading. ‘I think he als} testified that

at one time he was a—some months was grinding bats, in

-\.. which éage he worked in the sagger department,/*

Mr. Cooper: 1 offer in evidence, if the court. plonse,

Exhibit 77. That is the decal transfer sheet. :

The Master: Any o¥¥ection?

Mr. Lamb: No objection.

The Master: Admitted. _

9 Q. (By Mr. Cooper) Before you built the ek of the

Mt. Clemens Pottery Company, Mr. Dojl, did you have *

. experience in other. potteries?

A. Yes. I have been connected with potteries since I.

was 17.

Q. What, in a general way, was the ature of your

‘prior experience in the pottery industry?

A. Well, I have been; in my years of experience, -office

boy, foreman, ‘superintendent; sales’ -manager, and general

manager. wr

Q. Since assuming the management of the Mt. Clemens

Pottery Company, have you retained the familiarity with

the general practices in. the pottery industry? .

A. I. Have.

; Q. By the way, is there. any particular feature of the-

-. pottery industry which facilitates obtaining familiarity .

with the general practices?

A. Well, it is comparatively simple to know what the

‘industry in general is doing, due.to the fact that about

80 odd per cent of it-operates inder a—well, about 80 odd

per cent of it are plants that are members of the United

. States Potters Association. This association for the bene-

fit of its members, conducts ‘negotiations with a national

brotherhodd- of operative potters, and their labor agree-

ments. are made with that organization and are uniform ay

thronghout the plants of the association.

- Q. Does your company belong. to this association?

A. We do not.

Charles E..Doll 6. 17

\. ‘By the way, is the union that you speak, of affiliated’

with the A. F. of L. or the C10? o

A.. They are an A. F. of L. affiliation. -ve

- Q. You said, I, think, that some 80 or 88 per cent of

the industry is represerted in this association that you

speak of? ar

A. It is something over 80 per cent.

Q. By the. way, what percentage of the dinnerware .

production of the pottery is represented by the Mt. Clem- .

- ens Qottery Company's production?

-y/ A. About 12 per cent... - wf

_ Q..Can you state, Mr. Doll, with reference to this col--

lective bargaining agreement that you spoke of, whether

- there is a general custom in the industry as to computing

hours worked, and if so what it is? | |

Mr. Lamb: Objection. As I understand it, this com-

pany isn’t even-‘a participant in that. association.

-. Mr. Cooper: The custom’ is nevertheless aterial, your

-honor. It doesn’t mean that they don/t follow the same

customs, or that they do. : : A

Mr. Lamb: There is no showing that they do.

The Master: Well, if he knows what the practice is in

other potteries, I will take it as evidence. One citation

‘ was given here, or a quotation from a wage and hour

opinion, and I think according to my recollection, Mr.

Lamb quoted it at the time and stated that the practice

and conditions prevailing in other ‘plants, or in plants in

general in the industry, would have some bearing upon

the interpretation of the wage and hour act. I do not sup-

pose it would be conclusive, but I will take it as evidence:

A. Will you read the question!

(Question read.) ~

A. To my knowledge, in the plants that we have re-

ferred to, the method of computing hours is rather slip- |

shod. These plants are built as a rule in the open with

numerous doors around them, and in fact I think that

°. our—I know: that our plant is the only plant in the in-

dustry that, is surrounded by an industrial fence,. and

where employees all enter and leave from the one en-

° ,

11 tie. aeeres E. Bolt

trance. The eustomary aie in the other potteries is

to allow the piecework employees to enter and leave at--

will through almost any doorway or entrance that there

Imay be around tlie outside of the plants. Time clocks are

“used very little and only for hourly working operators.

The balance, the piecework operators’ time is generally

kept by the foreman in the departments, noting down each

day the number of hours that the employee claims to. have

worked.

The Master: Are most of your conipeting potteries :

located in Ohio?

‘ As They are located in ihe Ohio section, that is in. the

- eastern Ohio section, in and somewhat adjacent to East

Liverpool, and you will find that the custom prevailing

in one is pretty much followed out by the others. ~

The Master: In the pottery business, is fhe business

concentrated in the hands of a few large potteries, or are

there a great many small units? |

_ A. From the standpoint of the sales volume, the large

part of the total sales volume would be perhaps in about

five companies. ‘The largest one of those companies, .

though, has about half a dozen. plants, scattered, plants, -.

and then there are a number’ of smaller concerns scattered

throughont that general area of Ohio. There is very little

diunerware production in any other part of the United

States, outside of the one plant in Michigan.

Q. (By Mr. Cooper): By the way, howgtoes the plant

ef the Mt. Clemens Pottery Company compare in size

with the Ohio plants that you speak of?

A. Well, from a standpoint of an individual produc-

ing unit, we have the largest individua! prodiicing unit in

the country... There is one company whose total volume

of business is larger than ours, but their output is di-

vided into about five plants. )

Q. Going back to the method generally employed in

the industry as you have described it in computing hours...

worked, can you say, Mr. Doll, whether er not that practice

and that. #vstem is supported hy practices under: the col- +,

lective agreement to which vou referred?

Charles kK: Poll ‘ | : 1109 °

(Objection overruled.) ° ° * Moe aw!

‘A. I am very well acquainted with the other manu--

facturers and learn. of their canditions and what they are

doing, by visits that I have made to their plants, by con-

versatians with the owners or the operators, and also by

the fact that we receive the copies of their agreements

whenever they are made, and know what is provided for

in these agreements. One of the clauses in these agree-

os ments is that they—

-Mr. Lamb: An objection. ‘If-he is going to discuss a

clause, we should. at least have it. ° * * ceed

Thé Master: I think it is a proper subject for expert

testimony. Go ahead. * * * | ee

A. The potteries operating. under an agreement with

the National Brotherhood of Operating Potteries, can in- .

dividually only install time clocks through an agreement

entered“into between the’ individual. plant and the local

- operating within that plant.

Mr. Lamb: I ask that the answer be stricken.

The Master: I will let it stand. Fe

(By Mr. Cooper) Whether or noty if you can say,

a considerable, portion of-the industry represented under

this collective agreement doés not use time clocks?

Mr. Lamb: Objection.

The Master: Overruled.

Mr. Lamb: Unless he names the companjes.

-A.. To my knowledge, time clocks are ‘very little used

‘in these plants, except for a limited number of day wage

workers. nas et ‘ piss

Q. (By Mr. Cooper) By the way, how.did you happen. ‘

++ install time clocks ‘at the pottery company, Mr. Doll?

_. Mr. Lamb:. Objection. See

The Master: Overruled. : eae

_ A. Many years ago wé had time clocks for a few hourly

workers, but we did not have pieceworkers on time cloeks.

We first put all workers on time clocks about 1933 or

along in that period when NRA first came into existence.

. How many ¢locks were installed? . |

A. The first clocks—well, hack at the time that we only

V0 Charles BE. Doll »

had the hourly workers on the time clock there was simply.

one clock in the whole plant. .After we put all employees _

on time clocks about 1933, we installed clocks A and B’

shown on ‘Exhibit : ‘B30-A. .

5 They are Sot. “Clock A is an isthniiitonal, operat:

ing on an entirely different mechanism than clock B, which

is a Stromberg electric. .

Q. At the time the time clocks were installed back

- about 1933, was a method set up to compute the number —

of hours an employee had worked?

A. Yes, a method was set up at that time.:

Q. Did you have sométhing to do, Mr. Doll, with de-

vising that method?

A. I did. oe

Q. Can vou describe what the system. is,, and how it

was set up?

same system that has been in. operation ever since; that

is that the record of attendance of employees was to be

recorded an ‘the time clocks, that theshours they actually

worked were to be entered on the cards daily for the bene-

fit of office records as well-.as for.the benefit of. the em-

ployees knowing the time that had heen charged to them.

Q. Was any period of time fixed with reference to

when an “employ ee could enter the plant — punch | in in-

the morning?

A. The original rule was that the time clocks would

be open for 14 minutes before the starting period. °° °

Q. ( By Mr. Cooper) Has that same rule been followed

ever since down throngh the period involved here?

‘A. It has.-

Q. By the way, before the time clocks were installed,

and this system set up, was there a limitation as to the

time when a piecework: employee could enter the plant in

' the morning?

A. No, there was not.

Q. May T ask, Mr. Doll, how you adopted that 14-min-

ute interval?

er.

- rule.

Charles Bb. Dall 1111

Mr. Lamb: Objection.

‘he Master: Overruled.

A. As I previously testified, I. have been in the busi- >

ness, actively engaged in manufacturing or supervising.

__—manufacturing, for many yéars. I wes entirely familiar

with the habits, the reasoning, and the general custom of

employees as to coming to work, and also entirely familiar

with the time element required for the average person

to get himself or herself ready for work. Consequently,

in adopting the 14-minute period as reasonable, or as a

maximum period that people could utilize to get them-

selves-ready for work, T was following a knowledge of the

actual conditions involved together with an understanding —

Q.. Was.that the same 14 minutes on the clock for all

the employees, or were there different 14-mjnute periods?

A. Well, there would be a 14-minute period before

whatever the starting time might happen-to be in the de-

partment, and of course, the starting time was different -

Q. And there would bean allowance of 14 -minutes

before the starting time in the employee’s particular de-

partment, is that correct? 7°

A. That is correct.:.

_ Q. What was the situation with reference to the close

’ of work and punching out of the time clock? .

A. They were allowed a 14-minute period in which to

leave or get from the department to their time clock and

during which to -perform any other personal duties that

they might have to do and want to-do before being charged

with another quarter of an hour. ee

Q. And what’ was the purpose in setting up this 14

- minute period? . | —s,

Mr. Lamb: ‘Objection.

- The Master: Overruled. , oer |

A. The purpose was. two-fold; one was to establish

--a rule that was fair to the employee, as well as a rule

1412 ; Charles BE. Doll

, ‘

that insured the ‘itileetain bites ready*and availabe for ;

production at the established starting time. ~

Q. (By Mr. Cooper): Whether or not there was any

requirement as to the time an employee « ould — the

time clock?

the 14 minutes and his established starting time.

Q. Was it a matter of the employee’s convenience as

to when he wanted to mee int ° ,

A. It was, yes.

__» Q. Suppose that an cnphepes whose starting time was

7 A.M., punched the time clock at exactly 7 A. M., as of ;

what time would his work be computed as having begun? ;

A. As of 7 o’clock.

Q. In setting up this 14-minute period, Mr. Doll, did

you take into consideration your observations over a

—

into the plant and going to work?

A. We did. ~*

Q. What part do the time clock cards play in this |

system of computing the hours of work, Mr.. Doll?

A. They are first of all a record of attendance. ;

Q. Could you keep your record of the hours of work

without using time clock cards? ; :

A. We could.

- Q. Is it more convenient from the viewpoint of ae

work, and so forth, to have the time clock ecards, or would.

it be more convenient to not use them? - ~ @,

A. It would be more convenient ‘to the- office to nse

time books. <a °

Q. Is there a more or less established — system |

that you refer. to? |

A. Well, the wage and hour law permits the use «f

time ‘books of any system that adequately reflects the -

hours that people actually work. i

' The Master: What is thé time book systém that vou

refer to? | —

. A. The time book system that we could use ‘aid ‘which

would be aaa enak if certain aspects would. be ‘for ,the

<—_ m rs

period of years of the practices of employees in coming ~

Charles BE. Doll 113

foreman of each department to keep a time book in which —

was recorded the names of the employees’ and the hours

worked. | oo Oe

The Master: Would the. foreman under that ‘system -

that you speak. of, enter the iime that the employee ar-~

rives in the morning and the time he leaves at nqpn?

A. No, he would simply note the hours worked.

.The Master: Does the employee sign the entry. of

participate in any way in ‘the entry?

A. Such systems are in use in various plants where?®

they don’t, or'.where they do sign. me Ss

» > The Master: Then why do you resort to“the time clock

‘method of keeping the record of hours worked? _

A. Because of the fact that we thought that the time

clock method would do ,away. with any possiblity of.a

dispute as to the attendance, or more especially the fact

as to whether or not the person really was getting there

‘n time to be ready for work, Whereas the other system,

a person might slip in late, and the foreman afterwards |

when he askéd him, well, he has been here all day and put

him down for 8 hours... a

The Master: Do 1 understand the testimony: you have

given that if the established starting time is 7 o’clock,

. ‘von ask the employee and want the employee to-be at

'\\his-place of work and. ready to’ start production work at

7 o'clock: ; A :

A. That is correct. bot ‘

The Master: You.also mentioned that you didn't care |

whether the employees checked in at the time clock at 14

minutes to 7 or whether they waited until one or two

minutes to 7 or ever at 7 o’clock, that they. would stil’

_, get eredit for starting at 7. How do vou reconcile the

two, statements? | eo |

A. Simply this, that the responsibility we place upon

the employee is to be ready for work. - .

The Master: If he checks the time clock in at 7

_ o'clock" he obviously can’t be at his place of work at 7

aye Charles E. Doll

ie -

_A. No, we realize that he wouldn’t be starting work”

until after. But the question was.asked me if he did.

punch in at 7, would he still get credited for ‘having .

started at that. time. , Well, utder the’rulé of recording

the time, he would, but actually he would not. have starsed ,

at that time.

‘The Master: And actually the plant management would

. disapprove of his coming in regularly and punching - the

time clock at 7 o’clock?

. A. His foreman would certainly remonstrate with him

about it. That -actually happens frequently where” people

have to be cautioned about ‘it. We don’t fire thém on.

the reasonableness of it-and finally adjust themselves to it. ¢

Q. .(By Mr. Cooper) Then’ this system as you have

described it, of computing hours of work, has been in’

effect at the Mt. Clemens Pottery Company down through

the period involved in this suit and for about how many

- years before that? ;

A. If my memory is correct, it is just when NRA Went

into operation, which I think was along abont 1933. It

had beén in operation then about 8 years at the time of

| the™ suit.

Q. And in retaining the system through this period

of time, . Mr. Doll, were you familiar with the practices —

as you have described them in other industries of keeping

"time on a time. book without use of time clocks?

A. I was. ,We felt this was a much more thorough

and fair system.

Q. Were yo familiar with the interpretative rulings

of th® wage and hour division to the effect that time

clocks were not required? .

Mr. Lamb: Objection. * * * ; a

The Master:. I think I will take his’ testimony subject -

to the objection i in order to get the testimony on record.

I don’t at the present see just the materiality of it, but I

- do think your question was in the leading form and you.

should ask him to what, if any, extent, rulings of the

Charles E; Doll, *.° -7 115

wage and hour act or department were taken intu effect

in ‘establishing the system, rather than referring to a

Q.. (By Mr. Cooper) Were you familiar, Mr. Doll,

with certain interpretive bulletins or rulings of the wage

and hour division .with reference to the use of time

‘A. I have read such.- |

Q. Have you been familiar with. them for quite a

period of time? 7 - ;

A. I have since the—it is my recollection. since shortly

_ after the law Went into effect.

- Q. And were you then familiar with those as you con-

‘tinued this system of computing ‘time through the period

involved in this suit? « :

os i eres

Q. Can you state, Mr. Doll, on the basis of your, ob-

‘servations and knowledge, whether or not the employees

_of the pottery understand the system under which hours

of work are computed? ati. ye

4 Mr. Lamb: Qbjection. ~~ oe | |

‘The Master: 1 think that asks,for a conclusion. | rill.

sustain the objection to that. f

Q.. (By Mr. Cooper) Have you ever had complaints

‘rom employees with referetice to, for example, the matter

of computation of the size of their pay checks?

Mr. Lamb:*. Objection. | .

The.Master: Overruled. That is one of the issues.

; o

ee 8. .

‘A. In the making up of payrolls, there is always the

- possibility that either through a recording or through a .

calculation, an error might be made. An employee might

be-over-paid: Occasionally an employee might be under-

paid. ie eet . —_

In the case of the under-payment, which, of course,

would be entirely a matter of a mistake or an error, the.

employee will so report te his foreman, and the foreman

will bring the matter to, the office, either taking it up

11167 ace. Coation. Doll «

himself atid having the, matter investigated for the ber:

efit of the employee, or, as frequently eden bringing

the employee to the office with him, and, of course, where

- an error is shown, it is promptly corrected.

Q. (By Mr. Cooper) Did you ever fire an’ employee

for making such a. complaint?

A. We certainly have not. In fact, we welcome tlicin

doing it when they are. right on the matter, of even@if-

they think they are right in the matter. We would rather

‘have them come to the office and satisfy .themselve= than

to harbor any ill feeling. .

Q. I will*ask you whether or not any .of those ecorm-

plaints*have related to the matter of computing hours of

work?

A. .They have never.

Q. Whether or not-any employee has ever adv ised.you

that he felt he had worked longer hours than was shown

on his time clock card? .

Mr. Lamb: Objection.

A. We have never had an instance ‘of that kind.

The Master: Overruled. * * *

The Master: Do the employees ever come to you and

make complaints in person? * * *

A. The way that I would learn of these imstances, your |

Honor, is this; the fact. that I circulate throughout the

plant so much, and I am very closely in touch with our

- forcmen and department heads, and we stop and’ daily

talk over this, that, and the other.. They are very prone

to report things of this kind to me—

“The Master: Who do vou mean, “they,” the employees

or the foremen? |

A. No, the foremen are very prone to: report to me -

particularly if they thought that there had been any de-

lay or not: ‘enough promptness on the part of the office’ in

conducting an immediate investigation, or. if they thqught

_.the thing indicated some carelessness on the part of the

office employees, that I should know about it. But if. of

the other hand, the foremen were receiving complaints

‘ . .

Charles BE. Doll Wai

with regard to the hours charged to an empioyee, which.

would involve company system or company ‘policy, that

‘would be very promptly reported to me by the’ foremen.

The Master: Does he have instructions of that sort,

that complaints resulting from company policiés should

be reported to you? be

A. Absolutely, that is one of the things we ‘think ef -

- ficient management must have, and. that ig sources of.

vetting’ first-hand information. .

Q. (By Mr. Cooper) Are the computation sheets open -

for employees” inspection? :

A. Absolutely, at. all- times, and when an —

questions a record he or she is brought right to the’ com-

putation sheefB. - ae

* Q. Can you say from your observations whether or

not there is any particular practice in the decorating de-

- partment as to the keeping of notebooks by the individual .

operators?

A. In our dechrating department they. operate under .

a syeni whereby they check their own notations with

the department, records in charge of*the foreman before

the final. pay ‘sheets go to the office. :

‘ Q. Do -I understand you correctly that a girl keeps

track in. a notebook of her own production? hie

A. That is correct. = eee

Q. And checks that against the —e* figures? .

A. That is it. |

Q. Before the report is sent to the office?

A. Aga matter of fact, in that. particular depart-

nient we accept their figures. .

Q. is it true that in certain departments .a slip show-

ing the inspector’s count of the pieces. done is given the -

employee so that he will have a duplicate of the com-

pany’s recor 3 a ae ar a

A. In the clay department they have’ duplicates of.: -

their production. .

~Q. And how is .the production: kept track of in the

brushing and dipping department, for example? Is the

tne" ey Charles E. Bott

employee’s ; count taken. as to the ‘amount of produetion

* for which he will be paid? *

A. The employee’s count is accepted in the brushin: ra

and dipping department.

_ - The Master: What check do you have on‘that to detcr-

mine whether or not the employee is patting in too high

acount? . ?

A. The chéck we fualie on it is by a comparison of the

_ total dozens shown by the fill of the cars as against the

: employee’s caleglations as total dozens produced.

The Masier:, Do you make a daily check on that?

A. Those are checked per pay: -.

The Master:. Do they always come out exactly even? .

A. . They don’t come out exactly even. While I’ don’t

think—wé have never found evidences of a deliberate at-

tempt_on ‘the part of employees to stuff their count, the

trend of the ‘difference i is a little in the employees’ favor. —

Q. (By Mr. Cooper) Going back, I would like to ask

- you, and perhaps I should limit this particularly to the

period involved in the “suit, whether you spend a_par-

ticular portion of your time i in the — poriion 1.of the

plant? ©

_ A. As Lhaye’ previously testified, I am out in the plant

| considerably more times than I am in the office or engaged

in. other duties. im :

Q. You have some opportunity, then, of knowing

piant problems’ and plant procedures from first- hand ob- -’-

servation? t.

A. I make a point. of adjusting my duties. so | can

liave that.

Q. Have you had occasion to observe the situation in.

_ the plant in the morning as the employees come in’ for

‘A. I frequently see the employees arriving in the de;

partments.

By the way, can ‘all the departments start out a...

onee, at the same starting time? :

A. Throughout the whole plant, in our type of opera-

Charles E. Doll , uu

» ton, the, operation does” “not adap! itself “40 al depart-

ments starting at the same time.

Q. Could you describe how the plant is put in wpera-

tion in the morning, describing’ what operations “faye to

a6 ta" others as the day's production commetnees?

Well, . starting with the slip department, that. de-

Prints nt, operating on a 24-hbur basis, the onc 8 bout:

shift Lolluws the other one in naturat SeqUCHCe, and they

are “1 1s ponsilde for. eg egg their 24-hour, perivd-.

enough clay to keep the clay shop in prod luction during

- their two-shift basis.

The clay department; Having a starting time Scnerally

of 6 A. M. in the morning, is- ‘based upon, so splitting the

time of the,two shifts so as to not make either the morn-.

ing shift abiiormally early in coming or the second shift

abnormally Jate in going irome, and of course those shifts

switch from week to week. They are not always ihe same

mornings or the same evenings

Then we get down to the Iiln denitinedia ‘where; of

course, we have a three-shift basis there, and that auto-

. matically takes care of itself. After we leave the clay

department, practically ‘all the other departments,gare on

a single Shift basis, with starting and stopping time fairly

close together. .

So that your shift in hours is to a big extent controlled

bythe three, two or one-shift proposition.

.Q. There are, then, different starting times for the

different departments? ,

a That i is correct. t+ 8

Q. * Can yeu-s tate-sonfe typical *starting times tor the

various departments at the beginning of the day? ‘For

example, what is (hé normal ‘starting time tn the clay. —~

shop? — : ° :

AL. Well, the clay shop normally starts at 6.0 ‘clock.

().. ‘Nre there other departments with a regular start-

ing time ot 7 o’clock? L

A. Yes. The départment in’ which the clay ware is -

loaded—that is, the — loading department—they will

Cary . : -®>

* 9

(1120 ian Chartes Ee Doll | °

‘

start sometimes. at 6:30, %ometimes at 7 o'clock. And we

come+down to the other departments, basieally.they are

on a7 to.7:15 or 7:30 starting time basis, according to

_ conditfens that prevail over different periods of the year.

Q. Have you had occasion to make’ any observations, °

Mr. Doll, of the employees coming in during this interv al

and punching in at the time clocks?

A. Yes, I have seex them on the early shifts a- well as

afternoon shifts. I know how they liné up and the” ven

eral conditions connected with. the vhecking through on

the clocks. .

Q. Would you please describe that situation?

A.” Well, we will take a typical tnstance of, ‘we will

say, a department or a group of departments that are

going to start at 7 o’clock, aiid in which the. time clocks’

are opened at 14 of. Ina ‘case of that kind you will find

a certain number of people, the early birds, who are lined

up at the clock pn that particular morning, waiting for 14

minutes to come. When the signal is given that the’

clocks are open and they ean begin ‘checking in, they

start to go through.

Now, depending upor the length of that line doterthines

‘how many people go’ through’ during the early part of the

14 minutes, but’ after those that have ‘accumulated ‘and

those that keep straggling in while’ the line is moving up |

_or going through, you are gradually iit mata ‘the end

of the line. .

After the end of the line goes through, why, tides what

you say,—the people ‘are coming in in between or half

way point between. the opening of the clocks and starting

‘time; they begin to straggle through and finally you get

down to the real stragglers who are just beating the gun -

by a few minutes, or just barely getting in on time or

. will be late in starting.

It is very simple to tell from the line-up: how inuch

delay sthere is for the people at the tail end of the line

in being able to punch through as against the people who

“are at the head end of the line.

* Chark s Bk. Dell , . 2s

The Mister: I take, it that more employees come in at

7-o’elock, or on. that shift, than at any other time? " [°

A. As fat as one individual time clock is concerned

_there probably were.on time clock B more people conring .

in around that period. “4

The Master: “How, many employees, roughly, will Tiave

to punch in ai these two time clocks .\ and B, or each. of

the twostime clocks A and B between 14 minutes to 7 and’

7 o'clock? wir :

A. You are referring to the period previous to this

action?

The Master: Yes, the period of 1938 to 1941.

A. In the case of time clock A, the slip department, -

which was comparatively a small department; would be -

punching, in earliest. Then when you came to the people

coming in for the clay department, there would’ be in

the neighborhood of 300 coming thr®agh on each -shift.

- And; over on the time clock B there would be frem 200

to 300 going’ through on that partictlar clock. ° * :

The Master: Do you hate any idea how long it takes

300 employees to punch the time clock, pass the clock?

“ A. Yes, I definitely know. I have freyyently checked

it myself, and they go through the time clocks on an aver-

age of about 25 per minute ;

The M&ster: So that iAhey were all lined up there

at 14 minutes to 7, that would be about 12 minutes?

A. 300 people would take 12 minutes to go through.

The Master: It would be two* minutes to 7 before they

could all be through?

A. The last one would be through.

The Master: The man that got through at two minutes

to 7, woul he be ready to go to work at 7 o’elock under

ordinary conditions?

A. He would not. :

The Master: Then. at the very best some of the em-

ployees are bound to be late in going through, are they

not? , . .

’

“1129 Charles E. Doll”

A. All aglovecs do not get. started at ‘work at ee

starting time. :

The Master: And even if Shey all arrived at 14 idnation’ |

to 7 it would still be impossible for all of them to be at »

their position of work and ready to do — work’.

at 7 o'clock?

A. In the cage where as many as 300 or more people

‘were going through a clock. . ¥F

The Master: All right. | |

Q. (By Mr. Cooper, continuing): By-the way, would

it take the same aniount of time to get them through the

time clock, Mr. Doll, whether they were lined up before

the time clocks were opened or whether they came in in —

various groups er singly during the 14-minute period?

A. I have frequently observed them with that parti- .-

. cular thing in mind, and the time would be just. about

the same except in the case where you have a few brand

new employees switched into the line, in which case there

grab thé card out of the rack, insert it.in the clock, and

put it’in the other side of the rack as quickly as oe ex-

perienced employee.

Q. I think vou referred, also, to time clock B. It ap-

pears on Exhibit 30-A, does jit not, that there are two time

clocks at-the point marked ‘‘time clock B’’? .* * *

A. Exhibit 30-A shows an arrow specifically pointing

to time clock B. On the other side of the aisle there is a

' marking which rotates time clock C, but it is not specified

on the plan. Time clock. C was not installed until about

e month of March, 1941. * * *

Q. (By Mr. Cooper): Considering time - clock wan

and the time clock which was af: point ‘‘B’’ during the

period up te March of 1941, what type of _ clocks Were

they, Mr. Doll? ee

A. Well, ‘‘A’’ was an tudeteiitionad, and “*B’’ was a

Stromberg, both electric clocks. :

Q.~ Just what. would an employee have to do when he

Oy ‘

Chades Eo Doli + iif

was going through the time clock, as we speak of it, what

would be his precise steps? ae? pees

A. In the case of time clocks ‘‘A’* and ‘‘B”’, ti@y are

similar in this respect; that the employee first locates his

time card in the rack, withdraws it from the rack, in-

serts it in the slot of the time clock, pushes a lever, Te? ~

leases a lever, takes his card out and proceeds to place

it in the rack onthe other side of the time clock. —

-Q. And during the period involved what would be the

average number of persons going through time clock ‘‘B’’ .

for the 7 o’clock shift? - ; a err

- A. About 25 per minite—oh, you mean as to the total

number"? = : ee.

Q. The-total number. ~ - ie

. A.. The total namber going through there at any ,par-

ticular starting time would be between 200 and 250. ‘e

The Master: How did you happen to install a second

time clock at that point? —oS

A. -As a matter of splitting the plant into. two pay

periods, that’ is, we pay on a two weeks’ period, about *

‘. one-half of the employees are paid on one. period, and

one-half on the other. — Meee oo Bish oar

Now, for the -conveniencé of the employees, the em- 4

plovees on time clocks ‘‘B’’ and ““C’? use these cloak

rooms in the administration. building on the east end of

the plant, and they are all paid on one: Friday. The other

employees that use time clock ‘‘A’” use the cloak .rooms %

on the north side of the plant and they are’ all paid on

another Friday.* - .— es

The Master: The question that I have in mind is how

did you happen to install an additional time clock right

opposite the time clock ‘‘B’’? 7 aioe Ce

A. Oh, this was installed here because there was some

congestion in getting through that time clock, and, at the

request of the employees, it really was, we put in the

other clock at the ‘request of the employees. :

Q. - (By Mr. Cooper): Would. there be line-ups that

~ out.

1124 : Charles E, Doll ?

would. occur from time to time during the 14 minute pee

riod that the ye ihe would . be _punehing™ inate ps

time clock?.*-**———_~

A. There is always a group congregated ready to go

through as.sodn as the clock is_open. While they ‘are

moving through, others arrive and come in on the tail end

-of the line. Finally you really get the line through, then

you come to the point where they are arriving -by twos

and threes, and then finally to the single staggers com-

ing in on. the finish.

The Master: In the clay shop. you said shins were about

300 employees on each shift?

_A. That would be going through the clock at one time.

The Master: That would be going through the clock

at one time, and that is not only true in the morning but

it is also true at noon when they leave for their lune *h

half hour? ‘Be

A. Absolutely, wherever they gO in they, have to come

The Monten: And the lunch period i is the same through-

out. the clay shop, that is taken at the same time?:

A. Not entirely. The people operating on the auto-

matic machines frequently have a slightly different lunch

period thanthe people working on the’ hand jobs, gr than

ag people doing other operations in the clay department.

- The Master: -Is there any considerable number of them

working on the automatic machines?

A. There are quite a few, ves.

The Master: About how many? -

A. Well, you take from a standpoint of the—any . one

shift, the number of workers on each machine is—they

represent about fifty people. . |

“The. Master: So that there would still be about 250

people who were not working on the automatic machines

and who would go out to.lunch at the same time?

A. That is right.

The Master: And when they. leave for lunch, at best it

would take them ten minutes to pass the time clock?

v’

\ y

Charles. Doll ae

—

__-A= It-would take tliem on th: sume basis, if they were

all lined up, it. would take them ten minutes going out.

Q. (By Mr. Cooper) Would the number of employees |

that would get through the time clock in the course of a

minute vary somewliat, perhaps up.or down from 25, de-

pending upon whether or not there were a group waiting

in line with. their cards all ready.

Mr. Lamb: Objection ‘to the form of the. question as ne

jeading. - ! ,

The Master: ‘Read back the question. —

(Question read.)

A. When I— — , ;

The Master (interposing): Just a minute. The witness

ean state as to whether or-not the 25 per minute average

which he gave is subject to variations, depending upon dif-

-rerent factors, and state the factors that affect the ‘varia-

tion, if there is the variation. That will eliminate any

leading form to the question. ) y

A. Thave checked them and observed them myself, and

I have checked them as fast.as 28 and I haye checked

them as slow as’ 22. And I know that the 25 is a fair

average. Me ; | :

Now, the variables that cause that are, as I said a bit

ago, the speed with which an experienced worker who has

heen doing:that for years, takes the card in and out and

punches it and puts it in. the other rack and goes on his

way, as against the beginner who is not so familiar with

things. as

And then also, like in a!l operations, piecework opera-

tions or anything else that human heings do, everybody—

- or one person is not necessarily, as fast as another. Con-

sequently, according to the way the fast or the slow ones

may be grouped in there is what determines your average

speed in going through the clocks. :

4 Q. (By Mr. Cooper) Are employees expecteder_.re-

quired to punch the time clock at any particular time dur-

ing this 14-minute period? | . .

A. They are not.

1126 ‘Charles KB. Doll

as'they can after punching the time clock?

A. ‘Phey are not--they are told not to, and at the

same time they do not.

. Q. Are you familiar from actual observation, Mr. Doll,

with the activities of employees in fhe plant during this

14-minute period before an established starting time?

A. I am.

Q. Would ygu describe the situation?

Mr. Lamb: dbjection, unless he identifies the particu-

lar employees and the days he is describing them.

The Master: I will overrule the objection. General.

testimony has to be given on that and was given in be- .

half of the plaintiffs . ‘and can also be given by -the de-

fendants.

A. It is a-very interesting study to observe a thing of

that kind.. In years gone by there might not have been

any particular importance attached to it, but under pres-

ent conditions those things are noted and observed.

First of all, after the employee has punched the time

elock, you note, if you are really studying the situation,

that ‘the speed or the rate at which different’ ones walk

from the time elock ‘to his ae ana varies quite de-

cidedly. —

The gait at which they walk is ; quite different.. lf some- ~

one further up the line is walking very fowly some people

will continue,—will go along adjusting their gait fo the

_-gait.of the person up ahead. If, however, somebody thinks

that gait is too slow he may ent aronnd and - up fur:

_ther in the procession.

That is the first thing.

The second thing that is interesting is that despite the

fact, as is shown on Exhibit 30-A, there are toilet rooms

to which the employees may go before they. arrive at the

time clock, that after they have gone through the time

clock if they happen to pass another set of toilet rooms,

‘why, some of them will stop in there; or, they will stop at

the drinking fountains as they go along. They invariably °

Charles EF. Poll ee i ef |

come in in twos, stroll along in twos and threés chatting

_and talking as they go among their own particular group.

. If they are passing employees of another-department in

their line of travel they will sometimes stop and talk to

these. other employees. . Sec we MES

| have seen them even digress from the regular line of

travel to his department and go. oyer-into another de-

partment where he.may want-to say a word to an employee

in that department if that department happens to be

‘working.” ; ar

When they get-down to the particular place in the: .

department at which this’ empleyee is ‘going to go to

work, unless he has come in late from the standpoint of

{| punching in close to his'starting time, he is quite leisurely

fin getting himself ready and taking care of the little

duties connected with the personal things that he has to

do to get ready to start. i ne

~ We have a good bit of conversing among our employees,

perhaps more than what they would have in some other .

sections due to the fact that we have such a large number

of them that are interested in boating. Somé ‘of them have

hoats of their own. -In fishing, in pheasant shooting in

the fall, and in deer hunting and in things of that kind.

‘Mr. Lamb: °*T object to all this type of conversation.

- The Master: -I will overrule it. | ae

A. And 1 know, as a mater of fact, that they spend

quitesa bit of time in visiting back and forth. -The time is

their own. You can find no fault with that. And, there is

a kind of -a sociability connected with those starting pe-

riods. And then they go about,—every: job has a lot of

little personal things to get ready io enable then to get

started promptly and to enable them to operate efficiently.

These people are 98 per cent on piecework operations.

They become very proficient at it. They know the things:

that they should do ahead of time'to get themselves prop-

erly set to start promptly and to make the best .use of

their allowed working time. * ° °

(§. Conld yon state, Mr. Doll, whether the finishers in

1188 Charles ¥. Boll

the clay department Sometimes purchased their supplies

during this period that we were talking about before the

noon recess, in,the 14-mindte pertod preeeding the regular

starting time?”

A. Quite— oe *.

Mr. Lamb: Objection. >

The Master: @verruled. Go ahead.

A. Quite a number of them make their purchases of

. their supplies before starting time, particularly on the

afternoon shift, i a

‘Q. Can you state from ebnvevelion whether any - par.

ticular amount of time is consumed in that connection?:

A. Well, in-a case of finishers, they do take quite a

little time in purchasing their sponges, due to the fact

». that a number of them will arrive at the stock room in the

"same general period, and of course’ they like .to select

-.. their own sponges. In the stock room they will have a.

tray or a cage with quite.a number of sponges in it, just

as they have come from the bales, and a finisher, when

her turn comes after the girl ahead of her has been waited —

on, she ‘will step up to the cage and paw around among

them, pick out one-that secms\to suit her, and then she

will dip it into a pai! of water setting. alongside the cage,

to soak it up to see after it is soaked up if it suits her.

. She may go through half a dozen of them before ‘she

finds one that really suits her, but the choice is hers, so

we let her pick ont one that suits her and reject as many

as she sees fit. , \

Q. What would you say as to whether or not the em-

ployees commence actual work before the established

starting time’.

_A. The general average of employees—

Mr: Lamb: Object to the — Let the record show

‘an objection. . ,

The Master: On the ground it is ‘too general and has” 3

to be limited to a particular time and place?

Mr. Lamb: That is one of the grounds.

The Master: What other grounds?

_ Mr. Lamb: Materiality.

Charles Kk. Doll : 1 129

The Master: Well, 1 don’t see any question of material-

ity. The other ground, why—I will let him testify this

way. | think I permitted. it for the plaintiffs and so | .

will permit it for the defendants.

-_*

Mr. Lamb: It is a conclusion. . .

A. My observation and knowledge ot the situation is

that the employees do-not start work before starting time,

and that they frequently ‘start after... a

Q.: (By Mr, Cooper) Now, you have described the be-

' ginning of operations in the morning, Mr. Doll. . Now,

can you tell the Court what the situation is with refer-

ence to quitting time at the end of the day?

A: Well, take, for ‘instance, the piecework department,

such as the clay department, and in fact with nearly all

piece workers, they try to schedule their work and do

schedule their work so ‘het they are an the safe side of

{he starting time in finishing up. They will not run the

risk of carrying over portions of a unit and endeavor to

‘finish up on the basis of a complete unit. — :

This invariably means that they are through with the

units that they have been working on, they are through

with the cleaning up incidental to their, jobs, making them-

and do many times leave the-department before quitting

time, stopping at the wash rooms or toilet rooms as they

go out, and many times are waiting at the time clock ready

to punch out at the earliest possible moment.

Q. Have you had oceasion to observe how steady. work .

continues during the-day? _ pe iaae o_o:

Mr. Lamb: Objection,

The Master: Overruled. * ° °

. A. Piecework employees are not engaged in. productive

work during the entire established or allowed work pe-

riod. , The big majority of our people are good workers.

They are interested in earning, but they do not hesitate

to take a few minutes here and there throughout the day

to relax. from the tension of. continuous production.

They, of course, stop production whenever ‘they take

}

L808” — Chartis E2 Doll

—=-@,

time out to go to a drinking fountain or to go to-a wash

room or to take a few minutes to perform some incidental

function connected with the particular job...

During the.course of the work period, émployees do go

to the stock room, make purchases of supplies. They have

knives or individual tools that they have. to keep in con-

dition to’ work, and as long as they show by their general

production and. attention to the work that they are on the

'. job, that they are trying to produce, that they are inter- —

ested in producing from their own standpoint as well as

ours, we do not object to these minutes -that are. —

out in the course of ‘the work period.

Q. _What is your observation as to how the company’s

computation of -hours worked compares with ‘the actaal

‘hours of work?

Mr. Lamb: Objection. ~ b

The Master‘ I think this es is more —"

I will take his answer. |

A. Our study of the situation convinces us that our

method of calculating’ is more ee fair to the employee.

Q. (By .Mr. Cooper) Could I ask you whether it is’.

more or less than the amount of time actually worked? = ~

- Mr. Lamb: Objection.

A. Our estimate is that the ‘ime recorded is more than

the time actualy spent in production work.

Mr. Lamb: I ask that the answer be stricken.

The Master: I wilblet that.answer stand. I will st¥ike

~ the ‘previous answer. about it being more than fair to the

employee.

Q.* (By Mr. Cooper) in referring to the time recorded,

you refer to the hours computation which appears, among

= places, on the right-hand column of the tinge clock?

That is -correct.

_Q: Have you ever heard of any preparatory opera-.

tions of cleanup operations being performed by an em-

ployee either before he rang his time card in the morn-

ing, or after he had punched gut the time clock. at night?

©.

Charl S E. Doll | i "1131

Mr. Lamb: Objection; asking for: hearsay. ‘‘Has he —

ever heard of something.”” __ mils S - oy

Mr. Cooper: Wel!, I can ask him whether he knows of

it. ae ° ; ¢

- The Master: Ask’him whether he knows. -| will accept

the question in the revised form. Do you know of any.

such? eee Svea J

‘A. J.do uot know of any ‘duties that they perform,

outside of the incidental personal -duties. * ° ° ey

Q. (By. Mr. Cooper) Do:you know of -any. employee

in the glost belt department coming in on.a Monday morn-

ing ‘to. load the saggers and loading saggers hefore punch-

ing in his time card?: : : me ; .

-A&. As to-my knowledge, all work is performed after

- the time cloek is punched in and after the regular starting

time. on Ary o gon eons

- Q. Is the method ot paying employees largely on piece

rates, moré or legs peculiar to the Mt. Clemens Pottery

Company, or is,jt common: thronghout the indust ryt

A.-. Piece rate—- , ,

_. Mr. Lamb: Objection. a"

The Master: Overruled. — oe ;

A. Piece rate operations are typical. and prevail

‘throughout the pottery industry. aot .

Q. - (By Mr. Cooper) Could yow state briefly, Mr. Doll,

just what is meant by the term ‘‘piece rate system’’? —

A. Well, the piece rate system is one in-which the, em-

' -ployer agrees to pay a given sum for a certain -unit or

pieces of work, or certain service performed, and which

is understood and agreed upor between the employee and

the’ employer, and wh'cl has two primary ‘ purposes; —

one, of giving a fixed costwon that. item of-production, and,

on the other hand. given the employee -the . opportunity

through his individual skill and initiative to earn the

maximum of his ability. " , mL

Q. There*has been some reference. made during the

course of the hearing, Mr. Doll. to an employee punching

the time clock, as for example, 10 minutes to 7, and being

paid from 7 o’clock, Now, is the .pigce rate workers paid

‘from 7 o'clock? .._ ‘

° ¢

“e

By i ; ‘ Chas li S iF Doil

° < ad

" aie ;

\ ‘ per: “* : a;

. A.- The piece. rate worker is paid for the units of piece”

~ work. produced. # ee °

Q. Js he paid for simply making his ‘services availatil

during certain hours? |

"A. He is not, because he distinetly differs f8m ay

hourly worker. - An hourly worker is paid for the time he

puts in.on the job. ’

The Master: Of course, where you hav ea groujy picee |

work rate, sometimes the employ ee may make considerable

earnings ev Cig if he doesn’t turn out much fens init

may he’ not?

A. Theoretically: that is’ true, but actually the layout

‘of those group operations makes it practically impossible

fora single individual to scldier on, the job, because it"

would so dsrupt and retard the operation of the group,

that even if the employer was willing to put up is it

the balance of the workers would not be. .

Q. (By Mr. ¢ ‘ooper) , Do ‘you have anything .to do with

fixing the piece rates at the pottery, Mg, Doll? -

a. ia: ” =a oe v 7 4

Q. Can you state whether or not the time which’

required to perform an operation is taken into ccaittbow

tion in determining the piece rate?

‘A. Basically the piece rate is based upon the amount

‘hat ean be pr odueed in a given ‘length of time, and also *

meaits--and also. must make allowance for any- supplies .-

that the employee would have to acquire. in the carrying -

out of that piece rate. In other: words, it ,must be ‘based,

upon what is left to the emp!oyee after he has put in the

‘ime, produced the, units, taken care of the jncidental

duties innected with the job, and provided his supplies.

‘@. So that the aggregate piece rate includes not only

compensation for services render eves, but compensation

for supplies or fools furnished by” the employee? 7

+ -. ioe. .

. Now, how ean the piece - aeaieiete s rate. of pay be

‘measured on.a time basis, so far as you can say?

A.” Well, it ean’t be uniformly measured on a time

basts when you take into consideration the difference in

skill and speéd of various operators. In other words, one

ode

: a* _ ae

Charles Be Doll 1135

operator will produce more per hour in the aay of éarn- .

ings than another operator will. , -

And will the production of a given operator vary

ftom hoar to hour to same extent? | : ne

A. It does. “<o.. “ a oe

(). Would it. be tru& then, that # piece worker's rate

of pay doesn’t, depend on any time basis, but simply on

: .

a 2 6 e- “

what he produces

A. The piece.worker’s rate of pay basically fixed upon

a time factor, but, nevertheless,.its ‘final result is depend.

ent upon .the effori, skill, and industry of the individual

- worker. oe

Q. (By Mr. Cooper) Is there any differenfe between,

Mr. Doll, a work week.of 40 hours and a work: week of

, 2400 minutes? | | “

A. There is not. ° : .

Q. Can you say whether or not oo es

A. Mr.*Cooper, 1 would,dike to say in your former

questiOm my answer is based upon that 40 ‘hours of ac-

‘tual working time amd 2400 minutes of ‘Actual working

time are-one andthe same. thing. oo vy

Q, (an yon’ say whether or not from the viewpoint of

the hourly ‘rate worker and the viewpoint of a piece rate

worker, there is any difference ‘hetween the 40 hour week

and the week with 2400 minutes? — nan

- Fundamentally and actually there: is a very great

. difference. ‘ See e

Q. From your observation, what is it?

_. A. An hourly worker is paid onthe basis of the time .

that the employer permits him to work, whether or not he

performs any services ‘within that period, or the extent to

which he applies: himself to his particular tasks during

» that period; whereds, {he piece work -operator is very

largely a working—welt, in fact, is exclusively working’ in-

dividually, and while het working he is producing: and

earning for himself. “Wheneves —working, he .is’

neither preducing for himself or earning foy himself: °

+ Q. This may be permitted as'an informa scy-question,

”

1134 ® GhurlesE. Doll

your honor. On your observation, then, Mr. Doll; what

is customarily included in the hours of work of a piece

worker? ;

Mr. Lamb: Objection.

The Matter:- 1 will take.the answer. |

A. The hours of work of a piece worker ‘is the time

that he actually is engaged. in production.

The Master: Do you mean then that from your con-

ception of the definition of hours of work that’ an em-

ployee at yOur plant who is paid for 40 hours worked

-under the system that you use, nevertheless actually works

much less than that, because f the fact that during a day”

he takes a few minutes off to go to the toilet or to fix up

his . tools, or to relax a few minutes?

A. That is correct. er

Q. (By. Mr: Cooper) What is the Pe practice in

the pottery industry as to the furnishing of such tools

as sponges and brushes and the other tools that- have been

referred to here? / ’

4. Where the company maintains a supply > sells

them to the employees, it is industry-wide a custom ™

the employee to. pay for them:

Mr. Lamb: I ask. that the last ‘part of the answer be .-

stricken as to the— ~

The Master: I will let it stand. .

Q. ‘How do-you determine which items of equipment and

tools.and materials are to be paid for by the employees

and what items are té be paid for by the company ?

A. It ‘is based upon established practice in the in- .

dustry that dates hack long before T knew anything about ~

the industry. 4. ‘

The Masteréfgn the case of an employee:in the clay

‘shop, let’s take a jigger man, for example; he‘ uses a

scraper and also a pail, and the finisher that he works

with uses a sponge, is that. right?

‘4: 2" . : ie

The Master: And all of those items he is tequired to

buy h®mself, or was during this — at least?

A. That is correct.

Charles E. Doll ae 1ikD

‘The Master: He also has some kind of a bench or

table in front of him that he works upon?’ ~

A. He bears no expense ot. the ingtallation or mainte

nance of equipment. | ; eh.

The Master: Are there ayy other movable items of

equipment that he uses-in his work, that the company pays

for and that he-isn’t required to pay for?

A. | ean not recall anything~ that the clay shop

workers, in connection wit

This text is long and has been trimmed here. Open the source document for the complete record.

This is a copy of a public record, reproduced as it was published. It is not legal advice, and it may not be the version a court would rely on. Check the official source before you cite it.