Transcript of Record — Coryell v. Phipps
Supreme Court brief1943
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Vol. Vv S
TRANSCRIPT OF RECORD
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"Supreme Court of the United § States ane
- OCTOBER TERM, 1942 3
oe re
CHARLES CORYELL, ET AL., PETITIONERS,
| se Us. |
JOHN S. PHIPPS AND GEORGE J. ia aa
. j ° oe Sone
~
ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE’ UNITED STATES CIRCUIT COURT
_ OF APPEALS. FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT Oy Tar
PETITION FOR CERTIORARI FILED JULY 20, 1942.
CERTIORARI GRANTED OCTOBER 12, 1947.
/ VOLUMEV. =
TRANSCRIPT OF RECORD
UN ITED STATES
‘may COURT OF APPEALS ~
FIFTH CIRCUIT.
No. 10185 |
" CHARLES CORYELL, ET AL.,
na Web Bea <7 ‘Appellants,
x z ‘versus
JOHN Ss. ‘PHIPPS and GEORGE J. PILKINGTON,
po : sas onsen
‘ |
Appeal from the District Court of the United States for
. the Southern District of Florida. .
- (ORIGINAL RECORD RECEIVED DEC. 117/41.) _-
Mr. Matteson:
The. testimony fs that those that have cmmiiell the. —
ship, havp not been: able to find any evidence that there
was any such thing; while there -has been evidence of -
other braces.
-Mr/ Underwood: \
The oy has been through ‘a om:
Mr. Matteson: -. + | eee
- And Mr. Underwood's witnesses have testified that there. ~
was no fire, to speak of, in the tank Sungerqnent, at
suas in the lower part. ‘
The Court:
meee the question.”
(The last question was read by the reporter.)
Mr. Matteson: .
. The question.as to whether there was such bracing, or
not, may be a fact that you will have to determine, from.
the evidence or otherwise; but I think I am entitled - to
ask the question, on that assumption, so the opinion will —
be here.
‘ The Court: .
‘You mean, Mr. “Matteson, that there is a theory as to
2 which that hypothesis could be sustained?
|< Mr: Matteson: oe. Psp
» . Yes. ‘ re er .
The Court: , | : ees . .
_. And ‘with ‘that, you are “entitled | to an + opinion on that
hypothesis? . ee ee o
|
Mr. Matteson:
‘* Yes. ee
‘The Court:
I think that. is reasonable; scbiibde @is-aemainels: det:
_ generally speaking.-I- call your attention to this; as the
examination is going on,.I am endeavoring to réquire the
proponent of questions-to incorporate to his witness, hypo-
theses which call for an answer. On cross examination
I have now adopted a different rule, as you probably -
: have noticed. On c¥oss examination I think a witness
who is beirig examined should call attention ‘to any miss-
ing element which he thinks should: be incorporated. —
You may answer the question.
A. Sf there wets un brenis , nthe bulkhead and ¥:
‘Number One -tank, no. ! on Number Four .
tank, those tanks-would be unstable if the vessel was roll-
ing. In other words, if they weren't there, they should be.
Q. Now Captain, it has been suggested here that the —
_. fact that condensation might accumulate at the bottom of
the Seminole’s gasoline tanks, in V-shaped sections around
the inverted bottom, which if it. occurred would form a
- protecting seal Of water. which would protect the tank
against, corrosion. In your opinion is that so? baa
A... .In my opinion, if .they didn’t get water in there |
_ in the first place, you wouldn’t have corrosion...
aoe * De you Shiai ie sesotnie ef We: Wale moeld-be
any protection’ against ‘corrosion? eek
A. Well you would protect it this way; if there, was
_".gorrosion there—some water in there, exposed to the
atmosphere, you would increase the corrosion.
* -Q. Now it has been suggested, Captain, that these tanks
as constructed, and as you have observed them on. the
Seminole, in their new condition, would be good for a
- hundred. years, or for at least a period beyond ‘the life
. Of the vessel. What is your opinion with respect to that?
at
4
get fifteen
and eight years; might | |
- om. might get twerity, accofding to the |
af
ta leaking in eve
pqeieas
i Hil
t Fortuna, for exaniple, I in- ~
A
nal
the gasoline tanks. fusted~
of
a
hole you could put a derby.
a
it vas two-foot in diameter by sevén-
_ 2
ae bottom ‘you . could almost put a derby
. oe
é: nee of a hole did you say you fourid in .
eel
Fore
ih
bottom; rusted and .corroded away; that
the.
hat through
ated
There were two other tanks. leak- -
they renew all of them. :
one tenk.
~
~*
- ee
I- object to what he récommended. ;
~~,
.
(By Mr. Matteson):
Q. When was it that you made that observation? -
A. About .two years ago.
me Y
a.
sir.
That would be in 1937? ..
. Yes,
Q.
A
‘
2884
Q. Did you make a survey of the. Fortuna at - that
"tithe? . :
“” A. Yes, sir. |
Q. , Will you tell me whether she had pans under her
gasoline tanks?
- A. Those gasoline tanks were in a lead lined box.
*. Q. What ‘do you mean by that, Captain? Describe it
to us.
A. Well it was a very large box,. and lead lined; there
was a lead | that went from the box, that was down in
the bilge, enderneste the cabih ; Fo
The ‘Cian:
Do you want a ruling on that,—what he recommended?
Or, are you satisfied to let it go as it is?
Mr.. Matieson: 3
I.am_ willing .to have that stricken out.
‘The Court:
sen right.
Q. With | respect te the tanks thet you obegrved | on
“ the Fortuna, were there any access pees on “those tanks?
A. Examination plates? . ” cee oe .
Q. Yes. - . Pa poe:
A: . Two on each tank. | " Sdet|
Q: That. is all.—Oh, may I ask this one EN question;
yee Captain, you have expressed various opinions on differ-
ent things. in the course of your. examination, as part of.
the ‘Libel r. ‘last spring. In view of anythirig-that
¥ has. or you changed those views? ..
yee
/
‘Mr. Underw ates ah qe
I object to that cianaticih. your ‘Honor. eae
The Court: Z
It is Peetty general. |
2885
Mr. Matteson: 7 &.
* Well if your Honor please, I simply-—it is a very gen-
eral question,, I realize that. I don’t want to extend the
examination of this witness unduly; I just wanted to make
it perfectly clear that he hasn’t reneged on anything, that
his testimony still stands without: changes.’
The Caurt:
Well I think there is a presumption that, once of one
opinion, he remains that way. ‘
- Mr. Matteson: -
AMD right.
Mr. Underwéod: = er Re
Mr. Botts, have you any questions?
Mr. Botts: a Rar eae ee,
TI don’t think so.
Mr. Underwood: oe
You are entitled to go first, you know. |
Mr. Botts: .
I will say this, that’ I may wine to put him on with
reference to a certain matter;.but I didn’t know he was
going on this morning, and I.don’t know whether he has
_any information on the subject; and I am not going
on a fishing expedition until I find out ‘whether he is
informed on the question. ; |
Mr. Underwood:
‘It is ‘the hunting season that starts Monday, not the |
“3 |= fishing season _ J
2886
Cross Examination. ss
By Mr. Underwood:
an Captaiy Patton, were there any pans of any kind
under the tanks on the Seminole? |
A. Two pans.. :
Q. And they had rectangular angles: at the outboard
ends?
A. I think so. »
Q. Rounded corners?
‘The Court:
As I understand it, so far as on the genera! line of
interrogation now, Bred, you didn’t want to ask him any.
questions?
-
Mr. Botts:
When the witness is through I want to \ seek to him
- sand ask him— ; |
The Court:
About another particular matter you had in > mind?
Mr. Botts: ;
‘It is not-.concerning ‘the matter he has been interrogated
about this morning, ‘at all.
The Court
We did adopt that general rule] and I thought’ we would -
but of covrse I realize it is .
follow that “at this time;
something else you have in’ mind, that you want to in-
terrogate him before you did put him on as your witness. :
Mr. Botts? -
Yes,sir; it t will take about a minute, either way.
. .
7
2887
Mr. Sinead: :
Will you read the last question please?
(The testimony. last precedirig, was read‘) -
A. I believe’ ‘they were. :
' Q. ‘And Number One and Number Two: tanks sat. in.
one pan?
_ A. Yes.
Q.. And Number Three and Number Four tanks sat in
the other?
A. Yes. ‘
Q. . Is that right?
| A. That is right.. ,
Q. And the pens were bigger — the twa tanks, of
"course?
“A. Yes. ; Seen a |
| Q. So that’ there was a margin of pan all around the
-. tanks, was there not? . .° :
A. Yes; that is, the lid came ‘up. 1
Q. Did. you observe. whether those pans had. been
broken down or’ destroyed in any way?
A. Not that I could see.
Q. So.that the tanks sat entirely within the pans, <i
that right?
A. No, the tanks sat on , the wooden framework, which
sdt in the pans.
Q. But the ‘tanks didn’t extend beyond the margin
of the pan at all?
A. No.
Q, That would leave the tanks aeester inches within
the margin of the pans, is that right? -
_. A. ‘I don’t know the exact distance, but they were in-
_ side. of the lid of the pan.
— @.. So if you were down below looking up, you couldn't ,
see any of the bottoms. the tanks, could you? | |
a
2888 .
A. I don't think you: ‘sald:
Q. Well it is clear that you couldn't, isn’t it?
A. Yes. . :
Q. Now Captain I want to read you a question and »
answer that was put to you before, on Page 841: “Q.”
Could the tanks be inspected from underneath?” “A. ‘I
looked ‘in there and it appeared to me to be metal on
top of. angle irons; but you could see pretty clearly
_ all the bottom of Number One tank. .I just looked in.
there out of curiosity, at that time.” —Now is it true or is
it not true? |
A. It is not true.,
. Q. —that you could see’ the bottom of Number One
~. tank?
@. ey it true— : .
A. I thought it was ‘the tank, at the time, but I stand:
corrected on that. \
Q. How do you, account for the fact that you said
‘that you “Could see pretty clearly all the ,bcttom of
Number One. tank”? |
A. Well I twisted my neck’ up there, and could tap
it, and Leegad it was metal; I assumed it was the bottom —
_ of the tank.
‘Q. ‘Do you mean to tell me that you can’t tell the |
difference between & pan that is as big or bigger than
two of those. tanks, and the bottom -of the tank itself?.
A, Fou, a Bee 2 flashlight and went underneath
_there.
Q. You didn’t have’ a —
A. No. ;
Q. And you-didn’t go iinesth?
‘A. No, I just looked up and tapped it and found’ it
was iron, and assumed that was the bottom ‘of the tank.
‘Q. What shape was the bottom of this pan, caer
A. Well, oblong. - 4
2889 ~-
Q. ‘Well, the bottorn was flat, wasn’t -it?
i ee Se as
Q. But the- bottoms of the: tants “weren't flat, were |
‘they? .
A. No, they. were not. ;
Q. And you testified belore that they were not flat,
but concave, didn’t you?) Now how did you know they
were concave. bottom tanks’ if you looked under there |
and could see nothing but the pans? ;
A. Well ‘in the engineroom you could see down in the
pan and see the row of rivets; so it must be a. concave
bottom. _ :
Q. You now say that you cotld not. see the bottoms
of those tanks at that time? 3
A. -Not at that time, no, sir.. What I assuined was the
bottom ef the tank, was the sheet iron, the pan.
' Q. And. you couldn’t see the concaye | \bottom?.
A. Not at that time, no; not “until you ‘pulled one
out. Sac
- Q. Well now Captain q refer you to another question .
and. answer, on Page 861, of your previous testimony: “Q. ”
This. hole in’ Number Two tank, what was that?” “A.
When I looked in there I could see what appeared to.
be metgl ‘under the tanks, all. of the. tanks, excepting a
portion ‘under Number. Two tank, where-yeu-could look
up and see the concave part ‘of the tank g~—Is that. true?
n the dusk I thought -it was; in a darkness.
is was dusk, now?
‘A. We it, is dark underneath that tank. nie
Q.. And \you had no flashlight? 2
t the time I had no flashlight:
Q. Well you didn’t say, at the time when you were.
previously questioned, that. you thought you could see
the coricave bottom, did you? *
_ « A. I know it was a concave bottom, and i thought was
the bottom that was showing. ,
me) Well now Captain, are you so ‘inexperienced that ~
you. can't tell the difference between a flat bottom of a
-—pan-and the concave bottom of a tank?
. A. I-didn’t go under there and examine it; you need
overalls and a diving suit ‘to get. under there,—and a flash-
light.
Q. Was your examination of the rest of the boat, “of a
similar kind?
‘A. Not where: I. could see it plain. -
.Q. - You weren’t entirely | frank with us about that on.
~ your: previous testimony, were you, Captain? 5
_A. About the notion of the. tank? |
ie Q. Yes. ‘ he
A. I didn't think it sonceasite to ‘much.
; Q. I-see, your testirnony is frank or. not frank, depend- —
_. ing upon how. tie Baa you think the matter is; is that m :
‘correct?
A. .In a way, yes, sir,—on the tank.
Q. Oh, you limit it to the tanks, do you?
A. Yes, the tanks alone. hin
Q: Nothing else, of course? - tas
| A. My testimony is correct; but I didn’t pay much ~
_ attention to the tanks,. I admit that.- ae
/ Q But you didn’t tell us ‘that balers, did Fou, Cap.
tain?
A. I. wasn't asked, “Had I authority to go up there
and— °
Q. You did stick your head in the space underneath
the tanks and pans, didn’t you, Captain? :
A. I got down as far as I ‘could without getting all
messed : up, and: looked up.
_ QQ. Well now Captain, that deen’ t ‘quite answer my :
question. Did you or did you not-stick your head under -
_ the space below, in- - the space below ime oe and the -
pans? —
A. Yes, as fer as I. could without getting dirty.
gag.
Q. Well now you know what your head- is?”
A. I think so. 3 mS
'Q.. You know what. this space under the tanks and
pans, is? -Is that right?
A.. Yes.
- Q. Did you or ‘did you not put your head in ‘that
Space under the pans and the tanks?”
A. Yes, I stooped down and looked up. You mean,
the framework where the tanks were?
Q. I want an answer to this specific question: which
I have put to you three times. Did you or did you not -
put your head under the. tanks and the pans in that open .
. space below? ~ .
A. Yes, T went down and looked —trom down - ie.
low, up.
-Q And you saw nothing that you. recognized that |
you recognized as a drip pan?
A. No. -° \
Q. Or, a pan of any kind?
- A. No one knew much about. the drip pans at the
bottom of the tanks until you took Number Four out.
Mr. Underwood: :
‘I move to strike that out, as not-responsive.’
Mr. Botts: ;
I think it <ccecpietund the situation, hed the Court —
Mr. Underwood: . ; ;
It certainly. doesn’t, Judge; because my witnesses testi-
fied to there being drip pans under thé tanks, before
‘Number Four tank was taken out. These people have
just been' caught out of bounds, that is all. They have -..-
. Said there were ‘no pans; and I-have~ dénionstrated be-
yond any possible doubt. that there were pans;- ey are
‘there today. He says nobody knows. :
2892,
The Ceaee: .
I think that motion to strike is proper; granted —that
portion. of the testimony, what no one knew.
Mr. Underweiod: .
‘\ THat is what I refer to.
Q. Now Captain, in your examination in May, 1939,
did you obtain. anybody's permission to go aboard the
Seminole? .
A. Yes.-: co
‘ ~Q. Whose? | he
_ A. Louis Nuta’s. _[ asked him if I could os aboard,
and he said, “Help yourself”.
Q. You are quite clear about that?
A. Positive: age
Q. You know who. Louis is?
A. “Oh, yes, I know who’ Louis is. ia
Q. Couldn't be any mistake about it being somebody
se '
A. Only one’ Louis Nuta. As,
. Q. Did you mrasure the height of the ash that re-
mained in the tank compartment around Numbers One,
Two and Three Tanks?
A. No, sir. ~
Q. Was it approximately 20 inches?
A. I couldn't say. & ree ‘
Q. You.don’t know? . eoayes 4.
A. No.
Q: What is the process of galvanizing a tank after it.
is manufactured?
A. After the tank is “all built? gett ‘
Q. Do-.you understand what I mean when ts say, efter
ae el is manufactured? —
A Ve as
_—
"Q. That means, efter: it is manufactured? :
2893 —
A. Yes. They pickle a tank, to make the plating c eon, |
and then there is a hot bath.
Q. .First they dip it in acid and clean the lates, is
that right?
_A. That is what they call it, a pickle,
“Q. And they take it out of that, is that right?
A. Yes. :
'@. -And then war dip it again in soinething else, is
that right?
_ A. IT have only seen them dip it once, in acid.
Q. You have never seen them dipped in anything
else but the -acid? -
Dip in the zinc,—the galvanizing.
First they dip it in acid?
Well it is a pickling bath.
Then they dip. it. in something else?
Yes.
What is that something reais
It is mostly zinc.
_ What else js it?»
I couldn’t say; itis a shindiabiees that’s all 1 know.
Well what are the constituents of that material they
it in? |
-I believe it is | mostly zinc.
What is the rest of it?
I couldn’t say.
Don’t know?
No. ;
A. man-of your experience, you don’t know that?
IT am -not.a galvanizer,—though I have seen lots
of it done. -
Q. You are a pipefitter, are you?
A. Yes, I am a pretty good pipefitter, too.
Q. What is the effect of that- dipping in that zinc—
and other things that you don’t know? It adheres to -_
tank, is that right?
di
mane ee Sreterener
out-of various: areca of steel, plating, haven’t you?
‘and passed by chemical. test..
A. You ei vlan to the pickling, first? :
Q. No, we are past the pickling now, and I- don't
want to talk about t any more.
A.. Dipping it in the zinc puts a layer of what Puss 5
call galvanizing..
Q. Over the whale ‘tank?
A. Over the whole tank. They \also use a spray
| method too, now.
Q. Do you know at -what sampucetare zinc melts? |
. A. I can look it up in the book; I don’t keep all those.
melting temperatures in my head. — \
Q.° That is what the reference books are for, isn't it? )
A. That is right.
Q. Suppose you do look it up. I think Mr. Matteson;
has a copy of Kents’; will you do that?. ‘\
A. It is a low temperature. Ay
Q. Do you want to os aeRRER it, and let us look it’.
‘up later on? :
‘ A. No, I would sooner you would loo it up in the “4
book; that’s what I would do if I wanted to’ know.
Q.. Captain, I suppose you have seen rivets aed a
A. Yee, sir.- :
-Q.. The seine te ta Glin a Anes task. oak tN |
in the middle of the rivet head; it burns right through ‘4
in-a minute, doesn’t it? - : ;
A. Very shortly, depending on ‘the size of the rivet.
Q. The process wouldn't leave. any chise] .marks,
would it? | . :
A. No, if she didn’t bse up ‘with oe So
Q. You Rare sty Gat peceens ment on) tankers, ecg ae
you, Captain? Bt
A. Not without the tanks were thoroughly cleaned out
.Q. But you have seen’ it used on, tankers, seri you?
A. Yes, marly.
4
rd - ; 3 = . RS
y , tie * J 5 Se :
2895
- Q Of co 1 it yen were burning out thé rivets in
the bottom seam of the Seminole’s tanks, you would not
be. burning “into: any gas filled: chamber, would you?—
you can answer that yes or no, can’t you Captain? You - =
wouldn't be burning into: the. tank, would you?
‘A. No,\but you would be heating the metal. .
Q. But you wouldn't be burning inte the tank, would
you?
A. “Not” wees body of the tank, no; ‘that is. on the
bottom row. —
Q. Yes, that is what we are talking about,’ the bottom
row. How far down do you say the side plating of the
‘ Seminole is double. plated now?
-.A. I can't. ~ ‘I did look at the strake by the
window. | an ’
Q. That is the first strake?
A. Yes. .
Q. The first Tow of plates, counting down ae the
top? ;
A. From the window, yes. That is the only - one. ee
examined. No doubt she has got more in her, but, I didn’t
__ Mr. Underwood:
ai move to strike out from “—No doudt”, onward.
| The Court: es
I think that is proper.
| Rot |
Q. Did you ever operate any engines of the size of .
“those in the Seminole?—any Winton engines like those?
BA: Persenally a them?. No. I am familiar with
them, tongh.
Mr. Underwood: : :
I move to strike out the latter part of the answer, as
not responsive. :
Mr. Matteson: iy | aT
2896
What was the latter part of the-answer? as
%
(The second sentence: of the last answer was read by -
ta ‘the reporter. )
(
. Mr. Matteson:
|
I think that is perfectly proper.
-Mr. Sindlesinnes
If, your Honor -please, I asked him the Straight and .
simple quis about whether he had ever gperated Gm. ae
The Court:
‘ That is true, but I don't think the voluntary state-
ment is objectionable; I deny the motion to strike. —
Mr. Underwood: ras '
‘Can we agree that the melting point of zinc is 787
degrees Fahrenheit? .
Mr. Matteson:
Yes.
(By Mr. Underwood): |
Q. Captain, you ‘spoke of the possibility a using a
pump on the feed manifold systern, to run gas up on
deck; Go you remember that?
A. Transfer pump.
Q. Well you would have a ‘fitting where the line lead
from the feed manifold to the pump, wouldn't you?
A. Union.
Q. And you would have’ « even if you used copper tub-
ing, you would have another fitting—
A: I would use iron. P : ue
Q. Iron pipe? SNS cae SEs
]
A. ‘Yes, the same as your - manifold size, if you wanted
to get a stream-of gasoline. - « oc
Q. Iron pipe, hot brass? ~
_ That ig not a feed ine. =. ) a
A
Q. You wouldn't use brass pipe on that?
me oye ; :
Q. Why not? :
A,
might continue with, the same size and material. .
Q. ee eres mn, wee enee: Mie en <he
Seminole was made up of iron pipe?
¢ A. No, brass. 1 an speaking sbout this ere; if you
put ‘a transfer pump from this line up on deck.
. But Captain, you are indicating’ the— -
This iron pipe. By Bin,
“You are indicating the valve marked Crane 1507.
aa 5 Seeepoens, pes ete fen. pipe te best.
But you are speaking about— °
rereret
fer pump on this fitting. I have recommended that ‘on
several jobs, and it» works very satisfactorily.
Q.. Then you would have another connection where the
pipe came in contact with the pump, wouldn't you? ~~”
| A. ‘Yes. , ;
Q. And you would have various connections in the
pump? —
‘A. Just the inlet and discharge. . ;
_ Q > Those would be the only two nee where a ne
could possibly: leak? -
’ A. No;-you have a: stuffing uN there, ..
Q. You would have to manage -to Keep that tight,
wouldn’t you?
A. Sure; keep everything tight in an engineroom.
Q. Any other. place where the pump might leak?
A. No, just the one. box; that is assuming
that your — were put in a |
Well you are just contioutie. this iron pipe; You.
raleigh ye ys. ete AR ee |
2898 ae sate
Q. ‘Then you baie: your riser from the pump?
A? Going up sare: the deck.
nn Mr. Underwood: :
3 1 think that’s all.
‘ar: Botts: soe 7 | roe
__-Sudge, if you suspend a minute, so q might confer with
we this witness, I might “have one or two questions.
a
(A brief informal recess was held.)
By Mr’ Botts: A: :
“ .Q. Captain Patton, you- hha e ‘testified that you arrived
at the scene of the fire while the ‘conflagration was still ,
in progress, and remained there ‘almost continually until ;
the body of Mr. Abel was recovered?
Mr. Underwood:
-I dislike to interrupt, but ‘is this bacibaliy Patton ‘called
- aS8’a witness for Pilkington? =~
Mr. Botts: pees eke cs tia ea,
* 1 dont know, he is just hate You can put it down
any way ‘you want. to, making him’ mine or anybody
-> else's,
Mr. ‘Underwood: : ry aos
Anybody else but mine. I. think we ought to have
‘it clear whose witness he is, though. -
; > - dhe Court:
_ Mr: Botts is calling him, so he will be regarded as a
witness for Pilkington.
(The last question | was read by ‘the reporter.)
A. ‘Yes, sir. - com
ee a
9899
By Mr. Botts:
.Q.. Do you recall the occasion ‘whei the Seminole and
_ surrounding cooled down so it was: possible for someone —
to go aboard her? | : 3
A. Yes, sir. °
Q.. And do you recall whether you were with the tirst
people that went aboard the Semindle after she became .
cooled off enough?
A. Yes, sir; if. not the. first, 1 am not sure; 1 was ‘there
all the time. ne : Bere
Q. You were there at the time, and. were among the
first? | ; :
a eee. cS ion
Q. ‘I will ask you, at that time, if you: ‘Observed. the .
position of the tanks of the Seminole?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did you observe the position of the tarts: of the.
Seminole on. the occasion when the Court and counsel
visited the Seminole at Nuta’s Boat Yard in becom I
‘believe it was; of this year?
ei ees ee ees
‘Q. I will ask you "whether you can ‘state from your
observation on this occasion of your first. visit to the
Seminole, after the fire, and the visit out there at Nuta’s
Boat Yard, ‘whether, save for the tank. that. had been
_rémoved, the position of the gasoline tanks, in the Semi-
’ nole was the same on those two occasions?
Yes, sir, as far as J could see. i
Q. Well now I ask you whether you observed? i
A. I did; yes, I looked at them.
Q. And was the position the same?
“As
.Q
© >
, Yes, sir. ‘ 3 inet
! ‘T call your attention to a ec aate ss acuta are
all. in evidence?_ ie oy ai Sie!
x ey
_ Mr. Matteson:
‘I don’t think it is.
2»
2900
(By Mr. Botts):
a call your attention to a hafograph—
The Court:
Mention it. :
—Q. It isn't in evidence: — ask you if you took that
aS _ photograph?
A. _ Yes, sir.*
'-Q. Does that sitinarents correctly exhibit ‘the condi-
: tion and‘ location of the tanks of the Seminole upon your
visit immediately after the Seminole had cooled down— |
. that is, your first visit? © ae ; ,
A. Yes, sir. res. y
: afi eee a
Mr. Botts: re
We vffet it in er
Je
Mr: itaciniaidl
I take it hy your testimony, Captain, you mean that: -
this photograph correctly resiresents the position and con-
dition of the tanks when the photograph was ‘taken, ‘Au: ;
gust 13, 1935; is that what you mean?
; Yes, sir; they. ‘hadn’t mace moved wei
: Mr. Underwood:
"Mr. Uniletwood:
I move to strike out, they sega been awed any.
Mr. Botts:
If he knows it, “he can state,
P aa
1°
I have the right to cross examine ‘about it at the -mo-
ment. This was taken —- 13, 1935? te
A. Tom a. Pine er © ee BE yi
|
1. °
ee ee ae
2901,
Mr. teieeco’- |
And the tank in -Y ieceend | is the starboard tank? ;
A. I think it is the port tank. - Have you got any
more of those others? 3
Mr. Underwood: |
_ ‘The tank: at the. bottom of the photograph is the port
tank?, rieteser : ;
fon T believe SO, yes. é i a wht
Mr. Underwood: eae
Number One tank, i is that right?
- A. Yes, that’s righ. There is that mass of hyacinths
over there.
*
Mr. eterinnit
I have no objection t to the: photograph.
~ (By Mr. Botts):
Q. And you say this was licen on August 13th, and
correctly exhibits the condition immediately after. the fire?
A. Yes, sir.
eEy
' The Cokirt:
That makes it unnecessary for the Court to rule on your
motion to strike.
| Mr. Underwood: ;
— Quite. so.—What will: that number a a
cen The photopeaple so = eatned was admitted in por tay |
and filed: as oe Pilkington’s. Exhibit 16.)
(By Mr. Botts): ;
-Q. When you visited the Seidel the first time? after
. the fire, I will ask you if you observed any eviderice of
Oo
2902
". an explosion having occurred; ‘and if so, just answer, did
you observe any such evidence?
1A. Yes, 'sir.. -
Q. Now then with respect to the tank compartment, .
— did you obsérve any particular: evidence of an explosion
‘in connection with the tank compartment?
A. Yes, sjr;- the - eranecuedl were’ pushed —separated; e)
'. pushed up. |
Q: You méan, ener away from the tanks?
A. That i right.
Q. So that the walls of the tank compartment had—
A. Expanded. is : mia
Q. Bellied out? 7
A. That is right.
Mr. - Botts: _ :
That's all.
" * By. Mr. Underwood:
Q. When you say,. bellied out, do you mean that the
fair shape of a flat plate, had been changed, er that-
the two bulkheads were just further ‘apart at the top
than they were at the bottom?
-A. That is right.
Q. The latter? eo:
A. The latter, yes, sir. The ‘bulkheads were bellied -
out, including the plating. too.
Q. - -And that’s the only -evidence you saw of an ex:
plosion in the tank compartment?
A. Except for the tanks being misplaced. There must
have been. an explosion there to push them out of place. -,
‘Oi How many tanks were misplaced?
A. One that I know of.
Q. And only one that you know of, is that right?
A. ‘I would have to take—
Q. Is that right?’
ee ee
A... -I woulda’t admit but what the others were slight-
ly misplaced; but there was one—. .
Q. All I want to know -is this, Captain; a you say
that they were or do you say that they weren't? :
_A. .They were.
*.Q. The others were misplaced?
A. One, to a great extent; I don’t know abeut the:
others; I didn’t put a line ‘on them.
Q.- Let’s take them up one at a time. In the first
place, you got there on the afternoon of the fire, after ©
the Fire Department had gone; is that.right? -
A. That’s right. = 7
Q. And you say the first time you saw the tanks,’
Number One was misplaced,—out of place; is that right?
A. /, Yes. —No, Number Two tank was out of place.
Q. “How about Number One? - ; :
A. Well, comparing Number Two with Number One
and Three, Number Two was greatly out of ees I
didn’t-line up all the rest of them.
Q. Did you run a line on any. of them? —
A. No, i did not. But I run my eye and could. see
that Number Two was well out of place. ¢ z
Q. You are sure about. that?
A. ’ Pretty sure; it is a lang time ago:
Q. You are sure aren't sure, Captain; Please tell me
what it is. :
A: wouldn't trust my memory; I would trust to the
photograph. "als
Q. I can read photographs with some degree of ac-
curacy; I. want your memory. What is it, now?
A. Four years and a half is a long time to remember
<<
_ . those details.’
Q. Yes, and I appreciate vou ‘may be uncertain about
_ a lot of things. ‘Now what. is your memory on that?
A. My memory would say,. Number Two. -
Q. And that Number One was not. misplaced?
>
Nat
-
2904
A... I wouldn't. swear to that. eee =
Q.. Captain, you really don’t know which is which,
at this time, do you?
_A. ‘I will depend on the shotepregh. |
-.Q. Well, Captain, I think. it is fair to say to you that
the Court is. going to depend in some measure on the
photographs, too; but we would like—I at ages would
like to have your memory. )
A. I will say at least one tank was ‘misplaced.
. Which ene?
A. I thimk that was Number Two.
Q. Well we have got two things which you say are
evidence of an explosion: One. is the bulkheads, and the
other is Number T'wo tank. Is there anything else? .
A. No, except hearsay, and I can’t quote that.
Q. That is right.. What was it that indicated to you
that : this particular tank was out of place?
A. They didn’t line up.
Q. At what point? Are you referring to the ies
ohare the valve came through. the hole, or at the top or
where? —
A. No, that eluates that it is Number Two tank; the .
draw-off valve, at the base of: the tank, near the base.
of the tank, is.centered in the hole in the bulkhead, and
the other three are nearly so, but it is very much out;
in fact it was sheared; of, that valve, Number Two. |
_ @. Well did you observe that on the se after the -
fire? ..
. A. No, two days afterwards. We were. busy. sadness
_ ~ing her out, trying to get Captain Thomas’ body.
Q. This observation refers to- June 27 then?
_._A.. Two days after the fires
Q. Thé secorid day after .the fire? :
=o believe so. The.diver tried to get them the fol-
lowing. day .but couldn’t find them; we > had to punip her
ee out. .
Mr. ‘Uedaweek:
That is all.
"Mr. Botts:
That is all.
Mr. Matteson:
That is all I have.
‘The Court: a
: Captain: let me ask you this question; sii it is very
academic: but assuming that there | was a spark from
the knife switch. :
A. Yes, sir.
The Court:
The position of which in the ‘engineroom was consider-
ably.above the engineroom floor; and assuming that there
was gasoline vapor confined solely to.the bilge of the boat;. :
could that spark have been communicated to the gaseous
substance. in the. bilge? FY
A. Yes, sir; it has been proven by the laboratory « of
.the. New —— Fire ti dca i
Mr. Sudiewied:
If your Honor please, I hesitate to- interrupt. .
The Witness: as tae ge df =)
‘Isn’t this off. the sete? aa
The Ghee. 2 Ls =
I-just want your We
- The Witness: en
Is this going in?
- Mr. Matteson: -
Yes, sir. |
A. Yes; sir. With the strong ‘gasoline fumes in a
bilge, it might be too strong to ignite; but with that mix- .
ture of air, and him passing around through there, very .
probable that he started up the proper mixture, that
sparking of a switch made the explosion. That was my,
- opinion, two days afterwards, when I wag able to investi-
gate it., If I live to be a a old I will
always anes that is what started it. :
The Court: Fifi ie
’ You spoke of ‘a possibility of diere being gaseous sub-
stance in pockets in the bilge?
A. “Yes, sir; I mean by that, many boats ‘have web
frame, intercostals, which form pockets down below decks. :
The Court: ‘
Assuming that the gaseous substance was ‘utuns to
‘the pockets and had not been disseminated in the atmos-
’ phere, or the air, to, which ‘the spark could” have had
access, that is horizontally in contact ‘with the atmosphere _
at. that point; if the. gaseous substance was confined to
pockets in the bilge, could there have’ been any contact
between this spark and the gaseous substance in the bilge
~-in the pocket in: the “bilge? :
A. I don’t. know as I can explain that, but to my mind
the deriser gasoline vapors would be against ‘the skin ‘of __
the ship, and gradually decrease in density, to the e top.
of the engineroom.
The Court: ;
_ Well do you assume ons that. on the theory that gas
is heavier than air, and it had in the first place .de-
scended to the bottom-most part of either the bilge or
the engineroom, to which ‘it had access; is that a correct
assumption, according to your ideas. now? — |
_, A. My idea is that the bilge-was full of 4 strong g
line mixture, and so was the engineroom. ~\
2907
The Court: .
Well let me ask. you this; assuming that there was
some opening through which gaseous substance could
pass from the engineroom to the bilge, would, according
to your ideas, and your teaching and learning on this
matter of gaseous substance, and where it would lo-
cate,—-would that gaseous substance go to the bilge .and
remain in the bilge, to the point that it would . not re-
main in the engineroom? ,
- A.. The denser part of it would, your Honor. Gas can
only get so dense until it liquefies; and I am of the opinion
there was enough gasoline -in the -entire bilge ofthat
~ Seminole, that the whole engineroom was ‘a strong gaso-
- line mixture.
e The Court:
Well I am speaking about ° ‘it now from the theoretital
standpoint.
A. Well now, I don't know whether this daeela go in ~
_ the record, but the night Mr. Botts and pailler and I went.
up to the: —— ,
3 Mr, Underwood:
~ Tam sorry, I will have to object to that.
e
The Court:,
Don’t get into hearsay.
A. I was an eye-witness.
’ bs)
The Court:
That. is ali right; I want. your views from the theoreti- °
cal standpoint. _
‘A. I believe the whole engineroom—
The Court:
I am nat asking you what your views-are as: to this
particular casé; I am asking you, ‘from the theoretical
2908
standpoint; that is all I am interested in’ now; I ‘mean,
from iny questions to you,—just theory.
A. Have I answered aaa sufficient?
The Court:
Yes. Would ‘the fact that according to your iaseey,
. now, that there could be a denser solution in the bilge,
than from a higher portion, to wit, in the engineroom—
A. Yes, sir; | you might, have— -
The Court:
In theory, would that be : saaianaiaiee entaai about yy ae
some circulation of air, or some outside influence, that _
would have brought about that rising of a portion of the —
‘more dense solution at the ‘base; to wit, in the bilge,
higher in the. engineroom? _
A. Yes, sir, that is quite right;. that boat, even under
‘shed, in my opinion is insufficient ventilation. I admit
that there was some ventilation, if you were to stir that
up.
a me PERS A | Ba
T caution you, please, in answering my questions,—_
I am dealing in my questions to you, from a theoretical -
standpoint. We have had testimony here based upon hy-
potheses that there was no circulation. What I am inter- ~
ested in asking you about jis, assuming that from a thes- -
retical standpoint it was — ra eTNG, an airtight ~
situation.
A. Then I believe the gas—
The Court: :
Then. would the hae solution at the |
increaszd to. the extent ‘that the space
dense solution would naturally. be i
A. Yes, sir, I believe it would. |
*
Coe
- The Court:
Well I gather then from your answer ty» my theoreti- _
cal question, that, assuming that there was no outside
‘influence in the‘ way of circulation -of.air or heat or con-
_vection, or whatever it may be called,—nothing. of an
outside influence; if there was a denser solution at’ the
‘base of the apartment or compartment, more so than there
was at a®higher point in the compartment, it would ne-
cessarily be brought about di some outside Ynfluence?.
A. Yes, sir, . \
: The Court:
Now— .
‘Ahience would have to stir. - the thick stuff?
The Court: Raters , }
That is right. ; eee
A. - Either’ mechanical force or ventilation, or draft,
or something—yes, sir, that is quite right.
; The Court: ;
Well now is this veniiets can you. dissociate in your,
mind the mental picture of the enginerocm: and the bilge ~~
of the Seminole ag you have it.pictured, as it must have
been at the*time of. the fire, or conflagration; or what-_
- ever it was started; but picturing that it was a boat, as
distinguished from that particular ‘boat; that it was a
‘vessel, with an engineroom, and with a bilge, and with
tanks in which gasoline was kept, in which there was a
knife switch. Now from a theoretical standpoint, am I
" correct in this: that if a spark was emitted from the knife
switch on the wail of such a theoretical boat; that. either
one of these two situations must have existed. That
either the gaseous substance which in the first place was
heavy enough to descend to the bottom of the available —
@,
Teh 2010
spebnj-nthat either that gaseous substarice in its density
had increased in ,volurne.to the.extent that it had arisen
to the point even or in proximity to the knife switch; or
- else that there was a lessening of the density at the bot-
~ tom,, which lessened density had counteracted and gone
into the upper pertion, of the apartment of. the - boat,—
of the vessel, and ‘that therefore according to what you
have stated as to outside influences,. that there must have
been some method of outside influence to have brought
about thet situation? Now’ is. that a fact’ .
A. Do you want me to give my opinion?
The Court:
Yes; it seems to me that that ‘is—
A. Either could cause it.
The “Court:
rah
* x sy
" I believe either way, as you describe it, could cause |
an wapieten: ;
The Court: | j ;
- Well my: thought is that one or ‘the other must have
dope it? -Now’ am I correct in-that?
‘A. Mes,-sir; I am inclined to think that the first i thing
. happened. .
: The Court: .
‘ T am not asking. you, * Captain, which in your opinion ”
did happen; I -am asking vou, from a theoretical stand-
point, is it a fact that one of ‘those conditions must have
existed? Ss
AL: . Yes, sir, _ is quite right. .
The Court:
Now to go over that again; either ‘the dense solution —
must have increased in volume sufficiently to’ have ele-
By Mr. Bott®’ 3s} ;
2911
vated in the open apartment, to have occupied continually
more space as its volume increased? .
A. And richer. :
The Court: | ee “
And richer; or else if it was 'a fact, in this theoretical.
- case, that was a ‘more dense solution at the base, as com:
pared witly a like solution at the top,—that that condi-
tion, of a more dénse ‘situation’ at the bottom, compared
with the lighter: solution at the top, was brought about
by some. outside influence? .
A. Yes, sir. atte hor st ier
_ The Court:
. That’is all I. care to ask.
Q. In other words; as I understand it, Captain, if the
air in the surface—I mean in the bilge of this—and not
the Seminole; but of any vessel, any boat, if it remained
calm and stationary, without motion, then the heavier
"alee T
A. You said, air, Mr. Botts? 3 ie
Q. All right, .if the contents of the vessel was not
being agitated in any way, whether it was gas or air,
and thére was in that an explosive’ mixture of gasoline
and air, when it rose 'to the point equal to the knife
Switch, if the knife switch emitted a spark, it would
explode? © ; ad ett
- A. Correct. | rr tes :
-Q.. So as I understand it, if there was this explosive .
mixture down in: the— REE WER eA :
A. Bilge. eeyit Res Nae
_ Q, In the bilge of the vessel, and had risen to a con-
stant level— an ee RS es
“A. In. other words, built up.
Ee |
3 6 Fa : y \
La 2912 Bo dS, vf
. Pe ’ : A . i
= Se Equal with that of the knife switch; that some, _ oo
Boe current’ of ajr might have caused a swirl of air‘to come __
_ up and explode it, is that’ t? Pes he
"A. ~That’s right. °
Se py .
. ’ eK . a Sisk
By Mt. ‘Underwood: ee ra Nes
Q. Captain Patton, Mr. Matteson has said that I might
--use theséphotographs of his. Is. that one that you took?
Yes, I took that.
You took it on July 31, 1935?
‘That’s right. . re
~ And ‘itis a. photograph of the draw-off valve?
That's the same. —
. show you another” one; did — aay that? |
Yes, sir. .« - : LE Tia Gaal ar ean
July 31, 19357 ; eae
- That’s right.. | 2 a ae .
And that’s a photograph— Dero grecke as
Of ‘these fittings down here. bene
Tw®@ of these: fittings? .
bed fos you~ want a copy of these? -
PR No,. not. these; it. is the other. ‘Where aid you,
x eer take thesé photographs, Captain? __ |
» fra This is an old bedspread hanging on to the side” ;
* "of my car, or the window of the car: That was in Coral
—
Fevptoberererer.
Lae: Gables it was taken. ;
ae. Ce ‘These were. taken out in Coral Gables?
Avs ae a Q. At your house? Bris aieyown metre So. od
ie 3 ee 2 A: Yes, alt ; . ee
| Gress hae hang the ‘up onthe. back of your prey ox : igs bie
| ref idn’t get. them. out of the HAN / z
2913 :
Q. \ White did you get ‘bent
A. ‘Let’s see; I think I got them from Mr. Miller.
Q. Gary Miller? You mean’ you got them from him
just. before you took them?. he ie
A. Yes, sir, shortly.
.Q. “Within a day or two?
: them.
Q: I just want to get it straight,. Captain. “You got
these contrivances that are shown in these two photo-
. graphs, a day or two before July 31, “1935, from Mr. Asad
‘Miller of Fort Lauderdale?
A. I believe that's ae, yes, sir.
Mr. Underwood:
te offer those two exhibits.
: ar. Botts: aaat pt ae
: No oe so far as I am concerned.
\*Mr. ‘Matteson:
"No. objection.
- The Court: ae
: They wi ‘be admitted. Ae Nee
: ad ‘ 3 be ‘ . “~"
Mr. Underwood: |
. The first one is a photograph. of Exhibit >
_ (The said photograph was admitted in evidence: and’
ba as Respondents’ Exhibit 5- tT)
"Mr. Gadavisnod:
ahe next is a- oe of Exhibits Numbers 2 and 17.
9
A. Yes; I didn't sates them out there, I. didn’t want
(The said photograph was admitted | in evidence. and
filed: as ‘asin ia -eumcuscad 5- g).
2914
Mr. Underwood: .
- | have no-more questions,
‘Mr. Matteson:
~ That is all.
(Witness excused. ) 3
. Mr. Botts: é :
Before I forget it, I woud ‘like to offer in evidence
these two exhibits that have been marked 13 and ‘14 for
identification, and concerning which the stipulation. with
reference to testimony ‘was .offered yesterday. Any ob-
jection to these, Mr. Underwood? _I am just offering
these in evidence now that we have that stipulation yes-
terday afternoon;.13 and 14 in. evidence, instead of wal |
« identification. :
(The ‘said two exhibits” were admitted in ovdance and
filed as Pilkington’s Exhibit. Numbers 13 and 14, in evi-
dence, respectively.)
3983 ° Thereupon EDWARD S. THIBAULT as a wit- |
- ness on behalf of Libelants’ in rebuttal, was.
Sworn, and testified as follows: Rae
Direct Rintaination.
—— _>
“By Mr. Matteson: ; 0 fk
What is your full name?’
Edward S. Thibault.
Where do you live?
Miami.. .
And how long. have you lived here?
Since ’22.
é .
>OP>O >e
2915,
What’ is your business, Mr. Thibault?
Ship builder.
In 1927, where were you. sieieanin
I_was superintendenit of Merrill-Stevens Dry Dock
Company.
Q. Have you lived here céntinuously since. that time?
A. Yes.
'Q.” .As superintendent of Merrill- Sivies shipyard at.
that time, what was your duty,—what were your duties?
‘As Why I run the yard; in every capacity except
the office; in charge of all construction. ar
_Q. Repair work?
Pore
A. Repair work. . y
Q. Do you recall: a — Seminole?
A: ee
Q. Being at the Merrill- Diseinnd yard, the latter part .
of 1927? : ¢
A. Yes. ;
Q. Was she also there earlier. in the year, do you re-
member?
A. Yes, in the spring—some time in the spririg. |
Q.. Now particularly with reference to the work that _ .
. was done the latter part of the year, can ergs tell us
what the nature of that work was?
A. Renewing shell plating, bottom. shell plating, ean
‘shell plating.
Q:. At that time—who was in | charge of the work on
‘ the Seminole?
A. .I-was:in direct ‘cial with the foremen. of the
different Classes of -work.
Q. Mr. Thibault, in connection with that work that
was done at your yard, were the gasoline tanks removed
from the Seminole at any time?.
‘A. No.
QQ. Was any v" ok gone on the gasoline tanks of me.
Seminole?
2916
A. I don’t ‘think so. ;
Q.. Was the side plating removed from the ship?
A. Na, eit..--°
2
Q. You spcke of renewing bottom plating... What part
‘of the ‘ship were the bottom plating renewed? ®
A. When we Started git, we started to remove the
bottom plating on the after end of the ship, under the
engineroom: and back there;.and when we got aut we
‘found we had to renew- practically the whole bottom.
Q. Afterwards there was some done. in the - forward
part of the too, you say? |
_A. Oh yes.
Q. Were tha floor frames, —were the floors and fratnes
'. under the engineroom and the tank compartment: forward
" of. the engineroom, removed at any time?
A. Why forward of the enginercom,—forward of the
mairr- window, where the water tanks was, we did: renew
some pieces of frames; but not in the after part of. the
boat at all.
Q. _Was any work of that character done in, the space
under the tank compartment, or in the enginerooen?
A. ‘No.
Q. What was done with ‘culgnet ‘to the ‘ide Plating
of the Seminole?
. A.“ Why we. originally was going. -to renew “the guard
irons, some ‘of the guard bars; and after we ‘got -them
off, the top of a sheer strake was bad in spots, so we_
made it double, put another plate right ‘on top of it;
made. gocd connections and put-a guard bar on.
Q. Was that side plating that was covered — new
_plating—was that removed at all?:
A. The old plating: was not removed.
Q. Was the bulkhead between the enginerooni and the —
tank: compartment, removed? | \
_ A. No. awe - ats
Q. Were the engines taken out of the—main engines:
taken out. of the enginercom? | ee .
2917
A. No.
Q. Was any work done on the fuel piping ‘in: the € engine-
room?
‘A. Not’ that I recall, that dee was seins done
with that piping:
>
® t
kb.
%
The Court: perme
’ Was she a coai or gasoline boat at that time? Was she
a coal burner at that time? — :
Mr. Matteson:
Gasoline. ,
Mr, "Thonipecn:: Se
1922, your Honor, it: is in evidence she was changed.
| Mr. Matteson: pees Bees : tie tn ae
This is 1927 we are talking about.
Q. Was any electrical work done in the ship?
A. . We might have done a little, but I don’t remembet
what it was. _ don’t. think any great amount.
The ‘Goieet: ; :
The witness spoke just now about water tanks, Are
‘you referring now,—did you -mean the gasoline tanks,
when you said just now, water tanks? -
A. No, sir, I meant water tanks.
The Court:
Where were those tanks?
A. In the forward part. of the boat-
°
'. (By Mr. Matteson): :
Q.. What was done in respect to the water tanks?
A. Why after we got the plate off the bottom we found
there was stops of the frame that was bad; and to zet
a
2918
in there to do the renewing, to renew the plate, we had
to juggle the tanks around in there, move: them from
place to place so we could work.
Q. You say. some repairing was done on thé frames
"there?
A. Some slight, on a few frames;: ‘put in a few patches.. |
Q. The space where these «water tanks were, was that .
forward of the space where the gasoline: tanks were?
>O>O>
A. ° Yes, it was forward.
Q. Were the big cylindrical gasoline tanks of the Semi-
nole taken out of the boat at that time?
No, ‘they ‘weren’t taken out.
Were the water tanks taken out?
Just moved around?
Just juggled them around so we ‘could work around
them, undérneath.
_Q. There has been a suggestion, Mr. Thibault, that the
gasoline tanks were taken out and laid on the ways beside
_the ship, and that the bottoms of at least two of them
- were taken.out and replaced. Will you tell us the fact
with respect to that? .
_ A. No, we didn’t take them out or do any work on
them.
Mr. Bots 3
Will you read the answer? Es
(The answer was read by the reporter.)
: (By ‘Mr. Matteson):
Q. Was there any work done in the way of raising the
level at which the gasoline tanks of the ew, -stood —
at that time?
A. No.
Q. “Now Mr. Thibault it has tien: senate that Mer-
rill- Stevens did not = any proper or. a¢curate recosd
P >
POO Pe! ee ee ey ae ey,
2919
of the tine of the ; men iteuiianen on that sie or pen
they did.’ -Will ~~ tell us whet records were kept at
_ that time? . ' me
Mr. Underwood: font ss
We object to that on the ground that the records are
the best evidence: ‘
Mr. Botts:
We are riot asking. the contents of the records.
‘The Court: : |
Overrule the objectign.
A. . Go cand?
Q. ‘Yes, go ahead and tell us. what the records ‘were.
A. We sage a —— there of “daily time ~ for each
man. -
Mr.: Underwood:
I object to the system; the question goes to the records
kept on this particular job...
‘i. Matteson:
I think we are - entitled to seers the sy stem.
Mr. Underwood: it
I don’t think so.
ae) ‘The ae
“You would have to tie it - Up.”
Mr. Matteson: ‘
_ Yes, we are going to ‘tie everything uP as. far as it
can be.
»
2920
Q. Well let's confine it to this particular job, Captain. 3
- Will-you tell us what system you had with respect to,
; keeping time and records of the work done on that job? —
A. Each man made out a daily time slip, with. ie.
description of the job that he was. doing, ‘and the time
that he, spent on” that job. His foreman that was di- |
rectly over him -took the time slips each night, went -
over: them; .if. he found ‘any discrepancies he would
- straighten it up with the man; and they were turned into
‘my office and I went ovér them. If there was any nota-
tions on any of them slips, there was any question about.
it, it was straightened _up before it went into the Ac-
_ counting Department; and by ten o'clock the inspector
on the job got a copy of the previous day’s work,— | —
time and materials, storeroom slips and-so on; so if there .
“was any question about these things, they was there to
catch it.. And if\they were all right, there was no ques-
tion about them, he okayed the slips, and he kept one*
‘copy, the other copy went into the office. And as I under- |
. stand it, the bills. was made. up from them seas fh time
slips. ene syeres sie ,
Mr. pda : be |
I object to what he understands as to how the bills:
were made up, and move to strike it-out?
. The Court: |
You mean to say ‘Mr. Thibault that that ‘was saiaaibe
_ done, or what you understood was done?
A. It was dohe; there is no question about that. It:
‘" was done. r tera
The Court: - |
You are not just. deecribing the ——. but what was
_ done-on the Seminole job?.. - ee
A. The bill was made up from them daily reports.
2921
The Court: 7
Overrule the’ a etia
“(By Mr. Matteson):
Q. Now to whom did you refer ‘when you ea _inspec-
tor?
A. Captain re the owner’s representative on the.
, job. . : ° :
* Te Cae ce ; ee :
_ Wait a minute, read that answer.
(The answer was read by the reporter.) ,
es (By Mr. seine
' Q. You said something about at ten o'chock, ‘the rec: 3
ords was ready for the owner’s representative; what. did.
you mean by thgt? ag | Ties
Mr. Botts: ©: pees ‘.
’ ‘He said by teir o'clock. :
A. -We iried to have ‘them,—thé office tried to have
‘them out by ten o'clock, so that they would know what
time to go into.the office to. get them; and if they didn’t
get in there Shortly, _ tae were hunted up and handed |
a copy of it.
Q. Ten o:clock, what day?
A. Every" day, of. the’ previous day’s work.
Q. I show you these documerits, comprising Exhibit
4-L. I* think you have- séen those before?
A. . Well I don’t know whether I have seen them be-—
fore or not. If there wasn’t any question, these bills
‘would never come to me.- These originals was made up—
Q.- I am not referring to the system at the time.
- Have. you. seen these before, these particular papers, be- |
. fore this minute, do you recall?
_ A. No, I don'’t.: |
out. -
‘Mr. Underwood: Be er eee
bacesiut to Exhibit ‘a. geeks ae
Q. “Well then, will you took at them at: ‘tell us 5 whet
they - are?.
These are ‘copies of .our daily time slipa: the hours,
daily time of each ‘man, independent: When they make
up these bills, they take ‘it, if it is carpenters, two car-
enters or four carpenters or five carpenters, they would ,
’ take the total time and ‘put it on the bill; otherwise it.
would be too long, to. bill each individual oe on the
bill.
Q. Now “Mr. Thibault are those the bills saipiaeiiice
the work that was done on the Seminole in the latter
part of 1927, beginning June 20th? -
A. Well we hauled that boat out first for a aan.
originally, in the spring some time; I don’t know whether
it was.April or May, somewhere along there; and we
- made a survey and ordered materials. Then the boat
didn't come until the latter part of the summer; August
I guess—or September: . It says here, — 25th hauled
Q: Mr.” Thibault I call"your atienkion to the fact that
as you go through these bills, under the labor charges,
where you have, classi ication of labor, such as carpenters,
helpers, electricians, boilermakers, or what not, in practi-
~'
_ cally every case thére is after the labor. charge, a state-
ment evidently—-for.instance the word, staging, after car- .
aren what does that indicate?”
A. Well that is building staging; that. there woule be 7
staging, building: staging to do the work on. :
Q. Did these designations. indicate the kind of work
on which the men. were engaged during the time for
_ which the charge. is made?
A. For that day, yes.
- 2993
Q Well teking these bills ‘as a whole, do the dute-
- nations placed on the labor charges in the bill, correctly
' show the work that l was done by the men? .
A. Absolutely. . :
Q. . Now it has. pane suggested Mr. Thibault on this
particular job, Merrill-Stevens had no supervision of the
men, but simply assigned a.certain number of men to
Captain Nelson, and that the work of the men was done
under the directign of Captain Nelson. Will you tell
us what the fact is with respect to that?
A. The work was done under my supervision. I didn’t
see. every rivet that was driven ‘or every hole that was |
drilled or every nail that was driven. We had foremen -
on the job,.and while Captain Nelson was the owner's
representative, and inspector on the job, we done. the
work and put in the kind of plates that~he designated.
.. As-far’as having direct charge of the men, Captain Nelson
didn’t have any direct charge of the men. — —. |
_ Q And who kept the records of what ae men were
doing? ©
. A. .Why as I say, we kept them: aan, ‘made up’
these daily time slips, and gave: Captain Nelson a sopy
of them every morning.
Q. .Are you still: connected with Merrill. ‘Stevens?
A. No. HN
Q. When did you sever your ‘connection with them?
A. The spring of ‘34.
Q.. Do you know where the original records tren which
these bills were made up, are now?, Do you know?
A. No, ‘I do not.
_Q. Mr. ' Thibault, if the Seminole tanks, it. the gaso-
line tanks of the Seminole had been removed from the
vessel and deposited on. the slipway, and was later re-
Stored to the vessel, would there have been any -charges
that Merrill-Stevens would have made for that. work, that ..
would have appeared om: Geter.
a 2924
\ -
A. " Absolutely. | .
Q. What sort of changes? Lol eiet
‘A. Well, charges the same as on this other one.
“Charges for hoisting, if we had had to femove plates or
frames te. get them in), it would have been mentioned. If
we did move them out, there would have been charges
for steaming,—freeing from gas, which we had_no facilities
for doimg; we would have~had to send them out. We
_ didn’t ‘have steam enough tq do. it.
Q. You would have had-to send the tanks somewhere
else?
A. Somewhere where =~ hac a | steam plant, to steam
them.
Q. Would there ae any eines tor transportation of
the tanks? lag es stk vi
Ae Absolutely. |
Q. Would aay be any. charges for. steaming the
tanks?
A. Absolutely, there would. At
Q. About steaming the: tanks, what does that amount
to?. ;
Well they say that clears them. :
I mean, how long do they have to be steamed?
Well, that: is problematical, I guess.
What was the usual practice?
I have never seen any that were steamed out that .
ae aaah was absolutely safe to put. fire around them. —__
Q. . Well is dove the usual method of freeing them for - ..
work? -
| A. I think so, yes. _
Q. Do yeu know how long it takes to steam them?
A. No,‘I couldn't say. .
Q. Do you remember Mr. Simimon?
A.’. I. believe I have seen him, I don’t know that I
ever spgke to the man in my life. I have heard of ©
hin: ; iS
> OP O>
205
‘a Could the eunattia tanks have been removed from
the Seminole, through the side or bottom of the vessel,
_ while on the ways; without the side plating or the =—
* frames or plates being removed? mc
’ A..No, sir, they could not. .
Q. Would itvhave been practical to ‘have removed them
>»
through the bottom of the vessel? - rey
A. No. : * : : ° , t a
Q. On the ways? ~~ aaah
. oS Se . ee ae bgt
_Q. Why not?. . :
- A. After you got ther, down you had no ‘place to get
them out.
- Q. You mean the vali
A. The keel of the vessel was not over 4) 4,—between
-414 and 5.feet off the ground, in thie first place.
Q. And, there wasn't room? .
A. The railway was there in the road.
Q Were any trays made to be ae under the tanks .
of the Seminole?
A. No, sir.
Q Were there any, ‘trays placed under the tanks of
the Seminole? | 7 |
- A. - No, net at Merrill- Stevens at that time.
Q.. Would it have been possible to place trays ‘under
the tanks of the Seminole without first remov wing the
_ tanks?”
A. I don’t: think so. -
_ Q. Can you give us any idea with renpect to the rela-
tive cost of removing bottoms of the tanks, of the Semincle'
and testing—examining the tanks and placing them back
and re-riveting them.—the necessary incidental expenses
that would be inv olved, as compared with the cost of new
tanks? - |
A. Wel] even if. you placed : new. cale you would
have to go through the same — to take the old
Dons out. \..
ai
ae
~~
‘
\
.
Me : An ee eons 2926,
ae “eo “Without the. ‘aicatiare ra abies she ihe or ‘out, of
“.'. +. gourse you would have: that; but- including. the expense —
-:, 9) of Steaming, and ‘taking rivets out, re-riveting them, what- ©
' . _everwas needed in them, could: you: give us.any. idea of
“ ot the relative cost* of that Si eee as + against the cost of if ;
Si, tahks? - a Gece pps eee
Bey) ee don't. ism that ti can. -|. /
Peat Q.- Do you remember whether. there were any zine
. plates: placed on the Seminole at> ‘that time?
ee A. -Yes, sir. 7 | , }
S ?"@. /Can-you give. us. any: idea of “the humber. of them? .
: A." No, 'I don't know ‘as I know the umber of them. ©
: the. shaft logs and over the shafting between om shaft/log
ee oe and the, ‘struts; sus over the pegs ; tay
a
|
<
“~
. Mr. elicciend ie owe Nees exe ogo
1 am ‘sorry, i can't ‘hear you Mr. Thibault, 3
_ Av I say, there’ was: plenty of them: placed over the
-Whetls\ and’ on the -struts and on the shaft log, that
- project, from the hull that the shaft came through; beth
sides ‘of ‘the boat,. you know; it’was a twin-screw. ee
-. Q. Were they pinned at ay per, parts ‘of the Rie 7
e that-vou-Pecal?™ | TO
<A: No; 1 dort. sha a
_ —'Q. If -the rivets. were taken“ out: -of the bottom. at the. .
‘
. Phete was, plenty. of them placed’ around the: struts ' and’ ~~
. tank, and then the, bottom of the tank were ‘replaced and > |
“a re-riveted, can you tell us. whether or not the same sized
SS rivets. would be. used? A f a
we A. No,. sir, they /w ld ‘have, to. ‘be larger rivets.
7° NS Pave. to |be’ a‘ larger fivet? ©
aie © Reamed for larger-rivets..
tk ee ae ‘would, that be? - fe
‘ / A, ° Well: most” of the holes, when, you dite a rivet,
a hot rivet--into a hole, you swell your material enough
that” when you drive that cold riyet out of there you de- =
j } os s . he . 7 ? Z
| ae . : ents ae , ' ee
" ; f —— 4 vas . © oe ” ye
dex ‘ ig “3 ‘ 7 ’ .
. .
° , > \ On ae ‘
es 7
face: that hole more or ‘less; so you would have to ream
‘them and use a larger. Size rivet.
Q. Were you at one time employed by the Gibbs Gas.
_ Engine & Fower Company’.
_ A. Yes.
Q. Did you have something to do with , the construc- |
tion of the’ Fortuna?
A. Yes. . :
“Q. What ‘did you Nene to do with that? he
"A. Well I was superintendent : of construction, at what ae
time, —Gibbs Gas Engine Company... ~°" ~
Q. Do you rememher the type of gasoline- tanks that
. “were placed: in’ her?
A. They, were brazed steel tanks, ‘called. the Jennie
Steinway. poet
Q. ‘Were they cylindrical wee Se ie es
| ie, Se pte
-Q: And they were galvanized, do you remember?
A. I don’t remember. . °
Q. -Did--you afterward have something to do with the’
! building of the Fortuna? a
_A. Yes, I-lengthened her out, here in Miami; about .
_. seven feet on the ae. pi gare :
Q. When was that?
A. 25 I secetied fall of '25..
Q.. Was any change made in her gasoline tanks at that
" , - time? - peed.
4 Mr. . Underwood:
/
=< No, mr 72. Ps
T didn’t" hear. an answer tc ‘that last’ question.
“(The last question and answer were read by. the. re-
es Porter.) pe hae } /
-Q. Did the giterations affect the part of the boat where’.
_the gasoline tanks were?
hey No.
2928
Q. Gasoline tanks were not disturbed? |
A.. Not disturbed.
Mr. Matteson:
. That's all.
. Cross Examihation.
‘By. Mr. Botts:
\
\
Q. Mr. Thibault, will you tell us what is the nature
and extent of your experience as a shipbuilder?
‘A. Well I have been at it over 50 years.
Q. And where did you get your early. experience?
2 A.. I learned my trade ‘as a ship carpenter’ in, Marine
City, Michigan, in: the Wm. B. Marley plant.
Q. ‘And have you ever worked for any of the larger .
-Ship-building companies? ®
A. Oh, yes; I worked for several of the ‘tae com-
Bar worked for’ Wm . Kraft’ & oe
Q. Philadelphia?
. A. Yes.
Q. ' Hew long did you work for them?
e
A° Oh, about three years, during the Spanish- Ameri- .
can War, and after.
Q. What, kind of work did you do?
A.: Av that time I had charge of the iining, that is
what they call the lining; that is laying out shell plating:
lining out plates for the shell plating. |
*Q. You were in capacity as a foreman or apeeTen-
7 @ent of that work?
s A. Not’ superintendent; they ory to call us “five- eight-
ers” in “those days. 7
Q. Did you do any loft work?
"A. Oh, yes.
Q. What do you’ ‘mean by that?
“A. “Well that is: taking thé architects’ drawings - and
? offset of of the, vessel to be constructed, ane reproduc- |
iv
2929 | Pea ered ee
_ ing nae full size for getting out .the shapes, forms and
6.08.
Q. Now then: you stated that: you : oaliee for the Gibbs
Gas Engirye Company and for Merrill- Stevens in Miami.
“Did you ever work for any of-the other boat building or
: i dock companies in Florida?
‘In Florida?)
“e Yes:
» A, No. | :
Q. Didn’t’ you work for Merrill-Stevens in Jackson- .
ville at. one time?
‘A. I worked. at Jacksonville, ‘but that is all the same
company.
Q. But I distinguish between Miami and duabienae ilie.
How long. did you work for Merrill- Stevens in Jackson-
‘ville? °
A I came down to Suateeenitie in the fall” of 1986, oe
finished up their drydock, and I stayed with them,—I
was to stay with them ‘two yeats, but F stayed nearly
‘ three; then I went into a little boat — place of
my own.
Q. Operated your own establishment over in South
Jacksonville?.
-A: “Yes; I. operated that until the war came on, then
., the Shipping Board came in there and took every a I
had—my machinery.and my lumber and my - I
_ was doing all the: essential work,—yacht work; pe Nin
_that is. what I hooked up with. the Gibbs Gas Engine
Company. .
Q. Well you howe been in the ‘ship building and boat.
building and repair. for over 50 ‘years you say?
Mr. Botts:
rt Over 50 years. ie hh
ca
_ That-is all.
a
«
e
. _ By Mr. “Matteson:
2930
Q. Are you employed by anyone now?
A. I am working on my own hook now.
Q. Doing ship building? | 3
A. Boat work. -
By Mr. ‘Botts: ; |
. Q. Trying to get back to where you, were before the
_ Government caught you?
WA. | Yes. ©
‘Mr. Anderson: segs
That is a long way off.
By Mr. Niahionen
Q. Just one more question, Mr. Thibault. - Would it
have been possible to have done work on these tanks on.
' the ways alongside of the Seminole? ._ rind
_A. ‘No, sir. SR pedem igs : ae
=: ‘Why not? -—
A. Wasn't any room on the ways. Another thing, we-..
wouldn’t monkey around with gas: tanks close to where
. men was working.
Mr. Matteson: -
That is all. _ = Pie
|
( ‘ecm the ican was recessed until 1:45 o'clock
r. sat of the same day.)
Friday, November 17, 1888, 1: :50 o'clock P. M.
Hearing ‘was reconvened -pursuant- ‘to pe hoon’! recess,
and the witness ‘THIBAULT ‘resumed the stand and
further testified as follows:
s Thereupon: ;
2931 —
‘s Cross Examination. - | aa
By Mr. Underwood:.
Q.. Mr. Thibault, how do you happen to be here to-
day?. , ra ies
Why, _Mr. Matteson over there sii me to come. —
When did “you make his acquaintance?
Oh, some time abouf® a month ago.
Who introduced you to him?
Captain Patton.
When did you meet Captain Patton?
Oh, I have known Captain Patton for several years, |
I don’t know just how long.
Q. When did ig first talk to —_— Patton about
this case?
- A. About’a month ago, when i asked: me. _
_ Q.. Have you seen any of the records of the Merrill-
‘Stevens Company with cerca to the work that was
done?
A. When? ° iS
Q. Since 1927. Lo Saas ie
* No, only I have seen them here. this morning. —
A Sa Sit Gus
- The Court: puting | 2 es
Talk a — louder. ¢
ee Only that I seen here. this morning.
Q. Referring to this batch of bills? ; oS eH :
AL Yes. . a can
Q. ‘Exhibit 4-L and perhaps this little batch of bills?
A. -Yes, I imagine. 4
Q. Exhibit 4-M: Now you looked at these for about
five minutes this morning, didn’t you? ;
A.. That is all: pies ees ‘e.
Q.¢ And that is the first time you have s seen those ills - Sey",
singe 1927, is it?
et
eee
2932 :
oe don’t even an know whether I have ‘seen: them in
1927.
Q. At any ‘rate, if you did. see eats s in 1927, ag didn’t |
see them until this morning? .
A. Not until this morning. ;
Q. It was in August of 1927 the Seminole was hauled iis
out on the marine railway, was it? -” :
A. It was the latter part of the. summer, some time. ~
- Q. And it was on the marine railway, and not.a dry-
dock; is that right? .
A. Railway drydock. ;
- Q. But she wasn’t in a 1 proper dr ydock, was she?
A. It is a railway drydock; — is a proper sccoesta
a railway drydock. . - :
~ Q. Yow mean; it is.a combination? -
A. Theft is three-kinds cf drydocks; a graving dock,
floating drydock, and a railway drydock. -
Q. Suppose you tell us what fhis was?
A. This is a carriage that works on rollers, that =
down in the water and floats the boat. on m; then . pull
her up out of the water.
Q. You mean that she is placed on the carriage of
the railway svhile afloat in the water? .
A. Yé@. aG
-Q. And then she is ‘eenied out?
A: She is hauled out, cradle and all.
Q. ‘There isn’t any structure out of which the water
-is pumped? Paes
A. No. | :
Q. Such as in a, eid speaking, drydack? |
A, 2am
Q. . How many ist marine railways were there at that
~ ~time?
i oe.
Q. Were they side by side?
A: —
|
2933
Q. a far apert- were . they?
A. Oh, I imagine the number. one railway at that time
was four or five hundred feet from number two; but at
the same time they were digging a slip for number three .
railway next’ to this number two. Ae
Q. Which marine’ railway was the Seminole on?
A. Number two. |
Q. Do you remember how long she was on the marine
railway, out of the water?
A. Oh, I imagine she was out here eight or nine
weeks.
Q. You did. quite a lot of steel work ‘on her, didn't
you? |
A. Yes, sir, we did.
»
Q. I think you said that included the otto’ and side
shell plating, is that right? ~
A. Bottom and sheer strake ‘shell plating, yes, sir.
Q. Suppose you tell us just how far up,—start at the .
keel and go up; how far up did ‘you work?
A. Came up from the.bottom to the turn of the wan:
: where places were bad; arid then the sheer strake, which
is the top strake on the boat;. the top strake and the main
hull structure. ; .
s
Q. Is it your recollection that you = off: any plates
below the sheer strake and above the bilge?
A. No, took none,—removed none of theni.
" move any of those?
A. Absolutely. eas
Q.° Quite clear about that? ,
A: Quite clear. —
Q. Have you refreshed your ‘recollection from looking.
at any other papers of any » ea
a, ae
Q. And you are not at all site that you. ever saw
these\ | bills before, is that) right?
Q. You mean your recollection is that you didn’t re-_ :
2934 .
*
A. No, sir. ee
Q. You: now have no recollection of ever seeing them?
A. No, I can’t say that I have.
Q. How. many men were employed in Merrill-Stevens
* plant, approximately, _— the late summer and fall of .
Meer :
A. Oh, we ‘robably. had between 50 and ee ah.
Q: And how many jobs besides the Seminole were
_ done between’ Aughst and tons the balance in that '
year? .
‘A. I don’t remember that. |
Q. That was the busy season an your business out
there then, wasn’t it? :
ae ‘that same time we were: building them ‘steel:
sheds, and also building number three railway. |
Q. Have you any idea now what other jobs were in
the yard -at that time?
' A. No, I couldn't remember. :
- Q. Can you remember the name of- any other vessel
that you worked on at that time, during that interval?
“A. Not unless someone called my attention to. it.
Q. What was the shape of these tanks. that you ‘worked
’ on in thé Seminole?
A. Cylinder tanks, water tanks. We didn’t work on
any ‘gasoline.
Q. You say they were cylindrical tanks?
A. Yes.
Q. Sure about that?
‘A. I. am almost positive. of it, yes.
' .Q. Have you any recdllection as to what their capacity
A: No. Say sua Sy.
~Q. What did you ‘és to them? .
A. I didn’t do anything to them but ‘te take the piping
away so we could work around them, to get at the
rivets and the x shell plating. .
ey
-— Where were they?
A. Under the- cabin floor and the hence end of the
boat.
Q. Did you do | any “work on the top side. at ali?
A. Yes, we put a double. Strake and new guard: irons,
“new guard bars. >
Q. Apart from the steel ‘work now on the passenger’s
or crew’s quarters, or on the deckhouse?
' A. Yes, I believe we did do some. general. worlgall over;
around in different parts of the boat. °
Q. Do you remember what that was?
A: No, I. can’t. ember the details of it.
Q. Did you do any work on the anchor or the anchor. -
’ chain? ,
A. Possibly, I don’t know.
- Q. Do you remember that?
_. A. I don’t remember that, no; I. wouldn't ‘remember
. that. little item.
- Q.- Draw the tail:shafts?
- A. I wouldn’t swear to that. |
Q. Don’t remember -that. .What was, the deckhesid ‘of
the engineroom constructed of? fa)
A. The what? ; ete:
Q. The deckhead of the éeiginaroorn. The deckhead;
' do you know what that means?’. | :
‘ ‘A. I don’t know what you mean.
-- Q. Well- what was the roof of. the enginerodm con-
structed’ of? , |
A. .I guess that was a ‘wooden deck, I believe.
& Is that your recollection?
' A. - Yes: may have been steel beams.
-Q. ‘Were you in the tank compartment where. the gaso-
line tanks were? . .
/ A. |No.
~ Q.. Do you know what ‘the: roof of that compartment
_ Was constructed" of? cos
“Ne...
. .
.
_—
9936, ee tee \
Q. Do you know. what was a thé en-
__—ineroom?
A. Nothing I believe except hint had ‘been a skylight ae
sometime or other, over the a just an open :
deck.
Q. Ydéu mean there had once been a skylight there
but there was no skylight at ‘that time? ;
A. I.believe when she was steam, there was a sky- |
light. there. . : ‘oul
. @.- But af the time you were in cher, there wasn't
any skylight?. : Srivep
..Not that T° remember. ny
What was above the tank - compariment?
The Captain’s stateroom.
You remember: that? :
Yes. / =
Did Nelson live on the boat while you were work-
ing « on her?
* A. Several men on the boat; whether they wie there
night and day, or not, k don’t “know.. ‘They were on the
boat in the day. ;
Q.. What other steel wotlk did you do besides steel
.- plating?.
- A; Why we patched up some frames, renewed som
bad frames in the forward end of the boat; put new guar
bars around her on the top strake. That-is all the steel
‘work we done. “I think we done a little: rail. stanchion
" work; maybe 4 little general repairs, and something like
’ that. I ‘wouldn't remiember them little items.
Q. You say you patched up some ‘foment
'--A. Yes, forward.
Q. Do you remember odelshs frames: those wefe? ;
A. I don’t remember which ones, but they were in the
forward part of the boat, under the water tanks. . r,
Q. Under the water tanks? —
Aw, Under the water.
~~ or ‘>
generer,
2937
.
Q:. Do you remember . ‘whether you patched 9 Ss any
frames any place. else? |
A. No, I don’t.
Q. Sure about that?
' A.. Absolutely.
—Q. How long since you have been ae by’ Mer-
rill-Stevens?
A. I left the spring of ‘34.
Q. What was the occasion of that?
A. Well I just left, I just wanted to change.’
Q. What have you been erties since that time, Mr.
Thibault? | ‘ ge:
A... Well part of the time I wasn’t doing niin par-
\ ticular; part of the time working on my own hook.
~\\ Q. What are yeu doing now?
\ A. Rebuilding a_ boat.
‘Q. Whose boat? :
- 3 x Belongs to Peters: 60-foot sight-seeing . boat.
Q.\ Do you have a plant of your own now? ~
A. \No, rent space in Nuta’s yaent basin. Serre
Q. Where? = Ocal xe
A. Nu 's yacht basin. , ,
Q. How old are you Mr. “Thibault? orl
A. Seventy,—past. .
Q. I would like to have .it a littie clearer, ‘just what
your job was at Merrill-Stevens Sl
_ A Weill was General caer eam in ‘shares of all
operations in the yard.
‘Q. Were you in charge of the construction work that
was going on for Merrill- -Stevens as well] as the _— of .
vessels?
A. You mean, construction work in the yard?
Q. Yes:
A. Ne, not in- shiiuiee of it so ‘much, except a
that.they were doing. it according to contract, that’s all.
~ Q. Was that your job? .
——
a nt ee .
See hs 2938
< a % poser We ae es
~Q > Was your. job. to/ seé hat. number * thre
railway which was being const ructed then
‘A, \ Absolutely. - ;
-Q. . —was constructed senting’ to the plans? —
_ A. “According. to my plans. that I made myself, .
_@.. What was this other job that was going on?
A |
Q.
Building them. steel, sheds.
perly ‘ constructed? aaa Reems. \
AS Absolutely. | Or oye rk Sp
Q. How many sheds were there? $e:
_A: Well there was about 56,000 square feet under coyer
es “ion there. They are practically all conriected; asad run
eee ary rent sheds, but they are ‘all. uncer: = ‘oof, aia
Q.* All. steel. framework? | ae ; :
A: All steel... . ; | ; Tso
‘/Q. You inspected those things every day, did: ‘you? ~=--
/ A. Absolutely. Put in our own foundations, contracted
_ for, the erection of the building. . |
-Q. Now did you have’ occasion during that summer
and fall to do-work on other boats. besides the Seminole? . ©
-A.- Oh, I believe we did. We always was doing work,
on other boats. ;
' Q. Some of them would. be\ afloat I sins
A. Some afloat, Some in dry storage, some in: wet.
; storage. rise ned PE
—" Q.. You did work ca vessels that were afloat, as ne as oN
vessels that. were dry? ° < : ae . oN
~ A. Oh, yes: . : ie
.. Q - Were‘you personally in charge of all the work that
- was done on.all those vessels, too? -,
". A. I was. the General Superintendent. I didn't see _
every. nail ‘that was driven or every hole that was bored
’ or every. rivet that was ‘pat in; that. was an impossi-
_ bility.” ae,
» . Was it your job at that time to see that they were \ a
: .
afams . pon Soe Sere
: -
a. Fe
a . ai = 2939
‘ Q. "Were ithe gasoline emia: taken out ..of. any other
boat between: the first ‘of. sien and the end of Decem-.
“be, BE
_ A. No;*no gasoline tanks were taken out of any ‘boat,
ho gx we
° Did ‘you o take a gasoline tank out of 3 a epee
. Yes.: ahs ‘¢
Quite sure “got didn’t do it that eit oe
_No; I took a gasoline tank out of a boat. this year.
_ Well I‘am thiriking about 1927/Mr. Thibault. Quite
sure You: didn’t take a gasoline tank out of any boat at
merere
'- all: in that year?
- é ing?
_ A. Not. that I'can remember. There might -have been.
.some little boat there that had a five or ten or a fifteen.
gallon tank that came out; I wouldn’t pay much. attention | -
to that.
‘ @Q. Then you might have taken a — tankout of 7
some, boat? Saat
A. We might. have. an
- Q. You don’t remember whether you did o or not, is that’
right? . : task *@
+ ha I don’t know. ihe ‘isthe
Q. I suppose you were around the ont. every day?
‘A. Every day. ;
. Q.. All day, every day? ; eae i
A. No, I can’t say that I was right | in the a all i.
every. day, but I was in the yard, most of the time e a
day. ~
. Q. Did’ you inspect every job every day? 3
A. Absolutely. ie |
' Q. No question about that?
A: No question about that. :
_ Q. Who was the foreman that you spoke of this morn-: ~
A: Well we had a gang ‘of. ‘the iron atin bins a
‘Jacksonville; a man by the name of Reinahan was. fore-
2940
man of that crowd. Then we had A. -R. Saruis that was -.
_ foreman of the carpenter gang,—laborers, ;
-- Q Do you have only one gang of iron workers?
- A. Well, what do you ‘call a gang? cs
- Q. Well, whatever the- terms are.
A. A gang can consist - two men or it can consist of
fifty, ‘men, .
Q. Well. you had one’ foreman’ for’ the steel. work, did :
_ you?*. :
A. One foreman for the steel worker's, yes. tape
Q. ‘And. you might have’ had» several gangs working -
under. a eee ’ :
"A. We had two or three gangs. ef Hiveters, and we >
al lay-out platers, that. lay’ out the plates, and fellows
to punch the holes, and so on.
Q Then if steel work was’ going on ‘elsewhere than on
the Seminole, one. foreman~ would -have charge - the
. Semingle and. the other — too? A
A: No. “a
Q. ‘That is not right. Wall what is right?. You tell me. .
A. .Well if we had other jobs of steel work going “on,
"there would be another foreman on the job. .
Q. -Did you have snore than one foreman tnere that
fall? SP ae See
OME That- all. the steel week. we done.
s “Se--Fiom the first of ‘August until the end of: apasene
ber, is that right?
A. Yes.” :
Q. . What was his iinet
A. Callahan, or Reinahan; he come out of the Jackson-. a
Be ville yards; they sent the steel working crowd down here ~
from Jacksonville.
_Q.. .Where is he now, do you know? ;
A. I suppose, in Jacksonville, I imagine. ©
Q. Now you say these men kept their own time?
2s ; ve : <6 a
/
cee
—. 2941
A. No, sir, I didn’t say they kept their own time. They
made out their own time slip, eonmetnan it to their ‘fore- —
man. -
‘Q. - That would be.Callahan, or’ whatever his. name ‘we?
- A. Whoever he was; and they checked them over, and
they were returned to. me.
Q:. Every day? ” ae
A. . Everyday. - mM
Q. - Now is that the ordinary routine ~ are talking.
about? i
A. Absolutely that is the ordinary: iwatine, every day.
Q. What was the routine’ on. the Seminole, do you re-
Bt member that? |
A. The same as that, exactly, wy day. °
Q. Sure about that? i "3s
A. Absolutely. S heoes :
Q. And do you mean. that you would. are them over
every day? :
A. Absolutely. ie
. Q.° Every time slip in’ the ou?
A. ‘Every. time slip in the yard went ‘throdgh my —
hands before it went inta the office.
Q: at were the working hours there at that time?
A. AKight hours a day. -
What time did that start arid stop?
A. From eight to twelve, twelve-thirty to four-thirty.
Q: ' Four-thirty you would get all these cards?
A. -Yes;-I woufd get them at four-thirty, no, it would
be about five o’clock. .Lots of times I wouldn’t get through.
with them until eight 9’clock the next morning, because
. I didn’t have. that kind of hours; I went to work at ‘seven
o'clock.
Q. You looked over _— ‘thee card?
A. Every one. ..
. Q. And what did you ‘de ‘with them? —
2942
a: After I satiafied myself. precy were - okay, they
were turned into the dffice. _ | ‘
“ Q. Okay in what respect? .-
A. ‘That. the times were right,- and the charge to the. ory
‘right job, that particular. part of the job. —
Q.. What do these time cards look like? |
A.’ They are printed slips, with the location for a man’s
time,—his straight time‘ and ‘overtime, and so on, on: it;
a place for a description of the: work that he worked on,
and a place for the number of hours. :
You indicate a slip about eight inches high?
No, I imagine they were about 4% x 7
Four and a half by — fs pace
Something like that... | =
_A man had his name. on there? oe
Absolutely, it had a name, a job that he worked on.
The name of the boat or boats that he might work
on that. day”? .
‘Name of the boat.
The number of hours on'each? —
pore n
Wha: élse?
Wasn't .anything else ine him to put on.
' Now the foreman, ‘what did. he put on? Anything
> at all besides his okay? ;
A. Foreman looked over them and okayed them, and
if there was anything they couldn't hea he made a no-
tation ‘on that time slip.
Q. In the ordinary course he wouldn't put on anything
but his okay, unless there was some discrepancy? si
A. If he was satisfied ‘they were ail right, he okayed |
them: if not, there was a notation made on that particular
slip; and I took it and the next morning we cleared it up.
‘Q.. The ones there was a dispute about, you looked at?
A. I looked at them all and had to okay them.
Q. You had to put your okay on every one?
_A. Every one.
a —
. Yes. ia ‘ , Si 2
Nae cea
'’Q.- How many would there be in the course of a day?
A. According to the number — men. r
~Q..- Well how many? :
hey Well we — have anywhere—
At what day,are you talking about? —Fix a-day. SoS Suita
é ?
: (By Mr. Underwood): -
3 Q.. Can you fix a day? © Ais
A. Certain’ date? No. —~, againb
Q. Well what som an average day be? sisie? many
time slips?
A, _ How many time slips? Probably ‘about fifty.
Q." The Superintendent of the yard looked at every
one?
A, Absolutely. every one of them.
~Q. What did you do with them?
-A. I turned them into the: office; that is —: they.
made. the bills out by.
Q. Did you ever see them again? i
. A. Not necessarily. :
Q. Did you have anything to do with the aenewes up —
. of the bills? ;
‘A. No, nothing in the world. .
Q. You never have ae ‘in the Accounting Depart-
ment, have you?
A. What?
-Q. You: have never been a part of the. Accounting
Department, have you?
‘a. Me: %*.. =
-Q. T still don’t quite sntieanel’ the purpose of your’
putting your okay on these daily time slips. Were you
in a position to check each slip as to the number of hours
each man put on each job? Were you?
A. Absolutely. -
Q. That is to say, if. John ‘jo. wry, ‘put down.
eight hours on the. Susie Bell, and his time slip came
- to you for your ckay, you would know whether he had:
put eight -hours on.the Susie Bell?
A. I would absolutely know if that. carpenter had .
eight hours on the-Susie Bell; I would absolutely know it.
Q.. And you would know it from_what?.
A. From my own experience, and knowing how to take
care of the men.
Q. If you had fifty men in the yard working 4 ona par--
- ticular day, whose time slips ‘you looked over, you would
know of your own, knowledge when you came to check
“-over those time slips, how many hours each man _ put ,
.-on each job?
A. If I wasn’t sutistied—
Q. Is-that right? -
A. Just wait-a minute.
Q.- Well I.am not asking, you about, ‘if, you are satis- '
fied. Will you read him the question, ‘Please? .<
’
a7
Mr. Matteson:
If your Honor please, I think: the. witness is entitled to
answer it and make his explanation.
_ Mr. Underwood:
a
Well, to answer it, certainly; but. he hasn't. answered. §it.
Mr. Botts:
© 3 ‘You didn't give him a chance to. answer it..
Mr. Underwood:
. He wasn't answering..
‘The Court:
Will you read the question? “
(The last question was read by the reporter.)
A. Can I answer that. in my owh way?
The Court: | vo.
Yes, sir.
A. If I had any doubt, in running over ‘them time .
~slips, if there was any doubt in my mind, then I took
that time slip, went to that man’s. ‘foreman and that
‘man, and we. got it sc fterccuna! out right then before it
_ was okayed.
(By Mr. eleiaod: ; Ne
Q. .Well I am afraid you havea’ quite understood my
question, Mr. Thibault. Suppose youthad fifty men.work- -
_ ing in the yard on a particular day, one of them was John
Jones, a carpenter, and he was working on the. Susie
_ Bell. At the close of that day would you get a time
. slip from him which says, “John Jones, Carpenter, Susie
- Bell, eight hours”? -Would you know of your own knowl-
edge that he had spent eight ‘Doura: on the Susie Bell?
A. - Sure. :
@ Would you remember, at the bine of each ns, what
time he checked in the morning . and what time he checked
out at night? _
A. Just a certain time he had to theck in; he couldn’ t
check in any other-time. °
Q. Suppose he put six hours on the Susie Bell and two |
hours on some other boat, on his time slip, would you
know of your own knowledge what time he left the one
and went to the other? © 7
: es expect: I would, because I would be the, fellow
_that would assign him’ td the job. |
Q. It wouldn’t be the foreman? .
A. Nat on jobs liké that;.I did that myself.
Q. So you want us to understand, do you, that at the |
close of each day, you would know how many hours ° ©
each man in the yard had spent:on each job?
?
A. After checking up his time slips, yes.
*Q. Well, only after checking up his time slips?
A. Sure. -
+, @ De you remember how mu uch of the bottom plat...
: ing you renewed?
_ A. .No, I don’t remember. I know the total number :
of plates was somewhere around ‘seventy, on the job, a
Q.. Were. they ‘scattered all over the boat, or all con-
‘centrated in'one section?: .
A. On the sheer strake, they went all. the way sroundl
the boat; and under the bottom, on the end, I think of = -
the ends of the boat, there was ame left,—some of the
old: plating left. —
Q. Well you: said saitatiiiaes sent snowing plating “5
under the hottom, forward. Do you remember how much
plating you renewed up there? ay
‘A. I don't remember the exact number of plates, ni __ Se iar
Q. Did you renew the bottom generally, forward? ‘' a,
A. Yes, generally. We ‘opened up quite a big body \
of it, I know. . roe a,
Q. How: much amidships? © _ |
A. Some of it run back amidships, cia ran all —.
on the bottom. a
Q. And how about aft? Ree Seas ray
-A, Same way.’
Q. Well let's see; how about: thie strake _— to is
. keel; did you take all the plates out on-either side? .<
A. I don’t remember whether we took them all out or
Q. Well did you take out any under the gasoline tanks?
A. T don’t even remember that, but .I imagine’ we did.
‘Q. Take out any. under the ee |
A. . Oh, yes. e
Q. Are you -sure about that?
A. Yes. .
Q. Doe you remember how pare that was?
ee -
Bor atl
_ ia
A. Pretty general under the engineroom, I believe.
peice tery again Sen kaypliont es 4 ganged tence
all out under the enginéroom,; would you?
’
A. No. . Ste
Q. He yeu semtinber whether she had a generator in
. the enginercom?
A. I don’t know. whether ‘she did or not; Thad noth-: —
tng to do with that. -
Q. Take out any plates under the seceded? .
A. I don’t know. Tiet te te the engine’ T exp:
‘pose, and I expect we did. . :
) Took out” any ponies under the engines themselves?
I think so. 2
But you didn’t. toke up the engines? a
"No, we didn’t take the engines out. AES
“Do you remember. how the engines “were bedded?
That has got nothing. to do with the plating, how -
the engines are bedded. They don’t touch the: Wed
_ Q Do you remember how they were? §)) })) °° >
A. No, I can’t say that I do. Mei cc!
-Q. Well how did you get: to .the plates, under the en-
gines, to rivet the plates back on? va
\A.. There is plenty of room under there; them engines
. are ‘probably that high. 2
a >pperes
Practically. about a Boot? ©
Yes. .
A man could sate under aiaie without any trouble?
Yes.: ;
Since we have been discussing this, Mr. Thibault, . .
have you. thought of the names of. any of the other |
that were there from the first of August to the end of >
December, 1927?
_ A. “We had at that time : ecnieiinadaie a hundred boats
in the yard; I don’t know that I could.‘ T might offhand
Ororearn?
the yard was full of storage, at.the time.
“2948
,
. . c
name a few of them. We piobellty had a hundred boats;
-
'Q. Have any of the photographs of the Seminole been
» shown to you recently Mr. Thibault?
A. I think I have seen a couple; some time ago, ‘down
there around Nuta’s yard; they was showing some of them
pictures. Whether it was Pilkington’s yard, I don’t know;
‘I have seen some of them from — but I don’t re-
> member who.
-Q. Then as I understand it Mr. Thibault you haven’ =
seen the Seminole since. this 7” was done in MOST catty,
1928?
A: Oh, yes, F have seen her lots of time.
' Q. I mean, to work on her?
———
_- WA. No; I don’t: ‘know that we ever hauled her out after
that, or not. She was hauled out a.couple of times a year;
I don’t remember when the last time was.
'Q. You say she had been surveyed in the spring of
. 1927?
A. ‘Yes, if I remember rightly ‘they. went over it and
_we made them up a— .
Q. I am sorry, but I am afraid _ reportér is having
difficulty: in hearing you. *
A. in ania tk Ginee Sox ucla tank GA lan
plating and angle bars and so on, like that, which we - ,
expected, and after we hauled’ out -they found out they
'. ‘had. to remove extra plates and had to put double that,
if. 1 remember rightly.
Q. Do you remember who made that survey?
“A. That was made directly under Captain Nelson’ s
' . Supervision. .
Q Anybody else participate in it, & as far as you kno
“A. He was the man that said what was to come
We gave him the men to help him. “ax oa
Q Did you go over the job with him at that time, to
decide how much plate to get, and that sort of thing? .
>
e
Yr
. A Mee I think, if I remember rightly, w we made him up
a plan showing the number of plates, so he could submit —
to his owner, the number of plates that had to be re-
moved. |
Was’ there’ a. survey. written up?
I don’t remember. ;
Wére the plates marked and numbered?
‘They w were on this plan, yes. e
How long since you have seen that apt rae
‘Ihave n ever seen it since. Q
. |Then you! don’t remember doing any work on the*
Sentaaie from the time you f'nished this = in 1927 or
early 1928, is that right? ;
A. No, I don’t remember. whether we ever hauled het
out after that or not.
~Q. Well when did she next come to your atterition. in
any particular way?
A.: Why I don’t know, unless when she. burned up up
there at Lauderdale. ys
. Q.. You on reading about that in - the news:
papers” I suppose?
A. Yes. .
Q. Then the Seminole was next pore to your at-
tention when Captain Patton ae on you about a model:
ago? i
| Aw: No, Thad. seén. her every day for the last couple
of years.
- Q. I mean, ‘the next time you had any conversation
about her?
A. Oh,I guess I have had conversations about her with
‘different people, in an offhand way I guess; I don’t know. .
Q. About the work that. was done in 1927?
A. No. |
_ Q. You hadn’t considered this 1927 work since » the time .
the job was finished, until Patton called#on you? :
. A. mt not” ‘in rad bcemcacuec aide I don’t suppose I
_ have. . @
pperere!
Q. Hadn't discussed it particelenty with h anybody?
-A. No. —
Q. Well what you have given us here today is your
_recollection after twelve years, pppronipately?
_A. . Well it is very easy to recollect.
Q. Is that right?
A. Yes. ~
Q. Unrefreshed by any written ‘doventaie: and you ates .
"gan thinking’ about that work for the first. time. when
Captain Patton called on you snes a month ago; is that
‘Tight? apes
wan Yes.
Mr. Underwood:
That is ‘all.
"Re Diret Exc nination.
Lous
‘. By Mr. Matteson:
Q. Mr. Thibault you said something about it was ony
to recollect; what did you mean by that? ,
A. Why Dbecanee- th ‘wera job ent of the oninecy’for™
that yard. We had no facilities ourselves for doing steel
work, and it was the only real job of steel work that the
yard over.done. That's why it is easy to recollect it. =
Q. You spoke of: several men being on board the yacht
"ot Ce Cl he week wes Conn. Do you refer to merp-
bers of crew? —~ ,
~ A. Tf remember rightly, there was an engineer aboard,
and.some of the crew aboard.
Q. Do you reiember who the engineer was a} that
time? Sy =
A. I. think it was a man by the-name of. Brown.
Q. Do-you remember any. of the others?
A. “No, I don’t rememiber any of the.crew’s name.-
id
¢
sy CARES SARA A eR Mgt ete s |}
*« . a
‘ : | ee ; 2951 ‘ ‘ .
Q-. Thewe plates that wore renewed of cours ti abe
to are these on the outside of ‘the oy.
phetegy absolutely. .
Q. On the outside of the frames? -
A... Yes, absolutely. . , : i RS
Mr. Matteson? Be ee:
«* That is all. us
ee Mr. Gidea:
have a man.both outside and — didn’t you?
A. Yes. a
. er Usderwend:
. That -is all.
By Mr! Matteson: PA»,
_ Q. Of course, whenéver you do any eaninn- you have
‘to have a man on each side? Sos
A. If you rivet, ‘yes. a ick Bh, e
Q And the man on one. side operates the hammer,
_the.man on the other side holds— _. ° . :
A. The “holder-on”. -
*Q. ‘So thé “holder-on”’ holds the tool against the rivet,
to hold it in place? :
¢ AL rg head of the’ rivet. | * ia 4
Mr. Mestenns: : 2 at PR bs
| That is all. Sy 3
é oe ah
(Witness excused.)
‘ ; a k - : Sa) ®
'. In order to rivet the- plates on the outside, you have to"
4026 _ Thereupon ee BROWN was recalled ‘as --
me . Witness on behalf of Libelants, in rebuttal, “and
further: testified as follows:
Direct Examination...
‘By Mr. ih basis
-Q. “Mr. Brown, were you en the Seminole in 1927 when |
the Seminole. was at the Merrill-Stevens’ yard for ‘some
- work, in the latter part of, that year?
A. “Yes, Samy
© -Q. What .was your position’ ‘there?
_ A. Chief Engineer. :
Q. Were you there during the whale period of the re-
pairs, in the litter part of 19277 ;
“Ah. Fe ee : :
Q. Did, you receive pay, were you on the payroll I
mean, of the Seminole, at the time?
. A.” ¥es.
Q>. ‘Were there any. other members ‘of the crew on
_ board” :
A. Yes, ‘there were several that I remember ,—that I
recall. ° ~-/.. :
-Q. Do you. remember who they were?
A. The Captain. and myself, and ‘my oldest we was
on.—that I know. definitely.: I couldy’t swear ta the other
names, but. there: was several of thé deck crew ‘retained.
/Q. Was that =e the whole = fala of a,
A. Te. * :
Q. In the course of sbéut 2 what part of the year did
that work begia, do you recall? /.
er ees don’t: recall exactly; along during: the ‘summer,
se it: seems; the latter part of the summer. ;
Q:. Now during that period of repairs. there at the |
yard, were ine gasoline. tanks of the. Seminole zemoved ae
from the vessel at any time? : ae
co .
2953
Gasoline ‘tanks?
Gasoline ‘tanks. ae i Sa
No, sir. &. A
Was =the position: of the gasoline tanks anges
No, sir.
prerer
Were the tanks elevated, —that is, put in a higher
position, two or three feet?
A. No, sir:
Q. Was the bulkhead separating the space. where the
tanks were, from. the ee. removed?
A. Re: 2
Q. Were there any rave installed under the ‘tanks in”
the Seminole at that time?
A. None whatever; TEMG. that job?
- Q. During that job.
. A. -No, sir. -
| a Were the engines nemayed, —the raain engines of the |
. - Seminole? —
A. The: main engines were. not moved; no, sir.
--Q. Tell me what work was “done in’ and about the
-engineroom ‘ during the ae of the - ‘Tepairs that I
_ speak. of?
A. I pulled the generating set, which is a small Win-' |
ton, from under the Engineer's room, and:set it out just
to the port side of the port main engine. Of course that
necessitated making new timbers ‘for her, and bolting it.
in; but that was just simply moved. from: one position
to the other, to ‘make it more accessible. Put in a-new .
_ workbench; and-a small. auxiliary set wds built,—I built
it out of some pieces I-had around there,—an old engine
and an old motor that I used. . '’
*-Q. Who did the work in moving the oniicann’
A. Well I did-most of it. myself, with the help of a.
‘ man from the yard, for a while; possibly two men for a_ .
while; that is the yard,—the Merrill-Stevens furnished. I——
would say one or two men for one or two days, me:
- for a short time, to. help on the job.
-Q Any of the inline of the crew assist you?
A. Well I worked that boy of mine wherever I could -
work him; he was poasibly helping too while | we were
Beg mae Ks
In connection with the moving of the generator,
ry that involve any ey or changes, ‘anything else
in the engineroom?
A. No, 1. wouldn% say any changes that did mot affect
the generator itself.
Q: Was any electrical work done?
A. The generator wires were possibly a ceptete out,
a matter of seven or eight feet.
: —Q. Was that all? ‘
_ A. .That’s all. “ :
Q. Were any sheng made in the — piping from . |
the tanks? —
A... The only change in that generator of mine, tekite
- out the old lirie and running. a_new line to the new ‘posi-
tion.
Q. Was the gasoline piping renewed at that time?
A. That part was; I put in copper — as I remem-
ber it. ie :
Q. For the generator?
A. For the generator.
Q. Any. of the rest of it —
A. No, sir.
Q. Prior to the time that you: went to Merrill- Stevens
for repairs, had you had any difficulty in the gravity’
feed of gasoline from the tank to the main engines? |
A. No, sir. es
|
/Q. Was thé side plating of the ‘Shninite remove in -
the way of the engirleroom and tank space at that time, —
any of the side plating?
A. -No, there. was no: side. plating removeg.”
Q.--Was there some bottom plating? sein ve
— A.- Yes, part of it... tah
Ee PORT hy Aan
of
2955
Q. Were the floor frames or plates removed under the"
—— or tank ——— cee
A. No, sir.
Q. With the side plating in place, and the floor frames 4
and plates in place, it: would have been possible to re-
5 move the gasoline tanks from’ the Seminole oP the
bottom or sides of the ship? .
A. No, it wouldn’t: — :
Q. Was any work done on the gasoline tanks at all
oe that time?
A. None whatever. | :
‘Q.° What construction of the vessel was over the tank
_Space or the space where the ‘gasoline | tanks were, can
you tell me? _ fa:
A. Amidships there was the after end of the. forward
_ deck house, which was used as a Captain’s cabin.
>
Q. Can you point that out on aes — which we have
here, Phipps Exhibit A?
A. There is. your tanks, erigineroom and the. tsinks; é
across here would be the Captain’s room;.it set directly
above here. It seems. to.bé a little bit long,’ but the
Captain’s room would come right about in there some-
where. That may be just right; I guess it is. “
Q. And the Captain’s room to which you refer is ‘the |
room that is marked “Captain’s Stateroom” on the plan,
on the upper half of the sheet, is that right?’
‘A. That is-right.. This is ~éai forward deck. house; or
_the.music room as we called : a
_Q.. That is forward of the Captain's Stateroom?
A. - Forward of the Captain’s stateroom: and this. Cap-
tain’s room extended back to the smokestack, which .we
installed at Palm Beach; we installed a tvilet and wash.
stand and shower bath and the smokestack; that extended —
out in here. — ;
Mr. Dahiwbed:
_ In the engineroom. '
2956
-@* » Was there any ‘opening ‘threugh the tank. space to
the Captain's roont or the deck over the tank apecet
= » Ae
Q. Was any part of' the deck or the Captain's cabin,
ever the: tank space, removed at tate time, during this
period ‘of repairs? ;
- A. No, sir, there was none of this removed; no, none
of it. .
Q. Was there any means of access to the tops* ‘of the .
tanks through the Captain's room or through the - deck,
over that space?
A. . No, sir.
Q. No way of getting at them at all?
A. No‘'way of getting at them at all. .
Q. Was there any. way in which you could, get. at.
-the air vent-lines on the tops of the tanks to do -y a
work on them or inspect them?
A. No, sit; they were forward of the engineroom bulk
head.
Q.. And. under ‘the Captain’ s — er the deck, as you
described?
A. > Yes.
Q. It has been suggested Mr. Brown that during this -
- period, between midsummer .and the end of the year, .
_ while these repairs were under way,. that the’ gasoline
tanks were removed from the vessel and that two of them
were laid alongside of the vessel, on the ways, or on
the dock, and that the bottoms of at least two of them
were removed so that the interior of the tanks could be
examined. Will you tell us what the fact: is with es
to that? .
A. The .anks- were removed and placed?—I think it
has been covered, hasn’t it?) They were not removed.
Q. They were not removes.
Bee
Q. Then the work that I described was not ¢ done?
A. No, sir.
?
cae a oe Ne es
Q. During that: period did you ever see a pile of rock
or residue or. any other substance from those tanks that
was piled outside the vessel in any place whatever?
- A. From the sexe
Q. Yes. : ;
A. No, sir. . .
* Q Were the main engines removed—
' A. Removed? | * ’ ;
am * Yes, were the main engines removed or disturbed
in any’ way?
-A. No, sir, they weren't swea even in the engineroom.
Q. If the bulkhead between the engineroom and the
tank compartment had been removed, was there any-
thing in the engineroom: that would have to be moved out
of the way. for that to’ be done?
A. Move the bulkhead?
Q. Yes, if you were. going to move that bulkhead out,
was there anything in front of the bulkhead you would
. have to move out of the way?
A. There was a workbench, and bilge pump; one of -the
auxiliaries; log: desk, which don’t amount to much; and a
set of batteries, ;—two ‘sets of Edison crpucincs against the -
bulkhead. |
| How were the batteries fixed with respect to the
bulkhead?
A. They were in shelves. that were fastened in some
way to the bulkhead.
Q. Mr. Brown do you x the passageway that
ran along the starboard side & this ship beside the engine-
room?
‘A. That is ; this one..
Exhibit A?
A. Yes, sir. .
Q. Do you remember that passageway’?
A. ies, sir.
' Q. - Marked “passage” in n the lower diagram on this plan, :
Q. I ‘want to ask you with respect to the bulkhead .
that ran along that passageway, separating it from the—
separating the -passage from the engineroom and from
the space where. the tanks were: the. side of this bulk-
head, the passageway side,—can you tell me whether that
was sealed, or whether there was song — ‘work or
. paneling or woodwork on it?:
A.. That was a steel bulkhead, with ag seams showing
« into-the engineroom; that is the frames were on the .en-
gineroom side. It was perfectly _ in the pnareny. :
Q. A-plain seal? :
A. Yes; yes, sir.
Q. Painted I suppose?
A. Painted. — |
Q. Mr. Brown it hes been TEENS here that on the
Seminole there weré four two-inch pipes leading from.
the deck above the engineroom down through this passage- 3
way, in the points that are marked with white dots on this
exhibit.’ Do you see the ~— bo
A. Yes, sir. ane
Q. Were there any such pipes,—I might add that these
pipes terminated on the deck above, with gooseneck fit-
tings, so that they turned over and faced down to the
deck, and that the pipes lead down through the passage,
to the bilge of the enginercom. “What is the fact with re-
‘spect to that? ° . 9 2
A. They were not on there when I knew the ship.
Q.. Not up to the time you left mer?
_A. No, sir.
Q. Now it has oe ‘hem suggested that there were in
the exgineroom of the Seminole, four similar pipes on the
port side, leading from the deck above, and finished on -
- the deck above in the way I have described, leading down _
into the engineroom on the port side, in approximately
the locations indicated by those white dots that appear
én that side of the diagram. Will you tell me what the
fact is with — to that? ;
A. Thay, werd itt -cebia T wes! thoes ae tiga
_@. Mr. Brown there has been’ somie testimony about “-
the. necessity of priming the engines of the Seminole. Will
you. tell us from. your experience what necessity if any
there was for priming the éngines of the Seminole?
A. . Well they were slow speed engines, air. starter, and
it was necessary to give them a little gas in the priming ~
cups, which were furnished, one on each eylinder, to start’
_ the engines. whenever I started up from a cold start.
Q. Was it necessary ‘to prime them when they were
_ warm or hot?
_ A. No I don't remember ever priming them when they
were hot.
Q Did you find it necessary to prane them when they
were hot? -
A. ‘No, sir.
ef -Q Now. with respect to priming those engines, oni
‘much gasaline would be negate or be used to prime a
single cylinder?
' AA teaspoonful would be oiiticlauh, possibly be 1 mare
than enough..
Q. What’ did you, use to prime the cylinders with? |
A. An ordinary squirt can.
Q. What was the capacity of that squirt can? .
A. Between a half and a pint; - possibly a half pint
Z would be nearer to it.
Q And. how many primings could - you get out of a
squirt can of that size, for the engines of the —
when it was necessary? ;
A. > Well-I don’t konw as I ever measured or seas .
the number of times, but I would say, several starts.
-Q. Several Starts out. of one canful?
A. Yes. - , | as |
Q. Did you have two cans, two squirt cans in the en= ——
gineroom when you were there? . er aa
. As Two— a ere mee en eS ae
. — Q--Squirt “cans? i)
a pee ©
‘; A. Oil and gasoline; I only had one gasoline can..
Q. In connection with that work at. Merrill-Stevens
in the summer.ang to the end of the year-in. 1927, can you
tell. me whethét the cabin on the after upper deck was
built at that time?
_A. No it wasn’t built at the s same time we did the bot-
tom work.
“Q. When was it built, do you know?» .
A. I couldn't give you the date, but it seems it was
the summer: “previous.
Q. Was there any cabin built on the Seminole in con-
nection with this work at Merrill-Stevens that year, 1927? =
A. No I don't. remember any.
Q. Have you made trips on the Seminole to the Pilk-
ington Boat Yard at Fort. Lauderdale? | é ees
A. Yes,-I think, one.
Q. And can you tell us approximately the difference
from the mouth of the river to Pilkington’s yard?
. A. Three miles would be a fair estimate. -— oe
' Q. Do.you know a place. ‘there called the Bend,—re-
ferred to as the Bend? — )
A. Below town, or above town?
7 Q.. Well I imagine it is below town:
Mr. Underwood:
I object to that as leading’
A. ‘Well there is a Tarpon Bend below town, ‘and there.
_is another big bend; I don’t know Which one he is refer- |
ring to. . a
Q. Let's call it the lower ‘head.
A. That is Tarpon Bend. ;
Q. That is above the mouth of the river?
‘A. That is above the mouth of the, river aac a ‘short
distance.
- Q,° Can you give | us an estimate of the amount of gaso-
line that would be. required to navigate the Seminole
~ FFor the-meuth of the river to Trees s Boat Yard?
2961 :
A. ‘ot over twelve gallons; I wouldn't think it “would
take th.t much; but I wouldn't say over twelve gallons, --
"depending on conditions: --<
'Q. Why do you think it might take as much-as that?
A. "Just depending on how many times it ran aground,
or how much handling they had.on the bends. ~ |
Q. Now it has been suggested here, Mr. Brown that .
the construction of .the Seminole was such that she was
quite rigid, and was stiff, ‘and would not have much mo- |
tion in her hull jn a seaway. What can you ‘tell us about
that?
A. No motjon in the hull? - In the framing or the—
Q. In the hull or the framing; in the structure of the
A. Well, sir I have seen her in a blow when the Captain —
and myself were the only two that stayed with it; the
rest of them were so seasick on account of miotion that
they couldn't stand it; and the cabins would be weaving
to such ari extent that you could see the* movement, -
especially the forward deck .house, which we called the
‘musi¢ room.
Q,, Well in ordiriary operation, laying aside storm con-
ditions, can you tell us whether that would be noticeable
to any extent? —
_A. .No I don’t say it would weave in ordinary condi-
' tions; but where you would really get a roll and a pitch,
you could notice it. Zh
Q. Can you tell mé whether or not, there- were any
.. Noticeable virbrations from the engines of the Seminole.
when they were in operation? _
. A. I, wouldn’t say, from the engines, any more than
: from the. entire vibration'set up by the engines, you could
- feel it through the entire hull of sae Teese the en-
tire ship.
-. Q. Did you notice any effects on the equipment in the
engineroom, from the vibration you have spoken of?
or
Mr. Underwood: :
-I | abject « that as onlteg. for a - conclusion. Se
Mr. Matteson:
Talking about observation,
(The yuiestion was read by. the reporter at the direction
af the mre :
The Court: i \
oS Ae overrule the objection. 3
A. ‘Well. sir we did have quite a number of little jobs
come up, which could be attributed to vibration; such as
- loose joints, such as that. . 2
' Q. What do you mean. by loose ‘Joints? Toose joints
where? 7
_ A. First ‘one oe and then another; Ro es have -
water .piping and gas piping and exhaust pipes, and such -
as that. It is part. of the engineer's job to -keep up with
that stuff, and at times it got tebe quite a job. \
Q. I think on your previous examination \ rt Brown
you ‘told us the extent. of your experience on. gasoline
_ boats. Will you tell us, from your experience, \ whether
‘or not it isa common thing in gasoline boats to \find it
necessary to. tighten pipping, inciuding fuel piping; a, .
.. looseness or leaks?
_ A. It depends a great deal on the installation. te Wee
average boat you don’t have that trouble. |
Q. Did you have that. on the Seminole?
A. Yes. - | .
Mr. -Matteson:
a 2963 *
Cross Examination. t ileW
Q What kind of engines were. they Mr. Brows?
A. They were Wintons. —
Q. How big were they? : ; aN
A: - Rated at 125 horsepower each. Phe
Q.. Do. you remember the size or .weight?: (1c
A. No, sir, I can’t remember the exact bore and stroke
on\those engines. Soa :
. "@ Do yeu know how heavy they were? Te eee
A. I donot.
Q. Remember how many revohitions they! mad ¢ at: full
speed?
o A, They made around 360. to 70, full sean — the
‘wheels we had on her when I was on her.”
Q. + Would it be eight-inch bore? Sotetteas
A. Would be—? > BSS Powe
-Q. Would it be? Ree
A. T couldn’t say if it was eight or nine badd have
the exact specification of them at one time, a _ wget |
been quite a while ago. . ew :
'Q. Is that about right? = La
A. I would imagine that is a little bit sides it. ange
thing. It may have been a nine inch bore, if weiwere just
guessing’ at it. ae de
Q. How about eleven . inch ‘stroke? te hat about
right? -
A. Yes it could have been a twelve inch stroke: it is
“quite a throw.
_Q Would you say that they weighed about! 10 600
pounds ‘apiece? dT” 4)
A. I wouldn't A I have got no way to estimate the
_ _/ weight. ;
: Q. ‘You are not familiar enough with such engines to”
im | approximate, their we’ ight?
- 2964 *
‘ Well I don’t sl that I am not familiar - enough,
but I wouldn't make’ a guess at the weight of those en-
- gines, not. knowing ‘the weight of them.
Q. Do you want to say whether 10,000 pounds was ap-
proximately right, or do you know?
> Mr. Botts:
I. object - to satin he has. answered the question
once. :
' The Court:
Well he is on cross examination; he is testing his
knowledge. I will overrule the ee
‘A. Weil that would be about five ton of engine, ten
tons complete: Why if ‘we want to get at the weight, why.
- we are guessing pretty close. That is all I could\say.
Q. Were they good engines? —.
A. .For their time of beingSuilt. 7
_Q. Was there any better engine at that time?
‘A. ‘I don't believe there «was. "
.Q. Now in ordinary operation in Florida waters, while
you were on the Seminole, did you observe any movement
‘of the cabins on deck when she was going up and down?
A. Ordinary operation?
Q. Going up and down. the Miami River?
A. Oh no, ni:
Q. Up and down Biscayne’ Bay?
A. No.
. Q Going down to the Keys, fishing?
A. No, sir. :
Q. That was something that happened under whet kind |
of circumstances?
A. In a seaway.
Q. Now you spoke about this after. cabin being in-
stalled; do you think that. was in the summer of what :
year? ° i :
2965
A. I think, -as you ask, it was. in the summer of. 26"
It‘seems to me that: it was .put on before we made the -
trip to Andros Island, whieh was made in July of ‘26.
. Q.° Where was that doffe? °
A. Merrill-Stevens, as I remember ‘it. ~-
‘Q. What else’ was done there at that time?
_ A. Sometime during that change-over; without having _
_ the exact dates, the cabin space below was.all rearranged. ©
Q. Anything else that you remember?. .
‘A. In the-line of work at any time, you ‘mean?
Q. No; _anything else that you remember was done
= * about the time this after cabin on deck was installed? ©
_A. Well it seenis that it was along.about that. time,
' which may not be’ the exact—the same job, the forward
deck house was changed a little bit; it seems .it was
_ lengthened, forward, mat I don’t. remember the exact date
on that.
Q. Idon’t quite IRM tes what it was that was leng-
thened Mr. Brown.
A! The forward ‘deck ‘house. /
- Q> Any other work done at that time, thet: you recall?
_ A. The only big job that I recall. Theéte. was a boat
_ deck put on there in the plage of the old canvas awning, —
- Sometime .about the time that work was done; whether
_ that was done at Merrill-Stevens or Palm Beach, I can't .
recall. ,
Q: What was the shape of ‘the water tanks? ° ‘
A. There was three water tanks, rated at 500 gallons --
each, that were*approximately three feet high, an:? what-
ever size it will take to make about 500 gallons; which was
seven or eight feet one: way and: three of them me in the
'. forward bilges.
Q. They were. “flat bottoms na flat tops?
Re: Flat bottoms and tops and sides..
Q. Rectangular tanks?
i _. we | Xs:
¢
gee 2966 5
@. “Were there. ariy cylindrical water tanks?
A. NO af
Q. Do you know of what the deck | over the tank ‘com-
partment is| made? . ;
_ A. No;-:the floor of the Captain’s room was wood, “which
was over it; ‘and the deck on either. side was woe; canvas
covered. ¢
* Q. Do you’ know whether that was set on * steel, or
— not? :
A. Not can't. Say.
Q. What was the. Seminole’s crew. doing at Merrill-
Stevens when ‘she was there the summer of 1927—and,
fall?
‘Chipping rust; cleaning up in n general. ’
- Quite’sure about that? st
Yes. If I hadn't been I wouldn't have said so.
Well do you remember ‘what .you testified about
_- when you first came on the stand last March, about the
- time you left the Seminole? _
ALT eame back the next day and corrected that, if I
~ remember, sir,
Q. I didn’t ask you that.
<A. Well: Tam answering you that way. I said I left.
her ‘in °27, dnd I Sogo yemigs —_ I got home . and
chécked up and’ found it was ’28; and I came back the —
‘next day on the stand, after that, and said it ‘was ’28 in-.
stead of '27. Now’ that was‘not done to cover\up any-
thing. ; e
bd .
A.
_Q. Whatelse besides chipping rust and cleaning?
"A. . Painting inside, as the job got. farther ae
Q. What else?
A. Well I don’t know of een else they could do.
Q. Were youon her? _ . ee
‘| A. Yes, sir. eae
Q. The whole time?
A. Yes; sir.
Q.
A.
-Q.
* 2967
Q. Why. a you say that?
A. Because you led me on to it, the way you-asked the
question, I didn’t understand it.
Q. I led you on to what?
A. Do I remember what I said?
Q. What did I lead you on to?
-A. You make out like I left her ir the summer of °27.
_ the way I understand it.
Q. Well did you?s .
A. I did not. You will find that: on .the record, that
'. I.¢ame back ‘and corrected it. 29
Q. But you first testified you left her’ in ‘27, in the -
Spring. ‘did ‘you not? -
A. You have got that record; NI don’t know: what: I
said, now. . ,
Q. Do you semeusbet? Do you remember?
A. De I remember. what, sir?”
but Will you read the —— is
a Preceding question | ‘was read:. “But you first’ testi-
‘fied you. left her in 24, in soe spring, did you not?” )//
os I don’t vanenihgs whether I said, spring or sum-
‘mer, but I ‘said I left her in '27. se
Q. And. you came back the next day and said 287
A. I did re ee ee : :
Q. The first’ time. you were wrong by a year?
A. Which is a very easy ‘mistake to make. _
Im Couldn't be mistaken about the removal of ‘these
+ gasolin inetanks, though?
a,
A. No, sir.
Q. Couldn’t be mistaken: about ‘that?
A. No, sir. *
_Q. You were there all the time? —___ :
A. I was there all the time that job was under. way.
Q.. When did job begin?
~. A. I couldn’t e “vou the date exactly.
<
-- find out ‘why T had been fired, and they says “Why some- ©
2968
Well, about. ~ sas
It was during the summer, some time.
And when did it end? . ae .
Late in the fall, sme time. . se
Were you still‘on her when the job finished?
Yes, sir.
Where did she go from Merrill- Stevens?
Darned if-I know. We wént down the river and we
laid off of Sey bold!s place for awhile; and we made cruises,
and we came back to Seybold’s; and I cont know ‘where
Wwe did go. . a
Q. Where was a when you left her? See
of ae Seybeold’s.
Q. What was the occasion of your leaving?
' A. That might bring on talk, but I don’t mind talking. - |
The Captain fired me, and I went down to the office to
PO rPOPrPOLS&
body must be crazy; you ‘are not the one that is fired, it
“is him that we are after”. I says “Well I am fired, any-
way’. And they told me to go back home and sit easy
and not pay any attention tc it.
= Who told .vou that? oie pores :
Mr. Siminon and Mr. Scott. : So I, went back’ home, — @
ie they notified me in a day or ‘two to meet Captain Wil- |
lie Baker down there at a certain time during the day .
about lunch time ‘and Captain Nelson would ‘be gone.
Several days after this—after I was fired. -I went back
and met Willie Baker, and Mr. Simmon was there, and put
Captain Nelson ashore with his bag and baggage. Without
"any warning he turned to me and told me “Now you and |
Captain Baker are in charge of the boat”; so I went back.
aboard, and with the understanding that I had a job from
then on. Nothing against. m> whatever, and they had _.
‘ everything cleared up. And in a week or so after that, --
Willie Baker and his boy.and my boy, several of Willie
Baker's friends—I don’t know how many, and myself,
took the boat to Lauderdale, tied het up at Pilkington’s.
grorereres
2969
We got up there and left. her there, and we all came
back, And I went back the next day; I think Captain
Baker went back with me; we went up there and started
laying@her - ‘up. ;
Q. That was in 1928? .
A.° '28. We started laying the boat up.in Pilkington’s
shed. We took down one of the masts, or, maybe—yes;
and: backed her into the shed.—-No, we headed her ‘in the —
‘shed that time; and I stayed on her for about a week, lay-
~ ing up, with the understanding I was to be with her. And
Willie Baker and Mr. Sigmon came up there I think it
was a Saturday, told me to pack up and get ready to go
‘to town with them. So we went. right on to town. and
they paid me off. So I didn’t know what it was all about,
I couldn't find out. what it ‘was all about, and I requested
an audience with Mr. Scott; and they would not tell me_
anything, and wouldn't. even let me see Mr. Scott.
Did you ask Mr. Simmon what it was about?
‘Yes,- sir; he didn’t know..
What did he say?
He didn’t know. |
Did he say he didn’t know?
He ‘said he didn’t know.
‘You tried. to get to see Mr. Scott?
I tried to get to see Mr. .Scott, and Mr. Scott. was
always too busy to see me.
Q. You never did see. Mr. Scott? |
A. ‘Not. after-I was let out.. .
Q. Well this work at Merrill-Stevens in 1927 as you
remember it, began in the summer and was —— in
the fall, is that right?
A. Late in the fall, I would say; I don’t remember just
what month.
Q. I don't want to get into a quarrel with you about -
when fall ends and winter begins; but, about when? |
‘A. It seems to me we were off by Christmas, but I am
not sure.
2970
Q. Do you: remember whether you were still. there ‘at
_ Christmas? i
A. No I couldn't say.
' Mr. Bibowest:
‘That is: all.
Mr. Matteson: oe
That is all’
(Witness excused.)
4049. Thereupon: GEORGE. F. KLEIN as a witnes:
_on behalf of Libelants, in rebuttal, was sworr. and’
testified as follows:
Direct. Examination.- ,
By Mr. Matteson:
What is your(full nar .¢
George F. Klein. | Feet
What is your occupation? we
Iron. worker. : _°
“And how long have 3 you been engaged in that oc-
. cupat tion? :
A. About fifteen years.
Q.. “And who do you work for now?
‘-A. A. L. Hardie, Hardie’s ‘Tron Works.
QQ. What other concerns have you" worked for? ~
A. -G. M. Dykes; Coral Way Tron Works; Hull- Molton;
Arrigoni..
Q. When you say, iron work, what: ies that include? _
A. Well’ general blacksmithing; general . repairs © “on:
everything; welding, acetylene, electric.
Q. Soldering? .
A. Soldering.
go>rore®
2971
Do you operate—do you do punching of eet 3
Yes, sir.
Drilling?
Drilling.
All kinds of iron woikt
That is right. ~ |
Do you work in copper and bronze, too?
That’s _ right.
Are you familiar with tank work, too?
Do a little of it yes, sir.’ Ls
; Did you accompany us with the Court when we
wesit out to cae Seminole in October of this year? eis
- A. I did.
Q:. And did you observe the tank that had been re- .
moved, in place, and laid on its al at the forward part
“of the Seminole?
A. Yes: oe
Q. What did -y2u observe with respect to that ini:
with respect to solder?
A. Well I noticed it had been soldered up maybe about
_ eighteen inches on the side there; and penaer in places
- on the bottom | os
- Q. Well now was there any “evidence of solder above
the eighteen inch place that you speak of, on the side of
the tank?
A. Nol couldn't say ‘that there was. 3
Q. It has been suggested here that there may have |
been solder on the side of the tank above that place, on .
the side, and- that it was caused to run off by the heat.
of a fire through which this tank went. Will you tell-us -
what you know, about the effect of heat in bce, sold-
er from a soldered surface?
A. -If they had been soldered -all the way up, it would
have shown signs of solder on it yet.
- Q. Why was that? ~ 4
A. Because in my cases where I remove solder, you
; have to use a steel brush, with heat, to remove - the
solder. y
LPOPOPOPoOre
asia
Q.. What.-do you mean oe heat?
-A. With a torch: —
Q. You mean that’ you stiiaigs to remove ‘it with a
blow torch?
. A. That is right.
- Q. You have to use—
Ao steel brush in order to knock it off, ‘when it is. i
hot.
Q. In other words, it does ‘not run off readily?
A. . No.
Q-:
By that, do you mean that none of it comes off, or .
that you can’t get it all off? os
"A. ,Well yes some of: it will come off, but you still have
. your tinning on there; you have to tin: it first in order to
_ s6lder it..
Q.* And is that what you have to remove with a: wire
brush? . \
A. Well a certain percentage of that yes, sir.
Q. You spoke of soldering, that you observed in the
bottom seam of the nk Tell us just what you observed
there. ;
‘A. It was saldeced in. places; it wasn’t soldered com-
x pletely. around. :
Q. You mean the. solder wasn't there when | you ob-
served it?’
A..-That'is right. :
Q. ‘How extensive were the places where solder won't
there?
A. What is that? © ; :
Q. How extensive were the places where. solder wasn't i:
there? : Na A
A. Well there was clases that would average two and
three inches there, that wasn’t soldered.
. Q. Did you fotice the rivets around the bottom seam
of the tank, as to whether they had been soldered or not?
oy No I don’t think they were. .
.
‘
<
“
2973 ae:
Q.. Did you measure the tank compartment space there,
~the-width of it from one_end of the ship to the other? —
A. Yee * :
Q. To see the clearance of the tanks in that space?
A. About a half inch. . Seles
Q. On each side? -. - an:
A. Yes, sir, at-most a half ‘inch. ,
Q. -What is that?.
A. I say, at. the most, about a half: inch.
. Now will you tell us ‘whether there is any difference
in appearance between welding and waste I am
p>
~ talking about fresh work, now. .
A. Soldering would have ‘a bright salir to it; where’
your -welding, if you are welding two pieces of -iron to- —
?
gether, you have. the same color as. iron.
Q: Is there any. other aifterence in appearance’ between |
solder and welding? : :
A. You would have a bright color and a dark color.
Q. Any difference in the surface that is produced, —the
. kind of a surface that you get? ae
A. Why you would‘have a rolled one if you weid. it.
‘Q. ‘What do. you mean by a rolled edge? °
A. What we call a bead; you would have a bead’ on.
there,—a rough bead on there. fe is
A rough bead? te gt
Yes, sir.
It wouldn't be smooth?
. No. * :
And solder— .
Soldering ‘would be smooth.
preororel
A. No, sir, anybody can tell the difference.
Mr. Underwood: ;
I move‘to strike that out, what anybody could tell. I
don't think I could.
. -Is there any difficulty in telling the difference be-.
a “tween soldering and welding? -
\ : wes - —
.
LaF a
Mr. Matteson:; |
That: is a kind of an expression, if your Honor please, —
that expresses the witness’ view on that subject. «-
The Court: 7 |
It is clear enough ‘ the Court, but it may be subject
toa technical i strike it. — m
' Q.. Was there any welding on the tank, that you ob-
served? ,
— A. No.
Q. Had the tank een coulked, could you tell?
A. No it heotanade been caulked.
The Court:
-You mean this difference is sess visible?
Lan Beg pardon?
The Gourt: Je
_ The difference between soldering and welding is’ plain
to see; is that | what you mean?. —
- A. Well it is plain to see. Soldering, why it shows’
up more or less like nickel plating; and welding, you have
the same appearance you have in your tank.. You can
take a pocket knife and cut soldering -off; where you
cvuldn’t if it was welded. Take a scat of glass ‘and
scrape it off, for that matter. =
(By Mr. Matteson): one ;
‘Have ygu ever done soldering on a “steel tank?
- No, sir..
Of this size? ar he
No, sir. ;
What is that?
No, . ‘sir.
In your opinion, would soldering be practical on a
steel tank as large as that? : me
Lororere
WR a reeks
I would say no; not on a tank.
A.
Q.- On a steel. tank?
A. No.
°Q. Why: do you say that? a
__ A. Well-it is never recommended. If it was on brass .
or copper it would be different. 7
Mr. Matteson: 3 tetas Se
That is all. ;
Cross Examination.
By Mr. edened:
Q. You say you are employed by Hardie’ s?
A. Yes, sir. ;
. Q. . What is your job there?
A. Well I am more or less looking after all the work
that comes. in ‘there.
~@ a an sorry, I am having difficulty in understanding
you:
A._ Llook.after more or less all work in the ities
mo 4
-Q. You mean by: oan, that you do it younnent?
A... ¥es, sir
* Q. You handle the tools yourself? —
A. That’s right. . Noa fea
Q.. And you work for him at a _weekly wage?
A. Yes, sir. —
Q. Does he have a foreman in the shop?
A. Well no; that is what I say, I more or less take.
are of that end of it. I am not considered foreman, but
look after his business. ‘He is in. and out,
Q. Hardie himself is the boss?
A. That’s right.
Q. . Any other people that work in that ‘shop?
A. Yes, ‘sir. © :
iow. many? |
2976
A. Well Sometimes we have four, and sometimes . as
- high as fourteen or eighteen.
You work with those fellows? .
- What is that?-
You do the work with those other _—
Yes.
In other words you are a workman me not a fore-
, is that right?
Yes.
Did. you ever make a galvanized iron tank?
No, sir.
Did you ever test one?
Test water. tanks? no gas tanks.
Never tested a gasoline = :
‘No, si 7
Ever test a ‘miiesiteat iron were out of a boat?
No, I wouldn’ t say out. of a boat; no.
Have you had any ——— —s on 2 boats? St a
No, sir. }
-You: haven’t done any work on galvanized iron
line tanks?
No, sir. ° ;
When you ‘apply solder, what. tools do you use?
‘Use a soldering iron.
That is thé only tool? ©
The only tool, yes. =) .
What else do you use?
Use acid. Water reat S
And what else? > | ae kes
. You clean it off with acid, ‘first?
Clean with acid first,: ~— si
‘Then’ you put the solder and the soldering iron ‘to |
outline on the spot? :
' A. That is right.. - mt
~Q. What. kind of soldering iron do you use, now?
A, —
ga
peer er eeeee phen)’ er error ere.
- / out with an acetylene torch? —
> 9977
‘Where does it get its heat? vee
Heat it-with a fire; have a blow torch.
You heat it with a blow torch? t
That is right. :
And then you use it for. enidin' until it cools off?
That is right. °
You have seen these. electric soldering irons haven't
“<
-—
gor hererere
‘2
Yes, sir.
You can plug them in in me 110 volt. circuit; is that.
right?
A. That is ‘right. “NX
Q. It does not take a ons deal of heat to melt the
stuff, does it? -
AD No, sir. eee
Q. Did you -ever calculate how
A. No I wouldn't say. - I crcsaahae about 459 de-
mated it with a thermometer or any devite? |
Q. “Seed eee? eke i en or have a approxi- /
A. No I haven't; only a guess.
Q. Now have you tried to take solder off < blow
torch?
_A. Yes, sir. :
'Q. And how big a flame aie the blow torch ch shat?
A. Not a blow torch; ‘acetylene tore —
Q. Have you ever punched a rivet out, ‘burned a ri et
A. Yes, sir: ot
Q. . How big a flame does that torch make? aN
A. According to the size rivets you are cutting out. - \
Q. What is the biggest flame you have ever seen,—- ‘\
normally I. mean, from an acetylene torch? .
A. That long. (Indicating.)
Q. How big around? As. big arcund as -my pencil?
_ Mr. Matteson: —
About thre inches.
2978 ARs
Mr. Underwood: . .
Three o or four inches. . 1 was thinking n more of diameter.
A. - You are talking about—weiding and cutting is two
different things. When you weld,—when you are cutting’ |
‘you only have a flame about like that. -
Q. What I am thinking about: is the flame ene may
have to use in melting solder. |
A.- Oh, in melting solder you use a bow torch, not a
. cutting torchr
' Q. How big a flame do you get from the welding torch?
A. Well you can’ use any ‘kind of a type you want to, on
that. Use a flame say a half-inch long; because it does
not require an awful lot of heat.
Q. What: is the biggest you have ever used?
A. Oh I would say around ‘whree-querters to maybe fan
inch. whe
Q And how big around. is that flame?
A. Well that would run from a quarter of an inch on
_ down to a’ point. It tapers out as you come up.
.Q. You mean the biggest diameter. of that flame wtuld
“be a quarter of an inch?
A. . Yes.
Q. That does not heat much of the inated sistinaiins
- the point where-the flame is put, does it?
_ A. Beg pardon?
Q That doesn’t heat iath of the metal around the
place where the flame is dizected, does’ it?
A. Well I should say. it would heat up.to two and a half.
inches, if you want to get it heated; because you have to -
- work the torch back and forth.
_ Q. The reason you say solder does not run oft except
with a wire brush, is because it runs away from the place
where you have your flame aud gets cool and solidifies
* again out on the margin; is that right?
A. No I wouldn't say that.
Q. Isn't that what it does?
e
- 2979
A No ‘it will drop tight off.
Q: When it runs down the Side of the tank—assuming vi
- you are burning—
A. No it won't run deen: the side of the tone because
there te de ploce Ser ito 2 Si EO
Q. You think not? .; | tree : a
— ‘Q. What is it of the solder; that ie on the tank, that
you have to brush off with the wire brush?
, A-—When you aré doing any kind of soldering, you have |
got to do what you call tinning your iron first. In other
words, you have got to put a light coat on the surface.
.Q. Light-coat ‘of what?
A. Solder, on ‘yodr surface. ‘When you get your
metal good and clean, you have got to put a light coat on
there first before you can get the rest of it to stick.
First you put a light:coat of solder?
That is right.
Then you put some more soldet is.,that correct?
That is right.
rgprerey
4 Q. The first ‘one will ‘Stay on there, even against the
. flame, will it?
A. Yes, GAs. 3
‘ Q: That is pretty tight stuff then ‘isn't _ eae
A. Oh ygs. =~
Q| Stand a lot of pressure? ola?
A. Well-I wouldn't say it would stoma a lot of pres- *
sure, no. I haven't really checked it. , ‘¢
Have you ever soldered a ee tank?
A ‘which?
A -cylindrical tank,
No. .. 3
Ever burned the solder off ‘of a cylindrical tank?
No, sir. .
>» © Pere:
a
When you put your flame on there, what is it that
A. “The tinning will stay on there.” 2 3 >
‘
Qr You. were on the Seminple last mohth, and you saw
this tank when the rest of us were out there, and you
looked atthe bottom? —— or ‘natalie g
A. ‘That i: is right. my oii 3
“Q. Met, more: or less? . Pe 5B
fhe Wes i 6 Tata ae ee
cn Q. Did you observe that ted did not one come down ?
“ as far as the other?
A.. Yes.: Cs
* le ee: - obéerved ‘there was a little pore Between #
them? - ie
of, On you could put your fingernail in there some
: places.
‘Q. Now: is it your recollection that there were some
places. in that angle that — no solder at all? -
A Yes, sir. pnt eae ees
Q. “Are you quite clear ‘about’ that? 2 ah aN 2
A: -¥es, sir.. “
Q. “Absolutely ho solder at all? ‘
’ A. No solder. — J
Q. You don't mean that there were no plates—that
=e. _were merely some places: that had more solder ‘than RS
/- ‘others; or: less than others? [ 0. a
- -A:, 1 would, say there was some. places where there
ie, had been no solder. see a ‘ mee:
-Q. Where did-you take any Measurements of the-tank.: <<
| _ £empartment?. | Ns
2 &.” On the west side of it. Ais ie
Q.. Which side would that ber 5 a
-- A: -On the opposite side to where we got. rere boat ‘
.Q. And from what point did you measure? J
“y A.\ Right down ‘at the bottom; where the boat Mopars
off. rather. ae ‘
4 -\ OS
a Se we 4 . 4 72: gee Fae \ . . ° ei ira
. ’ on ss \ i ; ee
4 ‘ »° ! , Ag ee eX e ’
-* ‘ j \ . .
7 , 4 ; ‘
29381
Q. Well titan what pois dia you measure? ;
_. A, Measured the inside of her.
Q. -Where did you have to get to, to make. that measure-
ment? ' miu Ey -
Down: inside. | : Ls
* What did you use to_ measure it with?
A rule. ;
’ What:kind of a rule? *
_ A six-foot rule. +
What type of six-foot’ rule was. it?
' It was a steel rule.
A steel rule? ee .
Deca combination steel and aluminum, I ‘think :
POO Joe Pees
o
4
*,al ee
Tt wasn’t one of these wooden folding rules?
. No, ‘sir. *
Did. you’ measure / the distance hetiiehn ‘the ta
and the bulkhead itself?
A:' No; that. was a hard: proposition to do, because the ..
tanks looked like they had been moved.
Q. ‘I show you. a, photog: md Exhibit 5-J; is that the :
space you were in?
A. Here is the — I was in, right along here.
ere
Mr. Underwood: , athe
' The witness indicates on the Yiueprint Exhibit A, the oo”
same space. shown in ‘Exhibit 5-J: : .
9, Is that right? ;
A. Down inside, right heré..
Mr. Matteson:: |
' He ‘indicates: the. space batwaiai = ‘ats danke and ‘the
port side ‘of the ship. I don’t. know whether he ‘is satis- |
_ ‘fied yet that this is ‘the same, or not; but I will agree
et Rie:
A. Right down at this point here.
%
"2982
Q. That is all right. ‘Well now thé testimony in this -
case is, and I will ask you to assume that this photograph, :
Exhibit 5-J, is a photograph of that space which you have
just pointed out on the blueprint:
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Can you show me on that photograph the points ad
tween which you measured?
A. No, I don't see tfem.: ~ s
Mr. Matteson, : | -
Does the witness ender vteiul this is looking down?
Mr. Uaderwodd:
* . J was — to tell him that..
Q. ' This. is a photograph, Mr. Witness, taken looking
down. This white object at the bottom is Number One
tank; it is the side of the tank, which I now show you on.
the ‘blueprint Exhibit A.
A. There.is two angle uprights right in this: corner
here where your plates, bolt or rivet to; I didn’t notice
what they did. I took the distance from where the two
angles was fastened on to the plates, right across at this
point. I can't see the angles there at all.
Q. I call your. attention to the corner on this photo-. .
graph. ce i
_A. I see it now. I. didn't see ‘the way it was:
Q.: Here is another angle right here. ;
A. I measured right against the side of this ship, across
these two angles. here, from the plate. = -
'. Q. From the plate to where? | aa
- A. - Over there. From the plate, not from the angle;
‘from plate to plate.
Q. Now do you orient yourself? Do.’ you recognize this
picture here as, the place where you were?
See see now; but I don’t see the other angle over here. °
Q. Indicating the forward part? /
A
2983
‘A. That is right.
Q.. You say you measured from the plate. at the left-
-hand side of the picture, adjacent to the angle?
A. That is right.
Q. Over to a similar point on the ‘other side?
A. To a piate over there. +
.Q. What measurement did you get?
A:> I am pretty sure it was forty-two and a quarter
inches; I wouldn’t be positive.
Q. Well what is your recollection about that?
A. I will say forty-two and a quarter inches.
Q. Well your testimony. and answer to Mr. Matteson’s
‘question didn’t give us that “measurement; jit gave us a
‘clearance. You didn’t measure the clearance direct, did
you? » Pay es .
A. That is what I say, you couldn't measure. the clear
ance direct, “because that: was buckled up there.
Q . Whether you could or not, you didn’t?
A. That is the only point in the-ship where you could
really measure the inside of that space there.
Q. ,Whether you could or not, you didn’t measuye th a
actual clearance itself did you?:
A. No, sir, because that was buckled up; you couldn't. t
Q. Did you measure the diameter of the. tank?
A. I meastired it but I couldn't say what it was, now.
Mr. Uiilieiend:
‘ That is all.
. - Re-Direct- Examination.
By Mr. Matteson:
Q. Let me get this home: You said that you measured
_ and reached a result, and the clearance was half an inch
on each side?
sf ee Sa
2984
Q. How did you i get at that? Just what was ‘your
process?
_ A. .Well I measured the aa, but I ‘can't recall just
exactly what the tank was. ei
QQ. And then you measured the —. 7 eo
A. Yes.
Q. And how much difterence was there between them?
A.. Well I figured it out where you would have a good
half inch: ‘about a‘ half inch clearance. ,
Q. Well you, mean there was twice that difference: be-
tween: the diameter of’ the tank and the width of the com-
partment?
A. Why you wouldn't have—there wasn't an inch dif-
ference between the tank and the space, is what I am. get-.
ting at. I- don’t recall exactly. what the tank measured,
but I*khow there wasn’t an inch difference between the
tank and the space.
Q. Did vou notice the size of the rivets in the tank?
ss -Three- eighths.
Mr. Underwood: }
I object to that; not ‘proper re-direct..
ihe Court: Cen, ae cae
‘Well I will overrule. that. f | arn fe ea
oe Was. ion any difference in‘ the -size of the rivets
"on the side and the bottom of‘ the tank?
A, I will say there was. ica seemed to vary. It is
hard to say.
Q. | mean, the size of the rivets.
A. Oh no, the rivets were the same. }
Q. Three-eighths? . es
A.. Yes, sir., Wis j =a
_ Mr. Matteson: Ee
That is all. *. \
' | side.
2985
“ Re-Cross Examination.
By Mr. Setewaieelh:
Q. You say you measured. the tank?
A.- I measured the tank but I can’t recall exactly what
the measurement was, now. ~- r
* Q. Which tank? ae Set
A. I measured the tank that was laying down ¢ on the
Q. Where did you measure it?
A. At the bottom. .
Q: You. don't remember the measurement?
A. Nol wouldn't say the exact. measurement; I can’t
‘Tecall.
_ Q. Did the i of the rivets measure "three-eighths ,
inches .across? wees es Yreka tn
A. Oh, no. es
Q. What measurements did you get on the iat
>» A. Well they vary, because they were hot —put ‘in
- there hot.
Q. It is your opinion that = were three-cighths?
me That is right.
Mr. Underwood:
That is all. ion
( Witness excused. )
. Mr. Matteson:
If your Honor please,-I have come to a point where I
~ have got to ask the privilege that has been asked before,
on other points in.this case. I have a small point that I
want to establish in the record, but the only two witnesses
who can establish it are Mr. Dyer and myself. We hate,
either of: us, to be obliged to retire- as counsel in the’ case;
but. I would like to call Mr. Dyer to testify on this point
.
2986
%.
at this time; if there is no ‘point to be made on the ground
that counsel are involved.
Mr. Underwood: 7
Certainly not: oe: px . /
4068 : Ginee DAVID W. DYER as a witness on:
; behalf of Libelants’, in rebuttal, was sworn and
testified as follows: sh
_ Direct Examination.
By Mr..Matteson:
Q. Mr. Dver . what is your profession?
A. Lawyer.
© Qs. Are you a member of the Bar of the Sstate of Flor-
A. I am. . | he rate
Q. Anda member of the firm of Batchelor & Dyer, of
counsel in this case?
: A. Tam...
Q. I show you yo Exhibit 78 for idefttification,
also known as Phipps’ Exhibit Z, which was.offered in
evidence in connection with the testimony of Mr. ‘Hawkins
on May 9.1939; and ask you if you saw it on that date?
A. I did.
Q. This exhibit. was also referred to in the testimony: |
of Anderson on “May 12.. Will you tell me what observa- |
tions .you made in “respect to this, exhibit, between those
dates?
. A. IT made an shasbeiitais that one night between those.
two days, you had taken this particular exhibit to your
hotel room, .and during the. evéning both yourself and
myself went through the exhibit in detail, and at that
Ms particular dime the first two' sheets of the exhibit did not
contain any initial over the line, Entered, either on the
—
SP ess ne
ee
first: page or on the second page; and the two sheets fur-
ther. down, dated I believe June .22nd, 1935, did not have -
any” ‘initials above that line. |
Q. _Did you again observe’ this ‘exhibit on “May 12, at
the time Mr. Anderson was examhined with respect to it?
A. I did. ee
Q. And ‘what did yes joo in respect to it at that.
- time? . ie 3 }
.A. I observed that:on ithe tirsé and second pages, above —
the line marked Entered, ‘the. initials E. J. A., or whatever
they purport to be, were thére,—were on it at that time. ~~.
Q. On both the first and second pages, vouchers 103
and a? s: ee
A. Correct. © -—
Q. Was any record made, that you know of, with re-
spect - to the signatures appearing on the various: sheets’
of that exhibit?:
_A. There was. | ;
_Q.. Will you tell. us what that was?
A. -Before weysent that exhibit over to Mr. Underwood's s_
room, on the evening that we were looking it over, you
“made a record of the individual sheets, and specified —
on that record where they were signed, where they were
not signed, where they. were entered, made,. approved,
and so forth.
Q. I-show you this documet: | Libelants’ Exhibit 109 for ©
_ identification, taken out of this envelope; ask —_ whether
vou can tell me what that is?
_ A. That_is the schedule that was made up by you at —
that time, that night, in which it was signified what were |
on these individual sheets of this exhibit.
Mr. Matteson:
That is alk—
: ao
Mr. Underwood: ios
Mr. Botts? eps We ate | ?
a
Mr: Botts:
No questions.
etes ig eu Examination.
By Mr. Underwood: 3
- Q. Did you check Exhibit 109 for-identification. ——-
the vouchers themselves, Mr. Dyer?
, * You mean, did I check this against this?.
That is right. iS
I did not, that night”
Did you make any personal memorandum of your
eraererer,
ERE
wn
et
I did not. :
Q. What you say is, as I undérstand it, that the i initials
E. J.-A. opposite the word, Entered, on voucher 103,.were
_not't “thexe when you first saw it? =
A. That is correct.
Q. You say the same thing about emis saliteed vouch-
er 102, voucher 101, and the first page of en 100; is.
that right? .
-A. No. fk Z ° > | 7 .
-Q. You tell me what is right. : f
A. I say .the initials did not appear on. .- voucher 103,
' which is the top: voucher; nor on 102, which is the next
‘voucher; nor ‘on two others farther down, under the date
- think of June 22, 1935; this voucher, and this voucher.
te last two that you refer to on which no initials
, are the two —_ constituting voucher *, is
Q, 97, 967."
A. That is ii:
Q. Now of course on voucher 96 there .aren’t any
initials today, are there?
2989 |
A. No, sir.
Q. Then the only dian that % you say : 20: observed
in- these vouchers are on 103 and 102?
: A. That is correct.
re. . Q. Could you be mistaken about. any part of that?
3 A. I don’ t believe Ree : -
Mr. Cndacweatl: a
I just wish I could tet the tone of aed voice in the re-
cord.—That is all. ,
“(Witness excused.) | oA Se |
Mr. Matteson:
If your Honor please, if I may re va stand and let .
Mr. sx geod examine me.
Mr. ‘Underwood:
Why don’t you just state it on the seneed: would your
testimony. be substantially the same as his? - :
Mr. Matteson: .
: er the: a ;
Mr. Underwood: : ;
I will stipulate on the record that Mr. Matteson’ s. testi-
‘mony would be substantially the . same as Mr. Dyers’ on
+, that point.
‘ Mr. Matteson:
‘There is just this much about ‘it; Mr. ‘Underwood seems
- to think there was: something inconclusive about Mr.
Dyer's last statement. -There is nothing I ever was more
sure of in my entire life than I am sure of this; and if
there is going to be any com:nent made on that point,
why I would want to have the privilege of testifying.
~ 2990
Mr. U nderwood:
-Place that on the record, if. you “like: I don’t mind. You
can be : sworn and testify if you wantnto.
The Court:
- Whatever you say.—
Mr. Underwood:
I am perfectly content to put your statement on the. re-
_cord, and say that: wouild be your testimony; where you
want to do.
~ aeee o. ; . : a eS
.Mr. Matteson: .
All right. Then if your Honor please, ‘I. would like to
add this much, if.it is agreeable to. Mr. Underwood: that
_ I did ‘actually make this memorandum and checked as I
“made it, and. made certain of its accuracy; and also that
the entries in the first column thereto related to initials .
or lack of initials opposite the word Entered. . Initials in
the second columm refer to the space immediately beneath,
headed, Detail Posting; in the third column, refer to what-
ever appeared opposite the legend, Made by; and the final
7
3 * column, whatever appeared opposite the words Approved
by; on the voucher. That dashed lines were used to in-
dicate blank spaces; and that with respect to the first two,
the stars indicated my emphasis at the moment, of the —
lack of any fe
sheets vouchers 102 end. 103.
4
/
‘Mr. ‘Underwood: : 7
Maybe’ we can shorten. that. a- tittle bit: those are. the
only two ‘discrepancies that you noted?.
os
>
Mr. ‘Seis eee Aaa et che #
Yes. | : ) >
atures at all appearing on the first two
2991
Mr. Underwood: ) ;
You will remember Mr. Anderson said that he initialed
: this one, the top one, as I recall am, ee 8 oe
= ne ; ee : Ai3
_ Mr. ‘Matteson: .. .
_ That is correct; he finally admitted . that he did that,
and denied positively that he did the second one on 102.”
} Mr. Underwood:
- That is correct. .
4074 - . Thereupon: - JOHN A. THOMPSON was) re-
3 | ‘called as 4 witness,on behalf of Libelants’, in re-
~ buttal, and further testified as § follows: |
Direct Scnenination.
By Mr. Matteson: .
Q. Mr. Thompson you have already’ testified , as to your
‘ qualifications and your experience; so I will just ask you
if, as part of your ‘experience, you have had occasion to
examine and analyze bills for | repairs on “work on vessels?
A. - I have sir. . i |
*e And: how much experience of that kind have’ you
had? |
A. ;Well it. has been more or sist continuous all:
‘through, even up to today.
Q. Have you-had a-great deal of that to do?
A. Qh yes, considerable.
Q. Have you examined repair bills relating to the work °
on the Seminole in-1927, which nas been marked as Ex-
hibit 4-L and 4-M? a;
A. I examined photostatic copies of them:
Q. You did your-work from photostatic copies?
,A. Yes, sir. .
Q. You have those copies, havé you?”
2992
\a. :No, I can have them here in the mor ing; -T left
them at the hotel
Q.\ Will you tell us Mr. Thompson, in ‘summary form
what You find as an analysis. of these bills, was the work
that was. done on the Seminole, as represented by: those
bills? 3 \
_- A. Well erp wien I didn't pay much attention
‘tothe prices.\ I separated the bills, went through them at
great lengths, and I found that there were 724 designated
* jtems totalling 14.646. hours. — Peta Sane
‘+ QQ. That refers to labor items? - ;
A. That is labor’\and material—no, that is Tabor items;
that: is right, labor items. I may say ‘that possibly it .
. would be—to be meticulously correct, 723; because there
was one item that I took the liberty of incorporating ‘in
‘there, because it seemed obvidus to me it was merely an
omission on ‘the part of the, stenographer, because there
were similar items before - similar items after; but
the actual items then would be. 723, if you wish. Of the
none-designated items I found six, totalling: 48 hours;
that is with the exception oe the — I have just men-
. tioned.
Q.- What are the items you just mentioned?
A: I haven't that note here;' I omer let. a that
in the morning, ‘with. the details.
Q. When you say, designated, what ds 3 you mean?
A. That is that the labor item has specified em | it
. the purpose for which the.labor was ysed.
a ae er
A. ‘The coniparison -of that is io. each hour. not desig-
nated, 304 ‘hours designated, or roughly about one-third of
one percent of the labor items were not designated. On
the whole I think that bill was particularly well itemized,
arid fairly clear for ay with reasonable. cyte aay ae
go through and check it.
' Q. Well now by going through and chedites up, can
you give us an.analysis of the ‘work regpenanted by those
bills as —_ stand? ‘
~ 2993
A. I haven't analyzed them as to prices, at all. What
- 7 q
I did, I checked to see if they had designated small items; _
for instance, there were 48 labor items less than two hours,
range; but there are three items with as low a charge as
each with-a designation; and I won't give you the whole .
half an hour, and-those are designated. The labor items |
were particularly well marked out as: to the job the
labor’ was spent -on.. And that covered these 48 labor
" ¢tems, each less then two hours, covering .ten separate
- trades. So I concluded that as it‘was not one particular’
’ charge, _it. was a good. many ,—I see :particularly the whole |
of the trades in it, it t the large items were -just
as carefully Ke tere were 716. items, labor or ~.
- . materials, each | than $1.00; and that seems a fairly.
good split-up as to the price. There are 60 items of labor
and materials each less than ten cents, the lowest being
an item for two cents, which is quite a cut of a bill” Ié_
seems on the whole the. bills were excellently designated
as to the work they cover,—the part of the work. I then
checked up the rivets; there ‘were 2261 pounds of rivets
charged, and no three-eighths rivets of any quantity were
supplied at ali.. All these fivets were. half-inch or five-
eighths. _..«.
Q. Could rivets of that size have been used on the
gasoline tanks of the Seminole?
A’ No, sir. - 5 ete:
Q. . Why not? :
A. They are too large for the _ of the tanks. I then
checked up the zinc plates referred to in evidence: I find
they were supplied and machined in two separate batches;
the first batch was charged. upon September the 2nd, in a’
quantity of 96 pounds, and the machining on that first .
batch was finished on September the 9th. The second
batch - was charged up on October 22nd, some six: weeks -
‘later, totalling in weight—amounted to 79 pounds; that —
» Was the material on the 22nd, and the labor on that item
>
a was” finished on, the. 25th, “That ives a total of zie |
.. plates of 175 _pounds..
i. *Q If the plates averaged. ‘tour. to five pounds apieve, re
_ ~ pow many plates would that make? Y
a Sf... Wel if they’: had an average of five, the. iicuoe figure .
_ | think, rhéntioned by Mr. Munroe, which I agree with as
-r being, a’ fair average of zinc plate for a boat of the size,
. that. would actually mean ,35 plates. T have analyzed the
" aecounts for the-account of welding rod used; there is a .
total weight, with the exception éf a small item I think :
in Noveinber, of I believe a pound and .a half, bronze
™~
™~\
me: ard.
»welding rods, —I call them brazing rods,—of ‘iron welding
_ rods;-a total, weight of nine pounds. .The. first was sup-
z plied: that is a charge, jt would be more correct to Say,
_-° beeauses J. only refér to>these bills it was charged'on _
We September .23rd, and that - “was of” ne pound, welding .
_ pods: Iiave the details:of thé rest. if you desive them. I. !
“‘chetked up*the sexy -acetylene gas that;was supplied; there
'; was_a total charge made of 3520 cubic feet of oxygen and
-. 1545. cubic feet of acetylene; the’ ‘proportion is a@pproxi-
mately 2,28 cubic feet of oxygen to one of acetylene. There
was.none supplied from October—that is oxy- orga
supplied ‘from wetober 26. ta November 9, when 220 t
‘the Seminole; I -found that they cornmenced to’ deliver
“those on’ October ' T0th, that.is just only four; the actual
. delivery of /any of’ them ‘in. quantity" commenced October ~ -
™ feet of. oxygen and 251 cubic feet of acetylene > ‘were.
pee: ‘charged. I checked ® up the patch bolts, which T noticed on.
23nd. .Total number used, 5313. The riveting was cém- — c
pleted on: the boat on October 25th, with the exception of
"four hours on november and and three hours on 1 Nov ember
oh
Mr Underweid:- ae See atte La
Sorry, Mr. ‘Thompson; ‘give me "that first date; riveting
finished when?
A. On October the 25.
i)
bers eee ae (2995 ‘
eas a ; . . Rend \
Be Mr. Underwood:
a 3. (TR wet?
§ ae Excepting four hours on November’ 2nd and three
. hours on November the. 3rd.
5 : Mr. Underwood:
Thank hope
‘
4
Ee r chi looked - into the. amount of electrical work \
' . .. | that was charged. I have. -elimjnated from the electrical
‘ _Wwork a certain item that appeared I think on the First or.
} ~ Second day; it appeared | obvious - to’ me’ was running |
wires for the purpose af carrying on. the repairs. . That
“was charged to the boat, but- obviously it was not part
' .. of the boat; it ‘was: wires run for purposes of carrying on
repairs: | J have not included that. work in these figures,
your Honor. Electrical work actually in connection with
‘ the’ boat. commenced: on Septerhber 27th;. two 40-watt -
_ bulb lanips supplied. On~December’ 2nd, 12° feet of fix-
‘ture wire. On January 4th, 8 feet: of high-tension wire.
The total cost of those three items amountéd to $2.12. T
. . find no trace in the bills, of any other electrical work.
' About the engines, the work on the éngines, a Maxim
. «Silencer, that is an item apparently I should think for one
br. those smaller engines, was supplied, on August 30th,
and labor .was charged on September, Ist. On Octobe:
‘ ‘Ist an exhaust fan was supplied,—I don’t know where for.
But" the only labor, engineer’s labor charged in this boat,
was charged up on October 26th and November the 18th.
/ Ort the first date, five hours
This text is long and has been trimmed here. Open the source document for the complete record.
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