Transcript of Record — Chicago v. Fieldcrest Dairies, Inc.

Supreme Court brief1942

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TRANSCRIPT OF RECORD

Supreme Court of the United States |

OCTOBER TERM, 1941

‘No. 7060

CITY OF CHICAGO, A MENICIPAL CORPORATION,

BOARD OF HEALTH OF THE CITY OF CHICAGO,

ET AL,. PETITIONERS,

Us.

FIELDCREST DAIRIES, INC.

ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE ‘UNITED STATES CIRCUIT COURT

OF APPEALS FOR THE SEVENTH CIRCUIT :

e ‘ .

PETITION FOR CERTIORARI FILED OCTOBER 20; 1941.

CERTIORARI GRANTED NOVEMBER 24, 1941.

powers Court of the United Satpe

_ Ootosun Tan, A; D. 1941.

ae -jaif . No.

CITY OF CHICAGO, (4 Muwtcreat Corporation), BOARD |

OF HEALTH OF THE CITY OF CHICAGO, DR.’:.

ROBERT A. BLACK, Heaurn Commissioner anp Act-

tna PresipENT oF Boarpd oF ‘Heats oF THE City oF

Cutcaco, ,

rb Ee anda Babe peltilenine:.

v8.

_ FIELDCREST DAIRIES, (Iwc.),

Pao _ Respondent.

‘ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED/ STATES CIRCUIT. COURT

OF APPEALS FOR THE SEVENTH CIRCUIT.

A :

<¥

_ INDEX. i

\_--

. Index to Printed Record of Proceedings in U. S.

pi Per re Ee PERT EP eT eT TTT Ee Pere E

Clerk’s Certificate to Volume 1 of Printed Record... . :608a

Clerk’s Certificate to Volume 2 of Printed Record....1224a.

Clerk’s Certificate to Volume 3 of Printed Record.....1779 .

Index’ to Proceedings in U. 8. Court of Appeals:

; icc ain ae car wak bce ce hed Oho Cb bane akan 1781

Opinion by Major, J., filed Aug. 4, eee 1782

‘Dissent by Lindley, D. J............. be tee caves 1795

Decree, entered Aug. 4, 1941................005. 1797

Order staying Mandate, entered Aug. 23, 1941... .1798

Designation of Record........ en gtscegubesoc +1799

—Clerk’s Certifilate ........... Sac bis aeaewaious 1801

Order allowing certiorari | nee ES ee ae

VOL. II pp. 609 to 1224.

TRANSCRIPT OF RECORD

IN THE.

Ui States Circuit Court of Aonrals

v7 _ ‘For the Sroeuth Circuit .

' No: 7502

— FIELDCREST DAIRIES, (Txc.),

*" s 6 : Plaintiff-App llee,

ae :

CITY OF: CITICAGO, 4 Mesterpars CorPORATION ),

BOARD OF HEALTH OF THE CITY OF CHICAGO,

DR. ROBERT A. BLACK, Heatran Commissioner ann

Actine Presipenr or Boarp or Wearru or tHe Crry or

CHICAG®E,

D, fe ndants-Appellauts.

\ppeal from the District Court’ of the United States for

the Northern District of Ilinois, Eastern Diviston.g

pH .

Th ANSC RIP T OF RE ( “ORD FILED JAN, 20, 1941.

ten Gem, Ae 2 Ghee Ge,

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IN THE

Dited States Circuit Court of SAnprals

| : Fer the Srbenth Circuit

7 1502

ES =>

_FIELDCREST DAIRIES, (Inc. es

= Plaintif'-Appellee,

v8. :

CITY OF CHICAGO, (a Muwtorpat - Corporation),

’ BOARD OF HEALTH OF THE CITY OF CHICAGO;

- DR. ROBERT A. BLACK, Heattn Commissioner anv .

Actine PRESIDENT or Boarp or Heattx or THE City oF

Cuicaco,

Defendants-Appellants.

Appeal from the District Court of the United States for

the Northern District of Dlinois, Eastern Division.

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' INDEX.

a RRA SRE pr ee Cy NN ETON aa |

Complaint filed February 2, SOE wank teusntan betes (8

' Answer filed February 27, 1939................005. 16

Exhibit A—Reprint of the Mayor Kelly Milk Ordi-

nance ase by _ Council J anmany 4, 1935,

NS 65a Choy cae eKAES TAS ae naa eases 23

Order referring cause to Master, entered May 12, 1939 123

- Notice as to stipulation, filed May 25, 1939.......... 124

_ Order approving stipulation, entered May 25, 1939... 125 —

: Stipulation as’ to experiments, etc. .............. . 125

'. Stipulation regarding:tests requested by City of Chi-

cago pursuant to.stipulation filed June 29, 1939.... 127

Order approving stipulation with respect to vente, en-

tered. June 29, 1939................ abhicwsedsee oes 131

} rmanscerT é OF TESTIMONY.

Statement by Mr. Schaefer........... ovutenbashas 132

Statement by Mr. Gariepy.........:,...0s.eee08- ins aoe

3 seanes 137, 155, 226, 373, 687, 849, 854, 880, 893, 1231, 1271

. Arnold, Lloyd ..°........ i shuckaae Me

Bergman, Prank Fi. 2.5.5.6 cc nccsvocsess eek ato 939

Bunta, Andrew :......... A Pe Redd Peas a4 el

Carpenter, A. E. (deposition of)...:.............2..1385

Davis, David J. ...... er aenk ok wa cuas ees Es 1243

Desa, -8.-E.-J3t si “, . .840, 888, 988, 960° -

Faust, E. R. ....... Fey Sweskden Pepe Mer pe yer 862

NN GA. Gc den cisdeetcnvcenty need fag wi 306, 534

r7ecl pages 1 to C08; Vol IT pages O08 to 1894; Vol. TIT pages 1888 to

Me, DING ooo casesecnsnsiiccsces Genes Be auton make 877

~~~ Johnston, Florence (deposition of)........ ivbinieowe us .1379

MR CN BR 5 ore ae es ve via s '. 360, 372

Keyser, Paul V, Jr. (deposition. of)......... ik puewe 1334

, King, Bruce ..........-..-.-0s.eee0e eee git'Sgvien 861,897

° Koller, Margaret M. .:.............. pi bsakeacwrasal .440

<P MONI We 5 Spas case sndanes busecsspanveat 1248

McNally, William D. ........ Rscrsthescysces sce

Orvis, Howard ...:..:....... Siieches EE LEE? eS” 567 ..

Packer, Herbert M. (deposition of)... wees mereye a cacen 1355.

Peterson, Howard R. ....... eye Te

_- Pracha, Martin John ......... PEE re weed +624, 700

Gham Ses: 144

ott, George D.-....... Cech shee bier ks wate asvveeers 612

3 RG RUNS ass Sees es cadyacsaseeces eh pa 364 .

Taylor, Clinton L. ....... SR Teas « Abauah ewe Sans 55

I pbk huh os iiwondvesathacis rere ~.. 898

ee ENG oi vic bbb. 56A5 44555 0's wa skp eunnx 471

Vaughel, B..T. 2)... ..c00seee peak rate ieee So

White, John L. ........... qeveceaaeeses chbebideews .. 847

Woodman, SG Gunikaowen papas anew ‘neice ewnande 672

' Yunker, Elkan H. (deposition nae”

Stipulation eT eer rete seston ee eeees eee

“Masren’s Wrrwese.

Rice, —_ W. poe PT ert Tete Teeter Petter 378

Davanvanr’s WITNEssEs. |

Arnold, Lloyd .......... ee eas cane 1061

_ Black, Robert A. =. .s>-..... waisesekne ee PEM .. 1295

-Bundesen, Herman N. ..............0-0cececeee ese 1206 -

- Dnlak, Francis A. .....°............ Pr erie atte eee

Krueger, Paul F. .........:... pack tobisheewee vis 1... 968

— ee ee

cal

— —en

{

iii

Martinek, Matthew J. ....:....... an eatatie tbe was ...1001

I IE Gas cch cede sarabouedsinbausduecesoee 1032 -

Reynolds, Harry J. .......... Mik iniVes ees cas ccna’ 1237

Rudig, Delmar M. ............. PPOTTTTEOTEE NITE.

- Tonney, Fred O. ....... sisbecchietnen vanbsicen cae

Report of Conference with Master....... reknucaes 1307 -

Report of Discussion SN Ms cock cui ch ieaews 1328

af Pits $.

Puanerier’s EXHrsrrs,

—

™

: Dairy Products Co. ............ bpp 11471

_ Me’ 8Eeter Nov. 28, 1936—Sullivan to Fuller... .1471.

No.. 7—Letter Nov. 30, 1936—Foote to Fuller......1472 .

No, 8—Letter Dee. 1, 1936—Moffett: fo. Silver Seal

Dairy Products Oo... 2.0.60. ceseeciesenece 1473

_ No. 10—Letter Dec.: 2, 1936—Grim to Silver Seal

REE NE RIALS ivdecweass ..1474°

_ No. 11—Letter, Jan..5, 1937_- Williams to Fuller..... 1474

No. 12—Article ‘Sanitation of ~~ Milk Con-

ET Sie Gcbehepeeendbd's ahereeSnnss kee é) 1477

No. 13—Photograph of pint glass milk ‘bottles and

65 Fae pen nv eae Ob whee ctnesa sees '.. 1493 ©

‘No. 14—Photograph of quart glass milk bottles......1495

No. 15A—Photographs from advertising literature of ¢

| Ex-cell-O Corporation .........7..........06 1498

No. 16—Article ‘‘Single Service Containers: for Milk ;

ond Mik Prodiasia”® ......:..0.305.5500%0. 1503

No. 17—Article ‘Reasonable Sanitary Standards for

Paper Prod ee 1507 -

No. 18—Article ‘*When are Milk Conthiners and _Equip-

; . ment Clean and Sterile” .................. 1514 -

No. )}19—Report of second: conférence on Sanitation of

+ _ Paper Milk Containers, Etc. .......... *....1518

aE # pees 1 to 000; Vol. Et peeve 600 to 1004; Vol EIT pages 1008 fo ;

wy,

No. 4—Report of Dr. Arnold, Dec. 4, 1937, ote. : vase.

No. 5—L etter. Nov. 27, 1936—Packer to Silver Seal

. iv

Article ‘‘Paper Containers for Milk; Prin-

‘tiples of Sanitation to be observed in

their Manufacture and Use’’...... eee | -,)

No. 21—Article ‘‘Proposed Standards ee Paper Milk

TP IEP I 4) SESE, RS 1534

_ No. 22—Article ‘‘Sanitary Problems in Connection

with Paper Containers for Milk’’.......... 1540

- No. 23—Letter Feb. 18, 1939—Sanborn to Ewing... .1545

No. 24—List. of cities using paper milk containers,

; EE I, le soo bk ci cba cea oes 1546 ©

No. .25—Letter Nov, 14, 1938--Sanborn to Dwyer....1548 -°

No. 23—Photograph of printing press feed—Gardner. |

e ES. ONES Dee OY A Ee ORES 1549

No. 34—Photograph of carton blanks ready for glu-

Bie Wee GHD, os «5. ooo Sas avzasccstec 1551

No. 35—Photograph. of ‘carton blanks ready for ship- |

| MRE COUG Searched pdvee a caensovnteeae lie 1553

' No. 36—Photograph of blank ready for gluing, capped .1555 —

No.37—Photograph of carton blanks i and ready

: ia ce einn eo bake seks salebaden.c 1557

No. 38—Photograph of finished cartons in flat form” ~

packed for shipment ......... PebAed eine nes 1559

No. 39—Sheets headed ‘‘Samples of ‘Milk Bottle Car-

| tons,’’ tests by Harry C. Fisher............ 1561

No. 42—Photograph — Model ‘‘C’?—Soaker Bottle

Washer -2........¢.,. Sieebaukakeeen aca £1563

. No. 44—Photograph of paper bottle and glass bottle

| filled with milk at 15 degrees below zero...... 1565

‘No. 45—Letter June 23, 1939—Hoffman to Gariepy. .1567

No: 46—‘‘Study on Self- Purification of Paper’’.....1572

No. 47—“‘Bacterial Condition of Pure-Pak. Con-

| RES ORS ERIS PRS opener cs 1573

No. 47A—‘‘Bacterial Condition of Pure-Pak Paraffined

Container as revealed by Four _ Different

Methods’’. .......... cuidauneceny ibis cieess 1574

srat ¥ paews 1 to Gon; Wot HF pages O00 to iene: Vol TET regwe 1808 w

No. 48—‘‘ Bacterial Condition of washed and sterilized

>. bottles in two planfs in Chicago’’.......... 1575

No. 49—‘‘ Bacterial Condition of 132 Pure-Pak paraf-

fined containers from eleven different milk

Pee er a

No. 50—**Study. on the Bacteriological Condition of

9 the Paraffin Bath in Pure-Pak Machine’’. .. .1576

No. 51—‘‘Bactericidal Property of Paraffining’’... ..1578

No. 52—‘‘Contamination of Milk by Pure-Pak Machine ;

where practically sterile milk was bottled’’. .1579 _

No. 53—‘‘Number of Bacteria Enmeshed in the Pa- .

per used for-Dairy Products’” ..........:... 1580

No. 54—‘‘Bacteriological Condition of Paper ‘Milk

Cortainers before being Paraffined’’........1581 -

‘No. .55—‘‘ Bacterial Contamination of Milk by the pour-

- ing lips of Glass: Bottles’’........ Gabisd waxes 1582

_ No. 56—‘*Number of Bacteria on and in ‘Siline for Ae

g. Pure-Pak Container Pouring Lip’’........ 1583

No. 57—‘‘Bacterial. Contamination of Milk by the _

_ Pouring Lip of Pure-Pak Containers’’. .... .1584

No. 58—‘‘Effect of Parafffming on Bacteria when con-

' tainers were inoculated befoft Paraffining’’. .1586

No. 59—‘‘Bacterial counts of 50 glass bottles and 50

Pure-Pak Containers”? ........... oe A ad eg 1587

No. 60—‘‘Bacterial Condition of Adhesives used in.

Mpe=ie, Pure-Pak :Containers”’ ..............-. ... 1588

_ No. 61—Letter Sept. 12, 1939, Fuchs to Rall.:......1589

‘‘Public Health Service Sanitation Advisory ©

Board Action on Single- Service Contain-

: CN cabaret civccancaekwaeanns 1590

No. 62—‘‘Sanitary Aaperty of | Paper Milk - Con-

‘ EN GAR GARbNGA Lab en Ncaanenanedwe atest 1591

No. 63—‘‘ Are Paper Milk Containers Sanitary?’’. ..1600

No. 64—Certificate of Incorporation - of Fieldcrest

Dairies, Ine, ....J... [ovveersees ceeeou «....1609

Se een ae va a nee ee © men va Sr ew a

” 997.

} | \ ; y % .

“+ { : 4 %

. No.

No.

65—Certificate to do hautenin | in Illinois of Field:

IE Gy ND io 5 ok Skee ences Penacucce 1613 —

66—Photograph of two trucks containing crated

ee Sener ore ue Serene 1619 ”

: 67—Photograph of truck iitatatatead milk bottle

crates OP Ear aptane 2b ing AR RN bes dee ewan 1621

Se ts Bink

; 70—Photograph of: two trucks which crates con-

See ee SI, ol ie Vel exes bans 1627

. T1—Photograph of truck mibaiaie milk bottle

crates with crated bottles in shed in back-

"ground AA REMS OAR a wR oa Cae eRe Nee ’, 1629

; 72—Photograph of crate with = milk bottles

NA a oe eek 1631 °

; 73—Photograph of milk bottle at laboratory with

E. R. Faust\.. . PRI Ge pe 4S 112 aE er REN 1633

. 74—Photograph of colored man with milk bottle

_at junk yard 2048 W. Lake Street .......... 1635

le 75—Photograph of elose- -up of bottles i in front of

ie We Lila Ph ee RS 1637

i 76—Photograph of eats bane in Illinois Cen-, —

tral YATES o.oo i cece eQeeecvensncvedtisewe 1639

. 77—Photograph of junk yard’ employees loading

empty bottles into a milk bottle crate ......1641

. 78—Photograph of milk bottle at County Morgue .1643

. 79—Photograph of push cart man placing empty ©

milk bottle in sack..... JAAR ged api ae ay Te 1645

. 80—Photograph of E. R. Faust in front of filled

milk bottle crates in junk yard....... a 1647

, 81—Photograph of man at quarry dump picking

up milk botile...... es sic Os Mice’ “<. 1649

Wel. ¥ pages 3 to O00; Vol. HT pages O00 to 1004; Vol. HIT pegwe 1688 to

17.

——e

” -a999.

¢ C4

No.

‘ No.

No.

' No.

No.

No,

No.

Vii

83—Letter Dee. 17, 1937, Arnold to Scott........ 1651

84—Letter Arnold to Scott.................... 1652

85—Letter Nov. 12, 1937, Fuchs to Dean, Jr... .1656

86—Letter Nov. 26, 1937, Frank to Dean, Jr. :...1657

87—Letter Feb. 7, 1938, Arnold to Scott..:..... 1658

88—‘‘Arnold’s suggestions.to Board of Health.

ip MN HG SI ok cela 5 0S asco s Vea ba itso x . 1658

89—Letter Oct. 6, 1939, Dashiell. to Bundecen.. .1661

92—Letter Sept. 16,1939, Fuchs to Scott........1662 _

fateaniis' s Exuusrrs, -

1 ‘a 1B—List of questions by Rall submitted to

Carpenter before his deposition, ete. ......1663

1A—Index card containing notes of Carpenter. .1664

_2—‘Microbiology in pulp and paper manufac-

ae SRS PA RPE UREN PORE piNh eens -. 1665

7—‘‘Number of bacteria enmeshed in the body ©-

en of the ‘paper’? ORI ee nC De bade een -.1671

8—Sample receipt stub Board of Health, Bureau

of Dairy Products ............. abuses 1672

-9—Laboratory card used in bacteriological and

chemical examination of milk by Board of

Health ...... Penehesies + ved wus eae bone 2.1673

10—Tabulation of bacterial content of empty

milk bottles examined by Board of Health,

OE er here se eae eine nar ree .1674

11—Record of bacterial content of empty 1 quart. |

milk bottles examined by Board of Health, ete. 1674

12—Sample as exhibit 11, except wane tabulation '

of pint bottles ..... Sc kaccen «6 vee desea. 1675

13—-Same as exhibit 11, but being for 4 quart _

bottles Se TT EERE TELE E LEER ECET SOTO ER 1675

‘14—Same as exhibit 11, but being for 4 pint

EE id banc 54s See aa Ai Oh ia RRO e Oe 1676

15—Tabulation of laboratory record cards ‘show-

ing violations but size of bottle unclassified. .1676

Yeh E baaws 1 to 608; Vol I pages 000 to 1004; Vol. TIT pages 1098 to

No.

No:

No.

: eee

. 16—Section 10, U. 8. Public Health Service stand-

ard milk ordinance ............. ery ee 1677

- 17—Copy of section 10, of Public Health Serv-

ice milk ordinance as: amended June, 1939. . .1678

. 18—Tabulation of samples of empty milk bottles

“and results of bacteriological examination,

eM ee were pare eer ine re ee ee 1679

? 19—Tabulation showing results of ss iuees experi-

mente i435. Oe on diiad Gea cules BUG Awks ees 1687

. 20—Report of tests: using wet wait ais plaques

after being run through paraffin bath, ete. . .1689

. 21—Result of tests as in exhibit 20, but experi-

_’ ments conducted at later time ....... circ 1691

. 22—Letter January 13, 1936, Dean Milk Co. to

I Sk ak 0 a bu sd peal pas ae Seabed 45.50% 1692 ;

. 23—Letter August 2, 1938, Ex-Cell- O Corp. to:

TN a 1693 °

. 25—Regulation aatoiad aches 6, 1935 concern-

- ing type of milk and cream to be used i in man-

ufacture i I 556 6c bas 6 a3 oa AS 1695

. 26—Regulation adopted Nov. 12, 1935, requiring

that milk and milk products be served and

dispensed to consumer in original unopened _

container as received from distributor..... 1697

. 27—Resolution adopted July 18, 1939, as to use of

standard nutrient, agar, prescribed in 6th

edition 6f American Public Health Associa-

_ tion ‘‘Standard Methods of Milk Analysis’’.1697

29—Resolution presented to Board of Health Oct.

_ 16, 1839 with respect to single-service con-

| ey errrerseve ree ',. .1698

30—Letter June 27, 1939, Ranan to Bundesen....1705 -

31—Excerpts from minutes of Board of Health

', -mectitig May 15, 1980. 2.5. .0.agce esc e esse. 1705

Wot pages 1 to O08; Vol HE pages O00 to 1806; Vol. TIE pages 1008 to

Objections to depositions filed April 27, eee 1709

Master’s report filed April 27, 1940....... POS ESE .. 1710

3 Notice of objections filed May 7, 1940............... 1737

* “ Objections to Master’s report filed May -f, 1940..... 1738

Notice of motion filed May 14, 1940..... ivcuacu ces 1750

Motion for decree filed May 14, 1940.............. 1751

Order continuing motion for entry of decree entered

May 14, 1940 ecesecveveccccesvcccccessovcccscces chtOe

Memorandum filed October By é bAaN Soothe cen 1752

. Findings of fact filed October 23, 1940.............. 17

Conclusions of law filed October 23, 1940...........:1758

Decree ‘entered October 23, 1940:.......... ASaehiene 1759

' Master’s certificate filed October 23, 1940.......... 1761 -

Notice of appeal filed October 23, 1940.............- 1762

- Statement of points filed November 15, 1940....... 1763

Clerk’ p Certificate of service... .. occ cc ccccccssees . .176E

_. Appellant’s designation for short record....... Ser:

Bond on appeal....¢.......+++++++ euwabnkees Seeeaee 1767

I ac ciate ccchabidusseacceccieccaneee

Motion for stay of decree filed October 24, 1940......1770

Order denying stay of decree filed: October 24, 1940...1771

Designation of record....... Pe TO DEP DOP ey ore 1772

Order re filing transcript..................... Noe 1774

_ Stipulation as to exhibits................ are

Se SPT eT PTT CRT Tee we Y

Clerk’s certificate ..... Sek ihn ae eee Wyre 1776 °

Stipulation as to printing ..............00.-. sees eee 1777

seTst F peave 1 Go oe; Wok HE pages GOO wo 3a0e; Vol TI peewe 1008 t

3 a)

eS v2 (Caption) °° .

Tuesday, September 12, 1939,

10 o’clock a. m. | ;

_ Met, pursuant to adjournment.

Present: Deets

; Mr. Gariepy, Mr. Rall.

Mr. Schaefer, Mr. Horan.

883 Mr. Gariepy: If the Master please, there has been

considerable talk with regard to the United States

Public Health Service rules and regulations and sugges-

tions pertaining to milk control, tests and standards. I

would like, for-the*purpose of clarifying the record con-

cerning the position of the United States Public Health

PRS i 609

‘Service, to ask counsel for the City whether they will °

stipulate that any work of said body, the United States

Public Health Service, or the advisory board thereof, is

_amerely advisory work and is not regulatory or manda-

tory upon any city or municipal authorities or board of

health thereof. ep,

The Master: That is the fact, is it not, Mr. Schaefer?

Mr. Schaefer: That is the fact, yes.

‘Mr. Gariepy: Purely advisory.

The Master: Off the record. raat

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Gariepy: I think we ought to have that clear, that ©

all questions concerning any yreetings the board has had

or any recommendations the board has made are merel

standards and suggestions and do not bind the plainti

or the City of Chicago in this case.

I would like to call Dr. Arnold to the stand. Take the

. gtand, Doctor, please.

884 Mr. Schaefer: On what ground or principle? °

Mr. Gariepy: I have the right to call any witness .in

the court room that I want to call, who is present.

_ Mr. Schaefer: ‘I object to their calling Dr. Arnold.

Mr. Gariepy: What is the ground of the objection?

. Mr. Schaefer: Dr. Arnold will testify in this case. Dr.

Arnold will niga’ f when I put him on.

The Master: thought you. had some other witnesses

you were going to put on today, Mr. Gariepy. —

on at Sees

. 610 Transcript of Testimony Before Mastér.

Mr. Garieny: I do, and I have got the witnesses, and’

we will be here all day, but I want to start out by saving

a lot of time, thereby honoring the Master’s suggestion

of keeping the record down, by identifying certain records. -

The Master: You are entitled.to call him as a witness.

_’ Mr. Schaefer: We will be here all week. Iti is all right |

with me, if you want to do it this way. tas

The Master: Off the record again, please, : :

‘(Further discussion off.the record.) a

The Master: You may call him, if you wish.

Mr. Schaefer; — I don’t think Dr. Arnold has been sworn

as yet.

Mr. haa ‘All right. . _ Yas

885 LLOYD ARNOLD, called as a witness on behalf of

the plaintiffs, being first duly sworn, testified as

follows : .

° Direct Mientaation by Mr. Gariepy. -

State your name.

Lloyd Arnold.

Your address?

5844 Stony Island.

What is your business or occupation?

Professor of bacteriology and public health at the

iversity of Illinois, College of Medicine. .

. And how long have yon been such?

o. About fifteen years.

pe Chicane . member of Sars Board of Health of the

og eae Yes, -

Q. Were you such in the year 1937 ’

A. No, sir.

Q. Doctor, I show you a book or pamphlet marked

April 27, 1939, as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 4, which was so

marked when the deposition was taken: Will you look at ©

that and tell me whether you ever saw it before? (Handing

document to the witness. )

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who prepared it?

A. I prepared this.

Q. Does nat bear your signature?

-POPOPO

CTR EAE DN OER BID oes LM ice

Testimony of iidoyd Arnold. - . 611

886 Q. Did you hand Plaintiff’s ibit 4 or deliver

‘Plaintiff’s Exhibit 4 to Dr. Hermah Bundesen, then

‘president of the Board of Health of the City of Chicago,

. in the year 1937, on or about December 4th?

Mr. Schaefer: That is objected to as immaterial, if

the Master please. _ .

The Master: What is this supposed to bet A report

_ to Dr. Herman N. Bundesen by Dr. Lloyd Arnold, on a .

single ) arpa fabricated qparaffined peper container for —

fresh fluid pasteurized mik, December 4, 1937. I will |

overrule the objection. He may answer.

. The Witness: A. I give it it to Mr. Krueger of the

Board of Health.

Mr. Gariepy: Q. And hat is his position there, or

office ?

A. I think he is in charge of the dairy division. ;

. Did you ev éliver the same’ exhibit, No. 4, to

Dr. Herman Bundesen? /

A. I talked to Dr. Bundesen about it. I don’t know

whether he has seen it or not.

“i hy whom did you prepare said report, Plaintiff’s

it 47

A. For a Mr. Scott o'’ the Ex-Cell-O Corporation.

Q. — over what period of ‘time were you preparing

887 A. I think about a month or two months, not more

than a month, hardly, as I remember it.

. Were you- paid for. your services in securing the

—_ in m Prepering that'!

7 jon ven how much? 7

A. I think it was $250. <

4 By whom?

tbe the Ex-Cell-O pd weg Mr. Scott.

Q. the morth of August, 1939, did you or any

manber af tap Boast! of Heals ob the ‘City ‘of Chicago

attend a meeting of the advisory board of the United

States Public Health Service at Minneapolis?

Mr. Schaefer: Thut is objected to, if the Master please.

The Master: It is preliminary. I will let him answer. °

The Witness: A. I dd not know of any advisory board

_meeting at that time.

612 ‘Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

a Gariepy: Q. Do you know of any meeting of the -

board during the month of p feos fh or July, 19331

Mr. haefer: This is. the advisory board of the United

States Public’ Health Service?

Mr. Gariepy:. This is the advisory board of the United

States Public Health Service,-that you mentioned the other

_ day, when Dr.Orvis was on the wifmess stand. You

said they had recently sivantlgaicd some rules and

888 regulations that were new.

' The Witness: A. There was a meeting either in

June or July—I don’t know just when it was—this year.

' Mr. Gariepy: Q. ste

A. In Washington, D

Q. Did you attend? —

A. No, sir.

Q. Did any member of the Siaca of Health of*the City’

of Chicago attend, that:you know of?

_A. Well, Mr. Krueger is on the advisory board, but

not as a member, as connected with the Board of Health.

Q. The question is, did he attend? ;

A. He attended, yes, sir.

Q. » What date was that?

A. I don’t recall the date.

Mr. Gariepy: That is all, Doctor.

The Master: Any cross?

“ra Schaefer: I would like to _ at that exhibit, first,

please.

° ‘The Master: Yes.

Mr. Schaefer: No cross-examination.

Mr. Gariepy: That is all, Doctor.

(Witness excused.)

Mr. Soeer Mr. Scott.

889 GEORGE D. SCOTT, ‘oiled as a. . witness on behalf

of the plaintiff, having first been dul swo peeti-

fied as follows: | s or y

Direct Reaminetion by Mr. Gariepy.

State your name.

George D. Scott.

And your address.

1200 Oakland Boulevgrd, Detroit, Michigan.

Sieg PO

. Testimony of George D. Scott. 613°

Q: What is your business?

A. The manufacture of a Pure-Pak machine fcr single

service containers.

Q. — what is your “capacity with the Ex-Cell- 0 :

— a.

ational sila manager for the Pure-Pak division.

ry ‘How long have you been such?

A. .'Three years. PS

_Q. What are your duties?

- ° A. To supetvise sales of the branch sales offices .

throughout the country and to conduct our advertising ©

division.

-Q. Are you acquainted with the places, cities and vil-

lages in the United States wherein your product, the

Pure-Pak container, is being used for the sale of fresh

fluid milk, at this time?

- A, Yon, af. -

Q._ How many cities and villages are using said Pure-

Pak container?

890 Mr. Schaefer: If-.the Master please, I ‘object to

that. The first time we went into that you. reserved

your ruling on materiality. We have been into it now some.

" ten or fifteen times during the entire progress of the case.

There is no particular advantage served by going intc-it

again,

The Master:. Oh, I will let him answer. ©

The Witness:. A. Ww e are in the principal cities through-

out the United States. |

Mr. we: * Name them.

-A. New York City; eek O Pennsylvania; Balti-

more, ‘Maryland; Washington, D. C.; vay on, Ohio; Indi-

anapolis, diana; Detroit, rehiets oes Bi Min-

nesota; Seattle, Washin on 8 Angeles, California; San

Francisco, California; , California; Phoenix, Ari-

zona; Flint, Michigan ; peer Kentucky ; are among

the cities that we are in.

Q. How many cities and villages, do you know, are

using it?

A. Acgording to a personal survey of mine, four hun-

dred and eighty-one at this time. *

Q. And approximately how many Pure-Pak containers:

are being sold daily?

A. Between three and four hundred thousand.

614 ‘Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

‘Have you had occasion. during the past. three

891 years to make contact with the New York —

mental station at = New York? |

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you had occasion cure fs 4 ast thoes years

to.meet Dr. Arnold and members o oard of Health

of the City of Chicago?

| A. Yes, sir.

_ _.Q. When did you first meet members of the Board of

Health of the City of Chicago, with regard a the use

of the Pure-Pak container in the city of Chicago |

__ Mr. Schaefer: That is objected to as immaterial, if the

Master please. |

The Master: Overruled.

The Witness: A. I first mét Mr. Paul Kroeger, s..

would say, in the last ten days of October, 1937. -

Mr. Gariepy: Q. Is he an employee of the Board of

Health? ;

A. I understand he at that time was the chief of the

milk division 6f the Department of Health. . 5

Q. What was the purpose and object of your ‘meeting

- him at that time?

A. Well, I wanted to discuss with Mr. Krueger the

possibility of obtaining a permit for allowing our machines

to operate bere in the city of Chicago. -

892 - : g _ distributing the Pure-Pak container?

Q. And was that the occasion for your contacting the

New York experimental station at Geneva?

A. No, sir. The New York experimental station had

been contacted before that time.

‘ Q.. Have you met Dr. Arnold, who testified here a

minute ago?

Yes.

Q., What was the occasion n of Ye moctlag Dr. Arnold?

_A. Ina conference with Mr. Krueger— .

The Master: Q. When?

A. This same conference, Master, in s Se last ten days

. of October, 1937. —

Mr. Gariepy: Q. Proceed.

A. (Continuing) —I ask Mr. Krueger what he thought

of our efforts with the Breed-Sanborn group in Geneva,

_New York, and Mr. Krueger replied that while he had a

lot of sees for the pice uae in the New York State

| Testimony. of George D. Scott. 615

Agricultural Experimental Station, they were too far

away from Chicago to work as close wifh the Chi

Board of Health as they would like to. have them work, |

and for that he recommended that it would be

helpful to us if wetWould contact someone locally to carry ~

_ on this work for us.

893 2. Did he name’ the person to contact?

. Yes, he did.

Q. Who was it?

A. He tld me to get in touch with Dr. Lloyd A. Arnold.

2. And did you do so?

‘Yes. var

Q. How-long after you had this conversation with Mr.

— - you contact Dr. Arnold here?

As I reeall, it was the same day. —_—.

And where did you see him? | oo

At his offices on West Polk street.

What happened at that meeting between you and Dr.

rnold in securing data for the matter of the Pure-Pak con-

tine and its use in the city of Chicago? :

; Well, I told Dr. Arnold—I had never met Dr. Arnold

efeen and upon vagy Sey te in his offices there on West

Polk street Ito! told him I been to see Mr. Krueger that

_ thorning and that Mr. Krueger had told me that Dr. Arnold

had been doing research work for the Chicago Board of _.

Health for a saga many years and that they had ‘every ©

‘confidence in orld in the type of work that had been

done by Dr. Arnold, and that if we could get Dr. Arnold to

carry on this research work for us he felt there would be

no difficulty i in finally establishing a permit for us to

- 894 operate in Chicago.

g Did you engage Dr. Arnold to do the work?

A. sir. .

Q. Was there any fee agreed upon for the services to,

be rendered? |

A. Yes, sir.

es How much was it? —

Dr. Arnold thought that it would require about .

three months to complete his .work and that it ought to be

worth about a thousand dollars..

9. = you agree to pay. he's thousand dollars?

es.

Q. Did -” isunodintety elievoende aid him 1 in the mat-

om . ° :

e Y “

616 | Transcript of Testimony Before ne.

ter of securing ‘data for the preparation of a ‘report. ‘Stile

I . ‘ou, marked as Plaintiff’s Exhibit.4 here?

es, sir, I did. ‘

.. And'where did you next meet him, after meeting him

olk street at his office?

es I next met Dr. Arnold, by agreement by telephone ;

between ourselves, at the New York State a Col- |

lege at Geneva, New York.

o. ‘And how long were you there with him? ier

. All day. Al ai

ta Gathering data?

‘And who did you see there and discuss this mat-

895 ter with? ,

A. “Dr. Arnold and myself and Dr. Breed, director

of the experimental station, and Dr. Sanborn,. were the

_ principal people. .

Q. Where did you go after that?

A. After discussing the situation all das ‘there in

Geneva, Dr. Arnold thought that it would be well if we had

all— :

Did hé say oot

. Yes. Dr. gue told me that he would like to have

all the data that he could get from the board source, from

the _ mill, whieh was located in Richmond, “West Vir-

Did you go there! ;

A. Yes, sir. |

@ . How long did you stay there with Dr. Arnold? -)

A. No, Dr. Arnold did not go to the board mill with me

Dr. Sanborn went with me as a technician, to pick ° the.

uired samples.

“e Where next dia you go with Dr. Arnold?

After completing the samples, Dr. Sanborn took them

_ back to Geneva for the carrying out of the bacterial work.

- I next met Dr. Arnold in Detroit.

What did he do in Detroit in regard to scouring. data

- . for the Board of Health?

A. Dr. Arnold called me on the phone, or else I called

_ Dr. Arnold on the phone, and he told me it ge

896 very beneficial to come to Detroit and get all

_ details surrounding the manufacture of the cavipmont

_° and visit with our = department of health ami

their first hand rience, since they had been working

directly with Pure-! ee ee

” Testimony of George D. Scott. 617

Q. Did you make. contact with your board of health in

Dotwelt Fer Dr. Arnold, to give him this data

ee And how many days was he in Detroit doing this

wor

A. I belieye two days. eee

Q. Where did he next go, if you know!

A. A few days following our conference in Detroit, Dr..

Arnold called me on the telephone at our Detroit offices and

asked me to comie to Chicago, that his work was progressing

well, and that there were only two or three other holes that .

‘he could see that needed plugging and that he wished to in-

he the carton cofiverting plant here in Chicago, where

e container blanks were converted from the board.

Q. What was the name of that company, Doctor?

‘A.’ The Chicago Carton Converting Company, located.in

the per ment section of Chicago somewhere. I don’t know

tly where.

“Did you go out, there with him?”

Q. Did bs ‘make an inspection there with Dr. Arnold?

A. Dr. Arnold, Mr. Livingston, Mr. Dean, Sr., and I be-

lieve Mr. Dean, Jr., all went out there with us.

Q. Then what further contact did you pave with Dr.

Arnold concerning further data for this r a

A. .After leaving the Chicago Carton Converting Com-

‘pany, Dr. Arnold wanted to see the Dean milk plant, so

there could be no possible objection as to the construction

of the milk plant, and we went out there. °

Q. Where was that plant located?

A. I believe it is on Fulton street. I am not very

familiar with that —— section. ;

, 9: Just out of the loop here?

Yes. .

. And then after that did you = further contact

with him and further data for this report. -

‘A. My-next recollection is that Dr. rope asked me to

come to Chicago for the p of simpl y going over. the

data that had been compi to see whether or not there

were any comments or possible suggestions along the

method of presentation, and I did come to Chitago and talk

with Dr. Arnold about the situation. -I. believe it was in my

thotel room at the Palmer House. ~

618 Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

898 .Q. What-date was that, approximately? -

A. I would. say that was about the first or second

of December, 1937.

Q. Décember, 19371

A. Yes.

.Q. Did you ever see this Plaintiff “ Exhibit 4 before? :

, A. .Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you see it the first tiie? ¢ :

A. The first time I saw it, 1 believe, was ‘at the éon-

ference in the hotel room, pridr to Dr. Arnold taking it to

the Board of Health.

. Did, you see him after he had taken it to the Board

ealth, or reported to you that he had?

¥h Not immediately. From my hotel room Dr. Arnold

called Dr. Bundesen’s office for an appointment, and did

+ not get che appointment at that time, and he asked me to

return to Detroit and that he wo make the appointment

within the next day or two and call me on long distance in

Detroit. During this same conference at the Palmer House,

Dr. Arnold felt that this was sufficient data*to—

'Q. Did he say this? Not what he felt.

. A., Yes, he told me he thought this was sufficient data

to obtain a permit, and, in fact, Dr. Arnold asked me in

what form we would like to have the permit, I mean,

899 whether it should be in letter form, and I replied to Dr.

: Arnold that it did not make any difference to us, that

bg was the standard accepted form we would be glad

_ to have

. When did you next hear from him after that? |

A. I believe it was on a Saturday, at 12 noon, he asked

me to be at my office in Detroit, at which time he would call

me and give me the results ‘of his conference with Dr.

Bundesen’s office. c

Q. Did he call you in Detroit on that Saturday at noon?

A. Yes, sir, he did.

Q. And did he tell you of his conference with Dr.

Bundesen? B

A. - Yes, he did. he

. Did he give you the permit or say he had a permit?

A. No. He said that he: was not able to get a permit

.and that he did not understand the situation; as a matter

of fact, he told me he had never taken such a ‘lashing from

anybody in his life as he had taken from Dr. Bundesen,

because he had proceeded with the gathering of this data

Masini of. George D. Scott. a \g19 ;

on behalf of Pure-Pak without first consulting Dr. Bends.

“gen personally. |

Q. Subsequent to 1937 did you have occasion to see the

. president of the Board of Health, Dr. Black, inthe year of ©

' , 1939, concerning the use of the Pure-Pak. container in

900 the city of Chicago? - . ;

A. Dr. Black, yes, sir, I did.

Q. And when wae that that you saw Dr. Blackt

A. Just a minute, please. About two weeks prior to

- January lith. I realize that is perhaps an odd answer,

but Ihave January 11th definitely fixed i in my mind. It was

two weeks prior to January1lth. -

. Where was this meeting with Dr. Black? bs

A. In Dr. Black’s office here in Chicago.

The Master: What year was ‘this?

_Mr. Gariepy: 1939.

Who was present at that time, Mr. Scott?

A. Dr. Black, and, I believe the gentleman’s name is

Major Conley or Major Courtney. —

‘Mr. Schaefer: Conway.

‘ The Witness: Conway, yes, Major Conway.

The Master: Q.” Where was this meeting? -

A. In Dr. Black’s office here in-the city. hall, sir.

. At the Board of. Health?

A: At the Board of Health, yes.

Mr. Gariepy: Q. Did you have a conversation with, him

then concerning the Fieldcrest Dairies using the Pure-Pak

container and your “container being used?

A. Yes, sir, Fdid.

901 Q. What did you say to him concerning the S otalt

for the use or why you could not use it and so on?

A. ‘I told Dr. Black that I had not had ‘the opportunity .

of meeting him personally before and that in my opinion,

as a member of the board, perhaps he had, not been advised

of all of the situation concerning this thing and all of our

efforts over a period of months, and JI would like the oppor-

tunity of presenting to him personally some of the situa-

tion that we had gone throu 2 poe in order to satisfy the Board.

of Health, and he said he did not know whether he had heard

re the story, but he would be glad to hear it from me per- ‘-

When & finished the conversation with or near e |

close of the conversation, Dr. Black said ‘that e felt it

_ an unfortunate situation and that he would do something:

620 Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

about it, that the Ex-Cell-O Corporation had been ex-

tremely patient.

The Master: Had been what?

The Witness: Extremely patient.

‘Mr. Schaefer: I am sorry; I missed a part, of that an-

swer. May I have the answer read back, please?

(The witness’’ answer was read by the reporter as above

recorded.)

902 The Witness: A. (Continuing.) Dr. Black fur-

ther stated that this was one of the major problems

that lie had aired since: becoming ‘acting president; of the

“Board of Health and that: he certainly would make an in-

hor gr and that we would get some action and it would |

not take him two years to do it, and. he asked me to come

to his office about two weeks later for another conference.

Mr. Gariepy: Q. Did 3 you dq so?

A. Yes, sir.

_ _Q. And was the and conference at his office, at the same

place? | aes

A. Yes, sir, at the sans office. — yw

Q. And who was present then? - eae

A. In my sight there was Major Black—Dr. Black,

pardon me—Majot Conway, Mr. Sam Dean, Sr., Dr. Arnold,

- and Mr. Paul Krueger. |

‘ Q. And what did Mr. Black say to you on that” occasion

-.eoncerning the use of the Pure-Pak container in the city of

Chicago? ‘

A. Dr. Black said that in the meantime he had been so

busy that he had not been able to give the situation but

very little thought, but the thought that he had given it

had convinced him that he did not want to plunge off the

_ end of the board into this situation and that so far as

903 he was concerned at that time no permit | would be

. granted. :

And what did you say tohimt

; A. Well,.I asked Dr. Black whether or not he had an

personal objections to the distribution of milk in Pure-Pak

containers in the city of Chicago. .

Dr. Black replied no, he did not have any personal ob-

jections.

Then I asked Dr. Black, if he had no personal objections

what was the objection of the board based upon, and he said

that he thought, that it could not be propery distributed

under the present Chicago ordinance. :

Testimony of George D. Scott. * 621 :

I told him that we had checked the ordinance many; many

times and that in our opinion the ordinance was in no way.

antagonistic or unfriendly to temssingle service containers,

because they were simply not tioned, and since it Was

a matter of opinion on his part that they could not be used

and an opinion on our part that’they could be used, I asked

Dr. Black on the basis that he himself had no personal ob-

jections would he mind if we called in a referee, say one of

the federal judges in Chicago, to read briefs’ and decide

whether or not the containers could Eroeeny be used under |

‘the present ordinance. .

904 Q. What did he reply? .

_. A. Dr. Black replied that he would have strenuous

objections to any such action as that on our part.

Did you have any further conversation with him at

that time about securing a permit?

_ A. ° Lasked Dr: Black if there was anything i in the world

that we could do, to work with him in any way teward the

end of coming in and doing business ’in the city, and_he

_ said yes, there was one thing we could do. I agked him what

it was, and he said we should get. the data approved by the

United States Public Health Service, and I told Dr. Black

we certainly would try to do that, and I asked him directly

if I should'go to Washington and obtain a permit or obtain

the approval of the United States Public Health Service.

for the distribution of Pure-Pak Containers in Chicago,,.

whether or not he would then i issue-us a permit to begin -

our operations.:

Q. What did he reply to that, if anything? .

A. Dr. Black Bs geome that he would not. give us a ‘per-

mjt, even though it were approved by the United States

Public Health Sood 9D

. . This paeacaitiok and these requests were all made

on behalf of Fieldcrest Dairies, of which Mr. Dean is

905 president? — clcae

A. Yes, sir. |

_* Q. With whom you had a aes agreement at that time

_ for the sale of Pure-Pak containers and the use :of your

machine? —

_ Q. . Have yon heard from Dr. Arnold at any time since

December, 1937, concerning this report or the permit that

he discussed with you that month?

ee. Xea,.F had a letter from Dr. Arnold regarding the

pecan,

622 Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

9. What year was that?

The letter is. in the file, I believe, Mr. Gariepy. I

don’t recall the date at the minute.

Was it in 19371

I don’t believe it was. I believe it was in 1938.

’ Q. From 1937, when Dr. Arnold finished this report,

Plaintiff’s Exhibit 4, up until the time you saw Dr. Black

in January of 1939, what was done with regard to securing

statistical data and research — at the inte of

Illinois?

A. Well, in February—

'. Mr. Schaefer: That ‘is cisjected to, on the geet the

witness. cannot know. .

906 The Master: Do you know? ,

ifr. Gariepy: Q. Do you know this?

A. Yes, I know of a lot of work we did there, Master.

The Master: Go ahead. Tell us what you know and not

what you heard.

The Witness: A. “All right, sir. In February, 1939, we

. shipped a machine to the University of Illinois—1937, Feb- :

ruary, 1937, we shi a machine to the University of Illi-.

nois, in order that ey might make all of the practical and

sanitary and bacterial examinations on our equipment in

their own i

Mr. Gari this And what department or what men

— ag work on machine and, perform this research

work?! _

A. Dr. Tracy was to work on the practical application, 7

of the equipment in an actual dairy plant and M. J/

Prucha was to work upon the bacterial end of the experi-

ments. —

: . Was there any subsidizing of these two men in any

form, shape or pag mag in regard to the research work to

be at ag on with that machine at the university?

0, sir,

S Did yo u people ever pay them any money at all?

{ don't think so.

907 Qe To secure. any type of Keeiny favorable or

rs a. ou had any contacts with them in the way of

Ss or services in advance at any. time from Feb-

to this time? fe,

A. ~ Med at any time. <i Be. oe

’

Testimony of George D. Scott. 623

Q. Did you. people do anything with regard to check-

ing up on their reports from time to time, to see whether

they were favorable or unfavorable with regard to the

Pure-Pak container? |

-A. Yes, at various meetings and general conventions

held at the university I have attended myself, with associ-

ates of my company, and naturally at that time we have

asked for reports and checked upon the progress of the

_ experiments. é . ;

0. And was there any charge made for the machine

sent down there?

A. No, sir. . ; .

Q. And at whose suggestion was the machine sent there

for this experimental and research work? tie

A. Mr. Sam Dean, Sr., suggested that we send th

machine there. : ; , (re

Q. Mr. Scott, do Pa know .of the villages and cities

where the Pure-Pak is being sold now, and approxi- —

908 mately how many of them are ag under this

_ @ode called the United States Public Health Service

ordinance? — ;

Mr. Schaefer: That is objected to.

Mr. Gariepy: I asked him if he knew.

The Master: He may answer. -

_ ‘The Witness: A. Yes, sir, I do know.

‘ Mr. Gariepy: Q. How many?

Mr. Schaefer: Objection. e

Master: Overruled.

e Witness: A. Three.

Mr. Gariepy: Q. Name them.

_ A. Louisville, Kentucky, Seattle, Washington, Phoenix,

Arizona.

The Master: What is the last one?

The Witness; I said Phoenix, Arizona. |

Mr. Gariepy: Q. Do you know Mr. Leslie Frank, a

/ member of the United States Public Health Service De-

partment at Washington, D. C.? :

A. Yes, sir, I do. ' :

Q. Do you know—I thirtk ‘it is Colonel-Bush or Major

Bush? | . i. a ls eae

A. No, I have not met that gentleman.

Q.. Have you been in contact with the United

909 States Public Health Service with regard to the use

_ Of the Pure "ak container and any rules and regula-

tions that may be promulgated by said department?

624 Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

A. Yes, sir, I have.

_- ” _Q.. Do you know of any rule or regulation issued by

‘that department a e pagt three years, from the

_. time: you have been with the company, which restricts or

prohibits by way of s tion the use of the single serv-

ice container for the sale of Grade A milk in a city or

village? ; pa’®

A. No, sir, I.do not. |

Mr. Gariepy : Take the witness, Mr. Schaefer.

Mr. Schaefer: No cross examination... _

Mr. Gariepy: You may be excused, Mr. Scott.

(Witness excused.) ° :

Mr. Gariepy: Dr. Prucha.

MARTIN JOHN PRUCHA, called as a witness a

half .of the plaintiff, having been first duly sworn, tes-

tified as follows: |

Direct Examination by Mr. Gariepy. z

Q. rig Pod name, Doctor?

A. rtin John Prucha.

910 Q. Where do you live? |.

y A. 702 West Nevada street, Urbana, Illinois. |

_ Q. What is your business and occupation?

A. I am 4 teacher and carry on research work.

9. Connected ith what organization or body or school -

or laboratory? | :

A. I am connected as a teacher with the College of

Agriculture at the University of Illinois and as a research,

man I am connected with the Agricultural Experimental

Station of the same institution. |

Q. How long have you been such?

_A. I came to Illincis in 1913. I have been there ever

since.

Q. Pit caee degrees do you have from schools and col-

eges? .

A. I received my Bachelor of pred degree in

1903 from the Wesleyan University at Middletown; Con-

necticut. I received a Master’s degree at the same in-

- stitution in 1908 and received a Doctor of Philogpphy

gg in 1913 from Cornell University, Ithaca, New

ork. |

Q. From 1903 to 1910 what work were you engaged in?

Testimony of Martin John Prucha. ‘ 625

A. I was employed as bacteriologist in the New York

Agricultural Experimental Station.

._ Q. And from 1910 to 1911 what were you doing?

_ Ay Io .1910 and 1911 I held a university fellowship

at Cornell eee doing graduate work. ;

911 (). Since 1913: what has been your office at the

University of Illinois? Peay

A. I became an assistant professor, the same position .

I ‘held at Cornell before I left there, first, and then an

associute professor, and then a full professor later on in

the ecllege. Then in the agricultural experimental sta-

tion I became assistant chief, and finally in 1920 its chief

in research, in my field in the experimental station.

Q. is the Illinois Agricultural Experimental Sta-

tion :

A. Yes. }

Q. Who pays your salary, Doctor, for the work you

are doing there in the research in the Illinois Agricultural

_Exyerimenta] Station and on the staff?

A. About half of my salary comes, of course, from the

state funds, from taxation, from the b t of the uni-

versity, and the other half comes from federal govern-

" ment money, from the Hatch, I believe, and Adams acts.

‘ \Q. -How long have you been receiving some money

from the federal government under the Hatch Act and

Adams Act. ° :

A. Since 1913.

Q. What courses do you ‘teach at. the University of |

Illinois? ‘ |

$12 <A. I teach elementary dairy bacteriology, which

essentially is dairy sanitation, a. lecture course and

a laboratory course in the same field, and ynder my di-

rection is given another advance course in-the same field,

and I am giving two graduate courses leading towards

Doctor’s degrées for the students.. ©

Q.., Do you do work for boards of health of cities and

municipalities? Fae’ |

A. Well, I am not employed as such, but I have been

asked a good many times questions and have as a result

of their suggestions taken + experimental work.

. 9. — you done work for the city of Chicago?

. Yes.

Q. The Board of Health?

Q. Yes. ida

a eee

“@

626 Transcript of Testimony Before Master. _

A. Both in regard to—I have been here on two differ-

ent occasions giving talks to the inspectors. * |

Q. Of the Marae Board of Health?

A. Yes. Then a year ago last Fg early I had a

letter from Dr. Bundesen, asking if I could devote some

time to research work in the matter of pasteurization, the

introduction of this machine called heat exchanger or short |

time high temperature, that was coming up, and Dr. Bun-

desen and the Board of Health were not quite certain

about certain apy so they asked me and asked

913 Professor, Parfitt of Purdue to come up and see if we

could carry on some experiments on the subject, to

help them settle the matter. ‘

d. Are you a member of the International Association

of Milk Sanitarians?

Yes.

, + And also of the Dairy Science aviataiion?

- Yes

, ra the American Public Health Association?

aes %

And how long have you ‘been such?

I don’t know. - It would be years, a period ‘of years.

a you written any scientific articles on bacteria,

especiall “with regard to milk products and milk control!

i t is my specialty and practically all of the pub-

Hieations I put out are dealing with certain phases of it.

Q. How many of them have you put out?

A. Iam sorry, but I have not taken the time to count

_ PoP.

' them.

& Approximately?

. Oh, I should say they might be over @ hundred,

something like that. I don’t know. I do not even have

a reference to some of them: ..

_ 914 ._-Q. Have yop made a scientific and laboratory an- .

alysis gnd study of the sanitary aspects of paper

milk, containers?

_A. Yes.

Q. ‘And how many years have you made that study and.

done that work? .

A. We started in February, 1937. /

Q. At whose ion was that work ‘dei

A. I cah’t exe+tly give you information on that, be-

cause the transactions happen to be done through Profes- .

sor Tracy. It was the samé problem that Mr. Scott re-

ferred to when he said a machine was sent down to us.

Testimony of Martin John Prucha. — 627

. Did Mr. Scott suggest the undertaking of this

study and this research work, or did you and Dy. Tracy?

' A. We decided that.

9. The two of youf.

Yes. We felt that this was a new problem in the

aaity industry coming on, and that we, being responsible

to the consumers, trying to be of help to the board of health

and to the dairy industry, that we ought to go into the

mere and study it and supply information, if we could

get 1 .

Q. Did you have other machines, other than the Ex-

Cell-O machine, down there? ;

915 <A. Yes..- Sn

Q. To- conduct your research work on?

A. Yes.

Q. What other machines did you have?

A. We had the American Can machine. The two ma-

chines were on the floor at the same time. And then we i

used the Sealrite container. i three different

containers we used in our study. /

Q. “All three of them? gt ‘

A. Yes.

2: 7 igi American Can, and Sealrite?

a oe

/ Q. Who financed this study, Doctor, of the pre ae

—— of the paper milk container?

A. As I said before, personally I was responsible for .

tha€ work and I spent a fot of time on it; and my salary,

of course, came from the state and federal government

' funds. The facility for the work was offered by the com- .

_ panies, by supplying us with the machines, installing the

’ machines and supplying us with the containers. ,

‘Q. Is this study a project of the department of dairy

husbandry of the University of Illinois?

Q. What do you mean when you say it is a project

916 of theirs?

A. In a public institution of that kind we have a

set-up that any new study must be o.k.’d. I use the

word §*o. k.’’ °

Q. That is all right.

A. ty is not a good ‘word.

ahead.

Must ‘be approved by the head of the department,

by the director of the experimental station and, of course,

by the authorities of the university. So, of course, when

628 Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

we Plan any now chal in my case, for example, I out-

the project, what we would like fo do, what our plans

a of study, how much it will oy J how long

it will take, and py ets Ltt department.

Then the head. of the department studies it, and

—— ose with it. ho telne it up with the dizeste rector and dean

the college, and that is discussed, and when finally

“OC Aoktemadiamain”

n it is a project of the university? 7

A. Then it becomes a pro of the university, yes.

fig t Describe the nature of these investigations and ex-

periments that you say you conducted under this project.

A. Professor Tracy, of course, took responsibility

917 for the study in the plant, the plant study,. practical

| study, dealing with tho botiling und all of these prob-

lems, and my responsibility was to study the bacteriology,

the sanitation the whole problem.

- Q. What did you do in your study of the sanitary as-

pects of the Pure-Pak containers?

_ A. I felt myself that it is advisable when we go into it

and it is a new field, that we should start right from the

pe rg | So we started right with the paper mill, to some

extent e did not make too elaborate a study of the “4

mijl, only enough to see what the sanitary condition, bac- |

teriology, of paper making is, where contamination changes, i

— the idea of suggesting to the mill

-Did Fieldcrest Dairies or Mr. Scott or the Ex-

Cell-O Corporation pay your time and services going to

the mills, making this check-up?

- A. The question came.up that if we do this study we

have to go to the mill. F went to the hand. of ths department

‘Kise Vee tae aestamet ecaus tao Galion caeme

where I want the rtment to pay trave expenses

to the mill and foe He replied, ‘‘I have no money in -

the budget.’’ I said that of course I prefer to have de-

_partment money, but the companies all three companies

918 are offering te pay us the traveling expenses. He said

it is all — the department if I accept the travel-

"Q bid yo you do that?

ry Dia. yOu receive any compensation, other than tant

ing —— .

| <a

~ iellisiaae of Martin John Prucha. 629

~ N / no compensation,——~"}

any. time? 3

No, sir.

Q.. From any of the three companies?.

ry No, sir. I did not want that.

Will you tell the Master the tests you made and the |

detail of your study on the sanitary quality of the papér

- and the methods that were used in determining the matner

of sterility?

A. The laboratory methods that were. used—of course, .

fundamentally we were determining the number of bacteria

along the road and in the containers and to some extent we

_ also studied the of bacteria when we found any.

Q. + test did you make to ascertain the type and the

amount

A. We went in the pe: ser mill, for example.

_ The Master: In what?

iy Into the paper mill, and we took samples and took »

equipment with us, necessary equipment with os, and

919 used the laboratories, and took samples of the water

that they use for diluting pulp.. We took samples of

the pulp along the road, the path of the travel. We took

samples any piace we could think of, and finally we took

a of the finished product of. the paper in-the paper

The Master: Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

. Mr. Garie Q. Why did you do that, Doctor? ,

A. I felt that we wanted information on all these prob-

lems. I wanted to know personally, if I should. speak about

it, y- Siprat what the set-up in the paper mill is, how qualified

= mills are to produce products for food. -

& 2 thatfrom a research standpoint? | :

From a research standpoint, yes.

- _Q. And whaf about this matter of going to the mills

' from a practical standpoint, after you had ascertained and

after you know what the quality of the board is and the —

processés employed in the making of the board?

A. I don’t know whether I fully appreciate the question.

I would have'to refer to the mill to answer it ewhat.

_ Q. After you have been to the mill. :

920° <A. After I had been igpthe mill I found in the mill

that the man—they a laboratory man, a well

trained laboratory man, who I found had a very com-

- ‘

430 Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

plete control of the process. of operations, the manner of

sterilization of water and right through, and upon an ex-.

amination of the paper we found the paper there v was pree: |

. tically ‘sterile. ©

Q. . What do you mean by sterili Doctor?

A. We have a bacteriological de nition of sterility, that

it means complete freedom from all bacterial and al germ :

life, complete freedom from any kind of germ life.

Q. And what does sterility mean from a milk sanitary

point of view? >

A. gin the dairy operations the term was borrowed and

used gith a different meaning from a practical standpoint.

It means the reduction—really, strictly speaking, it means

the reduction of bacteria to a reasonable minimum, the re- —

duction of the total amount of bacteria to a reasonable —

Q. To the degree of safety?

A. Yes.

Q. What factors contribute to the low astesiea content

of aig p. per that you said you'examined? |

¢ paper board was made in such a way—as it is

mails, the wood is cooked, and when the cooked wood or

pulp comes out it is a hundred per cent sterile, bac-

921 teriologically speaking.

Then it is dituted with water, and if the water is not

pure, of course, the pulp will become contaminated by the

dilution of the water. It will also become contaminated

with bacteria from the equipment, if the equipment is not

kept rather clean.

n the pulp, after it is washed, goes in the bleaching

ge ess, and there it is again sterilized a hundred per cent.

o that it is perfectly sterilized. So when it comes from

‘the bleacher not a single bacteria is found in the mixture.

Then the third step is when finally the pulp is diluted . :

with water and passed over to be made into paper, the

layer of pulp or paper then runs oyer anywhere from thirty |

to one hundred and fifty steam rollers. These rollers are:

heated under pressure by. steam, so that the pressure they

_ use is about 250 ponnds—pardon me, about 15 ta20 pounds

pressure, as used on some @f the rollers, and the tempera-

ture is raised to about 250 Fahrenheit on the roller, and the

papér runs over it, so that when the paper comes to the

end and is taken off the roller the paper is sterile, from

- this cae of definition. | |

? eae >

Testimony of Martin John Prucha. - 631

Do you know the methods employed to prevent

922 caghiitiontion of that paper. board after it leaves the

rollers? - :

A. We followed it. We visited the place as it came off. fy

It is cut by machine in squares and the machine piles it on ©

something like this: ( demonstrating).. Then it is “wrapped

in paper and finally bundles of about 3500 pounds are piled

together in a bundle, and all wrapped in paper, and fast-

1 ened, and then in that condition, on rollers or ‘sort of skids,

it is ‘put into a raal oad car and transported to the carton

ider that a satisfactory procedure from

a sanitary standpoint? —

A. From what I saw was being done, yes. - ;

Q. Did you have occasion to go to the abriatng mill |

then? :

A. I did. ;

Q. And did you inspect that mill from a sanitary stand-

point?

A. I did.

Q. In regard to contamination and the preventing. of

contamination?

A. In the carton factory, you meant:

Q. Yes.

A. We did not take any bacteria samples there, because

- there is nothing to take:

Q. What do you mean, there is nothing to take?

a “A. The only thing we could have taken is to expose

923 plates to air or something like that. We examined the

paper after it passed through the plant, but: we ex-

~ amined the question of the storage of these bundles. We

* found that they were stored in air conditioned rooms, oe a

proper temperature. They were inspected regularly, to

prevent any entrance of any insects, and the general in-

ecg as far as kwas concerned and could figure out,

ey tried all they could and were willing to make any

a reasonable to comply with any requirements to

the product in a sanitary manner. /

Q. Did you perform such tests on the board over a pe-

riod, we will say, of twenty-four hours, to see whether the

bacteria survived or not, on the paper board, as it came

from that fabricating plant?

eae made tests. We made | some studies on the—I call

fake,

632 Transcript of sharia! Befove Master.

it self-purifisation of paper. I don t know whether you

have reference to that. ,

Q. The test you made in regard to how aot bacteria

survived after a period of twenty-four hours.

A. Yes. -We inoctlated—these samples—

Q. No, just follow my question, Doctor. Wi you find, :

in the sheaf of papers that you have before you, the results

of the tests that you perfrmed with regard to the

“924 survival of bacteria on the paper board?

A. Yes. May I explain this table?

Q. Wait, let us first get it marked.

A. It is the determination of the number of hosteria

_ after the container entered. the machine and it was formed

_-and the bottom was sealed before paraffining.

You run ahead of the question, Doctor,

he Master: Off the record, please. :

(Discussion off the record.) .

Mr. Gariepy: (Addressing the reporter.) Will ° you

mark this sheet for identification, please?

(The sheet referred to, containing results of tests made

by the witness, was thereupon marked for identification

“Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 46.)

The Witness: I tried to determine: this point—

i Ya Q. munerting to Exhibit 46? :

. Yes. :

Q.- For :Patificationt . :

A. Yes. If paper becomes contaminated in any way

‘with bacteria, how Jong will the bacteria survive in living

condition on the’ paper?

Q. And when did you’ perform ‘that/ ‘test, Doctor, with. -

regard to. the longevity of the bacteria, in the event _—

925 there is some contamination?

A. This test was performed last Wednesday.

Last Wednesday? .

Yes. I had others, but this I did myself here.

September 6, 19391 os ae ;

Yes. : cs

And where.did you perform it? 1 ,

At my laboratory in Urbana. |

‘And where did you get the product: or the board bad ¥,

ich you performed this test?

The board I got from the Cherry River Paper Mill.

a did you - them to pick out any parienier

Ee.

BOP

Testimony of Martin John Prucha. 633

A. No. , |

Q. . Or.just send you samples of board, or what?

A. Just send me samples of board. I didn’t tell what .

it was. I told them it would be examined for bacteria, but

the condition of the. paper had nothing to do with this - -

~ problem.

~Q. -What test did you appl and work out last week,

last Wednesday, with regard to this matter of the longevity:

of bacteria on this:‘board? -

_ Ar I took pieces four and a half inches long. and two

" inches wide, strips. I made a bacterial suspension, and I

-. dropped the. pieces of paper in the suspension, and then’

I kept it at room tempefature and examined it every

926 so often.

. And what- -did you ‘find after _ performing that

test, say after the first six hours?.

A. The bacteria died very rapidly on the paper. .

. Q.. Tell the Master and counsel just exactly what you

did find at that time that the bacteria died on the paper.

A. I dropped the paper in—

The Master: Q. Dropped it into what?

A. Dropped it into the bacteria suspension:

Q. What do you mean by that suspension? . —. i

A. I grew bacteria. .I will show you a plate. I wil

explain it. I grew bacteria something like this {exhibiting”

plate to the Master). You see the red bacteria. There

are millions and millions of bacteria in this red. Then I

mixed it with water and a little milk, so they would not die,

and then I dropped the paper in that suspension and the

suspension had roughly, I think, six hundred million xd

, teria per cubic centimeter.

Mr. Gariepy: Q. In order to contaminate | ae

eae in order to contaminate it heavily, the piece of

a :

927 Q Then what did you do next?

A. Then as soon as the water dripped off, I took it .

~ and disintegrated it inte pulp.

The board? ee fae )

4 It took about five minutes, yes, and I plated it im-

médiately, to count the bacteria in it on the — and this

is the first line. I made ten plates.

Q: “Referring to exhibit namibor 461

Yes, sir.

Q.. You made ten plates? ay //

634. Tranccript of Testimony Before Master. ~ |

A. In each plate I put two cubic centimeters, I took the

_ bacteria and 200 cubic centimeters of water, broke —

it aa and — 200 cubic centimeters of water, to it; and

I estimated the number of cdeates that

. Sovcloped’ te then I made another strip of paper, prepared _

. in tn the same way, that I kept thirty: minutes ard again sub- ~

+ jected it to the same treatment and I got this number of

_ ¢olonies.

4 How many is that?

. Four hundred and fifty.

.Q. After sixty minutes, how many colonies did you ‘find.

on the paper? | : |

A.” After sixty minutes, I found from 3 to 20. =e

~Q. The longest is two hours?

A. The longest.is two hdurs. Six of the ~shebin

928 did .not have any, and three :plates had one colony, |

’ - and one plate, two colonies: ee

3 — lates each had one eolony and they had none,

| the rest ¢ of

At the ond of nine hours?

A. I didn’t find any.

. Q,. At the end of ewenhy-tone hours? °

A. None. ° ;

2 That means what? — Spa

_ A. That means that after the paper is contaminated

and is held at room temperature and dries, the bacteria is

killed. The bacteria are killed by dryin ring.

_ Q. The purpose of this test, Doctor, was to bring out

whether bacteria would survive on‘this paper board after

you had contanfinated it. with bacteria and taken tests of _ .

the paper board after disintegrating it at the end of —

“a nine hours and twenty-four hours?

5 le

At the end of thirty minutes, five hours, nine hoiere’

twenty-four hours you found practically no bacteria

surviving on the board, is that right?

A t is correet. . In. other words, here is ‘the ;

___. point— . )

929 The Master: Q. After the board is disinterrated, ‘

’.. how could you find any bacteria on the board? .

A. I smashed the board all to pieces, diffused it in water eS

so that any bacteria living there will be — in the. on

~mixture.. . ;

‘Teelimong of Martin John Prucha. —— 635

ae Was the board in one piece while it was in suspen-

sion :

A. No. I had broken it up with the machine, com-

pletely. p

Q. . You just put little bits of it in this li uid? 3

A. I-just took the board, put it in the machine, agitating

the machine, cutting-it in smaller pieces and let the ma-

chine agitate until the paper, was reduced to pulp, then I

took some of this water to plate it. :

- Q. Some of what? :

A. * Mixed the water, took some of this water to plate it,

__to.see how many. bacteria I found in_that-mixture.—

is a method of trying to determine how many bacteria og

mained on a piece of board after they are reduced to pulp

' Q. Yeu took the board and cut it up into small its?

A. I took a piece of board and dipped it into the bac-

teria suspension for about ten seconds and when I.

- 930 pulled it out, after‘ the last drop fell off I put’ it into

- the machine and broke it up into pulp.’ I felt this is a

-better method to count the number of bacteria on the board,

te _ by. smashing it up completely.

~Q. Then what did you do ‘with it?

_A. Then I plated it. I determined the nuimber of bac-

teria in this mixture:

Mr. Gariepy: He took out: portions of this mixture after

it had been .immersed in this contaminated liquid and

plated it for the number of bacteria he would find, and

counted ‘them. :

The Master: Q. You took a segment of this board

Yes.

Now, what did you do.with the pieces of the board,

. A. - Yes.

' @. And dipped it in this mixture, first?

A.- Yes, sir..

- Q. Then you took out the:board? _ ei

A. Took the same piece.

Q... With the contamination on it?

A: Yes.

> And ground up the board?

- did you put it in the mixture or put it on plates?

.A. The board was completely disintegrated. - eG

931 Q. What did you do wit those little _ after you

ground up the board?

A. a pup, itself?

Q. Yes

636 “Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

a it is right in bere on theee flates.

| 9 soe Ee Step Oe eet ?

—— You contaminatéd the board by aa © it: into

this mixture which had been contaminated?

‘A. Yes, sir. -

. Q...Then you ground up the board after it had been

removed f rom the contaminated mixture?

A. - Yes, sir.

Then you put that contaminated board on those

little bits of pulp?

A. After it was broken up.

~ Q. And put them on’ platest

‘A. Yes, measured quantities. |

7 Quantity of what? ..

put 2 cubic centimeters of the. mixture—

Mi Gariepy: Q. Doctor, I show you a series of six

plates— . eee

The Master-: Wait a minute, before you go anywhere.

(Discussion off the record.) .

‘ The Witness: Do you see the pulp i in there? | eae

932 The Master: Q. Let me follow you. You seem to

be going back and forth here. First you take a seg-

—_ . this board four inches by some other dimension?

es.

2. a dip that into a contaminated mixture?

- . Q. So how long did you. leave the board i in the contam- -

inated mixture?

A. About ten seconds.

Q. You took out this piece of board with the contamina-

. tion on it?

A. Yes.

: 2. vo ‘you put it through a grinder or seunathitig't

A. . Yes

Q. Something that tears up the board into small bits?

A. -¥es, sir.

Q. What do you do with the small bits?

A. Then I take the whole mixture—

Q. Ew be is no mixture? :

A. ii is’ mixture of water and the. pulp, that i is what I

mean.

“Mr. Gariepy: Q- ~ These were actually. made by you?

A. Yes. hoes |

= have any srs” SA

Testimony of. Martin John Prucha.. — 637 — -

i results shown .on- these different “

933 - Yes, I just : icked them at random.

| @ That is marked five hours? —

AL sir.

a a What does that show. concerning bacteria? °

r At the end of five hours the plates look like this.

Q. Which is devoid of. any bacteria? -

A.- Yes, except this—there was one colony:on one plate

and ‘one colony on another plate. I took a plate that did

—Explain to the master what this plate i is that I show

we ‘now, and how many hours that was in?

A. I think that was thirty minutes. This was one hour

‘and this was two hours. At the end of two hours, holding

the inoculated piece of board in at room temperature, let-

‘ting it dry for thirty minutes, we got this (indicating) ; ;

«934

one hour, we got this (indicating).

The Master: Q. What do you get here? ‘All I see is

something with red spots.

Mr. Gariepy: Q. What do the red spote meant

' A. Each red spot, theoretically, is produced from one

living bacteria, it grows. :

The Master: Let’s see if I get/this traight, now. You

“<\ —_ skipping some-poiat. He

Q. oo, dip a piece of-this board into a con-

A ree iquid and take the board out? The con-

tamination is on the board, isn t uy...

A. Yes.

Now, you ‘say you ‘took this contaminated piece of

board and — into some liquid?

| your autrient liquid such as milk?

Sterile water? - .

A. Yes. ,

. Is there any time at all I elapsing between the final ©

disintegration of the board and the time when you add

A. This. particular number one was dipped for ten sec-

‘onds, the board, and at the end of ten seconds I took it

and put it in the machine and broke it up in five minutes

and then immediately I made plates. That took about

thre; minutes. So that from the time I inoculated the

638 Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

board until each plate was plated. was eight to ten minutes,

— ra and everything. Do you get that?

; You see, I don’t understand every-

| thine that you did. -

_ A. I am skipping somethin

Mr. Gariepy: Just follow i Master ’s questions—and

‘just answer him in chronological order as he

935 puts it to you.”

The Master: Q. After you took out the piece of

board from the-contaminated liquid, you went ahead after

that and wre up the piece of board and put the torn aon

in-a sterile water, is that right? .

= perieny * Say “Yes”, if that is a.

The Master: Q. If contamination was in this liquid ~

into which you bo a these pieces of board, that contam-

ination would be on the pieces of board after you

a = it — of the contaminated water, wouldn’t it?

Q. Now, how long would that contamination. continue

to ode -p that piece of board, even after you —

ted it? |.

i I did not determine that.

Q. But it would take some time, wouldn’t it?

‘A. Yes. I didn’t do that, because I. immediately per-

. formed this test.

. Now, then, it is reasonable to say now that, having

dipped this piece of board into, contaminated fluid, the

contamination w be on the piece of board after the

piece of board ha n withdrawn?

A. Yes, sir.

936 Q. Now, you disintesated the board?

A. Yes.

Q. And you-tock part of the mixture of sit water —

be —— board and put it on the: plate?

A. Yes .

Q. Then you put ar oer on the plate, pu®in nour-—

ishment, put in bacteria that might be in that isintegrated

board?

A. . Yes, sir.

Q. Or on it?

A. Yes, sir. ,

Q. What is the significance of these various time ele-

ments you have mentioned?

ee t is one board. I took another board, treated

Testimony of Martin John Prucha. 639

it the same way and held it before I eee ‘it,-in

the room.. t

Q. Before you disintegrated it?

A. Yes, sir, “ a. shed eM

Mr. ve:

_-The-Master

- plates until after you had disintegrated it? .

A. No. I prepared a number of these strips, I tried

to determine this point, how long and how many bacteria

will survive on the paper after the paper is infected, in-

oculated and allowed-to-dry.—

I know, but let me ask you this question:

- 937 Immediately upon withdrawing the piece of board |

from the contaminated mixture, did you go ahead and

disintegrate the board or did you first permit the board

to had then disintegrate it? ~

Both. You see, this plate represents—

7 These are different experiments?

A. Yes. |

Q. In other words, you did not in all cases disintegrate

the piece of board immediately fate = it from

the contaminated mixture?

iece of board from the contaminated mixture and dis-

integrating it; in some*instances you withdrew the piece

of board from the contaminated mixture and you waited,

as 4 ey long?

minutes—one hour—two hours.

Q.. Before disintegrating it?

A. Yes, sir:

. And then, having disintegrated it, you would

938 put the disintegrated material on these plates?

. A. That is correct.

| 2. And then give nourishment?

That igs correct.

xo, To see if any of the bacteria were still-in existence?

A. That is correct..

> Bo Pe aia did not put anything on on these —

A. In this case I did, that one. ©

| Q. You did not do it in all cases tsianodiotely?

ra | z |

- But, at varying times! ;

A. Yes. ie

Q. You did that?

A.. Yes. —

Q. You waited some tinte between withdrawing the :

__they have it several

4: fication?

640 Sinimnten of Testimony Before Master.

Mr. Gariepy: Q. These plates representing the red

marks.on these places, represent what? ~ fey

A. The ae gaan bacteria. Each.mark | is theoretical. | te

Q. Each red mark?

A. Each of them is a bacteria colony, starting, theo-

retically speaking, from one germ. ei may I add some-

thing?

- * Q Yes.

A. This I know, one company that uses paper con- ©

tainers for food, the Pacers ten buy a supply so. that

Gaye bef they can use it, because

of this very thing—they foal when paper is—it purifies

. itself, if it is contaminated anywhere along the” road with

the bacteria that happened to drop on it, will die.

ee: Master: Q... Your point is that the ee.

939 does not give nourishment to bacteria? -

A. No. Drying kills bacteria. ee

Mr. Gariepy : Q@ The “ay of the — is self puri-’ -

-A. It has that teadeney. ;

_ The Master: Q. «The results of your pumas show

‘what, now?

' A. The results. of my experiments show that in 30

minutes 96 per cent of the bacteria had died,

Q. _ That is the one where the piece of paper was allowed

to dry for thirty minutes before you disintegrated it?

- A. Yes. Taken immediately, I figured there is no re-

duction as to disease; and in thirty minutes over 96 per

cent— -

The Master: Wait a minute. After thirty minutes over -

96 percent of bacteria,. did what? 2

A.- Died. | : ;

: Master: » But, you don’t say that. I cant guess

at it. |

. A. ' According to these counts, I did not find them.

2 bs minutes, then over 99 percent ane died?

.. oh oS

Q.\ And in two hours you found a little more had died?

A. Yes, sir.

940 Q. And in 9 hours it was all gone? -

..: A. Yes,..sir.

Q. You could not find any bacteria at all?

A Correct.

Testimony of Martin John ete: | on

Q. oS test to see whether_they were the same

_ bacteria agiwere in the contaminated mixture? —

—<S it Yes This is the criterion, this color. .

li right. .

A. Pam carey 2.dila’s enabe & Gear.

The Master: Go ahead.

Mr. Gariepy: Q. Is that the standard method, Doctor,

that you employ , that you used in order to detect the

preservation or the existence of bacteria in the board?

A. Yes. I don’t know of any better method. .

vies,’ ot Chemung, Iinoist Fielderest Dairies Milk

Planta mung, Illinois?

. Yes.

QQ Have you taken ‘samples of the fabricated con- |

tainers there and performed tests upon them we regard

to bacteria content?

A 208. °

- Q. Did you do that sani, Doctort

A. We did that last March.

Q. 19397 eH"

A. Yes, I think it was March.

941. Q. March? — ,

- A. Yes. -

Q. And you took it under ordinary normal working

conditions in the milk plant? i

A. The bottles were picked by a man in the — as +.

they came off. \

q At your direction?

A. . Yes, and sent to us, to our laboratory. |

Mr. Schaefer: Q. Were you there, Doctor? .

A. I was not there myself when these particular bottles

were taken. ee

se Gariepy: Q. You have been to the plant, have yout

. Yes,a number of times. .

Mr. frariepy: May I have this paper marked for iden-

tification as plaintiff’. ’s exhibit 47.

(Typewritten sheet referred to was thereupon marked

+ enein ‘‘Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 47 for identifica-

on.)

Q. What test did you perform on the sample of the

_ blank containers that you received from thie Fieldcrest

Dairies in March?

) ae - first — 200 containers were examined that

way.

| 642 | Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

MB did you examine them, give the Master the

aren used for 50 of them the United States Pub-

"*. “Health method. us

Q. ‘What condition were they in when you “received

them? - . |

A. They were passed through the machine and sealed.

Q. Sealed with paraffin?

A. oP ern and the opening was sealed, yes—except,

“the 3 Master: Q. There was. nathing i in them?-

) x Gariepy: Q What did you do after. you got them,

tor?

‘A. As soon as they came I pubdpited them to the bac-

_ teriological test to find out how man bacteria were in-

side, that I could recover from inside, by applying the

‘regular standard.methiods for bacteria examination.

What was that regular standard method for bac-

teria examination?

_. A. The regular standard method for bacteria deter-—

mination at the time was that we took 100 cubic centi-

meters of . water, opened the container— —

: The Master: You did a rinse test? TER ete

A. Did a rinse test, yes, I examined 50 containers”

that way. Then I had a little correspondence with

m8. Dr. Arnold, so he raised a question as to the methods —

| for counting bacteria, so I took another 50 and I

poured directly into it without rinsing and whirled it

around like this (indicating), and left it without opening

it, to incubate, and then I opened it and took the gelatin ~

out and tried to count the bacteria without diluting them ”

with water, and it was suggested—

The Master: Q. Instead of rinsing with water?

A. I didn’t rinse it.

2. oe. were really rinsing it with this nutrient?

. ee. > ;

The Master: Go ahead.. ;

Mr. Schaefer: To maka it clear to me, Sean how

long did you leave the nutrient broth in it?

A. a long did I Iéave the agar in it? -

A. Taree days

a. Thee it wean"t jest. stnse?.:

| Testimony of Martin John Prucha. | 643

. A. No. I was interested a little more’ than. mere con-

_ trol, I was interested in actua wh agg! and the rinse test

as applied, the standard meth¢

a short time. I incubated this a longer time. Then an-

they incubate the plates

other 50, it was suggested by some workers that; -—

: 944 instead of rinsing it with 100. cubic centimeters, to.

use only 20. oe

_Mr. Tarn + Mice Q. Sterile water?

A. 20 cubie centimeters of.sterile water, shake it and

then take 10 cubic centimeters out and make three plates

out of that 10 cubic.centimeters, reduce the rinse. 50 were

examined that way. Then I applied the method that is . |

recommended in the new standard ordinance for examin-~

ing bottles, and that is using only 10 cubic centimeters and

rinsing it, and in some cases I made ptates, I used 5 cubic. -

centimeters instead of 2 cubic centimeters, the standard

method. I figured that brings out a little more the number

of bacteria in there.

Q. Does plaintiff’s exhibit 47 here show the result of

your findings? ‘

A. Yes, they are grouped together. I have another

table, if anybody wants it, where I separated the methods.

_ Q. This was in March, 19391

A. I think so, somewhere in March. I don’t know what

date. I would have to look up my notes. ~

- Q. The first column is the number of containers?

.. Yes, sir. —

Q. . The second column is the number of bacteria found?

A. Total number of bacteria found in the whole con-.

tainer.

945 Q. Those are clear. I don ’t think it needs further

elaboration.

A. All right.

Q. Have you had occasion -to perform bacterial tests

with regard to washed and sterilized bottles in. the milk

es —* in the City of Chicago? ;

644 - Transcript of Testimeny Before Master.

A. Glass bottles.

Mr. Schaefer: Q. That sheet, Doctor, represents the .

results—plaintiff’s exhibit 47—represents the results of

the rinse tests conducted by you?

- fae

- Mr. Gariepy: Q. Yes, 47. pee a

A. Represents the po of the examination of the

Pure-Pak Containers from Fieldcrest Dairies.

Q. Is it a rinse test, or what test?

A. It is a combination of the four tests, fifty exam-

-“tned by each of the four tests I described.

946 The Master: Q. You only described two that I

remember. One was rinse test and the other one was

‘by disintegration. |.

A. In one case I used 100-c. C., in one case I used 20

-°¢. ¢ and in one case 10 c. ¢., reducing the amount. Here

~ the > ag Mr. Schaefer, Showing the. different tests

rately. °

e Master: . Let’s not confuse things here. Introduce

what you want and make g clear record.

Mr. Gariepy: -I will have this: paper marked as plain-

tiff’s exhibit 47-A.

(Typewritten sheet referred to was thereupon marked

by the Reporter ‘‘Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 47-A: for iden-

. tification.’’)

. Plaintiff's exhibit 47-A is an exhibit showing what

with regard to the _type of test, Doctor?

A. 47-A is a rinse test with 100 cubic centimeters, 50

containers. |

Q. The first column? . ,

A. . Each container was rinsed with 10 cubic centimeters

and all recovered water ‘vas plated. ©

_ Q. What:does it next show?

. A. The next 50 were rinsed with 10 cubic centimeters,

and plated. act

| Q. The next column?

A. No rinse, and the nutrient gelatin was poured

- 946a in directly.

- =e Do. those correctly show the results. of these |

three tests?

‘A. I think so.” They check pretty well. If I may cor-

—" m testimeny, please. -

. Yes.

Testimony of. Martin John Prucha. — 645

A. In the third test we poured all instead of half of it

We poured all 10 cubic centimeters. ;

Q. wo all of the 10 cubic centimeters?

A. Yes. }

Q. You say ‘‘c. c.’’ That says ‘‘m. - Is spaedins

same thing?

A. “M. 1, yes.

Q. Do you know the methods employed.at the. Field-

_erest Dairy with regard to the use of machine, in order

to prevent contamination after running and filling of nlk,

Doctor?

-. A. Yes.°

947 Q. What are those methods?

A. The machine is, of course, operated under in-

spection. It is washed and sterilized.

sect How is it: washed and how is it sterilized? Tell the

A. - When they get through the. bottling, they take the -

e apart, principally the main point to take apart.

is the filling compartment. -

Q. Showing you planitiff’s exhibit 15-A, received in

‘evidence, show the.Master which parts are taken apart

and sterilized and gga :

A. All parts that milk: comes in eontact with are

‘washed. } ie

Q. What is that? ‘Describe that.

A. It is a reservoir about that big (indicating), it holds ©

about thirty or forty—

The Master: Q. You are referring to the cylindrical

object? —

A. Milk is dropped and comes in contact ‘with the

ogg here and i is dropped in this. eylinder here (indicat-

- in

"o “Here”? don’t mean anything. Sas

‘s) ‘This reservoir.

ry It is the cylinder® right beneath the iastaill arrow

from the left on plaintiff’s exhibit 15-A?

948 > Yes, sir.

All ight.

A. hen, over here the milk is measured ; thheesare two

measuring compartments or devices which measures a pint

_ Of milk and the bottle comes under here (indicating).

ad No, don’t say the word ‘‘here.’”” The bottle comes

er the cylinder? =S—«y

os)

| 646. Transoript of Testimony Before Master.

A. Under the first one.

Q. Comes under the cylinder?

A. The bottle comes under the cylinder and a int of

. amilk is dropped in it and then. is pushed about four or

- five inches further and .another. measuring device drops —

a pint of milk in it, making a full quart; then it goes from

here (indicating), it is sealed, dated’ and goes out. |

Q. At ~ +28 end of the machine?

A. Yes, SR.

Q.! On this exhibit? ES { |

A. Yes. Now, in cleaning the cylinder or measuri

. device, anything that is- removable is ‘taken apart a

washed in the usual way.

Q. What is the usual way?

_A. The usual way is, first it is rinsed thoroughly with -

water.

949 Q. What kind. of water?

A. Regular drinkin water.

Q. Then what next is done after that?

‘A.. Then it is taken apart and washed in a‘ soap or

_alkali washing solution. ‘Then. it is ome again and

* then— *

2. Rinsed with what?

A. Water. .

Q. Drinking water? :

A. - Yes, with drinking water. Then it is s sterilized with

‘chlorine solution. ~~

Mr. Gariepy: Q. At. what temperature?

A.’ Room temperature. We use warm water and, warm

soapy solution to wash it.

Q. Is that done after each running = operation of:

the machine, they call it, each washing? —

A. It is done at the end when + sage - through bottling

of the ‘supply of milk, it is taken apart. and cleaned. .

_ . The Master: Q. ‘According to the direction, is that

~~ more than once a day, or once a week?

It is done at the end of each day or at ae end of

. 3 ee

Yes. Sometimes in some plants they bottle cream

950. The Master: That is all right.

‘Mr. mora Q. What do they do besides remov-.

ing these remova le parts and washing a What other

| ‘Testimony of Martin John Prucha. 647

_ things do they do with the machine to prevent contamina-

; MA. They open up the cooling anit, the id opens wp,

andit is “rinsed.

Q. "With what?

A. With drinking water, all through, it is rinsed up

to this _ (indicating).

The Master: Q. ‘What point is that? Mention it.

Mr. Gariepy: Q. Describe what that point is?

A. Up to the araffining compartment.

The - Master: cs That is the portion of the matene

at ae. hand end? -

Right near this clock or deyice? .

Yes, sir.

Or this tower on this machine?»

Yes, it is the cooling unit.

All right. -

We rinse it with running water.

What are we rinsing now, the cooling want

Yes, ey here. —

All ri :

And the ail does not come in here, they rinse it

‘and me Trans it is rinsed and cleaned they take a bucket

951 of chlorine solution and apply it all over the surface

and sterilize it. —

»_Q. Why do they have to sterilize the cooling unit?

What is that for? ts

A, <The cooling unit, the containers come out of the

re compartment and they travel along’ here (in-

ica 4

Q. ey travel to the left?

. A. Yes,

Q. All right. :

A. Through the cooling compartment, and the cooling

_ compartment is used to cool the container .so that the

i pode POPOPore

_ paraffin sets and hardens and there is a fan there’ inside.

* to blow the cold air so that it aids in cooling.

a war the cooling. unit?

Q. The air, or what—or is it ice?

A. It is not ice. I think they had better ¢ell you exactly.

Mr. Rall: Refrigeration coils. ;

A.- Yes, sir, refrigeration coils,

648. Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

' The Master: Q. What do they clean, ‘a portion of the

pA unit through which the paraffin container travels?

A. — clean .the whole e clean everything in-

side. -

92 Q. I see.

| A. The idea is this, the containers a they leave

"’ = are open and the air surrounds it:

» Q. Yes.° -

A. And that eompartnent ought to be sterilized.

The Master: Go ahead. °

Mr. Gariepy: Q. This cooling chamber you are talking

about is cleaned out only by the use of: ordinary drinking

water? — ,

. A. Drinking .water and ‘chlorine solution after they |

Yinse it out.

Q. You said it is ; sterilized?

A. I used a commercial expression. .—

Q. Do you use that chlorine solution to sterilize that

cooling chamber?

~ A. Commercially speaking, yes.

Q. All right. |

A. The surfaces inside.

The effect of this cleaning operation ‘is re remove

whatever air there has been in there, and after the cleaning

solution is out, new air comes in?

A. Yes. *

Q And you have no way of knowing what that new:

air contains, do you?

A. Well, we carry on some tests on that point. I have

‘a table.

‘953 Q. Of what the new air contains?

A. During the whole operation, how many bes:

teria there ar* in the air and how many will fall down.

We made tests on. that.

Have you performed ette with regard to the bac-

teria count on the Pure-Pak container after it has been

: ‘Seoneh ong se bath? .

hoa before it is filled with milk? ie

A. Yes, sir. re it is

?¢ And before it enters into the cooling chamber? —

Yes. :

©>

And when did you perform those teste?

One of the exhibits gives it.

Testimony of Martin John Prucha. 649. =

Q. Do you know the date?

A. Over a period of almost two years, now and . then.

The Master: Q. What year? ;

A. The last two years.

Q. 1938 and 19391

A.: Yes, sir, two and a half years.

. Mr. Gariepy: I wiil ask that this paper be marked as

| Pivtype ’s exhibit 49 for identification.

- -(Typewritten sheet referred to was thereupon marked

by the Reporter ‘‘Plaintiff’s Exhibit - 49 for identifica-

tion. 9)

954 Q. Referring to .this document marked plaintiff's -

exhibit 49 for identification, is this table the result

an these tests you have performed? |

A. Yes, sir. -

I show you plamtiff ’s exhibit 49 for identification. ©

Does that show the result of these tests, Doctor?

A. That is these two tables, yes.

Q. On that sheet?

A. Yes.

Mr. Schaefer: Q ‘his all of the tests:over the last

‘two and a half years there?

This was done during the. year 1937.

Exhibit number 491 ;

Mostly. —~

Are the result of the 1937 tests?

Yes, sir.

What do those tests. show?

he Master: Q. Where were these cobnilnntedt

A. At our place at the University, when we had the

machine there. .

Mr. Gariepy: Q. That i is the same machine that Field-

crest Dairies are using at Chemung, Illinois?

A. Yes, sir, the same machine. .

The Master: . Q. Where did you get these con-

tainers?. .

fear: 7) We paraffined them ourselves, I picked them

myse Aico

QQ. Why does this say‘ bacterial * * * contents of 132 -

Pure-Pak ned containers from eleven different milk

plants?”’ What do you mean by that? -

A. I mean the first table sien: that is. paraffin is not on

them, that is containers — — they are par-

PHepepers |

650 - Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

affined are went! in from eleven‘ different milk Plants alll over

the country. .

And ° you paraffined those yourself? ao

~~ Yes, sir. ;

And did the experiments on your own ‘machine?

Yes, sir, and these were the containers.

‘‘These’’ don’t inean anything.’

-Tabie 9:

Containers at the bottom half of this exhibit, table 9,

what are those? /

A. Those were the containers we were using at the

time, without milk; these we were using on this machine

to bottle our own milk, the University milk, and in connec-

tion with it I took: samples of the empty containers every

day, here to there. | x

- The Master: All right; go ahead.

Mr. Gariepy: Q. You plated these tests and these re-

sults shown on the atk, Plaintiff’s Exhibit 49 at the

956 top. and the bottom, representing what - "you ascer-

| tained? |

A. Yes, I did the work myself. .

. Did you make a study of the bacteriological condi-

tion of the paraffin bath i in this Pure-Pak machine. -

A. Yes, sir.

_ Q. Where was the machine when. you made that study:

and from what paraffin was it, at the Chemung Plant or at

the University of Illinois?

A. That was et the Chemung Plant.

Q. When did you make that study?

A. This spring, in 1939—I forget "the date. |

Mr. Gariepy: I will ask that these two sheets be. marked

Plaintiff’s Exhibit 50 for identification.

(Two typewritten ‘sheets referred to were thereupon

period the Reporter ‘‘Plaintiff’s Exhibit 50 for identifi-

cation.’

Q. I show you Plaintiff’s Exhibit 50 for identification.

Have you seen that before?

A. Yes, that is my table.

Q. All right, y toy this table represent your study of the

bacteriological condition of the paraffin bath with the Pure-

Pak Machine?.

- +A. I took the samples myself. |

§ At the University of Illinois?

957 Q. Wasn’t that in March of 1939, about the 24th?

eae sect sir, *

‘Rererens,

Testimony of Martin John Pruche, «61

0 3 niin )

Q. About the 24th?

A. Yes, sir. ;

Q. What does this show with regard to the ne

_ ical condition of: the paraffin bath?

A. It shows the paraffin was sterile, I couldn’t find any -

bacteria in the paraffin bath.

. Was that taken under usual working conditions of

the plant? / ,

#&. Yes,’ this was taken darter the operation of the

machine while the milk was.being bottled and the. time all

‘samples were taken right here (indicating).

Q. Shown i in table number 1?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. .Your remarks as result of each sample is shown o on

the right hand side, under ‘‘Remarks’’ at the start for

whipping cream, and so on, down to the end—bottle

finished? . :

A. Yes. ;

Q. prota ou mile a study of the hesteciochdial prop-

erty of par ing

A. I have.

Q. When did you do that?

A. I have been carrying, on a study for two and a

958 half years on that subject.

Was that at the University of Illinois, too?

A. At the University of Illinois.

- . Q. When did you last perform any tests to ascertain

bacteriacidal property of paraffining?

A. During the last month. 7

Mr. Gasien py: I will ask that this paper ‘i marked

Plaintiff’s Exhibit 51 for identification..

(Typewritten sheet referred to was thereepon marked by

= ele “‘Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 51 for identifica-

ion |

~ Q. I show you Plaintiff’s Exhibit 51. Does that rep-

resent the result of your study and experiments and ‘re-

— Bo the bacteriacidal ‘property of paraffining?

. Yes.

Q. Did you tell in the record when it was done?- -

A. It was done the last two weeks of last month, Au-

gust, 1939.

Q: Explain to the Master what Plainti Dxhibit 51

shows, concerning that bacteriacidal effect?

A, The peste was sera experiment in which

652. Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

strips of paper board were inoculated again by being

dipped in bacteria suspension; then they were paraffined

! in the laboratory and then after paraffining they were

959 again disintegrated in the same way and the number of

bacteria was determined that remained on the paper

under: the. paraffin and im the body of the paper, on the

whole strip of paper.

Q. How did you ascertain the number of bacteria!

What did you do?

A. We took a strip and disintegrated it, reducing it to

pulp, in water and then we plated the plaque from the pulp

and water, making tén plates from that. strip of paper,

using two cubic centimeters of the mixture in each “i

_ that is of tae pulp and water,,. disintegrated pulp; the p

was taken up in the pulp in 200 cubic, centimeters of oe

3 Key numbers under plaques, ~ have ‘‘W-N-P.”’

.° 2e8,

Q. . What do you mean?

A. ‘*W”’’ means that the plaque was paraffined while -,

wet.

Mee ee number 2° * * in the left hand columsit -

A. ‘‘W’’ means the plaques were wet when they were

disintegrated or paraffined, and ‘‘N’’ means when the

plaque was not paraffined, and rej means plaque ‘par-

affined.

Q. You followed this abbreviation of _ numbers you »

havé here? a

960 <A. Yes, sir.

Q. In describing each one of these tests and the ;

“ee as you put it-to the test?

| Yes, sir..

- What does your experiment as shown on the tables

-under tests 1, 2 and 3 in Exhibit 51 show with regard to the

bacteriacidal property of paraffining?

._ A. It shows that if you paraffin inoculated paper at 170

degrees F’. for 15 seconds, and the artificial contamination

of oad is very heavy, few of the bacteria will survive ‘par-

; Q. lain what ycu mean by ‘artificial coutensination. 3

' of the paper?’’ .

-A. Artificial contamination. of the paper was done by

taking a strip of paper and dipping it in bacteria suspen-

sion having many millions of bacteria per cubic centimeter

of the suspension.

: Testimony of. Martin. John Prucha. . -

y fy tr 7s

And when aid you do that?

A. That experiment was done in the . summer of

1937.

961 Mr. Gariepy: I will ask that this sheet be ‘ianell

- _ Plaintiff’s Exhibit 52 for identification.

eee written sheet referred to was thereupon marked by

the Reporter “Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 52 for fdentifica:

tion.’’)

Q. Fshow you Plaintiff’s Exhibit 52 for identification.

Does that represent the result of your experiments on that?

A. Yes.

Q. Where were those tests conducted?

. A. Those tests were conducted in our own milk plant at

the University of Illinois.

Q. Was that’ under ordinary working conditions ?

A. This was a special experiment in that we used milk

_ which was almost sterile; otherwise, everything was done

*o in ordinary handling of milk. — .

- Why did P is use milk that was practically sterile?

t We found in paraffining tests that the number of

bacteria contributed by the machine to the geneyal milk .

was so small that we had culty to dete it by -

examining the regular milk, th8refore I decided to use milk

_ which had only very few bacteria.

‘Q. How much contamination did this test show came

‘from the Pure-Pak Machine?

962 A. Occasionally bacteria got in in the milk.

- Q. How much, in the number of tests that you ran,

how much: bacteria did you find that the machine con-

tributed to? —

A. The first milk poured in the reservoir, bottlin reser- |

voir of the machine, had 33 bacteria, roughly. The first

bottle filled had about 40. One bottle filled had about 6. .

And from that time to the rest of the bottling, it varied

from 6 to 20, total number of bacteria in the mi

Q. It varied from what? !

A. From about 5 bacteria to 20.

Q. And how much had _ the machine contvibated to

= that increase?

A. Well, the milk had, Twould say, about 5 to 10 bac-

€

_ 654 "Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

. teria per cubic centimeter to start with, and’the difference te

- between that and the counts in the milk indicates the num-

ber of bacteria that were picked up by the milk —— | |

— :

What machine did you do this with? |

z We had a Pure-Pak Machine, the same inaahine that §

finally was bought by Dean Milk Company. .

Q. .At-the p intiff s — at Chemung, Illinois, Field--

_crest Dairies?’ : .

A. Yes, sir. Up

963 Q. That is the same machine? —

. A. Yes.

'- The Master: Q. Where did you conduct the experiments ne

on the machine?

A. These experiments were conducted on the machine

at the University of Illinois.

Q.. That e was moved bodily to the Dean Milk

Plant?

A. Yes. ;

Q. Was that machine a new one at the time you con-

re ducted the experiments?

A. Yes. We used it, I should say, about two thonths,

: Q. To whom did it belong during the time that you

were conducting experiments? a

A. To the Pure-Pak people: :

. They moved it from the University of Illinois to the

Dean Milk Plant at Chemung? |

A. That is my understanding. ‘They took it out.

Q. You have answered it...

A. Yes. .

The Master: Go ahead.

Mr. Gariepy: Q. Does this amount of contamination pre-

sent a health problem, Doctor, dees a milk sanitarian’s

point of view? -

A. It does not. : ,

Q. Have you any opinion as to whether or not the fact

that the machine on which these tests were run was a

964 new machine would cause the resnlt to be any different

than if the machine had been a machine : iat was a

year old?’

A. I have.to give my opinion.

Q. What is your opinion?

rw My opinion is that it ‘would, — no o difference.

And, why?

| Testimony of Martin John Prucha. 655

A. if they used the same method of cleaning and steriliz-

? ing and handling, it would make no difference.

0. In other words, you would not expect any greater

amount of contamination from an old machine than you

would from this ‘machine, if ‘the. same methods of steriliza-

tion are employed after each filling?

A. No. :

Q. Have you made any. similar tests with regard to

contaminatjon in the matter of the machinery and equip-

ment ased in filling glass milk bottles?

A. Yes.

Q.. When and where?

A. I have been making tests right sity in our plant

_ and in other milk plants.

Q. When did you do that, Doctor?

A. The last thirty years, every now and sien:

Q. When is the last time?

A. We.did last month, I think we were working on some

problems in our own milk plant.

965 Q. Last month? : e

A. Yes. .

am You were #orking on some ‘problems i in your own

plant? |

A. Yes, sir.

Q.° From that experience was the degree of contamina-

: tion that you found in the examination of the Pure-Pak.

Machine higher or lower than what you found in examina-

tion of the equipment used in filling of the glass bottles?

A. I would say, this, that there would be a tendency

for the filling machine, for glass bottle filling, to have more .

contamination. .

Mr. Schaefer: I move to strike that-as not responsive to

the question.

: The Master: Read the question back.

(Question read by the Reporter.)

The Master: I will let it stand. .

Mr. Gariepy: Q. Have you performed any tests with

_ regard to the number of bacteria enmeshed in the paper

caps used in the filled glass bottles?

A. Yes.

Q.° When did you perform those tests?

my That particular test was performed in March of

Q. Where was it performed? : fat

656) z Transcript of Fostlinsin Before Master.

- 3966 AL. At the Universi of Illinois. |

Where did you obtain the caps from?

A he caps were sent to us.

Q. By whom? : :

A. By Mr. Jr. 3 Qo.

Q. .Caps from what dairies were they?

A. One I recall was Bowman’s. There were caps not

only from Chicago but from other districts.

Q. Take Chicago, only; let’s stay. with Chicago.

A. I recall there were some caps from Bowman’s; there

were some caps from Wincel Dairy.

A incel. niga

Q. ._Do you remember any other i names of the dairies?

A. No, I don’t recall now.

Q. Were they the standard = used in the City of

—- today ?

Yes.. :

- Mr. Garie I will - ‘that this paper be marked

Plaintiff's ’ ibit 53 for identification.

(Typewritten sheet referred to was thereupon marked by

the ee eS r ‘‘Plaintiff’s Exhibjt 53 for identification:’’)

show you Plaintiff’s Exhibit 53 for identification,

¥ ith regard to the figures in the first

968 . The Master: Q. Were those caps which had been

used?

A. No. See eae bad

Q. Th ere just blank caps?

A. Blank caps that had not been used for anything.

_ Mr. Gariepy: Q. Were they paraffined or unparaffined?

Q. Partly?

A. They received some treatment, paraffining treat.

ment.

Q. Tiere ‘was & greasy feeling on the outside, that

eh prey, oily feeling, is that itt

es, sir.

The Master: Q. On both sidest A

Mr. Gariepy: Q. The under-side and the top-side?

A. I think so. I am not one hundred percent sure. I

think they were just dippéd in paraffin.

Q. Have you performed research work and tests to as-

certain the bacteriological condition of paper milk con- —

tainers, Pure-Pak eicapearaeting dafore being paraffined?

Testimony of Martin John Prucha. - 657

AL Yes, ‘ir. :

Q. When did you ie that?

A. was done in the spring of 1937.

969 Q. ere was it done?

A. It was done at the University of Illinois. - —

- Q. On this Pure-Pak Machine that you had down there

then?

A. Yes. ‘

_ Q. How did you perform those tests and where on you

get the paper from?

per was the same container paper, or the

dae that we used, that were supplied to us and we .

- uséd for milk.

Q. In running the dairy, at the University?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were these paraffined or. unparaffined? :

A. These containers were taken and passed through the

machine, to the paraffining well. They were not paraffined. .

Q. What do your tests show with regard to the bacterial

contents of those containers, unparaffined?

A. We examined 128 of those containers and we found

hat 121 of them had a small number of bacteria, a smaller

number of bacteria than the standard for glass bottles.

Q. What is the standard for glass bottles?

A. The standard for the quart glass. bottles is 1000 bac-

teria in the bottle.

- 970 Q. How much less did these have than the stand-

| ard in the glass?

A. In 25 of them We recovered no bacteria.

_ Mr. Schaefer: Q. Was-that a rinse test, Doctor?

A. - That was standard method rinse test. We found no |

bacteria in 25. In 25 we found no bacteria. In another 25

we found’ one colony on one of the plates, which would be

50 bacteria according to the calculations. I don t think it is

necessary to go through it.

- Mr. Schaefer: I wish you would go through it.

Mr. Swe a Take 75.

Mr. Schae

that a be satisfactory to me, at the end of the higher

coun '

The Witness: The last column I will take. —

The Master: Let’s get some place.

_ The Witness: 5 containers had more bacteria than the

Ph Bir and the rest of them had less. — :

Mr. bs sail Q. Out of now many?

Read thé next 25 back, fromthe bottom,

658 ‘Transcript of Testimony Before Master. .

o » Out of 128.

Mr: Gariepy: I will wre that this sheet be marked sian

tiff’s exhibit 54 for identification.

' _(Typewritten sheet referred to was marked by the Re-

' porter ‘*Plaintiff’s Exhibit’54 for identification.”?)

971 Q. That is referring to plaintiff ’s exhibit 54 for

identification, that the reporter is marking now?

0. a sir. sais i

_- Q. Have you performed any reseg work concerning

—a used i in sealing the containers?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Bacterial condition of the. adhesive used in a wins

of the containers? — :

Yes, sir. 0 °°

When was that?

Last spring—1939.

Where? _

At. the University of Mlinois, ;

wa ig on the Pure-Pak Container? v

Was that under normal working conditions

These samples?

® ust answer the question, was that ‘under normal

king conditions at your dairy down. there? .

he adhesive. —

Will you just answer the question, was it under

normal or abornma! working conditions? Was it.some cons

cocted straw man that you set up to test this adhesive,

\ or was it taken in the natural conditions used i in the

972 Pure-Pak Containers every day? :

' A. The samples were from the adhesive used for

commercial sealing.

Q. From whom did you obtain them?

A. They were’sent to us from the factories.

Q. What factories were they sent from?

A. I don’t recall, now.

The Master: Q Who ‘sent it to iva

A: Atmy request... :

- Q. But, who sent:it to you? wale

- A. The factories that make the adhesive. :

_. Mr. Gariepy: Q. Is it the Arabol Company, in Cicero?

- A. I don’t remember.

Q. You refresh your memory after —_— because I want

- to know that, Doctor. |

A. : Yes.

orjorererercr

-in the Pure-Pak

Testimony of Martin John Prucha.. 659

Q. There ha been some question raised about ad-

- hesives here, I want to clear it up.

Yes.

. After your inspection and acquaintance and use of

the Pure-Pak Machine, have you an opinion as to whether

or not there is an occasion or an opportunity for the Pure-

.Pak Container to become infected after it leaves the

973 paraffin bath and goes through the filling chamber?

A. My opinion is that it is an exceptionally well

- protected machine, protecting the unfilled containers before

x are filled.

Have you an opinion as to whether or not this Pure

Pak Container or Containers may be contaminated on the

inside by the handling of the store clerk or the milk man ~

_ as they deliver them!

A. Yes.

Q. What is your opinion?

A. My opinion is that containers can not be contam-

inated that way, that the milk.can not be. contaminated |

“o wa

_ you an opinion as to whether or not there is

an eaoniniy for absorption of milk in the case of Gisss

bottles with the paper cap?

A. The paper cap absorbs some milk.

Q. Have you performed tests on that?

A. Not myself—it is not bacteriologically.

Q. Have you performed tests with regard to absorption

Dentainerst

A. Not myself.

Q. You did not do.that?

A. Professor Tracy did some of that.

974 Q. Have you an opinion as to whether or.not there

_ is a health hazard existing in the matter of the use of

of Chicas caps as now. being employed and-used in The City

“et ty :

ry at this.time? a:

A. I think there is not.

Q. There is. no bealth hazard?

* A. I don’t

‘Q. How many ee of tine have” you devoted to this

_ research work with regard to. these Pure-Pak Containers,

Doetor?

A. ‘We carried on the work now on this whole subject

for two years and eight months. The Pure-Pak Containers

66d - + Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

took pretty nearly half of the time devoted to this study”

= I would say I spent close to half oi my time-during that

ie.

ya - there a standard method of milk analysis?

. Yes

-Q. - Did you = that standard method i in this research

work that you have described?

A. Where everI gol try to improve it.

Q. Do Ak u consider the counts that you have obtained

in using this standard milk analysis method with regard

to ascertaining the sanitary aspects of the Pure-Pak

975 Container—are those results high or r low, with regard |

Pies ——— count?

Mr. Schacter * Stl me. You are talking about the

at ak count of milk, are sneak not?

. No.

Q. What? e

A. Containers.-

Q.. I understood the question to tefer to standard meth-

ods in milk analysis. ,

Mr. Gariepy: I asked hint if there was such a method of’

— milk and examining the bacteria and the board,

< bot

The Master: Read the question..: Ny

(Question read by the Reporter) \

Mr. Gariepy: .Q. You use the paper bottle in your

. own home? |

- 2a oo

Q. Do you use the glass bottle?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you found any objection from a practical stand-

a + a regard to the use of the ‘paper bottle? .

. Are you familiar with the United States Public

Health Standard Milk Ordinance?

976 A. Yes. |

9. How long have you been so familiar?

A ver since it has been put out.

Q. What, in your ed are the main objectives trem .

health and sanitary P posse int of all of these milk ordi-.

' “‘nances and rules an tions?

A. Th ‘oal is to daliver to the consumer milk of high

quality, milk and milk producte—and — quality means

Testimony of Marti John Prucha. 661

clean, low-bacteria counts and freedom from disease bac-

teria.

_.. Q. When is a milk container considered by. ‘milk san-

itarians to bé sanitary? .

A. When it meets the standard prescribed.

. Which is what? . |

A. It varies in the United States Public Health Milk

Ordinance, the standard is one bacteria per millimeter .

capaci

"g. Tow ~uch per quart?

1000.

a Have you an opinion as to whether or not that. ts

7 these Pure- ak containers, are sanitary?

es.

After your two years of study — recagres: work?

Yes, sir. '

Q. What is your opinion? .

977° A. My opinion, based on the various studies I made,

is that there is an improvement in the sanitary condi- ;

’ , tion of the milk container, over the glass.

, The Master: That is not the — Read the ques-

ion.

( Question read by Reporter)

Q. Is it sanitary, or what?

A. Ttis sanita

Mr. Gariepy 6. Describe the merits of the glass milk

bottle as it is ‘eae used. i in the City of Chicago from

a sanitary standpoint?

A. The glass milk bottle, when introduced into the dairy

industry, has been a great improvement over the milk in

bulk. I think it is sanitary, if the procedures to take care

of it are.carried out,.as recommended.

- . Q. Describe"the merits of this Pure-Pak Container from

the same point of view? - rn

. The Pure-Pak Container is sanitary. A large ae :

centage of them are, according to the standard tests, free

from bacteria. Only once in awhile we find onejust before

‘filled with milk that it will not meet the stardard require-

ment as to the number of bacteria. In most cases the num-

ber 6f bacteria in the container—in the paraffined empty

container—is extremely small. Shall I go into thie

978 further?

rt Go ahead, finish your answer.. |

A. As far as I am able to study and _— out, it has a

2. eT Sea pa ee ee, FO ee om Or. ee Le ees

662 elaiesibate Hd Testimony Before Master.

thoroughly uring lip, which is one of the points

in a mii’. eataee t t has been stressed.

> Have you performed. tests with regard to the pouring

lip, Doctor?

= Yes, sir. .

_Q. From which you have drawn and adopted this con-

clusion?

A. Yes,sir. .°

Q. -How long have you performed tests to determine

the sanitary aspects of the pouring lip?

A. We performed a number of these tests. The last one

we performed this spring. . er

1939 - daaing

Yes, in the spring of 1939.

. Was that at the University?

A. At the University.

-On the Pure-Pak Container, the same coritainer that

the Master has in his hand here now?

A. Yes, sir. These containers were filled with: milk,

sealed. and sent to us. When they arrived, we then per-

formed the. — to determine the Se of the

“

me ) an sent them to yout

“3 z Fieldcrest Dairies, ‘at our request.

The Master: Q. What is this blue that is right inside

“s this, — lip and on the angles on the inside of that?

is a sample, to show an answer to problem

ante two that Pr. Arnold: suggested to carry out, and

this is what ha ns when the container is treated with

To determine to t extent penetration of the ie

go into the body of the paper, or, I suppose, the‘thor-

"a of paraffining.

. Did you perform the same tests with this blue and .

dye with regard to ice-cream containers and paper |

= Waet oe Sa ve ose of that?

will

Mr: Gariepy: Q. I show you here a small one-quarter

pint University of Illinois Department of Dairy Hus-

| Testimony of Martin John Prucha. 663,

bandry Container. Do you use that to sell ice-cream

980 in? “. ?

A. Yes, sir. . ease

-Q. Did you apply the same ‘tests on this small container

that you did on the large rt Dean’ s Milk Pure-Pak

Container?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. “What does it sie with sled i t6 the application of |

the blue on the inside?

. A. The treatment of paraffining, if any was very scant.

other words, the whole surface absorbed the methlyn

ue. .

The Master: Q. .O7 the ice-cream container?

A. Of the ice-cream container.

Mr. Gariepy: Q. What about these. caps I show you,

were they submitted to the same tests with regard to this

blue that you tried on the Pure-Pak Container?

_ <A. Yes, sir.

.. Q. What does it show with’ regard to the parafining

process applied in those? -

A. They show that the methlyn blue is absorbed also

in these containers—in these discs, rather.

The Master:. Q. ;,Did Dr. Arnold ask you to do that?

Mr. Gariepy: Q. Did Dr. Arnold ask you to do that?.

Answer the question. ;

A. Not this one, no.

981 Q. He just asked you to try it on the other one?

A. Just on the container for milk.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Schaefer: Q. Dr. Arnold did not ask you to do any

of those. Those were all covered the stipulation,

Doctor, and we agreed to take your word on it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And this was not at Dr. Arnold "s request at all?

A. .No, sir.

Mr. Schaefer: Just to keep the record straight.

Mr. Gariepy: Q. These were done as a result of that

—— with Dr. Arnold, concerning such procedures?

. ‘Yes, sir.

Q. In the case of the Dean Milk Containers the methlyn :

* blue tag a into the container?

The Master: Q. The markings left after the methlyn

blue was poured out are — on the er

A. Yes. er a:

664 Transcript. of Testimony Before Master.

" 2 Or on the folds, you might say?

A. Yes. ,

Q. And the methlyn blue left no appreciable stain on the

walls or the inner walls of the container? . : ,

982 A. No. Th&t is-right.

| Q. None of the un seems to have come through the

container? ;

A. No. ;

Q. While in the case of the ice-cream carton, ice-cream

container, the blue stuck, to the whole inner wall of the

°. eontainer? .

A.. It shows the covering here is not as thorough. _ |

Mr. Gariepy: Q. What about the drinking cup? This

is a little Dixie drinking cup.

A. The problem is the same.

Q. Is that a paraffined cup; too? Feel of it.

’ A. -It has some paraffin treatment, yes, siri

bine! Did = fill this UP, iby the way, half full with the

A. I think we filled it tip. :

The Master: Q: The blue on that SY to have pen-

etrated at the lower half of that paper drinking cup,

doesn’t | ae |

. A. Yes, sir.

Mr. Gariepy: Mark these in - aeblé plaintiff’s

hibit 55 for identification.

(Two typewritten sheets referred to were thereupon

marked by the Reporter ‘‘Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 55 for

identification. ’’)

983 Q. Have you performed some research work con- «

cerning bacterial contamination of railk on the pouring

lips of glass bottles, Doctor?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did you do that?

«4 This particular experiment was ins in July of

‘- Q. Where was it done? :

A. . It was done af the University of Illinois.

Did you Tesort to artificial means with regard to -

contamination, in performing this test?

A. Yes, sir.

. What were those means that you used?

-A. We prepazed bacterial suspersion again, put it in

an atomizer and sprayed the bottle, the bottle was filled

a LENTIL SLT EL BEER NNE

Pecnins of Martin John Prucha. ues 665

with milk before this -~ a cap put on and then we spray

the bottle.

Q. Cohtinue, Doctor.

A. We also infected with infectious , solution opened, in

spray bottles, then we posred the milk out and tried to

_ determine whether any bacteria were present in the milk

_ after it was poured out.

._ Q. What did that test show, ‘Dectes, concerning the

number of bacteria present?

A. The test showed that wheif bottles were opened

984 with contaminated hands, some of the pourings from

the bottle had the germs in, when the pouring lip, the

outside rim of the bottle was contaminated. .

| Q. That is the glass?

\A. Yes.

Q. Proceed, Doctor?

‘A. Then we found in all cases presence of the germs

that were put on the rim, when we contaminated the —

of the rim, above the paper disc, then, of course, Gy

found bacteria present. Then we also took two bottles,

one of them: with the ordinary cap and one of them with

_the certified dairy hood in addition on, and submerged

_ them for twenty-four hours in a bucket of water, contain-

ing the bacteria, and then took them out and rinsed them —

_ off and sterilized them on the outside and we found that

some of the*bacteria from the suspension seeped in in the

Did you perform tests concerning the sanitary as-

pects phn the pouring lip on the Pure-Pak ‘Container? |

When?

A number of times.

- When, Doctor? This year or last wear?

We did some tests this year, this summer.

This year? :

A. Yes, sir.

985. Mr. Gariepy: I will have this paper marked as‘.

plaintiff’s exhibit 56 for identification.

( written sheet referred to was thereupon marked -

4 o) Reporter ‘‘Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 56 for identifica-

ion.’’ ; :

a Where were these conducted, at the ‘University?

A. 36@,0r.. ~

bestie:* As shown on — ’s exhibit number 56 for identi-

Pore

666 Tramscript of: Testimony Before Master.

A: Yes.

- Were these on ‘pistalieais sent to you * Fieldcrest

Dalries, or those that you used in your dairy down there,

Doctor? ~

_ A. My. recollection is that they were sent: to us.

ee — to you by Fieldcrest Dairies?

= What tests did you perform to ascertain the sanitary

-aspects of and sanitary qualities of the ‘Pouring lip of the

Pure-Pak Container?

A. = this experiment we took—may I correct it, please?

: Q. Yes.

A. In this particular table, it was on containers in our

study at the University. ~«

Q. All right. 3

986 A. . After they were sealed i in iad bottled and séaled

9, mS the machine. ' a .

A. But not paraffined. Ne vat

_ Q. What did you do?

A. We cut out the area (indicating).

aes Indicating all aronnd the pouring ‘lip, on the out-

_ side

- A. .The pouring lip, and again disintegrated the paper

into oy and plated the pulp.

ou cut this portion. out and disintegrated this por-—

ioe did you, Doctor?

A. Yes, sir.” .

Q. Put it into the disintegrater with sterile water?

A. Yes, sir.

Q: Then what dia you do, when you took the count?

A» The count was per gram of the paper, including the

pouring lip; it varied; the highest count was 33 per gram

of the paper. If I may add, the meaning of it was that

it was not any higher than any other part of the container.

Q.. Is that, in your opinion, a chausnsay: condition of the

pourin py ‘

Q. " Destes, did you perform some other or addi-

987 tional tests with regard to the pouring lip on the Pure-

Pak Container by applying an atomhizer? =“

A. Yes, sir.

_ °-Q. When did you do that?

_A. That was done in Abril or are 1939.

Q. Where was it done? —

& | ae

Testimony of Martin John Prucha. 667

'- A, It was done at the University.

“Q. Who did it? ; }

A. I did. Baan esting,

Q. Where did you get the containers that you performed

this teston? ~ §- : -;

A. The containers were paraffined and filled with milk

and were sent down from the Dean Milk Company.

. Q. What did you do when you got those containers,

filled with milk? 7 roe

A. It was these containers that we sprayed with the

bacteria, we inoculated, infected this part by spraying |

with the atomizer. .

The Master: What do you mean by ‘‘this part’? -

Mr. Gariepy: Q. Indicating the gable part, or around

the pouring lip? x. :

A. ‘The side where it has a pouring lip was sprayed

- with heavy bacterial suspension by means of an atomizer,

_ depositing bacteria of a known on it. -

. Then what did you do after you sprayed it?

988° A. «Then they were opened and milk poured and the

‘milk was examined for the presence of any bacteria

_ that we put on the outside. .

Q. What did you find? es |

A. ‘We examined in one sy 20 containers:

Mr. Gariepy: I will have this sheet marked as plaintiff’s

exhibit 57 for identification. « .

. (Typewritten sheet referred to was thereupon marked

pd mn Reporter ‘‘Plaintiff’s Exhibit-No. 57 for identifica-

on. 3

Q. You are. now referring to plaintiff’s exhibit number

' 87 for identification? : eee

inaking alfogether 80 plates, and they were all free from

bacteria except one. One’plate had one of the bacteria

present. . ee 7 :

Q. Would you say that shows a sanitary or an unsani-

tary condition of the pouring lip? — el

A. That shows a sanitary condition of the pouring lip.

Q. Doctor, did you inocul::te the containers further by

the operator dipping his hands in the suspension, rubbing

‘

__ the surfaces inside of the containers, to ascertain whether

they would take the bacteria and the bacteria would sur-

vive, or not? . Coke esi? |

A. Yes, sir. |

Ne : t Ke

668 _ Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

989 Q. When did you perform such a test that you have

described by the operator dipping his hands. in the

suspension, rubbing.the surfaces inside of the containers?

A. This-was done in the spring of 1937.

Q: Where was it done, Doctor?

A.* At the University of Illinois, while we had the ma-.

chine there.

| What was the bacteria in which the operator had

his hands submerged and contaminated? Sake

A. It was the bacillus prodigeosis.

*Q. How much of that did you have in the bucket you

put your hands in?

A. It varied from several billion, invariably it would

be two or three million bacteria per millimeter of the sus-

- pension. .

Q. . What did you do when your hands were put in there:

and contaminated. with the tpoterea, what did you do next,

Doctor?

A. Next.the containers were passed through the ma-

. chine to be treated, paraffined and sealed.

Q. Your hands were put into i Bsa rence n contain-

ers, or blanks?»

A. Y¥es, sir.

Q. ‘Then they were put i in the machine and hata d were run

through paraffin, in the bath?

A. Yes, sir.

9 And down through the cooling — and filled?

A. Yes,-sir.

Q. Then you took the count on them?

A. _ Yes, sir. >

Q. What did the count show?

A. The count showed that if you inoculate | these con-

tainers, the surface of these containers, with heavy bac-

terial suspension, if you inoculate the containers by dipping

. your hand in a bacterial suspension containing’ te A

dred million bactefi and then inoculate the containers by

rubbing the hands on the inside and then parafiining the

containers in the usual way, and seal it, then take it in the

- laboratory and examine it for the presencé of surviving

bacteria, we found—

Mr. Gariepy: I will have this sheet marked as plain-

tiff’s exhibit 58 for identification.

(Typewritten sheet referred to was Ganigien marked

Testimony of Martin John Prucha. . 669 :

by the Reporter ‘‘Plaintiff’s Exhibit No. 58 for identifica-

tion.’’ coe: os

Q. ae are reading now from plaintiff’s exhibit-num-

ber 58, which are your figures and the result of this test?

A. Yes, sir. a 7

Q. All right, what did you find?

991 A. In one test wetreated 300 containers. 100 were

paraffined at 160 degrees F. 91 were negative and 9 -

showed the presence of the bacteria. 100 containers were

. paraffined at 170. : oe,

Q. Paraffined at 170 a. os .

A. ar paraffined at 170 degrees F. . | ee

ee Ray ; Pees :

. 99 showed the absence of bacteria, and one showed - “

the presence of one or more bacteria. Those paraffined at

180 degrees F., 98 were®free from bacteria and two showed

the presence of on: or more colonies, Shall I read this?

Q. The right hand column shows the number of what? ™

A. Bacteria in suspension. . ey

Q. 250 million? idee

' A. Yes, sir, 250 million per ml. e last of this type

of experiments, number five, we inoculated and treated 600

of these containers. 200 of them were -paraffined at 180°

ro ge F; 200 of them were paraffined at 185 degrees‘ F;

. of them were paraffined at 190 degrees F. Suspension —

200 million bacteria per m.J. Of all those, the 600 contain-

_ ers were free from bacteria, as determined by our method.

i baie does that — with — ee effect of

ing process on, the paper board in the paraffin

- 992 baths a8 oe

_ . +A. It means this, that when you inoculate the con-

tainers very heavily with millions of bacteria and pass them

_ through immediately some of the bacteria may survive.

g Q. Did _ also inoculate the same container with your

hands on outside? - Rae

A. Yes. = 45 mies _*

me And what did the result of that test show, after you

inoculated the container that way? v

_ A. We tried to reproduce the normal handling of the °

containers as they are handled under ordinary conditions,

1n actual operations,so that the operator infected his hands

by dipping his hands in bacterial suspension.

Q. Go ahead, Doctor. . rr

A. And when all of the loose water dripped off of them,

_ dicati

670 Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

we took a bundle of them from the carton in which ie

were shipped to the milk plant and straightened them and

_: put them on the rack, on the machine, and from that point

on the machine handled them.

‘Q.. Then, when they got through the machine, what did

you ‘do with them?

A. They ‘were not filled with milk. They were .

993 sealed, paraffined, went through the machine and we

took them into the laboratory and examined them.

Q. What did you find? - “fi

A. We found this situation: 300 containers inoculated

this way, bacteria suspension 100 million, paraffined at 170

degrees F., 180 degrees F. and 190 degrees F., 100

That i is 100 each paraffined at 170, 180 and 190

grees F , respectively?

A. Yes.

Proceed. |

A. ‘We did not find a single container containin the in-

oculating bacteria. Another test, we again ran. con-

-tainers, paraffined at 170 degrees F., 180 degrees F. and

190 degrees F’., 100 each, and again we found no bacteria in

the containers. The last test, we inoculated 600. containers

the same way, 200 we paraffined at 170 degrees F., 200 were

paraffined at 180 degrees F., and 200 were paraffined at

190 degrees F.

Q. t did that show?

A. Paraffined at 170 degrees F., 200 containers were

free from bacteria. 200 of the containers paraffined at 180

degrees F. were free from bacteria and 199 of the .con- |

tainers paraffined at 190 degrees F. were free from |

994 bacteria. On one of the containers paraffined at 190

de F. there was one colony of the red organism.

The Master: O. That is in ae case where the bacteria

was put on the outside?

A. Yes, and they touched the rim or did more, it is in

‘2. ole

Gariepy: Q. That is the inside flaps. of the ‘bottle,

before they are filled and sealed? 3

A. Yes, ‘ ;

Q. Outside or inside, Doctor!

A. Here is the way they take them, he touches it (in-

‘The Master: Q. The experiments » were conducted before |

the containers were y put up in the form that they

are in when they contain milk?

° =

Testimony of Martin John Prucha. 671

A. Yes.

Q. . They were just flat?

A. He takes them, and in a regular sauiienint he>

straightens them out and puts them up in the rack.

‘Mr. Gariepy: Q. He straightens the edges up so > they

will go into the machine evenly?

A. Yes.

995 Q. On the rack? |

A. Yes. We just asked him to do it as he dane it in ~

an the machine.

Q. is t is the regular fanction? -

A. Yes.

The Master: Do you want to stop here?

- ‘Mr. Gariepy: Yes. . |

. The Masters Have you finished? ~

~ Mr. Gariepy.: I think so.

The Master: We will adjourn until 2:00 0 ‘clock.

(Thereupon, recess was taken until 2:00 o ’clock, Pp. m. s

on the same va September 12, 1939. D..

996 wi (Caption) ~e

‘Tuesday, Geptinber 12, 1939, s

2 o’clock p. m..,, -

Met,. pursuant to recess.

Present:

Mr. Gariepy, Mr. Rall, Mr. ‘Schaefer, Mr. Horan.

997 Gariepy: If the Master please, Mr. Woodman .

n preessea for time to make some inspections

since te was called away on that funeral. He is here and

we can only call him this afternoon. I have. asked Mr.

’ Schaefer's permission to proceed with him now and —

Dr. Prucha’s examination.

The Master: How long will he be?

_ Mr. Gariepy: I won’t be very long wae him. I have

just a few questions with him.

The Master: It is satisfactory to you, Mr. Schaefer, to

have Mr. W n testify now?

Mr, Schaefer: Yes, that is satisfactory.

The Master: Allright. ~« —

CEL, AEP RY ETT RATE ne

672 Besant: of ew -_ Master. 9,

M, J.. WOODMAN called as a witness on behalf of the

plaintiff, being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Direct’ Examination by Mr. Gariepy.

What is your name? ie

. M. J. Woodman. 3 cae ke

* What is your address? foe te Io

1123 Noyes Street, Evanston, Illinois.

What is your business or occupation? :

I am with the health department there, food and -

dairy.

998 . Q. What de epartment 0 of’ the health. ‘department!

‘A. Food and dairy

Q. How long have you been i in that department?

9 Twenty-four years. ~

How long have = been connected with the milk

“er %:

About 60 years.> _

How old are you? —

| + I was Born on a dairy farm. We neds milk and

dipped it to Chicago years ago. That is what I meant

‘when I said I was in the milk business so long. Then I

perers Pe.

came ‘to Chicago or to Evanston and bought eut a milk # ;

* route and retai ed milk in those days,’until I went into the

health department. That is how I happen to figure up

the number of years I gave you.

Q. _ What, are yout duties in the health department! ;

A. *In charge ut food and dairies and the milk supply

- of Evanston. \

: You use the Pure-Pak container that the Fieldcrest

ss sells milk\in up there? —

-We-have those delivered up .there, yes, sir.

0. How long have they been used in Evanston?

A. Since the first of January.

Q. .This year? |

A. Yes. n

Wh#t research work or check-up do you do on those

containers to ascertain their sanitary qualities and

999 sterility. qualities?

A. We test the milk as ‘delivered to the consumer

weekly. We also make a test of the sanitary condition of

-the container as it is ready to deliver milk in, They

wend cases to us, that is, of the pemeers.

©:

| Testimony of M. J. Woodman. 673

Q And how often are they sent to you by the Field-

crest Dairies, to check.up on the board?

' A. We started checking the first of June and they have -

been delivered there practically every week.

Q. And’ are these checks the rinse tests?

- A. The rinse tests, yes, sir.

Q. How often do you perform the tests on the milk te

that comes in the containers?

A. Weekly.

Q. Have you the results of those ilies and those |

tests on the milk and on the board with you? .

A. I have the check-up on the beard’ I did not bring

my check-up on the milk supply. I didn’t know you

wanted that. But I have that in my head. I can give

you: that.

Q. Are these tests on the board, as the samples are de-

livered to you every two weeks by the Fieldcrest Dairies,

conducted in your own laboratory?

A. They are, in the Evanston laboratory.

Q. And under your supervision and control? .

1900 <A. Under. the supervision of the chemists of

| Evanston.

Q. I show you a ¢arton box of brown paper, which

has the title, ‘‘Evanston Board of Health, attention of

Mr. Woodman.’’ Is that, the way you receive the esas

from Fieldcrest Dairies every two,” weeks ?. _ '

-A. . Tt is, yes, sir.

. Q. And these other ones that are delivered to the

laboratory.

A.. Those are the ones ; that are delivered to the labora- Pag

tory, through me, to be tested.

The Master: Let the record show that counsel is show- nee

™?, the witness a carton containing something.

Mr. Gariepy: Q. How many blanks are usually in

those cartons?

A. There are twelve. Six quarts, three pints and three

half-pints that. fh ag have milk or cream delivered | in -

them. .

The Master: Q. These are just flat?

_ A. ‘No. These are set up ones; already paraffined, sini

to be filled.

. I-see.

: A. BReady:to be filled. We have ies sent to us that

way for testing.

Mr. Gariepy: Q. They are paraffined?

«674 Transcript of Testimony Before B Master.

- A.-.They are paraffined and ready to be filled, but in

‘place of filling them they simply put them in. the

1001 machine and send_them out to us that way.

Q. Will you give us the results of your checks |

' since you began checking these in June, 19391 :

A. These are the only two comparies. Here are the

Fieldcrest. és

Q. This is the Fieldcrest?

A. These are Fieldcrest, yes.

at Do you also permit the use of other paper containers

‘in Evanston?

A. We do. |

2. Wat are the names of those ceeateiieniiie’

Those are = out by the Bowman Dairy Company —

i the Borden Dairy Company since the first of Januv-

ary

o. Will you look at the group of papers, yellow slips —

here which you handed mie and placed on the table, and

tell me whether those.are your origiual entry records con- -

a te, on this paper board?

hese are the original entries as delivered to me

ns Ragga city chemist of Evanston, as we have tested them

Q. What.do they show with regard to the bacteria

count on, first, the quart containers?

A. I put the quarts and pints in together. They

are all together here. ;

; . Q. What dogthey show? ,

1002. A. Heré arg@{101 samples taken. Is that want

"yon mean? .-

es.

A. Thirty-three per pase of these containers with the

rinse method show zero, that i is, no growth ‘at all. Twenty-

nine show 100 or less. That is 29 per cent. Twenty show

a bacteria of 100 to 500. Twelve samples out of the hun-

dred show from 500 to a thousand bacteria. Seven. out

of the hundred show over 1,000. One thousand is the

standard for containers, . ‘bottles and, glasses, empty con-

tainers, ready to be filled. One thousand i is the°standard

. set by the U..S. Code.

- Q. Do you-know offhand the bacteria count you found

in cartons of milk from Fielderest Dairies taken from

_" — from time to time in Evanston? -

‘Testimony of M. J. Woodman. 675

Q. And what has been the bacteria count in those quart:

containers, we. will say?

A. They ran from 4,000, F believe. The highest this.

year has been 255,000 in the milk. That-is very consistent

} with any of the other. dairies putting out milk in bottles.

Bre. ve yon had occasion at any time to gues any

ts, other than the ‘rinse tests?

A. We have not. You méan on the carton?

1003 Q. Yes.

A. No, sir. ae 3

Q. Besides thilk cartons in Evanston, are there other

cartons’ used for food products, such as oysters, ice cream?

A. Yes, lots of them.

Q: . And do you have any examination or inspection of

them? : .)

- A. Ne ein...

Q. Do you know what board they are made out of?

‘A. I-do not. I say I. never examined them. I have

. examined them for bacteria by the rinse test, that i is true,

a few years ago, rinsing out the oyster pails and ice |

cream pails. Of course, these are open. They are not

sealed. They are open to contamination. We find, of

course, a differnt picture ‘from these.

Q. Referring to ice cream pails?

A. Yes. We have those in the market, too.

Q. I show you a large erown bucket.

A. Yes. eras

Q. That is a gallon, or two gallons, 7 guess.

A. Yes. And they have a five-gallon.

2. 7 you see that paper liner on the inside?

; 8.

9 i you know what quality of paper that is poet

ut o

A. “No.

Q. You permit the use of these also in Evanston!

1004 ° A. Wedo! .

Q. Have you had any occasion, since you have

been using the paper container in Evanston, to go to the

mill or to the fabricating plant, to do any check- -up on the »

: eT of board used, or the sanitary methods employed —

ere

A. No, we never even considered it necessary, any more —

than I would in the make-up of the bottle. If we con-

sider it necessary we can do it very quickly in the labora-

saa Sisneoelan of Testimony Before Master.

tory. If the question came up, we éould do it, in other

» words, if we had to. ~

: Q. And how would you do it?

. A. Soaking a quantity up and wiping Fi out. I have

got the methods at home. I don’t recall them just at

_preseut. It is very easily done.

Y. How long have you been familiar with this proj-

ect or problem of the use of the paper bottles for milk? -

A. t think we considered it—I think it was about a

year — it came fo our view. We did not allow it at that

_ time. e did not know anything about it.

Q. ‘What did you do before you allowed it to‘come into

use?

A. ‘We investigated it thoroughly, so I would become

convinced that it was perfectly proper to allow it. -

1005 We had Dr. Prucha’s analysis.

7 Q. Is that Dr. Prucha sitting behind you here,

from the University of Illinois?

A. Yes. We. aiso at Cleveland last year devoted the

‘meeting one day on this subject. It was discussed. Cleve-

land allowed them for five years, and at Saratoga. As far

as I recall now, the cities that put them in had no trouble.

There was no question about their being used. So we con-

sidered it and granted: them this spring permission to put

them in.

Mr. Gariepy: Cross examine.

Cross-Examination by Mr. Schaefer.

Q. You went to Cleveland to a meeting, Mr: Wood-

man? ;

a: re

And you talked to ‘Dr. Proche? | ,

. Lam not saying I talkod to Dr. Prucha at that meet-

ing. I talked to Dr. rucha i in Louisville.

Yes

But I-had Dr. Prucha’s written’ report on this sub-

And what other investigation did you maker:

The Saratoga and the Cleveland. |

What did you do at Saratoga?

A. The por tage we had the same talk, at dif-

~ 1006 ferent cities where 4 allowed them, and after they

had been allowed for three or four or five years, they

B evel

were still allowing them, and no question of discontinuing

the delivery of them. . -

2. Who ran those meetings?

= gg your Bea the . :

> 0 organized those meetings

A. They were the International Association of Dairy-

men—lI forget the name of our association. It is the In-

ternational: Association of Milkmen—of Milk Dealers—

_ not dealers, but health men. * ,

The Master: Buf what?

-. The Witness: An. international association.

The Master: What is that last word?

The Witness: Health men. I ought to be able to recall

that name.

member what it is. ;

Mr. Schaefer: Q. Milk Sanitarians?

A. Milk Sanitarians, now you have it. You helped me

out. Thank you. “

Q. Are you a doctor?

A. No, sir.

Q. Yon testified that seven per cent of the abies from

‘the Fieldcrest Dairies, which you examined during the pe-

riod since June 1, 1939, were above the permissible range,

by a rinse test?

1007 =A. =Yes, sir.

Q. What did y do about those samples?

‘A. Nothing:

Q.. a you propose to do anything about them?

Oo.

I see. : ;

I want to make a remark. No more than—

No, don’t make any remarks. I will ask you the

questions, Mr. Woodman.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, you are enforcing in Evanston the United

States Public Health Service ordinance? .”

‘A. Yes, sir.

Q. What does that ‘contemplaté;’+ with respect to the

ae a and processing of milk?

I didn’t get that exactly:

Do you/nspect farms?

hae wet

you in cows? ©

| We .

eee

POPo>

Testimony of M. J. Woodman. we

678 » Transcript of Testimony Before Master. ,

. Do you pay any attention to what the cows “eat?

A. Surely.

Q. And what do you look for on the farm?

_ A. Sanitary conditions in the barns and stables and see

whether they come up to those requirements, and the gut-

ters, whitewashing, the condition of the cows, where. the

milk is kept, cooling water, temperature, cleanliness

1008 of the cans, pails and utensils, whether the milk stools

are clean and hung up, all of those octal, under the

United States Code. |

Q. Water supply?

A: Water supply. The wells bate to be properly.

— just according to the United States Public Health ‘

Q. With respect. to the: pasteurization plants, what do

you inspect concerning them?

A. The way the milk comes in and is handled there, the

receiving vats, the weighing vats, the equipment, the pas-

teurizing time, the temperature, to see that it is all kept

up to requirements; the bottles, the way they are washed

there and also the sanitary condition of’ the washed bot-

tlés. When we take a test, we test also the farmers’ milk

as it comes to those plants.

Do you make a bacteria test of- the: farmers’ miik?

. We make a bacteria test of the farmers’ milk and

bas Bsc take the empty botfle ready to be capped and

9 How do yon get those bottles? |

. We take the empty bottles just as they go in the

eapper, and in place of having them filled with milk. we

, take them empty ard fest them by the rinse method.

°1009 Q. By ‘‘we’’ you mean yourself and those under —

your diréction? ~

A. Yes. I get the samples and they are taken to the

laboratory.’ We have a laboratory force there that does

the practical work.

In the event you find a dairy which is bottling milk

in glass bottles running a count above the permissible

limit, what do you do?

A. If they are just one or two bottles and they run in’

the low thousands or eleven hundred or thirteen hundred,

an occasional one, I would not do anything at all, If I

find them runnning up to twelve hundred or eleven hundred

right along consistently, then of course I would take’ egme

action. i

Testimony of M. J. Woodman. 679

-Q. What would you do? : c ¥

A. - I would tell them there was something wrong —

their washing equipment there, their sterilization, that th

did not ‘use the proper sterilization, and the ZA did not od

them thoroughly or did not sterilize them thoroughly.

Q. Would you go out or send someone out to look at the

plant? . zo

A. We do.

Q. You consistently do that?

A.. We certainly do, if there is asian wrong like

that, but with one or two samples or three or four

‘ 1010 occasionally, we gon ’t pay any attention to that. .

be Q. _ What sort of a percentage are you satisfied

wi '

A. It is just an occasional one. If you look those.

records over you will see there are hardly any high counts —

i. all. If I find bottles as good as that, I would be satis-

Saye

Mr. Gariepy: Q: When you say bottles, you mean

glass bottles?

A. Glass bottles.

‘Mr. Schaefer: Q. What percentage of compliance will

satisfy you? You say 93 per cent. All right. What per-

centage. would you consider not satisfactory? |

A. If I found ten or fifteen per cent running over and

then running over consistently. If I am testing milk her:

today from any good dairy and find a high test, { don’t pay —

ntion to it this week, but if I find it running high ~~

ext k and the next week, then of course I take ac- ,

— ut just on. one high sample alone we’ don ’t take

mn -

The Master: Q. It is more than one’ high sample; i

is a‘number of samples.

A. If there is a number of samples running high, then

I would take action. I have one today that I have got

to see tomorrow, because it is running high for, say

1011 three weeks’ “a9 That is what I mean.

Mr. Schaefer: When did you permit the use

of the paper containers

A. I think it was the first of January. I 4m not cer-

tain whether that was December or the first of January.

_.. I think it was in December. I am not certain whether it

- 7 oo of December last year or thé first of January.

680 Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

A. 1938, in December. I didn’t look that up. But. it

was one of those two months.

| 3 It might have been December, 1938, or January,

1939?

A. Yes, it was one of those two months.

. What tests did you make between January, 1939,

June, 1939?

ae About four hundred, three to four hundred Lecwasei

Q. Where did you get "those? * ;

A. We got those from the Borden and Bow man Dairy

_ Company.

Q. And you used—

‘A. We used the same method.

Q. The Borden Company and the Bowman Dairy Com-

pany ?

yo ee sel” :

Q. And you used rif se tests there as well? | ,

A. Just the same. We got a carton like these every

other week from the two companies, one every week

1012 from each of the companies.

Q. Where:is the paper made? :

A. I believe their package is made by the American Can

impression that it is made by the Ameyican Can Company.

Q. Do you know where the. paper is produced?

Pe A. I do not. ‘I. believe New York, but I would not say

that.

Q. It might be Canada?

A. It might be.

Q. That is true of all of the paper ey in the distribu-

tion of milk i in the city of Evanston?

A. That is, all. We have not gone into where it was

made, no, sir.

Q. Do you consider the source of the paper important

in gad the sanitary quality of the paper?

. Yes

Q. Why haven’t you asia any effort to ascertain the

_ source of the paper?

_ A. Because we find by test that the milk—the empty

container has no bacteria, itis facteria free. If it has two -

or three hundred bacteria, I: don ’t.see how it makes any

particular difference in that.

_ Ye say eas the containers free of bacteria!

eo. -

- oR

Testimony of M.J. Woodman, = 681.

1013 Q. Asa matter of fact, you find by.your regular

_ tests made since June 1st, that seven per cent of them

‘are over dhe thousand per container? |

ye? (oe

. Q Bya rinse test?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, that is not free of bacteria, i is itt

_ Mr. Gariepy: I object to that. That is arguing with thé”

‘witness, Master. «

The Master: Oeacealed::

The Witness: A. It is the same way with the empty, :

bottle, your Honor. :

Mr. Gariepy: Q. Glas or paper bottle? }

A. Glass bottle.

. Mr. Schaefer: Just a minute. You will have your op-

portunity, Mr. Gariepy.

. . Mr. Gariepy: I know, but he says “bottle. ”? TI want to

know what he means.

The Witness: A. There is no ‘such thing as a sanitary |

container in any class. I have been through too many of

those.

Mr. Schaefer: Q. Now, Mr. Woodman, where are these

paper containers that are used in Evanston converted?

Are you familiar with that term, ‘‘converted’’?

A. Conversion.’ You mean made or fabricated and

formed?

1014 Q. I mean made, as distinguished from fabricated

and formed?

A. I don’t know. I know where they are formed.

Q. Where is that?

A. The Dean Company, I believe, form theirs at a plant

at Chemung, Illinois. .

Do you know where they are printed?

I do not.

Do you know where they are cut and shaped?

- Do I know what?

Do you know where the shape of the paper blank is

from the roll of paper?

No, I da not.°

‘You have never made any effort to ascertain that? °

No. We had not even considered it necessary.

Do you consider the conditions of that plant may

affect the sanitary quality of the finished container?

A: It perhaps could.

mc Paro!

iotat

, 682 Transcript of Testimony Before Master.

Q. In what way would they?

A. If the board was very inferior and in poor condition,

it probably would. If it was fabricated and handled in an

unsanitary manner, it probably would. With the paraffin-

ing even a poor board, when we find the bacteria as low as

it is, we consider it perfectly proper to be-used..

. Do you know what material ga paper board is

1015 made out of? :

A. Wood pulp, as I understand it. I don’t know

_ whether there is anything else. setae

~ Q. You don’t know anything beyond that?

A. I have read how they are made and how the wood is

ground up and made up into pulp and how it is pressed out.

I have read all that. I would not say ey are all made that

way, but I suppose they are.

Have you ever made successive rinse tests on a s paper

container? ;

A. Have we made what?

Q. Successive rinse tests on a paper container.

A. No. Just simply rinse tests on the hundred ce.

Q. Rinse tests on a glass bottle would remove all of the

bacteria on the bdttle, wouldn’t they? :

_ A. I would not think it would.

Q. What? | : ‘:

A. Certainly not.

Q. You would say it would not? tee We

A. Certainly not.. In other words, you rinsé this glass

bottle out with sterile water and then rinse it out with

anothér rinsing, and you might find a bacteria in there or ee:

two. or three, wouldn’t you? I beg your pardon. I didn’t

mean to ask questions.

‘ Q. Have you ever tried it?

A. Yes, I have.

1016 -Q. What did you find?

' A. I found some bacteria left on the second and

third rinsings. ~

Yea you ever try it with the paper container?

es.

*. What did you find?

A. The same thing. -

Bs Did you ever conduct any disintegration tests!

_Q.

No, sir.

Has anyone connected with the Evanston Board of

He Ith ever performed mt disintegration tests?

Testimony of M.J. Woodman. °. 683

a No.

. Who made the decision in n the city of Evanston as to

- whether or not milk might be distributed in paper con-

tainers? -

A. They left that up to me, the health board, Dr. ‘Tucker,

up to my recommendation. =

And you made the investigation that you have: de-.

: eoribodt eter ON

idn’t get tha

. MPGsriepy. Q Did you make the investigation that

you have described?

A. I did. ;

Mr. Schaefer: .Q. And that is the only investigation

you have made?

A. Three years I have been investigating it. Down in

| Louisville.

1017. Mr. Schaefer: Q. You described the investigation

that you performed? ;

A. I did, after m lage es orgy and all the knowledge I

eal

ba eae

could get. From ‘Dr. Prucha’s examination and speech ~

down there on the cane container and tiie pulp it was made

- of and the sanitary condition of the pulp, we considered it, ,

was proper to allow them.

Q. How are your tests running on the other paper con-

tainers?

The Master: Q. The question is, how are your tests

running on the other paper containers?

A. I hear him. |

Are they running any different from the ones you

testified about, or are they about the same? ~~

A. No, just about the same. You ¢an see them there.

The Master: That is all.

Mr. Gariepy: That is enough. Just about the same.

That ‘answers it.

The Master: Mr. Schaefer, are. you satisfied with that

answer, about the same, or do you want to go into detail?

Mr. Schaefer: No, I am satisfied with that.

The Master: Allright. —

Mr. Schaefer: Q. Has the city of Ivanstos Adopted any

regulations with respect. to the manufacturing and

1018 handling of paper containers? -

A. We have not. Evanston expects to remodel

their code before the first of the year, along the lines of the

United. States Public Health Code, which made some

684 «= Transcript of Testimony Before Master. .

changes. We expect to remodel all of our Evanston code

to correspond with that. We may make some changes in

our entire code.

_Q. That is, you have at the presént time no regulations

whatsoever pertaining to the manufacture and handling of

paper containers? — i

A. We have not now, no.

Q. In the event that you found that the manufacture and

handling ‘of paper containers was unsatisfactory, what

would you do? — =

A. e would have to take means to control it, of cours¢.

- Q. Without regulations?

. A. We have the-right at any time to—anything that is

not satisfactory or sanitary, that we believe might be

detrimental to health, the health department, you know,

can control the output at any time.

Q. Do you know whether or not the water at the paper

mill where.this paper board is manufactured is chlorinated?

_A. I will have to tell you that I know nothing at eg

1019 all personally about any of that at the plant. :

| Q. You don’t know whether there is sewage in the

watér supply or not?

. Nothing at all.

‘ Q. What kinds of bacteria were dees that you discoy-

ered by. the rinse tests?

A. We made no differentiation of any of them at all.

Just simply a bacterial spore. . The individual bacteria is

not tested for, unless we have some reason for it-

- Q. Do you know whether or not the quality of paper is

uniform, from a sanitary point of view? - >

I do not. x

Your own tests would shov; you that? eat *)

‘No, we don’t test the quality of the paper at all.

= would show you whether or not it was uniform? >».

Would not the results of the tests to which you have

testified show you whether or-not the qeanty of the paper

was uniform?

A. -I don’t see why. :

Q. If it was of oo quality, ‘aie ’t you have the

same bacteria! _count throughout all of these contain-

gerets

ers?

1020 A. Not necessarily.

Q. —_ er et —

Testimony of M. J. Weoumen. nts 685

A. “The handling of it, the way they were out “P down oe

there, might affect it.

Down where?

Where they were fabricated.

Where?

. Where they were fabricated. .

You mean at Chemung?

The place where these are put up. .

- You mean at Chemung,,. Illinois?

‘4 1 beg your pardon?

The Master: He can’t hear you. _

Mr. Schaefer: Q. Do you mean at _— Ilinois?

A. Yes, I mean that. .

*Q. I see.

A. I mean, if they were not carefully handled insite and

well paraffinéd, then there would be a great difference, of

course. A well paraffined container may a

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