Amicus Curiae Brief — Krivacska v. New Jersey
Supreme Court brief2002
Ask Donna
What actually matters in this document.
Text
MOTION Filly |
APR 2 2002 Ze
No. 01-1326
oe
IN THE
Supreme Court of the United States
JAMES J. KRIVACSKA,
Petitioner.
Vv.
STATE OF NEW JERSEY,
Respondent.
On PETITION FOR A WRIT OF CERTIORARI
TO THE SUPERIOR Court OF NEw JERSEY,
APPELLATE DIVISION
MOTION OF THE SCIENTISTS CONCERNED FOR
RELIABILITY OF CHILDREN’S REPORTS, ACCUSATIONS
AND TESTIMONY FOR LEAVE TO FILE BRIEF
AMICUS CURIAE AND BRIEF AMICUS CURIAE
IN SUPPORT OF PETITIONER
AMY GERSHENFELD DONNELLA
Attorney for Amicus Curiae
310 Chamounix Road
St. Davids, Pennsylvania 19087
(610) 341-9566
173263 ce
COUNSEL PRESS
(800) 274-3321 * (800) 359-6859
’
The undersigned amicus group, Scientists Concerned for
Reliability of Children’s Reports, Accusations and Testimony,
hereby requests that this Court grant it permission to file a
brief in support of the grant of certiorari in the above-
captioned case. Petitioner has consented to the submission
of a brief by the amicus group but the Respondent has refused
its consent.
In support of its Motion, the amicus group shows this
Court the following:
1. This amicus group is comprised of members of the
academic research community and includes the many of the
world’s foremost experts in the field of suggestive
interviewing of children. Each member of the group has
participated firsthand in the development of research
paradigms, the implementation of research projects, and the
analysis of research results from studies designed to
determine the effects of suggestive questioning on children.
All of the members of this group have testified as experts
and/or participated as amici in jurisdictions throughout the
United States. The members of the amicus group are listed
in the Appendix attached to the brief that accompanies this
Motion.
2. The question presented for this Court’s consideration
is whether a state violates a defendant’s rights to
confrontation and to due process when it admits into evidence
uncorroborated accusations of child sex abuse from children
whose memories have been rendered unreliable by suggestive
questioning. Despite Respondent’s refusal to consent to the
participation of this amicus group, the group is comprised
of the very scientists who have conducted the research relied
on by the state and defense experts who testified in this case
about suggestive interviewing and its effects on children.
3. The writings and research results of members of
the amicus group were misstated by the state’s expert,
and by New Jersey trial and appellate courts in this case.
A fair resolution of the legal and policy issues raised in
Mr. Krivacska’s petition must ultimately rest on sound
science and this amicus group is in the unique position of
being able to provide this Court with the most accurate and
up-to-date science that exists in this field.
4. The studies conducted by these researchers fall into
three broad categories: (a) studies that examine the effect of
Suggestive questioning on children by mimicking the type
of questioning to which children are often subjected in
settings involving the criminal justice system; (b) studies that
measure the ability of professionals accurately to judge
whether children’s reports are true or false, based on how
credible the children appear to be when rendering these
reports; and (c) studies to determine what linguistic markers
and other objective factors, if any, distinguish reports of true
events from reports of false events.
5. Although the research results of the amicus group are
uncontroverted within the scientific community, this field
has spawned many self-styled “experts,” a number of whom
are clinical psychologists and child welfare professionals,
rather than research scientists. These “clinical experts” who
testify in child sex abuse cases pay lipservice to the validity
of the science but ultimately reject it in favor of their non-
scientific clinical intuitions.
6. In the case at bar, consistent with the mandate of the
New Jersey Supreme Court in State v. Michaels, 642 A.2d
1372 (NJ 1994), the trial court held a pretrial hearing to
determine if the interviewing techniques that elicited reports
of sexual abuse from the child complainants had the capacity
to render the children’s reports of abuse unreliable. If so, the
———~_—
—_eo ee
children’s post-questioning reports would have to be
excluded under Michaels in order to preserve Petitioner’s
right to confront the witnesses against him.
7. During this pretrial hearing, Dr. Kathryn Hall testified
as a state expert about suggestive questioning and the
suggestibility of children, citing often to research conducted
by members of this amicus group, Drs. Stephen Ceci and
Maggie Bruck. Using what she referred to as the “Ceci and
Bruck model,” Hall testified, consistent with valid scientific
research, that children are highly suggestible, that the child
complainants in this case were highly suggestible, and that
the interviews to which these children were subjected were
highly suggestive.
8. However, Hall departed entirely from the Ceci and
Bruck model and from all other scientific literature when
she then testified that there were ways by which she could
tell from the children’s reports that the children had not
succumbed to suggestive questioning. Acknowledging that
her conclusions were based entirely on her own clinical
intuitions, Hall outlined a checklist of characteristics of the
children’s reports that prompted her to draw this conclusion.
9. Hall provided no scientific basis for her assertions.
Nor could she have. Research has proved just the opposite:
the objective markers Hall relied upon will not distinguish
accurate reports from false reports of children whose
memories have been tainted by suggestive questioning.
10. On the strength of the unsupported (and disproved)
junk science propounded by Dr. Hall, the New Jersey trial
court found the reports of abuse generated by suggestive
questioning in this case reliable and admissible in court.
The New Jersey Appellate Court upheld this finding.
11. The members of this amicus group believe it is
critical for this Court to understand the research in this field
in order for the Court to be able fully to assess why the
question presented by the petitioner warrants consideration.
12. Accordingly, the undersigned amicus group asks the
Court to give it the opportunity to submit the attached brief,
which summarizes the most current research in the field of
suggestive interviewing of children and which explains why
the members of the group urge this Court to grant certiorari.
Respectfully submitted,
Amy GERSHENFELD DONNELLA
Attorney for Amicus Curiae
310 Chamounix Road
St. Davids, Pennsylvania 19087
(610) 341-9566
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Table of Cited Authorities ............-. ee eeee il
Statement of Interest of the Amicus Group ....... 1
The Bias of an Interviewer Is Likely to Result in
Suggestive Questioning and, In Turn, to Reports
of Non-Experienced Events ............-++-. 4
Research Has Demonstrated that Children’s False
Reports Appear Credible to Adults, Even those
Who Are Trained Professionals .............. 11
There Are No Objective Markers that Distinguish
False From True Reports ..........----eeee> 15
The Assertions of the State’s Expert in the Case
at Bar Typify the Misinformation and Bad Science
Being Accepted by the Courts, Resulting in
Convictions Based on Unreliable Reports of Abuse
and Unreliable Science ...........2ceeeeee- 16
The Issue Presented to this Court For Certiorari
Review is One of Significant Public Importance,
Requiring a Determination by this Court, to
Provide Direction to Trial Courts Throughout the
Rn cian naan eee ama ee er 18
orn Perro e yer ies Fy k 20
|) an la
il
TABLE OF CITEDAUTHORITIES
Page
Federal Cases
Foster v. California, 394 U.S. 440, 89 S. Ct. 1127
1 rer rn ee ree 19
Idaho v. Wright, 497 U.S. 805, 110 S. Ct. 3139 (1990)
edad hte Cah oats tees oe tenn 19
Lee v. Illinois, 476 U.S. 530, 106 S. Ct. 2056
STU chs obces kdnadneereewe desea 19
Manson v. Brathwaite, 432 U.S. 98, 97S. Ct. 2243
CECE ON é 6a cecees dckeeeeeaswe ose 19
Neil v. Biggers, 409 U.S. 188, 93 S. Ct. 375 (1972)
$4060040ueekueinaee dened smears 19
Ohio v. Roberts, 448 U.S. 56, 66, 100 S. Ct. 2539
SEED a.0:94 46 kG cdie ene sake oes eee eee 19
Rock v. Arkansas, 483 U.S. 44, 107 S. Ct. 2704 (1987)
+s ketenes odes eteueneneeene tee eee 19
Stovall v. Denno, 388 U.S. 293, 87 S. Ct. 1967
bi PEE TOE Oe ee ne ee 19
United States v. Wade, 388 U.S. 218, 87 S. Ct. 1926
ERED 4s 64 6440u5 oo Sha ckee ieee 19
White v. Illinois, 502 U.S. 346, 112 S. Ct. 736
SRD aka vekkeed be ecu cask eels 19
iil
Cited Authorities
Page
Scientific Research Literature and Authority
Binet, A., La Suggestibilité. Paris: Schleicher Freres.
(BGG oc cccncnssedaccnnccssascsccesesss 8
Bottoms, B., Rucknick, A., & Nysse-Carris, K.,
Adults’ Assessments of Children’s Testimonial
Confidence and Accuracy Paper Presented at the
AP-LS Biennial Conference, Austin, TX. (March,
Pr rrr ery Perr rye Tr rer 14
Brady, M. S., Poole, D. A., Warren, A. R., & Jones,
H. R., “Young children’s responses to yes-no
questions: Patterns and problems.” Applied
Developmental Science, 3, 47-57 (1999) ....... 6, 16
Bruck, M., & Ceci, S. J., “Reliability and
Suggestibility of Children’s Statements: From
Science to Practice.” In D. Schetkey and
E. Benedict (Eds.), Comprehensive Textbook in
Child and Adolescent Forensic Psychiatry.
(\ ) eee er ree rr +
Bruck, M., Ceci, S. J., Francoeur, E., & Barr, R. J.
“*T hardly cried when I got my shot!’. Influencing
children’s reports about a visit to their
pediatrician.” Child Development, 66, 193-208.
‘(+ PERPTEPPEPPTTLTTIT rir iit 7
Bruck, M., Ceci, S. J., Francoeur, E., & Renick, A.
“Anatomically detailed dolls do not facilitate
preschoolers’ reports of a pediatric examination
involving genital touch.” Journal of Experimental
Psychology: Applied, 1, 95-109. (1995b) ...... 10
—
iv
Cited Authorities
Bruck, M., Ceci, S.J., & Hembrooke, The nature of
children’s true and false narratives. Developmental
UD | ino a 6.04 bt as che cesacsceess
Bruck, M., Melnyk, L., & Ceci, S. J., “Draw it again
Sam: The effects of repeated drawing on the
accuracy of children’s reports and source
monitoring attributions.” Journal of Experimental
Child Psychology, 77, 169-196. (2000) ........
Carter, C. A., Bottoms, B. L., & Levine, M.,
“Linguistic and socioemotional influences on the
accuracy of children’s reports.” Law and Human
Behavior, 20, 335-358. (1996) ............6.5.
Ceci, S. J., & Bruck, M., “The suggestibility of the
child witness: A historical review and synthesis.”
Psychological Bulletin, 1] 3, 403-439. (1993) ...
Ceci, S. J. & Bruck, M., Jeopardy in the courtroom:
A scientific analysis of children’s testimony.
Washington, DC: American Psychological
ED cok sunueced dbeecassacaee
Ceci, S. J., Crotteau-Huffman, M., Smith, E.,
& Loftus, E. W., “Repeatedly thinking about
non-events.” Consciousness & Cognition, 3, 388-
EAE ye OS epee GN ae
Ceci , S. J. & Friedman, R. D., “The suggestibility
of children: Scientific research and legal
implications.” Cornell Law Review, 86, 34-108.
Page
% a5
10
4,6
5,7
Cited Authorities
Ceci, S. J., Loftus, E. W., Leichtman, M. & Bruck,
M., “The role of source misattributions in the
creation of false beliefs among preschoolers. ©
International Journal of Clinical and
Experimental Hypnosis, 62, 304-320. (1994b)
Page
PEO ee ee ee Tree C eee Te ee YE Tee ey 9,11,14
Ceci, S. J., Ross, D., & Toglia, M., “Age differences
in suggestibility: Psycholegal implications.”
Journal of Experimental Psychology: General,
ip = Ro ee rere rer ree eee
Garven, S, Wood, J. M., & Malpass, R. S.,
“Allegations of wrongdoing: The effects of
reinforcement on children’s mundane and fantastic
claims.” Journal of Applied Psychology, 835,
OE EPP Te eee eer Tr rT rer ere
Garven, S., Wood, J. M., Shaw, J. S., & Malpass, R.,
“More than suggestion: Consequences of the
interviewing techniques from the McMartin
preschool case.” Journal of Applied Psychology,
Re Peer ee rer eCr rire ries
Goodman, G., & Aman, C., “Children’s use of
anatomically detailed dolls to recount an event.”
Child Development, 61, 1859-1871. (1990) ....
Goodman, G. S., Bottoms, B. L., Schwartz-Kenney,
B., & Rudy, L., “Children’s memory for a stressful
event.” Journal of Narrative and Life History, 1,
| RE ree ie ee ee ee
vi
Cited Authorities
Hembrooke, H., Toglia, M., & Ross, D., Children’s
suggestibility: The role of biaser credibility. Paper
presented at biennial meeting of the Society for
Research on Child Development, Seattle WA.
CA DINED aaa Fis Se COVER RR ATES.
Horner, T. M., Guyer, M., J., & Kalter, N. M.,
“Clinical expertise and the assessment of child
sexual abuse.” Journal of the American Academy
of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, 32, 925-931.
) Sern ee Cae Eger es emg ee
Lampinen, J. M., & Smith, V. L., “The incredible
(and sometimes incredulous) child witness: Child
eyewitnesses’ sensitivity to source of credibility
cues.” Journal of Applied Psychology, 80,
GEG See ook See es i
Leichtman, M. D., & Ceci, S. J., “The effects of
stereotypes and suggestions on preschoolers’
reports.” Developmental Psychology, 31, 568-578.
CRORES i ae es ce nn aS
Lepore, S. J., & Sesco, B., “Distorting children’s
reports and interpretations of events through
suggestion.” Applied Psychology, 79(1), 108-120.
| ND ee Der Meh re tres wn rary ay yee
Lindsay, D. S., Johnson, M. K. & Kwon, P.,
“Developmental changes in memory source
monitoring.” Journal of Experimental Child
fe a ee) err rr
Page
14
6, 10
Vil
Cited Authorities
Ornstein, P., Gordon, B. N., & Larus, D., “Children’s
memory for a personally experienced event:
Implications for testimony.” Applied Cognitive
Psychology, 6, 49-60. (1992) .........ccc0e0.
Parker, J., “Age differences in source monitoring of
performed and imagined actions on immediate and
delayed tests.” Journal of Experimental Child
Psychology, 60, 84-101. (1995) ..............
Peterson, C., & Bell, M., “Children’s memory for
traumatic injury.” Child Development, 67, 3045-
Pe RE ob ash a ots or de ee
Peterson, C., & Grant, M., “Forced Choice: Are
forensic interviewers asking the right question?”
Canadian Journal of Behavioral Science, 33,
Rak Pepe Seer ey nT aa
Pezdek, K., & Hodge, D., “Planting false childhood
memories in children: The role of event
plausibility.” Child Development, 70, 887-895.
CR isco arc atc ee och ons nde
Poole, D.A. & Lindsay, D.S., “Children’s eyewitness
reports after exposure to misinformation from
parents. Journal of Experimental Psychology:
pA Se) a ee ee ree
Poole, D.A. & Lindsay, D.S., “Interviewing
preschoolers: Effects of nonsuggestive techniques,
parental coaching and leading questions on reports
of nonexperienced events.” Journal of
Experimental Child Psychology. 60, 129-154.
CRs ys ca he Aah ended de eee sane
Page
10
16
10
10
vill
Cited Authorities
Qin, J., Quas, J., Redlich, A., Goodman, G.,
“Children’s eyewitness testimony: Memory
development in the legal context.” Nelson Cowan
et al (Eds.) The development of memory in
childhood: Studies in developmental psychology
(pp. 301-341). Hove, England UK: Psychology
Lg 22 reg renee Earner oe
Quas, J. A., Goodman, G. S., Bidrose, S., Pipe, M-
E., Craw, S., & Ablin, D. S., “Emotion and
memory: Children’s long-term remembering,
forgetting and suggestibility.” Journal of
Experimental Child Psychology, 72, 253-270.
Ee se ee os 8 5G ia a ee oes
Rawls, J., “How question form and body-parts
diagrams can affect the content of young children’s
disclosures.” Paper presented at the NATO
Advanced Study Institute, Recollections of
trauma: Scientific research and clinical practice.
Port de Bourgenay, France. (1996) ............
Rudy, L., & Goodman, G. S., “Effects of participation
on children’s reports: Implications for children’s
testimony.” Developmental Psychology, 27,
pg) Ee ree oe rec eee
Templeton, L. M., & Hunt, V., “The effects of
misleading information and level of authority of
interviewer on children’s eyewitness memory.”
Paper presented at the Society for Research
in Child Development, Washington, DC. (April,
ye 2 OT OR ee aD Pee Pe TLTIA? Cater see ey
Page
10
11
6,9
ix
Cited Authorities
Thompson, W. C., Clarke-Stewart, K. A., & Lepore,
S., “What did the janitor do? Suggestive
interviewing and the accuracy of children’s
accounts.” Law & Human Behavior, 21(4),
Co Se ere eer
Tobey, A., & Goodman, G. S., “Children’s eyewitness
memory: Effects of participation and forensic
context.” Child Abuse & Neglect, 16, 779-796.
| ES 2 eee
Walker, N., Lunning, S., & Eilts, J., “Do children
respond accurately to force choice questions?”
Paper presented at the NATO Advanced Study
Institute, Recollections of Trauma: Scientific
Research and Clinical Practice. Talmont Saint
Hilaire, France, June. (1996) .............4--
Welch-Ross, M., “Developmental changes in
preschoolers’ ability to distinguish memories of
performed, pretended, and imagined actions.”
Cognitive Development, 10, 421-441. (1995) ...
Page
1
At issue in the petition for certiorari submitted by Petitioner
James Krivacska is the question of whether this Court should
permit a defendant being tried on charges of child sex abuse to
be convicted on the strength of unreliable evidence and
unreliable science. In this case, Petitioner was convicted as a
result of uncorroborated reports made by two children whose
accounts of sex abuse were elicited during or after interviews
that employed suggestive questioning techniques known to
produce false and unreliable results. Petitioner's case is just one
of many in which children’s initial reports of abuse have been
exacted through such questioning, rendering the accusations
unreliable and the convictions that result therefrom,
untrustworthy. Because the outcomes in this case and in a host
of others rest on junk science and unreliable evidence, Scientists
Concermed for Reliability of Children’s Reports, Accusations
and Testimony write in support of a grant of certiorari.'
STATEMENT OF INTEREST OF THE AMICUS GROUP
This amicus group is comprised of many of the world’s
leading scientists and researchers in the field of the suggestive
questioning of children. The members of the group and a brief
description of their credentials are listed in Appendix A, attached
hereto.
Each member of the group has participated firsthand in
published peer-reviewed research designed to determine the
effects of suggestive questioning of children. Each has also
served as an expert witness to review the interviewing practices
1. Neither party participated in the preparation or financing of this
brief. Fees for the preparation and filing of this brief have been provided
by Howard Margolis, Ed.D.; Abigail and Christian Kjeldsen; John
Money, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Medical Psychology & Pediatrics;
Philip A. Shaver, LLB; Marty Klein, PhD, Human Sexuality; Mary
Katherine Hawryluk, PsyD; Laura Beider, PsyD; Marian C. Fish, PhD,
Sandra L. Harris, PhD; Rev. Louis V. Schwebius, M.Ed, M.Div.; Peggy
Brick, M.Ed; and Mark Koscinski, MBA, CPA, none of whom are
members of the amicus group.
2
of investigators who interview children and/or to provide
opinions to courts about their practices. Singly, and in
combination with their colleagues, these experts have reviewed
cases, testimony of other purported experts, and interviewing
techniques employed in jurisdictions all across the United States
— in state trial and appellate courts, and in federal habeas courts
and United States Courts of Appeal.
As has been true in many cases from around the country,
both the state and the defense experts in this case have identified
_the research and writing of the members of this amicus group
as the authoritative sources of scientific literature in the field of
suggestive questioning of children.
Thus, this Court has no more experienced or knowledgeable
pool of experts to whom to look for guidance, nor any group as
universally recognized for their authority in this area of science.
Moreover, this amicus group has no political agenda, no
economic stake in the outcome, nor any connection with
Petitioner. They come to this Court for the sole purpose of
ensuring that Petitioner, and others who are similarly accused,
are not convicted by evidence that has been rendered unreliable
through suggestive questioning nor by opinions rendered by
“experts” that have no scientific support.
The members of the amicus group offer their collective
knowledge to this Court because they are concerned that
important law and policy issues are being decided in the courts
on the basis, not of valid science, but of personal clinical
intuitions that have already been disproved in carefully designed
and controlled research studies. The amicus group is also
concerned that courts regularly confuse the reliability of
children’s reports with the credibility of the child making the
report.
Unfortunately, as research has amply demonstrated, there
is no correlation between a child’s credibility and the veridical
content of a report that child provides following suggestive
questioning. Nor are there discernible differences, such as
3
linguistic markers or other objective factors, with which one
can distinguish a report of a true event from a report of a false
event where the latter report results from suggestive questioning.
And because the child who has been affected by suggestive
questioning frequently comes to adopt as true the memories of
false events, the child is impervious to cross-examination in
court.
It, therefore, is critical in order to prevent the whole-scale
abandonment of the rights of one accused of child sex abuse,
that this Court demand that the state courts rigorously uphold
two constitutional standards: First, that evidence that is
untestable in the crucible of cross-examination be excluded from
the jury’s consideration as a violation of a defendant’s right to
confrontation; and second, that unreliable, unsupportable science
be rejected by the courts as a violation of fundamental due
process rights.
The amicus group addresses these issues in the following
order. The first subsection below contains an overview of the
research into suggestive questioning of children. Because the
Petition for a Grant of Certiorari contains a list and description
of the specific interviewing techniques shown to taint a child’s
memory, this amicus brief focuses on this issue of interviewer
bias, the single factor most likely to result in suggestive
questioning and, in turn, to generate false reports.
The second subsection addresses research findings that
children who make false reports as a result of suggestive
questioning are as credible in rendering these reports as are
children reporting about true events. This subsection also
addresses research that shows that the false reports themselves
contain no characteristics that enable someone to distinguish
them from reports of true events.
Interwoven through these first two subsections are responses
to two specific assertions made by Respondent’s “expert,”
Dr. Hall: (1) that these research findings have no bearing on
reports of salient, personal physical experiences such as sexual
4
abuse; and (2) that Hall herself has ways, developed through
her clinical insights, of determining that these two children’s
reports of abuse were not tainted by the suggestive interviewing
to which they were subjected. The responses of the amicus group
will demonstrate that Hall’s clinical intuitions — the intuitions
upon which the New Jersey state courts based their decisions
— are unscientific by their nature, are unsupported by science,
and had, in fact, been disproved by science.
In the final subsection, the amicus group discusses why
these issues are of such great public importance as to warrant
this Court’s certiorari review.
The Bias of an Interviewer Is Likely to Result in
Suggestive Questioning and, In Turn, to
Reports of Non-Experienced Events.
In the past decade, there has been an exponential increase
in research on the accuracy of children’s recall of their past and
on the factors that compromise the accuracy of their recall
(Ceci & Bruck, 1993; Qin, Quas, Redlich & Goodman, 1997).
In general, the results of this line of research indicate that
although children’s autobiographical recall is highly accurate
for a wide range of events, their reports can be greatly distorted
when they are obtained under suggestive interviewing
conditions.
While early studies tested the distorting effects of a single
leading question or single piece of misinformation, over the
past ten years, the focus has shifted to studying the effects of
suggestive interviews on the accuracy of children’s reports.
This shift was based on researchers’ concerns that the largest
suggestibility effects might be produced when children are
confronted with a combination of implicit and explicit
suggestive techniques that are woven into the fabric of the
interview. Accordingly, studies were designed to look at the
effects of interview techniques such as bribes, threats, and
repetitions of questions (Ceci & Friedman, 2000). In this context,
an interview is defined as a verbal interaction between at least
5
two participants where the goal is for one participant to obtain
information from another participant. In this sense, interviews
can be highly formal (e.g., police interrogations), informal and
unstructured (e.g., a mother asking her child about school), or
anything in between.
The concept of interviewer bias is a defining feature of
suggestive interviews. (Bruck & Ceci, 2001). Interviewer bias
characterizes those interviewers who hold a priori beliefs about
the occurrence of certain events and who mold the interview to
maximize disclosures that are consistent with those prior beliefs.
One hallmark of interviewer bias is the single-minded attempt
by an interviewer to gather only confirmatory evidence and to
avoid all avenues that may produce disconfirmatory evidence.
Thus, biased interviewers do not ask questions that might
provide alternate explanations for the allegations or that might
elicit information inconsistent with the interviewer’s hypothesis.
In addition, biased interviewers do not challenge the authenticity
of a child’s report when it is consistent with their hypothesis.
Even when children provide inconsistent or bizarre evidence, it
is either ignored or interpreted within the framework of the
biased interviewer’s initial belief. In contrast, when the child’s
statement is incongruent with what the biased interviewer
believes, it will be challenged or pursued with repeated questions
designed to align the child’s subsequent reports with the
interviewer’s initial beliefs. Biased interviewers are not restricted
to professionals who interview children; they can also include
parents, teachers and others who have an agenda when they
question children.
Interviewer bias has been shown repeatedly to influence
the accuracy of children’s reports (reviewed in Ceci & Bruck,
1995). In the typical study, children are asked by an interviewer
to recall a staged event. This interviewer intentionally conveys
a bias that is either consistent or inconsistent with what really
occurred in the staged event. In these situations, children often
make inaccurate reports that are consistent with the biased
interviewer’s scripts, biases, or beliefs (e.g., Leichtman & Ceci,
6
1995; Lepore & Sesco, 1994; Thompson, Clarke-Stewart &
Lepore, 1997). In contrast to their vulnerability to biased
interviewers, children’s reports are quite accurate when they
are questioned by unbiased interviewers, even if they are
occasionally asked leading questions, and even if they
are questioned after long intervals following the event
(e.g., Goodman & Aman, 1990; Rudy & Goodman, 1991).
Interviewer bias is reflected through a number of suggestive
techniques that influence the entire architecture of interviews.
As interview bias increases, so does the number of suggestive
techniques, and this in turn decreases the accuracy of children’s
reports.
In order to obtain confirmation of their suspicions, biased
interviewers may not ask children “open-ended” questions such
as, “What happened?” but instead resort to a barrage of specific
questions that contain information about the interviewers’
hunches. This strategy is problematic because children’s
responses to specific questions are less accurate than their
responses to open-ended questions. This finding has been
consistently reported since the beginning of the 19th century
(for review see Ceci & Bruck, 1993), and is highlighted in a
compelling study in which Peterson and Bell (1996) interviewed
children about a traumatic injury after an emergency room visit.
These researchers found that children were most likely to
accurately report the important details in response to open-ended
questions; however, their accuracy decreased substantially when
they were asked more specific questions (e.g., “Where did you
hurt yourself?” or “Did you hurt your knee?”). Specific
questions, which have the greatest risk of decreasing children’s
accuracy, include “yes-no” questions (Was it black?) as well as
forced choice questions (Was it black or white?) (See Brady,
Poole, Warren & Jones, 1999; Walker, Lunning, & Eilts, 1996).
Peterson and Grant (2001) concluded that yes-no questions are
the most problematic because children have a bias to produce
“yes” answers and rarely produce “I don’t know” responses to
these questions. This pattern reflects children’s efforts to provide
7
answers consistent with what they see as the intent of the
questioner rather than consistent with their knowledge of the
event (Ceci & Bruck, 1995, for a review).
When biased interviewers receive answers that do not
confirm their pet hypothesis, they repeat their questions, hoping
for a more consistent answer. And many children will change
their answers upon being asked a repeated question. Researchers
believe that the reason for this change is that the children assume
their first answer was incorrect, hence the need to repeat the
question.
Some interviewers convey their bias by providing
information about the alleged target events that the child has
not yet supplied (e.g., “Jason told me you were there when your
stepfather hit your sister.”), resulting in unreliable responses,
particularly after multiple interviews. For example, 5-year old
children received an inoculation from a pediatrician and one
year later were interviewed four times about the details of that
visit (Bruck, Ceci, Francoeur, & Barr, 1995). Children who were
repeatedly interviewed in a neutral, nonleading manner provided
accurate reports about the original medical visit, displaying high
levels of accuracy after a year long delay. In contrast, children
who were repeatedly given misinformation about the salient
details associated with the medical visit incorporated the
misinformation into their reports (e.g., they made false claims
that the inoculation was administered by a female research
assistant rather than the male pediatrician).
Interviewer bias may also be reflected by the “atmosphere”
of an interview. Sometimes, interviewers provide much
encouragement during the interview in order to put children at
ease by providing a supportive environment. Children’s
resistance to misleading questions increases when they
are questioned by warm, supportive, and neutral interviewers
(e.g., Carter, Bottom & Levine, 1996). However, encouraging
statements lose their impartial tone when there is selective
encouragement (reinforcement) for statements that are consistent
8
with the interviewer’s beliefs. For example, Garven, Wood and
Malpass (2000) asked children yes/no questions about a special
person who had visited their class one week earlier. Children
who were given positive feedback for following the
interviewer's lead (e.g., “Great”’) and negative feedback for not
following the lead (“You’re not doing well”) inaccurately
assented to over 40% of the misleading questions. In contrast,
children who were asked the same questions with no feedback
only provided inaccurate responses for 14% of the questions.
Peer pressure is another suggestive technique used by some
biased interviewers who try to obtain the child’s cooperation
by telling the child that his friends have helped or already told,
and that he should also tell, and/or that he will feel better once
he has told. Research dating as far back as 1900 show that
children can be swayed to give incorrect information about
an experienced event if they are provided with inaccurate
information about how other witnesses have responded. Binet
(1900) found that children will provide the incorrect answer of
the rest of the group rather than give their own perception of
reality. This effect is particularly pronounced when the peer
pressure is used in combination with other suggestive
questioning techniques.
Sometimes police or social service officials with high status
use some of these suggestive techniques alone or in combination
(Lamb, ef al., 1996). One of the difficulties in this situation is
the fact that children are much more likely to follow the
suggestions and leads of an interviewer who has high status
(and thus presumed credibility) (e.g., Lampinen & Smith, 1995;
Templeton & Hunt, 1997; Tobey & Goodman, 1992). In the
eyes of a child, even an unfamiliar interviewer who professes
knowledge about a target situation is accorded special status
(e.g., Ceci, Ross, & Toglia, 1987; Hembrooke, Toglia & Ross,
1991).
Guided imagery is another potentially suggestive
interviewing technique. Interviewers sometimes ask children
Galera heme Sin 9 89
it en BO OIE FEV a sg ATI PONG Ry ESE Sipe 8 OS, Gy Pv
9
to try to remember or pretend if a certain event occurred, to
create a mental picture of the event and to think about its details,
or to speculate about an event (“Well, how do you think you
would have felt if you did remember it happening to you?”’).
Under these circumstances, children may later come to report
and believe these imagined activities actually occurred. This is
because they sometimes do not distinguish memories of actual
events from memories of imagined events (e.g., Lindsay,
Johnson, & Kwon, 1991; Parker, 1995; Welch-Ross, 1995).
This hypothesis is supported by studies where young children
were repeatedly asked to think about real as well as imaginary
events, creating mental images each time they did so (e.g., Ceci,
Crotteau-Huffman, Smith & Loftus, 1994a; Ceci, Loftus,
Leichtman, & Bruck, 1994b). In one study, children’s assent
rate to false events increased over ten sessions. Moreover, even
when the children were told that the imagined events had not
happened, many continued to confirm their false statements,
insisting that they really occurred (Ceci, et al., 1994b). These
data suggest that some children believed that they had
experienced the imagined fictitious events.
Although the use of a single suggestive technique can result
in inaccurate reports, error rates can be low (e.g., Rudy &
Goodman, 1991). More robust suggestibility effects are obtained
when two or more suggestive techniques are combined in one
interview, as they often are in real life interviews such as the
ones conducted in Petitioner’s case. For example, Garven, et
al. (1997) interviewed children one week after a stranger visited
their daycare. Half of the children were asked leading questions.
The other children were also asked leading questions but in
combination with other suggestive techniques including peer
pressure (“The other kids said that . . .”), positive consequences
(praising certain answers), negative consequences (telling the
child that this was not the appropriate answer, and repeating the
question), enjoinders to think about questions to which they
had replied “no,” and enjoinders to speculate (tell what might
have happened). Children in the combined suggestion condition
10
accurately answered only 42% of the questions compared to an
accuracy rate of 83% for children who were just asked leading
questions. (Of course, it is worth remembering in the context of
a criminal investigation that even an accuracy rate of 83% can
be highly problematic.)
One might wonder whether young children’s suggestibility-
proneness is restricted to non-sexual matters that are largely
peripheral and non-salient.2 However, research amply
demonstrates that children are not merely suggestible about
peripheral details but also about central details that may involve
their bodies (Ceci & Friedman, 2000). At times, children’s false
reports can be tinged with sexual connotations. In laboratory
studies, young children have made false claims about “silly
events” that involved body contact (e.g., Did the nurse lick your
knee? Did she blow in your ear?), and these false claims often
persisted in subsequent interviews over a 3-month period
(Ornstein, Gordon, & Larus, 1992). Preschoolers assented to
suggestions that a doctor had cut out some bone in the center of
the child’s nose to stop the child from bleeding (Quas, et al.,
1999). Children have falsely reported that a man put something
“yucky in their mouth” (Poole & Lindsay, 1995, 2001), that
their pediatrician had inserted a finger or a stick into their genitals
(Bruck, Ceci, Francoueur & Renick, 1995), and that a man
touched their friends, kissed their friends on the lips, and
removed some of the children’s clothes (Lepore & Sesco, 1994).
Children have also falsely reported that someone touched their
private parts, kissed them and hugged them (Bruck, Melnyk &
2. On direct examination, the state’s expert in Petitioner’s case,
Kathryn Hall, adopted the Ceci and Bruck model for analyzing the
suggestiveness of the interviews to which the child complainants were
subjected in this case and deemed the interviews highly suggestive.
On cross-examination, Hall suddenly expressed skepticism about the
validity of the Ceci and Bruck model on the grounds that their research
could not necessarily be generalized to situations that involved sexual
matters or that were salient or central to their physical being. The studies
described above, however, demonstrate that such skepticism was
misguided.
11
Ceci, 2000; Rawls, 1996; Goodman, Bottoms, Schwartz,
Kenney & Rudy, 1991).
Suggestive interviews have also been shown to influence
children’s reports about emotionally charged or central events.
See Ceci, et al., 1994b.
Research Has Demonstrated that Children’s False Reports
Appear Credible to Adults, Even those Who Are
Trained Professionals.
Another matter that has been tested and written about
extensively in the suggestibility literature is whether children’s
false reports (1.e., those elicited through suggestive techniques)
appear credible to adults and, specifically, to trained
professionals. In some studies, trained professionals (e.g.,
judges, mental health workers, and lawyers) viewed videotaped
or transcribed segments of interviews with children, some of
whom had succumbed to interviewers’ erroneous suggestions,
and some of whom had not.
In one such large-scale study, children in a pre-school class
were told stories every day for a month about a clumsy man
named Sam Stone. At the end of the month, Sam (a confederate)
came to their classroom. He walked into the classroom, said
hello, walked around the classroom, said goodbye and then
exited. He did nothing else. The day after Sam Stone’s visit, the
children were shown a ripped book (the same one they were
reading when Sam came to visit) and a soiled teddy bear (that
had not been in the room during the visit.) The children were
asked if they knew how the book had gotten ripped or how the
teddy bear had gotten dirty. Thereafter, the children in the test
condition were given four suggestive interviews over a period
of ten weeks. Each suggestive interview contained two erroneous
suggestions, one having to do with the ripped book and one
having to do with the soiled teddy bear. Finally, one month later,
a new interviewer questioned the children about Sam Stone’s
visit. The new interviewer began by saying, “I wasn’t there the
day that Sam came to visit your classroom. Can you tell me
12
what happened?” The interviewer then asked, “Did anything
happen to a book? Did anything happen to a teddy bear?”
A significant percentage of children insisted, even after
being gently challenged, that they had seen Sam Stone rip the
book and do something to soil the bear. The most surprising
result was that these children’s reports were full of false
perceptual details, as well as nonverbal gestures, all provided
to embellish their stories of the non-events. For example,
children used their hands to show how Sam had thrown the
bear into the air; some children reported having seen Sam on
the playground, on his way to the store to buy ice cream or in
the bathroom, soaking it in water before smearing it with a
crayon.
These final interviews were videotaped and three of them
were shown to 119 researchers and clinicians (“judges”) who
worked in the area of children’s testimonial issues to see if these
professionals could discriminate between the erroneous and the
accurate reports. The three interviews they were shown were:
Child 1, who spontaneously gave a very elaborate account of
Sam coming into the classroom and tossing a doll into the air,
ripping a book, and soiling the teddy bear; Child 2, who was
soft-spoken and said that Sam only came into the classroom to
say hello and left without doing anything wrong; and Child 3,
who first said Sam had only come in and looked around, but
who, with some prompting, asserted elaborately and with
conviction that Sam had ripped one page of the book and painted
ice cream over a teddy bear. The judges were told simply that
the three children had been present when a man visited their
classroom and that all had witnessed the same visit.
Immediately after viewing all three tapes, the judges were
asked to rate the accuracy of particular statements made by the
children on a 7-point scale, ranging from “very confident that
the event did not occur,” to “very confident that the event did
occur.” In this study with these 119 judges and in subsequent
studies that used a total of 2300 professionals as judges,
13
Child 2 — who was the most accurate — was consistently rated
as the least believable, while Child 1 — who was the least
accurate — was consistently rated as the most believable.
In another study, children’s parents were interviewed to find
out about events that transpired at various times in their
children’s lives (e.g., moving, birth of younger siblings, vacation
trips; birthday parties; death of pets; injuries requiring stitches.)
Children were then interviewed individually, and provided with
alist of both real and fictitious (experimenter-contrived) events.
(The fictitious events were discussed with parents to ensure that
the child had never experienced them, such as riding with
classmates in a hot air balloon and getting one’s hand caught in
a mousetrap and having to get it removed at the hospital.) The
interviewer held index cards on which the real and fictitious
events were written and informed the child:
I am going to read some things that may have
happened to you, and I want you to think real hard
about each one of them that I am going to read.
Try to remember if it really happened. We made this
list up by talking to your mother and father to get
them to tell us about things that really happened to
you when you were younger, but not all of the things
I am going to read to you really happened.
Children were asked to try to recollect the events on 7-10
separate occasions, spaced on average 7-10 days apart. Ninety-
six children completed at least seven sessions. Fully a third of
them assented to false events by the end of the study.
As in the Sam Stone study, the final videotaped narratives
in this study (“Mousetrap 1”) reveal richly detailed, but false,
claims. In part, the children seem so convincing because they
insert affect at the appropriate points, they include low frequency
details, and they make spontaneous corrections to their stories.
The researchers then selected five fictitious events that were
reported by the children at their final videotaped interview, along
14
with 5 real events from the final interview. The researchers
showed these videotapes to 109 professionals in psychology,
law enforcement, social work, and psychiatry to see if they could
determine which events had actually been experienced by the
children and which had been fictitious. The 109 judges were
asked to rate on a scale their opinions as to whether each event
being recounted was true or false. The judges were not told
how many of the events were true or false, only that there were
some of each.
These professionals were terrible judges of the truth or
falsity of the narratives. As many professionals were reliably
worse than chance at detecting which events were real or
fictitious as the number who were at chance and above chance.
Similar results have been obtained in subsequent studies of the
same nature. (Ceci, Loftus,, et al., 1994)
In a very recent study, 251 undergraduate students watched
videotapes of 10 children who were interviewed about an
experience with a baby sitter that had happened one year
previously. The children were asked for a free narrative.
The children were then asked four leading questions and four
misleading questions. The children were also asked to select
the baby sitter from a photo array. At the end of their interview,
the children rated their own confidence in the accuracy of their
statements. After viewing the videotapes, the undergraduates
were asked to rate both the accuracy of each child and their
perception of each child’s confidence.
Two major findings emerged from this study. First, there
was no relationship between the child’s accuracy and the judges’
ratings of the child’s accuracy. Second, the judges’ ratings of
the child’s accuracy did correlate with ratings of the child’s
confidence. (Bottoms, Rucknick & Nysse-Carris, 2002).
Related research has shown that professionals do not agree
about the credibility of children’s claims of abuse even when
they were provided with extensive case material (Horner, Guyer
& Kalter, 1993).
15
There Are No Objective Markers that Distinguish
False From True Reports.
All of the above findings about children’s credibility were
based on the professionals’ subjective impressions. In a very
recent study, however, researchers asked if similar results would
be obtained with more objective measures. (Bruck, Ceci,
Hembrooke, in press). Thus, researchers took both true and false
reports that followed scripted suggestive interviews and carefully
counted and scored various linguistic markers that some
psychologists have asserted provide reliable indicators of the
truth or falsity of a child’s narrative. This study was highly
controlled so that the children providing the narratives were
asked not just about true events that had occurred in their lives,
but staged true events, so that the researchers would know
exactly what had transpired with these children. As in earlier
studies, researchers confirmed with parents that the false,
suggested events had never been experienced by the children.
(The two false events were that the child had helped a woman
find her monkey, which had escaped at the school, and that a
thief had come into the school and stolen food from the kitchen
before escaping down the stairs.)
Generally, the tabulated linguistic markers did not correlate
with the accuracy or falsity of the narrative given by these
children after they had been subjected to suggestive interviews.
Thus, contrary to the assertions of child care professionals who
believe they can accurately assess true from false statements
based on objective linguistic features of the narratives, no such
objective features consistently characterize true or false
statements.
Another experiment tested the hypothesis that a child who
accepts some suggestions will predictably accept all suggestions.
In this study, the children were asked suggestively about two
false events, reported to have occurred when they were four
years old. One event was chosen because of its plausibility (being
lost in a shopping mall), while the other was chosen because of
16
its implausibility (the child receiving a rectal enema.) While
the majority of children did not recall either event, a significant
number of the children “recalled” the plausible event but not
the implausible event. The importance of this study is that it
demonstrates that a child who accepts some suggestions may
nevertheless persistently reject other suggestions. (Pezdek,
et al., 1999).
In summary, assent rates, denial rates, and consistency of
children’s reports once they have been subjected to suggestive
questioning provide no basis for systematically distinguishing
between children’s reports of true events from children’s reports
of events that never happened at all. (See also Brady, et al,
1999 in which consistency and answers to suggestibility check
questions were not predictive of performance.)’
The Assertions of the State’s Expert in the Case at Bar
Typify the Misinformation and Bad Science Being
Accepted by the Courts, Resulting in Convictions
Based on Unreliable Reports of Abuse and
Unreliable Science.
In the case at bar, the state’s expert, Dr. Kathryn Hall,
acknowledged that the two child complainants had been
subjected to highly suggestive interviews. She reached this
conclusion, according to her own testimony, by examining the
interviews in light of the Ceci and Bruck model. (Drs. Ceci and
Bruck are two of the signatories to this brief.) Hall then asserted,
nevertheless, that she could tell, based on her clinical intuitions,
that the two child complainants had not succumbed to the
suggestive questioning. She based her opinion on a checklist of
factors that consisted of: the consistency of the children’s reports
3. These research results directly contradict the assertions made
by Kathryn Hall that she could tell that the children in this case were
telling the truth because they consistently denied that they had performed
fellatio on the defendant, despite such suggestions having been made to
them by interviewers.
17
once the interviewing process had begun‘; the fact that the
children supplied details that had not been specifically suggested
to them; the fact that the children denied having any form of
oral sex with the Petitioner, despite such events having been
suggested to them; and the fact that the children corrected
“erroneous” statements made to them.
The decision of the New Jersey Appellate Division accepted
this line of reasoning as valid, despite its lack of scientific
support. (Hall herself acknowledged that her opinions were
based solely on her clinical intuitions and that she had no
scientific support for them.) Thus, the problem here was two-
fold — 1) that the state expert provided testimony that was totally
erroneous, which led the trial court to admit statements by the
child complainants that lacked any basis of reliability, and 2)
that the state courts adopted unsupported, disproven clinical
intuitions over valid, research-supported science. As a result,
Petitioner was convicted on the basis of unreliable evidence,
admitted on the basis of unreliable science.
This problem arises with regularity in child sex abuse
litigation.* There is no lack of people who have a great deal of
experience as clinicians and who testify that their clinical
intuitions are superior to, and should trump, the extensive peer-
reviewed controlled scientific research in this field.
4. Hall also attributes her reliance on consistency of reports to the
Ceci and Bruck model. Her reliance reflects a serious misunderstanding
of their writings. The consistency that they deem noteworthy is
consistency of reports of abuse made from before the time the suggestive
interviewing began, not the consistency of reports that emerges after the
child has been subjected to suggestive questioning. As in the legal
analysis of reports made by a witness subjected to hypnosis, the pre-
hypnosis reports are considered reliable and may continue to be deemed
reliable even if they are also made during hypnotic sessions.
5. This is not to suggest that this problem is present in all child sex
abuse cases but that neither is this case unique. As noted earlie:, each of
the signatories to this brief has been involved in one or more cases, in
jurisdictions throughout the United States, where these issues have arisen.
18
At the same time, many courts seem to lack direction on
how to evaluate science. These courts also lack an adequate
understanding of the distinction between the reliability of
children’s reports and the credibility of the child while making
that report. The testimony of the clinicians only helps to blur
these distinctions.
As aresult, many courts wind up focusing their assessments
of reliability on the content of the child’s report, rather than on
the methods that produced the child’s report in the first place.
Unfortunately, because there is no element of a child’s report
that will identify whether it is true or false once the child has
been subjected to suggestive questioning, using that report as
the defining factor can only result in the admission of unreliable
evidence.
Accordingly, the focus of the court’s inquiry must begin
with, and remain with, the type of questioning to which the
child was subjected before making accusations of abuse.
The Issue Presented to this Court For Certiorari Review is
One of Significant Public Importance, Requiring a
Determination by this Court, to Provide Direction
to Trial Courts Throughout the United States.
Child sex abuse prosecutions engender more publicity, more
anger, and more societal protectiveness than perhaps any other
form of criminal litigation. With good reason, no one wants
children to be victimized by sexual predators.
The prosecution of these cases can be difficult. There are
rarely eyewitnesses to acts of sex abuse. There is rarely physical
evidence of the abuse. The case often rests on the accusations
of a child.
At the same time, charges of child sex abuse are among the
most difficult to defend against. There is simply no way to prove it
did not happen. Just as the lack of physical evidence makes
these cases difficult to prove, the fact that sexual abuse can be
committed without leaving any physical evidence means that the
absence of such evidence is rarely considered an exonerating factor.
19
This case, and others like it around the country, present a
real challenge to the strength of the commitment of the courts
to protect the constitutional rights of defendants to confront the
witnesses against them and to be tried and convicted only by
reliable evidence, even when the alleged victims are children.
Because of the natural impulse to want to protect vulnerable
victims, the response of some judges has been to err in favor of
the children by relying on unscientific principles and by allowing
unreliable evidence to be considered by juries. This response,
however well-intentioned, flies in the face of constitutional
safeguards that have previously been articulated by this Court.°
If protections granted to defendants by the Constitution are to
be relaxed or recast in child sex abuse cases, such a decision
should come only at the direction of the United States Supreme
Court and only after careful and deliberate consideration. These
decisions should not be made in the haphazard and inconsistent
fashion they are currently being rendered in trial courts across
the country.
And the underpinning for any decision made by this Court
ought to be sound science and valid research, conducted in
controlled settings and available for scholarly review and
critique. It should not rest on the private clinical intuitions or
observations of an individual practitioner or idiosyncratic
theories that have neither been tested nor examined in the glare
of peer review.
6. Idaho v. Wright, 497 U.S. 805, 110 S. Ct. 3139 (1990); Ohio v.
Roberts, 448 U.S. 55, 66, 100 S. Ct. 2539 (1980); Manson v. Brathwaite,
432 U.S. 98, 97 S. Ct. 2243 (1976); Lee v. Illinois, 476 U.S. 530, 106 S.
Ct. 2056 (1986); Neil v. Biggers, 409 U.S. 188, 196-197, 87S. Ct. 1967
(1967); United States v. Wade, 388 U.S. 218, 87 S. Ct. 1926 (1967);
Stovall v. Denno, 388 U.S. 293, 87 S. Ct. 1967 (1967); Foster v.
California, 394 U.S. 440, 89 S. Ct. 1127 (1969); White v. Illinois, 502
U.S. 346, 112 S. Ct. 736 (1992); Rock v. Arkansas, 483 U.S. 44, 107
S. Ct. 2704 (1987).
20
CONCLUSION
For the foregoing reasons, Scientists Concerned for
Reliability of Children’s Reports, Accusations and Testimony
believe that this Court should consider the question presented
in Mr. Krivacska’s petition for certiorari review so that this
issue can be decided finally and uniformly as this Court has
previously addressed issues concerning suggestive photo
identifications, suggestive line-ups, and the use of hypnosis on
state witnesses. This amicus group asks this Court to speak again
on the need to base convictions on reliable research and reliable
evidence. The alternative is for our courts to be governed by the
tyranny of disproven intuition and junk science.
Respectfully submitted,
Amy GERSHENFELD DONNELLA
Attorney for Amicus Curiae
310 Chamounix Road
St. Davids, Pennsylvania 19087
(610) 341-9566
This is a copy of a public record, reproduced as it was published. It is not legal advice, and it may not be the version a court would rely on. Check the official source before you cite it.