Appendix — Wise v. Lipscomb

Supreme Court brief1978

Ask Donna

What actually matters in this document.

Text

-_— aA

APPENDIX

In The

Supreme Court of the United States

OCTOBER TERM, 1977

77-329

WES WISE, Mayor of the City of Dallas, Et A,

Petitioners,

vs.

ALBERT L. LIPSCOMB, Et AL.,

Respondents.

ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES

COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT

PETITION FOR CERTIORARI FILED OCTOBER 7, 1977

CERTIORARI GRANTED JANUARY 9, 1978

SRR IE EI ocvcvlcdccccedcecescceseccdcce 1-3

Relevant Pleadings and Motions

. Plaintiffs’ (Respondents’) Second Amended

SE Sn cbdek HORESh EE bb ecdeecdcecccccsess 5

Defendants’ (Petitioners’) First Amended

ET dn otecéncodusoddnccesesecccsece 13

° Application for Intervention and Complaint .......... 18

Plaintiffs’ Motion to Alter or Amend Judgment ...... 153

Intervenors’ Motion for Further Relief.............. 164

Excerpts from Transcript of Testimony

TOTO GE GIRS wo cccccccdccccccsccesccess 29

Testimony Of George Alem ....ccccccccccccccsececs 29

Testimony Of Pedro Aguirre ..... ccc cccccccccccccce 45

Testimony of Onesimo Hernandez .................. 55

FORO GEE WUT Sc vce ccvccccscdcsccccesene 59

Testimony of George Schrader .................245- 65

Testimony of Roosevelt Johnson, Jr. ................ 66

Testimony of Adlene Harrison ...................4. 68

Testimony Of Dam Weiter... 2c cccsccccccccccseccecs 69

Testimony of Robert Medrano ..................4.. 83

Testimony Of Lois Bacon .....cccccccccccccccccces 117

PEER EE oc cc cccdacccaccescessee 117

Testimony of Albert L. Lipscomb .................. 118

I CSiGacecacecaceedpecccevs 119

Relevant Findings, Orders and Opinions

Order on Application for Intervention ............... 26

Memorandum Opinion of the District Court ......... 121

Judgment of the Court of Appeals.................. 167

Opinion of the Court of Appeals ..................4. 168

Order of the Court of Appeals on Denial

ETE: PRES ne a 178

Order of the Court of Appeals on Denial of Stay

Pending Application for Writ of Certiorari ........ 180

Order of Circuit Justice Granting Stay of Mandate .... 181

Opinion of Circuit Justice On Granting Stay

‘. SP Kee sbacechuddertbsessacvonsensccts 182

Charters, Resolutions and Ordinances

Charter of the City of Dallas, 1931 ................. 188

Charter of the City of Dallas, 1931,

SOE TUTE bch cccdsoceveséusccccccccccees 188

City of Dallas Resolution Number 75-0207 .......... 188

City of Dallas Ordinance Number 14800°............ 189

RELEVANT DOCKET ENTRIES

March 10, 1971:

March 19, 1971:

March 27, 1971:

March 29, 1971:

May 22, 1972:

June 19, 1972:

September 14, 1972:

January 15, 1974:

Filed Complaint.

Filed Defendants’ motion to dismiss.

Filed memorandum decision that all relief.

prayed for by Plaintiffs should be denied,

this action is hereby dismissed at Plain-

tiffs’ cost.

Filed Plaintiffs’ notice of appeal

from order of this Court entered March 27,

1971, denying all relief requested and dis-

missing Plaintiffs’ suit.

Filed certified copy of judgment issued as

mandate from Court of Appeals: “It is now

here ordered and adjudged by this Court

that the judgment of said District Court in

this cause be, and same is hereby vacated;

and this cause be, and the same is hereby

remanded to the District Court for pro-

ceedings not inconsistent with the opinion

of this Court; it is further ordered that De-

fendants-Appellees )Hon. Erik Jonsson, et

al) pay to Plaintiffs-Appellants the costs

on appeal to be taxed by the Court of

Appeals.”

Filed Defendants’ Wes Wise, Ted Holland,

Doug Fain, Anita Martinez, Sheffield

Kadane, Jerry Gilmore, Fred Zeder, Gary

Weber, Lawrence Ackels, Russell Smith

and George Allen answer to the amended

bill of complaint.

Filed Plaintiffs’ first amended complaint,

and adding additional party Plaintiffs.

Filed second amended complaint, includ-

ing Rule 23 allegation.

February 15, 1974:

February 20, 1974:

July 16, 1974:

December 9, 1974:

Filed Defendants’ motion to dismiss named

party Plaintiffs.

Filed Defendants’ first amended original

answer.

Filed application for intervention as Plain-

tiff of Adelfa B. Callejo, Trini Garza, Gil-

bert A. Hernandez, Onesimo Hernandez,

Rene Martinez, Sam Moreno, and Floren-

tino Ramirez.

Filed Order: “Application for intervention

filed July 16, 1974 is denied with the spe-

cific right granted to the intervenors, in the

event the present at-large system is held

to be unconstitutional, to participate in

the manner directed by this Court, in any

hearing or discussions before this Court

concerning the remedy to be adjudged; it

is further ordered that this aciion will

proceed as a class action representative

of a class of all black citizens within the

City of Dallas; Plaintiffs are adequate to

represent members of the class; that Plain-

tiff Lipscomb is a member of the class

defined herein; and that any attempt to

represent himself as an individual would

result in the same delay and difficulty as

set out hereinabove and it is the specific

finding of this Court that the questions of

law and fact presented herein are common

to all members of the class and predomi-

nate over any question affecting only indi-

vidual interests of members, and that a

class action is superior to other avail-

able methods in the fair and efficient

adjudication of this controversy.”

January 24, 1975:

March 25, 1975:

April 3, 1975:

April 11, 1975:

April 16, 1975:

May 22, 1975:

June 10, 1975:

June 20, 1975:

Filed certified copy of Dallas City Council

resolution dated January 20, 1975 with

letter from N. Alex Bickley, City Attor-

ney, to Judge Mahon. Map attached.

Filed memorandum opinion.

Filed Intervenors’ motion for further

relief.

Filed Plaintiffs’ motion to alter or amend

the judgment of the Court.

Filed Plaintiffs’ notice of appeal.

Filed Intervenors’ notice of appeal to the

Fifth Circuit from the order of March 25,

1975.

Filed judgment that the relief set forth in

the Court’s memorandum opinion of

March 25, 1975 be in all respects granted.

Filed Plaintiffs’ notice of appeal to the

Fifth Circuit, from the judgment entered

on May 22, 1975.

Filed notice of appeal by Intervenors from

the judgment entered on May 22, 1975.

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

DALLAS DIVISION

CIVIL ACTION NO. CA-3-4571-A

Albert L. Lipscomb, Lovie M. Lipscomb, Judith Lott, Elsie Faye

Heggins, J. B. Jackson, Alvin Stoneham, Jr., Johnny Hughes

Everett, Carl Williams, Shirley Harvey, Geraldine Walker,

Joyce Williams, Bill Stoner, E. A. Shively, Dr. Eugene Dorsey,

Pancho Medrano, Louis Estrada, Mary Salazar, Thelma Wash-

ington and Francis Harris, individually and on behalf of all

others similarly situated,

Plaintiffs

vs.

The Honorable WES WISE, Mayor of the City of Dallas, Mr.

GEORGE ALLEN, Mayor Pro Tem of the City of Dallas;

RUSSELL B. SMITH, member of the City Council of the City of

Dallas; JERRY C. GILMORE, member of the City Council of

the City of Dallas; GARY WEBER, member of the City Council

of the City of Dallas; LUCY PATTERSON, member of the City

Council of the City of Dallas; CHARLES H. STOREY, member

of the City Council of the City of Dallas; PEDRO AGUIRRE,

member of the City Council of the City of Dallas; CHARLES

TERRELL, member of the City Council of the City of Dallas;

ADLENE HARRISON; member of the City Council of the City

of Dallas; and their successors in office,

Defendants

SECOND AMENDED COMPLAINT

JURISDICTION

1. The jurisdiction of this Court is invoked pursuant to Title 42

United States Code, Sections 1971, 1981, 1983 and 1988 and Title

28 United States Code, Sections 1331, 1343, 220. and 2202 this

being an action in which citizens of the United States contend

they have been, are now, and threaten to continue to be denied

rights, privileges and immunities secured by the Constitution of

the United States under the Equal Protection Clau e of the

Fourteenth Amendment, the right to vote under the Fifteenth

Amendment, and thereby are denied their civil rights as citizens

of the United States. This is further an action pursuant to Rule

23, Fed. Rules Civ. Proc.

2. This is a proceeding for permanent injunction enjoining

Defendants, and each of them their agents, employees and

successors from carrying out elections for municipal office in the

City of Dallas, specifically, elections for the City Council of

Dallas, in a manner which constitutes a dillution of racial

minority voting strength, and as such, a denial of the right to

vote, in contravention of the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amend-

ments to the Constitution of the United States.

3. This is further a proceeding for a declaratory judgment,

pursuant to Title 28, Sections 2201 and 2202, to determine and

define the legal rights and relations of Plaintiffs in the subject

matter of this controversy and for a final adjudication of all

matters in actual controversy between the parties to this cause.

PLAINTIFFS

4. Plaintiffs are Albert L. Lipscomb, Lovie M. Lipscomb, Judith

Lott, Elsie Faye Heggins, J. B. Jackson, Alvin Stoneham, Jr.,

Johnny Hughes Everett, Carl Williams, Shirley Harvey,

Geraldine Walker, Joyce Williams, Bill Stoner, E. A. Shively,

Dr. Eugene Dorsey, Pancho Medrano, Francis Harris, Louis

Estrada, Mary Salazar, and Thelma Washington. All individual

Plaintiffs are citizens of the United States and the State of Texas,

residing in the City of Dallas, Texas. Individual Plaintiffs all

reside in the geographical area known hereinafter as the “racial

minority community”.

5. Plaintiffs also sue as representative parties on behalf of a class

of black and brown citizens who reside in the racial minority

community. Such representation is proper because the class is so

numerous that joinder of all members is impracticable; virtually

all questions of law and fact are common to the class; the claims

of Plaintiffs are typical of and identical to the claims of the class;

and the Plaintiffs fairly and adequately protect the interests of

the class. Moreover, Defendants herein have acted or refused to

act on grounds generally applicable to the class, thereby making

appropriate final injunctive relief and corresponding declaratory

relief with respect to the class as a whole.

DEFENDANTS

6. Defendants are Wes Wise, Mayor of the City of Dallas,

George Allen, Mayor Pro Tem of the City of Dallas, Russell B.

Smith, Deputy Mayor Pro Tem of the City of Dallas, Adlene

Harrison, member of the City Council of the City of Dallas, Mrs.

Lucy Patterson, member of the City Council of the City of

Dallas, Pedro Aguirre, member of the City Council of the City of

Dallas, L. A. Murr, member of the City Council of the City of

Dallas, Jerry Gilmore, member of the City Council of the City of

Dallas, Charles Storey, membe-s of the City Council of the City of

Dallas, Charles Terrell, member of the City Council of the City of

Dallas, and Gary Weber, member of the City Council of the City

of Dallas.

7. The Defendants have solely within their control the power to

revise the boundaries of any or all of the eight electorial districts

to maintain a substantial equality of population, and the power

to alter the present election scheme to conform to established

principles of law.

CAUSE OF ACTION

8. Acting under color of the autority conferred upon them by the

laws of the State of Texas and the Charter of the City of Dallas,

tne Defendants have adopted and are presently pursuing a plan,

policy and practice in which all qualified voters of the City of

Dallas are entitled to vote for one candidate for City Council in

each of eleven places on the ballot. The Charter requires that the

City be divided into eight (8) districts known as Districts 1, 2, 3, 4,

5, 6, 7 and 8 and that no person is eligible as a candidate for any

one place unless he is at the time a bona fide resident of such

district; i.e., 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 respectively. [Charter of the

City of Dallas, Chapter IV. Section 5 and Section 6] The Charter

further requires that a candidate for Place Numbers 9, 10 or 11

may be a resident of any portion of the City.

9. There exists in the City of Dallas a community known as the

“racial minority community” or “the community” which is

essentially an unbroken bank from the western edge of the City of

Dallas through the central business district including the Fair

Park area, and South Dallas, then due south to the City limits.

This community is predominately inhabited by members of the

black (African-American) and brown (Mexican-American)

racial minorites. This community, besides being racially

definable, has certain social, economic and political interests

which differ from those of the white (Anglo-American) majority.

10. Long years of systematic oppression, discrimination,

enforced poverty, and political neglect have deprived the

residents of the racial minority community of the rightful

rewards of citizenship in the City of Dallas. The residents of this

community seek to cause the City Council of the City of Dallas to

become more responsive to specific areas of grievance and

dissatisfaction with the policies and practices controlled by the

City Council of the City of Dallas.

11. Under the current system of selection of Members of the City

Council, the racial minority community has virtually no political

force, influence or control over Members of the City Council,

because the effect of their vote is cancelled out by other well-

established and hostile interest groups in other areas of the City

of Dallas inhabited by the white (Anglo-American) majority.

12. Under the current system of electing members of the City

Council of Dallas, Texas through at-large elections, residents of

racial minority community areas which are racially identifiable

and economically identifiable have little or no opportunity to

participate in the political process of nomination or election of

candidates other than such minimal opportunity as is accorded

the poor black or brown citizen through the benevolence of the

dominant white citizenry of the City of Dallas, Texas. These

denials, based as they are on race, and/or concomitant social,

economic and political factors, result in a denial of the right to

effective sufferage to black and brown citizens and are thus

denials of the equal protection of the law and of the due process

of law as guaranteed to Plaintiffs as secured to them by the

Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

13. The requirement that all candidates for election to the City

Council of Dallas, Texas run at-large places an insurmountable

and unconscionable burden on economically insecure black or

brown candidates who are forced to compete against an excep-

tionally well financed political machine, or power structure, with

the ultimate result that only those black or brown candidates who

are able to secure the blessings of the dominate white citizens

group are accorded meaningful participation in the electoral

process. Absent such blessing, any political campaign launched

by a black or brown candidate under the at-large system is

fordoomed. This results in a denial to the right of meaningful

participation in the right to sufferage and is thus a denial to

Plaintiffs of the equal protection of the law of due process of law

as is secured to them by the Fourteenth Amendment to the

Constitution of the United States.

14. Permitting all residents of the City of Dallas to vote on the

candidates, within which the racial minority community is located

has the invidious effect of dilluting the vote of the residents living

in that community, therefore denying complainants equal

protection of the laws in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment

to the United States Constitution.

15. Plaintiffs, and members of the class they repicsent, have

continually and persistently petitioned Defendants to voluntarily

discontinue the discriminatory practice of diluting racial

minority voting strength by means of the at-large election

scheme. However, defendants have wuiolly failed and refused to

comply with Plaintiffs’ request. Moreover, defendants have

persisted in litigating this cause on the merits in spite of the legal

precedent pointing to the futility of such litigation. Such

continued litigation of the merits of the claim constitutes

unreasonable, obdurate obstinancy, which defeats the

congessional policy, embodied in the statures set forth in the first

paragraph of this compiaint. Therefore, plaintiffs seek herein an

award of reasonable attorney’s fees, and all costs.

WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs respectfully pray:

A. That a hearing be had and evidence heard to determine

whether the electoral scheme now in question has the invidious

effect of causing the votes cast in the racial minority community

to have a force and effect in elections to municipal office of the

City of Dallas inferior to the force and effect of the votes cast

generally by the inhabitants of the City of Dallas, as to constitute

dilution ot racial minority voting and as such, be a denial of equal

protection of the law and a denial of the right to vote in

contravention of the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments to

the Constitution of the United States.

B. That at the conclusion of said hearing a permanent injunction

be granted against all defendants requiring them to refrain from

conducting any elections for City Council of Dallas, Texas until

such time as the present at-large voting scheme is discarded and

the City of Dallas is redistricted into individual member voting

districts, drawn so as not to have any foreseeable effect of

dillution of racial minority voting strength.

C. That the Court retain jurisdiction over this matter and issue a

final order approving any apportionment plan for the City of

Dallas before the 1975 elections are held.

D. That Plaintiffs be awarded a reasonable attorney's fee, as well

as all costs incurred in this litigation.

E. That the Court issue any further relief that it deems just and

reasonable.

Respectfully submitted,

Dallas Legal Services Found., Inc.

912 Commerce St., Room 202

Dallas, Texas 75202

742-1631

Sylvia M. Demarest

Edward B. Cloutman III

Mullinax, Wells, Mauzy & Babb

8204 Elmbrook Dr. #206

Dallas, Texas 75247

214/630-3672

James A. Johnston

Johnston & Dixon

106 So. Austin St.

Dallas, Texas 75202

214/742-3847

Walter L. Irvin

Hudson & Irvin

555 Griffin Square, Suite 908

Dallas, Texas

214/744-1431

CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE

This is to certify that a true and correct copy of the Second

Amended Complaint, Plaintiffs Motion to File Second

Amended Complaint and Substitute Party Defendants and

Order has been hand delivered to Mr. Alex Bickley, attorney

for Defendants on this the 8th day of January, 1974.

/s/ Sylvia M. Demarest

SEE EEE EEE EEE EE EEE EEE EEE EEE EERE EE EEE ES

Sylvia M. Demarest

Dallas Legal Services Found., Inc.

912 Commerce St., Room 202

Dallas, Texas 75202

742-1631

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

DALLAS DIVISION

CIVIL ACTION NO. CA-3-4571-E

Albert L. Lipscomb, et al.

vs.

The Honorable Wes Wise, Mayor

of the City of Dallas, et al.

FIRST AMENDED ORIGINAL ANSWER

TO THE HONORABLE JUDGE OF SAID COURT:

The Defendants make the following Answer to Plaintiffs’

Second Amended Complaint:

Defendants deny the allegation of Paragraph | of Plaintiffs’

Second Amended Complaint wherein Plaintiffs allege that this

Court has jurisdiction of the subject matter of this action and

further deny the allegations of that paragraph that Defendants

have denied Plaintiffs any rights, privileges or immunities

secured by the Constitution or laws of the United States or that

Defendants are now denying or threaten to deny to Plaintiffs any

rights, privileges or immunities secured by the Constitution or

laws of the United States. Defendants deny the allegations of

Paragraph | of Plaintiffs’ Second Amended Complaint that this

is a proper class action under Rule 23 F.R.Civ.P.

Il.

Defendants admit the allegation of Paragraph 2 of Plaintiffs’

Second Amended Complaint that this is a proceeding for

permanent injunction, but Defendants deny that Plaintiffs have

stated a claim upon which any injunctive relief can be granted

and deny that the Defendants or any system of eleciions of the

City of Dallas have caused a dilution of racial minority voting

strength or any denial of the right to vote in contravention of the

Fourteenth or Fifteenth Amendments to the Constiiution of the

United States.

Ill.

Defendants admit the allegations of Paragraph 3 of Plaintiffs’

Second Amended Complaint that this is a proceeding for a

declaratory judgment pursuant to Title 28, Secs. 2201 and 2202,

but deny that Plaintiffs have stated any claim upon which such

declaratory relief can be granted.

IV.

Defendants are without knowledge or information sufficient

to form a belief as to the truth of the allegation of Paragraph 4 of

Plaintiffs’ Second Amended Complaint that all individual

Plaintiffs are citizens of the United States and of the State of

Texas, residing in the City of Dallas, Texas, or that individual

Plaintiffs all reside in the geographic area described by Plaintiffs

as the “racial minority community.”

Defendants deny the allegations of Paragraph 5 of Plaintiffs’

Second Amended Complaint that the class representation sought

by Plaintiffs is proper and deny that the class isso numerous that

joinder of all members is impracticable, deny that virtually all

questions of law and fact are common to the class, deny that the

claims of Plaintiffs are typical of and identical to the claims of the

class, deny that Plaintiffs fairly and adequately protect the

interests of the class, deny that Defendants have acted or refused

to act on grounds generally applicable to the class and deny that

the injunctive or declaratory relief sought by Plaintiffs is

appropriate to the alleged class as a whole.

VI.

Defendants admit the allegations of Paragraph 6 of Plaintiffs’

Second Amended Complaint.

VII.

Defendants admit the allegation of Paragraph 7 of Plaintiffs’

Second Amended Complaint that Defendants have solely within

their control the power to revise the boundaries of any or all of

the eight electoral districts to maintain a substantial equality of

population. Defendants deny the allegation of Paragraph 7 of

Plaintiffs’ Second Amended Complaint that Defendants have

solely within their control the power to alter the manner in which

the City Council is elected.

VIII.

Defendants admit the allegations of Paragraph 8 of Plaintiffs’

Second Amended Complaint.

IX.

Defendants are without knowledge or information sufficient

to form a belief as to the truth of the allegations of Paragraph 9 of

Plaintiffs’ Second Amended Complaint.

Defendants are without knowledge or information sufficient

to form a belief as to the truth of the allegations of Paragraph 10

of Plaintiffs’ Second Amended Complaint, deny that Plaintiffs

are being deprived of the rightful rewards of citizenship in the

City of Dallas and say that the City Council of the City of Dallas

is properly responsive to the needs of all citizens and areas of the

City of Dallas.

XI.

Defendants are without knowledge or information sufficient to

form a belief as to the truth of the allegations of Paragraph 11 of

Plaintiffs’ Second Amended Complaint and deny that any

person is deprived of full participation in the political system of

the City of Dallas by virtue of any act of any of the Defendants or

by virtue of present system of elections.

X11.

Defendants are without knowledge or information sufficient

to form a belief as to the truth of the allegations of Paragraph 12

of Plaintiffs’ Second Amended Complaint and deny that the

present system of at-large elections deprives any citizen of the

opportunity to participate in the process of. nomination or

election of candidates to the City Council of the City of Dallas or

that it denies effective suffrage to any citizen.

XIIL.

Defendants deny the allegation of Paragraph 13 of Plaintiffs’

Second Amended Complaint that the present at-large system of

elections places any insurmountable or unconscionable burden

upon any citizen or that such system results in any denial of the

rights of meaningful participation in the political process.

XIV.

Defendants are without knowledge or information sufficient

to form a belief as to the truth of the allegations of Paragraph 14

of Plaintiffs’ Second Amended Complaint.

XV.

Defendants deny the allegations of Paragraph 15 of Plaintiffs’

Second Amended Complaint.

Respectfully submitted,

N. Alex Bickley, City Attorney

T. Alex Eastus, Ass’t City Attorney

Joseph G, Werner, Ass’t City Attorney

Lois Bacon, Ass’t City Attorney

501 Municipal Building

Dallas, Texas 75201

748-9711, Ext, 294

By Lois Bacon

CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE

A copy of the foregoing First Amended Original Answer was

served on Sylvia A. Demarest, Dallas Legal Services, Inc.,

Edward B, Cloutman, III, Mullinax, Wells, Mauzy and Babb,

James A, Johnston, Johnston and Dixon, and Walter L. Irvin,

Hudson and Irvin, Attorneys for Plaintiffs, by placing it in a

depository of the United States Mail with sufficient postage

attached thereto on this the 15 day of February, 1974.

Lois Bacon

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

DALLAS DIVISION

CIVIL ACTION NO. CA-3-4571-E

Albert L. Lipscomb et al.

VS.

Erik Jonsson et al.

APPLICATION FOR INTERVENTION

TO THE HONORABLE JUDGE OF SAID COURT:

Adelpha B. Callejo, Trini Garza, Gilbert A. Hernandez,

Onesimo Hernandez, Rene Martinez, Sam Moreno, and

Florentino Ramirez, pursuant to Rule 24(a)(2) and Rule 24(b)(2)

of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, moves for leave to

intervene as a Plaintiff and become a party to this action for the

purposes and with all the rights provided by said Rule 24(a)(2)

and Rule 24(b)(2), in order to assert the claim set forth in their

proposed complaint of which a copy is hereto attached, on the

grounds that;

Applicants are so situated that the disposition of the main

action may as a practical matter impair or impede their ability to

protect that interest they have in the final disposition of this

matter.

Il,

Applicants’ interests are not adequately represented by the

existing parties.

Ill,

This is a class action brought by Applicants pursuant to Rule

23(a)(3) of the Federa! Rule of Civil Procedure, on their behalf

and on behalf of other Mexican-Americans seeking to declare

unconstitutional the at large election system presently utilized by

Defendant, City of Dallas.

IV,

Applicants are charged with a public duty to intervene and

have more than a mere general interest in the outcome of this

litigation, in that, the final disposition of this litigation will affect

Applicants, in the class they represent, at the electoral process

which is used to select public officials to serve as councilmen with

Defendant, City of Dallas.

Vv.

Applicants have a claim against Defendant similar to or

identical with that asserted by Plaintiff in this matter.

Vi.

Applicants’ claim and the main action have common questions

of law and fact.

VIL.

The participation of Applicants as a party to this action will

materially aid in the expedition and determination of this action

and will not delay or prejudice the adjudication of the rights of

the original parties. Applicants should be allowed to intervene as

a member of the heretoforementioned former class represented

by other Mexican-Americans who did not adequately represent

the interest of Applicants and the class they represent.

WHEREFORE, PREMISES CONSIDERED, Applicants

pray that the Court immediately hear this Application for Inter-

vention, and that after consideration of the facts and the law on

said matter, enter an Order allowing Applicants to intervene.

Respecifully submitted,

Hernandez, Inc.

Frank P. Hernandez

UCC Tower, 2nd Floor

Dallas, Texas 75247

630-3683

Callejo and Callejo

William F. Callejo

902 Fidelity Union Life Building

Dallas, Texas 75201

741-6711

CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE

This is to certify on the _. day of July, 1974, a true copy of

the foregoing Application for Intervention was served upon

counsel for the parties noted below by delivering to them

personally a copy of said Application for Intervention.

Ms. Sylvia Demarest

Dallas Legal Services Project

Attorney for Plaintiff

Edward B, Cloutman

Mullinax, Wells, Mauzy & Babb

Attorney for Plaintiff

Alex Bickley Esq.

City of Dallas

Attorney for Defendant

Frank P. Hernandez

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

DALLAS DIVISION

CIVIL ACTION NO, CA-3-4571-E

Albert L. Lipscomb et al.

vs.

Erik Jonsson et al.

INTERVENOR’'S COMPLAINT

1. ,

The Plaintiffs adopt and incorporate the allegation in

Paragraph I. of Plaintiffs Original and Amended Complaints.

Il,

These Plaintiffs bring this action on their own behalf, and on

behalf of other Mexican-Americans seeking equal representation

in the election process of the City of Dallas councilmen. These are

common questions of law and fact affecting the rights of

Mexican-Americans in the aforestated group and class who are

and have been discriminated against in ways which deprive and

tend to deprive them of equal opportunity to represent and be

representatives as councilmen of the City of Dallas, and whose

rights are otherwise affected in their opportunity to become

elected representatives of the citizens of the City of Dallas. These

persons are so numerous as to make it impractical to bring them

all before this Court. However, a common relief is sought and

these Plaintiffs are an adequate representative of the said class.

Ill.

This is a proceeding for a preliminary and permanent

injunction and to have ordinances of the City of Dallas declared

unconstitutional,

IV,

Plaintiffs are Mexican-American citizens of the United States,

the State of Texas, and the City of Dallas.

Defendant, City of Dallas, is a non-profit governmental

agency with its main place of business !ocated in the City of

Dallas, County of Dallas, Texas, Main and Harwood, Dallas,

Texas.

Vi.

All matters regarding the election of City Councilmen of

Defendant, the conditions of the election, and the methods by

which individuals are elected, have been and at all times material

to this action, are governed and controlled by the City Charter of

the City of Dallas, exclusively, and by the Defendant, City of

Dallas, and its elected representatives, the Mayor and the City

Councilmen representing the citizens of said City.

Vil.

Plaintiffs and the class they represent are fully qualified to

represent the said class and are qualified voters of the City of

Dallas.

VILL.

Plaintiffs and the class they represent have no plain, adequate,

or complete remedy at law to redress the wrongs alleged herein

and this suit is their only means of securing adequate relief.

Plaintiffs and the class they represent are now suffering and will

continue to suffer irreparable injury from the Defendant's

policies, practices, customs and usages unless said laws and

activities are declared unconstitutional and violative of the law.

IX.

Plaintiff would show the Court that they have been

discriminated against because of their national origin and have

been deprived participation in the electoral process of selecting

and electing representatives of Defendant to serve as councilmen

and that such denial has been caused by the actions of the

Defendant and its supportive groups. Plaintiff would further

show that they have been denied their constitutional rights to

elect and select representatives to serve as City Councilmen

because of the unconstitutional at large election system utilized

by Defendant for selecting City Councilmen, and that this

discrimination is expressed in the form of the at large election

system which is presently used by said Defendant to elect its

rc presentatives. Plaintiff would show that as a class M: <ican-

Americans are denied respective participation in said process

because of their national origin and further because they do not

have the necessary economic ability to participate in at large

elections effectively in order to be able to select their

representatives.

Plaintiff would show the Court that they are an identifiable

minority group which exists within the boundaries of the

Defendant City of Dallas, that they have been recognized as said

identifiable minority group, and that as a class they have been

discriminated against because of their national origin and their

inability to participate effectively in the electoral process.

WHEREFORE, PREMISES CONSIDERED, Plaintiffs re-

spectfully pray this Court to advance this case on the docket,

order a speedy hearing at the earliest practical date, order this

case to be in every way expedited and upon such hearing to:

Grant Plaintiffs and the class they represent a preliminary

and permanent injunction enjoining the Defendant, City of

Dallas, its agents, successors, employees, attorneys and

those acting in concert with them and at their discretion

from continuing with policies, practices, customs, usages of

denying, abridging, withholding, conditioning, limiting or

Otherwise interfering with the rights of Plaintiffs and others

Similarly situated to enjoy equal opportunity to participate

in the electoral process in the election of representatives and

the councilmen of the Defendant, and;

further, that this Court declare those provisions of the City

Charter of the City of Dallas which provide for election of

City Councilmen on an at large basis unconstitutional; and

further, that this Court order that a new form of electing

representatives to the City of Dallas as City Councilmen be

implemented by said Defendant so that the rights,

privileges, and guarantees of Mexican-Americans will be

protected and so that they will have an effective electoral

voice in the selection and election of representatives as City

Councilmen to the City of Dallas.

Allow for Plaintiff-Intervenor for costs herein, and such other

additional relief as may appear to this Court to be equitable and

just.

Respectfully submitted,

Hernandez, Inc.

Frank P. Hernandez

UCC Tower, 2nd Floor

Dallas, Texas 75247

630-3683

Callejo and Callejo

William F. Callejo

902 Fidelity Union Life Bldg.

Dallas, Texas 75201

741-6711

CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE

Ms. Sylvia Demarest

Dallas Legal Services Project

Attorney for Plaintiff

Edward B. Cloutman

Mullinax, Wells, Mauzy & Babb

Attorney for Plaintiff

Alex Bickley Esq.

City of Dallas

Attorney for Defendant

Frank P. Hernandez

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS

DALLAS DIVISION

CIVIL ACTION NO. CA 3-4571-E

Albert L. Lipscomb, Et Al.

VS.

Mayor Wes Wise, Et Al.

ORDER

On this 9th day of December, 1974, came on to be resumed the

hearing of the above-entitled and numbered cause, but prior to

any further action in the case certain motions pending were

considered by the Court, to wit:

1. Application for Intervention filed by Mr. Frank P.

Hernandez and Mr. William F. Callejo on July 16, 1974, and

2. The Motion to Sever Individual Plaintiff as Class

Representative and Motion to Withdraw as Counsel as filed on

July 31, 1974, by named counsel for plaintiffs.

It appeared that on the initial filing of this lawsuit on the 10th

day of March, 1971, there were included as plaintiffs members of

the Mexican-American Class and the action was on behalf of all

the minority groups including the Blacks and Mexican-

Americans who live within the City of Dallas. The defendants

sought to elicit written interrogatories from all of the plaintiffs.

Certain of the plaintiffs refused to respond to the interrogatories

and upon contact by their counsel continued to refuse to respond.

Included in this group were all of the Mexican-American Race

originally included as plaintiff in the lawsuit.

Upon motion duly made and hearing had the Court dismissed

from the lawsuit all of those members of the plaintiff's class who

refused to respond to written interrogatories. Included within

this group were all of those of Mexican-American descent.

Prior to the entry of this Order the plaintiffs had amended their

pleadings by their Second Amended Original Complaint and

included in the Amended Complaint were both the Black and

Brown citizens of Dallas. However, counsel determined that after

all of the Mexican-American plaintiffs were dismissed and

having no individual Mexican-American plaintiff that they could

no longer represent the Mexican-Americans as a class and there-

fore urged the Court to consider this a class action with the class

being those Black citizens residing within the City limits of the

City of Dallas.

After a portion of the case had been presented to the Court and

the trial had been commenced and recessed, the intervenors filed

their motion on July 16, 1974, for the purpose of intervening on

behalf of the Mexican-American citizens in the City of Dallas.

The testimony previously presented to this Court shows that this

class represents approximately 8% of the population of the City

of Dallas, and the housing pattern is such that they are spread

throughout the city limits of Dallas and are not a predominant

factor in any concentrated census tract groups, and in view of

these facts, the Court is of the opinion that to allow the

intervention at this time would result in many difficulties in the

management of this case as a class action and it would result in a

delay that would possibly take the case beyond the time of the

City Counsel election and the time that candidates need to file

their candidacy. Moreover, the Court is of the opinion that to

permit this intervention at this late hour would not assist the

Court in resolving the issue of the constitutionality of the present

at-large system. In view of these findings it is the Order of the

Court that this intervention is denied with the specific right

granted to the intervenors, in the event the present at-large

system is held to be unconstitutional, to participate in the manner

directed by this Court, in any hearings or discussions before the

Court concerning the remedy to be adjudged.

It is further ORDERED that this action will proceed as a class

action representative of a class of all Black citizens within the

City of Dallas, and that the Plaintiffs named herein are adequate

to represent the interest of the members of the class. With regard

to the issue of the status of the individual member of the class,

Mr. Albert Lipscomb, it is the finding of this Court that he is a

member of the class defined herein, and that any attempt to

represent himself as an individual would result in the same delay

and difficulty as set out hereinabove and it is the specific finding

of this Court that the questions of law and fact presented herein

are common to all members of the class and predominate over

any question affecting only individual interests of members, and

that a class action is superior to other available methods and the

fair and efficient adjudication of this controversy.

Entered this 9th day of December, 1974.

/s/ Eldon B. Mahon

FEE EEE EEE EEE EEE EEE EEE EE ETE eee eee eee eeeee

United States District Judge

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

VOLUME IX

[4 1.1] THE COURT: Good morning. All right, the Court is

ready to proceed with the second portion of the hearing concern-

ing the Civil Action No. CA-3-4571 entitled Lipscomb and others

versus Wes Wise, Et Al.

This phase of the hearing will relate primarily or entire'y to the

remedy that the court has heretofore declared that the present

system of the at-large election of city council to be unconstitu-

tional. The purpose of this hearing is now to —

The Court, of course, gave the city an opportunity — afforded

the city an opportunity as a legislative body for the City of Dallas

to prepare a plan which would be constitutional. The hearing will

proceed at this time on the plan to determine the constitutionality

of the new proposed plan by the City of Dallas.

[6 1.7] GEORGE ALLEN,

having been previously cautioned and sworn, testified further as

follows, to-wit:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. BICKLEY:

Q_ Allright. You're Mr. George Allen, the Mayor Pro Tem of

the City of Dallas, are you not?

A Yes, I am.

Q_ All right. And at the time that that was adopted by the city

council, did the city council, to your certain [7] knowledge give

any directions as to how the lines were to be drawn insofar as

color or ethnic groups or anything else was concerned?

A_ No, sir.

Q Did they give any instructions that the districts were to be

as nearly equal as possible?

A They did.

a? oe

Q. All right. Did the city council at that time look at the other

plans and discuss them and talk about them and have open

hearings and have people come before city council and talk

[8] about them?

A We indeed did. And we did an awful lot of talking about

our own plans without avail, of course, but yes, we did.

. 2 -@

Q_ All right. Now, would you tell the Court from the view-

point of yourself and of the group that you represent, and for the

record, what is your race?

A Obviously black.

Q_ All right. And would you tell the Court why, in your

opinion, if it is your opinion, that there should be three members

elected at-large in addition to the single member districts?

— ae

[9 1.20] A 1 think that three at-large places are most im-

portant because, number |, there is no way you can draw district

lines in Dallas without seriously gerrymandering them, to be able

to carve out whether it’s three, nine, two, ten, one, eleven, zero,

and again to a Mexican-American being elected. He has to have

the benefit of at-large voting. There are many blacks, for [10]

instance, that don't live in the predominatley — the two pre-

dominately black districts as currently drawn, that in the judg-

ment of our community would make outstanding representa-

tives on the Dallas city council. They live in small pocxets like

many Mexican-Americans do. They live in small pockets in far

North Dallas, in East Dallas, in the Love Field area and on —

scattered all over the city.

I don't believe that these people should be summarily and auto-

matically out of consideration by their community for a place on

the council as their representative. They could very well be a

candidate at large and stand a very good chance to win.

*- * *

Q All right. Now, in the consideration insofar as zoning cases

are concerned, do you see any benefit to the city as such in having

people elected at-large or some elected at-large?

A Well, I don’t know if it’s a major benefit. 1 can see that

obviously people elected from single member districts will give

strong consideration in the best possible representation to their

fellow councilmen to defend their particular [11] district in a

zoning case.

I think the at-large people on the council will — should con-

ceivably have a broader view of zoning and a broader interest in

zoning. I think it would certainly work better than having eleven

single member districts, for instance.

Q_ All right. If you had eleven single member districts, you

would actually have some minorities, whether white, black,

brown or red, in each district that would never get an opportunity

to vote on and to elect a person of their choice, isn't that so?

A Oh, I believe that, but you have got some districts that

there are no blacks or browns in.

Q Some in which there are just very few?

A Yes. Well, like far North Dallas, Northeast Dallas, | doubt

whether you can scare up two black families in the whole district

or maybe more than one Mexican-American family.

Q And unless they get to vote on somebody at-large, they

really don’t have a vote at all, do they?

A That is exactly what I was saying.

* * *

{13 1.16] But the planning is done pretty well city-wide, on a

citywide basis.

* * *

[14] Q All right. And then, does it, to your mind — impor-

tant or is it not important, is it or is it not important that there be

somebody looking at the overall situation in order to help make

those decisions?

A I think three at-large members is a desirable thing for

balance, overall balance. This, I testified to before.

Q All right. And then, in spite of the fact that it is not the

exact one which you wanted, did you say that so far as the City of

Dallas is concerned, do you think this is the best plan for the City

of Dallas?

A Oh, I think the eight-three plan is without a doubt the best

plan.

* * *

Q Mr. Allen, I take it from your testimony and from your

prior testimony in this matter and your deposition in particular

that you are for single member districts?

AI certainly am. | testified as a witness for the plaintiffs and I

made up my own mind in answering each question, sir.

*- * *

{15} Q So that your opinion is that the City of Dallas needs

single member districts?

A That is right.

;

[161.19] Q Okay. And so this plan, Defendant's 92, in fact,

does utilize the same lines the City of Dallas has used prior to this

time for the residency requirement or place requirement in the

at-large system?

A That is right.

Q. Those districts haven't changed a bit, then, as far as you

can tell?

A That's right.

*. + ©

[12] Q (By Mr. Cloutman) Do you understand, then, from

the figures as they have been explained to you regarding this map

and these numbers that there will be two predominately black

districts provided by Defendant's 92 and 92-A?

A If these are the figures that relate to those lines, yes.

Q. That is how they were offered, | assume.

A Yes, okay.

*_ * *

[19] Q And under your eight-three plan, if I recall, or at least

under the eight-three plans you have discussed both at trial and at

your deposition, your eight-three plan would have provided

strong majority black districts in at least three council districts?

A Right.

Q_ And possibly a fourth in a coalition with Mexican-Ameri-

can voting?

A That is right.

Q And I believe you testified in your deposition that such a

plan was a kind of eight-three you wanted to see city adopt?

A That is right.

Q All right. That would then be significantly, or it would be

at least one place more than this one currently offers and possibly

two?

A That is right.

{26 1.9] Q Councilman, under your proposed eight-three,

there would be at least three safe minority seats and possibly

four?

A Right.

Q Would that increase the chances for the kind of combina-

tions that you seek?

A Surely.

That would be better, in your opinion?

Surely.

Than the one presented to the Court here today?

Oh, yes. That is why ] tried to get it adopted.

Q Councilman, also for the record, I believe it has been

established that you are one of the three black council persons on

the city council presently, and I believe it also has been estab-

lished that you have been backed in each of your elections by the

Citizens’ Charter Association?

A That is right.

Q_ Each one you have been successful.

> O > 6

[27] Do you see any difference, Councilman, in the affect, this

cight-three proposed to the Court will have in terms of effectuat-

ing minority interests, implementing minority interests within the

City of Dallas and the one that you propose that would elect three

and possibly four minority candidates?

A Just that difference, that the present system permits us a

guaranteed two black representatives, unless one chooses to run

at-large and is elected. But my plan would guarantee a minimum

of three black community and the Mexican-American communi-

ty and the poor white community working together, which |

don't have that hope, but it is possible.

i oe

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. HERNANDEZ;

Q Councilman, can we agree that the single member district

is desirable, that it gives the people the opportunity to vote direct-

ly for their representative?

[28] A_ Yes, that is one of the reasons.

Q_ And can we also agree that the smaller the district is, that

the better chance a particular minority group is of having their

vote counted?

A If the minority population of that district is sufficiently

substantial. A small district with a smaller black population, for

instance, if the percentages will not change, wouldn't help us at

all. But the percentage of blacks in a given district would be the

determining factor, so far as I see it.

Q Or as to Mexican-Americans?

A Yes, right.

[29] Q Those two black representatives that would most

likely be elected, would in your mind, would you think that they

would represent or purport to represent the Mexican-American

community?

A_ In the absence of a Mexican-American on the council, |

think they would fill it incumbant upon them to represent the

minorities. But if you're elected from practically all black dis-

tricts, of course, you feel that your loyalty has to be to those

people who elected you first.

Q_ So actually there are then two positions that would be

available for the Mexican-American at-large?

A True.

Q And in order to get one of these positions, he would [30]

have to be in the good graces of the Citizens’ Charter Association,

would he not?

A If — if future elections will go as the pattern that has been

established in the past, | would say yes.

Q You have no reason to believe that they are going to

change, have you?

A Well, I haven't thought much about it one way or the

other.

Q_ Well, in effect, what the eight-three plan does —

A No. Any strong slating group, when you say CCA, I say

any strong slating group, the Mexican-American would have to

have the blessings of it to be able to win at-large.

Q_ Well, based on all the prior testimony in the case, the

Mexican-American as @ potential candidate is in no different

position than the black American as a potential candidate in

order to be a city councilman, is he?

A Right now?

Q_ Right now.

A You're right.

Q All right. So if the argument is made that in order for a

black American to be on the council now, he must be in the good

graces of the CCA or be tied with the slating group, then that

argument holds true for the Mexican-American?

A | agree.

Q_ Under the eight-three plan, the black American, then, gets

[31] some relief from that argument, does he not?

A He certainly does.

Q But the Mexican-American does not?

A That is right. But I don’t know of a district plan that can be

drawn that will give a majority of the population to the Mexican-

American because you're doing what I wish we had done, live all

over the city, we wouldn’t have to worry about a lot of the ills

right now that we are worrying about. Since we are not — then I

just don’t know of a plan, Frank, that we can draw, unless we do

and you have — well, I don’t know even if we gerrymander that

we'll get a majority of Mexican-American districts.

Q Well, let me ask if the city — if the present city council

attempted in any way to look at the seventeen, zero system or the

twenty, zero.

THE COURT: Look at a what?

MR. BICKLEY: If it please the Court, we object to —

THE COURT: I didn’t understand the question.

MR. BICKLEY: Seventeen, zero system.

THE COURT: He can ask him the question.

MR. BICKLEY: All right. Note our exception to far-afield

Court drawing plans at this point.

MR. HERNANDEZ: Your Honor, Mr. Allen has testified

in terms of his eight-three, in terms of the adopted eight-three.

[32] THE COURT: I understand. | just didn’t understand

what you said.

Q. (By Mr. Hernandez) All right. In its consideration of com-

ing up with this adopted eight-three plan, did the city consider a

plan that these single member districts that guaranteed a

Mexican-American a position on the council?

A_ No, Sir.

Q Gave it no consideration at all?

A Well, when I said no consideration, the one Mexican-

American who is on the council has repeatedly said that there is

no way they can draw a district that will guarantee them a repre- —

sentative of the council from single member districts.

Now, whether there is a way or not, I don’t know. But, no, we

didn’t give consideration to it.

> * *

[33] Q (By Mr. Hernandez) I was merely asking if the city

council considered whatever it would take in order to make a

plan constitutionally viable as pertains to the Mexican-American

community.

A_ It did not come up.

Q Allright. Now, in effect, as you mentioned a moment ago,

what the Mexican-American or the Chicano in Dallas has done is

that he has assimilated into the population into the City of

Dallas?

A Yes, sir.

Q_ And as a result, he is in effect going to lose representation

on the council for doing that?

A Well, I don’t know that he will or not. If we have three at-

large slots, I don’t know that he’ll lose an opportunity to have a

place on the council or not, Frank, I really don’t.

Q_ Well, he’s still tied to the CCA in order to get one of those

at-large spots?

A Well, one of the at-large districts could have very well

provided a Mexican-American a place on the council, if the

proper working agreement with the black community could

inure.

Q_ Well, as a practical, political matter, who do you contract

with in order to get that guarantee for the Chicanos?

————— ss =

A Well, I think when you say “contract with,” I think [34] it

should be a natural for blacks and Mexican-Americans to work

together because they are both in the same — well, no, you're not

quite in the same position I’m in because we are at the bottom of

the totem pole, but — well, that is the cost of assimilation, see?

They kept us in our little Ghetto area and we couldn’t break out,

the laws kept us from breaking out. You were white, you could go

anywhere, Frank. And the result is, now you can have your cake

and eat it, too.

Q_ Well, the problem, isn’t it, Councilman, is that we are

white in terms of Chicano’s being white for some purposes but we

are not really white-white; isn’t that the problem?

A Well, I don’t know too much about the different shades of

white. I mean, I know black and white and brown and red.

Q_ Well, you know that — and I think the Court is well aware

— that if you put blacks and Chicano’s together in a district, that

is still a minority district.

A Right.

e * *

[351.11] Q Well, let’s talk about that just for a second in light

of the Citizens’ Charter Association and the manner in which it

has handled that at-large district.

Traditionally, Districts 9 and 10 have gone to different parts of

the city, have they not, one to North Dallas and one to Oak Cliff?

MR. BICKLEY: May it please the Court, we object to going

back into any other testimony back as — being the same testi-

mony we took up in the lawsuit as to whether or not the present

system is constitutional. This is what we are getting back into

now. We object to it.

THE COURT: We don’t want to go back into that. I’m inter-

ested in the constitutionality of this plan that is already proposed.

I wasn’t quite sure, Mr. Hernandez, what your question was.

[36] MR. HERNANDEZ: My question, Your Honor, along

that line, pertains only to Chicano’s. And perhaps not being in-

volved in the initial stage, I don’t think that there has been very

much testimony pertaining to the Chicano and the Citizens’

Charter Association. I stand corrected if there has been.

THE COURT: All right. Well, now, what is your question?

MR. HERNANDEZ: The question is, that the Citizens’

Charter Association has traditionally considered the two at-large

spots 9 and 10 on a geographical basis, one for Oak Cliff and one

for North Dallas. And when the Chicano’s got Place 9, in effect,

the Citizens’ Charter Association took away Oak Cliff's seat in

order to accommodate the Chicano, is that not correct?

THE WITNESS: I thought —

MR. BICKLEY: Just a moment, Mr. Allen.

Your Honor, do I understand, has the Court ruled on my

objection to this question that goes to this question?

THE COURT: I'm going to overrule the objection on that.

MR. BICKLEY: Note our exception.

MR. HERNANDEZ: Thank you.

THE COURT: Of course, the thing that the Court’s having

problems with, the law doesn’t guarantee to anybody, [37] the

Court decisions say this, that you can, white or browns or blacks

or reds, they are not guaranteed anything. They are just — the

only thing the Court’s looking at is that they are guaranteed equal

access ability, the opportunity. That is what the law — that is

what the Court’s got to look at. And that is what we are looking at

here from a constitutional standpoint. I mean, as to whether —

you know, you're going to get into all kinds of things, Scandina-

vians or Jewish people or just anybody can say, well, I'm guar-

anteed one because we are different. But what the law says is that

everybody is guaranteed access, accessability, the opportunity to

get in, into the matter. So this is the problem that the Court is

having with all this.

MR. HERNANDEZ: Your Honor, I am operating under the

assumption that this Court has recognized that Mexican-

American or Chicano’s are an identifiable racial minority.

THE COURT: Yes. And the Courts have held this, that’s right.

*- * *8

{39} Q You are familiar with the Citizens’ Charter Associa-

tion endorsement and selection process?

A Iam familiar with the CCA endorsement of me and the

ticket that they sponsored over the last three elections. But their

procedures, no, I’m not. I’ve never been on a CCA board, either

for endorsements or selection or anything else.

Q_ Do you know of any Mexican-American or Chicano who

has ever run for city council that has won without Citizens’ Char-

ter Association endorsement?

A_ No, no.

Q_ Let me ask you a final question or two.

Dallas is the eighth largest city in America, I believe?

A Yes, sir. ,

Q_ And you know that Baltimore is the seventh largest city?

Do you know that Baltimore has nine hundred and six [40]

thousand residents and has nineteen council members?

A_ No. I really don’t.

s- * e

Q (By Mr. Hernandez) Let me ask you, Mr. Allen, is there

any guarantee that the Citizens’ Charter Association will in the

future continue to look with a favorable light on Chicano’s as it

has in the past three or four years?

A Frank, you know I can’t answer that. Now, that would be

pure speculation. I don’t have an; — I don’t have the slightest

reason to know what they are going to do in the future.

Q_ That is the main reason that you want single member dis-

tricts that guaranteed black representation?

A Right.

Q Would it not be unreasonable for the Chicano’s to want

single member districts that would guarantee brown representa-

tion?

A_ Not at all.

[41] Q _ This plan doesn’t do that, though, does it?

A_ I don’t know of any plan that will. No, this plan probably

would not.

[461.18] Q My question then to you is: Hadn’t CCA support

been required for the at-large success of minority candidates for

city council?

A Certainly. I testified to that earlier.

Q_ And that would be true for Mexican-Americans as well as

the black candidates who ran at-large?

A Im sure of that. The evidence shows that.

Q_Is there any reason to believe that without that [47] sup-

port that a new candidate to run — a new minority candidate

could run for a city council office and succeed?

A Under at-large system?

Q_ Yes, sir.

A_ Oh, no, I don’t believe he can.

[51 1.10} RECROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. HERNANDEZ: .

Q Councilman, looking at the lines that generaily white

voters voting patterns in the past have tended to support white

candidates and black voters, black candidates, is it a fair state-

ment to say that is true for the brown community, brown voters

generally support brown candidates?

A_ I would think so. I really don’t know, but | would think so.

Q Now, this eight, three plan that was submitted and voted

on, Councilman Pedro Aguirre, he voted against that eight, three

plan, did he not?

A He did.

* * e

[531.21] MR. HERNANDEZ: I was merely trying to point out

the problem that the Chicano community finds itself in under this

plan.

THE COURT: Yes. I recognize this is one of the questions, as I

said in conference with the attorneys this [54] morning, this is

one of the serious questions confronting this Court in this stage of

the proceeding, is the Chicano’s interest. I mean, you’re diluting

either way probably with regard to the Chicano’s. | mean, I can

certainly see this.

MR. HERNANDEZ: I have no further questions.

7. «+ *

[61 1.5] Q (By Mr. Hernandez) One was in terms that last

week the members of the Chicano community did present them-

selves before the city council and attempted to discuss the eight-

three plan or any other plan, did they not, do you recall that?

A Right.

Q_ I believe that Mayor Wise told them that they were in the

wrong forum, that they needed to be down here in the courthouse

rather than at the city council?

A That's right. Because we had already submitted our plan.

Q_ In fact, when you submitted your plan, there was quite a

bit of discussion over how quickly that was done.

A Well, the Judge put it on our minds that he wanted it

quickly. I don’t think that we — not too quickly for the Judge for

his purpose.

Q_I think the first vote was five in favor of the plan, two

against the plan and four abstaining. And it wasn't until the city

attorney instructed the council that you must vote that the plan

then passed six to five.

A Well, Frank, I really don’t remember that. All I remember

is that we did get a majority vote on the eight, three, [62] and we

went with it. Because that is the only vote that is significant, that

is the only vote that goes into the record.

* * .

[641.21] Q (By Mr. Cloutman) Councilman, isn’t it also true

that prior to today, several persons who were named plaintiffs in

this lawsuit, including Thelma Washington, Phil Stoner and Al

Lipscomb appeared before the council to request the council's

adoption or consideration of an all single member district plan,

[65] or at least, a ten, one plan?

A Last Monday.

Q_ How about prior to that?

A_ No, last Monday. We didn’t have a public hearing before

then.

Q_ Right. That is my point. You didn't allow persons before

the vote was taken on this eight, three to testify as to what plans

they would prefer, you held this in closed session, did you not?

A_ No, no, it wasn't a closed session, indeed it was not. You

have got to understand that when a councilman is elected, he

obviously is elected to make decisions that he thinks are in the

best interest of the community. And that is what we addressed

ourselves to.

The Court asked us to come forth with a plan quickly.

Q Yes, sir.

A And he didn’t order us to hold a public hearing on it. We

felt we knew how the people felt about it.

Q. That is correct.

A Or I never would have been a plaintiff for the — I meana

witness for the plaintiffs if | hadn't thought the majority of the

people I represented wanted single member districts.

Q My point is, there were no public hearings conducted be-

fore you voted on the eight-three plan now presented to the

Court?

A January 20th is when we voted on the resolution. We still

haven't voted on an ordinance.

[70 1.8] PEDRO AGUIREE,

having been duly cautioned and sworn, testified as follows,

to-wit:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. BICKLEY:

>. * ®*®

Q_ And are you an elected city councilman?

A Yes, I am.

Q_ In the City of Dallas?

A Yes, | am.

Q_ And how long have you been on the city council of the City

of Dallas?

A Since April of °73.

° oe 6

[71] Q And what is your race?

A I'ma Mexican-American,

Q Now, Mr. Aguiree, the plan as submitted doesn’t guaran-

tee of a slot on city council, does it?

A_ It does not.

Q_ And what is your opinion insofar as the necessity in the

City of Dallas considering the living pattern of the Mexican-

American a to whether or not we should have some at-large

spots?”

A Mr. Bickley, “my position has been constant throughout

my tenure of office, in that | have always believed that it was in

the best interest of the Mexican-American community to have a

combination plan.” I've never made a statement as to which com-

bination was the most appropriae for the Mexican-Americans.

[72] I have voted on various plans, or rather on two different

occasions in the council chamber, merely as a reaction of the

alternatives that were presented, and “I am firmly convinced that

a combination plan of some sort would best serve the interest of

the Mexican-American.”

* * *

Q_ We have just had, though, and looked at several different

possibilities to see whether or not a continuous composite district

could be drawn for Mexican-Americans, have we not?

A We have talked about it in general terms, but I've never

seen any alternatives other than the one that I see on the board

now, except for a ten, one plan that was mailed to me some

months ago, and that is the only other plan that | have seen.

[73] Q Well, did the ten, one plan have a district that would

be what we would call a safe district for a Mexican-American?

A_ No, sir.

Q_ Have you seen any plan that anybody has come up withto

this point that would actually do that?

A No, sir.

Q The Mexican-Americans represent a very important seg-

ment of our community, do they not?

A Well, we certainly think so.

Q There are many others who think so, also.

Approximately 8 percent of the population in Dallas is

Mexican-American, is it not, or do you know?

A Well, I've heard 8 to 10 percent, depending on whether

you're buying or selling.

Q Somewhere between 8 and 10 percent then?

A Yes, sir.

Q_ Allright. And out of that — and those people live through-

out the City of Dallas, do they not?

A Yes, sir.

Q_ They are pretty well spread. They are not in one area clus-

tered in one area, are they?

A Weare pretty well as we'd like to be, but we are spread out.

*-_ * *

{78 1.23] Q All right. The at-large is really their only chance

or choice to really get elected, isn’t it?

A Well, if we are going to limit ourselves to the [79] two

alternatives that we have discussed, the answer to that would be

yes. I'm not sure that it is the only alternative.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. HERNANDEZ:

* * *

Q You indicated that you have always favored a combina-

tion plan in that the plan that was presented you voted [80]

against, did you not?

A Yes, | did.

Q | would like to review for you briefly how it came to be that

you got to be the Citizens’ Charter Association endorsed candi-

date to get on the council, and ask you first, ifin your opinion you

could have won the seat without being endorsed by the CCA?

A Well, the question — the answer to the second question is,

obviously, no, | couldn't have been elected without that endorse-

ment and support.

* * *

[811.5] Q Let me interject and ask you, people that presently

represented all segments of the Chicano community for the most

part?

A | think you could say they represented the brown com-

munity from all, not only in terms of political philosophy, but

geographical because they were there, because | was out of town

at the time. But | do know that there were over 65 people because

that is the report that | had.

Anyway, there was some other meetings, and I don’t know how

many, some of which I participated in, again at the First Mexican

Baptist Church, As I recall, there were seven candidates came

forward to be interviewed by the endorsement committee of the

CCA. | was one of those seven.

It was agreed between all those that participated at those meet-

ings in the brown community that whoever the candidate —

whatever candidate was selected by the CCA, that we would all

support that candidate to make — give him or her the best possi-

ble chance to succeed in the general election. And there were two

candidates selected. There was an alternate. | was the candidate

selected originally. The alternate was Sam Oeraneo.

* * *

[82 14] Q Is it your opinion that the only way that a

Mexican-American can get elected as it is now, is by being

dependent upon the power that be in the city, the slating group?

A Yes.

Q And it is, of course, your understanding that the Citizens’

Charter Association, as testimony here has already shown, is the

powerful slating group in Dallas?

A It is at this time, yes.

Q_ That does, in fact, make the Chicano dependent upon the

CCA, does it not?

A Yes, it does.

[85 1.12] Q Now, in considering what plan is best for the

Chicano community, let me ask you if you have seen any plans

that guarantee the Chicano the opportunity to participate mean-

ingfully in the election process?

A_ I have not seen a plan yet.

Q Now, let me ask you in terms of — on direct examination,

you testified that the Mexican-American is spread out over the

city but within certain pockets or areas; is that correct?

* e *

A. That is correct.

Q_ And there is still a concentration, is there not, of Mexican-

Americans in West Dallas?

A Yes, there is.

Q_ And there is a concentration around the Love Field [86]

area?

A That's right.

Q_ And there is a concentration a little bit further North

Dallas, Walnut Hill?

A Yes.

Q_ There is one over in East Dallas, Bryan, Peak, Haskell

area?

A Yes, sir.

Q All right. Isn't it a fact, Mr. Aguiree, that as far as the

Mexican-American in Dallas is concerned, in order to have

representation that he must either go to more single member dis-

tricts so that he can control a district or have such [87] a com-

bination plan that there are an adequate number of at-large’s so

that the Citizens’ Charter Association can be dealt with?

A Yes. And I'd like to qualify that answer if I may. Because

when we talk about more at-large positions, my reason for giving

a yes answer to that is that | am convinced of having had eighteen

months’ experience on the council that the needs of the Mexican-

American community are going to be taken care of only after the

others have had their needs satisfied.

It would appear to me that the more at-large positions that are

available, the more flexible the controlling political party is going

to have in allocating the spots. Today it happens to be the CCA,

and that — you know, next election it may happen to be some

other group. When I say that more single member districts would

give us an opportunity — a better opportunity to participate, ob-

viously the most ideal would be to have a council of 950,000

people. Then everybody has a vote and is beholden to no one. So

| am sure that a computer somewhere along the line could come

up with a number of representatives that would give us eight or

ten persons of whatever the council composition happens to be,

and within that context, | am going to answer your question, yes.

[88 1.5] Q Do you have an opinion as to what the Chicano

wants in terms of his ability to participate in the electoral process-

es of electing city councilmen?

A Yes, I think that basically all the Mexican-American is

asking for is the right to enjoy our constitutional right to have an

Opportunity to participate in the election process, and that is all

we are after.

We are after — that is our goal, and we would like to be able to

do so without having to negotiate just to have an opportunity to

play.

Obviously, when you return it reduces the reputation of almost

a million people down to a group of eleven. There is a lot of com-

promise that has to be made. In our particular case with 8 to 10

percent of the population, it forces us to negotiate just for the op-

portunity to run. And so to that extent, what I feel that the com-

munity wants and needs is a system by which we can enjoy our

constitutional right without having to negotiate with anyone.

Q_ In other words, the Chicano in the City of Dallas wants to

be independent of both the Citizens’ Charter Association as a

necessary endorsement and/or any other groups’ endorsement?

[89] A_ That is our goal.

Q You feel that — do you know in terms of the varying plan

here of the eight, three, do you know of any plan that might

| ST ca aE

—~

accomplish that?

A_ Not within the context of this type of thing. We have not

had the time to really look into other methods of electing our

representatives. We haven't had the time.

It is my understanding that other places have used a totally dif-

ferent method of electing their people. And actually, all that we

are about here, both black, brown and white, is adequate repre-

sentation. As far as I'm concerned, we have not even explored the

possibility of proportionate representation yet, which as my

understanding is used quite successfully in Europe and has been

used in other cities in this country.

> + *®

[90 1.4] Q_ In other words, at this point in time, references as

far as the Chicano in Dallas is concerned, the Little Mexico area

which did exist before the tollway came through, and areas like

that that have been eliminated, it seems that by doing so they are

being punished for assimilating because we are not going to have

representation under the eight, three plan, is that correct?

A It seems that way.

Q You mentioned a proportionate representation. Is there

not an electoral process whereby you could take, for example,

eleven potential council members and have accumulative voting

very much as minority shareholders in a corporation do?

A It’s my understanding that this is politically feasible, and in

fact, legal. We have not had the opportunity, or at least I haven't

had the opportunity, to become completely conversant with the

details of such a system. But I do know that it offers an alterna-

tive that we need to look at before we decide on any plan.

[91 1.16) Q (By Mr. Hernandez) Well, let me ask you this,

Councilman Aguiree, were you the one that sponsored the

resolution that the Judge has referred to in his Order citing a dual

system that existed?

A_ 1 offered that resolution, yes.

Q_ And was that not as a direct result of the impact that this

city had had on Chicanos?

A That's right.

Q Do you have an opinion as to whether that resolution

would have even been offered had you not been on that council?

[92] A_ All I can do is look at the record and there have been

other incidences that could have provoked such a resolution and

none was Offered.

* *

[93 1.20] THE COURT: Councilman, let me ask you this ques-

tion:

With about 850,000 people in Dallas, according to the °70

census, and this is what we have to go by at this time, as I view the

exhibit before me which is the plan that is being offered by the

city, the eight, three plan, | certainly can observe that the

Mexican-American population [94] is certainly throughout the

entire city, | mean, every year, every one of these districts has a

percentage, and I know that the largest percentage is some 20

percent.

As | understand your testimony, the only way from the stand-

point of single member districts, there would have to be an in-

crease to the point that you would have even a reasonable chance

of electing your own choice if you so decided itthat way would

be districts down somewhere 40 or 50,000 at the most, is this

correct?

THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe that, Judge.

THE COURT: In other words, there is not any contiguous

area. In other words, otherwise you'd have to jump from this

pocket to this pocket to this pocket?

THE WITNESS: That’s right.

THE COURT: I was not quite clear as to the other method that

you had indicated.

THE WITNESS: Proportional representation?

THE COURT: Yes. On how this would be done.

THE WITNESS: Well, Judge, | am not an expert. I’ve had the

benefit of about one hour’s discussion with Dr. Fells, political

scientist from the University of — East Texas State University,

and I haven't had the time to become completely conversant, but

it is my understanding from the information that I get from him is

that this system is used quite successfully in Europe, and not in

[95] an effort to share representation to various races, but to

share representation for the political parties since they have more

than two, usually.

So — and that it has been used in New York and it has been

used in Cincinnati.

| don’t know — I know why it was discontinued in New York,

but | don’t know why it was discontinued in Cincinnati.

THE COURT: I misunderstood your word on proportion. |

was not clear as to what you said. I understand it now. But I don’t

want to cut you off. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS: So — and that is why I think it’s imperative

that that alternative be at least looked at seriously, because |

think this is what all of us here are after, and that is adequate

representation. And our concern is to have our day in court, re-

gardless of whether it’s here or the city council or the county

courthouse. And I| haven't seen from my point of view a real con-

serted effort to review and study the other alternatives.

As far as I can see, we have limited ourselves to that method

with which we are most familiary, and I think, understand that. I

can appreciate the fact that the plans that have been offered have

been on a white and black basis with the Mexican-American

community totally excluded from the discussions.

[96] We, on the other hand, have had to develop our ex-

pertise from scratch, and we just have not had the time to prepare

a plan. I wish that I could have an alternative to suggest, but Ido

know there is other alternatives we have not discussed yet.

THE COURT: All right. I’m clear. | didn’t understand what

type of representation.

ONESIMO HERNANDEZ,

having been duly cautioned and sworn, testified as follows,

to-wit:

* * *

[1031.2] Q _ All right, sir. Have there been any groups besides

the Citizens’ Charter Association that have ever sponsored a suc-

cessful Mexican-American candidate?

A_ Not to my knowledge.

Q_ Do you have an opinion whether this is any group in exist-

ence right now that can successfully sponsor a Mexican-

American candidate, other than the Citizens Charter Associa-

tion?

A_ Not to my knowledge.

Q All right, sir. So at the present time, that is what we are

talking about, that is the hook-up or the tie you need right now?

A That’s right.

[107 1.24] Q And either way, I’ve suggested to you whether

the Chicano or Chicanos are selected for an at-large seat or [108]

single member district seat, it would at this time have to work

with the Citizens’ Charter Association in order to win; is that

correct?

A We work with everyone.

Q_ Well, you will have to have the endorsement and backing

of the CCA for this upcoming election, will you not, if you're

going to be successful?

A Yes.

Q This is true, whether you're talking about this eight, three

or any plan that would offer some at-large feature in combination

with a single member district feature. You’re going to have to

continue to have the cooperation and backing of the CCA?

A Under the current structure, yes.

Q_ And particularly with the one we are talking about right

here, Defendant's 92, which is the proposed signing member dis-

trict plan by the City of Dallas?

A Yes.

Q What guarantee do you have that the CCA will continue to

support a Mexican-American candidate from either an at-large

or a single member district position?

A The same guarantee that we have that anybody else would

support us.

Q_ So that basically, are you telling the Court that you don’t

know from time to time or that you haven’t now?

[109] A Our existence depends numerically, we are such a

small number, our distribution is such that it is only through

negotiation and a developing of revenues with one group or an-

other that we can succeed at this point. I have no insurance that

the CCA would be the source that we would have to go to to suc-

ceed and other organizations. They have no commitments,

neither does the other minority communities have a com-

mitment.

Q_ So there is no guarantee?

A_ No guarantee.

And for the time being, at least, the Citizens’ Charter Associa-

tion is the one most powerful slating or backing group in the City

of Dallas in terms of its elections?

A Yes.

MR. CLOUTMAN: No further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. HERNANDEZ:

Q. Dr. Hernandez, you're the same Onesimo Hernandez who

is an intervenor in this lawsuit, are you not?

A Yes.

Q_ And you intervened in the lawsuit because of what reason?

A Because at one stage in the evolution of this lawsuit |

thought that we had Chicano representation. And when the

knowledge came to us that we did not have Chicano representa-

tion, | thought that it was imperative that we present our case.

* 8 *

[1111.20] Q And I believe you told Mr. Cloutman, here, there

is nO guarantee that the CCA will in the forthcoming election or

any other election continue to have any type of commitment to

the Chicano community?

A That is correct.

Q Now, would you agree with Councilman Aguiree that

[112] what the Mexican-Americans or the Chicanos in the

City of Dallas want is an opportunity to participate in the

political processes and be independent in doing so?

A That is correct.

Q Now, he doesn’t get this independence, does he, if he’s

required to rely upon the Citizens’ Charter Association's en-

dorsement in order to win?

A That's right.

Q On the other hand, you have looked at the other plans —

let me ask you this: this particular eight, three plan numerically

forecloses the Chicano from being able to run from a single mem-

ber district and be elected, does it not?

A It is my impression.

Q_ Does the only opportunity that the Chicano has is by run-

ning from one of the two at-large?

A That’s right.

Q Considering that the third one is for mayor?

A Yes, sir.

* * *

[1141.20] Q_ I believe you heard Councilman Aguiree testify

that in his opinion that the problem that was being addressed

here in terms of representation in terms of single member vis-a-

vis at-large, that the approach by the city plan as well as by the

plans that the plaintiffs have put forth that you have seen, that

that approach is basically a black-white approach, [115] would

you agree with that?

A Yes.

[1161.3] THE COURT: Doctor, let me ask you just a question

or two.

You said that the eight, three system reduces the chances of

Mexican-American representation. You mean it reduces it from

the present all —

THE WITNESS: Present system, yes.

THE COURT: Now, with regard to the ten, one or eleven, zero

single member district, you're saying that this would even further

reduce it?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

THE COURT: In other words, it is your opinion and your

testimony that the more at-large districts you have, the more

opportunity the Mexican-Americans have?

THE WITNESS: Under the numerical structure that we have

now.

THE COURT: Or there has got to be a change in your govern-

ment structure that would greatly increase the number of council

positions before you could have a numerical chance?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: At successful races in districts?

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: All right. That is what | wanted to be [117]

sure I understood.

.: ss

WES WISE,

having been duly cautioned and sworn, testified as follows,

[118] to-wit:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

* * *

Q_ Mr. Wise, are you involved in politics in the City of Dallas?

A Yes, | am.

Q_ In what capacity?

A Mayor.

Q And at that time, do you recall any directions being

given to the city attorney's office to draw them so that there

would be some blacks on there or draw them so that certain

[119] other groups would have certain representation, or was it

simply to draw them equally?

A_ Not to my knowledge. I think it was to be drawn equally

and as fairly as possible.

Q_ And at the time that the plans were presented to the coun-

cil, were there more than one presented?

A Yes, there were.

Q_ Did some of the city councilmen have plans of their own?

A Yes, and we all had the opportunity to submit plans if we

wished to.

Q_ Yes. And were they thoroughly discussed before this plan

was finally adopted?

A Yes, they were.

* * *

[1231.7] Q All right. And — now, Mayor Wise, I believe you

were there when the vote was taken as to whether or not the

resolution would be passed and sent on to the Court.

A Yes, I was.

Q And I believe at that time there was some question as to

whether or not certain ones voted yes or voted no because of the

courtesy due other councilmen under the council's policy of not

voting on a resolution on the same day in which it was presented;

is that correct?

That is correct.

Q Did that have something to do with the vote that day?

A That was my impression. And sometimes my impressions

are mistaken, Mr. Bickley, but my impression was that this was

— well, obviously, Mrs. Harrison changed her vote for that very

reason. The choir ruled and then there was some discussion and

then we called upon you and you reiterated what Mayor Pro Tem

Allen and I had said, that the mayor had made it quite clear he

wanted this plan back immediately, and so that is when we voted

[124] it in.

Q You mean that the judge wanted it?

A Excuse me. I meant the judge. I almost promoted you,

Judge, I'm sorry.

Q All right. And so it did have involved in it some of the

council procedures itself rather than just straight outright vote?

A They stated so, yes.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. HERNANDEZ:

Q Mayor Wise, are you familiar with the explanation of the

council from Number 9 tt Number 11?

A. From 9 total members to |! total members?

Q Yes.

A Yes, I am.

Q That was done primarily to accommodate the black com-

munity, was it not? -

A Probably, I would say so, yes.

That is how George Allen got on?

Yes.

Do you know of any proposed explanation of the council

QO >

in order to accommodate the Chicano community?

A No, I don’t. I haven’t heard it discussed.

[125] Q Not unheard of, though, in the annals of city politics?

A_ Oh, no.

Q_ For the council to expand itself in order to accommodate a

minority representative?

A Yeah, true.

* * *

{126 1.22] Q (By Mr. Hernandez) Let me ask you this: In

terms of this possibility of having a member, one would be froma

single member district, wouldn’t that Mexican-American have to

tie himself with either the majority community or the black [127]

minority community in order to be elected?

A Out of a single member district?

Q_ Yes.

A I think, looking at the practical, political view, you’d have

to say that that would be helpful, certainly. I don’t know whether

it would be certain. Again, looking at the practical, political pic-

ture there, though, Mr. Hernandez, I don’t think the CCA would

be at all smart in not having at least one Mexican-American on

their slate. And if I chose to endorse, say, eight people, I don’t

think I'd be very smart if I didn’t have at least one Mexican-

American that I endorsed, if there was a good candidate, looking

at it from a practical, political standpoint.

Q_ But, the point is, that it makes the Chicanos dependent

upon whoever is doing the slating.

A Well, I think that has been to a certain extent true, yes.

Q_ Unless there is a plan whereby the Chicano can exert his

own ability to elect his own representative?

A That is not my opinion, frankly.

Q Now, isn’t it somewhat inconsistent to say that the

Mexican-American can be at-large and represent the Mexican-

American community while saying at the same time this person is

to take an overall — overbreadth view of the city?

A_ No, I don’t think so. I think Councilman Aguiree [128]

does that. I think you can take both the overall view and the view

of the Mexican-American. He does a very capable job there.

QI believe the Mexican-American came up to the city coun-

cil last week to discuss single member districts and you referred

them to the Court here, did you not?

A Yes.

QI take it that it is your opinion that this is the forum where

the structuring of the single member district or of a constitutional

plan should take place?

A That was our city attorney's advice and I concurred in that

advice, yes. I think I should point out here that all council

members — council persons had input from both the Mexican-

American community and minority community for many years

on this subject, so we are well informed on the subject, | think.

I've had many of my Wednesday meetings.

+> * *

[133 1.10] MR. HERNANDEZ: In response to the Judge,

Mayor Wise, I believe I heard you say that the single member dis-

trict was going to benefit Mexican-Americans. And under the

plan, the eight, three as it is proposed, the highest concentration

of Mexican-Americans in any district is in District 2 at 20 per-

cent. As a political reality that Mexican-American could go out

and wear out his haratchis and still not ever win, couldn't he?

THE WITNESS: If a mayor who won overwhelmingly in an

election went into that district and helped him campaign and

went to the shopping centers with him and to the Sunday Schools

with him and to the community centers with him and said, “Let’s

elect this man, he will help me when you elect me mayor,” I think

thee is every possibility that he could be elected with only 20 per-

cent.

MR. HERNANDEZ: I think that is the second part of [134]

the question. The first part of the question is, if he doesn’t have

the good graces of the mayor, he couldn’t get elected.

THE WITNESS: ! don’t — well, I think being practical, |

would say his chances were greatly lessened. 1 don’t think it is a

matter of he couldn't be elected, no. But it would be lessened, no

question about it.

MR. HERNANDEZ: Well, keeping in mind that I believe the

prior testimony has shown that voting patterns are such that

black Americans tend to vote for black candidates and white

Americans tend to vote for white candidates and brown Ameri-

cans tend to vote for brown candidates, if that holds true, his

chances would be extremely small in trying to get elected?

THE WITNESS: Frank, I sound like I’m arguing with you

here, but I had the same strong percentage in the black communi-

ty in this last election that I had in the white community and

George Allen had the same strong support in the white communi-

ty that he had in the black community. And if you take those two

examples, I don’t think that would be true.

MR. HERNANDEZ: I don’t mean to be argumentative,

either, but I don’t believe that there was a Mexican-American

candidate and that makes a distinction.

THE WITNESS: I thought you said black and white, [135] I

misunderstood you. | think obviously when you don’t have a

strong population advantage in one of those districts, it’s going to

lessen your chances, no question about that.

GEORGE SCHRADER,

having been previously sworn, testified as follows, to-wit:

zs: * 8

{155} Q And in terms of the structure which dictates the

results, if the Chicano — and if a plan is structured in such a way

that he must be dependent upon a slating group, he would always

be, beholden to that slating group, would he not?

A_ I would think if he viewed — he won on that basis, he'd

want to work with that basis, yes.

Q_ And that might, in fact, limit the type person or individual

that might be acceptable to a slating group such as the CCA; is

that correct?

A_ Yes, uh-huh.

Q_ So, in effect, we might get a CCA type Chicano, so to say?

Do you agree with that?

A Yes, sir, | agree with that.

{1591.10} Q Now, you're familiar, are you not, with the fact

that Dallas city council at one point expanded itself, had a

charter election and expanded from nine to eleven, you're

familiar with that?

A_ Yes, sir.

Q_ And that was done primarily to accommodate the black

community, was it not?

A_ I really don’t know the reasons for that. It was to enlarge

the council and increase the representation, but whether it was to

respond to racial need, I’m not sure.

Q_ Well, let me ask the question this way, then.

Prior to the expansion, there had never been a black American

elected to the council?

A That’s right.

Q And subsequent to the expansion, there was a black

American elected to the council?

[160] A Yes. Wait, no. Elected? Wasn't the first black to

serve on the council — there was a predecessor to Councilman

Allen.

Q_ He was elected out of District 8, which is not the consti-

tutionally unaccepted at-large form. So the question is that the

city council has, in fact, expanded itself, so to say, to meet the

requirements of minority groups?

A That is the result.

a * *

[171 1.5] ROOSEVELT JOHNSON, JR.,

having been duly cautioned and sworn, testified as follows,

to-wit:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

*>_ «+ *

[178 1.15] Q Were you aware there has not been a black

person elected to the city council who wasn’t endorsed by the

Citizens’ Charter Association?

A_ I haven't searched it out, but I would assume this is

probably right.

Q_ And, in fact, were you aware that there has never been a

minority member on the council, both black and brown, who

wasn't endorsed by the Citizens’ Charter Association?

A Quite aware of it.

* * s

[180 1.22] Q And I take it that you would not foresee given

the present political climate that a black person would be elected

at-large?

A_ It would be very hard.

& & *

[185 1.16] CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. HERNANDEZ:

* = *

[1871.4] Q Now, when you use the term “minority” in talking

about the two districts that could be elected, whee minorities

could get elected under this proposed eight, three plan which you

have adopted, are you not using that term synonymously with

black Americans?

A_ I would certainly feel that because it’s predominately

black.

Q. And so in terms of, I believe you said that it would be very

hard to elect a black person at-large in the City of Dallas under

this eight, three plan. Wouldn’t that same hold true for electing a

Mexican-American or Chicano at-large?

A_ I would feel that it would.

Q. And you certainly know from your political involvement

tha it costs an awful lot more to run an at-large election than it

does a single member district election?

A Yes.

Q_ Now, you're familiar enough, are you not, Mr. Johnson,

with the housing patterns of the City of Dallas to know that the

Chicanos have dispersed themselves throughout the city a great

deal?

A Yes.

[188] Q And this is one of the aimes and goals of your organi-

zation, is it not, the Urban League?

A Right.

Q And because the Chicanos have dispersed themselves

throughout the city, he doesn’t have a particular area where he is

concentrated at this time, does he?

A That is — I believe that is true, yes.

a * =

Q (By Mr. Hernandez) Do you know of any Mexican-

American that has been elected to the city council without the

support of the Citizens’ Charter Association?

A_ No.

cal * *

ADLENE HARRISON

[205 1.4] Q Don’t you feel, Mrs. Harrison, that minority

groups would be in fact taking a chance to assume that they

could, in fact, have a shot at one of those three at-large seats?

A_ | would have to answer yes.

*- * *

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

VOLUME X

[6] DR. DAN WEISER,

having been duly sworn, testified as follows, to-wit:

* * *

[63 1.16] Q All right. Have you studied the Citizens Charter

Association and their effect on the City Council elections and

their whole slating process?

A Yes.

Q_ All right. Do you have an opinion from your study and

from your examinations as to whether or not the changeover

from an at large to an 8-3 system would have any impact at all on

the CCA slating process?

AI think it has several effects, as I believe | testified earlier,

that within a single member district I think [66] their effect

would be greatly lessened, it would have a much smaller effect,

any slating group has a much smaller effect within a single mem-

ber district.

Now what that means is that, if you were trying to retain a

majority on the council and you look at districts under, say, let's

take this, well, under this plan, under the 8-3 plan that we have

now, that you could reasonably expect candidates endorsed by

the CCA or favorable to the CCA or from past voting patterns,

fairly easily taking 3, 4 and 5, those districts. The District 7 which

is sort of the Pleasant Grove District is the most — has in the past

been the most anti-CCA District area in the city.

Q_ In terms of voting returns?

A_ In terms of voting returns.

All of these are in terms of voting returns for so-called key elec-

tions showing CCA, anti-CCA vote, such as, say, a Wise, Wes

Wise, Avery Mays vote for the mayor a few years ago.

Or the last time a good key would be Fred Zeder, Garry Weber.

Okay. Using those, next the other districts, district — the

predominantly black districts also usually vote anti-CCA. Not

quite as heavily as 7 would.

Now Districts | and 2 are sort of swing, I mean, [67] they’re —

maybe District | — well, they swing. They’re not too much pro or

anti-CCA.

Q Would this have an effect on the at large seats?

A Yes. Because what you have essentially are three, I think,

would be three easy wins. So it would be very important for you

to take the three at large seats.

Q_ And when you say “you,” are you —

A I'm talking about the CCA, I’m sorry.

Q_ Allright. Under this analysis, Dr. Weiser, what do you feel

from your experience would be the probability of the CCA

slating a black or Mexican-American in one of these at large

seats?

A I think it would be very unlikely that they would risk it. I

mean it would be quite important if it really came down to on the

council, they would — they could no longer afford the luxury in

one term of slating, say, a Mexican-American as they have with

Pedro Aguiree.

Q All right. Now would a black or a Mexican-American

from your past experience and from your past analysis of voting

returns, have an opportunity or a meaningful opportunity to be

elected at large without the CCA endorsement?

A_Istill have the same opinion about at large elections here

within the City of Dallas, that it will follow the past pattern, that

it will preclude a black or Mexican-[68]American from winning

any at large seat without the endorsement of the CCA.

Q_ So under the Defendants’ 8-3 Plan, a black or Mexican-

American would have very little opportunity to be elected at

large, in fact be precluded from —

A_I believe in that case the black would be precluded and

someone who was identifiable as a Mexican-American by other

than aself-identification, I think, would find it very difficult if not

impossible.

* e e

[201.24] Q Do you feel that there is any possibility under your

analysis from the CCA and the changes that will come about [71]

as a result of implementing an 8-3 that the CCA would endorse a

black or Mexican-American candidate at large?

A_ I don’t believe that they would.

Q_ So in fact those three at large seats are completely pre-

cluded from minorities?

A_I believe so.

* * *&

[841.7] Q Turning to page 2 of this plan under Section 3, in

how many districts would blacks have a majority of the popula-

tion?

A They would be predominantly black in three districts.

Q_ And would there be a majority-minority district under this

plan?

A_ Yes. Again District 2, there’s been an increase in the per-

centage Mexican-American to thirty-one percent here, and the

black percentage has gone down a little bit to thirty-five percent,

and the Anglo percentage has gone down to about thirty-four

percent.

Q_ In your opinion would it be possible for a Mexican-Ameri-

can to run in this district and enjoy some hope of success?

A Yes.

*- * ®8

[170 1.7] CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. HERNANDEZ:

Q_ Dr. Weiser, you’re quite familiar with the problem of the

Chicanos politically in the City of Dallas, are you not?

A I’m somewhat, somewhat familiar.

Q_ Well you worked on voter registration plans with them,

haven’t you?

A Yes, sir.

Q_ For the past ten or twelve years?

A Yes, sir.

Q_ Well don’t you keep up with the Chicano problems, Mexi-

can-American problems politically?

A I try to but occasionally I get hot letters from people telling

me I’m not doing what I should be doing.

Q_ And occasionally you write them, too?

A That’s correct, sir.

Q_ So you are very familiar with the Chicano problems in the

City of Dallas?

[171] A I would have to stick with, I’m somewhat familiar

with the Chicano problems in the City of Dallas.

Q Let me ask you then, do the Chicanos have equal access to

the political processes in the City of Dallas elections?

A_ I don’t believe that they have the same access that the

Anglos do, no, not quite.

Q Is their access more equivalent to the access that the black

American has?

A Ummm. That’s — gets tougher.

I just — I don’t think they’re precluded in the same sense thai

the blacks are here in Dallas. | try to explain that, at least for

census purposes, telling who’s Mexican-American or not, some-

one could pass for an Anglo in an election and yet they could be

on the census classified as Mexican-American. Whereas | don't

believe that too likely in the black community.

Q Do you know of any candidate that would pass as an

Anglo that was a Mexican-American that ran and got elected in

the City elections?

A_ No, sir, I do not.

. * *

[173 1.24] Q Do you know of any Mexican-American candi-

dates who have ever run for the City Council that were not

endorsed by [174] the major slating groups, the Citizens Charter

Association, that were elected?

A_ No, sir, no, sir, not at all.

Q_ Soin that respect they're exactly like black American can-

didates?

A That’s correct, yes.

* . *

Q_ Well isn’t it a fact that one of the reasons that the Mexican-

Americans did not run for City Council positions in the past is be-

cause the very nature of the system precluded them from having

any Opportunity to win?

A I think that’s a — it was certainly felt to be that and proba-

bly | think that was much more the case, say, in 1960 than 1970.

1 base this on the assimilation somewhat.

I just do not think that the pattern of discrimination is as

invidious against Mexican-Americans politically as it has been

against blacks in the City of Dallas.

7. *« *#

[179 1.25] Q Would you agree with me that the Mexican-

Americans have [180] not been able to have any great ability to

participate as black Americans in the political process and that

the Citizens Charter Association has restricted the access of

Mexican-Americans to the political life of Dallas?

A Well they haven’t increased it any more than — I mean

there have been two candidates that the CCA has endorsed.

Q Generally hasn’t the CCA treated Mexican-American

political candidates exactly like they treated black American

political candidates?

A Yes. Before a certain date there were no Mexican-

Americans put on the CCA slate, just as there were no blacks.

Q Would it be a fair statement to equate the fact that, if they

have restricted the political life of black Americans in Dallas, that

they have restricted the life of Mexican-Americans in Dalias?

A_ In that same sense, yes.

*> * *#

[1821.8] Q Right. So the Mexican-Americans are dependent

in a large manner on the efforts of the dominant white group to

begin to run a campaign?

A I think certainly that what happened in the past in City

elections, it’s so, yes.

* > 6

[1831.18] Q. You heard testimony that there has never been a

Mexican-American that was not endorsed by the CCA, ever win,

you agree with that?

A Yes.

[1841.6] Q So if a Mexican-American, the only way that he_

can participate in an 8-3 plan is at large, then it would cost him

more to run than it would other —

A Yes, enormous. You're talking in terms of eighty thou-

sand, one hundred fifty thousand, two hundred thousand dollars.

Q And traditionally Mexican-Americans, just like black

Americans, have not had the where with all or the money to fund

this type of campaign?

A That’s correct.

Q_ So in that respect the black American and the Mexican-

American candidates in Dallas have been equated on even par?

A That's correct in my opinion.

Q. And it would be a fair statement to say that this particular

cost operates to further restrict the access of Mexican-Americans

to the political processes within the City of Dallas?

A You're talking about under the present system? Yes.

Q Or under the 8-3 plan if the only position that you have is

at large?

[185] A Yes, yes. I think that’s true.

Q Mexican-Americans have always been considered a

minority in Dallas, have they not?

A I believe so, yes.

Q_ And they are recognizable, identifiable minority?

A Yes.

Q_ And they have generally received treatment that was given

to minorities?

A Again, with my qualifier, that, you know, not to the extent

possible.

Q_ Well a Mexican-American that lived in West Dallas didn't

get any better services than the black American that lived in West

Dallas, did they?

A_ No. That’s correct. But historically the assimilation has

been easier because it has occurred. Between ’60 and °70 there

has been more black segregation. Between '60 and ’70 there’s been

a tremendous explosion, it seems to me, of Mexican-Americans

throughout the Dallas community.

+> * *

Q_ Allright. Now in 1973, did not the City of Dallas recognize

the unique problems of the Mexican-American when it passed an

ordinance following a rider of 1973 that [186] provided unequal

law enforcement, dual justice and these type of matters? That was

directly tied to the Mexican problems?

A Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Counsel, that’s all in the record. I’m well aware

of all of this. That's been in the record three or four or five times.

I’m just saying they’re repetitious matters. I don’t see any need of

covering them.

MR. HERNANDEZ: If all counsel are prepared to stipulate

that Mexican-Americans are a recognizable and identifiable

minority and they have been invidiously discriminated against as

black Americans have —

THE COURT: That's not what I’m talking about. I’m talking

about this resolution that was passed by the City.

MR. HERNANDEZ: Yes. I want the record clear that that

resolution was passed for the benefit of Mexican-Americans

primarily. The Mexican-Americans were the ones that pushed

this resolution, not black Americans.

THE COURT: That's already in the record.

MR. HERNANDEZ: All right.

[1901.11] Q Did you try to create a Mexican-American dis-

trict by increasing the number of districts and thereby having

smaller districts rather than the eighty-four thousand per district

as under the 10-1 plan, or the seventeen five thousand per district

under the 11-0 plan?

A No, I did not.

Q Now do you have an opinion, that is, the census tract

figures were taken, and with the Mexican-American population,

that if smaller districts were made, that perhaps you could not

have a district that would have more than fifty-six percent?

A Difficult, very difficult.

And the reason is that they only statistics you have cover these

four tracts. You can’t go within the other tracts.

[191] And the best you can do would be to include just the

orange areas and how you got there.

It would be very small, very, very small district. That is, | am

fairly convinced that it would be impossible to draw a fifty-six

percent Mexican-American district if you had much of any popu-

lation within the district.

Because the only places where you have over fifty percent

Mexican-American are these four census tracts within the City of

Dallas.

Q But you didn’t try to do that at all?

A_ No, no, I didn’t.

Q You mentioned proportional representation in your direct

examination. I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about that.

In terms of the proportional representations, there’s many

plans that can be utilized to insure proportional representation.

And one of the methods would be for all voters, for example if

there were eleven people to be elected, to vote eleven times and

have — |

A_ Yes, that would be one way.

Q. And that way minority groups could accumulate their vote

very much like minority stockholders accumulate their vote?

A Yes.

[1921.21] Q Did you consider any other type of district such

as circular districts where Councilmen might represent an entire

circular area around the City?

A Im sorry, I don’t understand you.

Q You started this with a fellow like sort of like a dart [193]

board, if you had one district here and then a band of another dis-

trict, a band of another district, —

A_ No, I did not consider that.

Again in particular there are many ways to draw these things. I

felt constrained to follow almost as closely as I could, starting

with the City’s resident plan and then add —

Q No magic to that, is there?

A No.

Q Is that correct?

A_ Well I did it because I felt that I would have the best chance

of getting it adopted if the 10-1 plan were to be ordered.

Q_ I believe you've already testified to this, that the effect of

the City 8-3 plan precludes Mexican-Americans from participat-

ing in this electoral process?

A I said that this is again without the CCA’s endorsement

which I find highly unlikely.

But I don’t think I'd go as far as preclude. I think I used the

word “very difficult.” Precludes, | would say would apply to a

black candidate and —

iin

Q_ Well what single member district under the 8-3 plan would

a Mexican-American be able to win?

A_ I don’t think that a Mexican-American would have a very

good chance, or would have a good chance in any of the [194]

districts.

*-_ * *

[1951.24] Q Would it be a fair statement, Mr. Weiser, to say

in light of all of the problems that you have had as an expert in

[196] dealing with the Mexican-American and counting the

Mexican-American and plotting him, that if the Mexican-

American were only let into this lawsuit on the 17th of January of

this year for purposes of the remedy, that they would have quite a

difficult time in getting the material in order to be able to put on

expert witnesses?

A_ I would think there would be problems.

Q_ I believe that you testified that you based your districts and

also your opinion in terms of the effect of the 8-3 plan of preclud-

ing all but two blacks by looking at the plan and last that it was

your opinion that citizens should be represented on a percentage

of what they are within the City?

A Yes.

Q The Mexican-American approximately sixty-seven

thousand and some odd within the City?

A Yes.

Q And I believe that you testified that the City’s plan of

[197] 8-3 precludes a black from winning?

A_ I think so.

Q_ And it would be difficult for a Mexican-American to win?

A_ Very difficult. More difficult than under the 10-1 plan.

6 s =

Q_ Aren’t Mexican-Americans precluded in District 2 just as

black persons are?

A You mean in this —

Q_In the 8-3 plan?

A Yes, I think so.

Q Okay.

A Well let me back up. I don’t preclude it. Would have a very

difficult time.

Q_ Well I’m going to ask you to explain to the Court the dis-

tinction you made between being precluded and very difficult

time.

A Well preclude to me seems almost an impossibility, and a

difficult time means a difficult time, that the candidate [198]

would have to maybe spend more money and in a sense be a much

better candidate, have had more experience, various things of

this sort.

Q So the Mexican-American would have to be a little more

qualified or a cut above the regular candidates in order to have an

opportunity?

A Probably, yes.

Q But if he was just the ordinary Mexican-American, he

would not have, he would be precluded?

A He would no be able to defeat the white candidate, yes.

Q_ In other words | take that you heard the term “Super

Mex,” that if we had Super Mex running in District 2 he might be

able to win?

A That's correct.

Q_ If he were not a Super Mex, he would be precluded?

A_ I think that’s a fair statement, yes.

Q_ And I believe you also in discussing your knowledge of the

Citizens Charter Associaton under the single member district

plan, even the City’s 8-3 plan, would probably not endorse a

Mexican-American at large?

A_ I think that there would be reasons for them not to, yes.

Q_ So in effect the Mexican-Americans would not be able to

participate from a Councilman’s point of view?

A_ Right. I think that maybe so, yes, sir.

[199] Q _ And so if the 8-3 plan were adopted by the Court, in

effect what would happen to the Mexican-American community

would be that, under the plan at large now which has been de-

clared unconstitutional and we have approximately ten percent

of the Council representation, under the 8-3 plan the City pru-

poses we would be precinded or not have any representation?

A Yes.

[2051.13] Q You don’t conceive under the 10-1 plan or the 8-3

plan of a Mexican-American ever being able to win at large, do

you?

A_ Not now. Yes, I agree with you.

Q Would the government of Dallas be impaired if you had a

plan that was twenty-one and zero?

A_ I don’t think that the government of Dallas would be very

heartily —

Q_ I take it your answer is no?

A That’s correct.

Q_ The population patterns of the Mexican-American | be-

lieve you said has been shifting over the past ten or so years as

you've noticed. And in fact they have been assimilating [206]

more intu the community, have they not?

A Yes.

* * *

Q_ In other words if all sixty-five thousand or so Mexican-

Americans lived in one area of the City, you could very easily

then get a safe fifty-six percent district?

A Most likely, yes.

Q And so it would appear that although in your opinion

single member districts do not foster segregation, the fact that the

Mexican-Americans have integrated is in effect causing him not

to be in position under the single member district plan to elect

anyone in a safe district?

A Safe district, yes. And I agree with you that in one sense

there’s a penalty there. As more assimilation, there is less

identification that there is going to be a single spot or residentiai

spot or geographical spot.

Q You don’t know of any Mexican-Americans who have

ever been deputy mayor or mayor pro tem of the City of Dallas,

do you?

[207] A_ No, I do not.

* * *

[208 1.10} Q (Mr. Hernandez) Dr. Weiser, under the pro-

posed 8-3 plan by the City of Dallas, the Defendant here, this City

plan does not allow Mexican-American representation accord-

ing to percentage of population, does it?

A No, not in my opinion.

Q_ In that respect the Mexican-American is in the same posi-

tion as the black Americans?

A Yes.

Q_ Now are you familiar with the Dallas-Fort Worth Toll

Road?

A_ I've been on it, yes, sir.

Q_ And you know that it cuts right through what used to be

Little Mexico?

A I’m somewhat familiar with that.

Q The Mexican-Americans that live there were relocated or

in effect forced to assimilate in some fashion, were they not?

[209] A _ I would — I believe so, yes, sir.

Q_ There are no Mexican-Americans that are named Plaintiff

in this suit?

A None that | know of.

* * *

[224] ROBERT MEDRANO,

having been duly sworn, testified as follows, to-wit:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. JOHNSTON:

Would you state your naime for the record, please?

Roberto Medrano.

And where do you reside, Mr. Medrano?

2346 Douglas.

And how are you employed?

I work for the Dallas Community Action.

In what capacity?

I’m the center director.

And what is your race or ethnic origin?

> HF H FH FH PDH

Chicano.

Q_ Mr. Medrano, have you run for public office in the City of

Dallas?

A Yes.

{225} Q How many times? Q And did you run at large or in a single member district?

A_ Three times. Saaat

, A Single member district.

Q_ All right. And briefly when was the first time that you ran Q And what was the place number that you ran in, in the

and for what office?

D.1.S.D. Election?

nal ode A Place 8.

2 And fer whes efter? Q And could you generally describe the ethnic makeup and

A Dallas School Board Trustee. location of that district?

Q_ And did you run at large or in a single member district? A Fifty-one percent minority.

A Iran at large. Q And of that fifty-one percent, what were the percentage of

Q_ Did you win or lose? black and Mexican-Americans, if you know?

A | lost. A It’s thirty percent black, twenty-one percent Chicano.

Q_ When was the next time you ran? Q All right.

A The following year. A And forty-nine percent Anglo.

Q_ And for what office did you run? Q And did you win or lose that election?

A_ The same position, Dallas School Board Trustee. A_ I beg your pardon?

Q_ And did you run at large or in the single member district? Q Did you win that election?

A At large. A Well I had to go in the run-off but I won the election.

Q And did you win or lose? Q Now you say you were in a run-off. Now what was the race

A | lost. or ethnic origin of the person that you were in a run-off with?

Q_ In both of those races, were you endorsed by any major A_ An Anglo.

white slating group? Q_ And were you endorsed or was your opponent endorsed by

A No. [227] any major slating groups in that race?

Q_ Now when did you last run for public office? A My opponent?

A Last year, °74. Q Yes.

Q_ And for what office did you run? A_ No, he wasn’t.

[226] A Same position. Q And were you endorsed by any major slating groups?

Q_ In the Dallas Independent School District? A No.

a <é

* ‘

Q_ Now you've testified that there was roughly twenty percent

Mexican-American and thirty percent black population in that

district.

Did you receive any support of any kind by black persons in

your race for the D.I.S.D.?

A Yes, I did.

Q_ And did you receive the support of white persons in your

race for the D.1.S.D.?

A Yes, I did.

Q_ All right. Could you describe for us generally the location

of the district from which you ran? | think this map might be

clearer.

Does this describe in general geographic terms?

A_ It’s basically District 2 except for the Kessler Park which

has been included there.

But if you take the — well, the Kessler Park area, it would be

basically the same.

Q_ Allright. And the Kessler Park area, what is its basic racial

makeup?

[228] A_ It’s predominantly affluent white area.

Q Could you state whether or not there are basic similarities

between the district that you ran from and District 2 that is shown

on Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 110 which is a 10-1 plan, and Plaintiffs’

Exhibit 112 which is an 11-0 plan?

A_ They're basically the same.

Q Mr. Medrano, you've had occasion, have you not, to view

the plans that the Plaintiffs have presented to the Court during

the course of this hearing?

A_ Yes, both plans.

Q_ The 10-1 and the 11-0?

A The 11-0.

Q. And you are aware, are you not, of where you reside within

those plans?

A_ Yes, I do.

Q_ And what district do you reside in in those plans?

A Same — no, Place 2.

Q Place 2. And has that generally been referred to as the

West Dallas area?

A Yes, the West Dallas area.

Q_ All right. Now based on your experience in politics in the

City of Dallas and the Dallas Independent School District, do

you have an opinion as to whether or not you would be prevented

or precluded from running for City [229] Council in District 2

where you reside on either the 11-0 plan of the 10-1 plan?

A If either plan, 11-0 or 10-1 is adopted, I’m considering re-

signing from the Dallas School Board and running for single

member district.

Q_ So it would be attractive to you that you would consider

running for either one of those —

A_ Yes, very. They’re basically the same.

Q_ Now has anyone guaranteed that you would win an elec-

tion in that district?

A_ No. There’s no way you can be guaranteed any position.

Q Were you guaranteed victory when you ran for the Dallas

Independent School District Board of Trustees?

A No.

Q Mr. Medrano, there has been discussion here this morning

as to how a Mexican-American or a Chicano would be elected to

office under any of the three plans that are before the Court at

this time.

Would you consider it necessary to form a coalition with one

or another of the other ethnic or racial groups that exist in the

City of Dallas in order to win?

A I don’t believe in allegiance or any type of loyalty to any

type of coalition form.

Q_ And how would you consider it possible to be elected?

A Just be a representative of the people, sell your platform,

[230] what you stand for, be responsive.

Q Did you run for Dallas Independent School District on the

basis of racial appeals?

A Oh, no, definitely not.

Q_ And just for background information, Mr. Medrano, have

you ever been associated with in any way the Citiznes Charter

Association or the CCA?

A_ No, I haven't.

Q Have you ever sought their endorsement or support?

Q Would you ever contemplate seeking their endorsement or

support?

A No.

2 Now you've also seen what the City has identified as their

8-3 plan.

Do you realize where you would reside within that plan? That

would be Defendants’ Exhibit 92.

A Yes. Place 2 is where I would be.

Q You've also heard, have you not, Mr. Medrano, testimony

that it’s indicated to be very difficult fora Mexican-American to

be elected from that Place?

A Oh, most definitely. A Mexican cannot get elected to any

one of those districts.

Q_ Do you believe that it’s possible for a Mexican-American

to be elected at large in the City of Dallas if he is not [231] en-

dorsed by a major slating group such as the CCA?

A He cannot be elected, not unless he’s endorsed.

MR. JOHNSTON: Pass the witness.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. BICKLEY:

Q Mr. Medrano, 1972 you ran for the School Board at large?

A Yes.

Q_ And at that time you ran at large, what age were you in

1972?

A Thirty.

Q_ And what had you done in the community prior to that

time to give you name identification?

A_ I worked within the community as a community organizer.

I was a neighborhood senate director which I still held the posi-

tion two years ago.

Basically the job description of that position is to communicate

with community, come in contact with the community and hear

their grievances, their plight, and mostly address their needs

through a community action program.

Q What did you do before you were working with the

DCCAC?

A Prior to 68 — I came to work for the DCCAC in "68.

So prior to that I was working for Ling-Temco-Vought.

[232] Q And what other community work have you done?

A_ Basically volunteer work, touring, any way I can help the

community, in reference, any type of —

Q_ Been involved in government of any kind to prior to 1972?

A Prior to 1972?

Q Yes.

A No.

Q_ And actually for awhile the DCCAC from 1968 and 1971,

along in there, was kind of a controversial organization for

awhile was it not?

A_ Basically who?

Q_ Was a controversial organizaition?

A The way the media played it up.

Q Yes, that’s what I mean, the way the media played it up and

the way them made it look to the community as though it was

rather controversial, is that correct?

A Yeah, media.

Q_ So being associated with it was not exactly a political plus

in 1972, was it?

A_ I don’t know how to say.

Q_ Well you say that you know when you can win ina district

and when you can’t, Mr. Medrano.

I assume you know what the political pluses are and the

minuses are, don’t you?

A_ Yes, sir.

[233] Q All right. So being associated with that, in trying to

run at large was trying to carry a burden on your back, so to

speak, and get elected?

A Oh, definitely.

Q. All right. So it was not really in the cards for you to get

elected at large trying to carry that burden fora first time around,

was it?

I wouldn’t know what to say.

How many votes did you get?

Approximately 9.9 percent of the total populous vote.

Of the total vote?

Yes.

All right.

About thirty thousand votes were cast at that year in °72.

And you got about three thousand?

Three thousand votes at large.

At large?

> HFA FH FH FH PS

At large. Because we were involved, the election went into

a run-off.

Q You were not in the run-off?

A_ No, sir, not in the run-off.

Q. All right. How much money did you spend on that cam-

paign in 1972?

A Oh, approximately nine hundred, maybe a thousand

dollars.

Q. And that was to run at large for a district the size of the

City of Dallas?

A That’s not very much money. Couldn’t afford it.

QQ Allright. Actually a thousand dollars, that was only about

thirty-three cents for each vote you got, wasn’t it?

A Im not very good at math.

Q. All right. In 1973 you ran at large again, did you not?

A Yes.

Q_ What had you done between the time in 1972 when you ran

at large and 1973, to give you any more name identification and

to be better known to the people throughout the City of Dallas in

the whole schoo! district?

A_ I began relating to other communities, the South Dallas

area. I never foresaw the single member district concept in the

D.1.S.D., in other words wouldn’t have thought about it.

And I was estalishing name identity across the “ity with South

Dallas, Pleasant Grove area, North Dallas. But it was very — it

was very difficult being a member of the minority.

Q_ It wasn’t too difficult in the South Dallas area, was it? That

is a minority area, isn’t it?

A_ | was establishing good rapport in the South Dallas area.

Q_ With the people at the Crossroads Center?

[235] A_ Right.

Q_ And those that were working there?

A Yes.

Q_ And what were you doing in particular to create this rap-

port with these people?

A_ I had received a promotion with the community action

program that was responsible for the total overall of the five

neighborhood centers which are encompassed the North, South,

East, West and the Oak Cliff area.

I received a promotion in *71 from the West Dallas area to the

umbrella that covered five total community action programs

which covered the whole county.

Q And you're employed by federally funded organization,

are you not?

A_ At the present time, yes.

Q_ And were at that time?

A Yes.

Q Did you get any opinion from anyone as to whether or not

that might have been a violation of the Hatch Act for you to

become involved —

MR. JOHNSTON: Your Honor, | object to this. It’s hardly

relevant and prolongs the inquiry. If he can tie it up —

MS. DEMAREST: It’s not a violation of the Hatch Act.

[236] THE WITNESS: Just one at a time.

MR. JOHNSTON: And in fact it’s not a violation of the Hatch

Act.

THE WITNESS: I don’t mind answering.

THE COURT: I don’t see the materiality.

MR. BICKLEY: All right. I just asked if he did. I'm sorry.

THE WITNESS: I did check it out with the O.E.O. official

from the National office.

Q (Mr. Bickley) I assumed you had. That's the reason |

asked.

A Yes.

Q. And they allowed you to do this?

A Yes.

Q All right. And then, these people that you were actually

talking to and making acquaintance with in the South Dallas

area were the blacks in the main there, weren't they?

A Yes.

Q And then in the Pleasant Grove area, what group of

people?

A Talking mostly Jewish people.

Q_ And then what other areas were you working with?

A_ North, some of the what I would consider some of the

white liberal areas.

[237] Q All right. Then you were making some contacts with

the blacks and the Jewish and the white liberals at that time?

A That's true.

Q_ All right. Then in 1973 you ran at large.

How many votes did you get at that time?

A Oh, about a thousand votes, about nine hundred and

eighty something.

Q You mean less than you got in 1972?

A There were more candidates. In °72 for the record there

were only three of us. The CGS or the dominate — the same

thing, the dominant slating group that controls the School

Board. And then we had LEAD candidates and then myself. So

there was three candidates.

Q You were the independent?

A Yes, sir, | was the independent.

Q. All right. And then in 1973?

A lI can't recall how many candidates there were. I think if

I'm not mistaken I think there were nine candidates if I'm not

mistaken.

And did CGS have a candidate —

Yes.

— in your race?

Yes.

And did LEAD have a candidate in your race?

> OH > H PA

I can't recall, I can’t recall.

[238] Q _ I think maybe they did not, did they, in that area?

A_ I can’t recall.

Q_ All right. And then the rest of you were running as inde-

pendents?

A Yes.

Q. All right. And how much money did you spend ona race at

that time covering the whole School District?

A Based on that experience, approximately two hundred

dollars.

Q. All right. Then you ran again in 1974. You ran three con-

secutive years, didn’t you?

A Yes.

Q In 1974 when you ran, you ran from a single member

district?

A_ In ’°74, yes.

Q And when you ran from a single member district, how

many votes did you get?

A Ican’t recall the first go around. I had to go ina run-off. |

was running against — I did take forty-six percent of the popu-

lous vote.

Q_ The first go around?

A Yes. Made me go into — I didn’t get the majority, the fifty-

one plus, I had to go in the run-off.

Q. And then you went into a run-off?

A Yes.

Q_ It was a rather light turnout, though, wasn’t it?

[239] A_ In my previous studies in the school politics, the

voter turnout, usually the run-off is less. The first vote that’s cast

of that individual is usually cast with his candidate.

After it goes in the run-off, that individual is no longer con-

sidered, you know.

Q Actually the total vote cast in the single member district

was less than eight percent of the total registered voters, wasn’t it?

A_ I never have done an analysis on it.

Q How many votes did you get?

A Eight hundred.

Q Eight hundred. And that was fifty-one percent or a little

over?

A Fifty-one percent. About fifteen hundred votes were cast.

Q. About fifteen hundred votes cast?

A In the run-off.

Q_ And what is the population in that Place 8 that you were

running for there?

A_ I have no idea.

Q_ What?

A_ I have no idea.

Q You mean you ran a race and you don’t even know how

many people there are there or how many you represent?

A That’s true.

Q Do you know what their problems are, Mr. Medrano?

[240] A_ Yes, sir, indeed. I attend mostly all P.T.A. meetings

and deal with the problems.

Q_ Do you have any idea how many people there are?

MR. JOHNSTON: Your Honor, he’s answered that question.

This is the third time the question has been asked.

THE COURT: Well, that’s the question I was going to ask if he

hadn't. | want to know how many people are in District 8.

MR. JOHNSTON: Your Honor that plan is in evidence and —

THE COURT: Well, can you just state to me how many are in

it?

MR. JOHNSTON: I'd have to look at the exhibit, Your

Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Look it up while he’s doing this. |

want to know.

Q (Mr. Bickley) Then you say that basically, you think, the

same as District 2 under the 10-1 or 11-0 plan?

A It’s basically the same, yes.

Q What were the real issued in your 1974 campaign?

A The °74 campaign?

Q_ Yes, the ’74 campaign?

A Well, salary teacher increase and no property advalorem

[241] tax increase, those were my two major ones, which I have

cast my votes on, the taxes have gone up and the teachers

increase, | voted in favor of both of them.

Q You were on the losing side of those votes, weren't you?

A We still are.

Q_I believe you said there was no guarantee to anybody in

any district that they can get elected?

A No.

That’s politics, isn’t it?

That’s true.

Now you represent your area well, do you not?

| think I do.

Q All right. Then you are not one who believes that a

Mexican-American cannot represent whites, blacks and

Mexican-Americans altogether, are you?

> O >

A Repeat your question.

Q_ I say, you believe that a Mexican-American can represent

whites, blacks and Mexican-Americans all, don’t you?

A That’s true.

Q Do you believe that a black can represent Mexican-

Americans and whites as well as blacks?

A Yes.

Q_ And whites can represent Mexican-Americans and blacks

as well as whites?

A_ I question that.

[242] Q You question that?

A Yes.

Q_ So the Mexican-Americans and the blacks have something

specific that they can do for the whites that the whites can’t do the

same for them in return, in your opinion?

A Yes.

Q Did you make these ideas known in your race, Mr.

Medrano?

A_ Yes, I did.

Do your votes on the School Board reflect your views?

No.

What views do they reflect?

They’re diluted.

What do you mean by that?

> HOH > H FD

Whenever you've got an issue or proposal, it’s never taken

into consideration, it’s referred to committee and it dies there.

Q_ I know. But your vote, I'm not talking about what any-

body else does, I'm talking about what you do, reflect your views?

A_ It votes — I cast my — it’s on record.

Q Well Mr. Medrano, I don’t think you understand me.

I'm saying, do you vote your convictions?

A_ Yes, I do.

Q_ And one of your convictions is that whites cannot repre-

sent blacks and Mexican-Americans?

[243] A What are my convictions?

QI say, and one of your convictions is that you've just testi-

fied to is that whites cannot properly represent blacks and

Mexican-Americans, is that correct?

A_ I would say it depends on his attitude and his philosophies

and his — it depends.

Q. Are you changing your testimony?

A_ No, I’m not changing my testimony.

Q Well didn’t you testify a minute ago that whites cannot

represent Mexican-Americans and blacks properly?

A Whites?

MS. DEMAREST: Yor Honor, | object to Defendant — |

think he’s stated his answer, that he questioned it and | don't

think he’s said definitely yes or no, and | think counsel is being

argumentative.

THE COURT: Well go ahead and — there is some misunder-

standing here in my mind at this point now. I understood him to

say one thing one time and something else now.

MR. BICKLEY: That’s all | want to know, Your Honor. I'm

just trying to get the facts. If he'll tell me one way or another

because I’ve understood him to testify both ways.

THE WITNESS: Well it’s just like saying | — I could — |

could live more comfortably if Garry Weber [244] represented

— eg re

a , *

pS COPY WUE J

100

me than Gilmore, you can go from there. I could live with Mrs.

Harrison representing me than another representative.

Q (Mr. Bickley) And wouldn't you likewise think that it

would be true that some of the whites could live easier with some

other Mexican-American representing them than maybe you?

A Oh, yes.

Q_ All right. So that thing crosses all lines, doesn’t it?

A_ Yes, it does.

Q Allright. That’s what I wanted to get, I wanted to be sure

that we got that point. Thank you.

MR. BICKLEY: No further questions.

MR. PAUKEN: Your Honor, just a couple of quick questions.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. PAUKEN:

Q Mr. Medrano, you've indicated you have been associated

and you continue to be associated with the Dallas County Com-

munity Action Committee and as such you've become familiar

with the South Dallas area as such.

Do you consider South Dallas an area that has certain com-

munity interests as such?

[245] A_ Yes, it does.

Q You see here what’s been marked as Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 110

District 6.

Does that District 6 as it appears on this map look to you to be

South Dallas as you know it?

A_ I couldn't answer that. | see it’s 9, 8 and 6 in South Dallas

and part of 10.

Q_ All right. In other words part of 8 census tract 34 and 40

would be considered part of South Dallas, is that not correct?

“

101

A Yes, 34 and 40.

Q Allright. Parts of 10 census tract 28, 25, 26, 24, 23, those

would be considered parts of South Dallas, would they not, Mr.

Medrano?

A I’m more familiar with streets. Could you name the streets.

Q. Okay. If we’re talking about the Haskell and Ring area, for

example.

A Haskell and Ring, I would consider that East Dallas.

Q You would consider that East Dallas.

What about the area near Fair Park, the area slightly north of

Fair Park, would you consider that part of South Dallas?

A Name the streets.

Q_ Stonewall Street.

A Im not familiar with Stonewall.

[246] Q_ Fletcher Street. Harry Street.

A Harry, I would still consider that — that’s a toss-up.

Q Okay. Let me ask you this: Looking at what is part of Dis-

trict 6 in Plaintiffs’ Exhibit Number 10, census tracts 9101, 9102

and 9301, would you consider those census tracts as part of South

Dallas or as part of Pleasant Grove?

A Part of Pleasant Grove.

Q Okay. That definitely would be part of Pleasant Grove.

Those are areas that are east of the natural boundary, | believe

Second Avenue and also a railroad track?

A Yes.

Q You would definitey consider them part —

A_ Yes I would not consider them part of South Dallas.

MR. PAUKEN: Thank you. No further questions, Your

Honor.

102

THE COURT: Let me ask you a question here, counsel.

MR. PAUKEN: Excuse me. I was referring, and I thought I

made it clear, to Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 110 which is a single member

district 10-1 plan that was offered into evidence and it’s a census

tract map and I was referring in the numbers I gave toa particular

census tract cited on that map.

THE COURT: Let me ask you, counsel, just for my [247] own

clarification: Is it your contention then that this Plaintiffs’ Ex-

hibit 110 which is the 10-1 plan, is it your contention that districts

10, 6, 8 and 9 dilute the South Dallas area and also eliminate com-

mon interest?

MR. PAUKEN: Right. My contention is that the black vote

has been diluted particularly with respect to District 6 by carving

it up and putting parts of the black vote in other districts, and that

further that the community of interest varies that fall within

South Dallas in terms of communities of interest have been

placed in districts other than District 6 which we heard testimony

to the effect is supposedly the South Dailas district.

THE COURT: All right. Now what is your contention relative

to the 8-3 plan with regard to Districts 6 and 8?

MR. PAUKEN: My contention is, Your Honor, is we favor a

10-1 plan.

THE COURT: I understand this.

MR. PAUKEN: But with respect to District 6 on the 8-3 plan,

that does include more of the areas, even though you're dealing

with larger population, more of the areas that we consider inte-

gral to South Dallas as such.

But we are here asking for a 10-1 plau and asking that South

Dallas be maintained as —

THE COURT: Yes, I understand that.

103

[248] I was getting the idea with regard to these 4, 6, 8, 10 and

9, and then with regard to 6 and 8, I wanted to see how they com-

pared, I mean from your contentions?

MR. PAUKEN: Yes, sir.

MR. JOHNSTON: Your Honor, before Mr. Hernandez starts

his examination, we have examined the record and apparently

those were, the D.I.S.D. statistics were not admitted into

evidence although we prepared an exhibit on them. We can bring

that exhibit to the Court Saturday.

THE COURT: Yes, okay.

MR. JOHNSTON: For the Court’s information, | believe

there are nine single member districts in the D.1.S.D. and there is

evidence in the record that the boundaries of the D.1.S.D. are

quite similar to that of the City.

THE COURT: In other words you're going to have eighty-five

to ninety thousand population in each one of those districts?

MR. JOHNSTON: That would be correct.

THE COURT: Okay. Thee are nine districts.

THE WITNESS: Nine, yes, sir.

THE COURT: And they're rather equal distance, | presume?

MR. JOHNSTON: I presume.

THE COURT: All right. That gives me what I was [249] inter-

ested in knowing, that you have a population in the Dallas Inde-

pendent School District of eighty-five to ninety thousand popu-

lation, all right.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. HERNANDEZ:

Q Mr. Medrano, you are familiar with the problems of the

Mexican-Americans politically, are you not?

104

Socially.

And also to the black Americans?

> AD >

To my experiences.

Q_ Are you familiar with the problem that exist between the

two communities, the animosity that exist sometimes between

the two communities?

A_ No, I wasn’t aware of that.

Q You've never experienced any problems on a black-brown

basis?

A_ No, I haven't.

Q You have personally in your job never experienced any

problems on a black-brown basis?

A Personally?

Q_ Yes, sir.

A Oh, I've received in personal.

Q_ | take it what you're telling the Court is that there are no

animosities between the Mexican-American community [250]

and the black American community, say, for example in the West

Dallas area?

A_ To my knowledge.

Q_ Well you're very familiar with that area?

A_ I'm giving my testimony to my knowledge.

Q Now you are familiar with the fact that Mexican-

American community in the West Dallas area lives in pockets,

are you not?

A Oh, yes, most definitely.

Q_ And these pockets are surrounded or separated from the

black community in that area?

A Yes, they are separated.

105

Q_ And what’s some of the names of the pockets that they live

in within this area?

A What, Anglo or Indian, Chinese?

Q_ No. The Chicanos in West Dallas?

A_ By census or precincts?

Q_ By precincts and by common name?

A_ The better area which is census tract 106, which is about

two thousand registered voters. And | think it’s Precinct 411,

that’s a predominantly Mexican-American area.

Q_ There’s not many black Americans that live in that pre-

cinct at all?

A_ Oh, less than one percent.

[251] Q _ And then what other area? Is there an area —

A Labajara, which is Precinct 417. Approximately twenty-

five hundred registered voters there. There’s another pocket.

Q Are you talking about this area within District 2 on —

A_ I would say it’s left right of Velvet Street which is half of

another precinct.

Q This is on Plaintiffs’ Exhibit 111 which isa 10-1 plan that

they have it drawn in.

So you have Precinct 411 which is predominantly Chicano?

Right.

Then 413 is predominantly black?

Yes.

And 415 is predominantly black?

Yes. 464 is black.

And 417 you say is predominantly —

> HOP? AH FH YP

I would say it’s fifty-fifty.

106

A Mexican-Americans?

A Fifty percent.

Q Fifty-fifty, all right.

Now we have the Trinity River that comes right through this.

A You've got two precincts breaking there, 193 and 356.

Q_ What are they, predominantly —

[252] A_ Very little registered voters. It’s a heavy industrial

area. 193 is predominantly black.

Q Once you cross the river, Mr. Medrano, the entire com-

plexion of this district changes, doesn’t it?

A Yes. It increases to more Mexican-American and Anglo,

less black.

Q_ Hardly any black in this whole area up here including Love

Field in the top part of this —

A With the exception of 168, 169.

Q_ That’s the black populous?

A_ Right, the black populous.

Q The community interests between what is traditionally

West Dallas and this area which is hemmed in by the Dallas-Fort

Worth Turnpike —

A Right.

Q — is different than the community interest in the Little

Mexico, Oak Lawn area right in here, is that correct?

A_ As it relates to Mexican-Americans or blacks?

Q. To both?

A Well you wouldn't have black problems north of the

Trinity.

Q And the Mexican-American problems here are different

than the Mexican-American problems —

107

A_ No. The same.

Q_ The exact same problems?

A_ The same problems.

[253] Q And then once you cross the toll road in this District 2

coming south, then that becomes predominantly white com-

munity, does it not?

A Yes, it does.

Q Now those problems, though, are different than the

Mexican-American and black problems?

A_ Yes, they are.

Q_ Now within that district you also have a housing about a

thirty-five hundred unit housing, Dallas Housing Authority

project there?

A Thirty-five hundred is correct.

Q Are you familiar with any animosity that exists in that

housing project between the black and the brown community?

A_ Not animosity. It’s predominantly black, | would say it’s

ninety-five percent black, so we have little room for confronta-

tion between browns or blacks.

Q_Is there any confrontation between browns and blacks in

that housing authority?

A_ Not to my knowledge.

Well you’ve worked that area, have you not?

Yes.

As a member of the DCCAC?

Yes.

Q Now I was a little confused about your testimony in the

sense that you said that you received black support, white [254]

support and brown support in order to win in the single member

> HO > 0

108

district but you didn’t form any kind of coalition or anything.

A_ I did not.

Q_ What do you consider to be a coalition?

A_ It’s when you pledge some — or subject to some type of

loyalty in order for return for something else.

Q_ Well did you pledge to the black supporters that you had

that you would represent them and try to do a good job for them?

A_ Did I pledge to them?

Q Yes.

A_ No, I did not.

Q Did you pledge to the whites that you supported thai

you —

A No.

Q -— that you would try to do a good job for them —

A No.

Q — im representing their interest?

A_ No. Not in the sense of pledge. I get a different meaning of

pledging.

Q You didn’t have to sign a promissory note or anything, —

A That’s right.

Q — but you did tell them that you would look out for their

interest?

A Yes.

Q And you expected them to work for you and you would

work for their interest?

A Yes, that type —

Q You were trying to put together a group of people, were

you not, to get yourself elected?

109

A_ Not a group of people.

Q Now under the 8-3 plan as the City of Dallas as the De-

fendant has put into evidence here, is there any possibility of a

Chicano getting elected under that plan in your opinion?

A Other than at large.

Q_ Based on your experience and your knowledge of the Citi-

zens Charter Association, would they be likely to endorse a Chi-

cano in the at large condition under the 8-3 plan?

A I don’t understand your question.

Q_ Do you have an opinion as to whether the CCA would

endorse a Chicano under the 8-3 plan at large?

MR. BICKLEY: If it please the Court, I think we object to this

particular question because this man said he never did seek their

endorsement, he doesn’t know whether they can endorse or can't

endorse because he hasn't tried. And he doesn’t want their

endorsement.

THE COURT: Well this is also speculative as to whether they

endorse or not endorse. Some want it, some [256]don’t. You just

don’t see much —

MR. BICKLEY: A halo or a millstone, Your Honor, but we

object to the question.

THE COURT: Well if he has an opinion. It goes to the weight.

THE WITNESS: I have an opinion.

Q (Mr. Hernandez) Yes?

A_ I've been watching the City politics and watching how Mr.

Weber and Ms. Harrison falls now, and they’re subject now to the

single member district, they will have a better chance at the at

large system, they will probably cast out Mr. Aguirre this time,

the CCA might cast him out and he will be subject to retaliation

on the part of the CCA in case Mrs. Harrison decides to run at

110

large, and of course we know where the mayor is at, so we’ve got

two at large positions. And that’s like I say, speculation, if Mrs.

Harrison decides to run at the at large system, then that would

leave Mr. Aguirre out.

Q No way under the single member district portion of that

plan that the Chicano can win?

A_ There’s no way. I said if the 8-3 is adopted, there’s no way

that a Mexican-American can be elected under single member

district.

Q You've had some experience in the City elections, have

[257] you not?

A City elections, yes.

Q You worked in the campaign at the time that Mrs.

Martinez was endorsed by the CCA?

A Yes, yes.

Q_ I believe you worked in the candidates campaign against

A Yes, I did.

Q Do you know of any Chicano that’s ever been elected to

the City Council without the CCA endorsement?

A_ No. There’s only been two.

Q_ And do you know of any Chicanos who have run for the

City Council without the CCA e 4orsement and been successful?

A No.

Q_ There have been some Chicanos who have run every elec-

tion for about the past three elections, have there not?

A Yes; including yourself.

Q Now you recall back in 1968 that the City Council was

made up of nine members and there was some concern by the City

Council to add and put into the City Council a member of the

black community.

Do you recall that the City Council made a Charter Amend-

ment, had a Charter election and expanded the Council from

nine to eleven to accommodate the black community?

A Very familiar with the Charter.

[258] Q And in fact the Chicano community at that time

worked against that Charter amendment at that time, as you

recall?

A I don’t recall.

Q_ Do you recall Johnny Caloomna and that group of young

Chicanos trying to defeat the Charter amendment?

A_ Yes, sir.

Q But that Charter Amendment passed and as a result |

believe Councilman Allen was put on the City Council?

A That’s true.

Q During that time are you familiar with an organizaiton

known as PASO?

A Yes.

Q Do you recall specifically the representative of PASO

going before the City Council and proposing a plan to the City

Council to implement in terms of districts for the City of Dallas?

A Yes. Single member district concept, yes.

Q Sir?

A Single member district concept, where PASO went before

the City Council?

Q_ Yes.

A_ Yes, I’m very familiar with it.

Q_ Are you familiar with the fact that there may have been

112

was that a combination plan or a straight single member district

plan?

[259] A_ It was straight single member district plan.

Q Now in terms of — you have particularly come from a

political family, I think, wouldn’t that be a good description?

A_ No, none of our family has ever run for political life —

political positions.

Q You wouldn't consider your father to be well-known

across this state and this country politically?

A Yes, I do.

Q He's been primarily a union organizer in political circles,

particularly in Chicano circles for a long time?

A_ Yes, I do.

Q He’s well-known and well-recognized?

A Yes.

Q_ And he’s worked very hard and long in all elections on

behalf of Chicanos within the City of Dallas for the past fifteen,

twenty years?

A_ State, local and national.

Q State, local and national?

A Right.

Q And you have learned from him a lot of your political

knowledge in working with the City elections and the various

other elections?

A Yes, I did.

Q Do you think Mr. Medrano that because of your father’s

[260] long work and because of your work, that this gives you an

edge in the sense that your name has some identification, that a

Chicano who has not done this and attempted to get elected from,

113

say, District 2 on the 10-1 plan, might not be able to get elected?

A Name factor has a lot to do with it.

Q Now you heard — did you hear Dr. Weiser testify about

the fact that there may be a little higher standards for Chicano

candidates for political office in the terms that they might have to

be better qualified or better known in order to win, do you agree

with that?

A Better qualified?

Q Yes.

A_ No. As long as he can be responsive to the people’s needs

and to relate, I think that’s the key to everything.

Q_ Do you agree or disagree with the fact that in order to be

elected out of District 2, you might have to be a Super Mex?

A_ No. I disagree.

Q Your father in his activities and you in your activities,

someone asked this question in terms of most of the organization

that has been done has been done in the field of union organizing.

Do you feel that this has given you or gives you a particular

advantage since there’s been a lot of union [261] organizing in

that area?

A There’s little or no union activities in the District 2 area,

because of the composition of the area, little or no industrial

areas.

It’s heavily single member dwellings and apartment -com-

plexes. There’s little or nc union organizing done in the complex.

Q_ Have you done union organizing for other purposes using

union funds, voter registration drives, this sort of thing?

A_ No, I haven't.

Q_ Has your father done that?

114

My father has.

Have you helped him in that?

In what area, District 2?

Generally doing that organizing?

State, local, national?

Local.

> OH > fH FH >

Yeah, there's been some heavy registration drive, voter

drives throughout the Dallas County.

Q Now you of course know Dr. Dan Weiser quite well, do

you not?

A No, I don't.

Q You don't know him very well?

A_ No, I don't.

Q Have you ever talked with him about him cutting this

[262] district to your advantage?

A No, definitely not.

Q This is not the first time that you've seen this district, is it

not?

A No. The first time was Sunday.

Q_ Have you talked with Pat Holdaway about this district?

A No. Just met her yesterday for the first time.

MR. HERNANDEZ: That's all the questions | have.

MR. JOHNSTON: I have nothing further, Your Honor,

THE COURT: Let me ask you.

(The following questions were propounded to the witness by

the Court:)

Q Do you know how many registered Mexican-American

votes in the City limits of Dalles, approximately?

115

A No, I don't, but I could find out real easy. Depends on

what you're after, You're after a School Board, then | purchased —

all the registered voters precinct lists and you've got your Spanish

surname so you can find out real quick.

Q_ I figured that someone had figured that out.

A_ I did my homework when I ran for the School Board elec-

tion, that type stuff. But to remember those figures and —

Q Do you have that figure for your ‘72 and ‘73 —

[263] A_ Yes, yes, I do.

Q Could you get that for the —

A I'm sure anyone can get it. They cost a dollar apiece.

QI mean, if you had it? | just want to know what the total

figure is?

A Registered voters?

MR. HERNANDEZ: Registered Mexican-American voters?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. HERNANDEZ: It's probably in the neighborhood of fif-

teen thousand, Your Honor.

THE WITNESS: I can get that information.

THE COURT: I understood you've already got it.

MS. DEMAREST: He has it I think for his area, Your Honor,

not for the City.

Q (By the Court) I understood you had it when you ran for

‘72 and °73 at large?

A_ No, not at large. The '74 single member district, | had it.

Q All right. I was trying to find out what it was for the

entirety.

A That information is available at the County Clerk’s office,

I'm sure.

116

THE COURT: All right. I have no further questions.

MR. JOHNSTON: We have nothing further, Judge.

117

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

Volume XI

[61.7] LOIS BACON, having been duly cautioned and sworn,

testified as follows, to wit:

(241.8) BY MR. HERNANDEZ;

Q Miss Bacon, I take it by your testimony that this eight,

three plan as revised this morning is basically the same plan that

the city proposed at the outset of the remedy portion of this case?

A Yes, sir.

Q_ Now, there is no district that the Mexican-American has a

specific percentage of populations in the single member districts

if we use the percentage of 56 percent of the population is safe, is

there?

A. There is no district that has 56.

Q_ The highest percentage is 20 percent. So would you be of

the opinion, then, that in the single member districts that the only

way that the Mexican-American — well, the Mexican-American

has no safe district that he can win in an election?

A If he were totally dependent upon Mexican-American

votes, certainly not,

[25 1. 20] J. B. JACKSON, having been duly cautioned and

sworn, testified as follows, to wit:

(351.12) BY MR. HERNANDEZ:

Q Mr. Jackson, under the revised plan that the city has put

into evidence this morning, tht doesn’t change the position of the

Chicano in getting himself elected at-large, does it?

A That is true.

Q And the only way that Mexican-Americans could be

elected at-large under the eight, three plan would be with the

support of the dominant white slating group generally known as

the CCA?

A It’s true the Mexican-American would be in the same

compromising position as the blacks.

(37 1. 10] Q The other thing, is it a fair statement to say that

the black members on the council generally concern themselves

with representing black interest?

A Yes. Yes.

(42 |. 15) ALBERT L. LIPSCOMB, having been duly

cautioned and sworn, testified as follows, to wit:

[531.7] Q Now under the 8-3 Plan as offered by the City, do

you have an opinion as to whether or not a Mexican-American

can win an at-large seat?

A Possibly, if he’s a multimillionaire, he has been anointed

by the CCA, that’s a possibility, or extremely wealthy. I'm not

trying to be snide, but extremely wealthy or anointed by the

CCA. I think we all know that. We're all adults. We know that.

(54 1. 23] Q (By Mr. Hernandez) Let me ask you about the

Little Mexico area where the City came in and put a new toll

road.

119

[55] A_ Right.

Q Those people were relocated?

A You're correct,

Q Those were all Mexican-Americans?

A That's correct. They sure did. The same thing happened to

the blacks at Love Field, Fair Park and all. | can go on and on,

you know. Right.

[l. 18] Q Let me ask you this; Have Mexican-Americans in

Dallas generally been treated in the same manner and in the same

fashion as the black American, has he not?

A That's correct, sir. | think he’s beginning to realize that

himself. You know, it used to be white on the driver's license. He

was completely faked out of position.

Q And the Mexican-American has suffered all the

[56] discriminatory acts and —

A Right.

Q — and been deprived just as the Black American has in

Dallas?

A_ 1 would think so.

Q And that’s true politically as well as economically and in

other facets of life?

A He did so, that’s right.

{83 |. 7} THE COURT: I'm sure that all of you recognize that

being a Judge is a real easy job to have. Really not many

problems, not many decisions to make.

120

[86 1. 16] At the same time, this Court will — I'm going to enter

a final order — | mean a judgment and opinion, it’s going to take

me several days yet to get the opinion finally prepared.

But at the same time | am retaining jurisdiction of this case to

oversee any ramifications of this over the next several months or

however long a period is necessary.

[941.2] So if we move all the way — and, of course — and it’s

not even before this Court about increasing over eleven council-

men because here again that gets back to the people of Dallas and

the City Council. There are eleven councilmen authorized under

the presen

This text is long and has been trimmed here. Open the source document for the complete record.

This is a copy of a public record, reproduced as it was published. It is not legal advice, and it may not be the version a court would rely on. Check the official source before you cite it.