Petition for Writ of Certiorari — Roger W. Murray, Petitioner v. Charles L. Ryan, Director, Arizona Department of Corrections

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STATE OF ARIZONA,

Plaintiff,

Cause No. CR-13057

vs.

ROBERT WAYNE MURRAY,

ROGER WAYNE MURRAY,

PRESENTENCE HEARING

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Defendants.

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Before the Honorable James E. Chavez, Judge

Tuesday, October 6, 1992

9:50 a.m.

Kingman, Arizona

Reporter’s Transcript of Proceedings

Appearances:

For the State: James J. Zack,

Deputy County Attorney

315 N. Fourth Street

Kingman, Arizona 86401

For Robert W. Murray: M. Ruth O/’Neill,

Attorney at Law

For Roger W. Murray: | Frank E. Dickey, Jr.,

Gerald Gavin,

Deputy Public Defenders

Kingman, Arizona 86401

Reported by: Rick A. Pulver, Official Reporter

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

Map

IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE ofa Mp, © i099,

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IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF MOHAVE “RoR

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INDEX

DEFENSE WITNESSES:

ANGELA HALL

Direct Examination by Mr. Dickey

Cross-Examination by Mr. Zack

Redirect Examination by Mr. Dickey

RUBY BRADFORD (Previously Sworn)

Direct Examination by Mr. Dickey

Cross-Examination by Mr. Zack

Redirect Examination by Mr. Dickey

BRENDA MURRAY (Previously Sworn)

Direct Examination by Mr. Gavin

Cross-Examination by Mr. Zack

Redirect Examination by Mr. Gavin

JOHN DAVID HEWITT

Direct Examination by Mr. Gavin

Cross-Examination by Mr. Zack

Redirect Examination by Mr. Gavin

ERNIE MAKINSON

Direct Examination by Mr. Dickey

Cross-Examination by Mr. Zack

Redirect Examination by Mr. Dickey

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

118

121

132

140

Defense

State’s

Defense

State’s

Defense

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

Exhibit

S-M

S-N

5-0

S-1

S-P

s-9

S-A

Exhbit S-T

EXHIBITS

Init. Ref.

Exhibit S-B-2 to S-B-4 142

Exhibit S-B-6 to S-B-11 142

Exhibit

Exhibit S-R

Exhibit

S-L

S~-S

S-Q

S-U

145

In Evd.

145

146

PROCEEDINGS

THE COURT: Okay. Please be seated. Okay. This

is CR-13057. Counsel are present, defendant is present,

that being Roger Wayne Murray.

Are you ready to proceed with the mitigation

phase as concerns Roger Wayne Murray? Mr. Dickey, are you

ready to proceed?

MR. DICKEY: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Zack?

MR. ZACK: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Dickey, will you present your first

witness?

MR. DICKEY: Your Honor, before we proceed to the

mitigation evidence, the State having rested its

aggravation case in the penalty phase trial, on behalf of

the defendant, Roger Murray, he moves for a judgment in

his favor on the aggravating factors. The first factor

listed by the State is pecuniary gain. At the trial which

the State relies, the State admitted that it could not

prove who killed Dean and Jackie. So, as a matter of law

there is no proof of premeditation since the State

admitted both at the beginning and the close of its case

it couldn’t prove who killed Dean and Jackie. The State

did not prove the time of the death. The State did not

prove the sequence of events. Thus, the State could not

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

show the factors for invoking the death penalty. The most

the State could show was circumstances that could lead to

a conviction for a felony murder, which requires life

imprisonment under the McDaniel case.

In the two killings, the aggravating factors of

the two killings, the situation is the same. Although the

defendants were each convicted of two killings, the State

admitted it could not prove who did the killing, it just

said essentially to the Court that, well, somebody did.

They were there, so somebody did, so they are both guilty.

We believe that’s insufficient evidence, and again, what

we have is another felony murder situation which requires

life under the McDaniel case.

As far as the cruel, heinous and depraved

aggravating factor, the State did not show -- again, did

not show who killed Dean and Jackie. The factor without

limitation is unconstitutionally vague as indicated by the

Supreme Court of the United States, although the Supreme

Court of the United States has indicated that if the

Arizona Supreme Court placed limitations on this

particular aggravating factor -- in fact, if you read the

dissent in the Walton case, and also if you look at the

cases cited therein, it shows in fact that the Supreme

Court has not limited this particular aggravating factor,

but has applied it in a wide variety of cases. So, in

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

fact we have no limitation, which means that the

particular aggravating factor is unconstitutional. Since

the State could not establish legally the cruel, heinous

and depraved because they could not prove who did the

killing, again, the life sentence is one that should be

authorized.

Now, in connection with these particular

factors, as the Court knows, the State has to prove the

case by evidence which is legally admissible under the

rules of evidence and proves the case beyond any

reasonable doubt. We submit since the State has already

admitted that it could not prove who did the killings, it

follows therefore that the most that the Court can impose

in this type of case is life imprisonment. With regard to

the tape which the prosecutor indicated he was going to

offer against Roger Murray, we submit that that Motter

tape has to be excluded as to Roger Murray because there

is no -- it’s hearsay, and hearsay upon hearsay. It

denies the confrontation and cross-examination rights

under the United States and the Arizona Constitutions, and

there’s been no showing that the witnesses is unavailable

or that due diligence was used to obtain his presence.

For those factors we believe that the tape should be

excluded as to consideration for Roger’s portion of the

case.

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

THE COURT: Mr. Zack, any comments?

MR. ZACK: Your Honor, the fact is of course the

jury did find the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable

doubt of two premeditated murders, so any argument the

State didn’t prove that, is absurd. Other claims as to

the applicability of the death penalty, there will be

arguments later, but in State v. Gillies at 142 Ariz. 564,

the Supreme Court specifically upholds the death penalty

even though Gillies himself didn’t kill the victim. The

evidence in that case was that Mr. Gillies, the defendant,

handed the rock to a codefendant who then proceeded to

smash the victim’s head. The State Supreme Court said

that is enough for the death penalty. Basically what Mr.

Dickey has related to you, again, for the jury argument,

all his motions, statements, have previously been ruled

upon. The simple fact is, the jury has found the

defendant guilty of premeditated murder.

THE COURT: Any further discussion, Mr. Dickey?

MR. DICKEY: No, Your Honor. We believe that under

the McDaniel rule, which basically says if there’s two

people involved and the State cannot prove who killed,

then the life is the one which is appropriate.

THE COURT: What we have here is a verdict of first

degree murder and also a verdict of felony murder. Based

on the verdicts, there is no grounds for the Court to

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

consider the McDaniel rationale in this case. So, your

Motion For A Directed Verdict on the death penalty phase

is denied, and we will take up your argument on the tape

when it is actually presented by the State in today’s

case.

Mr. Dickey?

MR. DICKEY: Yes, Your Honor. Roger Murray will

submit mitigation on his portion of the case. In this

particular case, Roger Murray of course claims,

notwithstanding the Court’s ruling, that the State has not

shown the aggravating factors calling for imposition of

the death penalty as to Roger. Legally, the most that can

be shown is felony murder. And we are lking not about

the factual situation, except in so father/as it is

available to sustain the legal conclusion. Roger Murray

expects to show facts concerning his childhood, his age,

and other aspects of his life which call -- which are

substantial enough to call for leniency. Roger Murray

would offer the testimony of, I believe it was Mr. Legg

and Mr. Freeman, in connection with the matters involving

the consumption of alcohol at or near the time of the

incident in question.

We believe the evidence will show that Roger

was, in this particular situation, a relatively minor

actor wherein his brother took the lead in the case. Also

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

orn

we believe that the, and we offer again in evidence, the

report of Dr. Potts in the case. We would also offer as

-- in the case we will offer certain letters and

documentations from people involving members of the

family.

THE COURT: Any additional opening, Mr. Zack?

MR. ZACK: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Mr. Dickey, you may

proceed.

MR. DICKEY: At this time, Your Honor, we would

offer, pursuant to stipulation, what has been marked S-M,

S-N, and S-O.

THE COURT: Any objection, Mr. Zack?

MR. ZACK: Your Honor, I’m not stipulating that this

comes in. However, I did tell Mr. Dickey and I had told

the Court I’d do nothing with those letters purportedly

written by Robert which he says he killed the victims.

So, essentially the State takes no position.

THE COURT: Okay. Defense Exhibits S-M, S-N, and

S-O are admitted into evidence.

MR. DICKEY: Call Angela Hall.

ANGELA HALL,

being first duly sworn by the clerk, was examined and

testifies as follows:

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. DICKEY:

Would you tell us your name, please? Could you

tell us your name, please?

together

Angela Hall.

And where do you live, Angela?

Red Bay, Alabama.

And are you related to Roger Murray?

Yes.

And what is the relationship?

He’s my brother.

All right. Now, did you and he grow up

in the same household?

Yes.

And how close in age was Roger to you?

About two years difference.

Is he older or younger than you?

Older.

You are the baby in the family, then?

Yes.

All right. How did you and Roger get along?

Good.

And when you say good, what do you mean?

He was like a protector.

How did Roger get along with the other members

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

of the family, other brothers and sisters?

A. Good, I guess.

Q. And how many brothers and sisters do you have?

A. Well, two brothers, and one sister, other than

me.

Q. All right. And how -- what was the age

difference between you and your brothers and sisters?

A. Age difference between all of us?

Q. Yes. In other words, between you and your

sister, what was the age difference, and then between you

and your older brother, what was the age difference?

A. I don’t know.

Q. All righty. Now, how did -- you indicated that

Roger used to act as your protector.

Why did you need a protector?

A. He was just acting as a big brother should.

Q. I see. All right. Now, the -- how did Roger

get along with his dad?

A. Good, sometimes. Sometimes not.

Q. And when you say good sometimes, tell us what

you mean?

A. I don’t know how to explain it.

Q. Well, if you could just do the best you can.

A. Well, sometimes daddy was mean to him.

Q. Was daddy mean to you?

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

No.

Did Roger give daddy -- this is Ken Murray,

Yeah.

Did he give daddy a reason to be mean to him?

Well, everybody always does something wrong,

but Roger always got blamed for everything I done, too.

you.

mother?

with his

Did you get in trouble from time to time?

No. Not much.

Well, you say that Roger took the blame for

Why did he do that?

Because I always blamed it on hin.

All right. How did Roger get along with his

Good.

And how did daddy act as a disciplinarian?

It depends on how mad you made hin.

What do you mean by that?

Well, sometimes if he got mad enough he/’d hit

fist.

All righty. Did he use anything else for

discipline besides his fist?

A belt or a switch.

And did Roger receive a lot of that type of

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

punishment?

Well, now, did you live in more

I don’t Know.

back in your part of Alabama?

locations,

What do you mean?

In other words, did you live in several

several cities or towns, or --

No.

-- country, that sort of thing?

Just -- no. Not a whole lot of them. Just

about three or four different places.

All right. Can you tell us where you lived?

Lived in Russellville, Muscle Shoals,

Sheffield, Florence. That’s it.

I see. And those areas that you have mentioned

are in the northwest part of Alabama; is that correct?

I guess.

Now, were you living at home when Roger was

living at home when he got in trouble with the law?

A. When?

Q. Well, let’s say when you were living in

Russellville?

A. Living in Russellville?

Q. Yes.

A. Probably.

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

than one place

oon

Q. All right. Do you know what kind of trouble he

got into in Russellville?

A. I don’t know exactly what you mean.

Q. Well, was he charged with committing a criminal

offense when he was there in Russellville?

A. I don’t know. He wasn’t there. He wasn’t

living there at the time.

Q. Where was he living; do you know?

A. I had no idea. Daddy kicked him out.

Q. I see. When was that?

A. I don’t know when it was. I can’t give you a

date.

Q. All righty. Did your daddy act differently

towards various members of the family?

A. Yeah.

Q. And how did he act differently?

A. Well, the boys always got in trouble for

everything the girls done.

Q. All right. So, you and -- your sister’s name

is what?

A. Shonna.

Q. Your other brother’s name is?

A. Robert.

Q. And so, Roger and Robert took the brunt of the

punishment for things that you and Shonna did?

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

Most of the time.

How was your mother as a disciplinarian?

She wasn’t real strict.

Excuse me?

She wasn’t real strict.

I see. Now, with regard to Roger, during the

period of time that you were growing up and he was growing

up and he was around you, did you ever know him to consume

alcoholic beverages?

Alabama?

No.

Did your family attend a church back there in

No.

Can you tell us how Roger acted emotionally?

What do you mean? Emotionally what?

Well, was he calm, was he active? Can you just

tell us how he acted when things -- first of all, how did

he act when things went wrong?

Aggravated.

And did he get aggravated easily?

Not all the time.

Now, when you lived in Russellville, did you

live in Russellville itself, or did you live outside of

Russellville?

Outside of Russellville.

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

ane

Q. Is that up in the area where your dad lives?

Daddy?

A. Yeah.

Q. All right. You say you lived in Muscle Shoals.

Where did you live in Muscle Shoals?

A. In the city.

Q. Did your dad have a business there?

A. Yes.

Q. What kind of business did he have there?

A. It was a club.

Q. Is that a nightclub?

A. Yeah.

Q. And back in Alabama some of the counties are

dry. That means they don’t allow alcohol to be sold, and

some are -- would allow alcohol to be sold; is that

correct?

A. Yeah.

Q. And this nightclub that he had, was that in

Colbert County?

A. Yes.

Q. And that is a wet county?

A. Yes.

Q. And back during the time you were growing up

there in Russellville, did Roger and Robert or you or

Shonna do any work?

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

’

A. I didn’t. Robbie did. Roger did a little

bit.

Q. And what type of work did Roger do?

A. Just help with daddy feeding the cows and

Q. You lived on sort of a farm, a ranch, outside

of Russellville?

A. Yeah.

Q. All right. Now, this work that Roger did, was

he paid for that?

A. No.

Q. Get an allowance?

A. No.

Q. How was Roger’s health back when he was growing

up with you and the other members of the family?

A. I don’t know. I can’t answer that.

Q. All right. Do you remember him getting injured

or hurt when he was growing up?

A. I remember him chopping his foot with an ax.

Q. All right. Any other types of injuries you

recall him having?

A. No.

Q. How did Roger relate to other people, that is,

non-family members around the area in Russellville?

In other words, was he friendly, was he

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

standoffish, shy, what?

A. Friendly.

Q. When he was back in Russellville with you did

he have lots of friends, a few friends, what?

A. Lots of them.

Q. Now, would you consider Roger to be a talker, a

doer, or a follower?

A. Could you repeat that?

Q. I said, would you characterize Roger as a

talker? That’s a person that talks a lot. Or a doer, a

person that doesn’t talk a lot but does something or acts

out whatever he wants to do, or a follower who follows

behind somebody else?

A. I don’t know.

Q. All right. You and your -- excuse me. You and

your family, as you’ve indicated, moved around northwest

Alabama from time to time.

Your mother and your dad divorced; is that

correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there a change in Robert’s -- or, Roger,

excuse me, after your mother and dad were divorced?

A. Yes.

Q. And what sort of change did you notice?

A. He acted ~-- he -- he felt like he didn’t get

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

any attention. He done stuff to get attention.

Q. Such as what?

A. Anything.

Q. Well, if you could help us out a bit, try to be

a little more specific as to things that you remember he

did to try to get attention?

A. I don’t know. I can’t think of anything

specific right now.

Q. Do you remember a situation where he got in

trouble for turning over tombstones?

A. Yes.

Q. And was he living at home at that time?

A. Yeah.

Q. And you were a couple grades behind him in

school?

A. Something like that.

Q. And did you go to the same schools that he did?

A. Yes.

Q. And were you able to observe his activities in

school?

In other words, did you see him around school

and everything?

A. Not a whole lot.

Q. All right. Did Roger participate in sports

activities?

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

A. Yes.

Q. And what type of sports activities did he

participate in?

A. He played football and baseball.

Q. Was he good at those sports?

A. Yeah.

Q. Did the family come out to watch him?

A. Part of them.

Q. Who did and who didn’t?

A. Mother went and watched him, and daddy didn’t.

Q. All right. Your daddy for a while was involved

in what is commonly known as bookmaking; is that correct?

A. Yeah.

Q. When you were growing up, did you and your

brothers and sisters know about that?

A. I can’t -- I was little then. I wasn’t old

enough to remember much about that.

Q. So, that’s something that you learned about

later, correct?

A. I knew a little bit about it, but I wasn’t

really old enough to understand what it was.

Q. All right. Other than Roger getting in trouble

for knocking over the tombstones, do you remember anything

else that he got in trouble for?

A. I can’t think right now..

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION Iv

Q. How -- would you tell us about the difference

between the way your dad treated Roger and the way your

mother treated Roger? If there is a difference?

A. Well, I don’t know how to explain any of that.

Q. Well, just try to do the best you can, if you

could.

A. Well, daddy hardly ever stayed -- he hardly

ever talked to anybody. Mama was always there. Daddy

hardly ever stayed in the house.

Q. All right. So your mother was around,

basically, and raised you folks?

A. Basically, yes.

Q. And your dad was usually off someplace,

correct?

A. Outside the -- out in the field somewhere.

Q. And he was running, when you were in

Russellville, he was running the farm that you had?

A. Yes.

Q. And when he opened the nightclub in Muscle

Shoals, he was basically running the nightclub there most

of the time?

A. Yeah.

Q. Your daddy have any other work, types of work

that he did?

A. I don’t know.

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

Q. During the time that you were growing up, did

Roger use to get upset easily?

A. No.

Q. And how did Roger and Robbie get along?

A. I don’t know.

Q. I take it you didn’t observe them together or

anything like that?

A. I wasn’t around Robbie much.

Q. I see. Robbie was the oldest one in the family

of the children?

A. Yes.

MR. DICKEY: I have no further questions.

THE COURT: Mr. Zack?

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. ZACK:

Q. You had a lot of friends, yourself, in that

area, didn’t you?

A. Yes,

Q. And you knew a lot of kids your age as you were

growing up?

A. Yeah.

Q. Both boys and girls?

A. Yeah.

Q. And of course you knew your brother, Roger.

Was there anything -- did he seem normal like the rest of

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT,

DIVISION IV

g i

the kids?

A. Yeah.

Q. And you say he did not get upset very easily?

A. No.

Q. You said sometimes your father was mean to

Roger and would hit him with his fist.

How often did you see that?

A. Just once or twice.

Q. Your mother didn’t work outside the home when

you were growing up, did she?

A. No.

Q. She did the cooking and cleaning and laundry,

and --

A. Yeah.

Q. The real work of the family, probably?

A. Yeah.

Q. So, the only income you would have is what your

father earned?

A. Yes.

Q. When you said he wasn’t around that much, he

was off working on the farm?

A. Yes.

Q. When he, your brother Roger played baseball and

football and your father didn’t go, would your father be

working at those times?

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

A. I can’t remember.

Q. How old was Roger when he left the household

where you lived?

A. I’m not sure. I have to think about that. I

guess about 14 or 15.

Q. That’s how old Roger was?

A. Somewhere around there. I can’t give you an

exact date or --

Q. That’s fine. You say that Roger chopped his

foot with an ax once.

Do you remember any other serious injuries at

all?

A. I can’t remember. I don’t know. There may

have been, I can’t remember, though.

Q. Do you know Roger’s birthday?

A. I know it’s July 28. I don’t know what year.

‘70, I think.

(Mr. Zack is getting something from the clerk.)

Q. Showing you what has been marked as State’s

Exhibit S-1, the page with the photograph on it.

Do you recognize that as your brother, Roger?

A. Yeah.

Q. And is that his date of birth?

A. Yeah.

Q. 7-28-70?

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

{ ;

‘ saaw?

A. Yeah.

Q. And would you agree with me, reading from the.

page, it talks about date sentenced, 9-30-88, the crime of

burglary three, and receiving a sentence of four years,

six months confinement?

Would you agree with me that’s on the same

page?

A. Yeah.

Q. And are you aware of your brother’s criminal

record?

A. Probably not all of it.

Q. What do you know about it?

A. Well, I know about the tombstones, I know about

something that happened in Phil Campbell or somewhere

in --

Q. I am sorry, I can’t hear?

A. Something happened in Phil Campbell and

Russellville. I know it happened. I don’t remember what

year it was.

Q. Were you aware that he went to prison?

A. Sir?

Q. Are you aware that he went to prison?

A. Yes.

Q. Are you aware he got in trouble when he was

still a juvenile under the age of 18?

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

MR.

THE

Yes.

What trouble was that, if you recall?

Tombstones, wasn’t it?

You don’t know?

The tombstones, I think.

I just want to know what you know.

What I know?

Does Roger know right from wrong?

Yeah.

Does he know it’s wrong to kill people?

Yes.

ZACK: Nothing further.

COURT: Mr. Dickey?

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. DICKEY:

Did -- when you and your brothers or sisters

got in trouble, did your mother try to keep that from your

daddy?

THE

Sometimes.

DICKEY: No further questions.

COURT: Anything else, Mr. Zack?

ZACK: No, Your Honor.

COURT: Okay. You are excused.

DICKEY: Call Ruby Bradford.

COURT: Okay. Ms. Bradford, you were sworn in

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

yesterday, so there’s no need to be sworn in. You are

still under oath.

MS. BRADFORD: Sir?

THE COURT: You are still under oath. Please be

seated.

RUBY BRADFORD,

having been previously sworn by the clerk, was examined

and testifies as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. DICKEY:

Q. For the record, will you tell us your name,

please?

A. I am Ruby Bradford.

Q. And how are you related to Roger Murray?

A. I am Roger’s aunt.

Q. And where do you live?

A. I live in Russellville, Alabama.

Q. And how long have you lived there?

A. Well, I’ve lived there off and on for 40 or

more years.

Q. I see. And over the period of time that you

lived there, was there a period of time when Roger, his

family lived there also?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And during that period of time that you lived

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

()

there and Roger lived in that area, did you have a chance

to observe him?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And where over that period of time did you have

a chance to see and observe Roger?

A. Well, I was teaching at East Franklin Junior

High School and I had 5th and 6th grade PE, and Roger was

in my class. Also, Roger used to come and spend the

nights with me when he was younger.

Q. I see. Now, you say he was in your class.

That was a physical ed class?

A. Physical education.

Q. Yes. And how was he and how did he act in

A. Real good.

Q. All right. And as a teacher, when he was in

your class, did you have a chance to observe his

activities with other children?

A. Yes.

Q. And can you describe how he acted around other

children?

A. Well, he was real -- I don’t know exactly how

to say this. I guess we’d call -- teachers would say

hyperactive or something to that extent. He was real

outgoing, you know, and made friends easily. But, he

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

wasn’t a discipline problem to me at all.

Q. I see. All right. In observing him acting

with other children, did you observe him going along with

the crowd, so to speak?

A. Well, I’d say sometimes, sometimes not.

Q. All right. And did Roger, when you observed

him back when he was in school, did he do a lot of

talking?

A. Pardon?

Q. When Roger was in school and you had a chance

to observe him, did he do a lot of talking?

A. Yes. Roger is outgoing, very friendly.

Q. And back during that period of time, do you

know of him bragging also?

A. Did I do what?

Q. Know him to do a lot of bragging?

A. Riding?

Q. No. Bragging.

A. Oh, bragging. No. I don’t recall anything.

We were pretty active in PE, you know, we’d do things. We

don’t do a lot of talking, we do a lot of action.

Q. All right. Did you have a chance to observe

him other than, say, in the physical education classes?

When he was in school?

A. Well, yes, uh-huh.

MOHAVE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT, DIVISION IV

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