Appendix — Logue v. United States
Supreme Court brief1973
Ask Donna
What actually matters in this document.
Text
FEB 23 1973
MICHAEL RODAK, JR..C
In the Supreme Court of the United States
OCTOBER TERM, 1972
No. 72-656
ORVAL C. LOGUE, ET AL.,
Petitioner,
VS.
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Respondent.
On WRIT oF CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES CouURT
OF APPEALS FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT
PETITION FOR CERTIORARI FILED OCTOBER 28, 1972
CERTIORARI GRANTED JANUARY 8, 1973
E. L. MENDENBALL, INc., 926 Cherry Street, Kansas City. Mo. 64196. 421-3030
Volume II—Pages 301-630
aa
INDEX
Volume II
Cross Examination .. 304
Del W. Bowers, Jr. (By Deposition) :
Direct Examination 309
Cross Examination ...0..0............2.--..cceceeececeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees 338
Redirect Examination —..00.2.2..0...0....eececceeceeceeeeeeeee sees 369
Recross Examination -....02....2........-ccecceseeececeeeeeeeeeeeeeees 370
Gerald Jones:
Direct Examination .2......22....0..2c..ecceccecceeeeeeeeeeee neeeees 372
Cross Examination -..0..2........2..ceeeccecceeceseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees 395
Redirect Examination 2..............eceeeeeceteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees 415
Tom Lowrance:
Direct Examination -.0.0..2...20.....21..cceeeeeceeeeeeeeeees 419
Cross Examimation -222.....22..22......eeceeeeeceeeeeeeeeeeeeeee teens 426
Redirect Examination _2........2.........2ceceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees 446
Frank Reyna:
Direct Examination ..0......2....2..20...e.eeeeeeeeeceeeeeeceeeceeeeeeees 449
Cross Examination -..02.2.......2....e.eeceeceeceecceeceeeeeeeeeeees 452
Redirect Examination _22.............ceceececeeceeceeeeeeeeeeeees 481
Paul Barber:
Direct Examination 485
Cross Examination 22.0..........20........eceeeeeceeceeeeeeeeeeee eee 487
W. E. Strait:
Direct Examination —.22.....2........ececeeeeeeeeeeeeceeececeeeeeees 498
Cross Examination .. 501
Seah Lies Ss oie 5 pa I a en aR : fi~
il
James L. Stone:
Direct Examination 503
Croas: amination. 1.2.8 ee 514
Mrs. Laura Allard:
SD pig cage Ove lo1i let. LA C6 ¢ SeenON sete eesaees le nels anene renee ter 516
Cross Examination 520
Sam J. Roberts:
Direct Examination 524
Cross TEXBIINIAUION, sxsccienciceicaese cisterns 544, 546
Plaintiff’s Original Complaint 555
Answer 560
First Amended Answer 963
Second Amended Answer 566
Plaintiffs’ Proposed Findings of Fact and Conclusions
of Law 569
Defendant’s Proposed Findings of Fact and Conclusions
1p | ae enn ne ear Eee 576
Pre-Trial Order ........... 581
Memorandum ad: Opiniiony asec nce trees 607
INOUHCe OE PAPC cic t eee 614
Order Extending Time for Transmission of Record ...... 615
Opinion, United States Court of Appeals, Fifth Circuit,
May 1, 1972 616
Petition for Rehearing Denied, July 31, 1972 .................. 624
a
301
A. Yes, he had no shirt on at the time.
Q. Upon arrival in the bedroom, what occurred
then?
A. Well, he got a shirt and had some discussion
there, he wanted to see the warrant right then, [404]
and Mr. Bowers didn’t have the warrant with him,
and he explained that it would be shown to him
whenever it arrived from Laredo.
Q. Did you notice anything unusual about his bed-
room or the surroundings in the room?
A. Well, it had, he had kinda wildly painted it,
you might say, it looked like it was spray can painted,
it had been sprayed across the ceiling and had made
a “X” across the ceiling, and certain designs on the
walls and stuff like that.
Q. Did you notice anything unusual in the room?
A- The odor of airplane glue, airplane-type glue.
Q. Was there a very strong odor?
A. Strong enough that when you walked, whenever
you first walked in the room at the door, why—
Q. —Could you smell it when you walked in the
front door?
A. No, I didn’t notice it when we walked in the
front door.
Q. But you did notice it when you walked into
Reagan’s bedroom, is that correct?
A. Uh-huh, his door was closed whenever we ap-
proached his door.
Q. Did you notice anything else in there?
[405] A. There was a brown paper sack sitting on the
floor there with nothing in it, that I could tell, any-
way.
302
Q. Did you notice anything unusual about the
sack?
A. No, it was just, well, I just noticed it sitting on
the floor, in other words, I didn’t look straight down
the sack.
Q. What happened then?
A. After some discussion about the warrant,
Reagan’s mother finally convinced him to go with us,
and I believe, if I am not mistaken, he was allowed
to call his attorney, which at that time, I believe,
was Marvin Foster, and he advised him, I think, to
go ahead and go with us.
Q. This call was made from the house there, is
that correct?
A. Yes, uh-huh. |
Q. And then you proceeded to put Reagan in the
car, is that correct?
A. Yes, he went with us after, after his mother
talked to him, or after the lady there talked to him,
I’m not sure whether it was his mother or not, but
after the lady there talked to him and his attorney
talked to him, he went with us.
Q. There was no struggle, was there?
[406] A. No, just the discussion up until the time
we convinced him he was going to have to go with
us.
Q. And then did you accompany Deputy Bowers
with Reagan to the jail?
A. Yes.
Q. And which jail was that?
A. The Nueces County Jail.
Q. Here in Corpus Christi?
303
A. Yes.
Q. And did you accompany them to the booking
desk?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do then?
A. Well, Mr. Bowers had him booked as a Federal
prisoner, and they took his belongings off of him.
Q. And then what did you do, if anything?
A. Nothing, that was about it, that was about the
extent of our involvement in the case there.
Q. You went on back to your customs duties?
A. Yes, uh-huh.
Q. Did you notice any particular odor about the
person of Reagan Logue?
A. No, actually we didn’t go straight to the jail.
We went by the Commissioner’s Office and then went
up to the jail.
[407] Q. Uh-huh.
A. To the U. S. Commissioner, which is the U. S.
Magistrate now, and which is J. C. Martin.
Q. Did you smell glue or a smell of glue around
Reagan Logue during this period of—
Mr. De Anda: —Your Honor, the witness has testi-
fied he didn’t smell anything, and he’s leading him,
it’s obviously a leading question and contrary to what
the witness has already testified to.
o
The Court: Don’t lead the witness.
Mr. Pain: I will pass the witness; I have no further
questions now.
304
CROSS EXAMINATION
By Mr. De Anda:
Q. Mr. May, I know it’s been a long time, and it
wasn’t your arrest to start with, is that right?
A. No, sir.
Q. Actually, as I recall Mr. Bowers testimony, and
Lrefer to it to refresh your recollection, I believe you
were, yOu were, aS you say, you were asked to go
with him or he asked you to go with him?
[408] A. Yes, sir.
Q. Because you knew where Reagan’s house was,
at least that was the way I understand his testimony,
would that be correct or incorrect?
A. Well, now that you mentioned it, it is familiar,
but—
Q. —All right, okay, now after you got to the
house, if I remember again, if I remember Mr.
Bowers’ testimony, he said a young lady, a pretty
young lady, I believe he described her as, came to
the door first, do“you recall?
A. There was a pretty young lady there in the
house, and as best I recall, she was pregnant.
Q. All right, I wouldn’t figure you fellows would
forget that. All right, now after that, afterwards,
4 when Blacki told this young girl why he was there,
#% that then an older lady came to the door, or not,
+ I’m sorry, that then Reagan came to the door and
» that he was shirtless, he had a pair of levis on, do
4 you remember that?
A. He came to the door before we actually was ad-
mitted to the house and he didn’t have a shirt on.
Q. All right, and then as I recall again, Mr. Bowers’
MU dead ah es 8 re LOM ONE EE AS td ,: Sf
305
investigation of this thing, he asked Reagan if [409]
he wanted to put his clothes on, but that he would
have to go in the house with him if he wanted to do
that, and that Reagan told him he did want to get
his clothes on, and so that was the reason that you
actually made an entry into the house.
A. Yes, that’s the reason for going into the house,
was allowing him to get a shirt.
Q. Do you recall Mr. Bowers telling Reagan that,
for him to go back and get his clothes, that he would
have to accompany him, do you remember that?
A. The way I understood, the way I remember it is,
that Reagan wanted the shirt, and in other words,
Mr. Bowers informed him he was going to have to
come with us, and he wanted to know if he could go
back to his bedroom and get a shirt before he left,
and Mr. Bowers said, “You can, but we will have to
accompany you.”
Q. All right, and then, then Reagan told Mr. Bowers
to come ahead and you-all went back there to get
his clothes?
A. Yes.
Q. All right, now in the room, you have described
some rather bizarre paintings on it, was it [410]
spray paint?
A. Yes, sir, it appeared to be that type of paint.
Q. It was all over the walls?
A. Yes, sir, across the ceiling.
Q. I think Mr. Bowers said he had never seen a
room painted like that before, would that be a fair
description of it?
A. I have never seen one painted like that before,
either.
306
Q. It looked like the room was frequently painted,
I mean all of the job wasn’t done at the same time,
it was sprayed—
A. —It was sprayed different colors.
Q. All right, and also didn’t you notice some water,
or surfboards, surfboards, were there surboards in
there?
A. I don’t recall.
Q. Were there cans of paint in there and cans of
lacquer?
A. If there was, I didn’t see those.
Q. You don’t recall seeing them? You have de-
scribed the smell of glue and could that smell have
been paint or lacquer, as well as what you have de-
scribed it as airplane glue, or are you such an ex-
pert at smelling things like that, that you [411] can
tell us?
A. I have used several cans of spray paint in my
life and I never smelled one in my life that smelled
exactly like airplane glue.
Q. How about lacquer?
A. Same thing.
Q. Lacquer has a similar smell?
A. To me, it is different, now I don’t know.
Q. All right, okay. You had no problems with
Reagan, getting him, other than the inquiries about
the warrant, whether or not you had a warrant, there
was no particular problem with Reagan Logue, was
there?
A. The main problem seemed to be that he wanted
to see the warrant right then. He was of the opinion
that he had to be shown the warrant before being
put under arrest.
III EOP LLANE LSE MS TAO Om ; ,
T
Q. Is that a problem, when somebody asks you for
a warrant?
A. Well, it is characterized as a problem, it may
not be.
Q. Okay, when you got to the jail, do you recall
Reagan contending that he was God?
A. He signed the register, the jail receipt, “God”,
and then they told him that wouldn’t be [412] suf-
ficient, the jailer told him it wouldn’t be sufficient,
and he wrote, “Logue, God Logue.”
Q. God Logue?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right.
307
Mr. De Anda: Thank you very much, that’s all.
Mr. Pain: I have no further questions.
The Court: You may step down.
(Discussion held off of the record. )
Mr.’ Pain: Your Honor, may this witness be ex-
cused?
The Court: Yes, you may be excused.
The Witness: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
308
Mr. Bowers: May we, could we withdraw the depo-
sition of Deputy Bowers, please, from the record?
Mr. Pain: Your Honor, at this time point, I will
offer the deposition of the witness, Del W. Bowers,
Jr., deceased, by [413] way of a deposition taken in
Houston, Texas, on October the 22nd, 1970, with
Plaintiffs’ Counsel, Jim De Anda, being present at
such deposition, and I will offer it as part of our evi-
dence in this case after reading it into the record.
The Court: All right.
Mr. De Anda: Your Honor, as we go along, I may
have some objections to some portions that he wants
to introduce—
The Court: —That’s all right, you can make your
objection at the time, I assume. Did you take it by
4 agreement?
; Mr. De Anda: Yes, sir, and it is not signed, but
4 Mr. Bowers is dead and I have no objections to their
3 reading it.
5 The Court: Well, there was no reason to make your
| objections at the time of the taking of the deposi-
§ tion—
} Mr. De Anda: —We did agree that we would pre-
# serve our objections until the time of trial; however,
4 in view of the-fact that Mr. Bowers is deceased, I
= would not object to the form of the question, I think.
The Court: All right.
309
[414] DEPOSITION OF DEL W. BOWERS, JR.,
the witness having been first duly sworn to tell the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
By Mr. Pain:
Q. Will you please state your name, please?
(By Mr. Bowers) Del W. Bowers, Jr.
. That is Del W.?
Yes.
. How are you employed?
. At the present time?
Yes.
Deputy Sheriff at Del Rio, Texas, Val Verde
County.
Q. How long have you been so employed?
. Since the lst of September.
. Of 1970?
. Yes.
. And you do live in Del Rio, Texas, now?
. Right.
How long have you lived there?
. Since about the middle of August.
. Where did you live prior to living in Del Rio?
[4 15] A. Edinburg, Texas.
Q. How long had you lived there?
A. Since April, 1960.
Q. How were you employed prior to your job as
a Deputy Sheriff in Val Verde County?
A. As a Deputy U. S. Marshal.
Q. Where were you stationed?
rPOPOPOyp
HK O>POPO>oO>
310
A. Edinburg.
Q. How long were you a Deputy U. S. Marshal?
A. From December, ’62, until June of ’70.
Q. What were your duties as a Deputy United
States Marshal?
A. I was at Edinburg, Texas, as a U. S. Deputy
Marshal.
Q. A U. S. Deputy Marshal for the Southern Ju-
dicial District of Texas, is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Who was your immediate supervisor?
A. Gerald L. Jones.
Q. Now where was he stationed’ during the time
he was your immediate supervisor?
A. In Brownsville, Texas.
Q. And who was your supervisor after Deputy
Marshal Jones?
A. You mean the—
[416] Q. —The next step up?
A. Casey Slocomb of Houston, Texas, Chief Deputy
U. S. Marshal.
Q. Will you describe the duties that you performed
as a Deputy U. S. Marshal, generally?
A. Well, a Deputy U. S. Marshal is the law en-
4 forcement arm of the Federal Court. Included in our
duties, of course, is the keeping of order whenever
we are in Court; we also attend Court; serve all
Federal processes, summons, complaints, warrants.
We also have custody of all Federal prisoners.
Q. In your duties as a U. S. Deputy Marshal, did
you have occasion to make arrests?
A. Yes, sir, we do that quite often.
311
Q. And upon what authority do you ordinarily
make arrests?
A. Well, by warrant, bench warrants, warrants of
arrest, orders from the Court.
Q. Okay, what is the difference between a warrant
and a bench warrant?
A. Well, just a plain warrant is normally issued
by the United States Commissioner. The bench
warrant is issued by the Court, the Judge.
Q. Is it always necessary for you to have the
[417] piece of paper representing the warrant in
your hands when you make an arrest?
A. No, it is not.
Q. And have you very often made arrests without
the warrant in your possession?
A. Yes, quite often.
Q. Is that part of your ordinary policy and pro-
cedure as a Deputy U. S. Marshal?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Are you generally familiar with the facts of
this particular lawsuit?
A. Yes, I think I am.
Q. It is a lawsuit whereby the survivors of Reagan
Logue are suing the United States Government for
damages for allegedly causing the death of Reagan
Logue, is that your understanding?
A. Yes, that is my understanding.
Q. Do you recall the circumstances surrounding
the origination of this lawsuit?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall making the arrest of Reagan
Logue?
A. Yes, sir.
312
Q. And to the best of your recollection, when was
that?
A. May I refer to my report that I have?
[418] Q. Yes, you may.
Mr. Pain: Then I continue—‘For the record, I
believe Plaintiff’s—
Mr. De Anda: —That’s irrelevant, why don’t you
go on unless you just want to read it.
Mr. Pain: No, the next question is—
By Mr. Pain:
Q. When was that time of the arrest that you
made of Reagan Logue?
A. Do you want me to relate what happened or
the exact time of the arrest?
Q. No, just give me the day, and to the best of
your knowledge, the approximate time of the day
that you first received information that there was a
warrant outstanding for the arrest of Reagan Logue.
A. About 11:00 A.M., I received a telephone call
from George Bennett, Deputy Marshal in Laredo.
Q. And what did he tell you?
A. He stated the bench warrant had just been
issued for Reagan Logue.
Q. What did you do then?
A. Well, during my conversation with him, he in-
formed me that Logue lived in Corpus.
Q. Where were you at the time you received this
[419] telephone call?
A. I was in the U. S. Marshal’s Office in Corpus
Christi.
Me au on ta a a ee ee bi ei ae ’ La
we
313
Q. But your duty station was ordinarily Edinburg,
is that correct?
A. That is true, but I was detailed to Corpus
Christi to attend Court, and also to take care of
the station while Deputy Marshal Schorre was on
prisoner duty.
Q. For purposes of the record, would you spell
Deputy Marshal Schorre’s last name?
A. (Spelling) S-C-H-O-R-R-E.
Q. And you were temporarily on duty in Corpus
Christi, Texas, in your Capacity as a Deputy United
States Marshal at the time you received this call
from Deputy United States Marshal George Bennett,
to the effect there was an outstanding warrant for
the arrest of Reagan Logue, is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. After you received this telephone call, what
did you do?
A. I contacted the Customs Agent, Earl Simmons,
by telephone.
Q. Why did you do that?
[420] A. Well, I had been informed that they knew
his address because of a prior case on Logue from
Judge Roberts’ Court in Austin.
Q. A prior case Customs had against Logue, that
was your information?
A. Yes, and I believe in my conversation with
Bennett, I believe he told me that the Customs
Agent in Corpus Christi could assist me with Logue’s
whereabouts.
Q. All right, after you called—
A. —Earl Simmons.
Q. Earl Simmons, what did you do?
314
A. Well, Simmons told me on the telephone that
Agent May and Valverde were familiar with the
subject.
Q. Were these Customs Agents?
A. Yes.
Q. All right.
A. And they knew his address and they would assist
me.
Q. All right, did they assist you?
A. Yes, they came to the Federal Building and I
got in their car, and they took me to 425 Longview.
Q. And—
[421] A*—In Corpus Christi.
Q. And the purpose of this trip that you took in
the company of the Customs Agents was to execute
the arrest warrant that was outstanding for Reagan
Logue, is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. All right, you arrived at this address, and what
was the address again, please, sir?
A. 425 Longview.
Q. You arrived at that address, then what did you
do?
A. Well, to the best of my recollection, I went to
the front door, Customs Agents May and Valverde
accompanied me.
Q. Did you knock on the door?
A. Yes, I knocked on the door and there was a
young girl came to the door. I would say she was
probably from sixteen, eighteen, or nineteen years
old, she was a pretty young girl.
Q. Did you identify yourself to her?
315
A. No, I did not. I asked her if Reagan Logue was
at home, and I would like to talk to Reagan.
Q. Did she identify herself to you?
A. No, she did not.
Q. What did she say after you inquired about
Reagan [422] Logue?
A. She said she would get him, and she went back
in the house, shut the door, and just three or four,
two or three or four minutes, why a young man came
to the door just dressed in levis, no shoes, no shirt.
Q. At the time she shut the door to go get this
young man, were you and the two Customs Agents
outside? )
A. Yes, we were standing outside the front door.
Q. All right, now a young man appeared at the
door, is that correct?
A. He came to the front door and came out on the
little porch, the foyer in front of the house.
Q. Did you talk to him?
A. Yes, I identified myself, asked him if he was
Reagan Logue, and he said he was.
Q. Now at the time you identified yourself, talked
to him at this initial meeting, were the Custom
Agents, May and Valverde, in hearing distance and
in your presence?
A. Yes, they were.
Q. What did you subsequently say to this indi-
vidual that showed?
A. I told him I had a warrant for his arrest, and
[423] that he would have to go with me to the
Commissioner’s Office and to jail.
Q. Did you ask if he was Reagan Logue?
316
A. Yes, I asked him when he first came to the
door if he was Reagan Logue.
Q. Did he acknowledge that fact?
A. He did.
Q. Then what happened?
A. Well, at this point, after I informed him that
I had a warrant for his arrest, he wanted to know
‘what for, and I told him, and then I asked him if
he wanted to get shoes and socks and a shirt or
any other clothes, and he said that he did. And
about this time, I believe there was a lady, another
lady came to the door, which I assumed was his
mother, or the lady of the house, and I told her—-she
asked him what was going on, and he told her that
I was there to arrest him again, he was being arrested
again.
Q. Did he say anything to her at that time?
A. Well, he turned to her and said that, “They
have come to arrest me again,” and he Says, “This
is something else besides the case in Austin.” And
I told him that he would have to either get his folks
to bring some clothes outside for him, [424] or if
he went inside for the clothes, I would have to ac-
company him inside. This lady was standing there,
she was present, and she said, “Come on in and let’s
get him dressed.”
Q. Did you go in?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did the Customs Agents go in?
A. Custom Agent May went in with me.
Q. Valverde stayed outside?
A. Yes.
ST cr A ARADO RAF FI 7
_
317
Q. After you and Custom Agent May went inside
the house, what occurred then?
A. Immediately, when I walked in the front door,
I smelled a very strange odor. Right at first I thought
maybe somebody was painting the house, it smelled
like, in other words, a very unusual smell. Later I
determined, from my independent determination,
from my experience, that it was the smell of glue is
what I figured out the smell was.
Q. You came to the conclusion that the smell you
smelled upon entering the house was glue?
A. Yes.
Q. Before you go on any further, did you first
recall this smell as being glue when you walked
[425] into the front door of the house?
A. Well, when I immediately smelled something
strange, I recalled the smell of glue, and it was my
judgment it was glue.
Q. And this was when you walked in the front door
of the house?
A. The very first thing, when I walked in the
front door.
Q.. Then what happened?
A. As we proceeded on down the hallway and went
into a door, which turned out to be his room, and
the further we would go down the hall, the smell
was much stronger.
Q. This glue smell was much stronger? |
A. Yes, it was.
Q. As you went into Reagan Logue’s room?
A. Yes.
Q. His bedroom?
318
A. Yes. It was a very large room as compared to
most bedrooms, and had one of these, what kind of
paintings—psychodelic stuff all over the walls, dif-
ferent to any room I had ever been in.
Q. Was Reagan Logue present in the room at the
time you went in?
A. He was present at all times.
[426] Q. Was Agent May also present?
A. Yes.
Q. Was the older lady also present?
A. I think she stood in the doorway. We had quite
abit of conversation with him. I wanted him to get
dressed, and I stated I had a warrant for his arrest,
and he said, “What do you mean, a warrant for my
arrest?” Of course, I told him I did have, and it took
him a little bit to get, to put his socks and shoes on,
some four or five minutes.
Q. Did you observe anything in the room other
than the psychodelic paintings that was unusual?
A. There was a coffee table, or low table in the
room, and laying beside this table was a large paper
sack with the top rolled down, and from that point
the glue smell was even stronger. —
Q. About how long did it take him to get dressed
and get ready to go?
A. Well, there was a little conversation at that
point. His mother wanted to see the warrant, or
this lady, I say she was his mother, this lady there
in the house, and I told her I didn’t have the warrant
in my hands, the warrant was in Laredo. She seemed
to think I couldn’t [427] arrest him without the
paper in my hands, and I assured her I could arrest
him, and shortly after that we left the house. He
went with me.
OULIEELN, LEPINE SOT OPT ONE BAS, } err
Ta NY
319
Q. Where did you take him after you left the house?
A. We went straight to Commissioner Martin’s
office.
Mr. De Anda: Your Honor, the next question is
—well, you are going to try oe the next question
in evidence and I’m going to ebject to it as hearsay.
Mr. Pain: Yes, I will try.
Mr. De Anda: Well, go ahead and try it.
Mr. Pain: Okay, “What happened there?”
Mr. De Anda: Your Honor, the response to that
question is a comment made by Commissioner Martin
at the time which is rank hearsay, and is inadmis-
sible, and I think Counsel will concede that it is
hearsay, instead of saying what happened there, he
answered something that the Commissioner Martin
had said, and I think it is—
The Court: —(Looking at instrument) I think it
is hearsay.
By Mr. Pain: ~
[428] Q. Did he conduct a hearing at that time?
A. Yes, he did. I believe that somewhere along
about this time, I believe that his mother must have
called, or this lady at the house must have called
Marvin Foster, the boy’s attorney.
Q. The boy’s attorney?
A. Yes, I think when we got there, either just
before or immediately after we got there, Mr. Foster
PY
320
called to Mr. Martin that he couldn’t be present, but
that the boy wouldn’t make any statement, or
wouldn’t even tell his name or anything, which the
boy didn’t. He wouldn’t even give his name, wouldn’t
even say anything.
Q. Did Commissioner Martin conduct a hearing?
A. Yes.
Q. And found probable cause to bind the boy over?
A. He knew the boy personally; he identified ee
boy; he knew him. ‘f~
Q. And how long did this conference with Commis-
sioner Martin take?
A. Probably ten minutes, at the most.
Q. After you had the conference or hearing with
Commissioner Martin, what did you do?
A. I took him to the Nueces County Jail.
Q. You say the Nueces County Jail?
[429] A. Yes.
Q. Was Agent May or Valverde present with you
at the time you were with Commissioner Martin?
A. They were both present.
Q. Were either one of them present at the time
you took the boy from Commissioner Martin’s office
to the Nueces County Jail?
A. They were. In fact, we were in their car, the
Customs Agents’ car. They both accompanied me to
the jail, to the booking desk.
Q. What did you do after you took the boy to the
booking desk at the Nueces County Jail?
A. There was a little conversation at the booking
desk. He wouldn’t give the officer on duty taking
the information down, he wouldn’t give him any in-
Te cals gee re ra aa ea 4
“
formation. He said his name was God Logue, wouldn’t
give his address, age, or anything. But the officer—
321
Mr. De Anda: —And to the remainder of that
answer, he again goes into what the booking officers
said, which is again hearsay. I don’t object to what
Logue said, I think that is probably admissible under
the circumstances of this case, but what the booking
officer said, that would [430] be irrelevant to any
issue, well, it might not be irrelevant, but it would
be hearsay.
The Court: Well—
Mr. Pain: —It is hearsay, and we will leave it out.
The “Court: It is kinda hard to tell when you
don’t know what it is, but if you agree it is hearsay,
I will accept that.
By Mr. Pain:
Q. Next question is—So someone there at the desk
knew Reagan Logue?
A. Yes, he had been in jail before.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I believe I went back to my office and continued
with attending Court, I believe.
Q. And you had nothing further to do with this
particular lawsuit, or case, or Reagan Logue, for
the remainder of that day, is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now what day was that, that this arrest hap-
pened?
A. This was on May the 22nd, 1968.
322
Q. Now the following day, did you take a trip any-
where?
A. Yes, on May 23rd, 1968, which was the following
day, I left Corpus Christi about 9:30 A.M. to [431]
transfer prisoners to, I believe I went to Galveston,
and then came on in to the Houston Marshal’s office
in Houston, and didn’t return to Corpus Christi until
about 8:45 that afternoon.
Q. That was the night of the 23rd of May, 1968?
A. Yes, that’s right.
Q. Did you have anything further to do with
Reagan Logue for the remainder of that day?
A. Not a thing.
Q. Did you receive any information concerning
Reagan Logue on the following day, that is, May
the 24th, 1968?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was that information?
A. Well, about 8:30 on the 24th, I was informed
by telephone, I received a call from Mr. Tom Low-
rance, Chief Jailer, that Reagan Logue had tried to
commit suicide by inflicting wounds on his left arm
on the evening before this.
Q. You received a telephone call from Mr. Low-
rance on the 24th that Reagan Logue had attempted
to cut himself on the previous day, is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. What did you do then, if anything?
[432] Mr. Bowers: I think that is a colloquy be-
tween you and Mr. De Anda there, George. He says,
“About 8:30 in the morning,” and he said 8:30 on
the previous page.
,
323
] By Mr. Pain:
Q. What did you do after receiving that telephone
call from Tom Lowrance?
A. Well, he told me where the boy was. He told me
he was in the Memorial Hospital. He told me that
he had, in fact, I couldn’t get hold of the Marshal
that afternoon, and he had contacted Howard
Vaught, and Mr. Vaught had told him to get hold
of Casey Slocomb, Chief Deputy in Houston, which
I understand he did. He called him by telephone and
he was instructed to put a guard on the prisoner
in the hospital, and I would take care of it when I
got back. I would take charge when I got back from
Houston.
Q. This was about the message you received from
Lowrance?
A. Yes, he informed me of all this.
Q. What did you do after that?
A. Well, after I talked to Tom Lowrance, I went
to Memorial Hospital to check on Logue’s condition.
Q. Did you notice anybody Standing guard at the
[433] time you went to the hospital at this time,
Standing guard over Reagan Logue?
A. Yes, we had, there was somebody standing
guard, there was a Deputy Sheriff:
Q. Why was that?
A. Well, of course, Tom Lowrance had been in-
structed to put a guard on the man to begin with
by Chief Deputy Slocomb, which is customary. We
always have a guard when we have a man in the
hospital, we have a guard over him twenty-four hours
a day.
324
Q. Why is that?
A. To insure his safekeeping.
Q. Because he is a prisoner?
A. Yes, that’s right.
Q. Because the security of the hospital may not
be what the security of a jail is, is that one of the
reasons?
A. Well, unless a hospital is specifically equipped
to hold a prisoner, yes. Any place I put a prisoner
in a hospital, they are ‘definitely required to have
a guard. —
Q. Do you recall at the time you went to the
hospital the first time to see Reagan Logue the
identity of the person standing guard at that [434]
time?
A. Off-hand, I don’t recall.
Q. Do you recall if it was Frank Reyna?
A. I believe it was Frank Reyna.
Q. Do you know Frank Reyna?
A. Yes, he is a Latin boy that works at the jail,
one of the jailers.
Q. This is your independent recollection and you
could be wrong on that, is that correct?
A. Yes, I’m pretty sure it was Reyna who was there.
Q. All right, when you arrived at the hospital; did
you inquire of anyone about anything?
A. Well, when I first arrived, I asked the nurse
on the floor what room he was in, and she took me
to the room where Logue was located.
Q™Did you inquire of anyone as to what doctor
had the care of Logue?
A. I first asked the nurse what his condition was,
and that I understood he had inflicted a wound on
: PROVEN Mar i a ae SiR a 4 a
—
his arm, and she told me I should contact Dr. White.
He was the physician that treated him before, when
he arrived in the emergency room, and she told me
Dr. White had gone off duty early in the morning
and that he was probably home sleeping. So I asked
her if [435] she would contact him by phone,
actually get him on the phone, and she said she
would, and did.
Q. Was it your understanding at that time that
Dr. White was the boy’s doctor?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. All right, and then what did you do?
A. Well, I called Dr. White. He seemed to be
a little bit irritated because I Supposedly woke him
up, I don’t know whether he was asleep or not.
Q. Before you proceed any further, at the time
you called Dr. White, had you seen Reagan Logue in
the hospital?
A. Yes, sir, I didn’t talk with him. He was laying
on the mattress on the floor, but I did not go into
his room, and I saw him laying there.
Q. What floor of the hospital was he on, do you
recall?
A. I believe the seventh floor.
Q. And you went up there and you saw him before
the time you called Dr. White?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you not speak to Reagan Logue?
A. I don’t recall that I said anything to him. I
[436] believe he was just laying there. I don’t know
whether he was asleep or what, but he was laying
on the mattress.
325
326
Q. But at that time you went and made a telephone
call to Dr. White, is that correct?
A. That is correct. I didn’t make the call, the
nurse made the call, and I picked up the phone and
started talking to him after she got him on the
phone.
Q. When you called Dr. White, did you tell him
who you were?
A. Yes, I told him who I was.
Q. What else did you tell him?
A. Well, I asked him his condition, and he told
me he had turned the case over to Dr. Gwin, a
psychiatrist that I believe his family had contacted.
I talked to Dr. White, and told him what my purpose
of calling was, to find out why he was still in the
hospital, and, of course, at this time he told me.
well, he turned the case over to Dr. Gwin, the family
had requested Dr. Gwin come,in and take charge of
the case. And I asked him_if his injury, or his wound
to his arm was sufficient to keep him in the hospital,
if the wound was severe enough to keep [437] him
in the hospital, and he informed me it was not. “I
have nothing to do,” he said, “with the case now,
because Dr. Gwin is in charge of the boy now.” Well,
- I think I may have asked him the second time if the
wound was sufficient to keep him in, that was the
main purpose, to find out about the injury to his arm,
and he said it was not sufficient to keep him in the
hospital, as far as the wound itself.
Q. Do you recall Dr. White telling you the boy
should not be removed from the hospital?
A. I don’t remember him saying anything like
that. I do remember him saying about the boy’s
—
327
mental condition, but other than that, him saying
that he had a mental problem and that he had
turned the case over to Dr. Gwin at the request of
his family.
Q. Was that the sum and substance of your con-
versation?
A. Yes, I didn’t taik to him but a short time.
Q. At that point, what was your understanding
as to the boy’s doctor?
A. That Dr. Gwin was his doctor.
Q. And that was as a result of what Dr. White
told you?
[438] A. Yes, I asked the nurse how to get ahold
of Dr. Gwin, and she said, “If you will wait, he will
be making his rounds in a few minutes.”
Q. Did you ask the nurse if Dr. Gwin was the boy’s
doctor?
A. I believe I did.
Q. Do you recall what her answer was?
A. Yes, she said Dr. Gwin had been to see him
and he would be back making his rounds in a very
few minutes.
Q. Did you see Dr. Gwin that morning?
A. Yes, I waited and just a short time, I’d say
no more than maybe fifteen minutes.
Q. Did you talk to Dr. Gwin?
A. I certainly did.
Q. About Reagan Logue?
A. I did.
Q. Did Dr. Gwin acknowledge Reagan Logue was
his patient?
A. Yes, he did. He told me the family had con-
daced him, and he may have told me he had talked
328
to Mr. Foster, I’m not sure. But somewhere in there,
there was a conversation, I think he mentioned that
Mr. Foster was his attorney, had contacted him, or
his family had contacted Mr. [439] Foster.
Q. In this personal conversation and conference
that you had with Dr. Gwin, where was that, was
that in a private room in the hospital?
A. Yes, it was in a small room with a table, kinda
of a long table, and Dr. Gwin was in a wheelchair.
He had had some injury, he was in a wheelchair.
Of course, at that time I didn’t know whether he was
in a wheelchair at all times or not, because that was
the first time I had ever seen him, and I think the
last time I ever saw him.
Q. Was anybody else present at this time?
A. Yes, a friend of mine, Mr. Phil Clayton, who
at that time I had spent the night with him the
night before; he come with me to the hospital.
Q. Where does Mr. Clayton live?
A. He lives in Corpus Christi.
Q.. Why did he accompany you on this particular
mission?
A. Well, I believe that morning that he and I had
had coffee together, and I believe he possibly came
to the office with me, and when I went to the hospital,
I asked him to ride along with me.
Q. Just a friendly association?
[440] A. Yes.
Q. He had nothing to do with the government?
A. That is correct.
Q. About how long did you have this eonference
with Dr. Gwin?
PLL MAI fT AN Ls SPF
329
A. Oh, I imagine we talked for fifteen or twenty
minutes.
Q. And were you talking about Reagan Logue all
of that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Was the tenor of your conversation with Dr.
Gwin friendly or unfriendly?
A. It was very friendly. He was very nice, he was
very cooperative and nice,
Q. To the best of your recollection, there was no
disagreement between you two?
A. None whatsoever at all. I think I would have
recalled if there had been. I would Say it was just
the other way, he was very nice and very friendly.
Q. What was it he told you about the boy during
this conference?
A. Well, he mentioned something about, I believe
the boy’s mother, that he had treated the boy’s
mother, that he had treated the boy’s mother, pos-
sibly, his true mother, his real [441] mother, and
that he had also treated this boy and he knew the
history of the family. He knew that the boy was a
user of drugs, he said something about marijuana,
peyote, LSD, and I think he even acknowledged he
knew the boy sniffed glue. ‘
Mr. De Anda: Ask one more.
By Mr. Pain:
Q. Do you recall if anything was mentioned dur-
ing this conference about the boy’s release from the
hospital?
*
j les pene
: > oareay’
330
A. He said he thought the boy should be, under
the circumstances of him being in charge, he should
be committed to an institution for rehabilitation.
Q. Did the doctor bring this up at that time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you say anything in reply to that?
A. I think he asked me the question if, I think,
“Don’t you have institutions for this purpose?” And
I assured him we did have, but it would take a Court
Order, and, I believe at this time he said that he
would be glad to call the Judge and talk to him.
I told him, well, if the boy had an attorney that
I thought it would be the best thing for the attorney
to contact the [442] U.S. Attorney in Laredo to
obtain a Court Order.
Q. Is there anything else that was mentioned dur-
ing that conference with Dr. Gwin that you can recall
right now that you have not mentioned?
A. No, I don’t know, or I don’t recall anything.
We talked quite abit about the boy and about what
should be done to him.
Q. After this conference with Dr. Gwin, what did
you do?
A. Well, I went back to the Marshal’s office in
Corpus and called my supervisor, Gerald Jones, in
Laredo.
Q. Why did you call him?
A. Well, I wanted to report to him the attempt of
the boy to commit suicide, and tell him what I had
done, and also to get his advice about getting this
boy committed to an institution.
Q. So the purpose of the call was to report the
circumstances that had occurred, and to receive pos-
sible further instructions, is that right?
SPRL LESLIE LEE LE GIS
331
A. Yes, I believe about this time Mr. Foster came
in the office that day. I was talking to Jerry, and
I think that he and I had a conversat.on about this
boy’s condition, and what should be [443] done to
him, and I believe at that time Mr. Foster talked to
Jerry, and I believe that Jerry told him at that time
he would talk to the Assistant United States Attorney,
Mr. Blask, I believe at that time was in Laredo.
Q. Did you mention anything about guards, the
requirements of guards to Deputy Jones?
A. Yes, I did. I think there was something said
about having guards at the hospital. Actually in
this psycho-ward the doors were locked while I was
at the hospital. I went to Logue’s room the second
time with Dr. Gwin, and during this visit with Dr.
Gwin, we went to his room, and I noticed there was
not much control of the keys. In other words, some-
body would come in and unlock the door and go in
the room and leave the door unlocked, and at this
point I thought it was very necessary to have a guard
there to enforce his safekeeping.
Q. Did you mention something to that effect to
Deputy Jones? '
A. I did, I mentioned it to Jones that I thought
there was loose key control, and I believe that was
the words I used to him.
Q. Did you make any recommendations and did
he make [444] any suggestions to you?
A. I made recommendations that we keep a guard,
and he said, “Well, by all means,” to keep a guard
there if I thought it was necessary to keep a guard
there.
332
Q. When you say, “Keep a guard there”, does that
necessarily mean a Deputy United States Marshal?
A. No, we hire normally off-duty police officers
in transporting prisoners, or keeping prisoners in the
hospital, and it is usually someone we know per-
sonally in handling prisoners, knows our rules and
regulations of security of prisoners, which is nor-
mally an officer off-duty.
Q. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a U. S. Deputy
Marshal to do this guarding?
A. No, we have the authority to hire guards for
the purpose of guarding prisoners.
Q. Some type of peace officer?
A. Normally an off-duty police officer.
Q. Did you, after talking with Deputy Jones, call
Deputy Slocomb?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did he tell him, excuse me, what did you
tell him?
A. I think I reported to him the circumstances of
[445] what we had done, and what the doctor had
recommended.
Q. Did Deputy Slocomb give you any directions or
information, or did he merely acknowledge receipt
of your information?
A. Well, the best that I recall, he just acknowl-
edged, tald me to keep in contact with Jerry about
what was going on.
Q. Was there any discussion either between you -
and Deputy Jones, or between you and Deputy Slo-
comb, about making some arrangements at the
County Jail?
A. Yes, there was.
——a————
333
Q. What were those discussions?
A. Well, I think when I talked to Slocomb, it was
mentioned that I should, if we could obtain a safe
place to keep Logue, we should return him to jail.
I don’t remember exactly at what point.
Q. Did you Subsequently receive instructions con-
cerning the conditions of the Nueces County Jail
as far as receiving this prisoner?
A. Yes, at this point I recall that my phone in
the Marshal’s office was inoperative, Something was
wrong with it, I had trouble because I [446] believe
I received a call from the Marshal’s office in Laredo
through the United States Clerk’s Office, and I be-
lieve they called me at the phone, and he said he
had been trying to get me. And I think at that point
I found out that my phone was not performing, and
I told him my phone was out, and he said he would
call the jail himself from Laredo and talk direct to
Corpus Christi.
Q. Who was this call from, from Laredo?
A. Jones.
Q. What purpose was there in calling the jail in
Corpus?
A. To make arrangements to keep Logue. It was
my understanding from the conversation with him
later, that he did call, in fact, Tom Lowrance, the
Chief Jailer, and talk to him about fixing a cell and
a safe place to keep Logue. In fact, he told me he
had talked to him and they were preparing a place.
Q. Why was it necessary to especially prepare a
cell for safekeeping of a prisoner like Logue?
A. Well, I believe Dr. Gwin, he said that if we
were going to bring the boy back to jail, we should
—— gts
334
have a safe place to keep him because of [447] the
attempt of his taking his life.
q@. I think we have covered this before, but why
was the boy taken from the jail to the hospital in
the first place?
A. Because he attempted to commit suicide and
injured his arm.
Q. By what means?
A. I believe he used a razor blade, if I’m not mis-
taken. I don’t recall if I actually knew what he used,
I think it was a razor blade.
Q. He tried to cut his arm?
A. He did cut his arm, pretty severely.
Q. And because of that he was taken from the
Nueces Jail to the hospital in Corpus Christi?
A. That’s right.
Q. After Deputy Jones indicated to you that ar-
rangements would be made at the jail for safekeep-
ing, did you do anything then?
A. Yes, I went to the jail. In fact, he instructed
me to go to the jail and make an inspection of the
cell. ,
Q. Of the cell Logue was to be put in?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you make that inspection?
A. I did make that inspection.
[448] Q. What did you look for?
A Well, for any sharp instruments, anything that
he could injure himself with, cut himself with. We,
normally, in a cell like that, we strip everything out
of it, any cups, or spoons, or sheets, or blankets, and
just have the mattress is all.
Q. Did you do that in this instance?
Se ekkaaes aoe ak Se toe y s
»
335
A. Yes.
Q. Were there any sheets, blankets, spoons, or
cups that you had to take out of this cell?
A. No, they had already taken everything out.
Q. The Sheriff’s Deputy had already taken care of
the cell?
A. Yes, the jail personnel.
Q. And you went over there and you inspected it,
and what was in the cell?
v4. Just a bunk with a mattress, and, I believe,
just a commode, just a jail type commode, it doesn’t
have a lid or anything on it, and I believe a wash
basin, the best I recall.
Q. There was no pad on the bunk, just a mattress?
A. Just a mattress.
Q. And what else in the cell?
A. Yes.
[449] Mr. Pain: Excuse me, I read the question
wrong—
By Mr? Pain:
Q. And that was in the cell?
A. Yes.
Q. No other loose objects?
A. No.
Q. Were there any light fixtures attached to a
hanging cord from the ceiling?
A. No, not that I recall.
Q. What did you do after inspecting the cell that
you anticipated Reagan Logue would be transferred
to?
336
A. To the best of my recollection, I went back to
the office and called Dr. Gwin.
Q. All right, what did you tell him, or ask him?
A. I told him we had made arrangements to keep
Logue in the Nueces County Jail. They had prepared
a cell, and that I had inspected it, and it was my
judgment that it was a safe place to keep him.
Q. What did he say then?
A. He said that under these conditions he would
release him, and I asked him if he would call the
nurse on duty and so inform her, and he [450] said
he would.
Q. Did you tell the doctor that you had inspected
the cell? eee ee
A. Yes, I did. I told him at the same time that
a Court Order was forthcoming, I had already been
instructed by the Marshal in Laredo, my supervisor,
that Judge Connally said he would issue such a Court
Order to have him removed as soon as possible to
an institution, and I had been informed by my
superiors that they would remove him to an institu-
tion as soon as possible. And he said under these con-
ditions, I will release him to you.
Q. And he did release him?
A. Yes, sir, I went to the hospital about 3:15 that
afternoon, and I checked with the nurse in charge
on this floor, and she told me Dr. Gwin had called
her and told her to release Logue to me. And shortly
after that, I took him in my car back to the jail,
and I again inspected the cell. Prior to putting him
in the cell, I walked to the cell and checked it again,
and they put him in the cell and locked him up,
and I left. And I didn’t have any further contact
337
with him at all after that. [451] I went back to,
that afternoon—I don’t remember exactly what time
it was, but it was, I’m sure, after 4:30, and I went
back to my duty station in Edinburg, or I left Corpus
' Christi in route to Edinburg.
Q. Now this day you talked with the doctor, and
inspected the jail, and talked with Dr. Gwin about
the boy’s release, and assured the doctor that there
was a Safe place to keep the boy, and also when you
took the boy from the hospital to the jail upon the
doctor’s release, this was all on May 24th, 1968, is
that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Did you ever see Dr. White?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. The only contact you had with him was by
telephone?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. About how long was that telephone conversa-
tion?
A. Well, the best I recall, it : ceubaliy didn’t last
over two or three minutes at the most.
Q. And either during, or immediately after this
telephone conversation with Dr. White, did you have
the understanding that Dr. White was Reagan
Logué’s doctor?
[452] A. It was my understanding that Dr. White
was the physician on duty in the emergency room
when he was brought into the room for hospital
treatment. I assumed he was still his doctor, if he
treated him, until I was told by Dr. White, or pos-
sibly one of the nurses.
Q. I think you testified that Dr. White’s conversa-
in Aes
x ¢ -
338
tion with you was to the effect that Dr. Gwin was
the boy’s doctor, and my question was, either during
or right after this conversation over the telephone
that you had with Dr. White, what understanding
did you have as to the boy’s doctor?
A. Dr. Gwin was his doctor.
Q. And as far as anything to be done to the boy,
or with the boy, was it your understanding that you
would have to go through Dr. Gwin?
A. That is absolutely right.
*
(Discussion held off of the record.)
Mr. De Anda: Your Honor, this is cross examina-
tion. ;
The Court: All right.
[453] CROSS EXAMINATION
By Mr. De Anda: :
Q. Mr. Bowers, you have mentionst a conversation
with Dr, Gwin pertaining to the boy when you re-
turned to the room in which the boy was confined
in the hospital. Did you have occasion to see the room
and examine it? 4
A. I stood in the door, just glanced in the room,
I never did actually go in the room where the’ boy
was. I just stood in the door and looked around.
Q. Well, was it a regular type hospital room, or
did it have any kind of additional security measures,
like you see in the cell, was it more like a cell than
a hospital room?
_
339
A. Well, I would say that it looked like a normal
hospital room except it had a locked door, and they
had taken all of the furniture out of the room, and
there wasn’t nothin’ in the room except the mattress.
I don’t recall what the window had, whether it was
barred or not, I don’t recall, but I do know the room
was stripped of furniture.
Q. You do know the Memorial Hospital is where
they [454] keep the psychiatric cases?
A. I didn’t know it until I went up there, and that
was my first and last time I had been up there.
Q: And I believe you said earlier you were some-
what concerned about the boy, about being sure the
boy had a guard at the hospital at all times for his
own safety, as well as the safety of others?
A. My concern was for the security of the prisoner,
that he did not escape. As far as his saféty in the
room, the guard did not stay in the room with him,
the guard stayed out the door. He was posted outside
the door. As far as his safety in this particular room,
why, I don’t think the guard actually had any func-
tion there because they were going in and out of his
room all the time.
Q. The guard could hear anything that went on
in the room?
A. I believe he could hear anything that went on
in the room.
Q. Now in your conversation with Dr. White, you
emphasized, I believe, his condition, the boy’s con-
dition with reference to his arm and the wound that
he had inflicted on his arm?
[455] A. Yes.
Q. And what your conversation with Dr. White was
=
340
relating to, at least your questions related to the
boy’s physical condition?
A. Yes.
Q. As distinguished from the boy’s mental condi-
tion?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the reason that you distinguished be-
tween the two conditions? What difference did it
make to you why he was in the hospital, hospital-
ized?
A. Well, it was, I was very conterned why he was
there. He was a prisoner in my custody, and if he
had inflicted wounds on his arm, I wanted to know
the condition of them. .
Q. How about his mental condition, were you also
interested in that?
A. Certainly.
Q. Would it have made any difference to you if he
was confined to the hospital because of his mental
condition, or confined in the hospital because of his
physical condition, insofar as keeping him in the
_ hospital was concerned?
A. Well, I don’t know just exactly how to answer
your question. At this point, of course, when [456]
I went to the hospital, I thought he was confined to
the hospital because of the injury to his arm. I, at
this point, I didn’t know anything about’ his condi-
tion other than the injury to his arm.
Q. Well, you, somewhere along the way there, in
your conversations with Dr. Gwin or Dr. White, or
both, you became aware of his mental condition?
A. Oh, yes, certainly.
Q. And you were concerned about it?
P
—_—
341
A. Yes. \
Q. Is that right?
A. Oh, yes, certainly.
Q. Did it make any difference to you whether he
was in the hospital because of his mental condition,
or because of his arm, insofar as your decision to let
him remain in the hospital?
A. Well, it wasn’t my decision to make, to leave
him in the hospital. My superiors made that decision.
I did not make that decision.
Q. So far as you would—excuse me, let me start
over—so far as you know, would that fact enter into
_ your superior’s making that decision, whether or not
he was in there for a physical condition or whether
he was in there [457] for a mental condition?
A. It Was the policy to keep a person in the jail,
or the place we have a contract to detain our prison-
ers, and not to keep them in the hospital unless it
is absolutely necessary, unless the doctor orders him
kept in the hospital. Certainly, if the man cuts him-
self, he would have to go to the hospital for treat-
ment, but immediately upon release from the hos-
pital, or from the doctor, we normally take him back
to the jail. And I think even with a mental condition,
if you have a safe place to keep them in, if the doctor
Says it is okay to return the man back to the jail,
I would treat the physical condition the Same as I
would a mental condition, if the doctor released him
back, to go back to jail, I would return him back to
jail, of course.
Q. Were you under the impression at that time
that if a man had a mental condition, whether it was
342
one that required hospitalization or not, but didn’t
have a physical condition that required hospitaliza-
tion, that you had to take him back to jail?
A. Would you state that question again?
[458] Q. All right, were you under the impression at
that time, either because of what your superiors told
you, or because of your own interpretation of your
rules and regulations, that you were under the im-
pression at that time that if a man was only suffer-
ing from a mental condition, as distinguished from
a physical condition, that you would have to take
him back to jail regardless of whether or not he
ought to be in the hospital?
A. No, I think I still say it would be up to the
doctor, what the doctor would say.
Q. All right, in other words, if the doctor said
there is nothing physically wrong with this man, his
arm doesn’t require any kind of hospitalization, but
he is mentally disturbed, and because he is mentally
disturbed he ought to be in the hospital, if the doctor
had told you that, then you would make no effort to
take him out of the hospital?
A. Mr. De Anda, I couldn’t take him out unless
the doctor released him. I certainly wouldn’t take a
man from the hospital and take him back to jail
unless the doctor released him. I say this, if it’s,
whether it’s physically or [459] otherwise, if he re-
leased him to take him back to jail, certainly, I would
take him back to jail.
Q. Did you have any problems with Dr. White or
Dr. Gwin about taking this man out of the hospital?
A. I had no problem with Dr. White. I only talked
with him a very short time. I had no problem with
Dr. Gwin at all.
cael
Q. You didn’t have to convince Dr. Gwin that you
had to take the man back to jail?
A. No.
Q. Why is it that you were taking all these pre-
cautions and calling back to Dr. Gwin after you had
been instructed to take the man back to jail?
A. I had been instructed by my superiors not to
take him out of the hospital unless I had a release
from Dr. Gwin, very specific instructions, that is why
I called him back.
Q. Well, when was it Dr. Gwin finally released the
man to go back to jail, as best you recall, if he did
release him to go back to jail?
A. He did release him.
Q. All right, that is your version of it. Now if [460]
Dr. Gwin said the only reason he released him was
because he felt he had no choice, because of his con-
versations with you or some other member of the
Marshal’s office, would you agree with that state-
ment?
A. No, sir.
Q. All right.
A. I certainly wouldn’t, and I don’t think Dr. Gwin
Said that. He didn’t say that to me.
Q. Now—
A. —And the point of Dr. Gwin releasing the man,
there is no doubt he released him. I talked to him
personally and he said if we had a safe place to keep
him, he would release the man.
Q. Now you say you had a conversation in Mr.
Foster’s presence with Mr. Jones, a phone conversa-
tion?
343
344
A. I don’t recall whether I had it when Mr. Foster
came in the office—I believe that—I don’t know
whether I was talking to him, talking to Jones when
he came in the office, or whether I called him after
he came in. It is possible I may have talked to him
and called him back when Mr. Foster came in.
Q. Do you recall in that conversation mentioning
[461] you hadn’t been home for a couple of week-
ends, but you would be willing to stay in Corpus
Christi and guard Mr. Logue?
A. I don’t know how long I had not been home. .
That is too long to remember. On several occasions
I would be gone from home two or three weeks at a
time. Whether I made the comment I would stay
there and guard him, it is possible I made that re-
mark, I don’t recall that I did.
Q. All right.
A. It is for sure that if I couldn’t have obtained
a guard, I would have been there guarding him.
Q. Well—
A. —It would have been my duty to.
Q. And were you trying to convince Mr. Jones to
permit you to stay there and guard Mr. Logue, or to
keep him in the hospital?
A. Mr. De Anda, I don’t recall. I know I was con-
cerned about the young man.
Q. All right.
A. I can’t—certainly, I have to be frank with you,
I was definitely concerned about him. Whether I
made the remark I would stay there, I don’t recall.
Q. Did you tell Mr. Jones that the doctors had
[462] stated the boy ought to remain in the hos-
pital?
=
3
:
345
A. I don’t recall making that statement. I know
that the doctor did say that he should Stay there if
we didn’t have a safe place to keep him.
Q. Did you, did the doctor tell you he should stay
there unless he was transferred to another medical
facility? Do you recall him telling you that?
A. No, I remember him Saying he should be trans-
ferred to a mental institution for observation as soon
as possible.
Q. All right, didn’t the doctor tell you that he
ought to be transferred from the hospital to some
other mental institution or medical facility, do you
recall that, Mr. Bowers?
A. I believe that particular statement was made
before we discussed about a safe place to keep him.
Q. In other words, the doctor did not recommend
that you take him to any place other than a medical
facility—
A. —Unless we had a safe place to keep him.
Q. Did he specify, did the doctor Specify what he
meant by a safe place to keep him?
[463] A. I don’t recall him actually laying down the
ABC rules, or anything; he just took, I took it he
meant a place without instruments that he could in-
flict wounds on himself, or harm himself, that is
what I—
Q. —Did you also take it to mean he ought to be
under any sort of observation?
A. I don’t recall him Saying anything about he
should be kept under observation. I think as a pracai-
cal matter, that a person under those conditions
should be kept under observation. I don’t recall him
Specifically saying that.
@
3 + ang
— >
346
Q. In other words, you believe he should have been
kept under observation while in jail, under the con-
ditions? :
A. Yes, I think he should have. In fact, I think that
was, we understood that he would be under observa-
tion.
Q. Now there were some discussions at the jail that
this would be one of the conditions that would make
the cell safe, would that—strike that and let me start
again— Now, there was some discussion at the jail
that this would be one of the conditions that would
make the cell safe, would be that he would be kept
under constant [464] . observation?
A. I don’t know whether the word “constant” was
used, but that someone would be watching him, or
he would be under observation. Whether it would be
constant observation, I don’t recall that ever being
used.
Q. May not have used the words, but somebody
ought to be watching him while he was there?
A. Yes.
Q. Was this suggestion made to you, Mr. Bowers?
A. The best I recall, I believe that when Deputy
Jones talked to Tom Lowrance, there was some men-
tion of putting him in a cell where he could be ob-
served, or possibly put him with a trustee in a cell next
to him where they could watch him, and that was my
understanding of what would be done.
Q. Of course, you were aware he had this bandage,
this hand and arm wrapped in this bandage?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were aware of the kind of bandage it
was?
Ce ae oe a ee eee ane RET RGA TER
347
A. No, I wasn’t aware of what kind of bandage it
was. I didn’t know whether it was just a—I have
thought quite often since then, trying [465] to re-
call what kind of bandage he had on his arm, and
I honestly couldn’t tell you whether it was a wrap-
around or whether it was a, what do you call it, a
bandage they make up—
Q: —Gauze pad?
A. Right, with tape on it.
Q. You know now that it was a long bandage?
A. I don’t know, but I heard he had a bandage
that was strong enough to hold his weight.
Q. All right.
A. May I say something off of the record?
Mr. De Anda: Well, we decided for you not to say
anything off of the record. And the next question is—
By Mr. Anda:
Q. As far as you know, was anybody in the
Marshal’s Office, either you or anyone else, under the
impression that you had no funds or authority pro- |
vided to keep a man in the hospital for a mental
condition that was under your care and charge?
A. Well, it has been my understanding that as a
practical matter, that if you have got a man in the
hospital, as soon as you obtain a release from the
doctor, you should put him back in the [466] jail
*pécause keeping him in the hospital is a tremendous
cost to the taxpayers..
Q. You didn’t answer my question, but maybe—so
far as you know, were either you or anybody else in
the Marshal’s Office connected with this transaction,
348
under the impression that you could not keep a man
in a hospital, like Memorial Hospital, strictly for a
mental condition?
A. I’m going to answer your question exactly like
I did before, that it was my understanding, my only
understanding would be that you would not keep a
man in a hospital for any reason if you could keep
him in the jail; if you could return him to the jail
since the doctor released him. I know nothing about
the difference between a physical and a mental con-
dition, or about what funds are available or any-
thing, except that trying to get the man to stop the
expenses as soon as practical, and as soon as the
doctor releases him.
Q. As I understand you, and tell me if I understand
you right, you see no difference of anyone that is in-
dicated otherwise, but whether a man is in the hos-
pital, if he be in the hospital for [467] a mental
condition or for a physical condition, he could come
out of the hospital if the doctor said it was proper for
him to do so?
A. That is right.
Q. And if the doctor said it was not proper for
him to be out of the hospital, that he should stay
in the hospital even though he might not have any-
thing physically wrong with him, it might be a
mental situation—
A. —That is true, the doctor, what he would say
would be the determining factor as far as I am
concerned, and has always been the determining
factor when I put a man in the hospital or take
him out.
Q. Well, when was it that the doctor finally told
To nia aie eta!
PRAM HEIR I ey MY y
.
4
349
you that it was all right to release him from the
hospital? )
A. When I called him and told him we had a safe
place to keep the man.
Q. From the jail, you called him from the jail?
A. No, I think I called him from the Office.
Q. All right, you say that every time you observed
him laying in the hospital, he was lying on this
mattress?
A. Mr. De Anda, the only time I actually recall
[468] seeing the boy was when I first went to the
hospital that morning.
Q. All right.
A. And looking in the door, and he was laying on
this mattress. Whether he was asleep or what, I, I
don’t remember having any conversation with him
whatsoever.
Q. Anyway, he was laying on the mattress whether
he was awake or asleep?
A. Then when the doctor, Mr. Gwin, went upstairs
to look at the boy, I recall I went back with him,
and I think I stood at the door. I don’t, I can’t recall
whether he had any conversation with him or not.
Q. Where was the boy then?
A. Well, the best I recall, he was still laying on
the mattress.
Q. All right, now when you went in to get him to
take him to jail, did you do that by. yourself, or
did someone go with you?
A. Well, I actually took him myself, but there was
a Deputy on duty there guarding at the time, I
don’t recall his name.
Q. It would be someone from the Sheriff’s Office?
350
A. Yes, it was one of the Deputy Sheriffs-from the
[469] Sheriff’s Office.
Q. Now when you went in to get him, was he still
laying on the mattress?
A. I don’t recall whether he was laying on the
mattress at that time or not. He was in the room, I
know that, but I don’t recall. ;
Q. Did you have to assist him in any way to take
him to jail?
A. No, other than just—you mean carry him or
anything like that? 3
Q. Carry.
A. No, I didn’t have to carry him. I believe that
he was possibly kinda wobbly on his feet, or some-
thing, but I didn’t have to carry him. He went under
his own power.
Q. If I remember, the doctor said something about
him being under heavy sedation—
A. —It’s possible he could have been.
Q. Did you have to assist him, not in a sense you
had to carry him, but in a sense you hadsto help
him along? I don’t mean you were fighting, you say
he was wobbly, was he wobbly enough to where you
had to hold him up?
A. I didn’t have to hold him up. I may have had
to lead him, maybe put my arm under his arm, but
[470] I know he went under his own power. The best
I recall, he was a little wobbly, and possibly might
have been under sedation, I don’t know. He did walk
by himself, I know.
Q. Did you have any eoueotaations with his mother
there at the hospital?
g
351
A. Yes, I believe that there was a lady, this was
a different lady than was at the house when I ar-
rested him, and it was my understanding this was his
real mother. She was concerned about his clothes, I
believe, and I told her, because when I took him from
the hospital, I took him with his pajamas. He had
on, I believe, a short-sleeved shirt and short pants,
and she was concerned about his clothes. And I told
her just to keep his clothes and she could bring them
to the jail. I believe she wanted to ride with him and
I told her she couldn’t. We didn’t have very much of
a conversation. I think the best I recall she was con-
cerned about his clothes. In fact, I think she had
took his clothes home to wash them for him, and
she had brought them baek to him and wanted to
know what to do with them.
Q. Do you recall telling Mr. Foster that you had
[471] been advised by Dr. Gwin when you were there
in your office in this telephone conversation, and you
saw Mr. Foster walk in, do you recall telling Mr.
Foster that Dr. Gwin had told you that under no
circumstances should the young man be returned to
the County Jail, but that he should be retained in
the hospital under the doctor’s care?
A. I don’t. recall making that statement. I may
have said the doctor didn’t want him taken out of the
hospital unless we had a safe place to keep him. Dr.
Gwin was very concerned about him, there is no doubt
about it.
Q. I know this happened some time back, Mr.
Bowers, and I’m not trying to badger you or anything.
A. I don’t recall that specific conversation.
Q. But you do know, and you do remember that
| Be
i id Loft vay
352
Dr. Gwin was quite ed about the young man
going anywhere other to another hospital?
A. Yes, he was. In fact, I think Mr. Foster—in fact,
the fact is I think Mr. Foster, we all were.
Q. I'see,.and you were concerned enough about it
to where you went to the jail and made a visual in-
spection of the cell itself? 3
[472] A. Yes, I sure did.
Q. And in fact, you really, did you make two in-
spections?
A. Yes, I made one just after I took him upstairs,
and while we were holding him kind of in the run-
around, I went back and checked the cell again be-
cause, the best I recall, the door had been left open.
Q. And the reason was Dr. Gwin had expressed all
his concerns to you, and also because you knew the
boy had already tried to kill himself, so you knew
he was serious about suicide?
A. There was no doubt in my mind he was.
Q. Yes, and it was your understanding when you
left him there in the County Jail, that he would be
kept under a sort of surveillance or observation while
he was there?
A. That was my understanding, yes.
Q. And.that, plus the fact that he was in this cell
where there appeared to be nothing with which he
could injure himself, is what made you tell the doc-
tor that you had a safe place for him?
A. I told him I thought, in my judgment, we had
a safe place to keep him.
[473] Q. That was because of these facts we have
talked about?
A. Yes.
IR NNR SHH TTR TOE ; ¥
r
’
| ee. ‘
re
353
Q. And had the cell contained foreign objects and
things, or had he not been under observation or sur-
veillance, then you would not have considered it as
a safe place?
A. That is correct.
Q. And you would not. have made that statement
to Dr. Gwin?
A. I certainly wouldn’t.
Q. Who was it that instructed you to return the
prisoner to the jail, Mr. Bowers?
A. Well, I don’t recall of anybody instructing me
to take him back, other than my instructions were
to go make an inspection of the jail to see if the cell
was safe. I had been told that by my supervisor, that
he had contacted the jailer and that a safe place
would be prepared and they would watch him and
take care of him.
Q. That was Mr. Jones?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Slocomb is a Chief Deputy?
A. Yes.
Q. And what would Mr. Jones be?
[474] A. Supervisor.
Q. And you would be working under him?
A. Yes.
Q. And all your decisions you made, and all the
things you did, and all of your actions pertaining to
Mr. Logue and the removal of Logue from the hos-
pital, and his confinement in jail, all these things
that we have talked about, you did as a U. S. Mar-
shal, a Deputy Marshal?
A. Yes.
354
Q. And it was in the scope of your authority and
your employment?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When you first arrested Logue at his home, you
say he had to dress; how was he dressed when you
first saw him?
A. He just had on a pair of levis“
Q. No shirt?
A. No shirt.
Q. No undershirt?
A. No undershirt, no shoes or socks.
Q. You mentioned something about a brown paper
sack in the room, did you look at it, or look in it?
A. I think I picked it up and smelled of it. It [475]
was empty. It was just a large paper sack, about a
medium shopping bag size, with the edges turned
down about a third of the way down. There wasn’t
anything in it, just smelled real strong of glue.
Q. Would you say the whole house smelled strongly
of glue?
A. Yes, immediately on coming in the front door
in the hallway, you could smell the smell, and as I
got to the room, it was a little stronger.
Q. You didn’t have any conversation with him or
with his mother or anyone there in the house about
the glue smell?
A. No, I certainly didn’t.
Q. All right.
A. I just observed this, and the fact, I think I men-
tioned it to the Customs Agents while we were there,
made some remark about it.
Q. You say that whenever you got to the jail, that
Logue identified himself as God Logue?
RARE NR IS 3 Y
-
355
A. Right, (spelling) G-O-D is what he said.
Q. Is that how he spelled it?
A. Yes, he spelled it out.
Q. Then I believe you said something about—
Mr. De Anda: —Time out, let me see here [476]
what I asked, Judge, if I might. That’s going into
the matter that the Court excluded, and I’m going
to skip this question.
Mr. Pain: Your Honor, it’s his own question.
‘
Mr. De Anda: Well, I don’t care whose question
it is.
Mr. Pain: I think he should be allowed to read his
own questions that he asked.
Mr. De Anda: I will read my questions, the ques-
tions I would not object to the answers, Your Honor.
The Court: You said the Court excluded?
Mr. De Anda: Yes, sir, with reference to the volun-
tary, or comments, Judge, when he was first booked
at the, this was a discovery, discovery deposition, and
I don’t think I am bound to read every bit of it. He
can read it if he wants to, and if the Court rules it
is admissible—
The Court: —I think you can get it that way, I
_ just don’t know—
Mr. De Anda: —Judge, let’s go ahead and I will
read it, that will save time.
356
[477] The Court: All right.
By Mr. De Anda:
Q. Then I believe you said something about the
jailer there saying, well, he didn’t have to get any
information from him because he had the informa-
tion?
A. He said he wouldn’t give his address, his age,
or anything, any normal thing that they ask a man,
and he said, “Well, it’s okay, we have got his report
back; we have had him a couple of weeks ago.”
Q. And was Logue’s demeanor at the time that of
@ person mentally off, he wasn’t just trying to be a
smart guy?
A. No, Mr. De Anda, I would say he was pretty
high.
Q. In other words, his reactions and his responses
were not that of a wise guy?
A. No, it was—
Q. —But rather a man, or a person who did not
have possession of his mental faculties for whatever
reason there might have been?
A. Well, I don’t know exactly how to answer your
question. He was not in his normal state. He was
under the influence of something.
Q. It was an abnormal reaction rather than a
[478] resentful reaction to the questioning?
A. Well, I think he was resentful to the fact he
was being arrested, and he didn’t know why he was
being arrested. This case, I understand, was a con-
spiracy case he was involved in, and the fact, I don’t
believe he was actually caught with this marijuana,
and he possibly didn’t understand the circumstances
STATOR AP SEIN TS OT “4 Lk
—
of conspiracy charges, and I think that he was con-
cerned with his case he had pending the next day
before Judge Roberts, and that, and the fact he was
being taken to jail. He was upset, but I wouldn’t say
he was belligerent, or trying to be smart or anything.
Q. Now at home when you arrested him, you did
not know him?
A. No, I had never seen him before.
Q. Did you ask him who he was?
A. Yes, when he came to the front door I asked if
he was Reagan Logue, yes..
Q. He did acknowledge that?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. All right, when you talked to Dr. Gwin the last
time that you talked to him, before getting Logue
out of jail, I believe you went into some [479] de-
tail about describing to Dr. Gwin the surroundings
and the situation that existed in the jail, and the
conditions under which Logue would be confined?
A. No, sir, I don’t remember going into detail with
anything other than telling him I had inspected the
cell, and I considered it a safe place to keep him.
Q. I believe you mentioned also the fact that he
would be kept under surveillance, those were the
things you talked to him about?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was after that, that Dr. Gwin told you,
well, it would be all right to get him out of ‘the hos-
pital? .
A. He said, “Under those circumstances, I will re-
lease him to you.”
Q. All right, did you ever talk to Mr. Vaught, How-
357
=
a
ard Vaught, about this situation while Reagan was
still in the hospital?
A. Mr. De Anda, I don’t remember when I talked
to Mr. Vaught. I do know I had a conversation with
him concerning this boy. My understanding, I be-
lieve he had had the boy on a, maybe probation, or
probation investigation, pre-sentence [480] investi-
gation on the boy. I do recall having some conver-
sation about the boy, and I remember at the time
I was concerned about the boy. I recall my conversa-
tion with him concerned his call to Chief Deputy
Slocomb and with Mr. Lowrance, the Chief Jailer,
and possibly there was some other conversation con-
cerning Mr. Logue about it, but I don’t recall.
Q. Didn’t Mr. Vaught suggest to you that Logue
should not be returned to jail, but rather kept in the
hospital?
A. I don’t recall him making that statement. He
possibly could have, but I don’t recall it. I don’t think
that, well, not that I wouldn’t have listened to Mr.
Vaught’s suggestion along that line, but I don’t think
he would have—what he would have said would have
made any difference because it was up to the doctor.
I won’t say he didn’t say it, but I don’t recall him
Saying it.
Q. I understand you took your orders from Mr.
Slocomb and from Mr. Jones, and if there was a
conflict between theif orders and Mr. Vaught’s sug-
gestions, or orders, or what you may want to call
them, you would have listened to your [481] super-
iors, that was your obligation?
A. That is right.
358
PL LEEST LOA NNT A OM ert ti +3 t ra
359
Q. As a matter of fact, if your superiors told you
to take Logue out of jail, regardless of what Dr. Gwin
said, you would have taken him out of jail? I mean
you would have taken him out of the hospital, ex-
cuse me?
A. No, I don’t believe I would have.
Q. In other words—
A. —I don’t think, to begin with, my superiors
would have told me to take a man from a doctor’s
care without the doctor’s okay. They would never
have told me that. If they had, I think I would have
—I don’t think I would have taken him out under
those circumstances because I was directly respon-
sible for the man, or at least I felt I was. I was on
the scene and, was there, but they wouldn’t have told
me that.
Q. I’m not saying they did, I’m just saying if they
had.
A. All right.
Q. Did you talk to anyone else other than Mr.
Slocomb and Mr. Jones about this problem, about
Logue and his confinement in the hospital, and his
removal to the jail?
[482] A. I’m sure I had conversations with several
people.
Q. I’m sorry, nobody else in the Marshal’s’ Office?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. All right, now what conversations do you re-
call you had with Mr. Slocomb? How did he enter
into any direct conversations with you?
A. After I reported all of this to my superior, Jones,
in Laredo, he instructed me to report this to Chief
Deputy Slocomb, which I did.
360
Q. Now by “this”, what do you mean, what was it
that he told you to report to Slocomb?
A. The fact that the boy had, well, he already
knew the boy had attempted suicide, but he told me
to call him and let him know what had happened,
what the doctor said, and inform him about this, the
efforts to obtain a Court Order to remove the boy to
an institution. Mr. De Anda, before we can remove
a prisoner at all under the set-up at that time, and
I understand it is the same set-up, we have to go
through what we call a Prisoners Coordinating outfit
in Washington, which authorizes the movement of
these prisoners in Washington. And I believe my con-
versation [483] with Mr. Slocomb was to report to
him what we were trying to do, or what we were
attempting to do, where he could let the people in
Washington know that there was this pending Court
Order, they could make arrangements for trans-
portation for the man. Mr. Slocomb was to let them
know what we were trying to do, get this man re-
moved.
Q. That is, take him to the mental facility, to a
medical facility?
A. Yes.
Q. It had nothing to do with his removal from the
hospital to the jail?
A. I am sure it had something to do with that,
too, the whole thing.
Q. You also talked with Mr. Slocomb about a de-
termination as to whether or not he should be re-
moved from the hospital to the jail?
A. No, I don’t remember talking to him about
whether he should be removed or not.
EMC OE ET IST GETS INEM AY STEIN TEP coe “y
———
- | 361
Q. Well, did you talk to Mr. Jones about removing
him from the hospital to the jail?
A. I’m sure in our conversations we had quite a
bit of discussions about it.
Q. In other words, your conversations pertaining
to the decision to remove Reagan Logue from the
[484] hospital and return him to jail, were with
Gerald Jones?
A. No, with Dr. Gwin.
Q. All right, you had no conversations with Jones
after that decision?
A. Oh, I’m certain that we talked about taking him
back to jail.
Q. All right.
A. I don’t think there is any doubt about that,
but the decision of whether to remove him or not, I
don’t think that was our decision to make. It was, I
think, Dr. Gwin’s decision.
Q. So you didn’t talk about that, or clear it with
him, or anything, because that was Strictly a de-
cision between you and Dr. Gwin?
A. Well, my first conversation, and my, in my con-
versation with Dr. Gwin, we discussed the fact of
getting this boy to an institution as soon as pos-
sible, and where we would keep him in the mean-
time.
Q. Yes, and—pardon me—
A. —And he said if we had a safe place to keep
him in the jail, if there was a safe place there, he
would release him if we were sure it was safe. And this
information was conveyed to [485] Jones and to,
I’m sure to Slocomb, both.
Q. What did Jones say about it?
362
A. Well—
Q. —If you recall.
A. Well, at this point I think it is about the time
my phone went out, and he said, when I talked to
him in the Clerk’s Office, he said, “I'll take care of
it.’ And in the meantime, I was getting the phone
men to work on the phone, and somewhere, in a
couple of hours, we had the phone working and we
had the conversation. I believe that is when Mr. Fos-
ter was in there and it was still working.
Q. And these were conversations with J ones?
A. Yes, we talked, I’m sure, four or five times that
day.
Q. Now your conversations with Slocomb did not
pertain to this business about getting him out of the
hospital and putting him in jail, but rather pertained
to getting him transferred to a medical facility, a
federal medical facility?
A. No, that is not correct. I think we probably
talked about both things.
Q. All right.
A. Rather than just one.
[486] Q. Do you remember anything specific about
your conversation with Mr. Slocomb pertaining to
Reagan’s removal from the hospital and return to
jail?
A. Other than the fact he said to be sure you get
a release from the doctor, be sure the doctor releases
him to you before you take him back. In fact, the
best of my recollection is, that was my instructions
from both of my superiors.
Q. All right, then, let me get one other thing
PSY ERA REI NERS LAM HAI BIN MA SI ; s
straight, Mr. Bowers, as I understand it, no one in-
structed you to take Reagan Logue back to jail. This
was done by you, strictly based on your negotiations
and discussions with Dr. Gwin?
A. No, I couldn’t say that.
Q. I thought that is what you said. How do you
want to qualify that statement?
A. Well, I had no specific instructions from any-
body about taking\the boy back to jail, or leaving
him in the hospital, or anything. As I stated before,
the normal procedure is, when a person is committed,
a prisoner is committed to the hospital, that you, as
soon as it is practical, and as soon as the doctor will
[487] release the man, is that you take him back to
the institution that you take him out of, as a prac-
tical matter. And this is something we always do, and
always is assumed, is understood, and as far as any-
body making a decision to bring him back, I don’t
recall anybody making a decision Saying, “Take this
man back.” But since the doctor released him, we
would take him back, and I didn’t Say anybody gave
specific orders to take him out of the hospital.
Q. Now in the usual case, does the doctor, or have
someone call at the hospital, have someone call the
Marshal’s Office and say, “This man is going to be
released,” or make arrangements to pick him up, or
how is that done?
A. It is handled all kinds of ways. It is owing to
what hospital that you are connected with. I would
Say that if I was in my home station where I know
the doctors, know them personally, and if I had a
man in a hospital, he would probably tell me; if I
didn’t know the doctor, I probably would call him
363
364
and ask him when I could have this man and so
forth.
Q. You stated that you would call the doctor and
then the doctor might tell you, “Well, I will [488]
advise you when he is ready to be released, or I will
have your office notified,” is that the usual way it is
handled?
A. Well, L.can’t say that it would be, Mr. De Anda,
because I say, again, it is whatever the arrangements
are that you have, or possibly the understanding that
you have with the different institutions or different
hospitals, whether you would call the doctor or he
would call you. I don’t think that there is any policy
as far as—
Q. —I just wondered. Now, let me ask you this
question—you say first you called Dr. White and
determined that his arm did not require, his arm
wound did not require hospitalization at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you called Dr. Gwin?
A. I didn’t call Dr. Gwin; I waited until he made
his rounds.
Q. You went to the hospital?
A. I was at the hospital at this time. I was on the
floor at the nurse’s station where Logue was located
when I talked to Dr. White. All I had to do was sit
down and wait until he got there.
[489] Q. Now your purpose in going to the hospital
the first time was what?
A. To check on his condition, how he was. I mean,
I had a prisoner that had been taken out of jail
while I was gone, and he was committed to the hos-
pital and had a guard on him.
)
365
Q. So after you talked to Dr. Gwin the first time
and he told you that this man’s mental condition
was serious—
A. —That’s right—
Q. —certainly at that time he didn’t indicate to
you that he was going to release the man?
A. Mr. De Anda, I don’t know when the conversa-
tion took place pertaining to releasing the man. He
was concerned about getting him committed to an
institution for observation as soon as possible. There
was quite a bit of mention about a Court Order, about
his attorney, Mr. Foster, to contact the Assistant U.
S. Attorney in Laredo, to obtain a Court Order from
Judge Connally. It was possible there was a conver-
Sation about releasing him from the hospital and
putting him back at that time, but I don’t recall
when we talked about it.
Q. When was the first time you recall it was [490]
mentioned, that he be taken from the hospital and
back to jail? | : |
A. I don’t recall when it was. It was either at this
conversation, or I talked to him only on the phone
once, or twice on the phone, but at sometime we did
discuss it.
Q. And what did you say, well, Doctor, when you
discussed it with him—‘“Doctor, I am ready to take
this fellow back to jail, I will find a safe place for
him”? Something of that nature, or, “I want you to
release him”?
_A. I don’t recall how the conversation came about.
I just remember generally the doctor was concerned
about him, and concerned that he would be kept in -
366
a safe place, and that he would be removed as soon
as possible to an institution. But I don’t remember
exactly the—
Q. —Mr. Bowers, you have been referring to a
statement—
A. —I think you have a copy of it—
Q. —and just‘so we will be sure, we will go ahead
and attach this to your deposition.
A. You can attach a copy, but that is my personal
copy.
Q. All right. '
[491] A. That is all I have got on this case.
Q. You also brought some other papers with you.
q A. That is my logs for that particular month. I
3 will give you the logs that pertain to that day.
3 Q. Do the logs for that particular day, here are
: the logs for the three days involved, the 22nd, the
23rd, and 24th—
A. —Those logs represent expenses involved, and
normally they are not in detail of all the things I:
do, but, for instance, on that log, I don’t believe I
showed I went to the jail and made that inspection,
but I did. But I don’t think I showed it on my log,
the best I recall; it didn’t involve any miles, or not
very much. -
Q. I want to be sure I understand everything on
there. Let me ask you this—on the Daily Log for May
the 24th, you make mention, there is a comment,
“C-O-M-M”, is that, “Committed Logue to Nueces
County Jail, instructed jail personnel as to security
for the above prisoner,” and those were the instruc-
tions you have been talking about, the safe place to
ib Salty 5 ii ice BIG HES LEAT
367
keep him, and keep him under Surveillance and ob-
servation while he was in jail?
[492] A. Yes.
Q. That is what you are making reference to on
this Daily Log for May the 24th?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right, well, I will just—I don’t know if they
will be of any value to us, but I suppose we can have
a copy of these attached to the deposition. Also, do
you have any other written memoranda of any kind
that pertain to this event?
A. No, I don’t. '
Q. All right, have you made any other statement,
Mr. Bowers, written statement?
A. Yes, I made a Statement sometime after this.
I made a statement to the F.B.I. Agent Crossett at
Laredo. I don’t have a copy of that, and I couldn’t
tell you other than he asked me questions pertaining
to this event.
Q. I see, but there was a written statement and
you signed it?
A. I don’t recall whether I Signed a written state-
ment or not, I just couldn’t tel] you.
Q. Did he reduce it to writing in your presence?
A. I don’t think so, I don’t recall.
Q. All right, Mr. Bowers, do you recall any [493]
conversations at all pertaining to funds that might
be available to keep Reagan Logue in the hospital, or
the lack of funds for that purpose because of his
mental condition?
A. No, I would have no knowledge of what funds
were available. I may have said something about get-
ting the man back in jail, as far as the cost is con-
_
368
cerned, but as far as funds are concerned, I would
have no knowledge what funds would be available
for anything, other than the fact—
Q. —But you don’t remember getting into any con-
versation with them about it?
A. No, other than the fact as I stated before, that
it would co& Forty-eight Dollars a day for a guard.
Q. I’m not talking about the economy aspect of it,
were you worried about the economy?
A. The man’s condition, his safety and treatment
is the first concern. But at the point where he can
be removed, and for all practical purposes, I think
that he ought to be removed.
Q. I understand that, Mr. Bowers, but other than
any conversation about the cost or economy, that
3 was not mentioned?
[494] A. No.
Q. There is nothing that you can recall that tran-
spired to the effect, “Look, we just don’t have any
: allocation or any money to keep a man in jail be-
: cause he is mentally ill,” there was nothing like that?
. A. I never said anything about not having any
: money because I would have no knowledge of that.
: Q. I’m saying, there was no conversation about
; that fact?
A. No.
a Mr. Pain: Your Honor, there is about three, three
or four questions on Redirect Examination, it con-
tinues—
The Court: Let’s go ahead and finish it.
369
[495] REDIRECT EXAMINATION
By Mr. Pain:
Q. When you took Reagan Logue from the hospital
to the jail, how was he dressed?
A. From the hospital to the jail? He had on a pair
of shorty pajamas and a sport shirt that goes with
it, short-sleeved.
Q. And that is all he had on?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was the amount of clothes that he had
on at the time he was put into the jail, is that cor-
rect?
A. Yes.
Q. Now this report that you have periodically re-
ferred to in refreshing your recollection, it does not
necessarily contain all of what you have testified,
does it.
A. No, it does not. This is just a report that I made
to the Marshal concerning this incident.
Q. This-report, in the way you have used it today,
is merely to refresh your recollection of the times and
So forth, is that correct? }
A. That’s right, as far as certain times of the day,
I didn’t recall. I knew it was in the [496] morning,
but I didn’t recall exactly what time until I looked
at the report.
Q. And your independent recollection will supple-
ment whatever is in the report?
A. Yes.
Mr. De Anda: And then there’s a little more re-
cross—
370
RECROSS EXAMINATION
By Mr. De Anda:
Q. One other question, do you recall when you
made this written statement that we have been re-
ferring to, this report we have been referring to, Mr.
Bowers?
A. Dol recall what date?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No, but it was just shortly after this happened,
very shortly after, because I would have it, and it
is a requirement of the Marshal’s Office when any-
’ thing like that happens, you make a report imme-
diately after.
Q. This was made several days after, or was it?
, A. I would say probably within a week or ten days
: after it happened.
; [497] Q. I noticed that on here, the last statement
on the report is, that you made a statement to F.B.I.
Agent Harold Crossett at his office in McAllen about
this incident, and that that statement was made
several days later, so this statement was made even
after you made your report to the F.B.I.?
A. Evidently it was, from looking at the last line
in my report.
Q. And you don’t have any independent recollec-
tion of how many days or weeks after that, that
Tan aCe pt ean Cae
ORES
you—
A. —Not exactly—
Q. —prepared this written statement?
A. It was just shortly after it, but I would say a
week or ten days.
&
x
ST Sar RN ee Sate EAE ‘ 5 Sv.
4
4
%
4
4
B)
371
Mr. De Anda: Judge, I believe that is in entirety
the deposition of Mr. Bowers.
The Court: All right, it is after 9:00, and we will
recess until 9:00 o’clock in the morning.
[498] (And thereafter on January the 28th, 1971,
at 9:00 o’clock A.M., Court reconvened in the
above entitled and numbered Cause, all par-
ties present and presiding as before, and the
following proceedings were had, to-wit:)
The Court: Please be seated, Gentlemen.
All right, yesterday evening Mr. De Anda left a
few citations with me, and xerox copies, did you fur-
nish them with the citations that you left?
Mr. Bowers: Yes, Your Honor, they have handed
them to us this morning.
The Court: You May proceed.
Mr. Pain: Your Honor, at this time I will call Mr.
Jerry Jones.
The Court: Mr. Pain, is Dr. White going to come
back or are you going to bring—
Mr. Pain: —No, Sir, he is not coming, Your Honor,
and Dr. White has been notified.
The Court: All right.
372
[499] GERALD JONES,
was Called as the next witness on behalf of the Gov-
ernment, first being duly sworn to tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified as
follows, to-wit:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
By Mr. Pain:
Q. You were sworn earlier, were you not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Please state your name.
A. Gerald L. Jones.
Q. How are you employed, Mr. Jones?
A. I am Supervisory Deputy U. S. Marshal for the
Southern District of Texas.
Q. What is your area of supervision?
A. In actuality, I am the third man in the District
under the Chief Deputy; I have supervision over all
of the Deputies in practice; however, I supervise the
Deputies in far South Texas, and supervise the Dep-
uties in Houston.
Q. All right, and what, what counties does this
include that you supervise in South Texas?
; [500] A. Well, the three Divisions would be Laredo,
3 Brownsville, and Corpus Christi.
Q. That’s good, how long have you been employed
f as a U.S., or Deputy U.S. Marshal?
A. Twenty-two years, sir.
Q. And how long have you been employed as a
Supervisory Deputy U. S. Marshal?
A. Mr. Pain, I swear I don’t know, seven or eight
years, or more, I’m not sure.
= PT Oe Le ee ee Pe ee ee
SGT ELLE LINE SIE EL RLOAP OIA BLOT Oe ; ; x
373
Q. And where is your duty station?
A. Brownsville, Texas, at this time, sir.
Q. And your duties do cover Corpus Christi at
times, do they not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Laredo?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And Brownsville?
A. Yes, sir. .
Q: And other areas in that general area?
\ A. Yes, sir, on occasion, Houston, Galveston, and
Victoria.
Q. Would you explain your duties as Deputy U. S.
Marshal, and in your Capacity, also, as a Supervising
Deputy U. S. Marshal?.
_ A. I perform all the duties of a Fielé Deputy, and
[501] in addition thereto, I advise with and super-
vise the other boys in their duties. If they have prob-
lems that they are unsure of, it is quite often that
they call me for direction and supervision. —
Q. How many Deputies do you have under your
supervision?
A. Seven now, maybe eight.
Q. Now you have been present during the pro-
ceedings in this trial, and you have heard mentioned
the Deputy Marshal deal with Bowers, was he under
your suprevision in May of 1968?
A. Yes, sir, he was.
Q. And if he had any problem in connection with
the performance of his duties, that he did not think
he could solve himself, you would be the person that
he would go to first, is that correct?
A. Ordinarily, yes, sir.
374
Q. When was the first time that you had any
contact with the facts of this particular case here?
A. On May the 22nd I was in Court at Laredo. We
had quite a heavy docket there, we had had a Grand
Jury, I don’t know what day that May the [502]
22nd fell on, but I know that we had had a Grand
Jury immediately preceding that date. And I became
aware that there was a sealed indictment against
some eleven Defendants, of which Reagan Logue was
one, I know that some of the Defendants were already
in custody, and we received a warrant on the sealed
indictments for a number of other Defendants. I do
not, at this time, recall how many, but I know there
were two or more.
Q. And you received a warrant for the arrest of
Reagan Logue?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it was delivered to you for execution?
A. That is correct, sir.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I entered into a conversation with a number of
the Customs Agents who were there attending Court,
and endeavoring to ascertain some information about
the case, and where, the whereabouts of these De-
fendants, the facts surrounding the situation, and,
in other words, gathering all the information that I
could in order to effectuate the arrest of the indi-
viduals we wanted to arrest.
[503] Q. How did you go about toeffectuate their
arrest? ,
A. I believe that Mr. Bennett actually made the
telephone call on this particular Defendant, and I
think I called some other office somewhere in the
ree se ee . 2
en ane
i
|
4
4
3
i
4
3
3
4
AG LAEGER AD ETL I fortis CT v
375
Western District concerning another individual, but
Mr. Bennett called Deputy Marshal Bowers, who was
in Corpus Christi at the time in the absence of Mr.
Schorre, who was the only resident Deputy that we '
had here, and gave him all of the information that
we had. And before the conversation was over, I
was through, and I came in and I talked to Mr.
Bowers also.
Q. This was on the 22nd of May, 1968?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. Is that correct?
A. I recall Specifically that we did not have an
address in the case file for Reagan Edward Logue in
Laredo, and that through the conversations with
agents and everything, I told Mr. Bowers that the
agency service here had a, had an open file on this
young man and could give him the address and
probably help in locating the individual.
[504] Q. What next occurred after you delivered the
message, or had the message delivered to Mr. Bowers
for the arre&t of Reagan Logue?
A. In connection with this case?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. He called me back sometime that day, I am not
Sure of any time because I made no note of it, I
received telephone calls many times during the day—
Q. And dal |
A. —but he called me and told me that he had ar-
rested Reagan Logue, and gave me the circumstances
surrounding the arrest.
Q. What next occurred in connection with this
matter?
SRSA RD Andean tine Sobel alee a eae lade
376
A. I think the next time that I heard anything in
connection with the case was on May the 24th, two
days later, when Mr. Bowers called me in the morn-
ing and, and advised me that Logue: had cut himself
the previous day in the Nueces County Jail. Now he
had been absent at that time on a prisoner delivery
to Houston and Galveston, and the prisoner had been
removed to the hospital by the Sheriff’s Deputies.
He stated to me that Mr. Marvin Foster, Logue’s [505]
attorney, had requested that the treating doctor, that
Dr. Shannon Gwin, a local psychiatrist, had been al-
lowed to see Logue as a friend of the family, and that
Gwin had seen Logue and ordered him confined to
the psychiatric ward where he was at that time.
Q. What did you tell Bowers, if you recall, and
if you told him anything during this conversation?
A. It seems to me that his concern was guards, I
think, that it was nearing the week-end and he did
talk to me about the fact that he had been away
from home for some two or three weeks, and that
he was having problems locating guards, and he
didn’t quite know what to do about it.
Q. Why was he concerned about guards?
A. Because it would be necessary to retain guards
on a prisoner who was in the hospital, one who is
actually in our custody. I went into quite a discussion
with him about guards at that time; I asked him if,
_in his opinion, first, I asked him if he had visited
the psychiatric ward, and he stated that he had.
And I asked him if he thought it necessary to keep
guards on him, what was the condition of the psy-
chiatric ward, and I don’t know whether it was in
[506] this conversation or another one that he told
377
_
me, I don’t know whether he had actually seen the
psychiatric ward at that time or whether he said that
he would look into it and advise me of it, but essen-
tially he did tell me that in his opinion that the
‘psychiatric ward would not be a Suitable place to
keep the prisoner without a guard on him, due to
what he termed “loose key control” and the general
atmosphere of the situation.
Q. Now you have been a Deputy Marshal for some
twenty-two years, is that correct?
A. Yes, sir. .
Q. During that time you have become’familiar with
all the procedures and requirements of being a Deputy
U. S. Marshal and the Marshal’s Manual, is that cor-
rect?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is the ordinary procedure concerning
guards and a Federal prisoner who is transferred from
a jail to a hospital?
A. We always place a twenty-four hour guard on
that prisoner who is being kept anywhere outside of
the confines of a jail.
Q. Why is that?
[507] A. To prevent his escape.
Q. All right, now after this conversation with
Deputy. Bowers, what next occurred in connection
with this case?
A. I, I don’t know whether it was in the same
conversation, or in a subsequent conversation that we
had this discussion about the security of the psy-
chiatric ward there, and he did, though, tell me that
he, in his opinion, felt, it would not be safe to leave
Logue there without guards on him. And I advised
. i,
378 .
him that it was his responsibility, that he had better
get out and look up some guards, that he was not, he
was wanting to go home, and I told him, “Don’t you
leave unless the situation is as it should be, and that
it’s your problem, you are there, you handle it.”
Q. Now this was on the morning of the 24th?
A. Yes, sir, I, I am sure it was, yes.
Q. Do you recall talking to Marvin Foster that
morning?
A. Yes, sir, not, I do not specifically recall when
I talked to Mr. Foster, but I talked to Mr. Foster in
connection with a telephone conversation that I was
having with Mr. Bowers.
[508] Q. Did you have more than one telephone con-
versation with Mr Bowers and/or Mr. Foster during
the day of the 24th?
A. I had only one with Mr. Foster, but I had sev-
eral with Mr. Bowers, I know.
Q. Do you recall the next telephone conversation
that you may have had with Mr. Bowers after the
initial one?
A. I believe, I know that probably the last conver-
sation that I had with Mr. Bowers was when I was
directing him to remove Logue from the hospital and
remove him to the jail, and the arrangements that
were being made and so forth. Now I may have also
had another conversation with him concerning the
4244 Commitment Order that Mr. Foster had talked
to me about before.
_Q. Before we get to that last conversation with Mr.
Bowers, did you have any conversation with Casey
Slocomb?
A. Yes, sir, I know I did.
%
j
‘
:
i
A the ape Feit
379
Q. And who is Casey Slocomb?
A. He is the Chief Deputy.
Q. And he is a Supervisor, is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, that’s correct.
Q. What was the content of the conversation you
[509] had with Casey Slocomb?
A. Mr. Slocomb asked me if I thought that the
jail would be a suitable place to keep Logue, that
if, if I thought they had suitable facilities, and I as-
sured him that I thought they had.
Q. This was after Logue had cut himself and was
in the hospital?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. This was pending his possible transfer back
from the hospital to the jail?
A. Yes, sir, and I told him that I, myself, per-
sonally, would check on the Situation, that I knew-Mr.
Lowrance there very well, the Chief Jailer, and I
would advise him about it and let him know.
Q. Now you mentioned a Conversation that you
had on the telephone with Marvin Foster, was that
on the 24th of May?
A. I am sure it was, yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall if that was in the morning or
the afternoon?
A. I rather think it was in the morning; how-
ever, I could not be sure.
Q. What did he tell you?
A. He advised me that he had been trying to
contact [510] Mr. Ronald Blask, who was the As-
sistant United States Attorney, in charge of criminal
prosecutions at that time in Laredo, and with the
end in view of seeking a 4244 Commitment for this
380
Defendant. He stated to me that he intended to
bring this up at the time of arraignment of the De-
fendant in Court, and that he would go into the
question of his mental competency at that time,
and thought it would be wise, just as wise to do
it now. And I told him that Mr. Blask was in Laredo;
however, he was very busy, he had a tremendous
case schedule, he was being harried, we were work-
ing quite hard in the Court also, and I told him
that I would be glad to take it up with Mr. Blask
and the Court for him and that I was sure there
wouldn’t be any problem with the thing.
Q. All right, before you go any further concerning
what you may have done later, what is a 4244 Com-
mitment?
A. It is a commitment by the Court in which a,
when a person who is accused of an offense comes
before the Court and is mentally, his competency
is put into question, both at the time of the com-
mission of the offense and his competency [511]
to stand trial at the time is put into question, the
‘ Court commits the Defendant to, usually the Medi-
cal Center at Springfield to get a Government psy-
chiatrist’s opinion as to both questions.
Q. In your capacity as Deputy United States
Marshal for the past twenty-two years, have you
had the occasion to handle many of these 4244
> Commitments?
A. Yes, sir, many.
Q. Now going back to the conversation that you
had with Marvin Foster, he mentioned a 4244 Com-
mitment, what did you, and you told him that Mr.
381
Blask was rather busy, what occurred, then, in con-
nection with that conversation?
A. I, I told him further, I Said, “If you want me
to,” he had already intimated that he would like
for me to take it up with Mr. Blask, I told him that
I would be glad to do so, and if there were any
question at all whatsoever, I would have Mr. Blask
call him. I thought he would have much greater
luck in getting in touch with Mr., Mr. Blask by
having Mr. Blask call him when he could.
Q. So would it be accurate to Say that the jist of
[512] Mr. Foster’s conversation to you was that
he wanted a 4244 Commitment for Reagan Logue?
A. Correct.
Q. And what, if anything, did you do or tell Mr.
Blask then?
A. I told him exactly what had transpired. I told
him that we had arrested this young man, that he
had cut himself on the arm, and had been com-
mitted to the hospital, and Marvin had told me
that he intended to bring up the matter of his men-
tal competency at the time of arraignment, would
you just as soon do it now and See if the Court
would have him committed for observation under a
4244. And he said, he Said, “I see nothing wrong
with it,” and he and I both went to Judge Connally,
and Judge Connally readily agreed to issue a Writ,
I told him all about the situation—
Q. —You told Judge Connally about the situation?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In his Chambers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did the Judge indicate that he would sign the
Order?
4
isbn diallestiin al
eT RO NL TE ee OT
Nit
sa t Lota det <
sides
CDRS PWV OE OLED REET FN ee Be.
382
A. Yes, sir, he did.
[513] Q. You didn’t actually see him sign the Order
at that time, did you?
A. No, sir.
Q. Could you tell us something about the mechan-
ical procedure that the, that you have known in your
past concerning the formal execution of these orders
with Judge Connally?
A. You mean the drawing of the Writ, or the ex-
ecution of the Writ, or—
Q. —Yes, sir, what I’m driving at is, he indicated
that he would sign the Order, but I think that the
Order itself shows a subsequent date, why would that
be?
A. The Order itself would have been drawn by the
United States Attorney’s Office, and would be sub-
mitted to the Clerk, which, in turn, would have been
handed to the Judge. He would have signed it, and
we probably would have received copies of the, cer-
tified copies from the Clerk.
Q. So the actual date that might be on the Order
might be a time later than when you received infor-
mation that the Judge said he was going to sign it?
A. Yes, sir, it might be the same date, or it might
be a subsequent date.
[514] Q. Now you, together with Mr. Blask, went to
see Judge Connally. Was that very shortly after the
conversation that you had with Marvin Foster?
A. Iam sure it was. It was either during a morning
recess or the noon recess, one of the two.
Q. It was on the same day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you do in connection with this case
383
after you were with Mr. Blask in Judge Connally’s
Chambers?
A. I don’t know that I physically did anything. I
am sure that I probably advised Mr. Bowers during
one of our conversations that the Judge had agreed
to issue a 4244 Commitment Order, and that he
might advise Mr. Foster so that he wouldn’t be wait-
ing for Mr. Blask to call.
Q. Now during this time, that Marvin Foster called
requesting the 4244 Commitment and the time that
you went with Mr. Blask to see Judge Connally, this
was at a time when it was your information and
knowledge that the boy was in the hospital?
A. That is correct, yes, sir.
Q. Now did you Subsequently telephone Mr. Bow-
ers and give him any instructions?
A. Yes, after having received the phone call from
[515] Mr. Slocomb, I know that Mr. Bowers had
also been in contact with Mr. Slocomb—
Q. —What was the content of your telephone con-
versation with Mr. Bowers?
A. I told him that I had made arrangements to
remove the boy back to the jail; that I had, actually
I had tried to call him and was unable to find him,
I was unable to locate him, and then I had called
Mr. Lowrance, the Chief Jailer, at the Nueces County
Jail, and had told him that we were preparing to
move this prisoner back to the Nueces County Jail.
And if he thought that they had a safe place to keep
him, and he assured me that he did, and I advised
with him concerning the measures that I wanted
taken.
-
384
Q. Why did you indicate to him that you wanted
a safe place for this boy?
A. Well, because I, I, I told him he had suicidal
tendencies, he had cut himself, and I told him, “You
will not have to hold him long, we intend to move
him in a very short time to an institution, but we
want to get him back into the jail, we want a safe
place to keep him.and make sure he is safely kept
until such time as we can pick him up and transfer
him to an institution.”
[516] Q. This was your conversation with Mr. Tom
Lowrance, is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, and I asked him if he had a cell avail-
able that was readily available and could be kept
under surveillance, and that he would keep it, clean
the cell thoroughly, make a thorough inspection, and
remove everything from the cell that this young man
might possibly hurt himself with; that he place a
mattress or a pad in the cell on the floor; and that
he strip this young man when he went into the cell.
Q. What was Mr. Lowrance’s reply?
A. He said, “Yes,” he could certainly do that. Also,
I, I, I had known Mr. Lowrance as an old officer here,
who I knew had had as much or more experience
than I ever had in this sort of situation, but I did
go into details with him as to the things that I
thought would be advisable, inspecting and stripping
the cell, stripping the Defendant before placing him
in the cell, and keeping close watch over him. I also
suggested to him that it might be well to place trus-
tees, either in the cell or outside of the cell near
where they could observe him.
Se ying eek os
4
%
3
+
;
3
2
:
i
ag
:
>|
3
4
#
;
:
3
a
;
x
385
[517] Q. Then did you issue some directions to Dep-
uty Bowers?
A. Yes, I called Mr. Bowers and I told him about
these arrangements, arrangements that I had made,
at which time he protested, ‘Well, Gerald,” he Says,
“I don’t have a doctor’s release yet,” and I said,
“Well, Blackie, I, I, I just talked to Mr. Slocomb
about this same thing and I know, although he did
not say so, from the tenor of his conversation, he
was under the assumption that you had received a
doctor’s release for the prisoner or he would not have
even gone into these instructions. You must have
called him, what did you talk to him about, how
could you have given him the impression?” And he
Says, “Well, I don’t know.” I Said, “Well, let me tell
you this—disregard this so far,” I Says, “I want you
to make, go and look at the arrangements that Mr.
Lowrance has made, I want you to personally inspect
the situation yourself, I want you to inspect the jail,
I want you to see that everything is in readiness,”
and I went over this sort of thing with him. And
then, “I would suggest that you call the doctor and
advise him that we do have this 4244, 4244 [518]
Commitment pending, that we would like to move
the prisoner back to the jail, and ask him if he wil]
give you a release.” And he said that he would. I said
in the event that the doctor does not deem it ad-
visable to give you a release, you are to do nothing,
leave the prisoner exactly where he is and simply
advise Mr. Slocomb.
Q. Now in your duties as Deputy U. S. Marshal,
you come into contact with a number of jails in the
South Texas area, do you not?
Oa
386
A. Yes, sir, in fact, all over the United States.
Q. And these jails are not all necessarily federal
institutions, are they?
A. No, sir.
Q. But yet you put federal prisoners in them?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What allows you to do that?
A. We have jail contracts with jails that are ap-
proved by the Bureau of Prisons. We tell them our
needs and they, in effect, they negotiate contracts
with various counties so that we may have federally
approved jails. Some of them, there are variations in
the things that we are approved for.
[519] Q. All right, then the method by which federal
prisoners are kept, are allowed to be kept in these
state jails, are the jail contracts, is that correct?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are all the jail contracts the same?
A. No, sir, we negotiate a jail contract with each
individual county jail and Sheriff.
Q. How do you pay these jails?
A. Well, simply what we pay is on a per head basis,
per head per day.
Q. Per head per day basis?
Yes, sir.
And not a straight monthly—
—No, sir—
—monthly retainer or salary or fee?
No, sir.
. Now when you put a federal prisoner in one of
these jails, is he separated from the other prisoners?
A. No, sir.
CP ee Re Oe
SN A As Se, Sy eee POUR LT Oye ee Lon or oe ORE
OPOProOp
PYGMIES PE ate . ,
387
Q. Is he subject to any Special privileges from the
other prisoners?
A. No, sir, and the Bureau of Prisons would frown
very muchly, very muchly so if he received any [520]
better treatment than any other prisoner in the jail,
whether it be federal, state, county.
Q. Does it, or do you consider the jailer of each
jail to have control and custody of each—
Mr. De Anda: —Oh, Your Honor, I object to what
this witness considers, whether he considered the
‘jailer to have custody and control because, first of
he
all, it is a conclusion, the jail contract speaks for
itself, and the Statutes Speak for themselves, and I
don’t believe it is up to this witness to interpret, by
giving his legal conclusion, as to custody and control.
Mr. Pain: Your Honor, this wouldn’t necessarily be
a legal conclusion. That is based upon his experience,
his twenty-two years of experience as a Deputy U.S.
Marshal, his experiences with all these different jail-
ers in these Situations, irrespective of the fact that
it may differ from what the jail contract is, and I
am asking him what his experiences have been in
connection with the custody and control of the pri-
soners.
[521] Mr. De Anda: Further, Your Honor, his ex-
periences is really not relevant; it is what about this
particular prisoner, the one that we are talking
about, and unless it applies to this prisoner, it would
be irrelevant and immaterial. I still maintain my
objection as being, it being a legal conclusion as to
the effect of it or the status of the, of the jailer of
a
ae aaa es Pe ES i a A ie TA a LLL SO ES
388 |
the Sheriff's Department, I don’t think this is a ques-
tion of law, it’s based on the facts and on the Stat-
utes.
The Court: Well, I’m going to overrule the objec-
tion.
Mr. Pain: I forgot my question, would you please
read it back, please, ma’am?
(The following question was read back by
the Court Reporter and is as follows: “Does
it, or do you consider the jailer of each jail
to have control and custody of each—’”’)
[522] By The Witness:
A. He does have actually physical control and cus-
tody of the prisoner in there, anyway, and in another
sense, of course, we retain control over the prisoner.
Q. Now on various times and occasions, you have
to go up and get these federal prisoners and to see
them on occasions, do you not?
A. Yes, yes, sir.
Q. Do you feel obligated to check, check in with
the jailer when you do?
Mr. De Anda: These questions are very leading and
suggestive in form. I haven’t objected up to now be-
cause it was not, I felt not on relevant matters, but
I think now it’s getting down to some meaty prob-
lems here, and I would prefer that he not lead the
witness.
389
Mr. Pain: I will attempt to rephrase my question
a little bit better, Your Honor.
The Court: Rephrase it.
Mr. Pain: All right.
By Mr. Pain:
Q. Have you had occasion to visit federal prisoners
in these jails?
[523] A. Yes, sir.
Q. And what is the procedure that you go through
when you do so visit?
A. Walk into the jail and Say, “I want to see this
prisoner so and so.”
Q. If the jailer would Say, “No, you can’t see him,”
what, what would you do?
A. I would immediately ask why not.
Q. If the jailer said, “You can’t go upstairs and
see him,” what would you do?
A. I would ask why not.
Q. And have you ever had the occasion to have
that happen?
A. Yes, sir, I have.
Q. Then how would you see the prisoner?
A. I didn’t see the prisoner, I thought the man’s
reasons were very good and I agreed with him and
I left.
Q. Do the federal prisoners receive any different
food than the state prisoners?
A. No, sir.
-Q. Are they subject to the same rules and regula-
tions?
390
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And who makes those rules and regulations?
[524] A. The Sheriff's Department.
Q. Are they subject to the same visiting hours?
A. Sometimes they are, sometimes they are on
Staggered days in a jail which may, half of its popu-
lation may be federal prisoners, and there will be
one visiting day for federal prisoners and possibly
another visiting day for state prisoners, but—
Q. —Who sets up these hours? .
A. The Sheriff. ,
Q. Do they wear the same clothes, same clothing,
they, meaning the federal prisoners, do they wear
the same clothing as the other prisoners?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And they have the same bedding and other ar-
; rangements?
é A. Yes, sir.
: Q. And who makes that determination?
A. The Sheriff.
Q. From your handling of federal prisoners in
these jails, have you ever had suicide attempts?
A. Yes, sir, many of them. ~
Q. How are you ordinarily notified of this?
A. I am usually called from the jail.
Q. By one of the jailers?
[525] A. Yes, sir.
Q. What is the first thing you tell them?
A. I ask him, “Have you called the doctor?”
Q. Then what do you do?
Se yerrar =
Sap 5 Sees adie Ghd LA
Mr. De Anda: Your Honor, I’m going to object to
all of this matter, what he usually does when he has
MOP RETME NR CUMIRCE NOMI er , /
391
suicidal attempts; I don’t see the relevancy of it at
all, Judge.
The Court: I agree with you, I don’t think there
is any relevancy as to what he does himself in con-
nection with suicide attempts, and in other instances,
when he wasn’t actually the one on the ground in
connection with this one.
By Mr. Pain:
Q. Now you have had some of your federal prison-
ers taken to hospitals as a result of injuries received
in the jail, have you not?
A. Yes, sir, you mean by others, other than Deputy
Marshals or myself?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes, sir, uh-huh.
Q. And what is the first thing that you are con-
cerned with, if anything, when you find out [526]
that one of these prisoners has been taken to the
hospital?
Mr. De Anda: Your Honor, again, I don’t see the
relevancy of all this testimony. He may be trying to
get something, I don’t know, but I know what the
matters are that are being presented and I don’t
think they are relevant at all to this case.
The Court: Well, I think maybe, I don’t know be-
cause I am not pre-judging any of the questions of
law, but I think perhaps custom may have some
relevancy, that in the course of years of experience
these have been handled in a particular way.
392
Mr. De Anda: All right, sir.
By Mr. Pain:
Q. What is the first thing that you do ordinarily?
A. I try to find out the extent of the problem, if
the prisoner is going to be committed to the hospital;
if he is going to be committed to the hospital, how
long is he going to be there; if there is any chance
that—
Q. —Who do you talk to on this?
A. Usually the doctor, ‘the jail physician.
Q. The doctor that admitted the prisoner to the
{527] hospital?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you find out from him how long he’s going
to be there?
A. Yes.
Q. Why is it that you are interested in that?
A. For several reasons. The first one is, the security
of the prisoner, of course, we do not want him to
escape; secondarily, we want to move him back into
jail for that reason, and also to Save expense, to save
the taxpayers money. \
Q. So then\do you get the, when you get the pris-
oner back from the hospital to the jail, you talk
about a release, then, to the doctor, is that correct?
A. Yes, sir, in every instance. Of course, he is the
doctor’s responsibility, we can not move the prisoner
without the doctor’s okay.
Q. And you, yourself, have taken many prisoners
back from the hospital to the jail in such situations
as that?
PARA TSE TAR ate Re coset ‘ é Fi
393
A. Absolutely, yes, Sir.
Q. And have you ever done so without a doctor's
release?
A. Never, sir.
[528] Q. Would that be against your rules and
regulations?
A. Yes, sir, absolutely.
Q. What do you do in the event that you want
the prisoner back, but the doctor will not give you
a release? -
A. The prisoner Stays in the hospital.
Q. Do you ever try to see if you can, he can be
transferred to a federal hospital?
A. Yes, there would be occasions when we could
possibly have a doctor examine a prisoner and say,
“This man is going to need Surgery,” or some such
Situation, and we would ask him, “Well, is it an
emergency at this time, is there a chance that maybe
it could wait for a week or ten days, something like
that,” and if he Says, “Yes,” well, then, if he does
need surgery, and will need it within that time,
then we would try to take steps to move him to a
federal institution so the Surgery could be done there
in the institutional hospital. Again, to save the tax-
payers expenses.
Q. But still would you take him from the hospital
without a release?
A. No, sir. I might Say also, that in all the jails
we ha@e, we have a jail physician; the [529] con-
tracts with, with every jail in this district, include
the provisions that the county furnish a physician.
In Webb County we have a federal physician who
is paid a flat fee and then plus fees, fees and expenses
394
if he has to do anything other than make visitations
in the jail and prescribe.
Q. But a prisoner uses his own private physician
if he wants to, can he not?
A. No, no, sir, not when he is in our custody, he
should not. We oftentimes, we have had this ques-
tion on occasions; usually the way I handle it is,
I say, “You will see the jail physician, and if he
deems it necessary, he will call your physician.” And
the doctor on many occasions does call a prisoner’s
; private physician, if he thinks there is reason to
do so.
Q. Now how long were you Supervisory Agent
: over Deputy Bowers?
' A. Ever since he went to work for us.
{ Q. And how long was that, do you remember?
A. Mr. Bowers worked with us, I believe, some
eight years.
Q. And you—
A. —’62 or ’63, something like that, 62 or ’63
[530] when he went to work.
Q. Several years anyway?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In your capacity as his Supervisor, you were
familiar with the methods and the manner in which
he handled many of his prisoners?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever have any occasion to criticize
him on the handling of his prisoners?
Bare ones
eee
Si A aa dig Ne
Mr. De Anda: Time out, Your Honor, I object to
that.
NSDL sh iSO te a Pel ROMA Ty ath I i
395
The Court: And I will sustain the objection to
that.
Mr. Pain: We pass the witness.
[531] CROSS EXAMINATION
By Mr. De Anda:
Q. Who is your jail physician here in Corpus
Christi?
A. Dr. B. B. Grossman.
Q. Did you contact Dr. Grossman, or did anyone
contact Dr. Grossman with reference to this case,
Reagan Logue’s case?
A. I did not. I didn’t know until after Mr. Logue
was dead that Mr. Grossman had not been the at-
tending physician in the hospital. I was—
Q. —I see, you were under the impression he was
one of the physicians involved?
A. Yes, I don’t know why I had that impression,
but I certainly was.
Q. All right, but now you know for a fact that he
had absolutely nothing to do with this, and was not
called by anyone, to your knowledge, connected with
the Government?
A. That’s correct, I found out, I found that out
Shortly thereafter in questioning Mr. Bowers.
Q. All right, I believe you testified, Mr. Jones, that
in taking prisoners to the hospital, and for treatment,
maybe suicide efforts, or maybe [532] something
else, it is not an uncommon occurrence?
A. It is not an everyday occurrence, but I would
Say in my twenty-two years experience, I have
396
handled no fewer than fifty persons. Now you are
talking about suicide attempts?
Q. No, I’m talking about people having to go to
the hospital for anything.
A. It is not a common occurrence.
Q. Well, numerically it is not, but I’m not talking
about the numericals, you mentioned fifty suicide at-
tempts—
A. —I would say that I have handled no fewer than
fifty, possibly as many as a hundred people who have
cut themselves in the jail.
Q. And who required medical attention?
A. Yes, sir, required a few sutures.
Q. And then, of course, there have been, I presume,
people that were in jail that did not attempt suicide
but required hospitalization?
A. Oh, yes, yes, sir.
§ Q. These would be almost, at least, as numerous as
j suicides, to put it in kind words for our jails—
: A. —No, sir, I am afraid that is not the case.
: Q. Okay, most emergencies go to the jail, go to the
; hospital from the jail, they do so because [533] they
attempted suicide, at least the federal prisoners?
A. I would think there is probably a greater per-
centage of them who cut themselves.
Q. All right, in any event, this is handled by, when
Ej the man goes to the hospital, he stays in the hospital
until the doctor releases him, then you put him back
in jail?
A. Now what do you mean, you say this is han-
i dled—
: Q. —Well, isn’t, isn’t this the way, isn’t this the
uniform invariable way in which this is done, that
’
Reis tian’ oe latin
SFR IEE SEES IPT Aare SNR ED Ht : y
397
the man is taken to the hospital when necessary and
then not removed from the hospital until released by
the doctor?
A. Yes, that’s a fair statement.
Q. Have you known of any case where it was not
done that way?
A. No.
Q. All right, and then we might accept this as the
absolute, no exception practice in the Marshal’s
Office?
A. Getting a doctor’s release prior to removing—
Q. —Yes.
A. Yes, sir, absolutely.
Q. And Iam Sure, then, that Mr. Bowers, you [534]
Supervised him, that he also had an occasion to take
an attempted, attempted suicides to the hospitals as
well-as perhaps others?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who required hospitalization?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. So actually there was nothing to this, in a sui-
cide case, ordinarily, to cause a great deal of turmoil
or disturbance in the Marshal’s Office, it is some-
thing that happens and you have to take care of it.
A. That is true.
Q. But in this particular case, there was a great
many number of, although the practice is settled and
undisputed, there was a great many conversations
between you and Mr. Bowers and Mr. Slocomb about
the removal of this man from the hospital?
A. I don’t know that there were a great many. Mr.
Slocomb and I had one conversation about the re-
398
moval of him, and Mr. Bowers and I had one conver-
sation.
Q. You described several conversations with Mr.
Bowers.
A. Yes, but they were not all concerning the re-
moval [535] of the patient.
Q. All right, but apparently arrangements were
made for the removal of the prisoner to jail before the
doctor coricurred that this should be done?
A. That’s correct, I made the arrangements with
the jail under the assumption that a release had al-
ready been obtained. I got this assumption from Mr.
Slocomb’s conversation with me.
Q. All right, there were several people talking back
and forth, and then somewhere you got the assump-
tion that the doctor had given a release?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Just like you had the assumption that some-
where, somewhere that Dr. Grossman was involved?
A. Well, he should have been.
3 Q. All right, and also there should have been a
release before these arrangements, so I think that
: might be a fair way that you got the assumption,
i that you were sitting there making arrangements to
get this fellow back in jail and trying to find a safe
place for him, and you were going through all of
4 these gymnastics assuming the doctor had, had
agreed to it, that it could be done?
[536] A. That a release would be given.
§ Q. Had been given?
; A. I’m sorry, I’m afraid I don’t understand your
question, Jim.
Q. In other words, these things that you were do-
399
ing were not done at the doctor’s suggestion, you
were just doing them because, under the circum-
stances that were releated to you, you you knew that
this man had suicidal tendencies and was apparently
committed toward taking his own life if the opportu-
nity presented itself?
A. Well, I wouldn’t Say that I had made that as-
sumption, no.
Q. Well, it seems to me that in your conversation
with Mr. Lowrance, as you have described it, and I
think also from what Mr. Slocomb says here in his
deposition, and we read that in your presence, that
you set up several rules there for Mr. Lowrance to
follow, I believe you referred to them as suggestions.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. As to how to keep this particular prisoner.
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now those rules that you gave Mr. Lowrance
were given because you knew that that was the only
[537] way to safely keep the prisoner?
A. That’s true and correct.
Q. If those rules were not followed, then it would
be unsafe to keep this man in jail whether the doc-
tor released him or not?
A. That’s true and correct, if he did have inten-
tions of committing suicide.
Q. Yes, sir, wéll, there is no question about that,
is there?
A. There is no question that he did.
Q. All right, and he had tried it before and, and,
I believe, as I listened to Mr. Foster’s testimony and
Mr. Bowers’ testimony, everyone indicated they were
gravely concerned that this youngster might do ex-
actly this, is that right?
400
A. Yes.
Q. And, of course, these concerns were expressed to
you in your conversations with Mr. Bowers and Mr.
Foster?
A. Yes.
Q. And as a matter of fact, you made certain com-
ments to the Court, or at least Mr. Blask did in your
presence, that were talked about, that led Judge
Connally to sign an Order, that he had reason to be-
lieve or thought the United [538] States Attorney
had reason to believe that the Defendant may be pres-
ently insane or mentally incompetent?
A. Mentally incompetent was what he used. Now I
gathered several things from the information that
was given to me.
Q. Well, but all I am asking you is, it was based
on what you told Judge Connally, and what Mr.
Blask told Judge Connally, that Judge Connally
signed this Order stating that the man may be pres-
ently insane or*otherwise mentally incompetent?
A. That is true.
Q. All right, and now, now Mr. Slocomb, in his
deposition, and I want to be sure we all agree on this
now, in testifying with reference to the messages that
he received, telephone conversations that he received
from you and Mr. Bowers, makes this statement in
his deposition, this is on Page 5, George, if you are
interested—“The psychiatrist informed that the boy
was withdrawing from the use of LSD, that the pa-
tient had suicidal tendencies, and the psychiatrist
recommended to Deputy Bowers that we leave the boy
in the hospital with guards until such time [539]
as we could commit him to a federal institution.”
|
401
This was your, your understanding of it, too, Mr.
Jones, in your conversations with Mr. Bowers and
Mr. Slocomb?
A. It was after he had seen Dr. Gwin for the first
time in the hospital that morning, yes, he conveyed
that information to me.
Q. All right.
A. He didn’t Convey it in exactly that sequence,
no, but he said that Dr. Gwin had said that the
boy was suffering from, actually a psychosis brought
on, brought about by the use of LSD, glue, and peyote,
and marijuana, and he mentioned all four of the
agents there.
Q. All right, well, that would make it even worse,
wouldn’t it?
A. Well, it’s quite possible, yes.
Q. All right, in any event, you, at that time, knew
that the doctor had recommended that, that the
youngster remain in the hospital until committed to
another institution?
A. Yes.
Q. All right, then somewhere along the way, you
were left with the erroneous impression, or you got
the erroneous impression that the doctor had [540
released the young man to go back to jail, the magic
word, “release”, take him out—
A. —Yes—
Q. —and so you made these arrangements?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Which you considered to, to comply with your
duties to safely keep this man?
A. Yes.
Q. And you told Mr. Lowrance that he ought to have
es
ON
402
this mattress on the floor, have no movable or re-
movable objects in the cell, that a trustee ought to
be sitting in the cell with him, or two, or one right
there where he could watch him continually, and also
you indicated, I think, that he was not to have any
clothing?
A. That’s correct.
Q. Or wearing apparel on him, other than perhaps
shorts, something like that, I guess?
A. That’s true.
Q. And you made these requirements because this
is what it took, based on your experiences?
A. Yes.
Q. And recognizing the problem that you had to,
to keep this boy from hurting himself?
A. Correct.
[541] Q. And actually, in fact, I suppose if those
things had been done, the boy wouldn’t have hung
himself?
A. There would have been no way for him to have
hung himself if those had been done.
Q. It was because those things were not done that
this happened?
A. Yes.
i Q. Now as far as the release, as I understand it,
it came back as a shock to you when you talked to
Mr. Bowers in a subsequent conversation, and after
all these arrangements had been made, it came as
a shock to you that he could have, that the doctor
had, in fact, not changed his opinion, that he still
thought the man, as far as you knew, should remain
in the hospital until committed to another medical
facility?
A. No, it surprised me when Mr. Bowers told me
that he did not have the doctor’s release because
I knew Mr. Slocomb would not have called me unless
he was under that impression, and the Only place
he could have gotten it was from Mr. Bowers.
Q. Well, that eliminates you and Slocomb, but that
leaves Blackie. All right, now, so then you [542] told
Mr. Bowers, “All right, now we have made these ar-
rangements, we’ve got this Situation, we’ve got this
Judge’s Order committing him to a hospital; now
you go get that release from the doctor,” or words
to that effect?
A. I told him to call the doctor and tell him of
the arrangements that had been made in their en-
tirety; to tell him that we were in the process of
getting the 4244 Commitment; that the prisoner
would be moved sometime within the near future,
probably, possibly no longer than three days or a
week at the most; that these arrangements had been
made, and a cell had been stripped, and the way the
prisoner was to be handled and so forth, and to ask
him if he would give a release under those circum-
stances.
Q. But, and then Mr. Bowers, apparently in his
conversation with the doctor, as I read Mr. Bowers’
deposition, and also from the doctor’s own testimony,
when it got to the doctor, the Judge had ordered
all this. Did, well, would you know anything about
that or did you have any conversation with Mr.
Bowers as to exactly what he told the doctor?
A. No, I did, did not.
[543]. Q. All right.
A. But I don’t believe Shannon Gwin would get
404
any wrong ideas; we use him quite often as a Court
psychiatrist.
Q. All right, well, I’m sure he didn’t. Now let’s
talk a little about, let’s talk a little bit about federal
prisoners in these jails. Of course, as you pointed
out, when you put a man in jail, you turn him over
to the Sheriff, the actual control of his body is with
the Sheriff?
A. Correct.
Q. Or whoever is operating the jail, whoever that
happens to be?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But it is understood by everyone, isn’t it, that
this man is your prisoner?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And by golley he leaves that jail when you want
him to leave?
A. Correct.
Q. And he is handled the way you want him to be
handled, if there is any special variations surround-
ing that, that requires special handling?
[544] A. There are a few exceptions. Some jails have
some real good rules and maximum security cells.
I know the Hidalgo County Jail is that way now and
has been for a number of years. I don’t care who you
are, you are not going to remove a prisoner from the
maximum security cells after 7:00 o’clock in the
evening; that goes for the Marshal, too, even if it’s
his own prisoner.
Q. And you know that rule when you put the man
in there?
A. That was the one that I was turned down on
for the first time.
405
Q. All right, that is a sound rule, and—
A. —Yes, sir—
Q. —one that you commend, so you understood
that is the rule and that’s the arrangement under
which you put the man in jail?
A. Yes, sir, and it was for a very good reason.
Q. If you didn’t recognize that rule and didn’t
think it reasonable, you simply wouldn’t use that
facility or make them change the rule?
A. I don’t know whether I could or not.
Q. Well, I said, they can’t make you put your jail,
your prisoners in there?
[545] A. No, but it would be very, very unhandy for
me to put them anywhere else, Mr. De Anda, I’ll tell
you.
Q. But this rule, and other rules, do they have
any such rule in the Nueces County Jail?
A. I don’t know; I rather doubt it.
Q. Have you ever had the—the Nueces County Jail
in its operations, that’s the jail we are talking about?
A. Yes.
Q. Balk on anything that you wanted done with
a single one of your prisoners?
A. No, sir.
Q. As I understand it, the procedures and the
protocol, they were desperately trying to get ahold
of the Marshal when this man tried to cut himself?
A. I am sure they probably were. .
Q. And when he got to the hospital, the Marshal
took over the management of the prisoner?
A. Correct.
Q. And there was no argument about that?
A. No, ordinarily no one can remove a federal
prisoner from the jail except a Marshal.
—
OY
406
Q. I see.
[546] A. Except in emergency situations.
Q. All right, that’s because you really have control
over the prisoner?
A. Yes, in that respect, yes.
Q. All right, and the, and the jailer, the jail is an
accommodation to and service that is available to you?
A. Yes, that is—
Q. —But there is no doubt about the fact that
you are the person that has the natural custody of
him and that the, that the jailers are acting at your
suggestions and trying to accommodate you in what-
ever way you see fit as regards that prisoner?
A. Well, of course, they are charged with the keep-
ing of the prisoners, the physical custody of the
prisoner, yes, sir.
Q. Like I say, when special circumstances arise
that deviate from the routine, deference -is paid to
your suggestions and what you want done?
A. As long as they are reasonable; we always try
to be reasonable, and the Sheriff, of course, is also
reasonable with his rules.
Q. Certainly, I understand that, and if he ever had
a rule that you couldn’t live with, you [547] didn’t
think was right, you would certainly make that
known to the Sheriff and, and let him know how you
felt about it?
A. Yes, sir, and if he doesn’t have some rules that
I think he ought to have, occasionally I will go to
him and suggest that he implement them.
Q. As far as your prisoners—
A. —Sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn’t.
Q. But either the rule is something you can live
407
with and accept as being reasonable, or you could
remove the prisoner?
A. Yes, we could. He could also tell us to remove
the prisoner if he took a notion.
Q. Surely, but to make a long story short, the
arrangements for this man, you gave to Mr. Lowrance
as what you wanted done with the man when he
was returned to jail?
A. Yes.
Q. And I assume Mr. Lowrance gave you every
indication that he, that these arrangements would
be followed?
A. Yes.
Q. And had he, had he given you any indication
he would not do what you suggested, you probably
would not ever have removed him from the [548]
hospital?
A. That is correct, yes, sir. I think probably every
suggestion that I gave him is what is done with the
handling of mental patients in every jail in Texas
that handles mental patients.
Q. Well, except one, unless you do not keep, have
a cellmate, or keep, or a, some trustee sitting there
watching a man, like you Suggested in this case?
A. I have on several occasions, yes, sir.
Q. You have on several occasions, but this is not
the absolute, irrevocable, without exception rule?
A. No, I wouldn’t say so. In every case it would
depend on the circumstances.
Q. All right, and the circumstances that were
given you in this case—
A. —Yes—
Q. —and the facts as you knew them to be were
P
such that you thought this was a, was a safety
requirement?
A. Not necessarily so, but I thought that it might
be something that he might use to keep, to keep
this prisoner under observation.
Q. All right.
A. There are other things that can happen to
[549] prisoners that are in isolation cells other than
—well, they are able to get things from the outside,
on occasion.
Q. All right, but what I’m Saying, in this case,
regardless of the whys or wherefores, you thought
this was one of the precautions that was needed to
be taken?
A. I did advise it. I don’t know that I actually
advised him, but I told him, I suggested to him that
it might be well to place a jail trustee either in or
near the cell.
Q. All right, the object being to keep the man
under observation?
A. Surely, yes, sir.
Q. All right. Mr. Slocomb made the same comments
in his deposition, if you recall—
A. —Uh-huh.
Q. Right here is what Mr. Slocomb said, Page 7,
“Deputy Jones further advised me he had requested
the jailer to place a couple of trustees in or near by
the cell to observe the boy—”
A. Uh-huh.
Q. So there ain’t no question but what you made
a suggestion?
[550] A. Yes, I know I did.
Q. All right, and I believe you heard the reading
408
of Mr. Bowers’ deposition, and he said he would con-
sider it unsafe and would not have agreed to, for
the youngster to be in jail, but for these rules includ-
ing this particular one that I am emphasizing right
now, because it was the one that was breached, to
keep the boy under observation and to have someone
in the cell with him.
A. No, I didn’t hear that, I don’t know.
Q. All right.
A. I may have missed it, though.
Q. Okay, sure, I miss a lot of things myself.
A. Sure.
Q. And if the release that was obtained from the
doctor, this magic thing, go ahead, I will give him
back to you, was done, either by applying pressure
on the doctor to do it, or because the doctor was ill
advised and left with the impression that the Judge
had ordered it to be done, then that would not be in
keeping with your usual procedures, assuming that
was done?
A. Well—
Q. —I know you are going to say it wasn’t done,
[551] and that’s fine—
A. —I have never been able to pressure a doctor
yet, Jim.
Q. I’m not Saying you did it, but now I am saying
that it happened in this case.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Either through inadvertence or for whatever
reason there was, that would not be in keeping with
your procedures?
A. No. .
Q. And this was an unwise thing to do?
410
A. Well, I don’t quite follow you.
Q. Well, it would be a dangerous thing to do, to
let the medical judgment, the Deputy Marshal be
injected into the medical judgment of the doctor
and be determinative of whether or not a man stays
in the hospital, that’s what I’m getting at?
A. I don’t know, you might have a Deputy Marshal
that was almost a doctor, you can’t tell.
Q. Well, I didn’t—let me ask you this—did Blackie
Bowers have any medical—
A. —No, he did not—
Q. —training?
A. No, he did not, certainly not.
[552] Q. All right, assuming that Mr. Bowers had
either intentionally, or unintentionally, left the doc-
tor with the impression that the Judge, Judge Con-
nally had ordered this youngster’s removal to jail,
first of all, that would not be correct, would it?
A. No, sir, it would not.
Q. And secondly, it would not be in keeping with
the Marshal’s Office procedures and practices, would
it?
A. No, sir.
Q. And if, and it would be unwise, a dangerous
thing to do, wouldn’t it?
A. It certainly would be stupid on top of it.
Q. All right.
A. And I don’t think you will find any doctor who
is going to let any Judge tell him who to put in jail.
Q. All right, I’m just saying, as far as your office
is concerned, this would be terrible?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Jones, did you, did you make any statements
411
to anyone shortly after this happened, to the F.B.L,
or anybody, about this matter?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
[553] Q. Written statements?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you been provided with a copy of that?
A. Not the statement that I made to the F.B.I.
within a very short time after this incident happened.
After I made the statement to the F.B.I., I wrote my
report which was sent to our department in Washing-
ton.
Q. Do you have a copy of that?
A. Do I have a copy of that? Yes, sir.
Q. I’m sure you read it before testifying to refresh
your memory?
A. Yes, sir, I refreshed my memory from it while
I was testifying.
Q. May I see that, please, sir?
A. Yes, sir, incidentally, that’s the only copy I have,
Mr. De Anda.
Q. All right, I will give it back to you.
A. Okay.
Q. I don’t want to take the time to review this;
you’re going to be around during the Court trial,
and if anything comes up that I want to ask you
about it, I can.
Mr. Pain: I think I gave you a copy of that.
([554] Mr. De Anda: No, sir, not Jones.
The Witness: Yes, sir, I will be around.
412
By Mr. De Anda:
Q. Now one other matter that I want to point to,
I want to mention to you and see if you concur—I
believe in Mr. Slocomb’s deposition he states that
had Mr. Logue, had Reagan not killed himself, that
within twenty-four hours after the Commitment Or-
der had been signed by the Judge, that your office,
or the Marshal’s Office could have had this young-
ster on his way to the hospital.
A. Mr. Slocomb said that we could have moved him
within twenty-four hours?
Q. I want to be fair with you, I think so, let me
see what I read—well, here’s exactly what it is, that
I was referring to, “If we had had the Court Order
in hand, and the patient in hand, available for im-
mediate transfer, I think that by making a long-
distance telephone request to the Washington offices,
in that case we could have commenced the trip pos-
sibly within twenty-four hours after making the
calls.”
A. We could have probably gotten a designation
on him and would have been ready to. Now now
[555] whether or not we had the man power avail-
able to actually commence the trip or not, I do not
know. We were tremendously busy in the District,
we were short-handed, we had eleven men at that
time and we needed about forty. We already had
Mr. Schorre out of the District, we were absolutely
tied up in Laredo, the two of us there, we could have
used three more, and I don’t know where we would
have gotten the man to move him. We may have, I
don’t know.
413
Q. Well, will you agree with Slocomb or don’t you?
A. I always agree with Mr. Slocomb. If Mr. Slo-
comb said that he could have and would have moved
a man within twenty-four hours, he would have
moved him one way or the other.
Q. All right, in other words, somehow or other you
would have come up with a man?
A. Yes, we may not have, we may have called in
a man from another District.
Q. All right, now there is absolutely nothing in
your rules and regulations that would have prevented
you from moving this man directly from Memorial
- hospital to a medical facility if it was necessary, isn’t
that right?
A. Do you mean in one continuous movement?
[556] Q. Well, however, I don’t know how many
movements you would need, it would depend on
where you were going and how you got him there,
but I mean there was no necessity in confining him
back in the County Jail to get him to Springfield?
A. There, we would have had to confine him in
jail before we got in Springfield, I mean your trip
was that long.
Q. Yes, and, and you would have had people with
him?
A. Yes.
Q. And that would have been handled however it
was necessary to handle?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But what I am getting at, there was no magic
in taking him back to the Nueces County Jail, that
wasn’t a requirement for you to start your trip to
Springfield?
414
A. No, sir, I wasn’t dealing in magic.
Q. All right, in other words, you could have, you
could have taken him had the doctor not released
him?
A. Yes.
Q. Had the doctor said, “I’m not going to, I’m not
going to release him until you just walk [557] over.
my dead body,” and you would have left him in jail,
I mean, I’m sorry, in the hospital? You could have
taken him from the hospital to, to your federal
medical facility?
A. We couldn’t have taken him to the medical
facility without the doctor’s release.
Q. I mean if he had permitted you to do that, you
could have?
A. Yes.
Q. The reason I am asking you this is, there was
something in the deposition here that disturbed me
about the necessity of taking him back to jail; there
was no need to take him back to jail if the situation
didn’t call for it?
A. I lost you.
Q. It’s so easy. All right, strike that question and
let me try again—if the judgment had been such that
he couldn’t be removed to the County Jail because
the doctor didn’t want you to, and said, “I will only
release him if you will take him to Springfield,” then
you could have done that, you could have taken him
directly from Memorial Hospital to the Springfield
. facility?
A. Oh, yes, sir, sure.
Q. All right.
LDL EIS IO LE . —f
415
[558] A. It would ,of course, there would have been
an overnight stop semewhere between here and—
Q. —Yes, sir—
A. —between here and-Springfield, at least one,
even if we had hauled this prisoner and no other,
there would have had to be one stop, and incidentally,
I had made plans for this same situation.
Q. I understand that. Now while this man is in
your custody because of the Court processes, no mat-
ter who actually has him, you consider him a man
in your custody, do you not, Mr. Jones?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Or your office, is that right?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you feel like you are responsible for him
or make arrangements to see that he is properly
kept?
A. Yes, however, if he escapes from the jail, the
responsibility is not charged to you, it is charged to
the jail; occasionally we put the jailer in jail.
Mr. De Anda: I pass the witness, Your Honor.
The Court: Mr. Pain?
[559] REDIRECT EXAMINATION
By Mr. Pain:
Q. On these 4244 Commitments, where are the
prisoners ordinarily taken?
A. Actually, actually they may- be taken to almost
any institution, but ordinarily they are taken to the
Medical Center at Springfield.
416
Q. Springfield, Missouri?
A. Yes, sir, at Springfield, Missouri.
Q. Have you made that trip very often?
A. Many, many times, yes, sir.
Q. From Brownsville?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. From Corpus Christi?
A. And from Laredo and from Houston.
Q. How far is it? » fr
A. From where? /
Q. From Corpus Christi to Springfield?
>
. From Corpus Christi to Springfield—it is just
under a thousand miles, it would be about nine hun-
dred something, a little over.
Q. By what mode of transportation do you ordi-
narily get there with a prisoner?
A. By automobile.
[560] Q. How long would it take you to drive it?
A. Two days minimum, and I would have to crowd
it both days.
Q. If you; were to start early in the morning from
Corpus Christi to go to Springfield, where would you
stop?
Mr. De Anda: Just a minute, Your Honor, I don’t
see the relevancy of that at all.
The Court: What is the relevancy?
Mr. Pain: Well, Your Honor, I want to point out
that he would, by necessity, have to stop overnight,
and I want to see what he would do with the
This text is long and has been trimmed here. Open the source document for the complete record.
This is a copy of a public record, reproduced as it was published. It is not legal advice, and it may not be the version a court would rely on. Check the official source before you cite it.