Appendix — Mobile v. Bolden
Supreme Court brief1980
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Text
‘Supreme Court, U.
RILED’ |
NOV 16 1978
=
L_MIOWAEL MODAK, JR., CLERK
APPENDIX
VOLUME II — Pages 306 - 620
IN THE
Supreme Court of the Anited States
OCTOBER TERM, 1978
No. 77-1844
CITY OF MOBILE, ALABAMA, et al,
Appellants,
WILEY L. BOLDEN, et al.,
3 Appellees.
ON APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES
COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT
JURISDICTIONAL STATEMENT FILED JUNE 27, 1978
PROBABLE JURISDICTION NOTED OCTOBER 2, 1978
(i)
INDEX
Volume II
Page
Testimony of Lambert Mims................000eeeeeeee 307
Testimony of Gary Greenough... ............. 0 eee eeeee 396
Testimony of Lambert Mims (Resumed)................. 401
Testimony of Gary Greenough (Resumed)........... .. 485
Testimony of James E. Voyles (Resumed)............... 500
Testimony of George Winstanley...................005. 518
OEE OE TOI ks pase ccnrcvisasoxtansenecha 524
PO OE Fe Pike d Shs seiadetbceceeenavcens 540
Testimony of Jack Summerall ...............cceeeceees 545
Testimony of Marion Barnett ................0 cece eeeee 546
Testimony of John A. Calametti....................005. 556 '
CE ANG » iS Suk hth dvens ic eiwienheuhe> ib fKs 568
Plaintiffs’ Exhibits
No. 5 — 1973 Mobile Voter Registration for Selected
POs Paawh ches RAE hac eee eee wir dhleme ree ¢ 572
No. 6 — 1976 Mobile Voter Registration for Selected
MMOS bes EKAS Seda R Ra MOUh endl RNa bere enue 573
No. 7 — Summary Mobile County Voter Registration. .... 574
No. 9 — Excerpts from Voyles Thesis: “An Analysis
of Mobile Voting Patterns, 1948-70” ................ 575
No. 53 — Summary of Statistical Analyses.............. 591
No. 61 — Excerpts from File “Newspaper Ads”’......... 593
No. 62 — Newspaper article ““Numerous Cross
(ii)
No. 64 — Summary of City Committees ............. ...601
No. 65 — File of Grand Jury Report and Newspaper
clippings from 1976 re: Police Brutality............. .605
No. 73 — Summaries of City Employment Data (1975). ..611
No. 75 — Summary — City Streets .................05- 614
No. 111 — Sub exhibit N to Documents regarding
Utilization of Revenue Sharing Funds................ 615,
_ THE COURT:
! a Thursday, sometime between eleven-thirty in the morning
(RECESS)
All right. You may proceed.
MR. ARENDALL:
If your Honor please, during the noon recess,
Mr. Doyle checked his secretary's calendar and it appears
that the call from Mr. Clint Brown came in on April 8th,
and three-thirty-five in the afternoon, the exact time was
not noted, because he accepted the call without his secretary
making some notation that he had called at a certain time
and it appears that the meeting with some of those who
were concerned was held the next day, that is April 9th.
So that it could properly be referred to as a Friday iota
rather than a Thursday meeting.
My understanding is that Mr. Blacksher's own notes,
to the extent that he has them, indicate that that is
correct.
THE COURT:
Fine. Thank you. Are you through with the witness(?
MR. ARENDALL:
Yes, sir.
| THE COURT:
Whom will you have next, please?
RUMP aie Ph ea Fort
i tgs | 825
' larly strong support?
Q Now, Mr. Mims, in your 1965 race for the City )
y, a Well, there was Reverand Tunstall, and Mr. Evans
Commission were there seven candidates including the then | >
and a number of other blacks who played a good part in my
incumbent, Mr. Charles Trimmier?
campaign for re-election.
A Mr. Trimmier was a candidate and I am sure that Frits
} Q Did you visit the non-partisan voters league?
number is correct.
A Not in the '73 campaign. When I ran in 1965, I
Q I will ask you whether or not, in that election you
was screened by the non-partisan voters league.
had a runoff between yourself and Henry Luscher, Jr., whose
: ' Q Did yougo to the polls in 1969 and do you remember |
father had previously been a member of the Commission? i /
any of the activities of Mr. Beasley, at that time? oy
A This is correct.
| A Yes, I do.
Q In 1969, were you again opposed by Mr. Henry Luscher
| Q Tell us about those.
Jr., as well as Charles F. Cooper and were you re-elected
A Well, it has been my policy, every since I have
without a runoff?
_ been involved in politics, on election date, to make as
|
A This is correct. !
| many polls as possible and, on that particular election day
Q In 1973 were there six candidates, including | | \
in 1969, Mr. Beasley was, if my memory serves me correctly, \
Alphonso Smith and Lula Albert, who were black?
| standing at the ward ten balloting place on Davis Avenue and
A This is correct. |
|| it was my understanding that he was actually discouraging
Q Did you win in that race without a runoff?
| black people from coming to the polls and participating in
A I did.
| the election process.
Q Mr. Mims, in that race did you seek black support? | ’
| Q Mr. Mims, before we go into details with respect
A I have always sought black support.
| to your responsibility as public service commissioner, I would
Q Did you have any blacks active in your political
|| Like for you’to outline for the Court the basic set up for
campaign?
| || the supplying of various governmental services to Mobilians? |
A Yes, I did. | | |
| | First, Mobile Water and Sewer Board, what is that? |
Q Could you identify any blacks who pave you particu- | | z x iA sti A a=
| 30
OF re “| om - | i es |
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Well, the Mobile Water and Sewer Board is an
tity separate from the City Commission. The members of
ich are appointed to that board by the City Commission
and this board has the responsibility of providing water and
sewer service to the citizens of the City of Mobile.
Is it established by State law?
Q
A This is correct.
Q Is Mr. Milton Jones a black, a member of that board?
A He is.
'Q Does that board handle City drainage matters?
A Not storm drainage matters.
r That is a function of the City government, itself?
A This is correct and, under the specific duties of
the public works commission.
Q All right. Mobile County Health Department. Would
you give us the relationship of that unit to the City
| government?
a Well, the Mobile County Board of Health has
members who serve at the pleasure of the County Commission, i!
am not mistaken. The City Commissioners do not appoint to
| this board.
However, by statute, by State law, each municipality
‘within the County, as well as the County, has to contribute
| to the Board of Health and in the case of the City of Mobile |
“Tr
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;
‘t
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| we contribute far more than the amount that is prescribed by
_ law. I think we support the Board of Health at the tune of
| two dollars and forty cents per capita when the State law
|
| actually requires sixty cents, if I am not mistaken.
|
, Q Mobile Housing Board?
} A The Mobile Housing Board is also a separate entity an
|
f its function is to provide public housing for the City of
Mobile and the members of that board are appointed by the
|
i]
| Mobile City Commission or more specifically the mayor, who is
serving, at that time.
Q Is that the agency that has been charged of public
housing here and works with the Federal agencies in that
regard?
|
| A This is correct. They work for closely with HUD and
|
the other Federal agencies and, in the past, had been
designated as our urban renewal agency in the City.
/Q Was Mr. John LeFlore a member of the board?
A He was for a number of years.
Q Is there currently, on the board, Mr. John F. Grey,
who is black?
ls He is black, yes.
1Q And he is on that board?
i} :
\A This is correct. |
\} |
1 Q Mobile County Personnel Board?
827
| a
829
—--- — +++
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ment: 3 — ss
_ is opened for secretary or a position has been vacated, and
we need to fill that vacancy, we notify the Personnel Board
| separate from the City Commission. In fact, in many cases .
|
|
} )
[A Well, the Mobile County Personnel Board is certainly |
) that we need to fill this vacancy. They, in turn, furnish us
has more power, in my opinion, than the City Commission, |
with a certified list of qualified people. ‘
because it tells us what to do.
| | | In other words, when we get the list from the
It is a three member board and these board members |
i ' Personnel Board we have the assurance that the names on that
| are selected by a supervisory committee that is made up of :
list have been examined and screened and they are qualified
| one representative from each of the participating governmenta} |
1 | to do whatever it is that we need to have done and, in this
| entities. : |
7 | case, we are talking about a secretary. So, we have five
Q That would be the City of Mobile has only one
| names on the list, say, and then we have the privilege of
memb the supervisory committee?
/ | selecting from the top three and every vacancy within the
A s is correct. And I think there are seventeen
| | City, with the exception of the City Attorney and one or
ear of that committee, and it has been a contingen of |
}
} two appointed positions, every one of them are handled just
}
_ this way.
| the City government for a long time that there is a terrible
i
inadequaty that exists here inasmuch as we are called on to 1
' Q I understand they give you a list of five names,
|
| pay fifty-five percent of the operating costs of this board, |
| | but you may only select from the top three?
yet we only have one vote out of seventeen in selecting the |
| A Well, I just used the number five, there could be ten
board members and, of course, the board members then select |
, om the list, we still can select only from the top three.
a director and they operate the program and screen all
/ Q Out of curiosity, why do they give you more names t
|
applicants for job opportunitites in the City as well as in | . ce
three, then
‘
all of these other governmental agencies.
aA Well, these names move on up the list. Say there ar
Q When the City considers that it wants someone to --
ten names on the list for stenographic secretary, within the
| or wants to fill a position on the City payroll, what procedure
i
system and the City of Mobile this week needs a secretary and
is followed?
| we take the one right off the top. Well, then, the number
A Well, if we want a secretary, for instance, a position .. tL
5 Fas -
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| two person moves up to number one and say maybe the County | percentage of riders would be blacks and it is my under-
might need a secretary and they can select from that top | standing that only four percent of the people of Mobile
three | actually use the service in any one given day.
is. k ?
Q I see. Are there any other agencies that are actually Q That is both black and white oon
A Right.
not part of the City of Mobile's government that perform & -
| important function in providing public services that I have Q Would it be fair to say that an overwhelming number
: of the actual riders are black?
not asked you about?
A This i rrect.
A Well, we have recently set up the Mobile Transit ee
‘ o '
Authority that handles the public transportation for the City | Q Now, let's go to City committees, Mr, Mims. I don't
| know wheth
and then we have an interim airport authority that assists | w whether you were present in Court or not, but the
Plaintiff
the airport commissioners and the City Commissioners in the — 8 have introduced as their Exhibit 64 a list
| supplied by us at thei t of
| operation of the airport. | yusa eir request of all the boards and
committees and so on that are or have been around Mobile in
adjustment and get a variance.
Q Both of those established under State law? |
A Well, the transit authority is under State law and recent years and I am just going to have to go down them one
‘
it is my understanding and we hope some day to have a perma- | ae one
nent airport authority, however, at this time, it is kind of 1 The board of adjustment, is that an agency required by
| an acting authority, for lack of a better word.. We have } State law?
used interim airport authorities | A Yes, and it is one of the more active boards.
. |
Q Does the City subsidize bus service in Mobile? , Q What does it do?
A We do to the tune of three hundred thousand dollars | A It rules on variances. For instance, if the person
a year | wants to add on to his house and build a garage and it is going
. i
Q Would you give us any estimate as to the percentage | to go cver near the line oe than the six foot that is
of blacks and whites respectively who ride the buses? \ allowed, tien that person would come befere this board of
: |
|
A Well, I am sure I am correct in saying that the largest |
ee ae eo
BORG RAV ' a nash OS
Q Doesn't he first go to the City planning commission
and then to the board of adjustment or does he?
A No. I don't think so. The planning commission is
another planning function that I imagine we will get into
later.
Q All right. Of the seven members of that board, is
one of them black?
A Yes, he is.
THE COURT:
Juvt one minute. Please state for me the function
of that board.
OA Your Honor, the function of that board is to grant
variances.
THE COURT:
Zoning laws?
A Well, we have a zoning commission, too, that acts on
property of two acre plots and larger, but say you have a
plot that was smaller than two acres and you wanted to get a
special exception to put a special business or expand your
house beyond the normal limits or something like this, you
would come before this board of adjustment and ask for an
exception and they hear all of these cases and either grant
or deny your request.
THE COURT:
___-_| 832
.. 315
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|
aa
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when it is over with, I will hear from you.
833
Mr. Blacksher and Mr. Arendall, for quick reference
to make some pencil notations on the Exhibit, for instance,
to me doing that?
MR. ARENDALL:
No, sir.
MR. BLACKSHER:
No, sir.
THE COURT:
Let the record show that any notes on here will be
made by me in pencil and if the attorneys have any objection
Go ahead.
| MR. ARENDALL:
Mr. Mims, the board of adjustment would also handle,
| would it not, what are called applications for exceptions
from zoning ordinances as, for example, when jacinto port
wanted to put the fragnation plant out there on the jacinto
port property. They had to go to the board of adjustment
to get a so called exception from the zoning, ordinance, did
they not?
A I am sure this is correct.
Q The next on the list if the air conditioning board.
Is that appointed by the City, iteelf?
316 *.~
for study in the future, if there is no objection, I am going
like board of adjustments set up by State law. Any objection
|
eee - ——4—
A Yes. But there are some requirements that -- I don't
have the ordinance in front of me. There are some specific
regulations as to who goes on there. In other words, it has
to be someone who is familiar with the air conditioning or
refrigeration -- in other words, you don't pick someone who
doesn't know anything about that.
Q What does this board do?
A Well, they screen the applicants for refrigeration and
air conditioning licences, as I understand it.
Q Well, let me read something to you and ask you if this
sounds approximately correct.
The qualifications for membership on this would be
one, air conditioning refrigeration mechanic who is nominated
by the Mobile Chapter of Refrigeration Service Engineers |
Society. One person whose principal business is registered
air conditioning and heating firm nominated by the Mobile
Mechanical Contractors Association. One who is nominated by
Mobile Air Conditioning Contractors Association. One
independent cticing mechanical engineer registered in the
State of Alabama and one representative of the public.
Does that sound about right?
A It sounds like it is.
Q Now, the next one is the architectural .....
THE COURT: |
. oe |
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835
————
I didn't get the function of that
Wait a minute.
|
A That board, as I understand it, your Honor, screens |
applicants for air conditioning licenses and what not, anything
to do with air conditioning and refrigeration. The purpose
|
is to make sure we have qualified people to come to our places
|
of business or your homes. In the event you call an air
conditioning man you can be assured, if he is functioning in |
the City of Mobile, he is qualified to work on your air |
conditioning and not flim-flam you, so to speak.
MR. BLACKSHER:
Your Honor, I don't think that guarantees my air
conditioning work, does it? |
MR. ARENDALL: | Tn
The next on the list is architectural review board. |
Tell us what that does.
A Back to the architectural review board, the board
would review the plans on any remodelling/ projects or any
alterations to any building that might be in a historic
district. The City of Mobile has several historic districts
and you have to go before this board before you can make any
alterations to a building in these districts and this is to
|
assure that the district remains historic and all the buildings
}
‘ncieciehipilariisilaeeitidaly
| more and there have been less.
936 | 3 piece eg i a ie 6
| wh . I appointed him.
dealing with, and again these members are from specific EA SARs OR la
\
inted?
organizations such as the historic development commission ha Q Row iq he henger.¢o get sppetate
OA Well, Mr. Cooper walked into my office one day. I
a member. The preservation society and various other |
. | never seen him before in my life.
organizations make recommendations to us as City Commissioners
He was tall, handsome, black man and introduced himself
and we appoint to this board. .
Q The American Institute of Architects is also | ne Gasy Cooper ant + oem, > at ee te Seep.
| chatted for a few minutes. He said he had just returned oe
recommended to you by the Mobile Association of Architects? | * J
the military. He had been a major in the Marines or whatever
A This is correct.
b h of th ice h i d had ice l hat.
Q Next on the list is the audiotorium board. ! sa asia: ee ae ere eer ram :
| H ssed int t in civic affair d th xt
A Well, the audiotorium board is an active board and i eT eT eet eae Tare M4 _—_
i time an appointment c ° the board I appointe
it is set up to assist the Commissioner in charge of the i ° PPO ame open on tne Pppo d
} Mr. Cooper to the audiotorium board which, I think, was his
_ operations of the audiotorium as well as the City Commission !
| first civ intme ft turning from the military.
in the operation of the audiotorium that serves the entire ROE GENES AURMHR INO SE NNE AE s 7.
community. Q Mr. Mims, is it fair to say that on many of these
| Q Of the twelve members are three black? i boards and committees it is difficult for the City to get
A I am sure that is right. people willing to serve and if someone will show some interest
THE COURT: | in participation in civic affairs they likely can get
That is what the Exhibit shows. | appointed to most anything they want to?
|
| int
A It varies, from tine to time. I think there have beep A This is correct. We look for people we can appoin
| to boards and commissions. You just don't go out and, you
MR. ARENDALL: know, reach in the sky and get a name of someone, you don’;
| y thei
There has been some reference in this case to Mr. Gary eee 6 SR Sey ee msi we duit Cy aan
i performance or don't know that they even have a desire to
| |
1 serve.
Cooper who has testified. Was Mr. Cooper, at one time, a
_ member of the audiotorium board?
5 SEAR HEE BP oA ET
319 aunniie, CaaS _ 320
ceed: | Saree are lh rc lt ah recomeh dnacatnati dia enna eres |
ar areata ate aire nete
838
_ the City and make it more beautiful and engage the community
' in civic pride and clean up programs and things such as this.
| Q Does it largely relate to shrubbery and things of
that sort, or what?
A Well, it has had, as its projects on a number of
We try to put people on these boards that have an
interest in the particular area of responsibility and people
who are willing to serve.
Q What is the Mobile beautification board?
THE COURT:
Does the City appoint all members of the audiotorium
eae ws
A Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT:
All right.
A If I might add, we try to divide these between the
three commissioners. If there is twelve members on the board,
then four would have been appointed by one commissioner and
four by the other and so on. You ark about another board?
MR. ARENDALL:
The Mobile beautification board?
A Well, the Mobile beautification board was set up ~
years ago to do just what it says it does, try to beautify
|
_ occasions, the planting of shrubs along various boulevards |
~ Bet |
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|
4
> Mobile bicentennial.....
in different sections of the City, yes.
THE COURT:
I want to know who appoints these, each one of mae |
A The City Commission.
THE COURT: |
All right. Go ahead.
MR. ARENDALL: |
Q Mobile bicentennial community committee. Who appoints
it?
A The Mobile City Commission set up this committee
fo1 the speciel purpose of celebrating our bicentennial and
they have been quite active during the past year and, at thi
point, they are phasing out and cease to be after this year. |
Q Central City Development Authority. What is that?
A This is a fairly new organization that has been set
up to try to rejuvenate the downtown area of the City as well
as an area just west of the downtown corridor and it reaches
out to the loop area and it is very active in trying to
restore a lot of the area that could, on heats hand,
deteriorate.
Q Mr. Mims, I notice from Exhibit 64 that at least, at
the time that we gave that information to the Plaintirfs,
that committee only had one member. Has it gotten any more
+839.
Q And the downtown Mobile Unlimited, as a director?
‘\
a Yes. He is on it.
THE COURT:
840
since then or do you know?
A Well, yes. There are several. In fact, one of the
members, I think, just passed away. The president of Gayfers
was on it, I know, and Mr. Van Antwerp is a member and Mr.
-- the man with Title Insurance.
Q ; Goebil?
A Goebil is a member and I think the three City
Commissioners serve on this authority, also.
All appointed by the City?
A Yes.
MR. ARENDALL:
Q This, basically, is suppose to have representation of
people who have business interests in the central City?
A This is correct.
Q Board of examining engineers?
A Well, I don't have the Exhibit in front of me, but
this is another one of those similar to the air conditioning
board. There are specific requirements that go with these
appointments. You have to have engineers and soe pnieernamaretentiie |
of these various groups. |
Q Membership is appointed by the City?
.. SRG
oe ARGS STEAL Mae nN ead --_| 84
Yes.
A
Q But it is with reference primarily for people —e
licenses to engage in the business of practicing electricity
here, doing electrical work, is that the purpose of it?
A Did you say electrical? |
Q I am sorry. Engineers? |
A This has to do with stationary engineers, I think. |
THE COURT: |
|
Stationary engineers?
MR. ARENDALL:
I see what it is. Would the qualifications for
membership on this be a practicing engineer having not less |
than five years active experience in a management of seationeey
engines and boilers?
.
A Right.
Q I guess this is sort of a safety group, as far as
whatever stationary engineers are?
A Let me give you an example. The jail, we have hodlere,
and we cannot operate those boilers unless a stationary |
engineer is on duty and that is to keep the:thing from |
blowing up.
Q The next thing is the board of electrical examiners.
Is that appointed by the City?
A Yes, it is.
} A Yes, it is.
| the City Commission?
| Q That has been taken over, its function, I suppose,
| have been taken over by this new transit authority that has
' and Federal highway administration regulations and this
_ group is not active any longer, as I understand it.
| been established?
A Well, not necessarily.
Q My notes indicate that the qualifications here are
appointed by the Mobile Electric and IBEW number five zero
five, which is a union and by Alabama Power Company; is that
right?
A This is correct.
Q _ What do they do?
A Well, they examine applicants for electrician
licenses. In other words, we want to make oure that the
people who have a license to do business in the City of
Mobile are qualified and they have to go before this board
and they are questioned by people who know something about
electricity.
Q The next one on the list is Citizens Advisory Group
for the mass transit technical study. Is that appointed by
That was in compliance with some State
ae SF
This had to do with major
arteries and these people represented the community and looke
into the plans and did research and discussed the impact.
This artery -- I think we are talking about the Congress
- Donald Street artery.
They talked about the impact it would have on the
commmity and so forth and so on. To the best of my know-
ledge, it has served its purpose and is no longer active.
Q I am not sure, Mr. Mims, that I understand, because
the next list on here, the next on this list is Citizens
Advisory Committee, Donald - Congress - Lawrence Street and
Three Mile Creek freeway, is that the same group as the
A No.
The one I had talked
|
mass transit study technical group, are they the same? |
I had the two confused.
about, that had served its purpose. I am talking about the
Congress, Donald group.
Q You had determined what the location of that freeway
would be and that kind of thing? |
A Right.
Q What about the other one, advisory group for the
mass transit technical study? |
A Well, that is some of our staff people, if my S|
serves me correctly. I think Mr. Peavy serves on that |
committee and various technical staff people. |
Q The Exhibit indicates there are eight members of |
whom three are black.
Does that help refresh your memory
on that?
_. BRS.
_ ——-- --—
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844
A I couldn't tell you, to save my life, who they are.
So, you will have to pass on that one.. I am sorry.
Q The next one is the codes advisory committee. Is
that appointed by the City Commission?
A Yes, it is.
Q Does that committee relate to drawing up codes, as
far as building codes are concerned?
A This is correct.
Q Mr. Mims, I believe I am going to give you a copy of
this Exhibit 64, if I may, so it might help you remember
what each of these organizations are?
A Well, we often say we have fifty-seven varities here
on these boards. So, it is kind of confusing.
Q I will ask you if the qualifications for membership
on the codes advisory committee; an architect, one structural
engineer, a member of the American Society of Civil Engineer.
one mechanical engineer, a member of the society of heating
and refrigeration engineers, one electrical engineer, a
member of the American Institute of Electrical Engineers and
the engineer of the city of Mobile; one member of the Building
Trades Council; one member of the Association of General
Contractors; one member from the Mobile Home Builders
Association; and one member from the Mobile Real Estate
Association; and one member of the Mobile Air Conditioning
contractors. Does that sound about right to you?
A Yes, it does.
Q Now, actually, these building codes normally follow
the so called southern building code, as worked up in
municipalities all over the south and perhaps all over the
country, do they not?
A This is correct.
Q The next on the list is the commission on progress. |
Is that appointed by the City Commission?
A Yes, it is.
Q What is it?
A The commission on progress is actually a bi-racial
committee and that was the title or the name of the committee
}
for many years, a bi-racial committee of the City of Mobile,
and it was at my suggestion a number of years ago that we |
change the name to Commission on progress, because we were
dealing with a lot of matters other than race oriented
matters.
Originally it was set up to deal with the race
problems in our community and, over the years, met a great
need in the community.
Q Now, did it, for example, have anything to do with |
a Mobile restaurant downtown being integrated before they were
elsewhere in the State? |
_. SR7 :
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. CNRS Ra Mi ce an ma ea
THE COURT:
A Yes, they were. re
'
MR. BLACKSHER: ; y | Just a minute. Who appointed the code advisory,
the City?
Your Honor, I object to counsel testifying. | | » 'SEEy
| A Yes, sir.
MR. ARENDALL: 1 |
. THE COURT:
I think it was leading.
Commission on progress, the City?
Q I will ask you, were there any informal discussions
ae A Yes.
and arrangements made that did lead to the integration of |
| MR. ARENDALL: |
downtown lunch counters? i |
Q The next one is the educational building authority. |
| Who appoints it? |
Q At what point in time did that occur with reference
A This is no doubt a City appointed b eo
to other cities in Alabama? ee te ee |
I am not mistaken it is ome of these propositions wh this |
A Well, it was during the sixties when there were a Poet et aes “|
board is used as a vehicle whereby financing can be obtained |
for educational purposes. I am not sure if this is the
lot of turmoil not only in this community but in many
commmities and this bi-racial committee as it was known at
|
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A Yes.
|
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| University of South Alab which
that time, worked long and hard to assure that black people . ‘ eae ee oe iP atte ia
| have several, if memory serves me correctly that
would have free access to any place they desired to go, not | ” i sf Le
. iene: Nik en Nik te ek es ee appoint three to five members to this authority and then
only resta . . ° 2
| bonds are sold and this educational facility retires th
see that blacks were hired in the banks and in the savings y Fetere ose
' bonds.
and loan businesses and in the downtown businesses and we
|
| You think this must b £ the ind
went to a great deal of effort to see that black people were | : Pees Looe Te
; | agencies where they get approval of the cit
put in these responsible places. ; | ' pe eg nee Ae OE ree
| incorporated and they sell tax exempt bonds in aid of a
Q Those efforts have your personal support and assis- |
| blic welf
cance? | pu welfare type of program? |
lA Yes.
A Well, absolutely. t | ”
He
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ee
ted
Q Mobile area public higher education foundation?
A This would be the same type of entity set up strict];
for -- as a vehicle where these funds can be obtained in
the facility built for public use.
Q Find Arts Museum of the South at Mobile. Membership
there appointed by the City deinidaeeent
A Yes. And normally we appoint peaple who are interest
in fine arts, people who express interest in the museum and
in some cases, people who have made sizeable contributions
to art in the museum in Mobile.
Q This is the committee that is in charge of running
what we use to call the art gallery in mmicipal park; isn't
that correct?
A This is correct.
Q Are the nominees for it submitted by the Mobile
Art Association, the allied arts council, the art partons
league, the art gallery board and the Mobile County
Commission and the City Commission?
A This is correct.
Q Fort Conde Plaza development authority. Is it
appointed by the city?
A Yes, it is, and this is an unusual arrangement. The
three City Commissioners serve on this authority as well as
four other people who represent the interests within that
848
plaza. In other words, some of the owners of property or
representatives of owners of property and, in one case,
Mrs. Bester Ward represents the Fort Conde Charlotte House,
which is a historic museum within that complex. The purpose
of this authority is to promote that plaza area.
|
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Q And to get private industry and businesses to
develop things that would be consistent with the historical |
area?
THE COURT:
This Exhibit only reflects four members. I assume
then that you left off the City Commissioners that had
membership?
A Apparently, your Honor.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. ARENDALL:
Q Mobile Historical Development Committee. Is that
appointed by the City?
A Yes, it is. We have certain stipulations as to
who goes on there. In other words, various groups make
recommendations, normally people interested in historic
development.
|
Q Let me read some names to you and see if this sounds
about right. The Allied Arts Council, the American
|
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3SZ-
etic =~ -——j
_————$ $4
Association of University of Women, American Institute . be sa Yate
of Architects, Art Patrons League, Colonial Danes, Three Q The next is the Malaga Day Committee / is that .....
City Commissioners, County Board of Realtors, Mobile Jaycees
If you don't mention who appoints them, I assume
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| ‘THE COURT:
Women's Architectural League, dowmtown Mobile Unlimited, |
|
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Fort Conde Charlotte House, Colonial Danes, Historical Mobil the. City appoints then.
Preservation Society, Historic Mobile Tours, Inc., Jaycettes, | MR. ARENDALL: |
Junior League, Chamber of Commerce, County Board of | Yes, sir.
Commissioners, Oakleigh Garden Society and Richard's DAR | Q Mr. Mims, unless the City does not appoint them, let
House, does that sound about right? _ us know, otherwise I won't even ask you the question. We
A Yes. | will just assume the City appoints them.
Q Independence Day celebration committee? | A On this Malaga Day Committee, I am not sure that
A Well, this is a committee that has been appointed by | is even still in existence. It could be or could not be.
the City Commission that started back in 1972 when we decide ! We have a sister city's program and Malaga, Spain
we need to have an Independence celebration every year. Thi is one of our sister cities and we have had some celebrations
committee puts on the 4th of July celebration held at Ladd | here called Malaga Day celebrations and I am not even sure
Stadium. | that committee is still funding.
Q How meny people did you have this year? | Q If members were a group who went to Malaga in 1965
A We had thirty-five thousand people. and got the sister city thing going.....
THE COURT: | A They have been the prime movers of this Malaga Day
How many does that Ladd Stadium hold? | progran.
A About forty-six thousand, something like that. ; | Q The Mobile Housing Board. Now, that is a highly
MR. ARENDALL: | | significant group, is it not?
The next one is the Industrial Development board. | A The Mobile Housing Board is one of the most important
Is this another one of these financing arrangements? | : boards that we have and simply because it provides public a ee
.. 3833 | j 334 |
852
housing and meets the need of so many people in the
community. This is one of our most important boards.
Q And I asked you about that, of course, in my earlier
examination?
A Yes.
Q . Next is the Mobile Medical Clinic Board - psychiatri
r
Is this another one of these internal revenue bond organiz-
ations?
A It is a vehicle for financing.
Q Yes. And the Mobile Medical Clinic Board, Tranquil
Aire, that was a vehicle for financing the building where
Tranquil Aire is located?
A Yes.
Q The Port City Medical Clinic Board. That is another
such organization, is it not?
A That is correct.
Q The next is Mobile Medical Clinic Board, Springhill.
A Yes. This is correct. If I might add here, your
Honor, the City Commission has very little, if anything, to
do with these boards once we make these appointments.
In other words, we have recommendations made to us
and we try to put responsible people on these boards and
once the financing is arranged then really there is nothing
Cc.
more for us to do. So, we have a lot of -- it looks like
——
.. 335
f Hanae
|
‘
EE
a lot of boards here, but some of them we don't have much
to do with.
Q Mr. Mims, I will ask you if this isn't a typical
way, three doctors decide they want to start a hospital and
they want to arrange financing through tax exempt bonds and
they come to the City Commission and say that three of us
are getting ready to build another hospital at such and such
a place and we need one of these industrial revenue boards
created. Would you appoint the three of us or maybe they
say our accountants or our lawyers, some people to go in that
they designate and y'all do what they ask you to do?
a This is the way that works.
Q The Medical Clinic Board of the City of Mobile. The
Medical Clinic Board, - second, that is the same kind of
thing?
A Right.
Q The Mobile Medical Clinic Board, the same kind of
thing?
A Right.
Q Now, we come to the Mobile Library Board. Is that
appointed by the City?
A Yes, it is, and it is with the Commissioner ‘in charg¢
of the operation of the libraries.
Q How much money does the City contribute to the |
336..
aati aemneateaacbirenn _——
853
Lt ——
! I am not mistakened, this is a fairly new arrangement here.
libraries here, do you know?
A Several hundreds of thousands of dollars. I don't
have that figure in front of me, seven or eight hundred
a ih ‘
thousand dollars a year.
Q Greater Mobile Mental Health Retardation Board. That
is another one of those industrial development bond boards,
is it not?
Bs Well, not necevsartly. I think this is a require-
ment of the Federal government that we set up such a board
and these Federal funds are channeled down through this board
and then allocated to Mental Health and other things.
Q Does the City Commission appoint the members?
A Yes.
Q Is this the group that works in conjunction with the
rotary clinic or elsewhere? What agency.......
a Well, they work with the Mobile Mental Health Center
I know that, and I suppose any other organization that was
in this business of helping the handicapped and they would gp
to this board and clear any application or what-not that they
might have as far as federal funds are concerned, kind of
a screening board, as I understand it, to try to bring it in
altogether to keep things from going in every direction. If
Q Pier and Marina committee?
_. 337
A Well, at one time, we had wanted to build a public
marina over here just this side of the battleship and we had
high hopes of it becoming a reality until we ran smack into
the EPA people and they put such a damper on us, you might
say, that the committee has already served its purpose and
we didn't accomplish anything.
Q The Mobile Planning Commission?
A The Mobile Planning Commission is an important
commission, because it has to do with zoning and the plannin
of the City and many of the improvements that are being made
today in the City of Mobile are end results of planning
that took place ten years ago.
Q All right. Policemen and fire fighters pension
and relief fund board?
A Well, this board, as I understand it, administers the
funds and tries to get as much return on the money as they
can so that they can meet the obligations of the fund.
Q Is this created under State act? .
A IT am not sure about that. I really am not. I know
some of the people who serve on it, but I am not sure.
Q I will ask you if this sounds right to you that the
the police chief is designated and that there are three bank
on it and one man owning his business and one who has lis
+-
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t
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. 388i
fire chief is designated in an act creating the board and
AY
}
own investment business, the basic purpose of this is to
see to the proper investment of the funds that are ultimately
to be paid out for pensions and relief for policemen and
fire fighters?
A This is correct.
Q Next is the Mobile Tree Commission?
A Well, this is an important commission. If you want
to get a tree cut, because you had better not cut one unless
you go through them. We usually try to put people on this
committee or commission that is interested in preservation o
iii.
trees and I think it is a good committee and they work awful
ha-d to preserve the beauty of our City, namely our trees.
Q Next is the Neighborhood improvement Council?
A Neighborhood Improvement Council, no doubt has done
as wuch or more than any other group to improve our neighbor+
hoods. They go into the neighborhoods and have meetings,
encourage the property owners to upgrade their property, to
clean up, fix up, paint up, and it is quite an active group.
Q Mr. Mims, there has been some testimony here from
residents of various areas of the City with reference to
what they feel are inadequacies in City services in their
own areas?
A Yes.
Ie this an agency that relates itself to that problem
or not?
A Well, the neighborhood improvement council has
commmity meetings and they run articles in the medium and
in the newspapers. Usually they will have the community
that they are having the meeting in, the blow up of the map |
~- say it is going to be the Dog River area where I live or |
the South Brookley area, they would have a map of that area |
and they would they are going to have a neighborhood |
improvement meeting in that area and every citizen in that
area is encouraged to come and express themselves, at that
particular meeting, and they go into things like the code,
what you need to do to bring your house up to standard,
up to the code, and help people know how to improve their
dwellings and their living conditions, and much has been
done in these communities because of the neighborhood
improvement council.
Now, they also, for instance, say they go into a
coummsity and citizens complain about the lack of street
lights. Then Mr. Locke, who is the secretary of this
improvement council, he would come back and write me a memo
as public works commissioner in charge of the street lights,
and say last night we met in Cottage Hill, or wherever it
might be, and we found, in a certain area, the street
lighting, in our opinion, is not up to the City policy or
_. 339 |
the City standard. Then I would direct the electrical
superintendent to go and make a survey of this area, come
back then and give me his recommendation and if the area was
net’ lighted in accordance with our policy then we would,
as rapidly as we could, light the area in accordance with
the City's policy. .
Q What is the City's policy?
A On street lights?
Q Yes.
A We have a light on every corner and every two hundred
and fifty feet down the Street or mid-block, or at the
end of dead ends, which is adequate lighting, and we sgl
an award last year as being one of the best lighted cities
in the United States.
Q Mr. Mims, I have references here to three different
organizations, the names of which appear to me to be ssileail
similar.
We have been talking about the Neighborhood
Improvement Council that is headed by Mr. Joe Locke. There
is a community service group, is there not?
A Well, no.. There may be a service community group,
but you may have that confused with a program that I
instituted a number of years ago that I call community
service meetings.
a
Q What is that?
2 Well, this is a program whereby I go into the
neighborhoods with members of my staff, primarily, and on
occasion we take someone répresenting the police and
fire department and the parks department and other depart-
ments, but primarily people from public works and we go |
into the communities and have a meeting at a school or parks
building or community building, somewhere centrally located
as we could in the community and invite the public to these
meetings and try to get input from the public and then go
back and try to respond as rapidly as we can to the requests
of the people.
Q What is the difference between the neighborhood
improvement council and your community service meetings or |
do they just overlap? |
A Well, they could overlap, but the neighborhood
improvement meetings are.-- they deal primarily with the
upgrading of the homes, of the residences in a given area
where the community service meetings deal mostly with the
needs from a public works standpoint.
In other words, the drainage problems, the lighting
problems, the street problems, sanitation services and things
like this. What I was trying to do when I initiated this
program several years ago was to get input from the people,
_. 641
os —-- a — —_—--—— —_—— — - ae on
342. |
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because it has been my sincere desire all along to meet the
need of this community regardless of who they are or where
they live. The only way to know the needs is to get out
in the community and hear from the people.
The television people and more specifically, WKRG,
for a period of a year or two, went to everyone of these
neoeings and taped these meetings and played a portion of
the meetings back at a later date and they were not only
viewed, -- the programs were viewed by the whole community.
In other words, if we met in Toulminville, for instance,
then the next Sunday or whatever, the whole area could see
that we had had a meeting. And I might say, speaking of the
Toulminville meeting, if I might, we have a swimming pool
at Gorgas Park today and it is solely because of the idea t
was brought up at one of these commmity service organizati
meetings and I came back to the City Commission with the
idea and the City Commission approved it and, today, the
kids are out there swimming this afternoon because of that.
Q Do you have these meetings, then, in the black areas
as well as in the white?
A Yes. It has been my policy to have them in every
area of the City. In fact, we took the old ward map and
tried to put about three wards together and have a meeting
in an area that would cover about three wards and then the
_. dad:
Ce ee ee ee eT ee
ward map was changed and so we quit using the old ward map
and now we just go to different areas.
Last week I made Trinity Episcopal Church in an
area called the Chapman Improvement area. Three or four
weeks ago I met with a group out in the Carver Court area.
Q That is a black area?
A Which was a predominantly black area and then, a
few weeks prior to that, we met with another group -- I will
have to get my records to tell you where I have been over
the last months, but we have periodic meetings out in the
community with the people and, in addition to that, I make
it a point to ride in these communities myself to know what
is going on.
Q As long as I am asking you about things with somewhat
similar names, what is the community development program?
A Well, the community development program of the
City of Mobile is certainly not to be confused with another
organization known as the community development project.
We are talking about now the City of Mobile's commmity
development program.
This is a program set up and we have a committee
called the commmity development committee to make improve-
ments in the commmities throughout Mobile, taking advantagé
|
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of Federal funds.
Now, these Federal Funds, at one time, were designa
You would get so many millions of dollars for this and so
many ror that. Congress changed all of that and now they
send the money dow in a block, one lump sum, and then we,
as public local officials, have to make a decision on where
these monies are to be spent.
Now, in order for us to set priorities as three
elected commissioners, we have established this community
development committee that holds meetings in the various
neighborhoods and we have set some priorities on these
funds. So, this is what the community development program
is.
Q That is the program that is headed by Mr. Barnett,
is it not?
A He is one of the members of the committee. I think
Jimmy Alexander may be is the chairman.
Q The Housing Board man?
A Yes.
j What we did, if I might add, we put the planner,
Mitch Barnett, the public words director, the Housing
Authority Executive Director, the finance director, as well
as the building inspection department head on this
committee.
| 862
. 3845
We felt like we had a cross section of the people
who were going to actually get the work done once we initiat
it. These people are going to be held to be responsible
for carrying.out these projects.
I am sure you have the map showing where all of |
these projects are and where this money is going to be |
spent and I am sure that will be introduced later on during |
this trial.
Q All right. I think I left out here and let's go
back to it.
I believe we are now on the plumbers examining
board.
THE COURT:
Just a minute. Let me ask him a question.
With reference to this neighborhood improvement
council, I understand there is some ordinance or regulation
or something in a city with reference to requiring people --~
with reference to their homes to keep them in a certain
state of repair and painted; is that correct?
A This is correct.
THE COURT:
Now, if that is correct, then the question I want
to ask you is this neighborhood improvement council related
to those matters?
346"
ed
ONTERA: ¢ —
A Yes, it does, your Honor.
MR. ARENDALL:
The plumbers examining board.
these qualifications sound about right. The chief plumbing
I will ask you if
inspector, one master plumber, a member of the mechanical
contractor's association, one master plumber, a member of
the master plumber's association, one journeyman plumber and
one representative of the pubk{jc?
A This sounds correct.
Q And this is with reference to the licensing of
plumbers?
A This is right.
Q The recreation advisory board. I see from Exhibit
64 that members of that board's term expired in 1974 and
they were not re-appointed. What was the purpose of that
board and what was the thinking about not re-appointing it?
A If my memory serves me correctly, the Commissioner
in charge of recreation, at that time, proposed this
advisory board and if I am not mistakened, he recommended
these names to the City Commission and we appointed them
and they were to help him with Wis recreation program. Now,
I did not come in contact with these people.
Q So, you think I had better ask Mr. Greenough about
that?
.. DAZ . a |
a ae le ne RD ahaa
a
ee
I think you had better asked Mr. Bailey about that.
Mr. Bailey was the one?
Yes, sir.
The South Alabama regional planning commission?
ae fe ee ee
The South Alabama regional planning commission is
what it says it is. It is a regional planning commission.
It is a three county operation and local officials, as well
as appointed officials, serve on the regional planning
commission and every application for Federal funding
comes through this regional planning commission.
Now, what we have done, as far as the City of
Mobile's government is concerned, we have appointed members
of our regular City planning commission to this commission
and, of course, you see the number there.
It says one black and six total members, but there
are many blacks who serve on the South Alabama regional
planning commission from the other cities and from the
other counties that are represented on this commission.
THE COURT:
Total members of Mobile, though, is six; is that
A This is correct, your Honor.
MR. ARENDALL:
I believe I have already asked you about the board
346
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4
865
pee
866
of water and scwer commissioners.
Now, the employees insurance advisory board.
A Thie board was set up to help the City Commissioners
select the right kind of insurance program for our
employees. We selected persons from the various department
to serve on this board and to screen all insurance programs
before these programs are presented to the City Commission
for approval.
For instance, if xyz company were to come to my
office this afternoon and say, look, we have a fantastic
plan and it is going to cost three dollars a month and
blah blah blah, and we wa... to put it on payroll deduction
and we would send this xyz company before this board and
let this board screen them and then if the board, represent
all of the employees, thought that this was a fantastic
deal and they wanted it and they would bring it to the City
Commission and say we think this is great and She tenis these
people can get more than the amount required. We have to
three hundred before we put anything on payroll deductions.
And we say, okay. ‘The committee approved it. You go out
and get your three hundred and dor't come back until you
have your three hundred, because we are not going to put
it on payroll deduction.
THE COURT:
1g
ve
ee
I lost out on the board of water and sewer
commissioners.
MR. ARENDALL:
I guess we can come back to that, Judge. This is the
organization established under state law, which runs sani-
tary sewer and water for the city and, indeed, some outlying
areas, doesn't it?
A This is correct. I might add, in addition to the
housing board, this is, without a doubt, one of the most
important boards that we have, because every family in the
City of Mobile is affected by this board and we could have sa |
black gentleman on this board.
THE COURT:
Although it is established by state law, does the
City make the appointments?
A Yes, sir. We maka the appointments.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. ARENDALL:
This is the board that Mr. Von Sprecken is chief
career man on; isn't it?
A That's right.
He is the superintendent of the water
and sewer board.
869
MR. ARENDALL:
We expect to have him here, Judge.
All right. The next one is Mobile County Hospital
Board and I have some notation on my copy of this Exhibit --
I am not sure it is on the original. It looks like your
typing and it says "Owned by University of South Alabama.
City has no connettion”" .
A I am not sure that this board. even functions any
longer. You know, we turned the hospital over to the
university and they operate it. We have no connection with
it any longer.
Q I see. Frank S. Keeler Memorial Hospital?
A I think they are out of business, also.
Q The Arts Hall of Fame committee. Do you know what
that is?
A Well, it looks like one member and I am not sure who
that is unless it is the recreation commissioner.
Q See if this sounds like a 1971 state act under which
persons are to be elected to the State Arts Hall of Fame and
must have background in arts and the City Commissioner has
appointed a representative of the Mobile Art Gallery Board;
does that sound about right?
that another one of these industrial revenue bonds?
A Yes. It is strictly a financing thing.
Q And the educational board? ©
A _ ‘The educational board, no doubt here, is the group
of employees that we have that screens the applicants for
furthering their education. In other words, we try to
co-operate with our employees as much as we can so that they
might further their education.
In fact, the City Commission pays a portion of
employees tuition, say, at the University and, say, patrolman
Jones wanted to go to school at night and take up criminal
law, or whatever, and he would make his application to the
City Commission through this educational board and the board
then would screen this applicant and make sure he is sincere
in what he is trying to do and we have requirements that you
have to stay with the City "x" number of years. I think it td
three years after you get your degree or after you use this
money or else you have to refund the money, but these boards
screen these employees.
Q Members of that board are largely employees of the
City, members of the public, or what type of persons?
A As I recall it, they are employees, department heads,
A It sounds about right to me. and maybe someone from the personnel board on here.
Q The next is Public Education Building authority. Is Q Now, Mr. Mims, there has been a lot of testimony in
352
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here about surface drainage in Mobile.
THE COURT:
Why don't we take a break right here. Take about a
fifteen minute break.
(RECESS)
THE COURT:
| All right. You may proceed.
MR. ARENDALL:
If your Honor please, I would like to apologize to
the Court on an error in judgement that I made. Mr. Mims had
told me that at four-thirty that he had to leave here in ordey
to get to Santa Rosa Island to speak to some three or four
hundred people. I told him that I thought we could have
completed the examination and cross-examination. I have
taken so long with my direct today that I doubt if we make it
THE COURT:
Just go ahead and let him finish up tomorrow.
MR. ARENDALL:
Thank you, Judge.
problems?
A That is correct.
Q Tell us generally about them and what you have done
|
and indicate whether or not you have sought to treat fairly
Mr. Mims, your department has charge of Mobile drainage
870
871
_. 353
/
the various black areas.
A Well, under the supervision of the public works
commissioner, comes the general heading of drainage and, of
course, the City of Mobile has been plagued with severe
drainage problems for not only decades, but I would assume
centuries. The ground or the topography here, the City is
built on the river, as you know, and it all started right
here near the river and moved westward.
. It is very low lying areas and we had tremendous
problems in the old part of Mobile with drainage. We have
tremendous problems in the new part of Mobile with erosion
and the sand washes down off of the hills into the low lying
areas and clogs up the drainage systems in the old sections
of the city.
So, for centuries we have had drainage problems. There
has been a lot of talk about drainage for a number of years,
but there was not an awfully lot done about it until
recently.
When I first ran for office in 1965 and my advertising
material and my brochures will substantiate this, that one of
my main concerns was drainage and alleviating the problems t
existed. So, the first thing I did was to try to establish
some kind of systematic maintenance program and we gave
~ 354%
872
instructions to the public works superintendent and to all
drainage personnel that these drainage easements were to be
maintained on a periodic basis. We bought some of the finest
equipment that can be bought to clean catch basins and to clean
storm drains. Some of the most modern equipment to clean
ditches like Three Mile Creek and One Mile Creek and Bolton's
Branch and Saltwater Branch and the various others -- what
we call unimproved drainage easements and it has been our
policy, over the last ten years, to maintain these easements
on a regular basis and testimony here during this trial has
indicated that the city has cleaned these drainage easements
on a periodic basis.
In addition to the maintenance program, the cleaning
of these drainage easements, we have entered into what we
call the master drainage program of the City of Mobile. For
a number of years we tried to get into this and finally came
to the conclusion that we were not going to ever get this
drainage corrected until we just, you might say, go into it
headlong and try to find the money and sell bonds and get the
revenue or the bonds to do the projects.
So, in 1972 the City Commission met and nena to
the master drainage program. We have sold bonds, millions of
dollars worth of bonds, to be paid over to the next number of
years and we are making many improvements in areas of both
873
_. 835
white and black where problems have existed for over a hundred
years, in some cases.
I have gone into these communities and talked to our
citizens, both black and white, about the problems and with
the resources available, I think the City of Mobile has come
a long way in improving the drainage in our city.
drainage program, as far as I am concerned, has been cassie tas
and promoted without regard to race, whatsoever.
Q Let's see, what is the total estimated cost of that
program?
A Well, we started out with about twenty million, but
I imagine, by 1980, we will have spent thirty million dollars
THE COURT:
What do you mean you started out?
A Well, that was our projected program, but inflation
and other things have caused prices to go up and we had added
to the project and .......
MR. ARENDALL:
Do you have outside engineering consultants to advise
you with reference to that, or is this done by city personnel
A Well, when we went into this program we assigned thre
engineering companies to this master drairage program and the
engineers have certain water sheds assigned to them. We have
three water sheds in Mobile; the Three Mile Creek water shed,
Our master
"
4
356:
874 ;
— §75
The Dog River - Eslava Creek water shed, and the Mobile River say you would alvays be protected from a storm or flooding
water shed. Every drop of water that falls into Mobile, goes situation. Worms] flooding conditions will be eased tremen-
into one of these three water sheds. | dously when this entire program has been completed, but if you
ineering, \
Each one of these engineering firms, Polyengine . have what they call a hundred year flood come, you know, the
Comp f thes et
David Volkhert and J. B. Conversing ony, have ane whole area could get under water. We can't protect the area
| ignin
_water sheds assigned to them and they are doing the designing completely from God's floods, you know.
. de a
of the storm water system in these areas. We have made Q is ceniieey pees whhee erens. thet eve hed thie
in the Cit
| great deal of progress. There is not an area in the 4 problems and I would like for you to mention some of those
’ has been
but what you can't see some of the progress that specific locations, if you will, please.
am and, in the
brought about because of this drainage progr A Well, there is one project that we have under way
hat can be presented
years between now and 1980, the program that can ° right now that has -- where there is a need and the need has
here shows our projected projects. been there for a hundred years, I am sure. I know it has
f the three water |
Q Has some work been done in each o 4s been there for over fifty years, because I know people who
| °
| shed areas? were born there fifty years or more ago.
A Yes. This is true. Q Where is that?
ih Approximately how much money have you spent so far on
| actual out of pocket expenditures, to date? Could you give
A This is in the Laurel - Devitt - Monterey Street
area and I might add that-we had a community meeting there
us that figure? with some people, including Mr. Brown, whose name has been
: han t illion :
A I can't recall, but {t would be more than ten a mentioned here and other testimony and I think he would have
the master drainage progran.
SOhIAee MOR ROM: ONE Tee 2 Se west to admit that he got mighty good response out of the City
1 that once it is c leted
' Ep, ee ee on government in this project. We're spending over a million
d tely drained?
Chat MOREL Wiad. SHOR MO ASR TEAROY dollars in the Monterey - Laurel - Devitt Street area. This
) 1d r find an engineer
A Well, I don t think you would, eve . need has beer: there, as I said, for low many years.
or politician, either, that was in his right mind that would olan >.
_. 337 358°
I am familiar with Monterey Street, which is between
Springhill Avenue and Government Boulevard. Is that the
Monterey area you are talking about?
A Yés, your Honor.
THE COURT:
Does it go also south of Government Street?
A Monterey does.
MR. BLACKSHER:
Yes, sir. One block.
THE COURT:
The area you are speaking of is north of Government?
A Yes, sir.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. ARENDALL:
Now, let's talk about drainage and some of these othe
areas that there has been some testimony about. There has be
some talk here about Trinity Gardens, that area came into the
City only in 1961, did it not?
A I believe that is when the vote was taken by the
people in that area. It was in 1965, I believe, that service
were provided and the people began to pay taxes.
Q Just in a general way, would you tell us what the
basic problem is there, as you understand it, with reference
r
to
876
359
877
drainage?
A Well, I will be happy to, because I have been in the
Trinity Gardens area many times and must confess that the
problem there is an unusual problem and it is mainly because
the area lies between some railroads and down in kind of a
low land or flat land that has been described here, in testi-
mony, that was like a saucer, which is a good way to describe
it, because it is going to take an awful lot of drainage to
get the water out of the area and we have been working on it
over the years and, with our community development program
that we mentioned here earlier, we should be able to drain
this area and then we can move on into the paving of the
streets.
Q When it gets drained, where does the water go? On
what water shed is it located?
A This goes into the Three Mile Creek water shed.
Q Isn't that going to compound your problems on Three
Mile Creek that you heard testimony here about, the Crichton
problem? Wouldn't that compound your problem?
A Any time you put more water into a stream, I guess
you compound your problems. However, we have worked
extremely hard to get Three Mile Creek cleaned out on the
end near the river and we have spent thousands upon thousands
of dollars dredging Three Mile Creek and we feel that, with
360
these improvements, as well as the study that is being made
now by the Corp of Engineers and, incidentally, this bill ae
just passed whereby a hundred and fifty thousand dollars in
planning money for the Corp of Engineers was set aside.
The Corp of Engineers fit into this Three Mile Creek,
because Three Mile Creek runs into Mobile River and Mobile
River is part of the Tennessee, Tom Bigby program. Anyway,
we have a hundred and fifty thousand dollars planning money
and the Corp of Engineers is going to help us with the
drainage on Three Mile Creek.
Q There has been some talk, also, about drainage
problems in the Plateau area.
On what water shed is that?
THE COURT:
Where does Three Mile Creek run into Mobile River?
A Well, it crosses Telegraph road north of here where
the little bridge is where you see some little tugboats
sitting there, right north of the State Docks, to be more
specific.
THE COURT:
| All right.
MR. ARENDALL:
Going back to Trinity Gardens for just a moment.
I understood you to say as soon as you could get your
878
_. 861
drainage worked out there, then you would go in with street
paving; is that right?
A * This is correct and, if I might say this, one of
my concerns naturally has been the streets of Mobile and the
only unimproved streets we have left within the city, you
might say, are located in the Trinity Gardens area. We have
paved dozens of miles of streets in the last ten years in
Mobile and we have a few left in Trinity Gardens.
It is absolutely impossible for us to pave these
streets until we drain the area. We have paved some streets
in Trinity Gardens,the ones we felt like we could pave and,
you know, get by with, so to speak. Because it is absolutely
money thrown away to go out and put asphalt in an area that
you can't dry out and the streets will stay torn up all the
time and fail and you will have a problem, sure enough
problem, on your hands.
So, we have just about paved every street in the
City of Mobile with the exception of those right there in
Trinity Gardens which we hope to get as soon as we get the
area drained as with these community development funds.
Q Now, there has been some talk about Plateau.
On what water shed is it, or does it have a drainage
problem? | |
A Not what you would call a general drainage problem
gee"
i
—————-——
like Trinity Gardens. I doubt if you could point to any
community in the City and say it is completely free of all
drainage problems.
But Plateau does not have the general problem as aed
Trinity Gardens.
Q There was some talk here about dead bodies getting
wehed away. Would you tell us about that, if you know
anything pn it?
A I think that was an exaggeration. It was called to
my attention a year or so ago that there was a problem with
a cemetary. We did some work around this cemetary and some
a
of my staff people can elaborate on that more than I and get
into detail on it, but we did do some work around the cemetary.
I understand that this area was being used as a burying place
down off the side of a hill and on down into what you might
call a slew or spillway or drainage easement and I am sure
that in case cf a flash flood or something of this sort, the
whole area was covered with water and it is very likely that
some of the grave sites were covered ek Se because the
people are buried right on down into the low land.
I don't know where the health department has been, or
whoever is supposed to regulate the cemetaries, but whoever te
supposed to inspect cemetaries and regulate them, apparently
were not stopping the burying of people down in these low
~ 363 |
places.
I think you could safely say, in some places, when a
flash flood came that the water, perhaps, covered the graves.
As far as bodies floating around, I think that is an exagger
Q There has also been some complaint about the drainag
in the Crichton - Liberty Park area?
A Yes. There is a tremendous problem in that area.
To my knowledge, it doesn't present any flooding problem,
but there is a big ditch that comes down through Crichton
that originates up about Pages Lane or back of Delchamps
Shopping Center there and goes down by Nall Street and
across Bayshore and Mobile Streets and on into Three Mile
Creek. It is a huge drainage easement. The people in the
area continuously are filling it with old tires and litter
and furniture and the maintenance problem is tremendous.
Some homes have been built right up on the edge of
the creek. We are aware of some of these problems, but we
are also aware of the fact that it is going to cost several
millions of dollars to correct this problem. It is in our
master drainage program and it will be taken.care of, but,
as I say again, with the resources that we had available,
a...
—s wien
tion.
I think we have done a fantastic job with our drainage progr
Q Mr. Mims, earlier in the trial I introduced, as Exhibit
264
80, a news release that you had issued on March 16, 1970.
Would you hand him a copy of that, please?
I believe his Honor inquired as to whether this
million one hundred and forty-one thousand three hundred and
seventy-four dollars that is stated on the second page to hay
been the total expenditures between October, 1965 and March
16, 1970, was all spent in an effort to do something about
the problems in Trinity Gardens? :
A This is correct.
Q And is it fair to say, too, that during that p riod
of time Trinity Gardens had produced only twenty-seven
thousand dollars in property taxes for the City?
A T had our revenue people develope these figures and
I am sure they can be substantiated.
THE COURT:
Mr. Arendall, are you suggesting that when an area
of the city doesn't produce certain revenue, they are not
entitled to certain services?
MR, ARENDALL : -
No, sir. I am not. What I wanted to do was to ask
him this next.
Mr. Mims, does not this demonstrate that the policy
of the City of Mobile, with reference to the expenditure of
public funds has been dictated by a desire to help a particu-
re
_ 365
+ Even ee
lar area that needs them as distinguished from just giving
me back fifty dollars a year in services if I pay the City
fifty dollars in taxes?
A Well, I can say emphatically that we have tried to
sneutaed. Gui services in the Trinity Gardens area, because
the area became taxable right after I was elected to office
in 1965 and I began, as public works commissioner, to provide
these services in the Trinity Gardens area. Prior to that
time, they didn't have any service at all.
THE COURT: :
I take it that your contention that the City
provides services according to needs rather than according
to revenue?
A Yes, sir. If I might add we can't always do everything
everybody wants done in any given commmity.
MR. ARENDALL:
Now, I notice on the second page here, there is a
reference to sewer installation and water installation and
a note that two hundred and fifty-eight thousand dollars of | -
federal funds had been secured and a further note that a
portion will be returned over a ten year period in assessments.
Taking, first, the item of sewer installations, I
had understood from your prior testimony that the Board of
Water and Sewer commissioners were in charge of the sanitary
=
366.
884
sewer development for the city in this area.
Would you explain how it came about that the City
itself was in the picture here?
A Well, the water and sewer board was established, to
begin with, in order that that entity might sell bonds and
provide these services for the people. Over a period of
years the board of water and sewer commissioners apparently
reached their debt limit and they could not sell any more
bonds. Then the citizens of Mobile, these in particular,
Trinity Gardens, as well as thousands of others, came to the
board cf City Commissioners, at that time, and said, look,
we want these services. We are in the city and we want thes
services. These people in Trinity Gardens came into the Cit
and began to pay taxes in ‘65 and said we want these service
and we go to the water and sewer board and say, look, you ar
suppose to provide these services and they say we can't provide
the service because we are at our limits, as far as debt
is concerned.
The City Commission turned around then and sold bond
and made these improvements and assessed part of the cost
against the property owners and this is the only way these
improvements could have been put in, at that time. I think
it was a case of a city government responding to the needs
of the people.
885
Q That would be true of the money as indicated here
for water installation, I take it?
A Yes. They were both installed at the same time.
Q ! Now, you have mentioned briefly, among your duties
as public works commissioner, is thet of paving and you have
spoken about that generally. Let me ask you a few general
questions.
Where a subdivider desires to take a rather large
piece of property and turn it into a lot sales venture, who
puts in the streets?
A The developer.
Q Does he have to do that in accordance with City
specifications as to the nature of the street and the
underground drainage and things of that sort?
A Yes, he does, and then he turns them over to the
City when he has completed the project.
Q "Once they are inspected and approved by the City, th
then become City streets, but it is the developer who puts
them in; is that correct? Ba
A This is correct. :
Q Would it be fair to say that since the basic growth
of the city has largely been to the western section of the
City that many of the streets in that area have been paved
by private individuals as distinguished by the City?
367
—+—
y
886
A Well, this is absolutely correct.
Q Then in those areas, however, where there have been
no real estate developments in recent years the City, itself,
has bees the one to do the paving; is that right?
A On all unimproved streets where there were wesigencep
the City has gone in on an assessment basis and improved the
streets and, as I said a moment ago, we have just about
taken care of every one with the exception of some in Trinity
Gardens.
Q Now, there was a lady here earlier in the case who
-- no, a gentleman, Mr. Pettaway, who was talking about
Lincoln Street.
I understood him to say that the people out there had
always been willing to pay for an asses t for street
improvements and then I introduced Exhjbit 81 on that subject.
Do you recall the Lincoln Street
A I recall Lincoln Street quite well, because I set
on a Reverand Mr. Smith's porch in 1965 and discussed the
problem with him. I discussed it a number of times after
that date with him.
It was not until about a year ago -- I don't recall
the dates, that we first learned that these people were
Prior to that time they wanted
willing to pay an assessment.
the City to put the streets in because they had problems and,
369
to the best of my recollection, they never indicated that
they wanted to pay or would be willing to pay any portion
of it. My position was that it was a hard surface paved
street at the time and we had much greater needs in other
areas and our responsibility is an awesome responsibility,
when you try to establish priorities, and, in my opinion,
the Lincoln Street project was not a high priority item,
but when the people decided that they wanted to have a part
in it and pay the assessment, then the City Commission moved
ahead with the improvement program and it is under construc-
tion right now.
THE COURT:
What is the distinction about when the City pays
for it? I assume when you say certain high priority areas
where you do paved work without assessment, what makes the
determination where you pave without assessment and where
you don't?
A We don't assess, your Honor, on major streets. Take
Airport Boulevard, for instance, that is a major street.
Normally we try to get some federal or state and county
participation in a project such as this. On all residential
streets that we improve, whether it be low cost or regular
curb and gutters and underground drainage, we do it on an
assessment basis.
_.._ 887
370
5 rs
|
||
|
THE COURT:
Are all the streets in the area -- is Lincoln Street
a residential section?
A Yes, sir. And as I said, it was not until they agreed
to the assessment program -- let me explain the assessment
program. We could go out and say we are going to rege part
lof this project to the property owners. We assess one-sixth
|
lof the cost of the project to the property owner. So, it
|
'
istill costs, out of the treasury of the City of Mobile, many
thousands of dollars on most any kind of project, because one-
sixth on each side of the street would be actually one-third.
If a project costs ninety thousand dollars, sixty
thousand comes right out of the treasury where thirty thousand
comes out on either side of the street.
Q What is your policy with Sepesitnii to the construction
of sidewalks? ‘A number of black witnesses have complained
because they don't have sidewalks.
A Well, it has been our policy to install sidewalks
'
in any area where the people petition the City Commission for
sidewalks, because we assess the cost of that improvement
gainst the property. Our policy on new subdivisions is that
hey install the sidewalks. So, if a new subdivision goes in,
efore we accept the subdivision, the developer places the
idewalks on the property.
——- eee eee eee eee ee eanee “Es
371
%
\
over the two-thirds or iseesPaechs of the people in the
community to please the one-fourth or one-third.
Our normal way of handling it is for a community,
the number of people -- ever how many to request the sidewalks
and then we would try to initiate the program and have the
hearing and move on with it.
MR. ARENDALL:
That probably is clear, but you would not, for
A No resurfacing programs are not done on an assessment
basis. That is @ meintenance problem.
We spend about two hundred and fifty to three hundred
thousand dollars a year on resurfacing. Right now we have
many hundreds of miles of streets that need to be resurfaced
and in the not too distant future I will be coming to the
Commissioners on my knees with hat in hand, so to speak, to
nee our streets in good repair.
That comes right out of the general fund of the City
and as a maintenance expenditure. We don't assess for
resurfacing.
Q Do you believe, Mr. Mims, that under eiud administra-
tion that the black commmities have been treated fairly with
reference to drainage, paving, sidewalks and -- well, those
example, assess for repaving Government Street, would you?
matters?
893
.. Sak. ee
A I most certainly do. I don't think I have ever -- in
fact, I will be emphatic and say I have never denied any
citizen a service that he expects with his tax money because of
a certain color or social standing.
Q Now, there has been some testimony here about weeds
and underbrush on large tracts, specifically about some
property belonging to Mr. Meaher and located in the Plateau
area.
| What is the policy of the City with reference to large
tracts?
A We have a state law and I am not familiar with the
!
number’ and what not, but I know it is a state law that deals
with noxious weeds, This law allows us to post a lot and cut
it if the property owner does not cut it and assess it against
lite property. Our policy on large tracts of land, if we get
a complaint from Mrs. Jones, who lives next door to this
large tract of land, our policy is to go out and post a
fifty foot strip around this ten acre tract or whatever it
might be, and give the property owner who lives next door to
this tract at least a clearing between them and the underbrush
and the wooded area, so to speak.
| Now, normally this is sufficient and most people are
|
lappreciative of the fact that they can get this strip cut next
to their property.
901
|
|
_ 373.
A No, but on occasion Dr. Tunstill has been present
with these other people to give me advisement.
THE COURT:
If I understand you correctly, you haven't formalized
your campaign into committees?
A Well, not officially. We had people doing a lot of
things in every campaign I have ever been in. When I ran for
the United States Senate, Dr. Tunstill was a part of it and
he was right there, but in these City races we welcome help
from anyone of any color or any standing.
THE COURT:
Go ahead.
asR. BLACKSHER:
I didn't really understand your answer to the Judge's
question, but I will move on to the next one.
\ Did you regularly, in all of your campaigns, have a
campaign headquarters that was staffed by people during whatev
hours you kept?
A Yes, we have.
Q Tell me the names of the black people, who have
staffed your campaign headquarters?
A We did not have black people in the campaign head-
quarters. My brother is my campaign chairman and he is very
fer
particular about who seés our list of supporters and people
ir ae |
903
change the ground rules about what it is suppose to do, who
it's members are and so forth?
A No, I don't. As far as I know, the water and sewer
board, for instance, is charged with the responsibility for
providing sanitary devers, water service for the City of
Mobile and I don't have anyone who would want to change that.
THE COURT:
According to my notes only two were established by
State law, the boards, the South Alabama Regional Planning
Commission, I assume, was established by either the State or
some federal reguiation, and that is the only ones that I
have that indicate, besides the City establishing them --
well, is that true, the board of adjustment, the board of
water and sewer commissioners, and the South Alabama Regional
Planning Commission?
A Well, I think you would find the Housing Board would
be -- has to be a State act that would allow a housing
authority.
THE COURT:
Just one minute. What number is that?
MR. ARENDALL:
If I may, we have not researched this and I am really
not sure. I believe all of these boards that will relate
to licensing people are probably under Gomer apts law which
|
t SFIS PONTE y WL TEN TREE'S 902
who are helping us. He runs the campaign and I try to run
the office after I get elected.
Q Jeff Mims is your brother?
A This is correct.
Q And h 4 chaeman of the County Democratic Executive
Committee?
A This is correct.
| Q Now, about all of these boards and committees,
| Me. Mims, would the Clerk please show the witness Plaintiff's
Exhibit number 64.
| How many of these -- can you point out the boards
ae committees on this list which, I presume, is Suapremenseey.
to your knowledge, right, and contains all the boards and
pee eta that the city has any appointing power to?
A So far as I know, yes.
Q How many of them, to your knowledge, are set up under
State law as opposed to being established by city ordinance?
A I could not answer that.
Q What about the board of water and sewer commissioners?
That is established under State law, isn't it?
A It is my understanding that it is.
Q Do you have any idea of how many of these or which of
these boards and committees are subject to the control of the
City Commission to the extent that the City Commission can
| ~ 375 i
'*
904
says that the various municipalities shall do such and such
in order to issue licenses for contractors and electricians
and plumbers and so on. We have not researched and I cannot
make that statement.
THE COURT:
ALL right.
MR. BLACKSHER :
t Well, concerning the board of water and sewer
board personally?
A Yes, I have,
Q How many?
A Well, I regret to say that I think I have one
appointment in all the years. It has worked around where I
have one man on there, Mr. Dennis Moore. I have been in
office eleven years and Mr. Moore is my one and only
appointment.
There was some mix-up, if I might add, because of
some people dying and some particular person appointed them
vacancy. Many of these people I have known and certainly hav
concurred in their appointment.
The late Bishop Phillips was a very close friend of
mine and served ably on the water and sewer commission for
= dé
‘commissioners, Mr. Mims, have you made any appointments to ie
~
and they felt that they should replace that person or fill a
905
a number of years and sdme of the other people I know quite
well and have utmost confidence in them. So, I am not
complaining because I can't, you know, appoint but one person}
But Mr. Moore I appointed a number of years ago and he has
been reappointed at least once since then or maybe twice.
Q Mr. Moore is white, isn't he?
A Yes, he is.
Q I thought we established that Milton Jones is current!
a member?
A Yes. He is and Mr. Jones is black.
Q And you were saying that Bishop Phillips was also?
A He was on there prior to Mr. Jones. Bishop Phillips
was black. Vs
THE COURT:
This shows no prior black members. Can you account
for that?
A I did not prepare this. Reverand Bishop Phillips
known by everybody around Mobile, was on there for a long
time.
MR. ARENDALL:
‘
Judge, we had this prepared by Irene -- no, Mr. Menefee
prepared this. We gave some basic information to Mr. Menefee|
THE COURT: R
Counsel for Plaintiff?
ly
rary T
s
)
_ 378
MR. ARENDALL:
Yes. Mr. Menefee prepared this and I will be frank
to say that I didn't check it,
THE COURT:
Al) right. I am going to put one in parenthesis by
that, prior black members.
Do you know whether or not you gave the information
that Mr. Phillips previously served on that board?
MR. BLACKSHER :
Bishop Phillips and Mr. Menefee informs me that
Mrs. Quinn identified the persons on this list who were
black and failed to identify Bishop Phillips.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. BLACKSHER:
So there are actually two out of the twelve people
that have been on that board that have been black?
A I don't have that information before me.
Q I believe you testified, Mr. Mims, that you ue some
difficulty finding citizens to serve on these various boards.
Have you had difficulty finding people to serve on
these boards?
A On the water and sewer board?
Q : Yes, sir.
907
A : Well, as I indicated a moment ago, I have only msue
one appointment that I could point to and thet is Mr. Moore.
Q Did you have any difficulty locating someone?
a No. I did not, because I appointed Mr. Moore and I
have not had an opportunity to appoint anyone else since.
Q You have given us an example of how Mr. Gary Cooper
walked into your office one day and said that he wanted to
participate and I believe you said that you had never seen
him before and that provided you an opportunity to appoint
him to some board.
A To the audiotorium board.
Q Isn't that a general problem you have in finding
qualified black persons to serve on these boards is that
you just don't know that many black persons personally, like
you do the white people that live in your immediate
community?
A I know a lot of black people, personally. I speak
in black churches. I go to black meetings. I know a lot
of black people.
You have to have people that express interest. My
door is open to people. I have a meet the mayor day every
Wednesday and I have people coming and going, blacks and
whites and unless psople express an interest in serving their
community on a specific board or in « specific area then it ig
373
. 380:
not my policy to go out and pick people, you know, and put
them on a boerd unless I know they want to serve and unless
I know they have some interest in a particular area.
Q Are you saying that you have never appointed anyone
to a board at your own initiative or at your own invitation,
but have only responded to requests that were made in the
first instance by other people?
A I have requested certain black leaders to provide
me black lists of black people that would be willing to
serve on boards. I know a lot of black people, but to have
them say I want to serve or I will be willing to give so
many hours a month, a very few of them have done this. I am
going to be frank with you about that.
Q Who are the black leaders you requested to provide
a list?
A Various people, ministers and various leaders in the
community.
Q Name one,
A Well, the Bishop that I just mentioned awhile ago
has provided some names over the years.
Q Bishop Phillips?
A Yes.
Q Who else?
A Reverand Tunstill, and Mr. Leflore use to provide
| to a state position.
Q Mr. LeFlore?
A And others.
/Q And others? Others that you can't recall, now?
r No. I can recall. I just mentioned Dr. Carroll.
In fact, of the business, I helped to get Dr. Carroll appointed
,Q Have all of these people provided you with a list that
you requested?
7 They would give me a name now and then. I doubt very
| seriously if anybody has given me a list of names. I rely on
| black people I know to tell me if a certain person wants to
'
—3ei—
| serve or will serve or is qualified to serve. I don't think
| because a person is black or white makes him necessarily
/Q You have requested, you say, a list of names, but
whenever you have had a chance to want to approach the black
| community you have gone to one of these black leaders that
| you knew and ask them for a name, is that what you are, saying’
Well, yes.
‘
|
\A
; So, what kind of occasions would prompt you to say
well it is time for me to consider a black person for this
‘board and I will see one of my friends, who is a black leader,
| and ask him for a name.
| .. FBR.\
910
(A What kind of an occasion?
Q What time would you do that? Everytime you had an
appointment would you request the name of qualified blacks
that you would consider along with other people or just
' eertain occasions when this would come up?
A _ Well, on some of these boards, as it has already
been indicated, you have to have engineers and architects and
things like this and you get these eecoumendations from these
| waetaee boards and committees and groups. They send in these
| recommendations.
On others, like the audiotorium board, if there is an
| opening coming up and it is important to me to make the
| appointment, then I will look over the list of people that
acquaintances.
I have confidence in and I might call.
Q You have a list that you keep at your desk of people
that you have confidence in?
A I have friends that I have confidence in and I have
‘hence that I don't consult for advice and then I have a lot
of acquaintances and I am sure that every individual, whether
he is in politics or not, has close associates, friends and
So, if I were looking for a person to put on
r board this afternoon I would call somebody that knew people
out in that community, both black and white.
Q Out in which community?
ad
911
«
c ‘
~~
| board were to resign this afternoon and it was determined
A “In whatever community I was trying to find or whatever
area I was trying to find an appointment in.
Q Well, I guess that is what we are trying to get at
is to figure out how you zero in on a community when you
find out there is a need for an appointment?
A Well, if one of my appointments on the audiotorium
that this person was my appointment and -- incidentally,
I appointed the first black to that board and appointed the
first woman and the first woman black I appointed to that
board and so if that opening were to come about this
afternoon, then I would start researching within my own
mind who I could fill that vacancy with and it might be that
I would call a white person or it might be that I call a
black person and ask for a recommendation, someone that
was qualified to serve and someone in whom I had great
confidence.
I have not made it a great practice calling up these
people after they got appointed to a board and pull strings
and treat them as a puppet. That is not my policy. I
appoint people I have confidence in and on occasions some
of them have disappointed me.
Q You said that there are a number of committees where
you must select persons nominated by boards of architects or
' 384
Fae e re Te
.
= Se peearee f+ ae
engineers and what else did you mention?
A Well, some of these you have to have someone familiar
with air conditioning, for instance, and air conditioning
professional groups. I don't even remember what they are
call, but they make these recommendations. I can't help it,
because they don't have a black air conditioning engineer that
lithey recommend to us.
le Let's get something straight. You are not saying that
there are no qualified black engineers or air conditioning
eople or whatever; you are not saying that?
A I am saying that I have tried to find a black civil
engineer for eleven years and I don't have one yet on a I
h There are no black civil engineers in Mobile?
iA I have not been able to locate them.
ty Okay. Where do you look when you are looking for a
black civil engineer?
a I have been told a number of engineers, including
‘the engineering school at South Alabama. I have talked to
beige im other parts of the country who are in the public
vorks field and I have talked to the commissioner of public
orks in Atlanta, who is a black man, and who is a civil
engineer and he confesses he can't find black civil engineers
rn I have let the personnel board know that I would like to
ave a black engineer on my staff.
is go into every area of the City and deal with all of
he people and I would like to have a black representative on
y staff, but I have not been able to locate a black civil
gineer.
Does that hold true also for architects?
The only black architect I know is Mr. Jones, who is
Sf ° A
nm the water and sewer board.
Do you know of any black architects employed with the
orp of Engineers?
I think that is the problem, the federal government
takes them all.
Q Just because he was employed at the Corp of Engineers
didn't stop you from appointing him to the water and sewer
board?
2 No. You miss the point.
Q I am sorry, give it to me again.
A I am talking about as a staff person, now. I have
looked for a@ .....+++-+
THE COURT:
You mean a full time employee? ‘
A Yes, your Honor. I have looked for a black civil
ngineer to put on the staff full time with the City of Mobile
nd I have not been able to locate one.
. BLACKSHER:
T
=
ee
38S
,. J86<%
page), > Se
914
We were talking about boards and committees.
A Well, if 1 can't find one to hire, I certainly don't
know if I could find one to appoint to a board.
a Well, you find an architect that you couldn't hire
that you probably could have appoint to a board.
A He is the only black architect that I know and I am
mot trying to be smart. He is serving on our water and sewer
board and he works for the Corp of Engineers and I imagine
makes more money than he could working for us.
Q If I told you there were two other black architects
working for the Corp of Engineers alone, woutd that surprise
you?
A No. It wouldn't surprise me. I just don't know these
gentlemen.
Q This Mobile Transit Authority you said was recently
lestablished and that is not on the list, is it?
A No. I don't think so, because it is fairly new.
Q How many members are on the authority and how many of
them are black?
A Well, I have two appointments and I think the other
two commissioners have two appointments and one of mine is
white and one of them is black.
Q I am sorry, run that by me again.
|THE COURT:
915
What is the total number?
A Six, your Honor. Each commissioner has appointed
two.
[THE COURT:
How many total blacks?
A One.
|THE COURT:
That was your appointment?
A Yes.
MR. BLACKSHER:
Who was that black person you appointed, Mr. Mims?
A Marshall Robinson.
Q And yet the black citizens of Mobile are the overwhelm
percentage of the patrons of the transit system. I mean, did
that occur to the commissioners when they were appointing?
A Sir, I can only speak to myself. I put one black and
one white out of the two. I don't know what else I could
have done.
Q I think we have talked about this the last time we
Er) in the Court together. One of the facets of the
ity Commission is that you are only responsible for you and
not responsible for the others?
A I am responsible to the people of Mobile and I think
T have met those responsibilities quite well.
ing
_. 387
_ 388.
916
0 By the way, concerning the transit authority, is it
a fact that there are just aren't any bus routes that go north)
and south between the north end of town and the south end of
town, you know, through Government Street? Don't they all have
Ito go down to the foot of Royal Street and transfer there and
go all the way back out again in one direction or the other?
A Well, the City of Mobile is so laid out to the core,
that the central core is by the river and, over the years, the
aes have all been designed to come into the central core.
| Now, studies have been made by the new operators of
the system and we have a professional operator who is helping
‘the authority. They have some new route configurations
|
|
designed. As far as them going right straight down from
Prichard to Navco, I doubt very seriously if that will ever be}
In this business I have found we have more expert traffic
|
you can shake a stick at and everybody says why don't we have
i bus to run from Trinity Gardens to Navco interchange. That
ieajin mean that people are going to ride just because
uae thinks that ought to be. This is like testimony
Riven here earlier today that a traffic light ought to be
|
he their corner, but it doesn't mean it is necessarily justi-
|
fied.
Q Who was that that said everybody wanted a traffic
‘engineers and more expert civil engineers and more experts 3
kg?
917
light at their corner?
A I think it was brought out earlier in the testimony,
I think Mr. Doyle said so.
Q Mr. Doyle wanted it?
A No. He didn't say he wanted one.
2) Okay. We have this board of adjustment, number one,
‘Looks like it is -- we have one black out of a history of
sixteen total members. Do you know any reason why there were
ot any more blacks than that appointed to this particular
oard?
| Is ita — of availability of some particular
kill; or something of that sort?
I do not know the answer to that question. I do know
he board of adjustments membership on that is not an easy
role, because these people, whether black or white, come under
a awful lot of pressure when you have a hundred people in the
hambers and fifty-four something and fifty against it.
What has that got to do with my question?
Well, it has a lot to do with the question. Getting
omebody that wants to take that pressure and strain and lister
o all of that static and any member of the press can tell you
at goes on in a board of adjustment meeting.
Are you inferring that there have been black people
fovit tng to take that pressure?
1 \
1 _. 389
380"
eal 919
A No. I didn't infer black or white. A lot of people Q The air conditioning contractors?
wouldn't take that pressure. | A When those recommendations come up to us, we don't
0) You are not saying that there are not qualified black know whether they are black or white. They recommend Mr. Jones,
citizens in Mobile who were able to serve on the board of Mr. Smith or whoever.
adjustments? | Q And it is these private agencies that control on who
A No. We have one on there. serves on the board?
Q 7 Is he the only qualified person? A They make their recommendations to the city commission
A I did not say that. I have not implied that there wer | and we appoint them.
not qualified blacks. | Q You are powerless not to appoint their chadelitidasisteal
Q What about this air conditioning board? This is the is that correct?
board that screens applicants for licenses for people who want A I think these requirements are specified in the
to do air conditioning work? ordinance of the state's statute and these people are rightfully
A As I understand it, yes. : making these recommendations to us.
iQ As a matter of fact, there is a lot of air conditioning , MR. BLACKSHER: |
inechante type courses in the local trade schools, isn't there? I believe, your Honor, we could have this document
NA So far as T know. marked, but the information was turned over to us from the
l Southwest Technical State, Carver State, I think both City indicates that the air conditioning board is established
have courses, don't they? | by a city ordinance. Do you want to stipulate to that?
. I am not familiar with that. | MR. ARENDALL:
You are not saying that there are no black persons in | Whatever it shows, Jim. I have really done no
this community who are qualified to serve on that board, are " research on these things.
you? | MR. BLACKSHER:
ia No. But we have not received recommendations from : Im fact, the air conditioning board ordinance says
phece various agencies that make the recommendations. it shall be composed of five members appointed by the City
| -. 39% | ows |
920
Commission. It shall consist of the following members; one
air conditioning refrigeration mechanic, one business principal
of a registered air conditioning and heating firm; one
principal of a registered air conditioning and heating firm
that is primarily engaged in installing heating and air
conditioning systems and residences and one independent
practicing mechanical engineer, a registered engineer in the
State of Alabama, and one representative of the public.
So, it appears that no one makes recommendations to
that board. Does that come as a surprise to you?
A No, it doesn't come as a surprise. We have forty-six
different boards and commissions here and I think it would be
impossible for me to be familiar with every ordinance and
state statute. I can say emphatically that no black person
has ever come to me and said, "Mr. Mims, we would like some
‘representation on the air conditioning advisory board." I have
had no complaints in the eleven years that I have been in
office. .
Q Have white persons come to you and requested
representation on the air conditioning board?
A No.
Q Now, this Mobile Bicentennial committee. Is there any
reason why there are three out of forty-six members that are
iblack? Are there any qualifications that you felt ruled out
any black citizens in substantial numbers to that board?
A We appointed some blacks to this, ever how many to
begin with, /and then this committee kind of grew on us,
because a number of people expressed interest in the
bicentennial celebration and, as a civic club, well, they
would say you ought to put Mr. Jones on here. He is, you
know, involved with the ROTC, or whatever, and he ought to be
on the bicentennial committee and the City Commission kept
adding and adding and we wound up with whatever it says here,
forty-six members, but go back and research the records at
City Hall and you will find out that we started off with
about twelve members, three of which were black, and it grew
and grew and grew and that is the only explanation I can
!
pive: you.
Q The explanation, as I understand it, being they just
wanted black groups like white groups expressed interest in
joining the committee, is that what you are saying?
Well, yas. end also the blacks have not expressed
ps ‘much *interest, as I would like to have seen them express,
n bur Independence Day celebration. Every year out of
hirty-five thousand at Ladd Stadium I doubt seriously if we
ad seven hundred blacks and it was a free program for all the
itizens of Mobile and we have encouraged everyone to come
nd enjoy this program.
| _. 893
| | _. 394
922
Q By the way, I attended the program and you say there
were seven hundred black people in the audience?
A This would be my estimation. |
Q I guess you were counting the people sitting in the
end zone stands, mostly?
A No. I tricd to look over it as I made a circle around
the field and on the stage and I just did not see many black
people present at that bicentennial or that Independence Day
celebration.
Q In point of fact, I didn't see any black entertainers
and I thought that wus regretable.
THE COURT:
Well, you ask questions and don't get into an
argument.
MR. BLACKSHER:
Were there any black people, entertainers, besides
the black people in the marching band?
A No. 3
_11Q We have the item seven, which is the center city
sendiouenes authority which is, as my notes say, is suppose
to rejuvenate or help rejuvenate the inner city out to the
Loop; is that correct?
THE COURT:
Let's don't get into another subject here. We will
A Ite basis of funding is from the mentiber governments
that participate and contribute on a per capita basis and
they use that funding to match certain federal and/or state
or special agency programs.
Q What agencies in Mobile County participate?
A I am not sure, but I think all of the municipalities
in the County government are members.
1Q Is the South Alabama Regional Planning Commission
|
controlled by the Mobile City Commission?
A No, sir.
Q To what degree does the Mobile City Commission input
have on any influence on its operation?
A Only as voting members. We are members of the
executive committee and various aspects of the organization,
but we vote -- their voting is on a per. capita formula basis.
So, that whatever our proportion of our population is to the
three county area, that is what our voting is.
Q Now, Mr. Greenough, in your 1973 election, you were
opposed by a Mr. Bailey, you were not?
A Yes, sir. ‘
Q Were there any other candidates in that election? ©
A Yes: There were two others.
o) Who were they?
A Mr. Bridges, Earl Bridges, and Mr. Ollie Lee Taylor.
335
396
927
an > DB F&F BOB F &
Mr. Ollie Lee Taylor was black?
Yes, sir.
How did the first election come out?
Mr. Bailey and I were in the runoff.
Who was ahead?
, I think Mr. Bailey was.
Did you make any efforts to get black support in the
original election?
A
I did from the outset of my campaign and all the way
through the runoff.
Q
Ie it fair to say then that you were not concerned
about being tagged with the black vote?
A
Q
I was looking for every vote I could get.
Bailey actually got some forty-eight point one
percent of the vote in the original election, did he not?
A
_
A
Q
~
Yes, sir.
And you were the decided underdog at that stage?
I think veyed had that opinion, yes.
Did you go back to the black community and seek their
active support in the runoff?
A
Q
A
Q
Yes, sir. I did.
Were you successful?
I think the statistics would reveal that, yes.
Do you believe that the black vote or the vote of bla
ds
|
ces
928
A That is awfully hard to answer. I presume, if you
hold all other votes in isolation, the answer would be yes,
but I think this is a rather static way to look at it. I
| chink there is much more dynamics involved in the election
|
Process, but actually I would have to Say that generally
| probably, yes.
|
ih In any event, you did, in the runoff, secure a
| substantially larger percentage of votes in the black areas
than you did in the initial race, did you not?
A To my recollection, yes.
1Q Did you have any assistance from leaders of the black
community in connection with that campaign?
A Fortunately, yes.
Well, I should say the younger element that has
peetennee been described as the young turks, tended to be
‘in support of my candidacy.
Q Could you identify some of these?
A Well, there are some well known names and there are
many others not well known, ptobably, but one who is now a
member of the Alabama House, Gary Cooper, was a very strong
public supporter of mine. Milton Joiner, a young man with
|
whom I had gone to the University of South Alabama, and many
others.
in the black areas constituted the swing vote in that election}
398
and I think Mr. Mims has discuss presentation or
lack of it of the City of Mo ' ye supervisory
commission. I have neglected\or ad neglect to ask him, but
is there currently pending some effort to get that changed
by legislation?
A Yes, sir. Representative Gary Cooper has introduced
a bill which would accomplish several things. I am not
intimately familiar with it, except the essence of it is
to allow for a broadened base of representation on the board,
itself, as well as the board selection procedures and, thus,
I guess the supervisory counittes.
I did publicly and I think my two fellow commissioners
both herald this as a positive step in the right direction,
although I don't think any one of the three of us saw this
as the ultimate cure and, again, I say I think representative
Cooper realizes these sorts of things must be taken one step
at a time.
Q Mr. Seales testified about the absence of a park in
the Texas Street urban renewal area and that is under your
jurisdiction.
Can you tell us briefly about that?
| A Yes, sir. With the proper difference to our present
company, the delay in that whole program is traceable to the
I think that I would have to say, to my recollection, |
3399
MORNING _ SESSION
July 20, 1976 0 o'clock
0
M,
9;
A.
| THE COURT:
|
All right. Is Mr. Mims back?
MR. ARENDALL:
Yes, sir.
LAMBERT C. MIMS
the witness, resumed the stand and testified further
as follows:
THE COURT:
| All right. Gentlemen, you may continue with the
(cross of Commissioner Mims. ; |
CONTINUED CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. BLACKSHER:
0
) Mr. Mims, I direct your attention to Plaintiff's
Exhibit 64, again.
Do you have it in front of you?
A Yes. :
Q And in particular, to committee number 7, center
city development authority, and I understand that is some sort
of authority that is designed to help rejuvenate the inner
city out to the Loop.
943
400.
942 a
Would you be more explicit about what that authority Q They are appointed by the City Commission; is that
does? correct?
A Well, this is a new authority that has been created THe COURT: |
in recent months and the idea is to preserve what would be If I recall correctly, your testimony yesterday was |
called the older section of Mobile to make sure that it doesn|t ‘tive was the number including yourselves on that?
deteriorate and that it is restored and refurbished and |A I believe that's right, your Honor.
rejuventated, so to speak. ‘THE COURT:
Q You mean the older residential section or the older | Are there any other commissioners on that?
business section? | ‘A If I am not mistaken the commissioner serving as
A Both. | mayor is on there.
Q ‘The eity has only one appointment to that committee Your Honor, I am not sure if the other two commission 3
or to that authority? . are on there or not. t
A No. This is in error as we brought out earlier. THE COURT:
There are several persons on this authority, including the All right.
City Commissioners and if I am not mistaken the mayor, whoever MR. ARENDALL:
serves as mayor at the time, is the chairman of this If your Honor please, I have here a list of the nenber
authgrity and it includes people who are connected with the of that committee. Would you like that?
downtown Mobile Unlimited program, as well as other business- THE COURT:
men and property owners in the area. Yes.
Q Businessmen and property owners. Are there any MR. ARENDALL:
blacks on that authority and, if so, why not? This is dated March 25th -- no. The ordinance was’
A There are no blacks. dated March 25th, 1975. I am not sure as to the precise
Q | I asked why not? date of these, but members are all three commissioners, Mr.
A I could not answer that. | James Van Antwerp, Jr., vice chairman of the committee;
Mr. Ken L. Lott, who is an officer of the Merchants Bank;
Mr. Don Henry, and I don't know what he ie, -Mr. H. J.
Goubil, who is with Title Insurance Compeny.
THE COURT:
How do you spell that last name?
MR, ARENDALL:
G-o-u-b-i-1.
THE COURT:
| Well, that gives seven, then, instead of five; three
commissioners and four businessmen.
MR, ARENDALL::
Yes. I understand, Judge, from Mr. Greenough, he
had something to do with the appointment of this and he can
testify about ‘it perhaps and knows more about it than
Mr. Mims does.
‘|| THE COURT:
‘ All right.
MR. BLACKSHER:
| Mr. Mims, you are not suggesting, are you, that there
are no black businessmen or property owners who are not
interested in downtown Mobile?
A Absolutely not. ”
Q By the way, is there a similar authority or committee
that has, as its purpose, the rejuvenation of the black
business districts of Mobile?
A This particular authority is interested in the entire
area from the water front: to Government Street Loop, without
exception to race or color.
Q Yes, str. I am speaking about the area from Broad
Street out Davis Avenue, north of the Prichard City limits,
which is where the black business district is, traditionally.
A There is no authority set up with the responsibility
for that specific purpose, no.
Q Can you direct your attention to number nine, board
of electrical examiners which there have been no blacks out
of a total of seven members, over the years, and I believe
you said that various contractors, the IBEW, Alabama Power
Company nominate people for this board?
A It is my understanding that people who are associated
with the electrical profession, for lack of a better word, ar
the ones who are appointed to this electrical examining
board.
Q Once again, I want to make sure that the record is
clear that the City is not bound by ordinance or otherwise
to accept the recommendation of these private agencies,
is it?
A I would not think so. However, we abide by the
recommendations of these various groups.
|
403
464
2 —_| 946
Q Whoever they recommend, you as a formality, go ahead |
and approve?
A Normally that is the procedure.
Q You are not suggesting either, are you, that there
are no black qualified electricians in the City of Mobile?
A No, sir. We have a very fine electrician working
for the City. In fact, he is head of the electrical
inspection department.
Q Item ten, citizens advisory group for the mass transit
technical study, which shows that three of the eight members
are black.
Isn't it true, Mr. Mims, that the federal government,
in an attempt to meet the Title six requirements, expressly
required the City to appoint the cheese blacks to that
committee?
A I do not have knolwedge of that requirement.
MR. BLACKSHER:
Would you mark this, Mr. O'Connor.
(Plaintiff's Exhibit 103 received and
marked, for identification.)
MR. BLACKSHER:
This 103 will be two documents. Actually, one is
the list showing the members of this committee, citizens
advisory group for mase transit technical study, and attached
eight members other than the three blacks is a minority
to it is a letter to Mayor Greenough from the South Alabama
Regional Planning Commission dated January 20, 1975.
THE COURT:
What is the number of that, please?
MR. BLACKSHER:
103. Look at the list that I referred to at the
bottom of the first page and you will see where the South
Alabama Regional Planning Commission, pursuant to Title 6
of the Civil Rights Act, is recommending that people be
appointed. I believe there are two non-minority female,
two minority female and the same for males, right?
A ‘This is correct.
Q In point of fact there appear to be only three blacks
as one of the other eight committee members, a minority perso
other than a black to act for the four that the Federal
government asked be appointed?
A Are you asking if they are a minority?
Q Yes, sir. I am asking if one of the remainding
person? .
A I imagine you could call Mr. Briskman a minority.
He is a jew. Mr. Zoghby is a Syrian.
Q One of those would classify'as a minority, in your
opinion?
: 403°"
948
A I would think so.
Q Let's talk a little bit about the item eleven, the
citizens advisory committee on the Donald Street freeway in
which eleven of fifteen members are or were black.
Do I understand you to say it is defunct, now?
A I think perhaps it has already served its purpose
to ety establish this corridor through this area of the
city. witiels
Q Why were there so many blacks on this particular
committee, Mr. Mims?
A If my memory serves me correctly, one of the require-
ments by the féderal highway administration and others was
that there be people from the area that is being affected
and, of course, this road was going out Congress and Donald
Streets through Toulminville and my answer would be it went
through this area where many of these people lived.
Q .
A I would say so, yes.
It is a predominantly black residential area?
THE COURT:
What number was that?
A Number leven.
THE COURT:
Okay.
MR. BLACKSHER:
How did you locate the black people that served
on that committee, Mr. Mims? How did the commissioners
e
locate them?
A If I recall the particular meeting, we sat down and
looked at the area that was being affected and tried to get
| some people who were interested or would be interested in
| i |
where the road went.
0 Yes, sir. I understand that. My question is, how
did you get the people? .
A Well, sir, I look at a list of people and try to
recall who lives in what ward and what area of town and make
my appointments.
1 Q Did you have any difficulty in getting people to cory
on this committee?
A According to Mr. Joiner, who was our liasion......... .
Q Milton Joiner?
A Earl Joiner, public works engineer, served as liasion
for the City Commission. According to Mr. Joiner sometimes
they had very high attendance of people who attended the
meetings. ;
Q No, sir. I asked about getting people tc serve on the
committee?
A I thought we were talking about serving. Persons don'
|
|
|
come to the meeting they are not serving.
408*
250
THE COURT:
The thrust of his question is in finding people to
make the appointments?
A Your Honor, I don't recall that specific point.
MR. BLACKSHER:
All right, sir. I next direct your attention to
number. twelve. I think I have not moved the introduction
of Exhibit 103 and I so move.
THE COURT:
Let it in.
(Plaintiff's Exhibit number 103 received
and marked, in evidence)
MR; BLACKSHER:
Item number twelve, the codes advisory committee wher¢
there have been no blacks.
Why is that, Mr. Mims?
&es'y I could not answer that.
Q Architects, structural engineer, mechanical engineer,
electrical engineer, member of the building trades, a
general contractor, home builders, real estate -- this is a
body that passes on what building codes will be adopted and
enforced by the City of Mobile; is that correct?
A This is correct.
THE COURT:
Does that include residences?
A. All buildings,. sir.
| THE COURT:
All right.
MR. BLACKSHER:
In point of fact, Mr. Mims, not all or very few of
the people on this list, and I have that list before me,
a very few of them are actually recommended by an outside
agency; isn't that correct, or do you kmw?
oad
I do not have the list before me.
| MR. BLACKSHER:
I think we will introduce this into evidence, your
This is the list and the ordinance that creates this
| particular committee. Perhaps it will be useful to have all
| of these in the record.
| (Plaintiff's Exhibit number 104 received
and marked, in evidence.)
MR. BLACKSHER:
| I will go on to the next one, your Honor.
I move the introduction of 104. ’
THE COURT:
It is admitted. Go ahead.
MR. BLACKSHER:
Item thirteen is the commission on progress.
951
| Ai:
952
As I underetand it, that is a committee that you
personally had some responsibility in forming?
A This commission was in existence when I assumed office
in 1965. It was called a bi-racial committee. It was at my
suggestion, after the racial strife of the sixties and we
moved on to trying to make progress in other areas, that we
changed the name to commission on progress, because the
group was considering matters other than race related matters
and matters that dealt with things other than race, but I ha
had close association with this committee or this commission
over the years that I have been in office and this committee
has done a good work fer the people of Mobile.
Q There was a conscious effort to insure there were a
repetitive number of black people on this committee, I take
it? a
A Yes. It was established as a bi-racial committee
| from, the very beginning. |
| Q What was some of the other areas that this committee
| got into that caused you to change its name?
A Well, economic -- in the area of economics. In other
words, trying to obtain jobs for people and see that every
one could get a good job in Mobile. We have put forth every
effort down through the years.
This committee has also discussed problems as they
411 —
en
related to police
city government.
matters have been
in public works and other functions of
So, at their meetings, many many different
discussed, parks and playgrounds and
public work matters and police matters and geheral governmental
services, all of these things have been discussed by this
committee.
Q It sounds
a number of other
A | Well, I am sure there would be some overlapping in
a number of areas.
Q | The important thing is that it had a bi-racial
composition, as I
a sign of unity in the community on these issues?
A I think it did create unity and created much more
unity than maybe it was given credit for having created.
Q You nevertheless thought the term neusentet committee
was not an adviseable thing to have during the last part of
the sixties?
A During the late sixties it was known as a bi-racial
committee and then, at some point in time and I could not
tell you wren the name was changed, but it was, at my
recommendation, and I made a newsrelease on it and it is
all a matter of record. We ad recamianil to change the name
because it was dealing with matters other than purely race
like it was duplicating the function of
bodies that we have been talking about?
understand it, that was intended to create
412:
954
related matters.
Q Have you had any trouble finding black people to
serve on this committee, Mr. Mims?
B We, as far as I know, have been able to get people
to serve, not every one has one hundred percent-attendance.
It is spasmodic, as far as attendance is concerned, on both
the black side and the white side.
Q Okay. I next direct your attention to item fourteen,
the educational building authority.
As I understand it, this was some sort of authority
established to enable city bonds to be sold to finance
capital improvements on some educational facilities; is that
correct? :
A So far as I know. You will have to refresh my
memory with some of these authorities, if you don't mind.
-. You don't happen to know which educational egos
received the benefit of these bonds, do you?
A On this particular authority I could not tell you,
to save my soul.
Q It wasn't the Mobile County Board of school commissiqners,
the public school system, was it?
A I do not know.
Q Could it have been some private schools?
A I just said I do not know, counsel.
413
955
Q Who would know, Mr. Mims?
A Well, I assume:that Mr. Arendall has the file with
the functions of these various ‘authorities. I am sorry,
your Honor, I didn't bring all of this up here with me and
I hope the Court will understand that I can't remember all
of this.
As we indicated yesterday, we set these authorities
up and they serve as a vehicle for financing and we have
very little to do with it once the group comes to us and
asks us té6 form this committee or this authority. They go
on with the function and provide the buildings for public
MR. ARENDALL: :
, If your Renee please, we have furnished to the
plaintiffs a liet of the membership of each of these various
commissions and boards and indications of by whom they were
appointed or recommended and the copy of the ordinance under
which they serve. I see, as to this particular one -- and
I don't know this adds anything or will trigger anything
in Mr. Mims's mind, but this says it was the, application of
Messrs. C. T. Cartee and Guy W. Reynolds and so forth.
use. So, E really -- I have been too concerned with dvitnagd....
: A I remember a Dr. Thomas, a lady, if I am not
4 mistaken.
THE COURT:
444:
Suh
Does that trigger what they came to you for in the
purpose of the authority?
A They came to be able to raise funds to promote an
educational facility.
THE COURT:
Was it a private school?
MR. ARENDALL:
Was it a private school?
A _ I know Dr. Thomas is associated with a private schoo]
So help me, I do not know what the ordinance says.
MR. ARENDALL:
/ Ye doesn't identify the school location or anything.
eee the name of the private school that Dr. Thomas is
associated with, Mr. Mims?
=< It is my understanding that the school is located
on Government Street.
THE, COURT:
Do you know the name of it?
A No, sir.
MR. ARENDALL:
Whereabouts on Government Street?
A The school is located across from Constantines
Restaurant.
MR_. BLACKSHER:
4150
957
Gulf Coast Academy?
A That is correct. I spoke at their graduation
exercise not long ago and I could not remember the name.
MR. BLACKSHER:
That academy has an all white enrollment, does it
not?
A I could not testiZy to that fact. .
/ Q Did you see ar.y blacks in attendance when you spoke
there?
A I don't recall any blacks being at the graduation
exercise.
Q Okay.\ The next one is item fifteen, Mobile area (
public higher education foundation,
This has to do with the University of South Alabama,
-
doesn't it?
A I do not have the record in front of me.
| Q Mr. Cleverdon is on the committee, Mr. Herron,
Mr. Little and Mr. Crowe.
A That sounds like the University of South Alabama
program. ,
MR. ARENDALL:
And Mr. Langan.
MR. BLACKSHER:
I won
?
Right. Mr. Langan, Mr. Smith and others.
416)
ee
read this into the record.
Is there any particular reason why there were no
blacks, to your knowledge, appointed to this particular
committee?
A No. I do not know that. I think perhaps that was
>
set up before my time at City Hall.
Q Well, yes. It was set up, apparently, in June of
1962. The appointments ranged though from -- well, except
for one year in 1962, they ranged from 1970 up to 1976.
A Well, normally......
MR. ARENDALL:
May I call your attention that according to this
apparently the only appointment has come up on this board
since Mr. Mims came up on the commission was Mr. Joe it |
original appointment must have expired and he was re-appoint
on September 30, 1974, and that is the only appointment the
City Commission has had since that time.
THE COURT:
The city has one appointment to that board?
MR. BLACKSHER:
I will put this in evidence. It indicates to me the
original appointments were 10/1/70 and others in '70, '72
and one in ‘74.
MR. ARENDALL:
oo
I beg your pardon. I see they were originally
appointed in 1970. IT apdlogize to you. I misread it.
THE COURT:
Who are the other appointing authorities?
MR. BLACKSHER:
Do you know, Mr. Mims?
A I am sorry. It does say on the list.
MR. BLACKSHER:
There are some county appointments.
THE COURT: |
How many?
MR. BLACKSHER:
Five. reee
THE COURT:
County appointments?
MR. BLACKSHER:
Yes, sir. And there are some schoo]. board
appointments numbering six.
THE COURT:
That is the county school board? ,
MR. BLACKSHER:
That's all we have.
_MR. ARENDALL:
Jim, it could be that the Cleverdon was also a county
a8"
appointment. Apparently, the city has six and the school
board has six -- that is, the county has six.
THE COURT:
So there are ten members rather than six members of
that board.
MR. BLACKSHER:
More than that, your Honor.
MR. ARENDALL:
It would be at least six and six is twelve and six
more would be eighteen.
THE COURT:
Okay.
MR. ARENDALL:
Assuming that Mr. Cleverdon was appointed by somebody
and he is on it.
MR. BLACKSHER:
‘ We offer this.
(Plaintiff's Exhibit number 105 received
and marked, in evidence.)
MR. BLACKSHER:
Next I will direct your attention to number sixteen,
fine arts museum of the south at Mobile, which indicates thene
have been two blacks out of a total of forty-one members over
the years. x
A That is correct.
Q Are there no black property owners in the Fort Conde
area? | | ,
A I have no knowledge of any blacks owning land in that
area.
Q There are some black anaiibiildd of that area, aren't
there?
Do you know why there have not been any more
blacks than that on this commission?
A As we indicated previously, normally people who are
interested in arts are appointed ee this board, people who
make contributions and go out in the community and try to
raise funds that would help operate it and make capital
improvements. People who express a great deal of interest
in the arts have been appointed and recommendations have ony
from the various groups. }
Q There are a substantial number of blacks in this
community who ‘ain intexssted in the arts, aren't there?
A I am sure there must be.
Q Fort Conde plaza development authority, number
seventeen. There have been no blacks on that committee.
I believe asia iuhaaitiieetia was that it consisted of
three City Commissioners and property owners fromthat area;
is that correct?
473 {
- ,* ™ j
“— - /
ae
420
— — ————
A Absolutely not. No residents at all in that area,
at this point.
THE COURT:
He means the immediate adjoining area.
A Well, your Honor, this authority has to do with
the property located within the interchange,
THE COURT:
Well, limit ours to that area.
A Well, that was what I was talking about. No, sir.
Not that I know of.
MR. BLACKSHER:
Eighteen is the Mobile Historical Development
Commission of which there have been a total of one hundred
and thirteen members over the years. None of whom are black.
Can you explain that, Mr. Mims?
A Only that we indicated yesterday that we received
recgmmendations from the various agencies that concerned
themselves with historic preservation and development and
we accept these recommendations as they come to us.
they will give us, number one and number two, and we normally
select the number one recommendation on the lisc.
Q Well, this would certainly indicate that there aren't
any blacks who are interested in the historical development
of Mobile. You don't think that is true, do you?
Normally
“3 963
|
ei zm SL
eee
a, ak ee eee Te es ee ome
mo
All I can do is speak from experience. I haven't
eard from too many who were interested in it.
I am reading now, Mr. Mims, from Exhibit 76, Plaintiff!s
xhibit 76, which is this neighborhoods of Mobile published
y the South Alabama Regional -- City Planning Commission,
xcuse me, page three. Says the essential -- the topic of
his paragraph, "People, values and a swelling tone".
"The essential population characteristics and broadly
asic values of today existed at this latter time. Migrants
rom the eastern seaboard, scotch, irish, and english, were
ettling as farmers in northern Alabama and were the first to
se the Tombigbee and Alabama rivers for transportation. Many
d settled in Mobile; their uneducated, rough and tumble ways
ere in strong contrast to the educated, conservative and
rthodox habits of the former New England traders and AT
iving here. Yet, eventually there was merger of divergence.
he few remaining french and spanish families contributed
atin values to those of the two major groups. Although
pproximately one-third of the population at this time was
ndian or negro, these two minorities had little direct effect
n the value structure found in the city."
So, according to this report of Mobile Planning
ommission, negroes have had little to do with the historic
evelopment?
|
P |
| |
' —_—_-_-— . + 985-
fourteen. However, I could say that all fourteen have not
ittle to do with it.
They have had lit been active. The black member has been activer If I am not
with the statement?
Would you agree mistaken it is Mr. Leroy Davis, a very fine businessman.
— Q And he was appointed by you, in fact?
t ie little effect.
. BLACKSHER: ) I think I will introduce this list of members into
ight, your Honor.
I think you are right, evidence. For the record it shows who appointed them and when.
COURT: (Plaintiff's Exhibit number 106 received
t said.
I just listened to what you and marked, in evidence)
. BLACKSHER: ben: ‘BLACKSHER: 7
It says they have had little. effect on the value
Mr: Doyle and Mr. Greenough have not appointed any
tructure found in the city. Would you agree with that? black members to that commission.
Well, that is « document of the — en ee , Do you suppose that might have anything to do with why
upport the document. 3 q you saw a smaller turn out than you expected of black people
Okay. I next direct your attention to number nineteen, Be ces “bs
he Independence Day celebration committee. ewe ae anything té do with it.
Is that the committee that plans the fair at Ladd I don't think the ‘membership on the committee has a thing
tad ium on the 4th of July? in the world to do with the number of people who turned out.
This is correct. | Q Could we talk about the event that we all witnessed here
I see it has only one black person out of fourteen recently just a second? Now, it started out with a marching
rs. Can you explain that? band and then there were some floats that came out. Among thoge
Well, I can't explain the ratio, one to fourteen, but | floats were there any blacks riding those floats?
f these are not active.
ainsi raiet nit A I, think there was a black lady on one of the floats
. your answer.
I didn't understand who gave the pledge to the flag.
—
423
' I said I could not explain the ratio of one to —_— | 424° at MOR en
——y
=a
'| stations encouraging people to come to the Independence Day
Q You are absolutely correcty She was the only black
person on the platform, as I recall.
A Well, that might be true, but I call your attention to
the previous years when we had black ministers on the platform
and on a number of occasions have had black people on the
platform. This year, maybe one was on the platform, but that
has not been the case every year. I know the first year we
had it we had the bishop, I think it was a black man from
New Orleans, came here and gave the invocation and other
blacks have been on it, too. I think Bishop Smith has been
on it and other blacks in years passed. I am sure the
committee, when they were ........
Q well, what happened this year? There vasa
conspicuous absence of blacks on that field this year and
I wondered what happened.
A Well, I am not a member of that planning committee.
Mr. Isocket is chairman of that committee and they have worked
extremely hard to put on a good show for all of the people
of Mobile every year and we run ads in the Beacon and run
ads in the Mobile Press Register and we encourage people
and I have been on the radio time and time again on all
celebration. We can't make people come to the stadium to
celebrate the birthday of our nation. I can't answer. shat
Ss
it te inte el
“~ :
question.
Q The two principle entertainers were Mr. Jerry Clower,
style of humour was not ethnicly aligned with the black
culture, would you?
.
A I didn't look at it that way. Mr. Clower is a fine
christian man and I know he doesn't have any animosity or
ill feelings toward any race or nationality. I think that to
be a fact.
Q In point of fact, he made one joke of how he was
tired of shiftless people who weren't working or something
to that effect.
A Well, of course, if the shoe fits you have to wear it.
Q And the second major entertainer was the Nashville
Brass. |
A A very fine group of entertainers, yes.
Q Who played a number of excellent songs, including
one rousing rendition of Dixie, as I recall.
A Well, that is correct and I was amazed that a black
major standing right in front of me stood up.
Q Along with everybody else, at that point?
A Well, if you were watching me, I was reluctant to
stand, but I am an American and I believe in our country and,
to be frank with you, I am a little reluctant to stand to
a very fine comedian. I think you would have to admit that hip
_ aS
_ 426
anything other than to Amazing Grace and the Star
Spangled Banner.
Q I appreciate that, Mr. Mims. Let's move on to the
next one. The industrial development board is number twenty
and there have been no blacks out of a total of fifteen
members. The industrial development board, the ordinance
does not tell us what use is going to be made of the monies,
the capital monies, that will be raised through these municipal
bonds. I take it that is what it was for, wasn't it?
A The industrial development board is a vehicle whereby
industries can obtain funds to expand or develop new industri
that create jobs and, over the years, many hundreds and even
thousands of jobs have been created because of this board's
involvement and because it can be used to obtain the funds
for industrial development and, of course, we have blacks and
whites in all segments of the community working at these
industries that have been provided because of this industrial
development board.
Q According to the list here, every one of the members
has been recommended by the Mobile Chamber of Commerce?
A I am sure this is correct.
0 And to get back to my last question, which really
wasn't answered. Can you tell me some of the plants, factories
or businesses that have benefited from these bonds?
_ 427
A Well, a number of them. I think both of the paper
mills have benefited from these bonds, the new paint company
going in down at the Theodore Industrial Complex. I don't
have the list, but a number of firms have benefited and the
community has benefited.
Q Smith's Bakery?
iA It is my understanding that Smith's Bakery used
industrial development bonds, yes.
Q And Coca-Cola Company, Delchamps?
A Well, there are a number of them and all of them mean
an awfully lot to this community. They have big payrolls.
MR. BLACKSHER:
We offer this.
(Plaintiff's Exhibit number 107 received
and marked, in evidence)
MR. BLACKSHER:
Wouldn't you think there were a number of black
businessmen that would be interested in serving on that parti-
cular board? |
A I do not know. ’
Q Do you have any boards or committees for the City of
Mobile that provide development bonds for minority enterprises
A Well, anyone has an opportunity to come before this
board and seek funds or seek a bond program that would generat
aze:
970
funds without regard to race. So, I would suggest that
wpestite: groups or anyone else who would be interested would
come before this board.
Q Do at know whether or not any minority groups have,
in fact, used it?
A I do not know.
Q I am going to skip over a number of these and try to
make these move along a little faster, Mr. Mims, unless there
is souabhide you would like to say about any of them.
You said, at this point in your direct testimony, that
the City Commission has little to do with these boards after
the members are appointed; is that correct?
{iA These boards that are set up on these authorities that
are set up for strictly financing, we have very little to do
with it. Now, I am not saying that we have very little to
fo with all of these boards, because you skipped over one of
he mést important ones.
The Housing Board?
That's right. A very important board and we do make
| ppointments to this board and we do have close relationships
with this board.
W finance a lot of projects. The city of Mobile has
expended millions upon millions of dollars of urban renewal
funds that have cleaned out slums and provided better housing
429 ;
et ecm
for our people.
0 You will admit that the majority of the clientale
for the public housing board are black?
A This is correct.
Q And concerning the public housing projects that have
been built by the City of Mobile it is also a fact that they
have also been located in black neighborhoods; isn't that
correct?
A Well, they are located in predominantly the older
sections of the city, because this is ........ |
THE COURT:
Well, are they predominantly black?
A Your Honor........
THE COURT:
IT am speaking of where the work was taking place.
A Well, yes. I would say so.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. BLACKSHER:
Back to my point about the involvement, of the City
Commissioners once these boards are appointed.
Was it my understanding that they pretty much
functioned on their own once they are set up?
A Well, this is true and, as I testified earlier, I
450° hy
eS .
972
/
_| appoint people to these committees and boards that I have
| confidence in and I don't pull strings. They are not
puppets on the string for Lanbert Mims when I appoint then.
We depend upon these people to run these operations.
Now, that doesn't mean we don't have close communication or
close association with these people. We have one of our
own City Commissioners serving on the water and sewer board.
Well, certainly we discussed water and sewer board
problems and we have these people serving on the housing
board and we discuss problems as they relate to the
community.
THE COURT:
Now, it seems most of these boards are -- many of
them rather are establishec for a specific purpose and, after
that purpose is accomplished, some of them become dormant.
I am not sure about the Mobile Housing Board. Are these
members salaried members who function day to day or is this
an advisory board that just advises the Mobile Housing
Board?
A Your Honor, the Mobile Housing Board is more than an
advisory board, It is an operating board.
| THE COURT:
First, is it a full time job?
A No. These businessmen are appointed.
_ 43h
973
THE COURT:
These are advisory people to whom?
A No, sir. These men serve as a board and they give
instructions to the director, the executive director, who is
a full time man and he has a staff.
THE COURT:
That is what I wanted to know. —
A But this is a very responsible group of people and
they handle millions of not only local, but federal monies.
THE COURT:
About how often does the board meet?
A I think it meets twice monthly, your Honor, and
then on call as needed.
THE COURT:
Some function -- I realize the comparison is not
exact, but something like a board of directors of a business
institution?
A This is correct. If I might add, we have more
contact with the executive director than we do actually with
the members of the board, because the members of the board
set the policies and the executive director then has to carry
them out and he communicates quite frequently with all three
commissioners and with the board of commissioners.
MR. BLACKSHER:
~~ 4aa.:
That is Mr. Jimmy Alexander?
A ‘That is correct.
Q Who, for the record, is white?
A White color or named white?
Q Race.
A Well, Mr. Gray is a black man on the board. The —
man......
THE COURT:
Well, all right. We are going through them and I
would like to know something of their -- not a lot, but is
he a business man or social worker or government employec,
or what?
A All right. Let me take them one at a time, your
Honor. Mr. Gray is a black man on the board and he is with
the Mobile County Public School system and, if I am not
mistaken, he is an assistant principal at Shaw High School.
THE COURT:
All right.
A Mr. Norman Cox is the president of the Patterson
Company.
THE COURT;
Is that a lumber company?
A No, sir. Wholesale supplies of some kind, flooring
and things such ae this.
9768
THE COURT:
All right.
A And then Mr. David Frielander who is president of
bile Rug and Shade Company.
THE COURT:
All right.
A Then there is Mr. Howard Adair who is the supervisor
THE COURT:
All right.
A And then there is a Mr. Gary Ellis who is the owner
of a drugstore and he is a pharmacist.
THE COURT: '
All right.
MR. BLACKSHER:
Your Honor, I am introducing, as 108, the list that
Mr. Mims has just gone through.
on COURT :
All right.
(Plaintiff's Exhibit 108 was received
and marked, in evidence)
MR. BLACKSHER: ,
By the way, Mr. Mims, Mobile Rug and Shade is owned
by either you or your brother; is that correct?
or superintendent with the South Central Bell Telephone Company.
~- 433: a
Ad4
976
977
A Absolutely not. I wish it were.
Q You are not connected with it?
A Absolutely not. Mr. Friedlander is the owner of
Mobile Rug and Shade Company.
Q All right. In any event, what is your explanation
for why there aren't more blacks on this board that affects
the lives of so many black citizens of this community?
A I think the black community is repeenented and it has
been represented by Mr. LeFlore, who served on this board and
served ably, and as far as I am concerned, the blacks have
representation with the white members.
Q So you think they are adquately represented now?
A Yes, because I know that these men that I have
appointed to this board are just as interested in the blacks
as they are the whites.
Q Now, sir, we will go to item thirty, which is the
Mobile Library board which has had two black members out of
a total of twenty over the years.
You wouldn't suggest, would you, that black citizens
of Mobile are not interested in the public library?
A Not at all.
Q Can you explain why there have been so few blacks
appointed to this board?
A Not really, This board is more or less an advisory
board to the commission and in charge of the libraries and
the board of commissioners. The personnel who works for the
library board is under civil service and I could not tell you
why there is a two to fourteen ratio.
this particular phase of our community activity and people
who are willing to devote time to it.* So, perhaps not too
many blacks have shown an interest in it or have come forth
and said we would like to have a part in the operation of the
library system.
Q Now, I take it that you haven't gone out and actively
sought black participation on this board then?
A No. I haven't personally, no.
Q Similarly the next one, item thirty-one, the greater
Mobile Mental Health Retardation Board indicates that there
are no black members.
You would not suggest, would you, that blacks aren't
nterested in mental health and retardation in Mobile?
No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't suggest that at all.
poy blacks appointed to this board?
A As I indicated yesterday, if I am not mistaken, thic
is a fairly new board and these members -- and I do not have
the list before me, but these people are vitally interested
We, again, try to appoint people who are interested in
Q Do you have any explanation for why there haven't been
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3278.
and have expressed great concern for mantal health and ~
retarded children and retarded people. There are some people
who are more interested than others and I have found people
who have members or people of their family affected in these
areas are more apt to press for these needs than others.
Q Well, once again, I will ask you if there have not
been seme black citizens of this community who have expressed
interest in the mental health problems of the community?
A I can't recall any blacks being in any meetings with
reference to mental health problems. Now, there may have
been. I am not saying there haven't been, but to the best of
who have come to City Hall with reference to the mental
health program, interested citizens, and to the best of my
recollection there have been “ blacks ameng those who come
seeking funds or support for mental health.
(aa
Hospital Human Rights Committee that was appointed by the
Are you familiar with, Mr. Mims, with the Searcy
Federal Court in Montgomery?
A Just what I have read in the media is all I know about
it.
Q You are aware tha~ there are black members on that
committee, aren't you?
A I am not aware of the make-up of that committee.
my recollection, as citizens and we have had a number of groups
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437
Q I think you said, concerning number thirty-three, the
Mobile Planning Commission, that it also is one of the most
important commissions of city government; is that correct?
A I would say so, because it has to do with planning
and zoning.
Q Do you have any explanation for why there have been
no more than two of fifteen blacks on that planning commission?
A No. I know the gentleman who is on there now and the
one who was on there prior to this gentleman being on, but
I could not tell you why the ratio is one to seven.
Again, this is one of those things where you really
are on the hot seat and you have to spend long hours listening
to both sides with their arguments and presentations, and it
is not easy to get people who will take this pressure, free
of charge, to be quite frank with you.
Q Are you suggesting that the presence of one member,
one black member on this commission, is an adequate representa-
tion cf black citizens of this community? r
A Well, I would think all seven of these members
represent the community adequately, regardless of a person's
color, when he comes before the commission for a zoning matter.
I think they are represented adequately.
Q Well, let's talk about zoning for a moment.
Can't you agree with me that the white members of the
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committee are going to be less familiar with the black resider
and business areas of a city?
A No. I cannot agree with that because simply the
chairman of this commission, at this time, every week before
these matters come before the commission gets with the member
of the planning staff at his own expense and on his own time
and he visits every one of these sites that is coming before
that planning commission the next day.or the next week. He
goes out into the communitites on hiw own at his own expense
and familiarizes himself with these matters that are coming
before that commission.
Q Mr. Mims, I said my point was that one can go out
and inspect the various sites that are the subject of the
attention of the planning commission, but unless one lives
in the area one is not going to know what the sentiments of
the residents or the people of the community are about how
that land is being used; would you agree with that?
A No. I would not agree with that.
Q Well, you have appointed Mr. John L. Blacksher to that
commission, have you not, the planning commission? '
rs Yes.
Q And is that the same Mr. John L. Blacksher about whom
we heard complaints earlier that owned a lumber company in
the Maysville area that was causing a nuisance?
itial
—
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A ‘Yes.
Q Do you think Mr. Blacksher is familiar with the
feelings and sentiments in that area about the way it is
zoned and planned?
A I think Mr. Blacksher is, because Mr. Blacksher has
met with the citizens of that area when they had a complaint
about his company. He went and met with them at one of the
local churches right next to his place of business and, as
)
far as I know, Mr. Blacksher, with the exception of the lady
who testified here the other day, has good raport with his
neighborhood.
Q Does Mr. Blacksher live in that same neighborhood?
A No. Mr. Blacksher doesn't live there.
Q His address here is Tuthill Lane. Is that in
Springhill, the western end of town?
A Yes.
Q Item thirty-four is the policeman, fire fighters
pension and relief fund board and has had seven members over
the years -- excuse me, has had ten members over the years,
seven at present, none of whom has been black.
Now, I agree that there are relatively few, but there
are some black policemen and fire fighters; is that correct?
A I think the record will ‘peeve that we have black
policemen and fire fighters; yes, sir.
—"
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Q Is there any reason why none has been appointed to
this particular pension and relief fund board?
A Well, I think it was brought out yesterday that most
of these members of this particular board are people who are
familiar with banking and people who are familiar about
financial matters and the whole idea is to try to get as much
sidiiaiiiit as you can from the money that you have available in
the fund so that it will be able to pay the pensions of both
black and white people when they retire.
Q My notes indicate, on direct, that you said or
Mr. Arendall said that three bankers, one business man, one
REALE: businessman, the fire chief and the police chief?
A I think that is correct.
Q You are not suggesting that there aren't any black
business men or bankers?
A Well, I have appointed a black banker or a savings
and loans man, a Mr. Davis, to various committees and have
used him as an advisor on a number of occasions. I have a
high respect for Mr, Davis who is a savings and loan man, but
Mr, Davis happens not to be on this particular board.
Q You say Mr. Davis is the only black banker or business
man that you know?
A I didn't say that.
Q There are plenty of others?
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A I don't know that many black bankers, no, but I know
a let of black businessmen, certainly.
Q You are not suggesting or you wouldn't suggest, would
you, that blacks aren't interested in where trees are cut in
Mobile?
A Well, let me say this, I don't know of any blacks
who have expressed a great deal of opinion about trees. I
don't know of any who have expressed a desire to serve on the
tree commission.
As far as I am concerned, people have to have a desir
to serve. The only reason I am sitting here today as mayor o
Mobile and public works commissioner is because I had a sinc
desire to serve the people. If I hadn't have had that desire
I wouldn't have offered myself to run and I wouldn't have
run three times. So, people have to have a desire regardless
of their color.
Q Are you inferring that black people in this community
just haven't had the desire, get up and go that you have
demonstrated?
A I am saying that I do not believe that the black
people have expressed the interest in the community that they
should have. I will say that emphatically.
Q Item thirty-six is your neighborhood improvement
council. It goes around various neighberhoods holding snctiagh:
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aoe
encouraging paint up, fix up, clean up.
THE COURT:
Wh.t number ig that? Mine is stapled together here.
A Thirty-six, your Honor.
THE COURT:
All right.
MR. BLACKSHER:
For example, problems with street lights, chairman of
the committee, when he hears a complaint, will write you a
lmemo personally that you can take action on. There have only
been six of forty-nine blacks on that council.
Surely black citizens in this community, I think from
the testimony, are interested in their neighborhoods. Do you
have any explanation for why there are no more blacks than that
represented?
A I could not answer that specifically, but it would be
interesting to know if some of these blacks who have testified
in this Court have been to these neighborhood improvement
council meetings and have expressed themselves there. They
certainly haven't expressed themselves to me as public works
commissioner, In fact, I have met people here in this Court
that I have never seen before.
Ih Well, let's see, what was this other group, community
Bervice meetings that you mentioned along this point, in your
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direct testimony, what is the relationship to the neighborhood
improvement council?
A Well, the commmity service meetings that I initiated
a number of years ago were primarily for ........
Q No. What is its relationship to the neighborhood
improvement council?
A There is no relationship with the exception we are
all trying to meet the needs of the community.
Q So you don't go into the neighborhood meetings through
the neighborhood improvement council, bvt you have gone in
through these community service meetings?
A This is correct. I have attended neighborhood
improvement council meetings in the past, but I don't make it
a practice to attend every neighborhood improvement council
meeting.
through these commmity service meetings?
A Yes.
Q And it is the only way you know of of finding out the
needs of the communities? ;
A Well, let me say this, many of the needs have been «
brought to the City government's attention, because we have
gone into the communities and many of the needs have been met
Q You say you have tried to go into all of the commnttie
because they were called to our attention at a community service
meeting in a given neighborhood and so, I say without any
hesitation, that the community service meetings have been
very beneficial to the people of Mobile and they have allowed
the establishment of a relationship or. rapport between the
people and the city government that was sorely needed here.
Q You testified that you have been to meetings in black
areas , too?
A Oh, absolutely.
Q Is that what you said in your book, Mr. Mims?
A Well, I think you are referring to some meetings that
were held during the heighth of racial trouble here in our
city and I happened to have # copy of the book right here and
I can quote you page and chapter where Mr. Outlaw and
Mr. Langan, who was revered by the blacks and I went to the
Davis Avenue com
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