Opinion

Robert Scheick v. Tecumseh Public Schools

  • 766 F.3d 523
  • 2014 FED App. 0218P
  • 98 Empl. Prac. Dec. (CCH) 45,148
  • 124 Fair Empl. Prac. Cas. (BNA) 322
  • 2014 U.S. App. LEXIS 16884
Court
Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit
Filed
Sep 2, 2014
Status
Published
Author
Guy
On the bench
Guy, Gibbons, Griffin
Cited by
82 cases
Authority
More cited than 83.8%

holding that "notwithstanding the evidence of dissatisfaction with [Appellant’s job] performance and the concurrent need to respond to the budget crisis” a reasonable juror could find that Appellant’s "age was the but-for cause of [his employer’s] decision not to renew the contract for his services”

How later courts described this case

  • holding that "notwithstanding the evidence of dissatisfaction with [Appellant’s job] performance and the concurrent need to respond to the budget crisis” a reasonable juror could find that Appellant’s "age was the but-for cause of [his employer’s] decision not to renew the contract for his services”
  • finding direct evidence that age discrimination was the but-for reason for -6- No. 22-1069, Gray v. AutoZoners, LLC, et al. termination where a board member told an employee that the board wanted “someone younger” instead
  • noting that even though the burden in an ADEA claim does not shift to an employer “even when a plaintiff has produced some evidence that age was one motivating factor, . . . McDonnell Douglas evidentiary framework to prove ADEA claims . . . remains consistent with Gross”
  • finding that one decisionmaker’s comment about wanting “someone younger” is direct evidence of age discrimination

Written by the judges who cited it.

The opinion

RECOMMENDED FOR FULL-TEXT PUBLICATION

Pursuant to Sixth Circuit I.O.P. 32.1(b)

File Name: 14a0218p.06

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS

FOR THE SIXTH CIRCUIT

_________________

ROBERT SCHEICK, ┐

Plaintiff-Appellant, │

│

│ No. 13-1558

v. │

>

│

TECUMSEH PUBLIC SCHOOLS; PROFESSIONAL │

EDUCATIONAL SERVICES GROUP, LLC, │

Defendants-Appellees. │

┘

Appeal from the United States District Court

for the Eastern District of Michigan at Detroit.

No. 2:11-cv-10493—Nancy G. Edmunds, District Judge.

Argued: May 1, 2014

Decided and Filed: September 2, 2014

Before: GUY, GIBBONS, and GRIFFIN, Circuit Judges.

_________________

COUNSEL

ARGUED: James M. Tucker, UNITED STATES EQUAL EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY

COMMISSION, Washington, D.C., for Amicus Curiae. Jeffrey S. Burg, LAW OFFICES OF ,

JEFFREY S. BURG, Southfield, Michigan, for Appellant. Kenneth B. Chapie, GIARMARCO,

MULLINS & HORTON, P.C., Troy, Michigan, for Appellee Tecumseh Public. Mark R. Smith,

RHOADES MCKEE PC, Grand Rapids, Michigan, for Appellee Professional Educational

Services. ON BRIEF: James M. Tucker, UNITED STATES EQUAL EMPLOYMENT

OPPORTUNITY COMMISSION, Washington, D.C., for Amicus Curiae. Jeffrey S. Burg, LAW

OFFICES OF , JEFFREY S. BURG, Southfield, Michigan, for Appellant. Kenneth B. Chapie,

Timothy J. Mullins, GIARMARCO, MULLINS & HORTON, P.C., Troy, Michigan, for

Appellee Tecumseh Public. Mark R. Smith, RHOADES MCKEE PC, Grand Rapids, Michigan,

for Appellee Professional Educational Services.

1

No. 13-1558 Scheick v. Tecumseh Public Sch., et al. Page 2

_________________

OPINION

_________________

RALPH B. GUY, JR, Circuit Judge. Plaintiff Robert Scheick appeals from the judgment

entered against him with respect to the claim that his contract was not renewed because of his

age in violation of the Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA), 29 U.S.C. § 623(a)(1),

and Michigan’s Elliott-Larsen Civil Rights Act (ELCRA), Mich. Comp. Laws Ann.

§ 37.2202(1)(a). Scheick argues that summary judgment should not have been granted in favor

of defendant Tecumseh Public Schools (TPS) and third-party defendant Professional Educational

Services Group, LLC (PESG). The EEOC has filed a brief as amicus curiae agreeing in part

with Scheick’s contentions. See FED. R. APP. P. 29(a). Finding that the evidence, viewed in the

light most favorable to Scheick, was sufficient to create a genuine issue of material fact for trial,

we reverse and remand for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.

I.

Plaintiff Robert Scheick was hired as Principal of Tecumseh High School in July 2004,

when he was 51 years of age, and continued in that position until July 2010. For the first three

years, Scheick was employed directly by TPS. Then, by agreement, the 54-year-old Scheick

formally retired from TPS and was hired by the staffing firm PESG to continue working as

principal under a three-year contract between TPS and PESG through June 30, 2010. Under that

arrangement, Scheick began receiving pension and health care benefits from the retirement

system, and TPS avoided more than $29,000 in payroll and benefit costs per year. In fact, the

next year, several other TPS employees entered into similar arrangements as cost-saving

measures.

In early 2010, when Scheick was 56 (almost 57) years of age, TPS decided not to renew

the contract for his services. Although PESG’s contract was terminable upon 30-days written

notice, there is no dispute that the nonrenewal was an adverse employment action with respect to

Scheick. Scheick continued to be employed as principal until the contract expired at the end of

June 2010, after which he was eligible for but did not seek another assignment through PESG.

No. 13-1558 Scheick v. Tecumseh Public Sch., et al. Page 3

Scheick claimed that the contract was not renewed because of his age, and he filed this action

against TPS after receiving a right-to-sue letter from the EEOC. TPS filed its own third-party

complaint for indemnification against PESG, and PESG brought a counterclaim against TPS.

The claims between TPS and PESG are not before the court—only their common position that

their motions for summary judgment were properly granted with respect to Scheick’s age

discrimination claims.

Scheick reported directly to TPS Superintendent Michael McAran for the last four of his

six years as principal (both before and after the change of employment to PESG). McAran—

who is older than Scheick by about ten years—was the sole employee of TPS’s seven-member

Board of Education, attended meetings with the Board every two weeks, and had a practice of

speaking to the board president every other day. McAran explained that he was responsible for

overseeing the district, managing the budget, and making final personnel decisions.

McAran insisted that he alone made the decision not to renew Scheick’s contract, but also

testified that he discussed the nonrenewal with several board members individually and believed

there was an informal consensus among the board members in support of his decision. Without

specifying when he made that decision, McAran said it was “well before” he met with Scheick to

discuss what would be Scheick’s first formal performance evaluation on February 25, 2010.

McAran admitted that he prepared the performance evaluation with the intention of “lay[ing] the

groundwork” to end Scheick’s relationship with TPS.

There was evidence that McAran received complaints from several parents, staff, and

board members reflecting growing dissatisfaction with Scheick’s performance and a perceived

lack of leadership on his part. Two board members—Jim Rice and Karen Januszek—stated by

way of affidavit that they had been teachers in the high school and were of the opinion that

Scheick was not an effective principal. Scheick countered with favorable opinions of his

performance from Assistant Principal Dennis Niles and Human Resources Director Donna Elser.

The most significant failure identified in the performance evaluation was the fact that the

high school did not meet the state-mandated adequate yearly progress (AYP) for two consecutive

years due to clerical errors (albeit errors not made by Scheick personally). Board Member Jason

Sines was particularly concerned about this failing. It resulted in negative publicity for TPS, as

No. 13-1558 Scheick v. Tecumseh Public Sch., et al. Page 4

did an embarrassing delay of several minutes during the graduation ceremony the previous year

when Scheick left the speeches of the valedictorian and salutatorian in his office. Scheick’s

attendance at school functions was also described as deficient, including an incident when he left

a concert early and two teachers had to handle a predictably volatile parent in his absence.

The review identified other deficiencies that had occurred in recent years including:

failing for a second time to ensure that transcripts of college-bound student athletes made it to

the NCAA’s eligibility center; failing to properly coordinate homebound-student services;

mishandling an issue concerning a special education student’s accommodations; and failing to

notify the parents of a student appearing at an expulsion hearing before the Board. Several of

these issues were raised informally with Scheick, but no further disciplinary action was taken at

the time. Although the evaluation rated two areas in need of slight improvement, McAran

testified that, overall, this was a “good, competent” evaluation. Without denying that these

incidents had occurred, Scheick responded to each of the noted deficiencies in a letter dated

March 8, 2010. On that same date, McAran sent written notice to PESG that Scheick’s contract

would not be renewed.

Scheick claims that McAran made statements to him suggesting age-based animus on

three occasions: namely, (1) in informing Scheick that the Board wanted him to retire during the

performance review on February 25; (2) in telling Scheick that “they just want somebody

younger” in an exchange on February 26; and (3) in explaining to Scheick that “they wanted

someone younger” in reference to both of their positions in a follow-up conversation on March

15. McAran disputed Scheick’s accounts of their conversations, in part, and denied that he said

the decision had anything to do with Scheick’s age. Scheick and the EEOC contend that

testimony concerning these statements constituted direct evidence of age discrimination.

Overlapping the reasons given by McAran, TPS also maintained that the nonrenewal was

the result of budget cuts that were discussed and drafted by the board’s finance committee during

January and February 2010. The evidence included affidavits by two board members—Rice and

Kevin Packard—who explained that newly announced reductions in state funding had

substantially worsened the anticipated budget deficit for the following year. The finance

committee proposed significant cuts—including closing an elementary school, selling the

No. 13-1558 Scheick v. Tecumseh Public Sch., et al. Page 5

administration building, reducing transportation, and eliminating several positions—as part of

the budget that was presented to the Board on March 9, 2010. TPS maintained that this proposed

budget contemplated elimination of the high school principal position (for an annual savings of

more than $100,000).

Rice and Packard explained that consolidation of the principal and superintendent

positions “made sense” since Scheick’s contract was ending, the administrative offices were to

be relocated to the high school building, and McAran had experience as a building principal.

They both specifically denied that Scheick’s age was a factor in those discussions, and

emphasized that the Board had approved several other contracts with PESG for administrators

who were the same age or older than Scheick had been when his contract was not renewed.1

The Board approved the budget sometime in May 2010, and Scheick’s contract expired at

the end of June 2010. McAran, who was in his mid-sixties at the time, assumed the duties of

both positions on July 1, 2010. McAran and TPS Finance Director William Wright testified that

they expected the consolidation of these positions to last for one or two years. The situation

changed unexpectedly, however, when the Board learned just before its July 19 meeting that the

reductions in state funding would likely be smaller than anticipated.

With smaller than expected cuts in state funding (together with greater than expected

enrollment), the Board decided to restore a number of the eliminated positions once the

additional funding was approved. The position of high school principal was posted in advance of

the approval (along with one other position). In August 2010, TPS hired 44-year-old Griff Mills

to be the high school principal. McAran relinquished the principal’s duties and continued to

serve as superintendent. Since Griff was a direct hire, TPS incurred payroll and benefit costs

associated with the position that had previously been avoided by contracting through PESG.

In granting summary judgment to TPS and PESG, the district court found that Scheick

had not presented direct evidence of age discrimination; could not show that he was replaced by

a younger person; and that, even if he could make a prima facie showing of age discrimination,

1

Specifically, TPS approved an extension of the PESG contract for Human Resources Director Donna

Elser, age 57, and entered into contracts with PESG for services of Payroll Specialist Jim Brown, age 67; Secretary

Cheryl Lloyd, age 62; and Director of Finance William Wright, age 59.

No. 13-1558 Scheick v. Tecumseh Public Sch., et al. Page 6

he failed to present sufficient evidence to establish pretext. Summary judgment was entered in

favor of TPS and PESG for the reasons set forth in the opinion and order of March 19, 2013, and

plaintiff’s motion for reconsideration was denied for the reasons stated in the order entered on

April 30, 2013. This timely appeal followed.

II.

The district court’s decision granting summary judgment and its denial of the motion to

reconsider that decision are both reviewed de novo. Geiger v. Tower Auto., 579 F.3d 614, 620

(6th Cir. 2009); Medical Mut. of Ohio v. Amalia Enters., Inc., 548 F.3d 383, 389-90 (6th Cir.

2008). Summary judgment is appropriate if “there is no genuine dispute as to any material fact

and the movant is entitled to judgment as a matter of law.” FED. R. CIV. P. 56(a). In making this

determination, the court must “view the evidence and draw all reasonable inferences in favor of

the non-moving party.” Fuhr v. Hazel Park Sch. Dist., 710 F.3d 668, 673 (6th Cir. 2013). For a

genuine dispute to exist, “there must be evidence on which the jury could reasonably find for the

plaintiff.” Anderson v. Liberty Lobby, Inc., 477 U.S. 242, 252 (1986).

A. Standards

The ADEA makes it unlawful for an employer “to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge

. . . or otherwise discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms,

conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual’s age.” 29 U.S.C.

§ 623(a)(1). To prevail on a claim under the ADEA, it is not sufficient for the plaintiff to show

that age was a motivating factor in the adverse action; rather, the ADEA’s “because of” language

requires that a plaintiff “prove by a preponderance of the evidence (which may be direct or

circumstantial) that age was the ‘but-for’ cause of the challenged employer decision.” Gross v.

FBL Fin. Servs., Inc., 557 U.S. 167, 177-78 (2009) (citing Reeves v. Sanderson Plumbing Prods,

Inc., 530 U.S. 133, 141-43, 147 (2000)). For an employer to take an adverse action “because of

age” means “‘that age was the “reason” that the employer decided to act.’” Univ. of Tex. Sw.

No. 13-1558 Scheick v. Tecumseh Public Sch., et al. Page 7

Med. Ctr. v. Nassar, 133 S. Ct. 2517, 2527 (2013) (quoting Gross, 557 U.S. at 176) (extending

Gross to retaliation claims under Title VII).2

Gross clarified that the burden of persuasion does not shift to the employer in an ADEA

case, “even when a plaintiff has produced some evidence that age was one motivating factor in

that decision.” 557 U.S. at 180; see Geiger, 579 F.3d at 621 (recognizing abrogation of prior

precedent in direct evidence cases under the ADEA). But, as this and every other circuit has

held, application of the McDonnell Douglas evidentiary framework to prove ADEA claims based

on circumstantial evidence remains consistent with Gross. See Schoonmaker v. Spartan

Graphics Leasing, LLC, 595 F.3d 261, 264 n.2 (6th Cir. 2010) (citing Geiger, 579 F.3d at 622);

Sims v. MVM, Inc., 704 F.3d 1327, 1332-33 (11th Cir. 2013) (collecting cases).

Further, nothing in Gross undermines the principle that “[t]he direct evidence and

circumstantial evidence paths are mutually exclusive; a plaintiff need only prove one or the

other, not both.” Kline v. TVA, 128 F.3d 337, 348-49 (6th Cir. 1997); see also Trans World

Airlines, Inc. v. Thurston, 469 U.S. 111, 121 (1985) (“McDonnell Douglas test is inapplicable

where the plaintiff presents direct evidence of discrimination”). The district court found that

Scheick had not demonstrated a question of fact under either evidentiary path. Regardless of the

evidentiary route taken, however, “[t]he ultimate question in every employment discrimination

case involving a claim of disparate treatment is whether the plaintiff was the victim of intentional

discrimination.” Reeves, 530 U.S. at 153.

B. Direct Evidence

Before Gross, our circuit defined direct evidence as that evidence “which, if believed,

requires the conclusion that unlawful discrimination was at least a motivating factor in the

employer’s actions.” Wexler v. White’s Fine Furniture, Inc., 317 F.3d 564, 570 (6th Cir. 2003)

(en banc); see also DiCarlo v. Potter, 358 F.3d 408, 415-16 (6th Cir. 2004) (overruled on other

2

Michigan’s Elliott-Larsen Civil Rights Act (ELCRA) provides that an employer shall not discriminate

against an individual with respect to employment “because of . . . age.” MICH. COMP. LAWS ANN. § 37.2202(1)(a).

The district court analyzed the age discrimination claims brought under the ELCRA using the same standards we

apply to claims brought under the ADEA. See Geiger, 579 F.3d at 626; Bondurant v. Air Line Pilots Ass’n,

679 F.3d 386, 394 (6th Cir. 2012); see also Howard v. Mich. Dep’t of Corr., No. 344258, 2013 WL 2223133 (Mich.

Ct. App. May 21, 2013). Plaintiff has not argued that this was error, and any claim that the Michigan courts would

analyze the claim differently has been waived.

No. 13-1558 Scheick v. Tecumseh Public Sch., et al. Page 8

grounds by Gross, 557 U.S. at 180, as stated in Geiger, 579 F.3d at 621). Because Wexler’s

definition does not survive in the ADEA context after Gross, we now look to whether evidence,

if believed, requires the conclusion that age was the “but for” cause of the employment decision.

Under either articulation, the inquiry includes both a predisposition to discriminate and that the

employer acted on that predisposition. DiCarlo, 358 F.3d at 415. In other words: “Direct

evidence is evidence that proves the existence of a fact without requiring any inferences.”

Rowan v. Lockheed Martin Energy Sys., Inc., 360 F.3d 544, 548 (6th Cir. 2004) (citing cases);

see also DiCarlo, 358 F.3d at 415. As noted, Scheick testified that McAran made statements to

him on three occasions suggesting that the nonrenewal decision was caused by age-based

animus.

1. Statements by McAran

First, on February 25, McAran allegedly began Scheick’s first formal performance

review by stating: “The Board wants you to retire.” McAran explained that the Board wanted to

have someone as high school principal who would take over as superintendent after a few years,

and then asked Scheick how long he intended to work. Scheick answered that he wanted to work

at least two more years, although he did not “get a chance” to also say that he would possibly

stay longer. They discussed the performance evaluation and whether a “buyout” or a one-year

extension of the contract under a performance improvement plan might be possible. Scheick

testified that when he added, “or the [B]oard could force you to fire me,” McAran agreed with

him.

The following day, February 26, McAran approached Scheick to ask whether he was “all

right” and whether he would be interested in a “buyout.” Then, according to Scheick, McAran

volunteered that “they just want somebody younger.” Finally, on March 15, a week after notice

of the nonrenewal was sent to PESG, Scheick made an appointment and met with McAran to

discuss his options. McAran said he had no options, and explained that “they wanted someone

younger.” Scheick asked what he meant, and McAran said they wanted someone younger for

both the principal and superintendent positions. McAran, on the other hand, claimed that he had

been referring only to himself.

No. 13-1558 Scheick v. Tecumseh Public Sch., et al. Page 9

2. Analysis

TPS and PESG argue that these statements do not constitute direct evidence because they

are ambiguous with respect to who “they” referred to, what position or positions were being

referenced, and whether the statements reflected the intent of the decisionmaker.3

The first statement, made during the performance review, did not constitute direct

evidence of age discrimination. As the district court found, McAran’s statement that the Board

wanted Scheick to retire would require an inference to conclude that retirement was a proxy for

age (as opposed to either years of service or a desire that he leave the position voluntarily). See,

e.g., Scott v. Potter, 182 F. App’x 521, 526 (6th Cir. 2006) (finding the statement “[w]hy don’t

you retire and make everybody happy” did not constitute direct evidence of age discrimination).

In contrast, McAran’s other two statements about wanting “someone younger” are not

ambiguous and, if believed, do not require an inference to conclude that age was the but-for

cause of the decision not to renew Scheick’s contract. First, the statements by McAran to

Scheick on February 26 and March 15, respectively, represent direct references to age. See

Sharp v. Aker Plant Servs. Grp., Inc., 726 F.3d 789, 794 (6th Cir. 2013) (involving statement

“we want someone younger”). Moreover, the statements are not ambiguous despite the lack of

an explicit statement that “the Board” wanted someone younger. Cf. Fuhr, 710 F.3d at 674

(finding ambiguities required inferences about what part of the “old boys network” took which

unspecified retaliatory actions). Any suggestion that “they” could have referred to parents or

staff is not credible. Rather, as Scheick and the EEOC argued, McAran could not have been

referring to anyone other than the Board (whether formally or by informal consensus).4

Nor are McAran’s alleged statements made ambiguous because there is uncertainty about

whether McAran was referring only to Scheick’s position as principal or to both the principal

3

There is no dispute that McAran’s alleged statements would be relevant to show age-based bias in

connection with the nonrenewal decision; the only question is whether they constitute direct evidence of age

discrimination. See Peters v. Lincoln Elec. Co., 285 F.3d 456, 478 (6th Cir. 2002) (identifying four factors to be

considered in evaluating statements that allegedly show an employer’s age bias); see also Diebel v. L&H Res., LLC,

492 F. App’x 523, 526 (6th Cir. 2012).

4

Scheick and the EEOC also argued that McAran must have been referring to the Board because his first

statement about retirement expressly referenced the Board. However reasonable such an inference might be, it

would require an inference to reach that conclusion.

No. 13-1558 Scheick v. Tecumseh Public Sch., et al. Page 10

and superintendent positions. Either way, McAran was at least referring to Scheick’s position.

Finally, TPS argues that there is ambiguity about whether the statements reflected the intention

of the decisionmaker. However, because there was evidence that both McAran and the Board

were involved in making the decision, it is immaterial whether McAran was acting at the behest

of the Board, or on his own with input from the Board. Cf. Brown v. Packaging Corp. of Am.,

338 F.3d 586, 589-90 (6th Cir. 2003) (statement by supervisor with no involvement in the

decision was not direct evidence of age discrimination). Thus, Scheick presented evidence

which, if believed, would require the conclusion that age was the but-for cause of TPS’s decision

not to renew the contract.

C. But-For Causation

The EEOC asserts that, by definition, the presentation of direct evidence of age

discrimination necessarily precludes entry of summary judgment in favor of the employer.

Although this question has not been squarely addressed in the case law since Gross, the EEOC’s

citation to Geiger does not support its contention that direct evidence will always defeat an

employer’s motion for summary judgment with respect to claims under the ADEA.

In Geiger, after finding that direct evidence of age discrimination had not been presented,

this court also held that, even if the plaintiff had established a link between the allegedly biased

actor and the adverse action, “the record clearly indicates that age was not the ‘but-for’ factor in

[the] decision to choose [another] over Geiger.” Geiger, 579 F.3d at 622 n.3. This conclusion

recognizes that Gross altered the burden of proof on the issue of causation and indicates that

direct evidence of age discrimination may not always be sufficient to create a question of fact for

trial in the ADEA context. See also Hnizdor v. Pyramid Mouldings, Inc., 413 F. App’x 915, 918

(7th Cir. 2011) (holding that despite direct evidence of age-based animus, undisputed evidence

of longstanding plan to move accounting department established that no rational juror could

conclude that age was the but-for cause of the adverse action).5

5

The EEOC’s passing citation to Sharp is also unavailing. There, although direct evidence was presented,

the court considered evidence of other explanations and concluded that the “true reason” for the adverse action could

not be determined as a matter of law. Sharp, 726 F.3d at 802 (applying Gross to claim under Kentucky law).

No. 13-1558 Scheick v. Tecumseh Public Sch., et al. Page 11

Moreover, it is telling that Gross relied on Reeves, which, in turn, reiterated that “trial

courts should not treat discrimination differently from other ultimate questions of fact.” Reeves,

530 U.S. at 148 (citation and internal quotation marks omitted). The Court explained that the

ultimate question (even under McDonnell Douglas) is whether the evidence taken together “may

permit the trier of fact to conclude that the employer unlawfully discriminated.” Id. Thus, even

when direct evidence of age discrimination has been offered, the question to be asked in deciding

an employer’s motion for summary judgment is whether the evidence, taken as a whole and in

the light most favorable to plaintiff, is sufficient to permit a rational trier of fact to conclude “that

age was the ‘but-for’ cause of the challenged employer decision.” Gross, 557 U.S. at 178.

Here, notwithstanding the evidence of dissatisfaction with Scheick’s performance and the

concurrent need to respond to the budget crisis, the evidence, taken as a whole and in the light

most favorable to Scheick, is sufficient to permit a reasonable juror to conclude that Scheick’s

age was the but-for cause of TPS’s decision not to renew the contract for his services. Although

TPS or PESG may ultimately prove otherwise, Scheick has met his burden to come forward with

evidence sufficient to establish that a genuine issue of material fact exists for trial.

REVERSED and REMANDED for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.

This is a copy of a public record, reproduced as it was published. It is not legal advice, and it may not be the version a court would rely on. Check the official source before you cite it.

A word about cookies

We need a few to keep you signed in and the library working. The rest help us see which pages people use and where they get stuck. They stay off unless you say yes.