# Transcript of Record — Anderson v. Mt. Clemens Pottery Co. > Briefs, arguments, decisions, and more. URL: https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40386450_0122%3A03 ## Record - **Collection:** Supreme Court brief - **Document type:** Transcript of Record - **Published:** January 1, 1946 - **Citation:** 328 U.S. 680 ## Text « eng a ra oo me’ fs Pi pan. y wry a ‘a ™% : . . Re ong eats Ay te! Ls TF “ ee. ~ &)). a * eet ~ cal rie rao ad ¥ Jt a 9 ’ 5 Seth =a Court of th United Stat upreme Ort OF TE UNNBO ofaies | : OCTOBER TERM, 1945 — é -~ é} No. te Sit te ° e STEVE ANDERSON, EARL TROMBLEY, LILEDAN SOCTA, ARBERT WATRINS. ARTHUR “ SIBBE, ) NELSON LUCHTMAN, RETA SCHULTE, individually, for and mn behalf of themselves and other- similarly situ : dated; and LOCAL. No. boss.) UNTPED POTTERY WORKERS OF AMERICA, Affiliated: with the € Oi eres , “of Industrial Organyations, Mi. Clemens. Michisa ° ” Petitioners, et f ; ; “ st ° WS. i AE CLEMENS HOTTERY COMPARY, Ree sph dot nl nl. ———_—_-——+- ey TRANSCRIPT OF RECORD \ On Petition for Writ of Certiorari to the United States Circuit : Court of ‘Appeals for the Sixth Cireuit (VOL. 11l—Index and Panes 1057. to 1583. Inclusive) (Proceedings in U.S. Circuit Court of pe. Sixth Circuit) —-—— — a EDWARD LAMB, : LOWELL GOERLICH., : 1014 Edison Bldg... Toledo, Ohne, j Attorneys for Petitioners. FRANK. E. COOPER. . BEAUMONT, SMITH & HARRIS, Ford, Building, * Detroit.. Michigan, BERT V. NUNNELEY, Mt.: Clemens, Mich. Attorneys for Respondent. SS = ¢ 3 Fs ea ., ne: > we fy Seen pam 3 EMIS RAIS PERN LEAP ME : - _ , we. ~~ ‘ a" os aan: at - - 8 . a : e : - . ¥ a7] ‘ . e oO . eo y . . 5 . . te ‘ ° e 5 “ ° “ ‘ i e % | a ee | ; ; /GENERAL INDEX : 7 Index of Exhibits —. ; . The exhibits, including those which were not designated for inclusion v “ef each exhibit and with references to transcript and record pages in im the printed record, are listed numerically with a concise description | the concluding volume of the record. To conserve space, this Index: of * Exhibits has not been reproduced in. the General Index. | rai oy ——— index of Pleadings: - = - . Record : , ‘ E / Page : 4 able of Calendar Entries «ppc Sey Soe 3 4 ee } . ou | PROCEEDINGS IN UNITED STATES CIRCUIT COURT = * 4 OF APPEALS—SIXTH CIRCUIT. a . | / PAGE | Entry—Cahise” Argued and Submitted... 1587 7 2 Judgment ....... Mi A set Seebnne se ee 1587 He Opin nn ccc lineetpeeeneeeteee ABBR 9 4 Clerk’s Certificate sanscnsasnnnsattaienahd aye wetness | a! eae mae 1598 ‘es Q ; oo 4 ; : Designation of Harry May, et al ..... ‘2 $5 -4 Designation of Arthur: Baxter, et al ....0....-- . 36 - Designation of. -Ruth Gottschalk, et al .... coon eeeneeentette ieee) ‘Designation of Arthur Sibbe, et ee eee — penne ae 39 4 Designation of H. Wilson, et al ares me ey By Opal eeccecbeeeeten . "S Bill ‘of Particulars. .......-..-..------------f ig eka een . 42 g - ’ fig" li Recor Page Motion: to strike or for further particulars SL seshascinmtdicnd ootidec hast ae "Order on motion of defendant to strike or for further particulars... of - Order extending time to file es saa to the Bill of Particulars to December 15, 1941 0000 Fe... iemaewid aa auc 3 - Amendment to plaintiff’s Bill of Particulars ..:......:6.2:....00004 ec. 5 _ Motion for Judgment and for appointment of’ Special Master... . Motion of Mt. Clemens Pottery ee to strike or for further particulars. . RSE CRIS REE AA OT OT | . Answer of Mt. Clemens Pottery Company to Motion for pena and for appointment of Special Master ............ Pea Sy ne && Order denying Motion for Judginent ees eas fas Bed cis Rr RYE. Answer of Mt. Clemens Pottery Company and Motions to Dismiss « . @me Bertie 5... aieisiae te LPR Sap St AEC IE , Of Order wieea plaintist ’s request for Judgment without eer © NI Sk ccc a ashlar sas ovcckecsansgbininenneatsdinss pockinnscitapescsan, eee eae .. 113 Senetiinentel Order. denying . ’s request for Judement * without prejudice, MI nde nenns chess cognate codeesnonss tnangueiieonouatncinnccene 114 : Exceptions of Mt. Clemens Pottery Company to ‘Supplemental, Order of January 6, 1942 2 Spisnle Wah aoe Gas 115! ' Motion of plaintiffs for Summary Judgment .. seo tie Nannon fOr oe 117 Answer of Mt. Clemens Pottery Company to Motion. for Gurinnes ; II a ced ee ee er pti: ~ 125 Order denying Motion for ‘Summary Judgment ce 136° Order denying Motion for Summary Judgment and referring cause . to ‘Donald. L. Quaife as Special Master ee Die Rape lie Pe Re aes - 137. Supplemental Order denxing Motion for Summary J udgment, ete:.. 139 i Designation of Irene Nocker, et al 00002000... pc ictiansasecineeu ned 141» . Designation of Bil> Behnke, et al ...... ota nae, Ra ot Me -... 142 2 “oe Ld ’ , cd ¢ ah. . % , : ry . : ie . *, Page Report of Special Master 02... goss pecuseeiek | Objections to Master’ 8 Report ceedadeccnssecsonse BN ere ATA ne 218. _ Motion of Mt. Clemens Pottery Company tor entry ot Judgment ' on Report of Special RS ts acd ENeeaelinas 237 » Order dismissing cause as toS.8 3. Kresge Co. with prejudice 238 - Opinion of the Court (July 2 , 1943) .. So ame Lie ae Os ce - Motion of Plaintiffs to settle Findings of — Conclusions of _ Law and for Judgment,,.../....-.---- Teron eee RRs uses cheeeeicdeocinter’ ae = : t | Motion of Plaintiffs for ‘Supplemental Findings .2....:0.0...00 0020... 256 : : > Motion of Defendant Sedpepne adoption of Findings and ¢'on- 7 ne a allan puascenisemmpiabninsmenisner he ... 259 : Notice of settlement of findings of fact, and conclusions of law... 269 : Findings of Fact and ¢ ‘onclusions of. Law ited SPR Cee Preliminary Statement of Exceptions t by Defendant to Findings : of Fact and Conclusions: of Law . NS ain enero orn Deroy 274 ; Computations made in accordarice with Court’s findings. 276 ‘ Notice of hearing ou defendant’s motion for findings - : _- 2860 5 Opinion of-the Court (Marek 3, 1944) * Beane. tess nee 2 87 ; ‘Motion ‘to Amend- ‘Findings of Faot and ( ‘onelasions, of Law and: :. for an. entry of, Judgment Pei os CPs ve arene. Ep i Objections to allowance of attorney fees 245) Judgment. for Piaintiffs in $2,415.74, ‘attorney. fees $2,000. 00 ‘ok _ . Costs to be Taxed : oe ene ; ye Ne ee | . Petition.for Fixing of Bond and Providing for Stay on ‘om OE TI ies coisas cron eemananentctne DeTaNe Teerietennecaree oh «Server , . 306 » Order fixing Amount of ‘Supersddaas and dance Bond and, Pro- viding for Stay on Giving of Bond. Pee Br ae 2 307 ¢ iv 6 ® oy Petition for Order ‘Dispensing with. a | of Physical | ‘Exhibits in Printed Record (.00000000.0.00. 308 Order Dispensing with Reproduction of Exhibits in Printed Record ‘B12 . : Notice of Appeal to Cireuit Court of Appeals Under Rule 7 i 13. 313 Supersedeas and Appeal Bond_ Pree sdstnrepaonene See Bak aticialowd 314 Proof of Mailing Notice BRFSS eens isedilas ssonseces vessase ORO & Designation tf Record om Appeal by Defendant,Appellant aks .. 316 Concise Statement. of Points ‘on which. Defendant- eansecine Mt. : Clemens Pottery Company. Intends to Rely . a a Affidavit of Service ................. necenausovesnsenad iiadedetasiaplincacdatuehes inpcvasthedaeetal 379 | Order Extending Time to File Record on Appeal... aes 1582 — Stipulation As to Transcript and Exhibits LP NA ia eepds 1582 . Order allowing certiorari ® a ; . : 1509) € ? ¥e —_— go *: 6 - INDEX OF WITNESSES Witnesses Called’ by the Plaintiffs oe ‘ Anderson, Steve— _ . Tirect Examination by Mr. Lamb |... Direct Examination (Resumed) by Mr. Lamb ‘Cross Examination by Mr. Cooper Redirect Examination by Mr. Lamb |... oe Recross Examination by Mr. Cooper Dacko, N Elita oy: / Direct Examination by Mr. ak | (ress Examination by, Mr. Cooper Redirect Examination by Mr. Lamb Recross Examin&tion by Mr. Cooper Redirect Examination by Mr. Lamb . Doll, Charles K.. ‘Sr. — % Examination by Mr. Lajeah i ar. ae (‘ross Examination by Mr. Cooper ‘Freddie, Kva— : Direct Examination by } Mr. Lamb .. Cross Examination (Resumed) by Mr. C ‘ooper Cross Examination (Resumed) by Mr. Cooper . .Cross Examination by Mr. Nunneley - re Redirect Examination by Mr, Lamb ...... ...... ee Recross Examination by Mr. Nunnéley.. . 406 $21. .: wie OO _ 600 © 606 | Recross Examination (Recalled) by Mr. ‘ooper.. a ‘ Redirect Examination (Recalled) by Mr. Lamb’ : Recross Examination by Mr. Nunneléy 939 1473 1474 Hecord Transcript ri) 502 505 $31 sa) * 2090 3505 3525 iy74 L9YS 2049 2107 2183 2185 - 2194 1467 -° 48Y 1784 1813 1945 1974 : vi a We. a Record ’ Larimer, Karl William— Direct EXamination by ‘Mr. Goerlich —--_. 69) Cross Examination by Mr. Nunneley 701 | Metz, John A.—. . Direct Examination by Mr* Lamb 607 Cross Examination by Mr. Nunneley 625 Pearl, Floyd E.— | nay Direct Examination by Mr. hamb.__ 1480 ‘Cross Examination by Mr. Nunneley ..........:......:.. 1486: Redirect Examination by Mr. Lamb ee sere rine > ; Reifin, Harry A.— ys 2 * Direct Examination’ by ‘Mr. Lamb 1314 Cross Examination by Mr. Nunneley . 133s. Socia, Lillian— m4 Direct Examination by Mr. Goerlich - 736 Crass Examination by Mr. Cooper 743 i Trombley, Kar] R.—. Direct Exapination by Mr. Lamb . 425) Cross Examination by Mr. Nunneley 435 Redirect Examination by Mr. Lamb... .’s. ... «518 Reeross Examination by Mr. money 520 Wishart, James H.— Aa) Direct Examination by Mr. ‘Sims ee ae Ac ae 1449 Cross Examination hy Mr. Nunneley ‘li — Tranmecrip: - 112) 116) vile : res _ Witnesses Called by the Defendant. : Record Pheu, Pail C— | Direct Examination by Mr. NIE ieee Cross Examination by Mr. Lamb 974 Cross Examination by Mr, ‘Boos _... 979 ecross Examination by Mr. Lamb .... 981 Redirect Examination hy ‘Mr. Cooper . v8) “Doli, ‘Charles E., io. : - Direct Examination by Mr. Nunneley |. 1209 | _ | Cross Examination by ay Pe eennene | ~ | 2 Redirect Examination by Mr. Numneley ....... .. 1233 _ _ .Redirect Examination “(Recalled). by. Mr. Cooper. . 1571 qi - Redirect Examination ( Recalled) by Mr. Nunneley. 1472 _ _ Reeross Examination by Mr. Lamb : 1472 | 4 ‘4 . ¢ f * Doll, Char les E.. oc — : Previous Examination by-Mr. Cooper ate 1U8ti 4 Direct Examination by Mr. Cooper é 1275 _ . Cross Examination by Mr. Lamb ......... ec 5 Redirect Examination by Mr. Cooper +... ,......1294 g Redirect Examination (Recalled) by Mr. Capper... 1436 _’ - Recross Examination by Mr. Lamb... ..............1435) : Redirect Examination byt Mr. Cooper ......................1440 .’ Redirect Examination (Resumed) by Mr. Cooper. ...1466 : _ Redirect Examination (Recalled) by Mr. Nunneley. 14:0 : Doll, James: R.— : | a te Direct Examination by Mr. Cooper: nce Fitton, Robert A.— Direct Examination by Mr. ee cs 983, Cross Examination by Mr. Lamb .... SORES 7A 995 Redirect Examination by Mr. ‘Nunpley . 998 ‘6 Transcript aN viii : natiges e " ; : , ; Necerd ‘Trans ' Fitton, Robert A.—(Continued) z ons + Cross Examination _by.Mr. Boos ~~... ee ‘ ™ >" “Recross Examination by Mr. Lamb ....... a ow 6 ‘Redirect Examination. by Mr. Nunneley ............... ~.-1000. 9 a Fox, Joséph D.— ae | Direct Examination by: Mr. Cooper 0... 1234 y Cross Examination by Mr. Lamb ...... nS 2 Harms, Krnest A.— Meats , , Direct Examination by Mr. Cooper (©. L166 J = _ Cross Examination by Mr. Lamb... teeeeteeee LBD 2 Redirect Examination by Mr. Cooper ......__ -.. .1207 2 q Starner, Carl— . ea . Direct Examination by Mr. Nunneley es )|6l6U ross Examination by Mr. Lamb... 1064s 2) Redirect ‘Examination by Mr. Nunneley er 2 . *. -Recross Examination by Mr. Lamb... 1078 2 . , Redirect Examination by Mr. Numneley 1084 2. Recross Examination by Mr. Lamb 1085 2. Stief, Willard ¢.—. Direct Examination by Mr. Cooper. | pees |) Cross, Examination by Mr. Lamb |. ir 130K. Bt Trabue, Macon Charles— > e end Direct Examination by Mr. Cooper a 3 ; Cross Examination by Mr. Lamb... .s«1415 3 . °° Redirect Examination by.Mr. Cooper. «430 3 ree Recross Examination by Mr. Lamb. sss—(si‘—Ss—sCSCéi 3 Wright, Pierce E— Bs Diréct Examination by Mr. Cooper .................. ae 1339 3] Cross Examination by Mr. Lamb... "136235 Redirect Examination by Mr. Cooper 1368 3 7 | 2 2 ae Fig ect cab pst tite SG Sais Tae rs = i” wet ; =. Mess wa OS ipa | Sy Yay eye . . “ ~ as eee ae = . . Se ae . . > . > is ak Sb sei { y .4..2 .. Fe EOS BGS pie REA oe pit IL I RE GG Pte Oe i. ei poets ae RS Ga ES OY Sa a 38 _ . - a ' : : . Curl L. Starner o 1057 — > - Starner. Now, in giving your estimates of these times, they are given without having held a sto watch on these people to see how quickly they can walk from _ one place to another? A. That is right; I wouldn’t want to be— 'Q. And they are also given with reference to the con-' ‘ditions under which these people have to travel the dis-. tance, being through the factory with whatever turns, obstructions and so on there. might be in the way, is that right? . A. That is right, yes. Q. And it is based very largely on the fact that from. your observation: you know what time they arrive in gen- ‘eral in the department; where you have the job of get- ting them started at an established starting time, is that . correct? A. That is ela yes. Q. Now. I ask you I believe, about this day; I showed that Mr. Metz, on Exhibit 31, the first Monday on which he was on the morning shift, which shows that he checked out at the clock at 10:31; 1 think at that time you were — being asked whether he had quit work or stopped work ee. 10:307 You ask’ me that — now? : Yes. A. T would say that he had to auit before “10:30, to ring out at 10:31. Q.. And on the same day, on Exhibit 31, it shows that - again. at noon, the ‘lunch period, that he apparently punched theeclock at 10:53: would you say that he started work before 11 0’elock or after 11-0’clock, or when? * * ° A. 1 don’t see how he could get started there before 1 o’¢lock Q. What is vour best judgment as to. that? 1058 at Carl L. Starner A. | would Say it would be 11 o’clock or after, before he starts; ring in at 10:53, I would say 11 o’clock or after. Q. And in each of those cases he couldn't start any- way, until the other two were there in his group? A, That is right. Q. And it shows that he rang , out. on that came Mon- day, referring to Exhibit 31,.at 2:40. What would you say as to whether he worked after 2:30 or not? A. Well, my—from — I would say that this -man didn’t work after 2: * Q. As a matter of fact, what is the ena practice in the department as to requiring them to stop at the stopping time? A. We insist on them stopping at 2:30. The Master: Just to get your testimony clear in each case, when you state he didn’t start work until such and such a time, or ‘he didn't stop—or he stopped work at ‘such and such a time, and when you say you insist on them stenting at 2:30, you are referring in éacl) case, stoppirg production work? . toe A. That is right. ; The Master: Or starting production work? A. Or starting production work. * * * The Master: Exhibit 31 you have been testifying to, you stated Mr. Metz came in in the morning on.the first: Monday on the card at 5:49, and-you stated he. couldn't have gone to work much hefore 6:00. A. That is right. The Master: And you have also stated Metz, most of the time, was working on these mangles which have this particular operation.- When you stated Metz could not have started work much before 6:00, did you have in mind he could not have started his operation as a jigger man before 6:00, or that he could not have started his turning on the heat much before 6007°* * * A. I think my testimony before would stand the same even without.that operation. ° : Carl L. Starner | 1059 Q. (By Mr. Nunneley) In other words, you mean by that, figuring it either way he couldn’t have started: be- fore .6 o’clock? | i A. That is it exactly. | Q. So that when the employee went back and ‘he started up his tool or machinery that ‘was provided for _ him to tmake his ware with, is that correct ? | A. ‘That is right. ‘Q. And. part of the starting up operation would be the turning on of the heat? A. It could be termed as a, = ** Q. (By Mr. Nunneley) Mr. Starner, were 5 there times . when the starting time was changed? In other words, was it always 6 o’clock, or was it varied from time to ee? Res 3 = , | Carl L. Starner atid $0 » on, that you have given here, what observation or - means have you or did you have of finding out or " know: ing what. the times were? A. That is, in coming into the depariment? | Q. Yes, in coming in. vies ini A. Well, from obstrvation, t é time the peopl® come into the department, you could tell about when, they rang jn: In other words, it is several minutes after: the time for the people to ring ip that they actually arrive in the department, and I have noticed time ‘cards at different times, looking at them, the time that they rang in and’ rang out, and judging by the time they arrived and leit the-department about’ how much time they consumed be- ° tween the clock and their departments: That has been ‘my observation. That is the way I am basing my. caleu- lations here. ? Q,. And you also at one time were an. ‘setsis worker, doing these same operations, is that correct? | ry a sir. Ow, on Tuesday, when Mr. Metz was on the morn. ing nos it shows he punched in on Exhibit 31 at 5:51, is that correct? ; [ -A. That.-is right, sir. : 3 -Q. What is your testimony as td. whethe} he started to work before 6 o’clock on that day? A, From all observations, I would. say that \he wouldn’’t be started before 6 o’clock. - Q. And on the same day, as shown on. Exhibit 31, he punched out at 10:30 at lunch time. What time would you say he stopped work on that day? \. \ A. It would be impossible for him to work to 10:30 and ring out at.10:30. I would say he had to quit minutes before 10:30 to’ get to the time clock at 10:30. Q. And on that same day, shown on Exhibit 31, Tues- day, on the morning shift, he rang in again°*after lunch at 10:54. Would you say he- got started to work before 11 o’clock on that day? A. I don’t believe Metz could ot started at #1 o'clock _ that day. { Carl Lb. Starner 143) 2 m~ Q. From your observation would it be true that he must have started after 11? A. I believe so. Q. And on the same.day, Tuesday, that he Was on the pene shift, shown on Exhibit 31, it shows he rang out at 2:54. Would vou say that. he worked after 2:45 on that day? * * * Q. (By Mr. Nuiineley) Will) vou answer the ques- tion? Do you recall what the question was? A. Yes: I don’t see. how somebody could constantly: disobey the rules without. our observatior; | would say that the man quit at 2:45. ° °° -The Master: I would*tike to ask this question : if Metz _ punched the time clock at 14 minutes to 6:00 on a given . morning, would, you say that he coyld have started work ‘before six o "clock, production work?. A. Well; his starting. to work at 6 o ’elock would de- pend upon the other two people of the grgup; even if he was in there in time’ enough to start before 6 o’cletk him- self; so I don’t see how he could have ever beer timed to be in there:at 14 minutes to. In — that doesn ‘t a They don’t do that. ‘The Master: .I don” just see ‘lint siies we are going” to sé out of going tise all these time clock cards then, because even if he got in at the very earliest time _ the witness. would still say, that is the very earliest time he could go by the time clock, he would still say he didn’t | start work before six.. Your testimony yesterday, I be- lieve, was that as a normal proposition nobody started work before 6 o’clock, when the shift was supposed to start at six, is that right? A. That is right; I think’ I testified we would never quibble over a minute. or two: ‘before 6 o’clock,. because we never stood there with a clock in our hands. The Master: -They might start a minute or two before, but not before that?. A. It is possible, if everything synchronized so they could’ start, then we wouldn’t ‘object to it. The starting time was 6 o’clock. “I can’t say, and I don’t think any- Tt | an L062 Carl 1. Sifirner body else can say nobody started before 6 o’cleck, unless there was somé kind of timing there to show Whether they ’ did or not. * * * *.Q. (By Mr. Nunneley) Mrv Starner; it was,- a I un- derstood you to testify yesterday, it- was instructions from the management. at foremen’s meetings, and was part of your job, _to see that the time was kept down to the legal amount, whether 44, 42, or 40; or under. You testitied to. that yesterday? | That is. absolutely right. SRE 4 Now, in your department were there any employees during the period the law was in effect who habitually . and continuously worked more than the 40 hours, or. 42 - hours, or 44, as the case may be, when the law was in ‘effect? * * * 4 A. The answer to that would be no, ‘absolutely not. The Master: And, again, by ‘*work’’ you are defining . work as production work, just to get the record: clear’. A. That is. right. Sale Mr. Lamb: May the,record also show I request the. e answer of the witness be stricken. - The. Master: Yes. I _ deny: it and. let the testimony stand. ; s ‘Q. (By Mr. ae Mr. Stdgner, in cndes where ' people ‘might have occasionally worked over the 40 hours. or 42, or 44, as ‘the case may be, wopld: that show in. the: records? A. It certainly would. - Q. Mr. Starner, in this Exhibit 31 I notice there is.a time when Mr. Metz punched, out at 2:18. What would that indicate? (Handing exhibit to witness.) A. His time in that cBse,. of course, as computed by ‘ the card, would stop -at.™2:15, ‘but he would actu- ally have quit before that time to be able to ring out at - 2:18. Does that answer your “question? Q. Would that mean that he quit, also, at some time before the 2:301 ee A. Before the given time to stop. | u - . oon WPS ae ag Crd : (RRNA AIS Cea AYERS Sa Va eee os Saye naked: Curl LiStarwer 1063, The Master: Why would he quit at 2:18 if. the, sluft ended at 2:30? | ‘ = fe ist "A. Well, there is times when various reasons would come up that.a fellow would want to quit. in a hurry.and - he would do that, wanting to go somewhere, he had to be some place at a certain time, and he wanted to stop early. thut day. “There was various reasons why a -fellow” . wanted to quit at 2:15. ‘Ifthe department didn’t quii we would give a fellow permisstén to stop. ° oe Q. You used the expression ‘‘changing uniforms.”’ 8 “4 ° . Nobody wears-a uniform there, do they, in the ordinary ie + sense of the word? | “A. .No, not the“éntire uniform. I ‘really meant their aprons and things like ‘that. ‘I was really referring to the - aprons. age” | ie. acing ~Q. (By Mr. Nunneley) Mr. Starner, did you’ ever’ see Mr. Lamb before you came into court here yesterday? A. Never did, sir. - tes : Q. Did~you ever; have him pointed out or recognize ~ him.in any way? - — 7. o : ; A. Never have, sir. . + Q. ‘Did you ever'start suit against the Mt. Clemens Pottery Company, and garnishee the S. S. Kresge Com pany in Toledo? : : - -A. Absolutely not. @. Did you ever authorize anybody to start such a” suit for you? ‘ A. No, sir. . ‘Q. If such a suit’ was started, was it, done entirely without your permission or authority, Mr. Starner? _ A. Yes, sir, entirely without it. Q. suit? . ns : A. When I first learned that, when’I. was told by Mr. Doll. = ae Q. Do you reéall somewhere when that wast_- A. ' The exact time, I don’t believe I could give you. It has been some time ago. ~ . | = Mr. Nunneley: . Take the witness. ~ | When did you: first learn that there was such a. ™ "ae : IPs A a , by om a Py ze : tae ~- » e . te 10647 r i Carl re Starner eee & g Cross Examinatipn -_ i ie hee ee, er Q: Do understand that if. you are one of the named’ - plaintiffs in an-.action in a proceeding for those named plaintiffs, instituted in a court down in Toledo, that the . authorization and power -of: attorney and other records .~ signed -by the employees in- thesé matters, nofie of such ' reeords would bear your signature, is that correct? . - A. I haven’t signed no papers or giv en anyone author. itv to bring abgut any. “ suit.. . Q. And if there’ is @ signature’ on an, satiate, and power of attorney purporting*to be your signature. that would not bave been applied by yourself, is that eor- rect? ; ait a That is ented. : Js : Q. - Now, I understand, you have. been a foreman of the Mt. aa aN Pettery Company elay hop for some: 18 . _ vears that correct? ? a e A. That is right. ~ ne . -. Q. During these years, you have had foremen’s meet- ings, usually addressed by Mr. Doll’ Pane fi ho. Tite @. These meine were held on Tuesday of ‘each week? . : A. For quite some time we have had those. Q. As I* understand it, rs these years you have ~~ ~usnally arrived at the plant and in your’ shop around 5:30 in the morning, is that correct? A. I.arrived at around 5:30 in the morning if the starting tinie' was 6 6’clock. Q. I see. Did vou, determine the evening before from some. source as to what the starting time would be for, the next day? A. We always knew ahead ot time when ins starting _ time would be. — Q.. Did you get that information, Mr. Starner,. or did you make that decision? - Did you get ~~: information: ° -~ ; 5 e Carl L. Starner - > 1065 - i 6 sole ° . .-from someone else or“did you mak®: the devisjon as to what time thecemployees should come in the next day? _& AS Well, it wasn’t always just -‘my own decision. Q?. But did you participate in it? A. Yes, sir. | ae -Q. Arid then you conveyed ‘that information to the employees, is ‘that, correct, the day before, so they would know! : eres Ne A. That is right. - | = ; Q. is this.man, Mr. Fitten, .Robert Fitten, an assist. ant of yours, that is, an ‘assistant foreman in the same shep of which you are foreman? re hone re A. That is right. " : (). “hat is the Mt. -Fitten who testified here yester’ ; day? . ie oe ™ A. That is right. . te he 3 : bag QY.- I thought you said yesterday that the dies, and so s -- forth, were turned op or ‘heated by you shortly-after you arrived ‘at work: at 9:30, for ‘instance, so that the same a would be ‘warm and ready for the people when they came. , eo work; is that' your testimony? | A. I said they were turned on ahead of timie, yes. ‘ Q)::. Dosyou oversee that work? , iB ia A. 1 check up to see if it is being ‘done. | ; Q.' Now, if an employee . worked until, or, his time 4 Jock dard shows-that he worked until 2:29, that is start 4 ing.at 6, he worked until 2:29, are yo familiar with the time that the comparf¥ would have paid him to? Mr. Cooper: An objection to the hypothetical question. > * es #@# o : The Master: .What you want to know is, in other ¢° * words, if the time elock cards ‘show the employee checked out at 2:29 how much time was ‘he credited with. Mr. Lamb: Okay, I will ask’ that. ; Mr. Nunneley: - All right. The Master: They apparently have no objection to that form, and that seems to get what you want. et 1066 | Carl L. Starner : . : So, wilP you answer that question ; if an employee | checks out at 2:29, how much time is he credited with. A. The time would be emeatel to: 2:15, if he rang out at 2:29 Pa ee .Q. (By Be. Lamb) That is right. “And if he rang ‘in at 5:46, from what time would the company compu ite his time? : @ oa ° A. His hours, you mean? - Q.. Yes. ah | A.’ 6 o’clock. . S Q. That is, if he had checked in at 5:46, they would — «ompute his time from 6 o’clock, is that aa testimony? ? -. A. That is right. Q. Now, I am not too certain on ybur. di t exam- ination that you said that the pails, scrapers and sponges were all charged to the jigger man, or that some of those articles may have been charged to finishers. What is-your testimony about that? A. The jigger man pays for those supplies. Q. _ And I think you said: that’ that had been the prge- tice until recently? : A. That has- always been ° the sein that these -charges be to the jigger men until during this period of time. Mr. Nunneley: . suit? * _ a - 6. A. The period of ‘time seoaboads “se . @ ' Q. Has the practice continued since the filing of the ~~ suit? | + The period of time involved in the.’ A. Do. I have to answer that? . * F - The Master: Yes, answer it. vaca has been no ob- ‘4 jectign. . 4 : Mr. Cooper: If the witness haiows. | The Master: If you know. Of course, obviously, if * A you don’t know, you can’t testify. ; ‘A. Why, not altogether. I should ad that it is the - § same. ae m =. . ‘ tay 7 a ’ . ‘ . - ‘ 7 . “Te. . f . 6 . : > Curl L. Staruct . » 1067 we The Master: I -beg ydur —— | A.. The charges are. not made exactly the same as ‘they * were before. ey’ _ The Master: How are they made. now, if you know? A. Well, if you méan each individual’s supply? Mr. Nunneley: What difference does it make, since the ‘ suit started, if they Made a change in the method of charging? ey 2 » The Master: 1 will find out ont of curiosity, it nothing ~ «lse, What they do tiow. It may have some slight bearing. A. You mean in regards to all these supplies, or cer- tain supplies? hee “ "The Master: In regards to the supplies you mentioned, -the pails, sponges, scrappers and scrapers? No, Ale serappers you don’t have to-worry about.. A... No charge on scrappers. The Master: The scrapers, pails, and sponges, A. The serapers and pails would be the jigger ‘man’s property. The sponges, are at the present time—that is what you mean—by the finishers. oe Q. (By ‘Mr. Lamb) Paid by the finisher? A, That is right. Q. And not by the jigger man? A. That is righi. Q. Now, you said that. the sponge is eharged to the employee on. an average ‘of -about 35 cents apiece, Do you have any notion of how much that sponge costs the company? ’ See, Ca Mr. Cooper: Object on the question “Of materiality, yeur Honor. sue Mr. Lamb: -It is highly material. a es The Master: Well, it is raised in the pleadings, and I will let you argue that in th¢ briefs. I will take the testimony without ruling on the effect to be given to it. - . A. Did I say that all the sponges cost 35 cents? - Mr. Lamb:: No, You said that they averaged 35 cents. The Master: You, at least, put some average on it. Mr. Lamb: Some as low as 16 cents? ' ¢ ’ a . ‘ x . P ° . ce ’ BN 1 Carl L. Starucr .. A. That is right: I didn’t say they were paying over 35 cents, though, did I? © Q. (By Mr. Lamb)~ No. i don’t want to mnia-state your direct testimony. I simply want—calling your at- tention to sponges that are charged to the employ ees at the rate of 35 cents, let us put it that wav— . A. Yes. Q. —Do you have any notion of what that sponge casts | the company? A. I am. pretty much impressed by the ‘people wlio come there with the sponges, that the sponges are costing the pottery most all the time more than actually what they are charging, and it ‘might be when sponges were easier to get in times past, and. some time back, that they might have been issuing them out at the same price, but I am sure most of the time, if there is any difference, the people are getting them for less, Mr.,Lamb: I-want to get not your impression, but— Mr. “Nunneley : You asked him. ’ Mr. Lamb: I am asking you whether you have any knowledge of the amount that the sponge, which is sold to the employee, or charged the employee for 35 cents much that a costs the company? | The Master: ou know how much that spofige costs? A. I would afl wouldn’t know about th Q. (By Mr. Lamb) I see. You don’ that that sponge costs less than 20 cents to the company ?- A. Not that I can verify. Q. I See. Did you bear Mr.: Doll testify -about - ‘the policy of mark-up on products, sold and charged to the employees? 2, : A. ‘1 did not. > Q. Calling your attention to cards which have been produced for Delbert Phillips, was: Detbert Phillips an : employee in the clay shop? — . “A. That is right. * * * : - The Master: It will be Exhibit 74, with a letter that will be given to it later. ~ Oe i EET RE a Cal LS freer | - 1069 Q. (By Mr. Lamb) I note. on that Thursday, the first Thursday marked on that‘ card, that Delbert Phillips re- ported in at 6:48, out at 12 0 ‘clock, reported in at noon: at 12:22 and out at night at 4:39. Will you tell us your computation under : ‘the company’s instructions, and method ‘of computation of the amount of time that Delbert . Phillips worked. on. that- _ Would you ‘like a — and pencil? 77s A. I would say 9 hours. ; ons Q. All right. Now, on the following day, which is Friday, on the time card:for the. period ending August 27, 1940, Mr. Phillips checked in in the morning at 6:53, out at 11:34, in at noon at 12:36 and out at night at 4:22° Will you, under the company’s method of computation, advise us the time worked by Mr. Phillips? *.* * - A. According to that #t would be 8 hours. * * * Q. And on the following day, Saturday, the employee checked in at 6:15 and out at 10 :55, is that. correct?” A. That is right. = 'Q. And the computation that ~~ make for the time ~ he worked on that day? - : A. It would be 414 hours. : Q. From 6:15 to 10:58 is 4% hours, the way you: com- pute his time, 4s that’ ‘correct? — | A. Yes, sir. ° Q. And that is what the company has ies his time for, is that correct? * *.° A. Yes, aa *.* ; Q. That is right. -Now, let’s go down one more and. skip Monday and take Tuesday. Mr. poe ee re- ported in at.7.:47, is that correct?. A. ‘That is correct. Q. And out at 10:12, is that correct? A. That is right. . > Q. , And you havé given him credit for how much time ‘worked? © ber We have given him credit for 2 hours, as ‘T can see there. x XN le 1070 Carl Le. Starner Q. There are a great many written notations around - that card. Are you able to advise us-what those indicate? _ A. No, I don’t believe I could, sir. “aera Q. I was asking you whether you knew, if you can, tell us that you saw Mr. Delbert Phillips on that Saturday morning, which is indicated by Exhibit 74-U? A. You asked me if I saw him? Q. Yes. a . s A. I couldn’t say whether I did or didn’t: _ Q.° Now, you have testified about some employees getting to work and punching the time clock and some- times talking about hunting or gossiping some place along that line’ Did you mean to imply that you saw Delbert Phillips do any of those things on that Saturday morning? _ ,A. May I explain there? I say I didri’t. see - Delbert Phillips on this particular Saturday morning, because the card indicates that he worked some other kind of work ‘the day before, which might have told him then to ‘report at the same job the néxt day. I am not sure. * * * Q. Now, you said‘ something about employees having strolled to their work from the time clock to their bench. Did you see Delbert Phillips strolling that day or did you see him running, or just what was he doing on that dav? Tiow was he conducting himself between the time clock and his work? A. On what day, sir? Q. On the Saturday indicated by Exhibit 74-U? The Master: He says he was in some other department ' that day. Perhaps you could pick out some day on which he was in this department. Q. (By Mr. Lamb) There .isn’t any question that he wea_in your department on the period ending September — 10, 1940, on Wednesday, the first Wednesday marked on that card, is there? | . A. That is right. Q. Being Exhibit 74W?t . ; A. That is right. 7 - Q. Tell me how he conducted himself between the time ’ ov . re, Loa vebdedrig eee NEE Carl 1. Staves ; 1071 clock and his working activities that day. Did he run or ‘did -he stroll? Going in, I mean. ° A.- I don’t think I could tell! you that, your Honor, , because I wouldn’t: remember what particular a: as to whether: he did that particular day or not. Q. And would you~bave-any knowledge of the time worked except by looking at the time cards? ~ | Mr. Cooper: Objection, if your Honor please, to the tarm of the question, which assumes that a look at the time ecards would .indicate the hours worked. ; Mr. Lamb: This is cross examjnation, and I'am asking him if he would have any knowledge of the time worked without looking— = . The Master: - I think it-is proper. I will take the an- swer. * e- *? A. Except from the time clock card, | don’t see how -» [ could, because I ‘couldw’t remember unless I go back and ehecked the amount of ware that he produced ‘that particular day, and had that to verify the fact he worked on that day, :but I haven’t got those records here in my hand. “ Q. (By Mr. land) ‘That is right. Now, supposing— can you tell us hew much time he worked on any day, except by looking at the time clock cards? A. From this standpoint here? From here? ‘The Master: Yes; right now. Can you tell right on the stand if any particular day were picked, could you tell how much time he worked without looking at the time. wi clock cards? A. Not from here I couldn’t, no. as . Q. (By Mr. Lamb) Well, even if you had some pro- duction ‘records they wouldn’t indicate the hours he worked, would they? In other words, some days he might - produce more if the material were there?- : A. That is right. . Q. Ahd the position, and so forth, and other days he would. produce less in the same amount of time? A. That is right: a ’ * 2 Cc ; 72 Carl LAtarwer Sa Q. So, I understand it, it would be your testimony : that only by looking at the time clock cards can you ‘tel! bow much time any employee in your department worked, is that correct? ; A. After the day has gone by sometimes——now, .you_ ~ are referring back there for quite some time. Q. That is right, 1 am referring to the period— A. At this late date that would be the only way I ¢an- recall, because 1 couldn't remember. _ Q. That is the purpose of keeping time ‘cards, isn't it! A. I wouldn’t know, to be sure, if that is what the company keeps time cards for. _ : _-Q. (By Mr. Lamb) As I understand it, your testimony ‘on the practices of the employees applies to those eim- ployees in the clay shop department -only? A. That is right, sir. GC Aiioy Q. That is correct, is it not? A. That is right. Q. And do you have anything to do with making com. putation of tlie time worked by the employees’ in the clay shop? . _A. So far as the cards are concerned? Y. Yes/.. 7 A. I have nothing to do with that. Q. That is done by some person in the office, J sup- pasef . ‘ . A. That is right. * * ° See (Time cards of Wells Clay were thereupon . marked, respectively. Exhibits 75, 75-A to 75-Z. ‘and 75-AA to 75-LL. inciusive.) * * * ~ Q. (By Mr. Lamb) Now, I assume that what you said in reference to Delbert Phillips is equally true as to the employee Wells Clay, particularly with reference to not being able to advise the particular ~pproach of any employee on any particular day between the time’ clock sind the place of his bench, ix that correct? * * * The Master: That is, you don’t know on any particn- . te planeta ie ast ah EES SSeS ES ne Ce Bee aN ‘anl LL. Ntariwes bilgas lar da, any given: diy, how a particular employee ap-- proached from the time clock, from punching in the time clock, to the place where he started his production work, for this period from 1938 to 19412 OAL Execeptias by indicating on.the time card. | suited think it would be the same oir both cards. é “The Master: Well, you don’t know whether Wells Clay, or any other cmployec in the department, on any given day during thi¢ period stopped at any point to talk _with any other work man. or just what they said on arly given morning, or how fast they walked from punching the time clock to the place where they started their. pro- duction work in your department. do you? — A. As right to the exact time. within the minute; I pos- sibly couldn’t tell, no. Q. (By Mr. Lamb) Weil: within five minutes, how can you tell? os A. Weill, 4d am there in the department, I can tell what ‘s the practice. | _ Q. 1 am asking: + you whether you can tell us. op any particular day as to any’ particular employee, how quickly _or slow!y the emp!oyee went between the time clock and the bench? A. Well, if he rings in at-7 minutes before the time to start, ‘T-eould —— ¢ a i , A. Well, this operation would take—by my own ex. perience, if I bring in— Q. (Interposing) I,am asking you now this particu- lar day. . ; A. I will tell you exactly how they do that, ring in, :say— ‘ i h © ‘ . Q. (By Mr. Lamb) This a . “i A. All right. ; ; Q. We are. talking about Tuesday, the first Tuesday listed on the card of 74-R? ' ta a ; 4 ra Ph yy ~ 1US2 ; Carl L. Starner The Master: It is obvious he doesn’t. recollect exactly. what .happened on that day. tee Mr. Lamb: If he will say he doesn’t recollect, O. °K. Mr. Nunneley: The witness -has. repeatedly said he couldn’t tell you what ‘happened that day. : - The Master: He says he can only tell from, his gen- eral experience what he did. ~- * Q.* (By Mr. Lamb) Didn’t you say he started’ work at 2:45 that day?~ | , A. I said that. ho ae are +4 » QT thought you did.,-Now, the day before he* started work, or he punched the time clock at 2:35, and what time did the company give him:credit for working, reporting in | to work that’morning, 2:45 again? A. 2:45. Q. Now, do *you know anything that he didn’t do on’ the day that he.was credited with working at 2:45 on Monday that_he did on Tuesday that took him the éxtra 4 minutes? : The Master: . You mean based on actual. récollection?, Mr. Lamb:. Of course. . cs . The Master: . Or based upon, inference from.his ex- perience ?. ; bate - Mr. Lamb: Or based on the cards. “es la A. I am interpreting the card by: my own observa- tion. I can’t say T seen him do anything that particular. morning. _ . , PF ee Q. Can you tell me whether there was anything dis- tinguished the Monday from the Tuesday when he re- . ported in at 2:35 on Monday and 2:31'or Tuesday, that you should have given him a starting time as of the following quarter hour each day? Was.there any physical .act that he didn’t do one day that he did‘on the other? The Master: I think you will have to state whether you mean based on actual recollection or whether yon mean based upon observation and gerieral experience? Mr. Lamb: Let him answer it any way he can: The Master: -O, K., then. a ,. * . * % Ea ea ee Car L. Starner - — 1083 ee | . Mr. Lamb: What this particular employee did is what ‘ the question is, and ‘not, what he may. have done in his ‘expérience twenty years’ ago. The Master: In other words, what you want to know is if he has any actual, definite recollection what that muployee did on the afternogn he started to work or _ punched-in at 2:31, that he didn’t do when he punched. in at 2:35, and nof based upon-an inference from experience. ‘ Do.you have any definite recollection, sitting on the stand there, what he did or didn’t do that day? A. I have no recollection of that, no. s °Q. (By Mr. Lamb) Can I ask you, Mr. * Starner,’ whether you are able to advise us that, irrespective of which end pf your department an employee is in or ir- respective 6f the bench to which he might be assigned or its location, or irrespective of what hour of the day he comes in, whether that employee is not credited on the company’s computation, as a company policy, with hav- | ing worked from the succeeding quarter hour period? Do: I: correctly state the company policy? — | The Mastér: Read the question back. A. I don’t know if T have got that all clear. : _ {Question read.) I oe _ A. We couldn’t constantly tell the people who com- "putes the time on these cards that a. fellow is working at the one end of the department or the other and compute them -accordingly. There has to be a general computation of these cards. _ . ee Q. .(By Mr. Lamb) Now can you answer the ques- _ tion? What is the company’s policy. wjth respect to credit- ing people with time worked froin the subsequent quarter hour period? Isn’t that the company policy A. If IT understand the question: correctly, it is. - Q. And isn’t it a company policy that gvhen a man checks out, that he is credited with having worked from the preceding quarter hour? © : - The Master: Or to the preceding quarter hour. Mr. Lamb: .Yes, to the preceding quarter hour. o 1084 . > Carl L. Starner ’ A. To the preceding quarter hour, that is right. ‘Q. ‘That is true irrespective of the distance from a time clock or irrespective of the bench location on which an employee might be working,. or irrespective of any other factor? When an employee reports in, he is paid and his time is computed to the succeeding quarter hour, and when he'checks out his tig is computed from the ‘ succeeding quarter hour. , The Master: I think you have the ‘*from”’ and . ol turned around. A. Yes, turned around. . The Master: You mean his time is competed from the succeeding. quarter hour when he checks in, and to the preceding quarter hour when he checks out? A. That is right. ; : Mr. Lamb: . Yes, that is right. _ Q. Is that correct? cmc 2 4 A. That is correct. - ‘Q. That is the company policy? A. That-is right. ‘ Q. Irrespective of whether the employee is located? A. And: that is applying to the employees in our de. partment we are speaking of. Q: You are speaking of the employees—in all your testimony, you want it to apply only to the employees in - the clay shop? vision. Mr. Lamh: ©. K., that is all. ee Re-Direct Examination By Mr. Nunneley: Q. And likewise that is a poljcy irrespective of whether - he actually starts:to workton that succeeding quarter hour or not? : A. That is right. He may not. get started. Q. And likewise his stopping time, if he actually stapped before, if he doesn’t punch out until after a cer- A. Only the employees over which I have direct super- en Carl L. Starmere 10S. tain quarter hour, lie is credited to it in auring the time! ; ; A. ‘That is exactly so. ‘The Master:.. You’ have some hourly workers in your departinent over there, | believe? y. (By Mr. Nunneley) ‘Are there any hourly workers -in your department? The Master: Employees that work on a straight hourly basis. R nae AL. We don't— . The Master.(Interposing) Or i think M& Fittongsaid so yesterday. — ‘\ Mr. Nunneley: Men who: run the oy TY : A. The fellows running the machines,*yes, they are ‘hourly workers; fellows running the automatic machines. The. Master: Do-you see to, it that they work right up to the last minute that the shift goes in? - ‘: ? aA. Do I see to tt that they do? The Master: Yes. A. Quite often we yop as much as ten’ minutes before the time allotted for us to quit. 7 Re Cross E camination . ' By Mr. Lamb: , P Q. Do you know the names Qi number of hourly em- ployees in your department? sles iles . ” A. I couldn’t from that period give you the, names, no. Q. (By Mr. Lamb) Of any of them for 1941? ’ A. I don’t believe I could. Q. For1940? #3. . : . A. I couldn't absolutely give you the names of them. °Q. Have. they changed, you mean? weds A . We hayen’t had the same fellows on that machine all the time. 2 The Master: Have you changed all of the men so that nere of the men working in April, 1941, are now working on the machine, if you can recall? = : A. Tt seems to me we have changed them all. eal L086 Charles BE. Doll Mr. Cooper: Your Honor wiJl recall that our: cross- examination of Mr. Charles E. Doll, Sr., was suspended at the earlier hearings until such time as the plaintiff ' ‘Rested their case, and we would like to recall Mr. Charles EK. Doll, Sr., at this time for the purpose of cross-examina- tion. . CHARLES E. DOLL, was thereupon recalled as a wit. , ness, and having been previcusiy duly sworn, testified . Turther as follows: . Cross Examination 7 By Mr. Cooper: Q. You are the general-manager of the Mt. Clemens ; Pottery Company, | believe, Mr. _ A. I am. | . Q. How long have you had that capacity? Mr. Lamb: Do I understand that you say ‘yoy are calling him for’ cross-examination? ae, Mr. Cooper: Yes. Mr. Lamb: I make an objection to it being crogs- examination.* °° | aa : The Master: 1 don't think I will rule on it until such time as a leading questicn is asked which would be ob- jectionable, and if it gets to be an issue then 1 will decide it at that time, but I won't decide it at the present time because I. don’t know whether there will be ‘any occasion to decide the question. : ce . Q. (By Mr. Cooper) How long .have you been gen- — _ eral-manager of the Mt. Clemens Pottery Company, Mr. Doll? °* A. 28 years. , * " Q. You have been general-manager ever since the or- . ganization of that company? — A. Yes, sir, I built the original plant and have had complete charge of it ever since. : , - ; ¢ ® _ ’ oe aa 7 a” . . . ¢ - - 4 ° . $ ' ° - * fH Q. Do you spend a consideravie amount of time out in the plant? . , ; es j “A. More of my time is spent on the plant than it is in the office.’ | Q. And are you familiar with the, various departments of the plant, and what operations are performed in each department? 2 Seay Q. I would like to request you, sir, with reference to. Exhibit 20-A, to explain to the court the various ‘depart- ments invoived in the plant, and what is done in each de- rr : : A. Exhibit 30-A is a ground plan ‘of the plant. It shows on the south side a railroad siding over which our - the sectian of the plant specified as ‘‘Clay Bins.”’ The materials are not’ all el:ys, but nevertheless for general ‘purpose the storing arca of these raw materials is desig- nated as the ‘Clay Bins."* | ~ At this partienlar point the materials are made up in pre-determined composition, fed into the plunger mills in the slip house where they are mixed with water, and ¢ after varying processes in the®slip house they are pumped through the filter presses into a plastic form.” These plasti« forms are afterwards further processed through pug mills.which p!aces the mixture in a putty- ‘PkeJeondition to enable it to be formed on the molds. This ‘clav is then transported to the various clay-form- ing machines, some of whieh are— _Q. (Interposing) Excuse me, Mr. Doll. I would like to ask whether or not the operations you have described Charles. E. Doll," 1us7 * raw materials come in in leaded ears and are placed at’ -up to this point are all performed in what is referred to_ ‘as the slip. house or slip department? ~A. They’ are. When the clay leaves the slip depart- ment it ing it on the molds. Jt goes then to the section of the plant &enerally designated as ‘‘clay shop.” and, in that area it 18 used on what we generally designate still at this time as hand-operated jiggers. They are really power _ machines, but they are operated by a crew of three people, v ‘s-in.the form.t4 be used in applying it and form- - ® > 6 . ' 1088 . Charles BE. Doll consisting of a jigger man, batter-out and finisher. The jigger man—the batter-out, rather, forms, places the clay on the mold, passes it to the jigger man who in turn jig- gers it or revolves it in a machine under a tool which forms a piece of ware by the face of the mold forming. the face of the ‘article and the tool under which it is re. volving shaping the hack. _ 2 ae {t then passes through the mangle which is. simply a series of shelves operated.on chain conveyors which pass through the mangle, circulating among steam’ coils, or in other sections ‘circulating through .a hot-air duct, the intent being that when the product reaches tye other end . . Of the mangle it is sufficiently dried and hardened to be lifted from the mold by the finisher without being dis. torted. It is then the finisher’s job to smooth “off the rough edges and sponge off. the face of the ware, remove any slight imperfections that may have occurred in the processing. . ‘Q. Could you tell:me; Mr. Doll, about how long that, or those operations that vou have déscribed, consumes? _ A. It will'take, according to.the size and the shape of ' the article, from an hour to an hour and a half in going through under the machines. We have at other ‘places . ‘very large units which we caJ] automatic. jiggering ma-’ . chines, in which these same operations are done auto- matically by these machines. This is a later development, and at the present time.the plant is operating under - some of both processes. «= ' In the large~machines the principles involved are ex: actly the same, although the operations are automatically . done, except in the case T just described, by being per-*_; . formed by hand labor. ae After this ware has gone through: the finishing process it is then ready to be taken to the loading stations to be. put into saggers -and loaded on the cars for tre first- burning... / ° . oa _Q. Is that at the point on the exhibit indicated ‘*bisque ear loading?”’ . ; | A. No, it is taken to the section marked ‘‘bisque car ° . : The ware that is taken out of the saggers at the bisque unloading station goes to the section of thé plant shown’ on the plan as a dipping department. This is a combina-~ tion department in which both the brushing and the gip- ping or glazing are done. The Master: Pardon me. What is the appearance ‘of the ware after it comes out of the bisque kilns? Is it hard by rough and finish? ; er A. That is correct. The bisque ware hasits complete fired strength, but it has an unglazed surface, and-it*is porous, partly porous. As this ware comes through from the bisque kilns, it frequently has little rough clay particles or portions of sand, things. of that kind, on it. And, before the glaze can be applied, it‘has to be brushed. Part of this brushing is done by hand brushes and part of it is done by passing the ware throngh machine op- erated brushes which clean the particles off, and this work is done by people known as brushers. After it has been brushed, it goes to the dippers, hand dippers or the glazing machines. In duys gone by, all this ware was dipped by. hand; . that is, each piece individual'y was held by. the dipper and immersed. into » tub of liquid glaze. However, that process has been largely done away with. There is very little hand dipping done now, and the majority of the ware goes to glazing machines. | ‘When it is placed in these glazing. machines, which con- . sist primarily of large circular tables on which the pieces © of ware revolve on power-operated spindles, and as this table revolves, these turning spindles pass through booths in which there are spray guns that are spraying by means of air pressure the glaze on to beth the face and the ‘back of the pieces of ware. | As the ware comes through this glazing’ operation in the dipping department, it moves to the north to the area marked on the plan as the glost sagger fillers. At that point—_ Phe . ’ > in. # e >» . : q ° ‘ , Charl s kK. fio ‘ ph Mr. Cooper: Pardon me. Will you mark this, please? (A floor pla was thereupon marked Defendant's Exhibit 76, by the reporter.) - - Q (By Mr. Cooper) I show you, Mr. Doll, a docu- ment which has been’ marked for identification as Ex- hibit 76 and ask you if you can identify it (handing ex- hibit to witness)? A. This is a-floor-plan of the glost loading and un. loading system showing its connections as well into the glost ware rooms with the chipping and selecting belts of that department. - ? - Q. Does it show, in general, the same outline as to the’ glost svstem as appears on Exhibit 30-A, except fpr greater detail? ~ - A. Well, the detai! shown on Exhibit 76 is equipment that is installed in the areg on the master plan shown as the lost car loading, glost car fillers-—— - The Master: Glost sagger. fillers. A. Glost sagger fillers, glost unloading. ; Mr. Lamb: The master plan you are referring to~ is Exhibit 30-A. I guess the record can. show that. The Master; Yes. Aare oe A. And chippers and selectors. ; Q. (By Mr. Cooper) Can yor say, Mr. Doll, whether “or not Exhibit .76 is an accurate and sealed drawing of the area you have just described? * ° ° , | A. °T can so identify it}afdl can, identify the equip ment because I designed and built it. °-* ° The Master: I think I will admit the exhibit. I don't think this witriess fs competent. to testify that it is a scaled drawing, because I think only the man that drew it td\ scale can. testify. to that, but as to the general: lo- cation and features of the equipment shown here, he is competent to testify to that. ° ° °. Mr. Lamb: And the record shows an objection to the * admission? The Master: All right, I think it already does, but it does now. [One : ee | 4 ‘harles EB, Doll A. Referring to Exhibit Na. 76 as another example’ “of deseribing the-process when we arrive at the glost sagger fillers, this particular drawing shows that *thére is a conveyor on the outside’ of gihe drawirig on which the saggers, the ¢mpty saggers are flowing on a con: veyor belt. There is an area just to the north of this par- ticular conveyor belt where there dre a series of sagger- — filling stations indicated on the drawing by the diagonal. paral..! lines, each of which represents a station in which a girl stands, and as these saggers are deflected from the conveyor belt into their loading stations, the girls proceed to fill the ware into the saggers from shelves byilt in their stations into’ which the ware has-been placed by,men who take it from the trucks as it came from thé dipping’ department and put it into the stations as the girls need it. 7 As each girl fills her sagger she discharges it on to t@ next parallel conveyor belt to the north. The. saggers then flow to the west of that particular conveyor belt where they make a turn on a circular’ belt at the west — end and start to flow in an easterly di sagger-| ng conveyor belt. , As they flow down this belt the man whose duty it is rection on. the to lead the saggers on to the cars; takes them off of | this belt as they flow by and stacks them on to the cars which are slowly moving forward on ‘what is shown as the Noading track. . ie As each sagger is removed from the belt to go on the ears th t' continues in an easterly direction to a sec- tion known as the unloading track, where men, in turn, ‘take the saggers off of the cars.that have been fired and place them on to this:same conveyor belt. They continue to flow in an easterly direction, then turn south, and ~ again west, and at the point. where the saggers tufn west we have the sagger-unloading point. Ae ie The saggers continue to flow by; the ware that is’ in . them is taken out by men and boys and placed on another’ conveyor belt running west. This conveyor belt carries the- 4 2 . e e i. ” . a ‘+ e s . « ‘i 7% . . ee tae € Ad . > °. “3 e . . o : G A . odes - - ‘ ® . : a ~— a . * ‘ ‘ears when it goes into the kiln? - A. The ware is in the saggers, Sand the none are stacked: on the car, one above the other. Mr. Lamb: I see. ~ A. After-the ware has gone through thi chipping and selecting process, it is then ready to go either. direct to the packing department if it is going: to, be shipped out as undecorated ware; or if it is going to have a dec- oration applied, it is ready to go to the decorating neta ment. If the ware is to be shipped , vut ‘undecorated, it -is trucked across—it leaves the main building and is trucked across the south siding and into the’ packing building, which is also a storage building for packed goods, which is a. separate building located on the south side of the south siding. The ware is packed in cartons in that build- ing, stored in that building if it is not intended for im- mediate shipment; or placed in stock piles from which orders are filled which are loaded by conveyors directly | into box cars that are placed on a siding between the main building and the packing storage building. ‘ And the ware that goes into the decorating depart- ment flows into the area shown on the master plan—what did-von say it wast ¢ ( Lark Ss KE. Doil i wd The’Master: Exhibit 30-A. : igus A, Exhibit 30-A, as decorating. Now, im this depart- ment we have decorators engaged primarily in two opera-. tions, one the application of decaleomania to, the. ware, which in our particular case is mainly’ floral decorations of some kind “or another. Mr. Cooper: is Exhibit 60 an example of decalcomania. © A. Exhibit GO is a sheet of deealeomania such as. is used in deeoratime. the ware. Mr. Cooper: Would you please mark this next exhibit? - (A sheet of decalcomanias was then marked Ex- hibit 77.) -¢ fe connection with the work in the decaleomania nt of the decorating department, Mr. Doll, can you de- scribe the operations connected: with the large transfer sheets such as vou have here, and its application to a particular piece of ware? — A. Theseeshects of transfers or decaleomania, are lith- ographed on duplex paper, what is known as duplex pa- per. The duplex paper consists of a backing sheet of fairly heavy paper and a very. thin. tissue sheet super- imposed upon that. _ | an _- The first part of the operation is for irls to strip these sheets. That is, they separate the thin tissue sheet ‘som the backing-sheet, as vou can see here. That has to be very carefully done, but you ean without damaging : pull thi§ thin tissue sheet from the backing sheet. After the girls separate and place together, one on top of the other, a number of. these thin decaleomania sheets, and then they ptoceed to cut them into sections or blocks, as we call them. -similaf to what I have in my hand as | Exhibit 77. oF These Mocks consist of various sizes.of sprays, due to. the fact that each particular article, that is, each size. plate, or each cup or a certain kind of cup or a arti- cular saucer has to. have a spray designed particalarly to fit around the rim of that particular. article so that - “they are cut/into blocks and given to them as they need A - 1100 ; Charles B. Doll them for whatever partic ular article a girl may te work- ing on at that time. The operator has ware adjacent—the decalcomania operator has ware adjacent to her bench, and the first thing she does is to place a coat of size or varnish which she applies with a brush to the parts of the article to be decorated where the decalcomania isto be applied. She lets this ware stand on her bench a sufficient length of time for the varnish. to harden to a tacky stage, and then she cuts out as she requires from these block prints | '- the pieces that she needs immediately to decorate the articles that she -has previously varnished. ° After placing these decalcomania sprays on the var- nished area, the piece of ware, she takés another brush which has been dipped in water, and rubs on the reverse side of the paper so as to get the ‘decaleomania color thoroughly adhering to the piece of ware. -Q. Pardon me, sir. Do you refer now to Exhibit 77, . the piece of paper? A.- 77, yes. . Q. Could you show which side is placed against the piece of ware? A. The lithograph or colored side is placed against the piece of ware. After rubbing that decoration on thoroughly she immerses the piece of ware into water, ° -floats' the paper off the back, and leaves the pattern in its . color from, adhering to the ‘piece of ware. She places the ware, then, on her rack behind her bench for drying, and _ after that ware has set ‘a sufficient length of time to be - safely dry it is ready to either go to the decorating kiln, if no further: processing is to be applied to it, or if. there are other parts of decorations to. be added, it goes to the ._ people doing that particular line of work, or the people come to the -racks of decorative ware, and may—and in the case of the pattern I am showing here, proceed ‘to place a gold line on the edge of all the pieces that have previously been decalcomaniaed. The major: portion of our decorating is done by either _the décalcomania process or by the application of gold~ Chart s Is. Doll 11d and color, by people who apply it with brushes ‘for finish- ing off the design of the finished decoration. The ware then is trucked to the decorating kilns which are shown in the north part of the decorating department by the lines on the print showing the outline of the kilns, and while they are much smaller, tliey are shown similar tu what the bisque and glost kilns are. -Q. On Exhibit 30-A, those decorating kilns are below. the word ‘*glost”’ “ey nl??? A.. That is correct, below the glost aaalins system, south of the glost unloading system.’ ‘The ware goes into these kilns, is _placed’ on cars, goes into these decorating kilns on the west end, comes out on the east end. It is a short firing cycle through these kilns, being about 8 hours, and after emerging from these kilns it is again re and finally t: ruckag to the packing department for packing into cartons. ’ The Master: These decaleomania sheef@, you don’t make them in-vour plant; you buy them?. “AL ONG: the decalcomania sheets are printed for us by American Manufacturers. There are two parts of the gen- eral floor plan, No, .30-A, which shows on the south side of the trant the hoiler and engine room. Next to that the sagger department in which the saggers are made for Leth the bisque and the-glost cars. These saggers have ‘only limited fife. They deteriorate under the’ continuous burning, and finally have to he destroyed and replaced. The Master: What material are those made out of? - A. They are made of a composition of fire clays tot _ gether with a gronnd-un mixture of some of ‘the old sag- gers. Woe are .able to: reclaim nart of the old saggers by breaking them up and regrinding them and using a certain pereentage of it in afresh mix. Also next to the sagger department comes the head- quarters or maintenance department. Next to that the glaze room in which the materials are stored.that enter into the ¢laze. These. materials are weighed into hatches as needed and placed in the revolving pebble mills. These mills consist. of revolving evlinders into which. the dry «es 11% Charles BK. Doll materials are- placed, water is added, and inside the mills there is quite a quantity of flint pebbles. The grinding is- done by the mills slowly revolving and the pebbles keep falling over each other as the mills revolve, and in that way the material that has been placed in the mills is -re- duced ‘down to the necessary fineness. ae . At the extreme east end of the plant there’is the office building. In this office building is located one set of toilet and cloak rooms for men and women, for factory use, and on the second floor is a cafeteria. To the north of the glost kiln departments are. another series of toilet and cloak rooms for mien and women, and at tlie extrenie west end of the plant is a section msrked on the plan as. “‘court,’’ in which is located the sprinkler tower. The top of this tower is the water tank. . Q. I think you perhaps mentioned the boiler and en- gine room, Mr. Doll? : A. I did. Q. And;can you state what’ operation is performed hy the boiler man? ; . , A. In the boiler room we have thrge boilers. The func- tion of our boilers is almost 100 per cent the supplying of steam for drying and other minor operations around the plant. ae: 3 . Next to the boilers is an engine room in which we have a generator and a stand-by engine. The plant is operated primarily with Edison current and we only operate the engine room in case of extreme emergency or .breakdown of the Edison power, in. which case our engine room could supply enough current to keep the kilns in operation on a temporary basis. - During the° winter season and during the normal, the five days operation of the plant, even in the sunimer, the boilers are kept in operation on a 24-hour basis, with men working on eight-hour shifts. Each one of: the boiler fire- men is completely in charge of the boilers and held strictly responsible for the boilers from his starting time until his / Stopping time, when the man following him takes over the responsibility at his starting time. - ( Jay (i s I. Doll . ] hi) Q. By the way, sir, do those boilers operate with coal or oil? ie A. ‘The boilers are operated with coal. The kilns are ¢ tired -with oil, ; | , Q. 1 think you also mentioned yesterday, Mr. Doll, the- job of the pressmen in the slip house. Could you state just ‘a little more specifically what the’pressmen’do? - A. Well, both the charging of the mills for the slip _ department and the operating of the filtering presses through which this slip is pumped is customarily done on ‘a 24-hour basis. The pumps supplying the presses, of _ course constantly pumping slips into the presses, and this | slip that is being pumped into the presses has to be re- placed with fresh material coming from the charge mills into which the men are ‘supplying the material. Q. Is that slip simply liquid clay? 5 AG A. - That is a combination of the mixture of all mate- rials with water. These men also operate on an eight- hour shift basis. rs ; . Q. How many shifis a-day, Mr. Doil?. ° , A. Three shifts a day. Atd each shift is working anff responsible for and completely in charge of the duties of that particular. shift until the next shift takes over. Q. How many days a’week do they work there, Mr. Doll? ; ies ; c A. Five days. . Re e, wry ©. And. what is their basis of compensation? A. The basis of compensation is the dozens produced by the clay department’ from the clay that they have supplied to the elay -departrent. Q. Then does the amount that a pressman receives for a day’s work depend on the amount of material which is turned out on his shift? ; : A. Directiy. In other words, the whole process is con- tinuous. If they did not prepare the clay, the clay shop ~ eouldn’t make the dozens, and untess the clay shop pro- duced the dozens, these men couldn’t. make the presses, ‘heeause there would he no demand for them. Af you will notice in the description of the process as | See [ Bos "+ 3. Charles F. Dull Le ae 1 have .tried te. give it to you, that it is practically con- tinuous from one end to the other. That is; from the raw materia! stage, as the ware is made, it is a constant flow . Tight through to the ¢ars in which ; finally loaded. . / __ The Master: ) Because ot rary thd: production ‘that any department ean turi out is liniited not only by their own ability and efforts, but also by what t le other departments e i turn out?” Sy a ae A. There is a direct inter- sittin . o (). (By Mr. -CGooper) How -many \men .work on each - oe shift m this, pressmen division in the blip house? A. There are two mill chargers and two pressmen. Q. And whether or not the amount of compensation depends upon the amount of .work that. the entire ow. turns out during the eight- hour shift? A._ It does. — : Q: Could you state, Mr. Boll, whether or not ‘the glost belt system, as vou have described ‘it, is a common ‘feature * in the pottery industry? ut Py s " ; | . And there arPaiso, believe, certain dipping ma- chines in the dipping oat sey. pre ‘ A. Thé spray glazing’ machines were a development : that’ started with the first one going into commercial pro- duction in 1939, with. the final instdaltation of a fourth unit in about July, 1941. Your No, 2 and 3.units came in be- ° tween. Neen ae Q. I believe there has been some discussion as to the location in the plant of various witnesses who have ‘testi- fied here went on their job. I don’t believe: that that is complete, however. Can you ‘show on Exhibit 30-A, Mr. Doll, the location within. the plant where Ernest Trom- bley’s work station was located?” — | A. That is Earl Trombley? . Q. Earl Trombley? - Ms A. Earl Trombley worked in this area shown on Ex- ‘hibit 30-A as glost sagger fillers. Tee. Q. Did Steve Anderson and Lillian Socia both - work in the-area indicated on Exhibit 30-A as dipping? A.: That is correct. Poe aan ae ; -Q. Would they have any pagticular fixed station ‘throughout the period of two or three years, or would. their work take them to various places within the department 1: A. It was-necessary for them to mave to different — places in the department. ~ pene . _. Q. And where, if you can show pn Exhibit 30-A, would .*. [ee Charles E. Doll Nicholas Dacko work during that portion of the time that he worked as a glost unloader? ~~ . _ A. Nicholas Dacko worked in the area iil on Ex- hibit 30- -A.as glost unloading. ‘I think he als} testified that at one time he was a—some months was grinding bats, in -\.. which éage he worked in the sagger department,/* Mr. Cooper: 1 offer in evidence, if the court. plonse, Exhibit 77. That is the decal transfer sheet. : The Master: Any o¥¥ection? Mr. Lamb: No objection. The Master: Admitted. _ 9 Q. (By Mr. Cooper) Before you built the ek of the Mt. Clemens Pottery Company, Mr. Dojl, did you have * . experience in other. potteries? A. Yes. I have been connected with potteries since I. was 17. Q. What, in a general way, was the ature of your ‘prior experience in the pottery industry? A. Well, I have been; in my years of experience, -office boy, foreman, ‘superintendent; sales’ -manager, and general manager. wr Q. Since assuming the management of the Mt. Clemens Pottery Company, have you retained the familiarity with the general practices in. the pottery industry? . A. I. Have. ; Q. By the way, is there. any particular feature of the- -. pottery industry which facilitates obtaining familiarity . with the general practices? A. Well, it is comparatively simple to know what the ‘industry in general is doing, due.to the fact that about 80 odd per cent of it-operates inder a—well, about 80 odd per cent of it are plants that are members of the United . States Potters Association. This association for the bene- fit of its members, conducts ‘negotiations with a national brotherhodd- of operative potters, and their labor agree- ments. are made with that organization and are uniform ay thronghout the plants of the association. - Q. Does your company belong. to this association? A. We do not. e Charles E..Doll 6. 17 \. ‘By the way, is the union that you speak, of affiliated’ with the A. F. of L. or the C10? o A.. They are an A. F. of L. affiliation. -ve - Q. You said, I, think, that some 80 or 88 per cent of the industry is represerted in this association that you speak of? ar A. It is something over 80 per cent. Q. By the. way, what percentage of the dinnerware . production of the pottery is represented by the Mt. Clem- . - ens Qottery Company's production? -y/ A. About 12 per cent... - wf _ Q..Can you state, Mr. Doll, with reference to this col-- lective bargaining agreement that you spoke of, whether - there is a general custom in the industry as to computing hours worked, and if so what it is? | | Mr. Lamb: Objection. As I understand it, this com- pany isn’t even-‘a participant in that. association. -. Mr. Cooper: The custom’ is nevertheless aterial, your -honor. It doesn’t mean that they don/t follow the same customs, or that they do. : : A Mr. Lamb: There is no showing that they do. The Master: Well, if he knows what the practice is in other potteries, I will take it as evidence. One citation ‘ was given here, or a quotation from a wage and hour opinion, and I think according to my recollection, Mr. Lamb quoted it at the time and stated that the practice and conditions prevailing in other ‘plants, or in plants in general in the industry, would have some bearing upon the interpretation of the wage and hour act. I do not sup- pose it would be conclusive, but I will take it as evidence: A. Will you read the question! (Question read.) ~ A. To my knowledge, in the plants that we have re- ferred to, the method of computing hours is rather slip- | shod. These plants are built as a rule in the open with numerous doors around them, and in fact I think that °. our—I know: that our plant is the only plant in the in- dustry that, is surrounded by an industrial fence,. and where employees all enter and leave from the one en- ~ Se ° , & 11 tie. aeeres E. Bolt trance. The eustomary aie in the other potteries is to allow the piecework employees to enter and leave at-- will through almost any doorway or entrance that there Imay be around tlie outside of the plants. Time clocks are “used very little and only for hourly working operators. The balance, the piecework operators’ time is generally kept by the foreman in the departments, noting down each day the number of hours that the employee claims to. have worked. The Master: Are most of your conipeting potteries : located in Ohio? ‘ As They are located in ihe Ohio section, that is in. the - eastern Ohio section, in and somewhat adjacent to East Liverpool, and you will find that the custom prevailing in one is pretty much followed out by the others. ~ The Master: In the pottery business, is fhe business concentrated in the hands of a few large potteries, or are there a great many small units? | _ A. From the standpoint of the sales volume, the large part of the total sales volume would be perhaps in about five companies. ‘The largest one of those companies, . though, has about half a dozen. plants, scattered, plants, -. and then there are a number’ of smaller concerns scattered throughont that general area of Ohio. There is very little diunerware production in any other part of the United States, outside of the one plant in Michigan. Q. (By Mr. Cooper): By the way, howgtoes the plant ef the Mt. Clemens Pottery Company compare in size with the Ohio plants that you speak of? A. Well, from a standpoint of an individual produc- ing unit, we have the largest individua! prodiicing unit in the country... There is one company whose total volume of business is larger than ours, but their output is di- vided into about five plants. ) Q. Going back to the method generally employed in the industry as you have described it in computing hours... worked, can you say, Mr. Doll, whether er not that practice and that. #vstem is supported hy practices under: the col- +, lective agreement to which vou referred? oy Charles kK: Poll ‘ | : 1109 ° (Objection overruled.) ° ° * Moe aw! ‘A. I am very well acquainted with the other manu-- facturers and learn. of their canditions and what they are doing, by visits that I have made to their plants, by con- versatians with the owners or the operators, and also by the fact that we receive the copies of their agreements whenever they are made, and know what is provided for in these agreements. One of the clauses in these agree- os ments is that they— a? -Mr. Lamb: An objection. ‘If-he is going to discuss a clause, we should. at least have it. ° * * ceed Thé Master: I think it is a proper subject for expert testimony. Go ahead. * * * | ee A. The potteries operating. under an agreement with the National Brotherhood of Operating Potteries, can in- . dividually only install time clocks through an agreement entered“into between the’ individual. plant and the local - operating within that plant. Mr. Lamb: I ask that the answer be stricken. The Master: I will let it stand. Fe (By Mr. Cooper) Whether or noty if you can say, a considerable, portion of-the industry represented under this collective agreement doés not use time clocks? Mr. Lamb: Objection. The Master: Overruled. Mr. Lamb: Unless he names the companjes. -A.. To my knowledge, time clocks are ‘very little used ‘in these plants, except for a limited number of day wage workers. nas et ‘ piss Q. (By Mr. Cooper) By the way, how.did you happen. ‘ ++ install time clocks ‘at the pottery company, Mr. Doll? _. Mr. Lamb:. Objection. See The Master: Overruled. : eae _ A. Many years ago wé had time clocks for a few hourly workers, but we did not have pieceworkers on time cloeks. We first put all workers on time clocks about 1933 or along in that period when NRA first came into existence. . How many ¢locks were installed? . | A. The first clocks—well, hack at the time that we only & V0 Charles BE. Doll » had the hourly workers on the time clock there was simply. one clock in the whole plant. .After we put all employees _ on time clocks about 1933, we installed clocks A and B’ shown on ‘Exhibit : ‘B30-A. . 5 They are Sot. “Clock A is an isthniiitonal, operat: ing on an entirely different mechanism than clock B, which is a Stromberg electric. . Q. At the time the time clocks were installed back - about 1933, was a method set up to compute the number — of hours an employee had worked? A. Yes, a method was set up at that time.: Q. Did you have sométhing to do, Mr. Doll, with de- vising that method? A. I did. oe Q. Can vou describe what the system. is,, and how it was set up? A. Well, the system that was set up at that time is the © same system that has been in. operation ever since; that is that the record of attendance of employees was to be recorded an ‘the time clocks, that theshours they actually worked were to be entered on the cards daily for the bene- fit of office records as well-.as for.the benefit of. the em- ployees knowing the time that had heen charged to them. Q. Was any period of time fixed with reference to when an “employ ee could enter the plant — punch | in in- the morning? A. The original rule was that the time clocks would be open for 14 minutes before the starting period. °° ° Q. ( By Mr. Cooper) Has that same rule been followed ever since down throngh the period involved here? ‘A. It has.- Q. By the way, before the time clocks were installed, and this system set up, was there a limitation as to the time when a piecework: employee could enter the plant in ' the morning? A. No, there was not. Q. May T ask, Mr. Doll, how you adopted that 14-min- ute interval? er. - rule. Charles Bb. Dall 1111 Mr. Lamb: Objection. ‘he Master: Overruled. A. As I previously testified, I. have been in the busi- > ness, actively engaged in manufacturing or supervising. __—manufacturing, for many yéars. I wes entirely familiar with the habits, the reasoning, and the general custom of employees as to coming to work, and also entirely familiar with the time element required for the average person to get himself or herself ready for work. Consequently, in adopting the 14-minute period as reasonable, or as a maximum period that people could utilize to get them- selves-ready for work, T was following a knowledge of the actual conditions involved together with an understanding — of human nature-and the application of a common sense © Q.. Was.that the same 14 minutes on the clock for all the employees, or were there different 14-mjnute periods? A. Well, there would be a 14-minute period before whatever the starting time might happen-to be in the de- partment, and of course, the starting time was different - -in the different departments. © a Q. And there would bean allowance of 14 -minutes before the starting time in the employee’s particular de- partment, is that correct? 7° A. That is correct.:. _ Q. What was the situation with reference to the close ’ of work and punching out of the time clock? . A. They were allowed a 14-minute period in which to leave or get from the department to their time clock and during which to -perform any other personal duties that they might have to do and want to-do before being charged with another quarter of an hour. ee Q. And what’ was the purpose in setting up this 14 - minute period? . | —s, Mr. Lamb: ‘Objection. - The Master: Overruled. , oer | A. The purpose was. two-fold; one was to establish --a rule that was fair to the employee, as well as a rule 2 1412 ; Charles BE. Doll , ‘ that insured the ‘itileetain bites ready*and availabe for ; production at the established starting time. ~ Q. (By Mr. Cooper): Whether or not there was any requirement as to the time an employee « ould — the time clock? A. He was permitted to punch in at any time between © the 14 minutes and his established starting time. Q. Was it a matter of the employee’s convenience as to when he wanted to mee int ° , A. It was, yes. __» Q. Suppose that an cnphepes whose starting time was 7 A.M., punched the time clock at exactly 7 A. M., as of ; what time would his work be computed as having begun? ; A. As of 7 o’clock. Q. In setting up this 14-minute period, Mr. Doll, did you take into consideration your observations over a — into the plant and going to work? A. We did. ~* Q. What part do the time clock cards play in this | system of computing the hours of work, Mr.. Doll? A. They are first of all a record of attendance. ; Q. Could you keep your record of the hours of work without using time clock cards? ; : A. We could. - Q. Is it more convenient from the viewpoint of ae work, and so forth, to have the time clock ecards, or would. it be more convenient to not use them? - ~ @, A. It would be more convenient ‘to the- office to nse time books. The Master: Then why do you resort to“the time clock ‘method of keeping the record of hours worked? _ A. Because of the fact that we thought that the time clock method would do ,away. with any possiblity of.a dispute as to the attendance, or more especially the fact as to whether or not the person really was getting there ‘n time to be ready for work, Whereas the other system, a person might slip in late, and the foreman afterwards | when he askéd him, well, he has been here all day and put him down for 8 hours... a The Master: Do 1 understand the testimony: you have given that if the established starting time is 7 o’clock, . ‘von ask the employee and want the employee to-be at '\\his-place of work and. ready to’ start production work at 7 o'clock: ; A : A. That is correct. bot ‘ The Master: You.also mentioned that you didn't care | whether the employees checked in at the time clock at 14 minutes to 7 or whether they waited until one or two minutes to 7 or ever at 7 o’clock, that they. would stil’ _, get eredit for starting at 7. How do vou reconcile the two, statements? | eo | A. Simply this, that the responsibility we place upon the employee is to be ready for work. - . The Master: If he checks the time clock in at 7 _ o'clock" he obviously can’t be at his place of work at 7 -o’clock.. © °° (ise a. s 4 x aye Charles E. Doll ie - _A. No, we realize that he wouldn’t be starting work” until after. But the question was.asked me if he did. punch in at 7, would he still get credited for ‘having . started at that. time. , Well, utder the’rulé of recording the time, he would, but actually he would not. have starsed , at that time. ‘The Master: And actually the plant management would . disapprove of his coming in regularly and punching - the time clock at 7 o’clock? . A. His foreman would certainly remonstrate with him about it. That -actually happens frequently where” people have to be cautioned about ‘it. We don’t fire thém on. - account of it, because the big majority of. them realize © the reasonableness of it-and finally adjust themselves to it. ¢ Q. .(By Mr. Cooper) Then’ this system as you have described it, of computing hours of work, has been in’ effect at the Mt. Clemens Pottery Company down through the period involved in this suit and for about how many - years before that? ; A. If my memory is correct, it is just when NRA Went into operation, which I think was along abont 1933. It had beén in operation then about 8 years at the time of | the™ suit. Q. And in retaining the system through this period of time, . Mr. Doll, were you familiar with the practices — as you have described them in other industries of keeping "time on a time. book without use of time clocks? A. I was. ,We felt this was a much more thorough and fair system. Q. Were yo familiar with the interpretative rulings of th® wage and hour division to the effect that time clocks were not required? . Mr. Lamb: Objection. * * * ; a The Master:. I think I will take his’ testimony subject - to the objection i in order to get the testimony on record. I don’t at the present see just the materiality of it, but I - do think your question was in the leading form and you. should ask him to what, if any, extent, rulings of the s* Charles E; Doll, *.° -7 115 wage and hour act or department were taken intu effect in ‘establishing the system, rather than referring to a © specific ruling. ny | Pi * 9 we (1120 ian Chartes Ee Doll | ° ‘ start sometimes. at 6:30, %ometimes at 7 o'clock. And we come+down to the other departments, basieally.they are on a7 to.7:15 or 7:30 starting time basis, according to _ conditfens that prevail over different periods of the year. Q. Have you had occasion to make’ any observations, ° Mr. Doll, of the employees coming in during this interv al and punching in at the time clocks? A. Yes, I have seex them on the early shifts a- well as afternoon shifts. I know how they liné up and the” ven eral conditions connected with. the vhecking through on the clocks. . Q. Would you please describe that situation? A.” Well, we will take a typical tnstance of, ‘we will say, a department or a group of departments that are going to start at 7 o’clock, aiid in which the. time clocks’ are opened at 14 of. Ina ‘case of that kind you will find a certain number of people, the early birds, who are lined up at the clock pn that particular morning, waiting for 14 minutes to come. When the signal is given that the’ clocks are open and they ean begin ‘checking in, they start to go through. Now, depending upor the length of that line doterthines ‘how many people go’ through’ during the early part of the 14 minutes, but’ after those that have ‘accumulated ‘and those that keep straggling in while’ the line is moving up | _or going through, you are gradually iit mata ‘the end of the line. . After the end of the line goes through, why, tides what you say,—the people ‘are coming in in between or half way point between. the opening of the clocks and starting ‘time; they begin to straggle through and finally you get down to the real stragglers who are just beating the gun - by a few minutes, or just barely getting in on time or . will be late in starting. It is very simple to tell from the line-up: how inuch delay sthere is for the people at the tail end of the line in being able to punch through as against the people who “are at the head end of the line. * Chark s Bk. Dell , . 2s The Mister: I take, it that more employees come in at 7-o’elock, or on. that shift, than at any other time? " [° A. As fat as one individual time clock is concerned _there probably were.on time clock B more people conring . in around that period. “4 The Master: “How, many employees, roughly, will Tiave to punch in ai these two time clocks .\ and B, or each. of the twostime clocks A and B between 14 minutes to 7 and’ 7 o'clock? wir : A. You are referring to the period previous to this action? The Master: Yes, the period of 1938 to 1941. A. In the case of time clock A, the slip department, - which was comparatively a small department; would be - punching, in earliest. Then when you came to the people coming in for the clay department, there would’ be in the neighborhood of 300 coming thr®agh on each -shift. - And; over on the time clock B there would be frem 200 to 300 going’ through on that partictlar clock. ° * : The Master: Do you hate any idea how long it takes 300 employees to punch the time clock, pass the clock? “ A. Yes, I definitely know. I have freyyently checked it myself, and they go through the time clocks on an aver- age of about 25 per minute ; The M&ster: So that iAhey were all lined up there at 14 minutes to 7, that would be about 12 minutes? A. 300 people would take 12 minutes to go through. The Master: It would be two* minutes to 7 before they could all be through? A. The last one would be through. The Master: The man that got through at two minutes to 7, woul he be ready to go to work at 7 o’elock under ordinary conditions? A. He would not. : The Master: Then. at the very best some of the em- ployees are bound to be late in going through, are they not? , . . ’ “1129 Charles E. Doll” A. All aglovecs do not get. started at ‘work at ee starting time. : The Master: And even if Shey all arrived at 14 idnation’ | to 7 it would still be impossible for all of them to be at » their position of work and ready to do — work’. at 7 o'clock? A. In the cage where as many as 300 or more people ‘were going through a clock. . ¥F The Master: All right. | | Q. (By Mr. Cooper, continuing): By-the way, would it take the same aniount of time to get them through the time clock, Mr. Doll, whether they were lined up before the time clocks were opened or whether they came in in — various groups er singly during the 14-minute period? A. I have frequently observed them with that parti- .- . cular thing in mind, and the time would be just. about the same except in the case where you have a few brand new employees switched into the line, in which case there sometimes is a little bit of confusion in not being able to © grab thé card out of the rack, insert it.in the clock, and put it’in the other side of the rack as quickly as oe ex- perienced employee. Q. I think vou referred, also, to time clock B. It ap- pears on Exhibit 30-A, does jit not, that there are two time clocks at-the point marked ‘‘time clock B’’? .* * * A. Exhibit 30-A shows an arrow specifically pointing to time clock B. On the other side of the aisle there is a ' marking which rotates time clock C, but it is not specified on the plan. Time clock. C was not installed until about e month of March, 1941. * * * Q. (By Mr. Cooper): Considering time - clock wan and the time clock which was af: point ‘‘B’’ during the period up te March of 1941, what type of _ clocks Were they, Mr. Doll? ee A. Well, ‘‘A’’ was an tudeteiitionad, and “*B’’ was a Stromberg, both electric clocks. : Q.~ Just what. would an employee have to do when he Oy ‘ Chades Eo Doli + iif was going through the time clock, as we speak of it, what would be his precise steps? ae? pees A. In the case of time clocks ‘‘A’* and ‘‘B”’, ti@y are similar in this respect; that the employee first locates his time card in the rack, withdraws it from the rack, in- serts it in the slot of the time clock, pushes a lever, Te? ~ leases a lever, takes his card out and proceeds to place it in the rack onthe other side of the time clock. — -Q. And during the period involved what would be the average number of persons going through time clock ‘‘B’’ . for the 7 o’clock shift? - ; a err - A. About 25 per minite—oh, you mean as to the total number"? = : ee. Q. The-total number. ~ - ie . A.. The total namber going through there at any ,par- ticular starting time would be between 200 and 250. ‘e The Master: How did you happen to install a second time clock at that point? —oS A. -As a matter of splitting the plant into. two pay periods, that’ is, we pay on a two weeks’ period, about * ‘. one-half of the employees are paid on one. period, and one-half on the other. — Meee oo Bish oar Now, for the -conveniencé of the employees, the em- 4 plovees on time clocks ‘‘B’’ and ““C’? use these cloak rooms in the administration. building on the east end of the plant, and they are all paid on one: Friday. The other employees that use time clock ‘‘A’” use the cloak .rooms % on the north side of the plant and they are’ all paid on another Friday.* - .— es The Master: The question that I have in mind is how did you happen to install an additional time clock right opposite the time clock ‘‘B’’? 7 aioe Ce A. Oh, this was installed here because there was some congestion in getting through that time clock, and, at the request of the employees, it really was, we put in the other clock at the ‘request of the employees. : Q. - (By Mr. Cooper): Would. there be line-ups that ~ out. 1124 : Charles E, Doll ? would. occur from time to time during the 14 minute pee riod that the ye ihe would . be _punehing™ inate ps time clock?.*-**———_~ A. There is always a group congregated ready to go through as.sodn as the clock is_open. While they ‘are moving through, others arrive and come in on the tail end -of the line. Finally you really get the line through, then you come to the point where they are arriving -by twos and threes, and then finally to the single staggers com- ing in on. the finish. The Master: In the clay shop. you said shins were about 300 employees on each shift? _A. That would be going through the clock at one time. The Master: That would be going through the clock at one time, and that is not only true in the morning but it is also true at noon when they leave for their lune *h half hour? ‘Be A. Absolutely, wherever they gO in they, have to come The Monten: And the lunch period i is the same through- out. the clay shop, that is taken at the same time?: A. Not entirely. The people operating on the auto- matic machines frequently have a slightly different lunch period thanthe people working on the’ hand jobs, gr than ag people doing other operations in the clay department. - The Master: -Is there any considerable number of them working on the automatic machines? A. There are quite a few, ves. The Master: About how many? - A. Well, you take from a standpoint of the—any . one shift, the number of workers on each machine is—they represent about fifty people. . | “The. Master: So that there would still be about 250 people who were not working on the automatic machines and who would go out to.lunch at the same time? A. That is right. The Master: And when they. leave for lunch, at best it would take them ten minutes to pass the time clock? e . v’ a, \ y Charles. Doll ae — __-A= It-would take tliem on th: sume basis, if they were all lined up, it. would take them ten minutes going out. Q. (By Mr. Cooper) Would the number of employees | that would get through the time clock in the course of a minute vary somewliat, perhaps up.or down from 25, de- pending upon whether or not there were a group waiting in line with. their cards all ready. Mr. Lamb: Objection ‘to the form of the. question as ne jeading. - ! , The Master: ‘Read back the question. — (Question read.) A. When I— — , ; The Master (interposing): Just a minute. The witness ean state as to whether or-not the 25 per minute average which he gave is subject to variations, depending upon dif- -rerent factors, and state the factors that affect the ‘varia- tion, if there is the variation. That will eliminate any leading form to the question. ) y A. Thave checked them and observed them myself, and I have checked them as fast.as 28 and I haye checked them as slow as’ 22. And I know that the 25 is a fair average. Me ; | : Now, the variables that cause that are, as I said a bit ago, the speed with which an experienced worker who has heen doing:that for years, takes the card in and out and punches it and puts it in. the other rack and goes on his way, as against the beginner who is not so familiar with things. as And then also, like in a!l operations, piecework opera- tions or anything else that human heings do, everybody— - or one person is not necessarily, as fast as another. Con- sequently, according to the way the fast or the slow ones may be grouped in there is what determines your average speed in going through the clocks. : 4 Q. (By Mr. Cooper) Are employees expecteder_.re- quired to punch the time clock at any particular time dur- ing this 14-minute period? | . . A. They are not. 1126 ‘Charles KB. Doll Q.‘ Are they expected or required to go to work as soon © as'they can after punching the time clock? A. ‘Phey are not--they are told not to, and at the same time they do not. . Q. Are you familiar from actual observation, Mr. Doll, with the activities of employees in fhe plant during this 14-minute period before an established starting time? A. I am. Q. Would ygu describe the situation? Mr. Lamb: dbjection, unless he identifies the particu- lar employees and the days he is describing them. The Master: I will overrule the objection. General. testimony has to be given on that and was given in be- . half of the plaintiffs . ‘and can also be given by -the de- fendants. A. It is a-very interesting study to observe a thing of that kind.. In years gone by there might not have been any particular importance attached to it, but under pres- ent conditions those things are noted and observed. First of all, after the employee has punched the time elock, you note, if you are really studying the situation, that ‘the speed or the rate at which different’ ones walk from the time elock ‘to his ae ana varies quite de- cidedly. — The gait at which they walk is ; quite different.. lf some- ~ one further up the line is walking very fowly some people will continue,—will go along adjusting their gait fo the _-gait.of the person up ahead. If, however, somebody thinks that gait is too slow he may ent aronnd and - up fur: _ther in the procession. That is the first thing. The second thing that is interesting is that despite the fact, as is shown on Exhibit 30-A, there are toilet rooms to which the employees may go before they. arrive at the time clock, that after they have gone through the time clock if they happen to pass another set of toilet rooms, ‘why, some of them will stop in there; or, they will stop at the drinking fountains as they go along. They invariably ° £ Charles EF. Poll ee i ef | come in in twos, stroll along in twos and threés chatting _and talking as they go among their own particular group. . If they are passing employees of another-department in their line of travel they will sometimes stop and talk to these. other employees. . Sec we MES | have seen them even digress from the regular line of travel to his department and go. oyer-into another de- partment where he.may want-to say a word to an employee in that department if that department happens to be ‘working.” ; ar When they get-down to the particular place in the: . department at which this’ empleyee is ‘going to go to work, unless he has come in late from the standpoint of {| punching in close to his'starting time, he is quite leisurely fin getting himself ready and taking care of the little duties connected with the personal things that he has to do to get ready to start. i ne ~ We have a good bit of conversing among our employees, perhaps more than what they would have in some other . sections due to the fact that we have such a large number of them that are interested in boating. Somé ‘of them have hoats of their own. -In fishing, in pheasant shooting in the fall, and in deer hunting and in things of that kind. ‘Mr. Lamb: °*T object to all this type of conversation. - The Master: -I will overrule it. | ae A. And 1 know, as a mater of fact, that they spend quitesa bit of time in visiting back and forth. -The time is their own. You can find no fault with that. And, there is a kind of -a sociability connected with those starting pe- riods. And then they go about,—every: job has a lot of little personal things to get ready io enable then to get started promptly and to enable them to operate efficiently. These people are 98 per cent on piecework operations. They become very proficient at it. They know the things: that they should do ahead of time'to get themselves prop- erly set to start promptly and to make the best .use of their allowed working time. * ° ° (§. Conld yon state, Mr. Doll, whether the finishers in & 1188 Charles ¥. Boll the clay department Sometimes purchased their supplies during this period that we were talking about before the noon recess, in,the 14-mindte pertod preeeding the regular starting time?” A. Quite— oe *. Mr. Lamb: Objection. > The Master: @verruled. Go ahead. A. Quite a number of them make their purchases of . their supplies before starting time, particularly on the afternoon shift, i a ‘Q. Can you state from ebnvevelion whether any - par. ticular amount of time is consumed in that connection?: A. Well, in-a case of finishers, they do take quite a little time in purchasing their sponges, due to the fact ». that a number of them will arrive at the stock room in the "same general period, and of course’ they like .to select -.. their own sponges. In the stock room they will have a. tray or a cage with quite.a number of sponges in it, just as they have come from the bales, and a finisher, when her turn comes after the girl ahead of her has been waited — on, she ‘will step up to the cage and paw around among them, pick out one-that secms\to suit her, and then she will dip it into a pai! of water setting. alongside the cage, to soak it up to see after it is soaked up if it suits her. . She may go through half a dozen of them before ‘she finds one that really suits her, but the choice is hers, so we let her pick ont one that suits her and reject as many as she sees fit. , \ Q. What would you say as to whether or not the em- ployees commence actual work before the established starting time’. _A. The general average of employees— Mr: Lamb: Object to the — Let the record show ‘an objection. . , The Master: On the ground it is ‘too general and has” 3 to be limited to a particular time and place? Mr. Lamb: That is one of the grounds. The Master: What other grounds? _ Mr. Lamb: Materiality. a ms Charles Kk. Doll : 1 129 The Master: Well, 1 don’t see any question of material- ity. The other ground, why—I will let him testify this way. | think I permitted. it for the plaintiffs and so | . will permit it for the defendants. -_* Mr. Lamb: It is a conclusion. . . A. My observation and knowledge ot the situation is that the employees do-not start work before starting time, and that they frequently ‘start after... a Q.: (By Mr, Cooper) Now, you have described the be- ' ginning of operations in the morning, Mr. Doll. . Now, can you tell the Court what the situation is with refer- ence to quitting time at the end of the day? A: Well, take, for ‘instance, the piecework department, such as the clay department, and in fact with nearly all piece workers, they try to schedule their work and do schedule their work so ‘het they are an the safe side of {he starting time in finishing up. They will not run the risk of carrying over portions of a unit and endeavor to ‘finish up on the basis of a complete unit. — : es This invariably means that they are through with the units that they have been working on, they are through with the cleaning up incidental to their, jobs, making them- selves personally in readiness to leave the department, © and do many times leave the-department before quitting time, stopping at the wash rooms or toilet rooms as they go out, and many times are waiting at the time clock ready to punch out at the earliest possible moment. Q. Have you had oceasion to observe how steady. work . continues during the-day? _ pe iaae o_o: Mr. Lamb: Objection, The Master: Overruled. * ° ° . A. Piecework employees are not engaged in. productive work during the entire established or allowed work pe- riod. , The big majority of our people are good workers. They are interested in earning, but they do not hesitate to take a few minutes here and there throughout the day to relax. from the tension of. continuous production. They, of course, stop production whenever ‘they take Ge } L808” — Chartis E2 Doll —=-@, 2% time out to go to a drinking fountain or to go to-a wash room or to take a few minutes to perform some incidental function connected with the particular job... During the.course of the work period, émployees do go to the stock room, make purchases of supplies. They have knives or individual tools that they have. to keep in con- dition to’ work, and as long as they show by their general production and. attention to the work that they are on the '. job, that they are trying to produce, that they are inter- — ested in producing from their own standpoint as well as ours, we do not object to these minutes -that are. — out in the course of ‘the work period. Q. _What is your observation as to how the company’s computation of -hours worked compares with ‘the actaal ‘hours of work? Mr. Lamb: Objection. ~ b The Master‘ I think this es is more —" I will take his answer. | A. Our study of the situation convinces us that our method of calculating’ is more ee fair to the employee. Q. (By .Mr. Cooper) Could I ask you whether it is’. more or less than the amount of time actually worked? = ~ - Mr. Lamb: Objection. A. Our estimate is that the ‘ime recorded is more than the time actualy spent in production work. Mr. Lamb: I ask that the answer be stricken. The Master: I wilblet that.answer stand. I will st¥ike ~ the ‘previous answer. about it being more than fair to the employee. Q.* (By Mr. Cooper) in referring to the time recorded, you refer to the hours computation which appears, among = places, on the right-hand column of the tinge clock? That is -correct. _Q: Have you ever heard of any preparatory opera-. tions of cleanup operations being performed by an em- ployee either before he rang his time card in the morn- ing, or after he had punched gut the time clock. at night? ©. Charl S E. Doll | i "1131 Mr. Lamb: Objection; asking for: hearsay. ‘‘Has he — ever heard of something.”” __ mils S - oy Mr. Cooper: Wel!, I can ask him whether he knows of it. ae ° ; ¢ - The Master: Ask’him whether he knows. -| will accept the question in the revised form. Do you know of any. such? eee Svea J ‘A. J.do uot know of any ‘duties that they perform, outside of the incidental personal -duties. * ° ° ey Q. (By. Mr. Cooper) Do:you know of -any. employee in the glost belt department coming in on.a Monday morn- ing ‘to. load the saggers and loading saggers hefore punch- ing in his time card?: : : me ; . -A&. As to-my knowledge, all work is performed after - the time cloek is punched in and after the regular starting time. on Ary o gon eons - Q. Is the method ot paying employees largely on piece rates, moré or legs peculiar to the Mt. Clemens Pottery Company, or is,jt common: thronghout the indust ryt A.-. Piece rate—- , , _. Mr. Lamb: Objection. a" The Master: Overruled. — oe ; A. Piece rate operations are typical. and prevail ‘throughout the pottery industry. aot . Q. - (By Mr. Cooper) Could yow state briefly, Mr. Doll, just what is meant by the term ‘‘piece rate system’’? — A. Well, the piece rate system is one in-which the, em- ' -ployer agrees to pay a given sum for a certain -unit or pieces of work, or certain service performed, and which is understood and agreed upor between the employee and the’ employer, and wh'cl has two primary ‘ purposes; — one, of giving a fixed costwon that. item of-production, and, on the other hand. given the employee -the . opportunity through his individual skill and initiative to earn the maximum of his ability. " , mL Q. There*has been some reference. made during the course of the hearing, Mr. Doll. to an employee punching the time clock, as for example, 10 minutes to 7, and being paid from 7 o’clock, Now, is the .pigce rate workers paid ‘from 7 o'clock? .._ ‘ ° ¢ “e , By i ; ‘ Chas li S iF Doil A ° sells them to the employees, it is industry-wide a custom ™ the employee to. pay for them: Mr. Lamb: I ask. that the last ‘part of the answer be .- stricken as to the— ~ The Master: I will let it stand. . Q. ‘How do-you determine which items of equipment and tools.and materials are to be paid for by the employees and what items are té be paid for by the company ? A. It ‘is based upon established practice in the in- . dustry that dates hack long before T knew anything about ~ the industry. 4. ‘ The Masteréfgn the case of an employee:in the clay ‘shop, let’s take a jigger man, for example; he‘ uses a scraper and also a pail, and the finisher that he works with uses a sponge, is that. right? ‘4: 2" . : ie The Master: And all of those items he is tequired to buy h®mself, or was during this — at least? A. That is correct. i ~ Charles E. Doll ae 1ikD ¢ a ‘The Master: He also has some kind of a bench or table in front of him that he works upon?’ ~ A. He bears no expense ot. the ingtallation or mainte nance of equipment. | ; eh. The Master: Are there ayy other movable items of equipment that he uses-in his work, that the company pays for and that he-isn’t required to pay for? A. | ean not recall anything~ that the clay shop workers, in connection with the jiggering operations, pur- chase except sponges, ports, scrapers and oceasional finger cots. ‘ - The Master: Are there any~.movable items of equip ment that the company pays for that he uses?- A. All movable items—all movable. and stationary ‘tems of equipment other than these incidental tools: that | have spoken of are the. property—supplied and the " property of the company. ne The Master: What other items does the jigger may’ use in his operation? > ee A. Well, the jigger man, doesn “t—he uses his machine, | z ‘ he uses his jigger. The Master: That is quite an elaborate machine? A. Well, that.is a power-operated - machine. The ma. chine, the belts that go with it, the motors that drive it, that is all®of course, furnished by the. company. The bat- ting-out equipment which we use in our shop, which is far superior to anything. used: in the other shop because of its taking so much labor off of the batter-out, is electri- * cally-operated as against a hand operation in the other factories, but we don’t charge any of that expense against the batter-out. | . 7 ~ There is the dryer, that goes with thi _eger’ man 's op- eration, commonly referred to as a mangle. That, of egurse, he has nothing to do with the installation or the maintenance’ of. The finisher utilizes a tool known as a finishing tool, which is supplied by the company. ‘The Master: What. kind of a-tool is that? 4. The finishing tool is a very light, small instrument . in which we have a very minute carboloy tip in it, on the » . ss © . Lioh Charles Ik. Jivil : end of a piece of spring steel, and she uses that to smooth a off the edges of a piece of ware while they are revolving around on a wheel. The Master: Roughly,. how iia does that tool cost? A. That particular one? — The Master: Yes. -" : A. That particular one :costs about. 5 cents apicee. The Mastet: Are those tools being lost, and mislaid fairly frequently ? ee _ A. Well, some of, them do disappear, but we don’t have, in the case of these ‘particular tools, so much trouble, be- cause they are a type of thing peculiar to our own opera- tion, and Sate would —v be no incentive for anyone - to— The Mast ster (anterposing): They rey Qdon’t use thosg in other -potteries? A, ey do’ not. i The Master: Is that the reason why you make the dis- tinction between that top! and the — that the jigger man uses, as to who is to pay for it? © A. , There is; your lionor. In the other potteries the finishers use a different type .of tool which ‘is purchased by the jigger man and supplied to the finisher. It is sim- ply a piece of metal of a certain shape, made of soft steel, and a finisher has to stop her work repeatedly duri course of the day and file that edge sharp. Now we did for them when we developed this tool that We use and which we furnisK~to them without char ause we make them up ourselves, we developed this earboloy point which enables_a girl to work: day after day without hav-: ‘ing to sharpen that point at all. And these points dor re- quire some attention. They return them to the filing room at intervals and sooner than have them their property we have retained title te them onrselves and cai them to them without charge. regular form of annual earnings card which you have for all of the employees (handing exhibit to the witness) ? A.’ A record of this kind is kept for each individual employee for a year at a time. Q. Is there a column on that and the other individual earnings: records headed “Gross Pay’’? — 2 A. There is. Q. Ate any deductions made from any worker’s gross pay for the price of materials. furnished by the worker? A. The gross pay represents the amount left after the purchases have been deducted. Q.. I am not sure whether you have been asked about this before, -whether or not in fixing a piece rate .there ‘is taken. into consideration the amount of supplies which “ave: to be used in connection with the particular opera- _ tion? : * Mr. Lamb: Objection. The Master: Overruled. A. In fixing a. piecé rate all factors ‘are taken into % ° Charles Ie Joall a BL consideration that have anything to do with what will be finally’ left to the employee as representing a fair rate of pay. ° ° ° . Q. (By Mr. Cooper) And whether or not the cost of any supplies purehased by an employee is ‘taken off before his gross pay is computed and entered on«the records? — Ds ‘A, Any deductions ‘tor Supplies purehased ‘have been taken out before the amount is shown on the yearly earn- ings ecard under the heading o* gross pay. Q. Where do the employees of ‘the: pottery huy these various supplies? es A.- Some of them buy them on the outside ; a big ma- jority of them buy them from the company stockroom. Q. If they do buy them elsewhere, is any kind of a deduction charge made by the spins : A. None whatever. _ Q. Are you able to state of your own knowledge why most of the employees buy. these items from -the com- pany.’s stockroom? _. Mr. Lamb: Objection. He isn't “qualified to answer me 5a : The Master: This question now is as to’ whether the witness is able to state whether or not he knows, and [ . will get the witness” answer yes or no to. that as to whether -he knows. Then 1 will take the objection into eonsideration on the next question. ‘A. T know why they buy them .from our storeroomn. The Master: How do you know? -A. I‘know it for two reasons: *One is.that they’ can’t buy the same items far the same.money from a store, and, secondly, becatise employees have told me the: eom- ‘parison of values when they have attempted to. buy * them. from Page np salts Q. (By Mr. Cooper) Can you state,. Mr. Doll, what — are the comparative costs of, items of supplies which vous. have -been referring to as bought in the company’s - stockroom and when hongh} af ontside stores? + 1140 Charles. E. Doll Mr. Lamb: May | state my objection before he an- - swers that question? - . The Master: Yes. ma sonal ee Mr. Lamb: Obv iously this witness will make a selt- serving declaration and, of course, -he sells in his com- pany’s store goods at less than the Kresge outside store’ might sell to these same employees, and I think the proper way of proving that is not by hearsay as te what he hears that some employees, someone else may say or buy at an outside store, as compared with the price he charges in his own store. * * * The Master: He may answer the que stion. A. I can recall in the case of some canvas ‘gloves that . I previously testified to in this hearing, we are supply- ing to employees at 12 cents. Those same gloves can not he ~purchased at retail for less tham 15 — On other - types of gloves— * * * . A. I was about to refer to pe minninie which we have been: for the last couple of years supplying to _-employees at actually less than what they cost us, be- cause the price of sheepswoo!l sponges went so high that we couldn’t even ask them to pay what they cost. As an illustration; we have been—up until about 6 months _ ‘ago we were selling sheepswool sponges to the employees at 35 cents, that were costing us 60 cents each. The Master: You mean 60 cents each out of pocket, ‘or do you include overhead in that? ‘ : A. They cost 60 cents each at the ‘fisheries in Florida. * * ° A. Since that “time we have been charging them 40 | cents for these sponges, and they have been. costing us from 75 to 82 cents apiece. * * * Q. (By Mr. Cooper) What are some of, these items _ ‘of supplies handled in the company’ s stockroom, Mr. Doll? , Mr. Lamb: You mean that are sold to employees? Mr. Cooper: Yes. e » ‘ “e A. Well, they are canvas gloves, sponges, finger cots, Charles By Doll ; di4l some small. camel's hair brushes.that are used by liners, decaleomania rubbing brushes, decalcomania size brushes, pails. { think I have named all that amount to anything. (). Now, in conne [Text truncated at 120,000 characters. The full text is on the page linked above.] --- Source: Frix Law Library, https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40386450_0122%3A03. Public record. Not legal advice.