# Appendix — Logue v. United States > Briefs, arguments, decisions, and more. URL: https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40386414_0166%3A2 ## Record - **Collection:** Supreme Court brief - **Document type:** Appendix - **Published:** January 1, 1973 - **Citation:** 412 U.S. 521 ## Text FEB 23 1973 MICHAEL RODAK, JR..C In the Supreme Court of the United States OCTOBER TERM, 1972 No. 72-656 ORVAL C. LOGUE, ET AL., Petitioner, VS. UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Respondent. On WRIT oF CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES CouURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT PETITION FOR CERTIORARI FILED OCTOBER 28, 1972 CERTIORARI GRANTED JANUARY 8, 1973 E. L. MENDENBALL, INc., 926 Cherry Street, Kansas City. Mo. 64196. 421-3030 Volume II—Pages 301-630 aa INDEX Volume II Cross Examination .. 304 Del W. Bowers, Jr. (By Deposition) : Direct Examination 309 Cross Examination ...0..0............2.--..cceceeececeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees 338 Redirect Examination —..00.2.2..0...0....eececceeceeceeeeeeeee sees 369 Recross Examination -....02....2........-ccecceseeececeeeeeeeeeeeeeees 370 Gerald Jones: Direct Examination .2......22....0..2c..ecceccecceeeeeeeeeeee neeeees 372 Cross Examination -..0..2........2..ceeeccecceeceseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees 395 Redirect Examination 2..............eceeeeeceteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees 415 Tom Lowrance: Direct Examination -.0.0..2...20.....21..cceeeeeceeeeeeeeeees 419 Cross Examimation -222.....22..22......eeceeeeeceeeeeeeeeeeeeeee teens 426 Redirect Examination _2........2.........2ceceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees 446 Frank Reyna: Direct Examination ..0......2....2..20...e.eeeeeeeeeceeeeeeceeeceeeeeeees 449 Cross Examination -..02.2.......2....e.eeceeceeceecceeceeeeeeeeeeees 452 Redirect Examination _22.............ceceececeeceeceeeeeeeeeeeees 481 Paul Barber: Direct Examination 485 Cross Examination 22.0..........20........eceeeeeceeceeeeeeeeeeee eee 487 W. E. Strait: Direct Examination —.22.....2........ececeeeeeeeeeeeeceeececeeeeeees 498 Cross Examination .. 501 Seah Lies Ss oie 5 pa I a en aR : fi~ il James L. Stone: Direct Examination 503 Croas: amination. 1.2.8 ee 514 Mrs. Laura Allard: SD pig cage Ove lo1i let. LA C6 ¢ SeenON sete eesaees le nels anene renee ter 516 Cross Examination 520 Sam J. Roberts: Direct Examination 524 Cross TEXBIINIAUION, sxsccienciceicaese cisterns 544, 546 Plaintiff’s Original Complaint 555 Answer 560 First Amended Answer 963 Second Amended Answer 566 Plaintiffs’ Proposed Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law 569 Defendant’s Proposed Findings of Fact and Conclusions 1p | ae enn ne ear Eee 576 Pre-Trial Order ........... 581 Memorandum ad: Opiniiony asec nce trees 607 INOUHCe OE PAPC cic t eee 614 Order Extending Time for Transmission of Record ...... 615 Opinion, United States Court of Appeals, Fifth Circuit, May 1, 1972 616 Petition for Rehearing Denied, July 31, 1972 .................. 624 a 301 A. Yes, he had no shirt on at the time. Q. Upon arrival in the bedroom, what occurred then? A. Well, he got a shirt and had some discussion there, he wanted to see the warrant right then, [404] and Mr. Bowers didn’t have the warrant with him, and he explained that it would be shown to him whenever it arrived from Laredo. Q. Did you notice anything unusual about his bed- room or the surroundings in the room? A. Well, it had, he had kinda wildly painted it, you might say, it looked like it was spray can painted, it had been sprayed across the ceiling and had made a “X” across the ceiling, and certain designs on the walls and stuff like that. Q. Did you notice anything unusual in the room? A- The odor of airplane glue, airplane-type glue. Q. Was there a very strong odor? A. Strong enough that when you walked, whenever you first walked in the room at the door, why— Q. —Could you smell it when you walked in the front door? A. No, I didn’t notice it when we walked in the front door. Q. But you did notice it when you walked into Reagan’s bedroom, is that correct? A. Uh-huh, his door was closed whenever we ap- proached his door. Q. Did you notice anything else in there? [405] A. There was a brown paper sack sitting on the floor there with nothing in it, that I could tell, any- way. 302 Q. Did you notice anything unusual about the sack? A. No, it was just, well, I just noticed it sitting on the floor, in other words, I didn’t look straight down the sack. Q. What happened then? A. After some discussion about the warrant, Reagan’s mother finally convinced him to go with us, and I believe, if I am not mistaken, he was allowed to call his attorney, which at that time, I believe, was Marvin Foster, and he advised him, I think, to go ahead and go with us. Q. This call was made from the house there, is that correct? A. Yes, uh-huh. | Q. And then you proceeded to put Reagan in the car, is that correct? A. Yes, he went with us after, after his mother talked to him, or after the lady there talked to him, I’m not sure whether it was his mother or not, but after the lady there talked to him and his attorney talked to him, he went with us. Q. There was no struggle, was there? [406] A. No, just the discussion up until the time we convinced him he was going to have to go with us. Q. And then did you accompany Deputy Bowers with Reagan to the jail? A. Yes. Q. And which jail was that? A. The Nueces County Jail. Q. Here in Corpus Christi? 303 A. Yes. Q. And did you accompany them to the booking desk? A. Yes. Q. What did you do then? A. Well, Mr. Bowers had him booked as a Federal prisoner, and they took his belongings off of him. Q. And then what did you do, if anything? A. Nothing, that was about it, that was about the extent of our involvement in the case there. Q. You went on back to your customs duties? A. Yes, uh-huh. Q. Did you notice any particular odor about the person of Reagan Logue? A. No, actually we didn’t go straight to the jail. We went by the Commissioner’s Office and then went up to the jail. [407] Q. Uh-huh. A. To the U. S. Commissioner, which is the U. S. Magistrate now, and which is J. C. Martin. Q. Did you smell glue or a smell of glue around Reagan Logue during this period of— Mr. De Anda: —Your Honor, the witness has testi- fied he didn’t smell anything, and he’s leading him, it’s obviously a leading question and contrary to what the witness has already testified to. o The Court: Don’t lead the witness. Mr. Pain: I will pass the witness; I have no further questions now. 304 CROSS EXAMINATION By Mr. De Anda: Q. Mr. May, I know it’s been a long time, and it wasn’t your arrest to start with, is that right? A. No, sir. Q. Actually, as I recall Mr. Bowers testimony, and Lrefer to it to refresh your recollection, I believe you were, yOu were, aS you say, you were asked to go with him or he asked you to go with him? [408] A. Yes, sir. Q. Because you knew where Reagan’s house was, at least that was the way I understand his testimony, would that be correct or incorrect? A. Well, now that you mentioned it, it is familiar, but— Q. —All right, okay, now after you got to the house, if I remember again, if I remember Mr. Bowers’ testimony, he said a young lady, a pretty young lady, I believe he described her as, came to the door first, do“you recall? A. There was a pretty young lady there in the house, and as best I recall, she was pregnant. Q. All right, I wouldn’t figure you fellows would forget that. All right, now after that, afterwards, 4 when Blacki told this young girl why he was there, #% that then an older lady came to the door, or not, + I’m sorry, that then Reagan came to the door and » that he was shirtless, he had a pair of levis on, do 4 you remember that? A. He came to the door before we actually was ad- mitted to the house and he didn’t have a shirt on. Q. All right, and then as I recall again, Mr. Bowers’ MU dead ah es 8 re LOM ONE EE AS td ,: Sf 305 investigation of this thing, he asked Reagan if [409] he wanted to put his clothes on, but that he would have to go in the house with him if he wanted to do that, and that Reagan told him he did want to get his clothes on, and so that was the reason that you actually made an entry into the house. A. Yes, that’s the reason for going into the house, was allowing him to get a shirt. Q. Do you recall Mr. Bowers telling Reagan that, for him to go back and get his clothes, that he would have to accompany him, do you remember that? A. The way I understood, the way I remember it is, that Reagan wanted the shirt, and in other words, Mr. Bowers informed him he was going to have to come with us, and he wanted to know if he could go back to his bedroom and get a shirt before he left, and Mr. Bowers said, “You can, but we will have to accompany you.” Q. All right, and then, then Reagan told Mr. Bowers to come ahead and you-all went back there to get his clothes? A. Yes. Q. All right, now in the room, you have described some rather bizarre paintings on it, was it [410] spray paint? A. Yes, sir, it appeared to be that type of paint. Q. It was all over the walls? A. Yes, sir, across the ceiling. Q. I think Mr. Bowers said he had never seen a room painted like that before, would that be a fair description of it? A. I have never seen one painted like that before, either. 306 Q. It looked like the room was frequently painted, I mean all of the job wasn’t done at the same time, it was sprayed— A. —It was sprayed different colors. Q. All right, and also didn’t you notice some water, or surfboards, surfboards, were there surboards in there? A. I don’t recall. Q. Were there cans of paint in there and cans of lacquer? A. If there was, I didn’t see those. Q. You don’t recall seeing them? You have de- scribed the smell of glue and could that smell have been paint or lacquer, as well as what you have de- scribed it as airplane glue, or are you such an ex- pert at smelling things like that, that you [411] can tell us? A. I have used several cans of spray paint in my life and I never smelled one in my life that smelled exactly like airplane glue. Q. How about lacquer? A. Same thing. Q. Lacquer has a similar smell? A. To me, it is different, now I don’t know. Q. All right, okay. You had no problems with Reagan, getting him, other than the inquiries about the warrant, whether or not you had a warrant, there was no particular problem with Reagan Logue, was there? A. The main problem seemed to be that he wanted to see the warrant right then. He was of the opinion that he had to be shown the warrant before being put under arrest. III EOP LLANE LSE MS TAO Om ; , T Q. Is that a problem, when somebody asks you for a warrant? A. Well, it is characterized as a problem, it may not be. Q. Okay, when you got to the jail, do you recall Reagan contending that he was God? A. He signed the register, the jail receipt, “God”, and then they told him that wouldn’t be [412] suf- ficient, the jailer told him it wouldn’t be sufficient, and he wrote, “Logue, God Logue.” Q. God Logue? A. Yes, sir. Q. All right. 307 Mr. De Anda: Thank you very much, that’s all. Mr. Pain: I have no further questions. The Court: You may step down. (Discussion held off of the record. ) Mr.’ Pain: Your Honor, may this witness be ex- cused? The Court: Yes, you may be excused. The Witness: Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED 308 Mr. Bowers: May we, could we withdraw the depo- sition of Deputy Bowers, please, from the record? Mr. Pain: Your Honor, at this time point, I will offer the deposition of the witness, Del W. Bowers, Jr., deceased, by [413] way of a deposition taken in Houston, Texas, on October the 22nd, 1970, with Plaintiffs’ Counsel, Jim De Anda, being present at such deposition, and I will offer it as part of our evi- dence in this case after reading it into the record. The Court: All right. Mr. De Anda: Your Honor, as we go along, I may have some objections to some portions that he wants to introduce— The Court: —That’s all right, you can make your objection at the time, I assume. Did you take it by 4 agreement? ; Mr. De Anda: Yes, sir, and it is not signed, but 4 Mr. Bowers is dead and I have no objections to their 3 reading it. 5 The Court: Well, there was no reason to make your | objections at the time of the taking of the deposi- § tion— } Mr. De Anda: —We did agree that we would pre- # serve our objections until the time of trial; however, 4 in view of the-fact that Mr. Bowers is deceased, I = would not object to the form of the question, I think. The Court: All right. 309 [414] DEPOSITION OF DEL W. BOWERS, JR., the witness having been first duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION By Mr. Pain: Q. Will you please state your name, please? (By Mr. Bowers) Del W. Bowers, Jr. . That is Del W.? Yes. . How are you employed? . At the present time? Yes. Deputy Sheriff at Del Rio, Texas, Val Verde County. Q. How long have you been so employed? . Since the lst of September. . Of 1970? . Yes. . And you do live in Del Rio, Texas, now? . Right. How long have you lived there? . Since about the middle of August. . Where did you live prior to living in Del Rio? [4 15] A. Edinburg, Texas. Q. How long had you lived there? A. Since April, 1960. Q. How were you employed prior to your job as a Deputy Sheriff in Val Verde County? A. As a Deputy U. S. Marshal. Q. Where were you stationed? rPOPOPOyp HK O>POPO>oO> 310 A. Edinburg. Q. How long were you a Deputy U. S. Marshal? A. From December, ’62, until June of ’70. Q. What were your duties as a Deputy United States Marshal? A. I was at Edinburg, Texas, as a U. S. Deputy Marshal. Q. A U. S. Deputy Marshal for the Southern Ju- dicial District of Texas, is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. Who was your immediate supervisor? A. Gerald L. Jones. Q. Now where was he stationed’ during the time he was your immediate supervisor? A. In Brownsville, Texas. Q. And who was your supervisor after Deputy Marshal Jones? A. You mean the— [416] Q. —The next step up? A. Casey Slocomb of Houston, Texas, Chief Deputy U. S. Marshal. Q. Will you describe the duties that you performed as a Deputy U. S. Marshal, generally? A. Well, a Deputy U. S. Marshal is the law en- 4 forcement arm of the Federal Court. Included in our duties, of course, is the keeping of order whenever we are in Court; we also attend Court; serve all Federal processes, summons, complaints, warrants. We also have custody of all Federal prisoners. Q. In your duties as a U. S. Deputy Marshal, did you have occasion to make arrests? A. Yes, sir, we do that quite often. 311 Q. And upon what authority do you ordinarily make arrests? A. Well, by warrant, bench warrants, warrants of arrest, orders from the Court. Q. Okay, what is the difference between a warrant and a bench warrant? A. Well, just a plain warrant is normally issued by the United States Commissioner. The bench warrant is issued by the Court, the Judge. Q. Is it always necessary for you to have the [417] piece of paper representing the warrant in your hands when you make an arrest? A. No, it is not. Q. And have you very often made arrests without the warrant in your possession? A. Yes, quite often. Q. Is that part of your ordinary policy and pro- cedure as a Deputy U. S. Marshal? A. Yes, it is. Q. Are you generally familiar with the facts of this particular lawsuit? A. Yes, I think I am. Q. It is a lawsuit whereby the survivors of Reagan Logue are suing the United States Government for damages for allegedly causing the death of Reagan Logue, is that your understanding? A. Yes, that is my understanding. Q. Do you recall the circumstances surrounding the origination of this lawsuit? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you recall making the arrest of Reagan Logue? A. Yes, sir. 312 Q. And to the best of your recollection, when was that? A. May I refer to my report that I have? [418] Q. Yes, you may. Mr. Pain: Then I continue—‘For the record, I believe Plaintiff’s— Mr. De Anda: —That’s irrelevant, why don’t you go on unless you just want to read it. Mr. Pain: No, the next question is— By Mr. Pain: Q. When was that time of the arrest that you made of Reagan Logue? A. Do you want me to relate what happened or the exact time of the arrest? Q. No, just give me the day, and to the best of your knowledge, the approximate time of the day that you first received information that there was a warrant outstanding for the arrest of Reagan Logue. A. About 11:00 A.M., I received a telephone call from George Bennett, Deputy Marshal in Laredo. Q. And what did he tell you? A. He stated the bench warrant had just been issued for Reagan Logue. Q. What did you do then? A. Well, during my conversation with him, he in- formed me that Logue lived in Corpus. Q. Where were you at the time you received this [419] telephone call? A. I was in the U. S. Marshal’s Office in Corpus Christi. Me au on ta a a ee ee bi ei ae ’ La we 313 Q. But your duty station was ordinarily Edinburg, is that correct? A. That is true, but I was detailed to Corpus Christi to attend Court, and also to take care of the station while Deputy Marshal Schorre was on prisoner duty. Q. For purposes of the record, would you spell Deputy Marshal Schorre’s last name? A. (Spelling) S-C-H-O-R-R-E. Q. And you were temporarily on duty in Corpus Christi, Texas, in your Capacity as a Deputy United States Marshal at the time you received this call from Deputy United States Marshal George Bennett, to the effect there was an outstanding warrant for the arrest of Reagan Logue, is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. After you received this telephone call, what did you do? A. I contacted the Customs Agent, Earl Simmons, by telephone. Q. Why did you do that? [420] A. Well, I had been informed that they knew his address because of a prior case on Logue from Judge Roberts’ Court in Austin. Q. A prior case Customs had against Logue, that was your information? A. Yes, and I believe in my conversation with Bennett, I believe he told me that the Customs Agent in Corpus Christi could assist me with Logue’s whereabouts. Q. All right, after you called— A. —Earl Simmons. Q. Earl Simmons, what did you do? 314 A. Well, Simmons told me on the telephone that Agent May and Valverde were familiar with the subject. Q. Were these Customs Agents? A. Yes. Q. All right. A. And they knew his address and they would assist me. Q. All right, did they assist you? A. Yes, they came to the Federal Building and I got in their car, and they took me to 425 Longview. Q. And— [421] A*—In Corpus Christi. Q. And the purpose of this trip that you took in the company of the Customs Agents was to execute the arrest warrant that was outstanding for Reagan Logue, is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. All right, you arrived at this address, and what was the address again, please, sir? A. 425 Longview. Q. You arrived at that address, then what did you do? A. Well, to the best of my recollection, I went to the front door, Customs Agents May and Valverde accompanied me. Q. Did you knock on the door? A. Yes, I knocked on the door and there was a young girl came to the door. I would say she was probably from sixteen, eighteen, or nineteen years old, she was a pretty young girl. Q. Did you identify yourself to her? 315 A. No, I did not. I asked her if Reagan Logue was at home, and I would like to talk to Reagan. Q. Did she identify herself to you? A. No, she did not. Q. What did she say after you inquired about Reagan [422] Logue? A. She said she would get him, and she went back in the house, shut the door, and just three or four, two or three or four minutes, why a young man came to the door just dressed in levis, no shoes, no shirt. Q. At the time she shut the door to go get this young man, were you and the two Customs Agents outside? ) A. Yes, we were standing outside the front door. Q. All right, now a young man appeared at the door, is that correct? A. He came to the front door and came out on the little porch, the foyer in front of the house. Q. Did you talk to him? A. Yes, I identified myself, asked him if he was Reagan Logue, and he said he was. Q. Now at the time you identified yourself, talked to him at this initial meeting, were the Custom Agents, May and Valverde, in hearing distance and in your presence? A. Yes, they were. Q. What did you subsequently say to this indi- vidual that showed? A. I told him I had a warrant for his arrest, and [423] that he would have to go with me to the Commissioner’s Office and to jail. Q. Did you ask if he was Reagan Logue? 316 A. Yes, I asked him when he first came to the door if he was Reagan Logue. Q. Did he acknowledge that fact? A. He did. Q. Then what happened? A. Well, at this point, after I informed him that I had a warrant for his arrest, he wanted to know ‘what for, and I told him, and then I asked him if he wanted to get shoes and socks and a shirt or any other clothes, and he said that he did. And about this time, I believe there was a lady, another lady came to the door, which I assumed was his mother, or the lady of the house, and I told her—-she asked him what was going on, and he told her that I was there to arrest him again, he was being arrested again. Q. Did he say anything to her at that time? A. Well, he turned to her and said that, “They have come to arrest me again,” and he Says, “This is something else besides the case in Austin.” And I told him that he would have to either get his folks to bring some clothes outside for him, [424] or if he went inside for the clothes, I would have to ac- company him inside. This lady was standing there, she was present, and she said, “Come on in and let’s get him dressed.” Q. Did you go in? A. Yes, I did. Q. Did the Customs Agents go in? A. Custom Agent May went in with me. Q. Valverde stayed outside? A. Yes. ST cr A ARADO RAF FI 7 _ 317 Q. After you and Custom Agent May went inside the house, what occurred then? A. Immediately, when I walked in the front door, I smelled a very strange odor. Right at first I thought maybe somebody was painting the house, it smelled like, in other words, a very unusual smell. Later I determined, from my independent determination, from my experience, that it was the smell of glue is what I figured out the smell was. Q. You came to the conclusion that the smell you smelled upon entering the house was glue? A. Yes. Q. Before you go on any further, did you first recall this smell as being glue when you walked [425] into the front door of the house? A. Well, when I immediately smelled something strange, I recalled the smell of glue, and it was my judgment it was glue. Q. And this was when you walked in the front door of the house? A. The very first thing, when I walked in the front door. Q.. Then what happened? A. As we proceeded on down the hallway and went into a door, which turned out to be his room, and the further we would go down the hall, the smell was much stronger. Q. This glue smell was much stronger? | A. Yes, it was. Q. As you went into Reagan Logue’s room? A. Yes. Q. His bedroom? 318 A. Yes. It was a very large room as compared to most bedrooms, and had one of these, what kind of paintings—psychodelic stuff all over the walls, dif- ferent to any room I had ever been in. Q. Was Reagan Logue present in the room at the time you went in? A. He was present at all times. [426] Q. Was Agent May also present? A. Yes. Q. Was the older lady also present? A. I think she stood in the doorway. We had quite abit of conversation with him. I wanted him to get dressed, and I stated I had a warrant for his arrest, and he said, “What do you mean, a warrant for my arrest?” Of course, I told him I did have, and it took him a little bit to get, to put his socks and shoes on, some four or five minutes. Q. Did you observe anything in the room other than the psychodelic paintings that was unusual? A. There was a coffee table, or low table in the room, and laying beside this table was a large paper sack with the top rolled down, and from that point the glue smell was even stronger. — Q. About how long did it take him to get dressed and get ready to go? A. Well, there was a little conversation at that point. His mother wanted to see the warrant, or this lady, I say she was his mother, this lady there in the house, and I told her I didn’t have the warrant in my hands, the warrant was in Laredo. She seemed to think I couldn’t [427] arrest him without the paper in my hands, and I assured her I could arrest him, and shortly after that we left the house. He went with me. OULIEELN, LEPINE SOT OPT ONE BAS, } err Ta NY 319 Q. Where did you take him after you left the house? A. We went straight to Commissioner Martin’s office. Mr. De Anda: Your Honor, the next question is —well, you are going to try oe the next question in evidence and I’m going to ebject to it as hearsay. Mr. Pain: Yes, I will try. Mr. De Anda: Well, go ahead and try it. Mr. Pain: Okay, “What happened there?” Mr. De Anda: Your Honor, the response to that question is a comment made by Commissioner Martin at the time which is rank hearsay, and is inadmis- sible, and I think Counsel will concede that it is hearsay, instead of saying what happened there, he answered something that the Commissioner Martin had said, and I think it is— The Court: —(Looking at instrument) I think it is hearsay. By Mr. Pain: ~ [428] Q. Did he conduct a hearing at that time? A. Yes, he did. I believe that somewhere along about this time, I believe that his mother must have called, or this lady at the house must have called Marvin Foster, the boy’s attorney. Q. The boy’s attorney? A. Yes, I think when we got there, either just before or immediately after we got there, Mr. Foster PY 320 called to Mr. Martin that he couldn’t be present, but that the boy wouldn’t make any statement, or wouldn’t even tell his name or anything, which the boy didn’t. He wouldn’t even give his name, wouldn’t even say anything. Q. Did Commissioner Martin conduct a hearing? A. Yes. Q. And found probable cause to bind the boy over? A. He knew the boy personally; he identified ee boy; he knew him. ‘f~ Q. And how long did this conference with Commis- sioner Martin take? A. Probably ten minutes, at the most. Q. After you had the conference or hearing with Commissioner Martin, what did you do? A. I took him to the Nueces County Jail. Q. You say the Nueces County Jail? [429] A. Yes. Q. Was Agent May or Valverde present with you at the time you were with Commissioner Martin? A. They were both present. Q. Were either one of them present at the time you took the boy from Commissioner Martin’s office to the Nueces County Jail? A. They were. In fact, we were in their car, the Customs Agents’ car. They both accompanied me to the jail, to the booking desk. Q. What did you do after you took the boy to the booking desk at the Nueces County Jail? A. There was a little conversation at the booking desk. He wouldn’t give the officer on duty taking the information down, he wouldn’t give him any in- Te cals gee re ra aa ea 4 “ formation. He said his name was God Logue, wouldn’t give his address, age, or anything. But the officer— 321 Mr. De Anda: —And to the remainder of that answer, he again goes into what the booking officers said, which is again hearsay. I don’t object to what Logue said, I think that is probably admissible under the circumstances of this case, but what the booking officer said, that would [430] be irrelevant to any issue, well, it might not be irrelevant, but it would be hearsay. The Court: Well— Mr. Pain: —It is hearsay, and we will leave it out. The “Court: It is kinda hard to tell when you don’t know what it is, but if you agree it is hearsay, I will accept that. By Mr. Pain: Q. Next question is—So someone there at the desk knew Reagan Logue? A. Yes, he had been in jail before. Q. What did you do then? A. I believe I went back to my office and continued with attending Court, I believe. Q. And you had nothing further to do with this particular lawsuit, or case, or Reagan Logue, for the remainder of that day, is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. Now what day was that, that this arrest hap- pened? A. This was on May the 22nd, 1968. 322 Q. Now the following day, did you take a trip any- where? A. Yes, on May 23rd, 1968, which was the following day, I left Corpus Christi about 9:30 A.M. to [431] transfer prisoners to, I believe I went to Galveston, and then came on in to the Houston Marshal’s office in Houston, and didn’t return to Corpus Christi until about 8:45 that afternoon. Q. That was the night of the 23rd of May, 1968? A. Yes, that’s right. Q. Did you have anything further to do with Reagan Logue for the remainder of that day? A. Not a thing. Q. Did you receive any information concerning Reagan Logue on the following day, that is, May the 24th, 1968? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was that information? A. Well, about 8:30 on the 24th, I was informed by telephone, I received a call from Mr. Tom Low- rance, Chief Jailer, that Reagan Logue had tried to commit suicide by inflicting wounds on his left arm on the evening before this. Q. You received a telephone call from Mr. Low- rance on the 24th that Reagan Logue had attempted to cut himself on the previous day, is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. What did you do then, if anything? [432] Mr. Bowers: I think that is a colloquy be- tween you and Mr. De Anda there, George. He says, “About 8:30 in the morning,” and he said 8:30 on the previous page. , 323 ] By Mr. Pain: Q. What did you do after receiving that telephone call from Tom Lowrance? A. Well, he told me where the boy was. He told me he was in the Memorial Hospital. He told me that he had, in fact, I couldn’t get hold of the Marshal that afternoon, and he had contacted Howard Vaught, and Mr. Vaught had told him to get hold of Casey Slocomb, Chief Deputy in Houston, which I understand he did. He called him by telephone and he was instructed to put a guard on the prisoner in the hospital, and I would take care of it when I got back. I would take charge when I got back from Houston. Q. This was about the message you received from Lowrance? A. Yes, he informed me of all this. Q. What did you do after that? A. Well, after I talked to Tom Lowrance, I went to Memorial Hospital to check on Logue’s condition. Q. Did you notice anybody Standing guard at the [433] time you went to the hospital at this time, Standing guard over Reagan Logue? A. Yes, we had, there was somebody standing guard, there was a Deputy Sheriff: Q. Why was that? A. Well, of course, Tom Lowrance had been in- structed to put a guard on the man to begin with by Chief Deputy Slocomb, which is customary. We always have a guard when we have a man in the hospital, we have a guard over him twenty-four hours a day. 324 Q. Why is that? A. To insure his safekeeping. Q. Because he is a prisoner? A. Yes, that’s right. Q. Because the security of the hospital may not be what the security of a jail is, is that one of the reasons? A. Well, unless a hospital is specifically equipped to hold a prisoner, yes. Any place I put a prisoner in a hospital, they are ‘definitely required to have a guard. — Q. Do you recall at the time you went to the hospital the first time to see Reagan Logue the identity of the person standing guard at that [434] time? A. Off-hand, I don’t recall. Q. Do you recall if it was Frank Reyna? A. I believe it was Frank Reyna. Q. Do you know Frank Reyna? A. Yes, he is a Latin boy that works at the jail, one of the jailers. Q. This is your independent recollection and you could be wrong on that, is that correct? A. Yes, I’m pretty sure it was Reyna who was there. Q. All right, when you arrived at the hospital; did you inquire of anyone about anything? A. Well, when I first arrived, I asked the nurse on the floor what room he was in, and she took me to the room where Logue was located. Q™Did you inquire of anyone as to what doctor had the care of Logue? A. I first asked the nurse what his condition was, and that I understood he had inflicted a wound on : PROVEN Mar i a ae SiR a 4 a — his arm, and she told me I should contact Dr. White. He was the physician that treated him before, when he arrived in the emergency room, and she told me Dr. White had gone off duty early in the morning and that he was probably home sleeping. So I asked her if [435] she would contact him by phone, actually get him on the phone, and she said she would, and did. Q. Was it your understanding at that time that Dr. White was the boy’s doctor? A. Yes, it was. Q. All right, and then what did you do? A. Well, I called Dr. White. He seemed to be a little bit irritated because I Supposedly woke him up, I don’t know whether he was asleep or not. Q. Before you proceed any further, at the time you called Dr. White, had you seen Reagan Logue in the hospital? A. Yes, sir, I didn’t talk with him. He was laying on the mattress on the floor, but I did not go into his room, and I saw him laying there. Q. What floor of the hospital was he on, do you recall? A. I believe the seventh floor. Q. And you went up there and you saw him before the time you called Dr. White? A. Yes, I did. Q. And did you not speak to Reagan Logue? A. I don’t recall that I said anything to him. I [436] believe he was just laying there. I don’t know whether he was asleep or what, but he was laying on the mattress. 325 326 Q. But at that time you went and made a telephone call to Dr. White, is that correct? A. That is correct. I didn’t make the call, the nurse made the call, and I picked up the phone and started talking to him after she got him on the phone. Q. When you called Dr. White, did you tell him who you were? A. Yes, I told him who I was. Q. What else did you tell him? A. Well, I asked him his condition, and he told me he had turned the case over to Dr. Gwin, a psychiatrist that I believe his family had contacted. I talked to Dr. White, and told him what my purpose of calling was, to find out why he was still in the hospital, and, of course, at this time he told me. well, he turned the case over to Dr. Gwin, the family had requested Dr. Gwin come,in and take charge of the case. And I asked him_if his injury, or his wound to his arm was sufficient to keep him in the hospital, if the wound was severe enough to keep [437] him in the hospital, and he informed me it was not. “I have nothing to do,” he said, “with the case now, because Dr. Gwin is in charge of the boy now.” Well, - I think I may have asked him the second time if the wound was sufficient to keep him in, that was the main purpose, to find out about the injury to his arm, and he said it was not sufficient to keep him in the hospital, as far as the wound itself. Q. Do you recall Dr. White telling you the boy should not be removed from the hospital? A. I don’t remember him saying anything like that. I do remember him saying about the boy’s — 327 mental condition, but other than that, him saying that he had a mental problem and that he had turned the case over to Dr. Gwin at the request of his family. Q. Was that the sum and substance of your con- versation? A. Yes, I didn’t taik to him but a short time. Q. At that point, what was your understanding as to the boy’s doctor? A. That Dr. Gwin was his doctor. Q. And that was as a result of what Dr. White told you? [438] A. Yes, I asked the nurse how to get ahold of Dr. Gwin, and she said, “If you will wait, he will be making his rounds in a few minutes.” Q. Did you ask the nurse if Dr. Gwin was the boy’s doctor? A. I believe I did. Q. Do you recall what her answer was? A. Yes, she said Dr. Gwin had been to see him and he would be back making his rounds in a very few minutes. Q. Did you see Dr. Gwin that morning? A. Yes, I waited and just a short time, I’d say no more than maybe fifteen minutes. Q. Did you talk to Dr. Gwin? A. I certainly did. Q. About Reagan Logue? A. I did. Q. Did Dr. Gwin acknowledge Reagan Logue was his patient? A. Yes, he did. He told me the family had con- daced him, and he may have told me he had talked 328 to Mr. Foster, I’m not sure. But somewhere in there, there was a conversation, I think he mentioned that Mr. Foster was his attorney, had contacted him, or his family had contacted Mr. [439] Foster. Q. In this personal conversation and conference that you had with Dr. Gwin, where was that, was that in a private room in the hospital? A. Yes, it was in a small room with a table, kinda of a long table, and Dr. Gwin was in a wheelchair. He had had some injury, he was in a wheelchair. Of course, at that time I didn’t know whether he was in a wheelchair at all times or not, because that was the first time I had ever seen him, and I think the last time I ever saw him. Q. Was anybody else present at this time? A. Yes, a friend of mine, Mr. Phil Clayton, who at that time I had spent the night with him the night before; he come with me to the hospital. Q. Where does Mr. Clayton live? A. He lives in Corpus Christi. Q.. Why did he accompany you on this particular mission? A. Well, I believe that morning that he and I had had coffee together, and I believe he possibly came to the office with me, and when I went to the hospital, I asked him to ride along with me. Q. Just a friendly association? [440] A. Yes. Q. He had nothing to do with the government? A. That is correct. Q. About how long did you have this eonference with Dr. Gwin? PLL MAI fT AN Ls SPF 329 A. Oh, I imagine we talked for fifteen or twenty minutes. Q. And were you talking about Reagan Logue all of that time? A. Yes. Q. Was the tenor of your conversation with Dr. Gwin friendly or unfriendly? A. It was very friendly. He was very nice, he was very cooperative and nice, Q. To the best of your recollection, there was no disagreement between you two? A. None whatsoever at all. I think I would have recalled if there had been. I would Say it was just the other way, he was very nice and very friendly. Q. What was it he told you about the boy during this conference? A. Well, he mentioned something about, I believe the boy’s mother, that he had treated the boy’s mother, that he had treated the boy’s mother, pos- sibly, his true mother, his real [441] mother, and that he had also treated this boy and he knew the history of the family. He knew that the boy was a user of drugs, he said something about marijuana, peyote, LSD, and I think he even acknowledged he knew the boy sniffed glue. ‘ Mr. De Anda: Ask one more. By Mr. Pain: Q. Do you recall if anything was mentioned dur- ing this conference about the boy’s release from the hospital? * j les pene : > oareay’ 330 A. He said he thought the boy should be, under the circumstances of him being in charge, he should be committed to an institution for rehabilitation. Q. Did the doctor bring this up at that time? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you say anything in reply to that? A. I think he asked me the question if, I think, “Don’t you have institutions for this purpose?” And I assured him we did have, but it would take a Court Order, and, I believe at this time he said that he would be glad to call the Judge and talk to him. I told him, well, if the boy had an attorney that I thought it would be the best thing for the attorney to contact the [442] U.S. Attorney in Laredo to obtain a Court Order. Q. Is there anything else that was mentioned dur- ing that conference with Dr. Gwin that you can recall right now that you have not mentioned? A. No, I don’t know, or I don’t recall anything. We talked quite abit about the boy and about what should be done to him. Q. After this conference with Dr. Gwin, what did you do? A. Well, I went back to the Marshal’s office in Corpus and called my supervisor, Gerald Jones, in Laredo. Q. Why did you call him? A. Well, I wanted to report to him the attempt of the boy to commit suicide, and tell him what I had done, and also to get his advice about getting this boy committed to an institution. Q. So the purpose of the call was to report the circumstances that had occurred, and to receive pos- sible further instructions, is that right? SPRL LESLIE LEE LE GIS 331 A. Yes, I believe about this time Mr. Foster came in the office that day. I was talking to Jerry, and I think that he and I had a conversat.on about this boy’s condition, and what should be [443] done to him, and I believe at that time Mr. Foster talked to Jerry, and I believe that Jerry told him at that time he would talk to the Assistant United States Attorney, Mr. Blask, I believe at that time was in Laredo. Q. Did you mention anything about guards, the requirements of guards to Deputy Jones? A. Yes, I did. I think there was something said about having guards at the hospital. Actually in this psycho-ward the doors were locked while I was at the hospital. I went to Logue’s room the second time with Dr. Gwin, and during this visit with Dr. Gwin, we went to his room, and I noticed there was not much control of the keys. In other words, some- body would come in and unlock the door and go in the room and leave the door unlocked, and at this point I thought it was very necessary to have a guard there to enforce his safekeeping. Q. Did you mention something to that effect to Deputy Jones? ' A. I did, I mentioned it to Jones that I thought there was loose key control, and I believe that was the words I used to him. Q. Did you make any recommendations and did he make [444] any suggestions to you? A. I made recommendations that we keep a guard, and he said, “Well, by all means,” to keep a guard there if I thought it was necessary to keep a guard there. 332 Q. When you say, “Keep a guard there”, does that necessarily mean a Deputy United States Marshal? A. No, we hire normally off-duty police officers in transporting prisoners, or keeping prisoners in the hospital, and it is usually someone we know per- sonally in handling prisoners, knows our rules and regulations of security of prisoners, which is nor- mally an officer off-duty. Q. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a U. S. Deputy Marshal to do this guarding? A. No, we have the authority to hire guards for the purpose of guarding prisoners. Q. Some type of peace officer? A. Normally an off-duty police officer. Q. Did you, after talking with Deputy Jones, call Deputy Slocomb? A. Yes, I did. Q. What did he tell him, excuse me, what did you tell him? A. I think I reported to him the circumstances of [445] what we had done, and what the doctor had recommended. Q. Did Deputy Slocomb give you any directions or information, or did he merely acknowledge receipt of your information? A. Well, the best that I recall, he just acknowl- edged, tald me to keep in contact with Jerry about what was going on. Q. Was there any discussion either between you - and Deputy Jones, or between you and Deputy Slo- comb, about making some arrangements at the County Jail? A. Yes, there was. ——a———— 333 Q. What were those discussions? A. Well, I think when I talked to Slocomb, it was mentioned that I should, if we could obtain a safe place to keep Logue, we should return him to jail. I don’t remember exactly at what point. Q. Did you Subsequently receive instructions con- cerning the conditions of the Nueces County Jail as far as receiving this prisoner? A. Yes, at this point I recall that my phone in the Marshal’s office was inoperative, Something was wrong with it, I had trouble because I [446] believe I received a call from the Marshal’s office in Laredo through the United States Clerk’s Office, and I be- lieve they called me at the phone, and he said he had been trying to get me. And I think at that point I found out that my phone was not performing, and I told him my phone was out, and he said he would call the jail himself from Laredo and talk direct to Corpus Christi. Q. Who was this call from, from Laredo? A. Jones. Q. What purpose was there in calling the jail in Corpus? A. To make arrangements to keep Logue. It was my understanding from the conversation with him later, that he did call, in fact, Tom Lowrance, the Chief Jailer, and talk to him about fixing a cell and a safe place to keep Logue. In fact, he told me he had talked to him and they were preparing a place. Q. Why was it necessary to especially prepare a cell for safekeeping of a prisoner like Logue? A. Well, I believe Dr. Gwin, he said that if we were going to bring the boy back to jail, we should —— gts 334 have a safe place to keep him because of [447] the attempt of his taking his life. q@. I think we have covered this before, but why was the boy taken from the jail to the hospital in the first place? A. Because he attempted to commit suicide and injured his arm. Q. By what means? A. I believe he used a razor blade, if I’m not mis- taken. I don’t recall if I actually knew what he used, I think it was a razor blade. Q. He tried to cut his arm? A. He did cut his arm, pretty severely. Q. And because of that he was taken from the Nueces Jail to the hospital in Corpus Christi? A. That’s right. Q. After Deputy Jones indicated to you that ar- rangements would be made at the jail for safekeep- ing, did you do anything then? A. Yes, I went to the jail. In fact, he instructed me to go to the jail and make an inspection of the cell. , Q. Of the cell Logue was to be put in? A. Yes. Q. Did you make that inspection? A. I did make that inspection. [448] Q. What did you look for? A Well, for any sharp instruments, anything that he could injure himself with, cut himself with. We, normally, in a cell like that, we strip everything out of it, any cups, or spoons, or sheets, or blankets, and just have the mattress is all. Q. Did you do that in this instance? Se ekkaaes aoe ak Se toe y s » 335 A. Yes. Q. Were there any sheets, blankets, spoons, or cups that you had to take out of this cell? A. No, they had already taken everything out. Q. The Sheriff’s Deputy had already taken care of the cell? A. Yes, the jail personnel. Q. And you went over there and you inspected it, and what was in the cell? v4. Just a bunk with a mattress, and, I believe, just a commode, just a jail type commode, it doesn’t have a lid or anything on it, and I believe a wash basin, the best I recall. Q. There was no pad on the bunk, just a mattress? A. Just a mattress. Q. And what else in the cell? A. Yes. [449] Mr. Pain: Excuse me, I read the question wrong— By Mr? Pain: Q. And that was in the cell? A. Yes. Q. No other loose objects? A. No. Q. Were there any light fixtures attached to a hanging cord from the ceiling? A. No, not that I recall. Q. What did you do after inspecting the cell that you anticipated Reagan Logue would be transferred to? 336 A. To the best of my recollection, I went back to the office and called Dr. Gwin. Q. All right, what did you tell him, or ask him? A. I told him we had made arrangements to keep Logue in the Nueces County Jail. They had prepared a cell, and that I had inspected it, and it was my judgment that it was a safe place to keep him. Q. What did he say then? A. He said that under these conditions he would release him, and I asked him if he would call the nurse on duty and so inform her, and he [450] said he would. Q. Did you tell the doctor that you had inspected the cell? eee ee A. Yes, I did. I told him at the same time that a Court Order was forthcoming, I had already been instructed by the Marshal in Laredo, my supervisor, that Judge Connally said he would issue such a Court Order to have him removed as soon as possible to an institution, and I had been informed by my superiors that they would remove him to an institu- tion as soon as possible. And he said under these con- ditions, I will release him to you. Q. And he did release him? A. Yes, sir, I went to the hospital about 3:15 that afternoon, and I checked with the nurse in charge on this floor, and she told me Dr. Gwin had called her and told her to release Logue to me. And shortly after that, I took him in my car back to the jail, and I again inspected the cell. Prior to putting him in the cell, I walked to the cell and checked it again, and they put him in the cell and locked him up, and I left. And I didn’t have any further contact 337 with him at all after that. [451] I went back to, that afternoon—I don’t remember exactly what time it was, but it was, I’m sure, after 4:30, and I went back to my duty station in Edinburg, or I left Corpus ' Christi in route to Edinburg. Q. Now this day you talked with the doctor, and inspected the jail, and talked with Dr. Gwin about the boy’s release, and assured the doctor that there was a Safe place to keep the boy, and also when you took the boy from the hospital to the jail upon the doctor’s release, this was all on May 24th, 1968, is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. Did you ever see Dr. White? A. No, sir, I did not. Q. The only contact you had with him was by telephone? A. Yes, that is right. Q. About how long was that telephone conversa- tion? A. Well, the best I recall, it : ceubaliy didn’t last over two or three minutes at the most. Q. And either during, or immediately after this telephone conversation with Dr. White, did you have the understanding that Dr. White was Reagan Logué’s doctor? [452] A. It was my understanding that Dr. White was the physician on duty in the emergency room when he was brought into the room for hospital treatment. I assumed he was still his doctor, if he treated him, until I was told by Dr. White, or pos- sibly one of the nurses. Q. I think you testified that Dr. White’s conversa- in Aes x ¢ - 338 tion with you was to the effect that Dr. Gwin was the boy’s doctor, and my question was, either during or right after this conversation over the telephone that you had with Dr. White, what understanding did you have as to the boy’s doctor? A. Dr. Gwin was his doctor. Q. And as far as anything to be done to the boy, or with the boy, was it your understanding that you would have to go through Dr. Gwin? A. That is absolutely right. * (Discussion held off of the record.) Mr. De Anda: Your Honor, this is cross examina- tion. ; The Court: All right. [453] CROSS EXAMINATION By Mr. De Anda: : Q. Mr. Bowers, you have mentionst a conversation with Dr, Gwin pertaining to the boy when you re- turned to the room in which the boy was confined in the hospital. Did you have occasion to see the room and examine it? 4 A. I stood in the door, just glanced in the room, I never did actually go in the room where the’ boy was. I just stood in the door and looked around. Q. Well, was it a regular type hospital room, or did it have any kind of additional security measures, like you see in the cell, was it more like a cell than a hospital room? _ 339 A. Well, I would say that it looked like a normal hospital room except it had a locked door, and they had taken all of the furniture out of the room, and there wasn’t nothin’ in the room except the mattress. I don’t recall what the window had, whether it was barred or not, I don’t recall, but I do know the room was stripped of furniture. Q. You do know the Memorial Hospital is where they [454] keep the psychiatric cases? A. I didn’t know it until I went up there, and that was my first and last time I had been up there. Q: And I believe you said earlier you were some- what concerned about the boy, about being sure the boy had a guard at the hospital at all times for his own safety, as well as the safety of others? A. My concern was for the security of the prisoner, that he did not escape. As far as his saféty in the room, the guard did not stay in the room with him, the guard stayed out the door. He was posted outside the door. As far as his safety in this particular room, why, I don’t think the guard actually had any func- tion there because they were going in and out of his room all the time. Q. The guard could hear anything that went on in the room? A. I believe he could hear anything that went on in the room. Q. Now in your conversation with Dr. White, you emphasized, I believe, his condition, the boy’s con- dition with reference to his arm and the wound that he had inflicted on his arm? [455] A. Yes. Q. And what your conversation with Dr. White was = 340 relating to, at least your questions related to the boy’s physical condition? A. Yes. Q. As distinguished from the boy’s mental condi- tion? A. Yes. Q. What is the reason that you distinguished be- tween the two conditions? What difference did it make to you why he was in the hospital, hospital- ized? A. Well, it was, I was very conterned why he was there. He was a prisoner in my custody, and if he had inflicted wounds on his arm, I wanted to know the condition of them. . Q. How about his mental condition, were you also interested in that? A. Certainly. Q. Would it have made any difference to you if he was confined to the hospital because of his mental condition, or confined in the hospital because of his physical condition, insofar as keeping him in the _ hospital was concerned? A. Well, I don’t know just exactly how to answer your question. At this point, of course, when [456] I went to the hospital, I thought he was confined to the hospital because of the injury to his arm. I, at this point, I didn’t know anything about’ his condi- tion other than the injury to his arm. Q. Well, you, somewhere along the way there, in your conversations with Dr. Gwin or Dr. White, or both, you became aware of his mental condition? A. Oh, yes, certainly. Q. And you were concerned about it? P —_— 341 A. Yes. \ Q. Is that right? A. Oh, yes, certainly. Q. Did it make any difference to you whether he was in the hospital because of his mental condition, or because of his arm, insofar as your decision to let him remain in the hospital? A. Well, it wasn’t my decision to make, to leave him in the hospital. My superiors made that decision. I did not make that decision. Q. So far as you would—excuse me, let me start over—so far as you know, would that fact enter into _ your superior’s making that decision, whether or not he was in there for a physical condition or whether he was in there [457] for a mental condition? A. It Was the policy to keep a person in the jail, or the place we have a contract to detain our prison- ers, and not to keep them in the hospital unless it is absolutely necessary, unless the doctor orders him kept in the hospital. Certainly, if the man cuts him- self, he would have to go to the hospital for treat- ment, but immediately upon release from the hos- pital, or from the doctor, we normally take him back to the jail. And I think even with a mental condition, if you have a safe place to keep them in, if the doctor Says it is okay to return the man back to the jail, I would treat the physical condition the Same as I would a mental condition, if the doctor released him back, to go back to jail, I would return him back to jail, of course. Q. Were you under the impression at that time that if a man had a mental condition, whether it was 342 one that required hospitalization or not, but didn’t have a physical condition that required hospitaliza- tion, that you had to take him back to jail? A. Would you state that question again? [458] Q. All right, were you under the impression at that time, either because of what your superiors told you, or because of your own interpretation of your rules and regulations, that you were under the im- pression at that time that if a man was only suffer- ing from a mental condition, as distinguished from a physical condition, that you would have to take him back to jail regardless of whether or not he ought to be in the hospital? A. No, I think I still say it would be up to the doctor, what the doctor would say. Q. All right, in other words, if the doctor said there is nothing physically wrong with this man, his arm doesn’t require any kind of hospitalization, but he is mentally disturbed, and because he is mentally disturbed he ought to be in the hospital, if the doctor had told you that, then you would make no effort to take him out of the hospital? A. Mr. De Anda, I couldn’t take him out unless the doctor released him. I certainly wouldn’t take a man from the hospital and take him back to jail unless the doctor released him. I say this, if it’s, whether it’s physically or [459] otherwise, if he re- leased him to take him back to jail, certainly, I would take him back to jail. Q. Did you have any problems with Dr. White or Dr. Gwin about taking this man out of the hospital? A. I had no problem with Dr. White. I only talked with him a very short time. I had no problem with Dr. Gwin at all. cael Q. You didn’t have to convince Dr. Gwin that you had to take the man back to jail? A. No. Q. Why is it that you were taking all these pre- cautions and calling back to Dr. Gwin after you had been instructed to take the man back to jail? A. I had been instructed by my superiors not to take him out of the hospital unless I had a release from Dr. Gwin, very specific instructions, that is why I called him back. Q. Well, when was it Dr. Gwin finally released the man to go back to jail, as best you recall, if he did release him to go back to jail? A. He did release him. Q. All right, that is your version of it. Now if [460] Dr. Gwin said the only reason he released him was because he felt he had no choice, because of his con- versations with you or some other member of the Marshal’s office, would you agree with that state- ment? A. No, sir. Q. All right. A. I certainly wouldn’t, and I don’t think Dr. Gwin Said that. He didn’t say that to me. Q. Now— A. —And the point of Dr. Gwin releasing the man, there is no doubt he released him. I talked to him personally and he said if we had a safe place to keep him, he would release the man. Q. Now you say you had a conversation in Mr. Foster’s presence with Mr. Jones, a phone conversa- tion? 343 344 A. I don’t recall whether I had it when Mr. Foster came in the office—I believe that—I don’t know whether I was talking to him, talking to Jones when he came in the office, or whether I called him after he came in. It is possible I may have talked to him and called him back when Mr. Foster came in. Q. Do you recall in that conversation mentioning [461] you hadn’t been home for a couple of week- ends, but you would be willing to stay in Corpus Christi and guard Mr. Logue? A. I don’t know how long I had not been home. . That is too long to remember. On several occasions I would be gone from home two or three weeks at a time. Whether I made the comment I would stay there and guard him, it is possible I made that re- mark, I don’t recall that I did. Q. All right. A. It is for sure that if I couldn’t have obtained a guard, I would have been there guarding him. Q. Well— A. —It would have been my duty to. Q. And were you trying to convince Mr. Jones to permit you to stay there and guard Mr. Logue, or to keep him in the hospital? A. Mr. De Anda, I don’t recall. I know I was con- cerned about the young man. Q. All right. A. I can’t—certainly, I have to be frank with you, I was definitely concerned about him. Whether I made the remark I would stay there, I don’t recall. Q. Did you tell Mr. Jones that the doctors had [462] stated the boy ought to remain in the hos- pital? = 3 : 345 A. I don’t recall making that statement. I know that the doctor did say that he should Stay there if we didn’t have a safe place to keep him. Q. Did you, did the doctor tell you he should stay there unless he was transferred to another medical facility? Do you recall him telling you that? A. No, I remember him Saying he should be trans- ferred to a mental institution for observation as soon as possible. Q. All right, didn’t the doctor tell you that he ought to be transferred from the hospital to some other mental institution or medical facility, do you recall that, Mr. Bowers? A. I believe that particular statement was made before we discussed about a safe place to keep him. Q. In other words, the doctor did not recommend that you take him to any place other than a medical facility— A. —Unless we had a safe place to keep him. Q. Did he specify, did the doctor Specify what he meant by a safe place to keep him? [463] A. I don’t recall him actually laying down the ABC rules, or anything; he just took, I took it he meant a place without instruments that he could in- flict wounds on himself, or harm himself, that is what I— Q. —Did you also take it to mean he ought to be under any sort of observation? A. I don’t recall him Saying anything about he should be kept under observation. I think as a pracai- cal matter, that a person under those conditions should be kept under observation. I don’t recall him Specifically saying that. @ 3 + ang — > 346 Q. In other words, you believe he should have been kept under observation while in jail, under the con- ditions? : A. Yes, I think he should have. In fact, I think that was, we understood that he would be under observa- tion. Q. Now there were some discussions at the jail that this would be one of the conditions that would make the cell safe, would that—strike that and let me start again— Now, there was some discussion at the jail that this would be one of the conditions that would make the cell safe, would be that he would be kept under constant [464] . observation? A. I don’t know whether the word “constant” was used, but that someone would be watching him, or he would be under observation. Whether it would be constant observation, I don’t recall that ever being used. Q. May not have used the words, but somebody ought to be watching him while he was there? A. Yes. Q. Was this suggestion made to you, Mr. Bowers? A. The best I recall, I believe that when Deputy Jones talked to Tom Lowrance, there was some men- tion of putting him in a cell where he could be ob- served, or possibly put him with a trustee in a cell next to him where they could watch him, and that was my understanding of what would be done. Q. Of course, you were aware he had this bandage, this hand and arm wrapped in this bandage? A. Yes. Q. And you were aware of the kind of bandage it was? Ce ae oe a ee eee ane RET RGA TER 347 A. No, I wasn’t aware of what kind of bandage it was. I didn’t know whether it was just a—I have thought quite often since then, trying [465] to re- call what kind of bandage he had on his arm, and I honestly couldn’t tell you whether it was a wrap- around or whether it was a, what do you call it, a bandage they make up— Q: —Gauze pad? A. Right, with tape on it. Q. You know now that it was a long bandage? A. I don’t know, but I heard he had a bandage that was strong enough to hold his weight. Q. All right. A. May I say something off of the record? Mr. De Anda: Well, we decided for you not to say anything off of the record. And the next question is— By Mr. Anda: Q. As far as you know, was anybody in the Marshal’s Office, either you or anyone else, under the impression that you had no funds or authority pro- | vided to keep a man in the hospital for a mental condition that was under your care and charge? A. Well, it has been my understanding that as a practical matter, that if you have got a man in the hospital, as soon as you obtain a release from the doctor, you should put him back in the [466] jail *pécause keeping him in the hospital is a tremendous cost to the taxpayers.. Q. You didn’t answer my question, but maybe—so far as you know, were either you or anybody else in the Marshal’s Office connected with this transaction, 348 under the impression that you could not keep a man in a hospital, like Memorial Hospital, strictly for a mental condition? A. I’m going to answer your question exactly like I did before, that it was my understanding, my only understanding would be that you would not keep a man in a hospital for any reason if you could keep him in the jail; if you could return him to the jail since the doctor released him. I know nothing about the difference between a physical and a mental con- dition, or about what funds are available or any- thing, except that trying to get the man to stop the expenses as soon as practical, and as soon as the doctor releases him. Q. As I understand you, and tell me if I understand you right, you see no difference of anyone that is in- dicated otherwise, but whether a man is in the hos- pital, if he be in the hospital for [467] a mental condition or for a physical condition, he could come out of the hospital if the doctor said it was proper for him to do so? A. That is right. Q. And if the doctor said it was not proper for him to be out of the hospital, that he should stay in the hospital even though he might not have any- thing physically wrong with him, it might be a mental situation— A. —That is true, the doctor, what he would say would be the determining factor as far as I am concerned, and has always been the determining factor when I put a man in the hospital or take him out. Q. Well, when was it that the doctor finally told To nia aie eta! PRAM HEIR I ey MY y . 4 349 you that it was all right to release him from the hospital? ) A. When I called him and told him we had a safe place to keep the man. Q. From the jail, you called him from the jail? A. No, I think I called him from the Office. Q. All right, you say that every time you observed him laying in the hospital, he was lying on this mattress? A. Mr. De Anda, the only time I actually recall [468] seeing the boy was when I first went to the hospital that morning. Q. All right. A. And looking in the door, and he was laying on this mattress. Whether he was asleep or what, I, I don’t remember having any conversation with him whatsoever. Q. Anyway, he was laying on the mattress whether he was awake or asleep? A. Then when the doctor, Mr. Gwin, went upstairs to look at the boy, I recall I went back with him, and I think I stood at the door. I don’t, I can’t recall whether he had any conversation with him or not. Q. Where was the boy then? A. Well, the best I recall, he was still laying on the mattress. Q. All right, now when you went in to get him to take him to jail, did you do that by. yourself, or did someone go with you? A. Well, I actually took him myself, but there was a Deputy on duty there guarding at the time, I don’t recall his name. Q. It would be someone from the Sheriff’s Office? 350 A. Yes, it was one of the Deputy Sheriffs-from the [469] Sheriff’s Office. Q. Now when you went in to get him, was he still laying on the mattress? A. I don’t recall whether he was laying on the mattress at that time or not. He was in the room, I know that, but I don’t recall. ; Q. Did you have to assist him in any way to take him to jail? A. No, other than just—you mean carry him or anything like that? 3 Q. Carry. A. No, I didn’t have to carry him. I believe that he was possibly kinda wobbly on his feet, or some- thing, but I didn’t have to carry him. He went under his own power. Q. If I remember, the doctor said something about him being under heavy sedation— A. —It’s possible he could have been. Q. Did you have to assist him, not in a sense you had to carry him, but in a sense you hadsto help him along? I don’t mean you were fighting, you say he was wobbly, was he wobbly enough to where you had to hold him up? A. I didn’t have to hold him up. I may have had to lead him, maybe put my arm under his arm, but [470] I know he went under his own power. The best I recall, he was a little wobbly, and possibly might have been under sedation, I don’t know. He did walk by himself, I know. Q. Did you have any eoueotaations with his mother there at the hospital? g 351 A. Yes, I believe that there was a lady, this was a different lady than was at the house when I ar- rested him, and it was my understanding this was his real mother. She was concerned about his clothes, I believe, and I told her, because when I took him from the hospital, I took him with his pajamas. He had on, I believe, a short-sleeved shirt and short pants, and she was concerned about his clothes. And I told her just to keep his clothes and she could bring them to the jail. I believe she wanted to ride with him and I told her she couldn’t. We didn’t have very much of a conversation. I think the best I recall she was con- cerned about his clothes. In fact, I think she had took his clothes home to wash them for him, and she had brought them baek to him and wanted to know what to do with them. Q. Do you recall telling Mr. Foster that you had [471] been advised by Dr. Gwin when you were there in your office in this telephone conversation, and you saw Mr. Foster walk in, do you recall telling Mr. Foster that Dr. Gwin had told you that under no circumstances should the young man be returned to the County Jail, but that he should be retained in the hospital under the doctor’s care? A. I don’t. recall making that statement. I may have said the doctor didn’t want him taken out of the hospital unless we had a safe place to keep him. Dr. Gwin was very concerned about him, there is no doubt about it. Q. I know this happened some time back, Mr. Bowers, and I’m not trying to badger you or anything. A. I don’t recall that specific conversation. Q. But you do know, and you do remember that | Be i id Loft vay 352 Dr. Gwin was quite ed about the young man going anywhere other to another hospital? A. Yes, he was. In fact, I think Mr. Foster—in fact, the fact is I think Mr. Foster, we all were. Q. I'see,.and you were concerned enough about it to where you went to the jail and made a visual in- spection of the cell itself? 3 [472] A. Yes, I sure did. Q. And in fact, you really, did you make two in- spections? A. Yes, I made one just after I took him upstairs, and while we were holding him kind of in the run- around, I went back and checked the cell again be- cause, the best I recall, the door had been left open. Q. And the reason was Dr. Gwin had expressed all his concerns to you, and also because you knew the boy had already tried to kill himself, so you knew he was serious about suicide? A. There was no doubt in my mind he was. Q. Yes, and it was your understanding when you left him there in the County Jail, that he would be kept under a sort of surveillance or observation while he was there? A. That was my understanding, yes. Q. And.that, plus the fact that he was in this cell where there appeared to be nothing with which he could injure himself, is what made you tell the doc- tor that you had a safe place for him? A. I told him I thought, in my judgment, we had a safe place to keep him. [473] Q. That was because of these facts we have talked about? A. Yes. IR NNR SHH TTR TOE ; ¥ r ’ | ee. ‘ re 353 Q. And had the cell contained foreign objects and things, or had he not been under observation or sur- veillance, then you would not have considered it as a safe place? A. That is correct. Q. And you would not. have made that statement to Dr. Gwin? A. I certainly wouldn’t. Q. Who was it that instructed you to return the prisoner to the jail, Mr. Bowers? A. Well, I don’t recall of anybody instructing me to take him back, other than my instructions were to go make an inspection of the jail to see if the cell was safe. I had been told that by my supervisor, that he had contacted the jailer and that a safe place would be prepared and they would watch him and take care of him. Q. That was Mr. Jones? A. Yes. Q. Mr. Slocomb is a Chief Deputy? A. Yes. Q. And what would Mr. Jones be? [474] A. Supervisor. Q. And you would be working under him? A. Yes. Q. And all your decisions you made, and all the things you did, and all of your actions pertaining to Mr. Logue and the removal of Logue from the hos- pital, and his confinement in jail, all these things that we have talked about, you did as a U. S. Mar- shal, a Deputy Marshal? A. Yes. 354 Q. And it was in the scope of your authority and your employment? A. Yes, sir. Q. When you first arrested Logue at his home, you say he had to dress; how was he dressed when you first saw him? A. He just had on a pair of levis“ Q. No shirt? A. No shirt. Q. No undershirt? A. No undershirt, no shoes or socks. Q. You mentioned something about a brown paper sack in the room, did you look at it, or look in it? A. I think I picked it up and smelled of it. It [475] was empty. It was just a large paper sack, about a medium shopping bag size, with the edges turned down about a third of the way down. There wasn’t anything in it, just smelled real strong of glue. Q. Would you say the whole house smelled strongly of glue? A. Yes, immediately on coming in the front door in the hallway, you could smell the smell, and as I got to the room, it was a little stronger. Q. You didn’t have any conversation with him or with his mother or anyone there in the house about the glue smell? A. No, I certainly didn’t. Q. All right. A. I just observed this, and the fact, I think I men- tioned it to the Customs Agents while we were there, made some remark about it. Q. You say that whenever you got to the jail, that Logue identified himself as God Logue? RARE NR IS 3 Y - 355 A. Right, (spelling) G-O-D is what he said. Q. Is that how he spelled it? A. Yes, he spelled it out. Q. Then I believe you said something about— Mr. De Anda: —Time out, let me see here [476] what I asked, Judge, if I might. That’s going into the matter that the Court excluded, and I’m going to skip this question. Mr. Pain: Your Honor, it’s his own question. ‘ Mr. De Anda: Well, I don’t care whose question it is. Mr. Pain: I think he should be allowed to read his own questions that he asked. Mr. De Anda: I will read my questions, the ques- tions I would not object to the answers, Your Honor. The Court: You said the Court excluded? Mr. De Anda: Yes, sir, with reference to the volun- tary, or comments, Judge, when he was first booked at the, this was a discovery, discovery deposition, and I don’t think I am bound to read every bit of it. He can read it if he wants to, and if the Court rules it is admissible— The Court: —I think you can get it that way, I _ just don’t know— Mr. De Anda: —Judge, let’s go ahead and I will read it, that will save time. 356 [477] The Court: All right. By Mr. De Anda: Q. Then I believe you said something about the jailer there saying, well, he didn’t have to get any information from him because he had the informa- tion? A. He said he wouldn’t give his address, his age, or anything, any normal thing that they ask a man, and he said, “Well, it’s okay, we have got his report back; we have had him a couple of weeks ago.” Q. And was Logue’s demeanor at the time that of @ person mentally off, he wasn’t just trying to be a smart guy? A. No, Mr. De Anda, I would say he was pretty high. Q. In other words, his reactions and his responses were not that of a wise guy? A. No, it was— Q. —But rather a man, or a person who did not have possession of his mental faculties for whatever reason there might have been? A. Well, I don’t know exactly how to answer your question. He was not in his normal state. He was under the influence of something. Q. It was an abnormal reaction rather than a [478] resentful reaction to the questioning? A. Well, I think he was resentful to the fact he was being arrested, and he didn’t know why he was being arrested. This case, I understand, was a con- spiracy case he was involved in, and the fact, I don’t believe he was actually caught with this marijuana, and he possibly didn’t understand the circumstances STATOR AP SEIN TS OT “4 Lk — of conspiracy charges, and I think that he was con- cerned with his case he had pending the next day before Judge Roberts, and that, and the fact he was being taken to jail. He was upset, but I wouldn’t say he was belligerent, or trying to be smart or anything. Q. Now at home when you arrested him, you did not know him? A. No, I had never seen him before. Q. Did you ask him who he was? A. Yes, when he came to the front door I asked if he was Reagan Logue, yes.. Q. He did acknowledge that? A. Yes, he did. Q. All right, when you talked to Dr. Gwin the last time that you talked to him, before getting Logue out of jail, I believe you went into some [479] de- tail about describing to Dr. Gwin the surroundings and the situation that existed in the jail, and the conditions under which Logue would be confined? A. No, sir, I don’t remember going into detail with anything other than telling him I had inspected the cell, and I considered it a safe place to keep him. Q. I believe you mentioned also the fact that he would be kept under surveillance, those were the things you talked to him about? A. Yes. Q. And it was after that, that Dr. Gwin told you, well, it would be all right to get him out of ‘the hos- pital? . A. He said, “Under those circumstances, I will re- lease him to you.” Q. All right, did you ever talk to Mr. Vaught, How- 357 = a ard Vaught, about this situation while Reagan was still in the hospital? A. Mr. De Anda, I don’t remember when I talked to Mr. Vaught. I do know I had a conversation with him concerning this boy. My understanding, I be- lieve he had had the boy on a, maybe probation, or probation investigation, pre-sentence [480] investi- gation on the boy. I do recall having some conver- sation about the boy, and I remember at the time I was concerned about the boy. I recall my conversa- tion with him concerned his call to Chief Deputy Slocomb and with Mr. Lowrance, the Chief Jailer, and possibly there was some other conversation con- cerning Mr. Logue about it, but I don’t recall. Q. Didn’t Mr. Vaught suggest to you that Logue should not be returned to jail, but rather kept in the hospital? A. I don’t recall him making that statement. He possibly could have, but I don’t recall it. I don’t think that, well, not that I wouldn’t have listened to Mr. Vaught’s suggestion along that line, but I don’t think he would have—what he would have said would have made any difference because it was up to the doctor. I won’t say he didn’t say it, but I don’t recall him Saying it. Q. I understand you took your orders from Mr. Slocomb and from Mr. Jones, and if there was a conflict between theif orders and Mr. Vaught’s sug- gestions, or orders, or what you may want to call them, you would have listened to your [481] super- iors, that was your obligation? A. That is right. 358 PL LEEST LOA NNT A OM ert ti +3 t ra 359 Q. As a matter of fact, if your superiors told you to take Logue out of jail, regardless of what Dr. Gwin said, you would have taken him out of jail? I mean you would have taken him out of the hospital, ex- cuse me? A. No, I don’t believe I would have. Q. In other words— A. —I don’t think, to begin with, my superiors would have told me to take a man from a doctor’s care without the doctor’s okay. They would never have told me that. If they had, I think I would have —I don’t think I would have taken him out under those circumstances because I was directly respon- sible for the man, or at least I felt I was. I was on the scene and, was there, but they wouldn’t have told me that. Q. I’m not saying they did, I’m just saying if they had. A. All right. Q. Did you talk to anyone else other than Mr. Slocomb and Mr. Jones about this problem, about Logue and his confinement in the hospital, and his removal to the jail? [482] A. I’m sure I had conversations with several people. Q. I’m sorry, nobody else in the Marshal’s’ Office? A. Not that I recall. Q. All right, now what conversations do you re- call you had with Mr. Slocomb? How did he enter into any direct conversations with you? A. After I reported all of this to my superior, Jones, in Laredo, he instructed me to report this to Chief Deputy Slocomb, which I did. 360 Q. Now by “this”, what do you mean, what was it that he told you to report to Slocomb? A. The fact that the boy had, well, he already knew the boy had attempted suicide, but he told me to call him and let him know what had happened, what the doctor said, and inform him about this, the efforts to obtain a Court Order to remove the boy to an institution. Mr. De Anda, before we can remove a prisoner at all under the set-up at that time, and I understand it is the same set-up, we have to go through what we call a Prisoners Coordinating outfit in Washington, which authorizes the movement of these prisoners in Washington. And I believe my con- versation [483] with Mr. Slocomb was to report to him what we were trying to do, or what we were attempting to do, where he could let the people in Washington know that there was this pending Court Order, they could make arrangements for trans- portation for the man. Mr. Slocomb was to let them know what we were trying to do, get this man re- moved. Q. That is, take him to the mental facility, to a medical facility? A. Yes. Q. It had nothing to do with his removal from the hospital to the jail? A. I am sure it had something to do with that, too, the whole thing. Q. You also talked with Mr. Slocomb about a de- termination as to whether or not he should be re- moved from the hospital to the jail? A. No, I don’t remember talking to him about whether he should be removed or not. EMC OE ET IST GETS INEM AY STEIN TEP coe “y ——— - | 361 Q. Well, did you talk to Mr. Jones about removing him from the hospital to the jail? A. I’m sure in our conversations we had quite a bit of discussions about it. Q. In other words, your conversations pertaining to the decision to remove Reagan Logue from the [484] hospital and return him to jail, were with Gerald Jones? A. No, with Dr. Gwin. Q. All right, you had no conversations with Jones after that decision? A. Oh, I’m certain that we talked about taking him back to jail. Q. All right. A. I don’t think there is any doubt about that, but the decision of whether to remove him or not, I don’t think that was our decision to make. It was, I think, Dr. Gwin’s decision. Q. So you didn’t talk about that, or clear it with him, or anything, because that was Strictly a de- cision between you and Dr. Gwin? A. Well, my first conversation, and my, in my con- versation with Dr. Gwin, we discussed the fact of getting this boy to an institution as soon as pos- sible, and where we would keep him in the mean- time. Q. Yes, and—pardon me— A. —And he said if we had a safe place to keep him in the jail, if there was a safe place there, he would release him if we were sure it was safe. And this information was conveyed to [485] Jones and to, I’m sure to Slocomb, both. Q. What did Jones say about it? 362 A. Well— Q. —If you recall. A. Well, at this point I think it is about the time my phone went out, and he said, when I talked to him in the Clerk’s Office, he said, “I'll take care of it.’ And in the meantime, I was getting the phone men to work on the phone, and somewhere, in a couple of hours, we had the phone working and we had the conversation. I believe that is when Mr. Fos- ter was in there and it was still working. Q. And these were conversations with J ones? A. Yes, we talked, I’m sure, four or five times that day. Q. Now your conversations with Slocomb did not pertain to this business about getting him out of the hospital and putting him in jail, but rather pertained to getting him transferred to a medical facility, a federal medical facility? A. No, that is not correct. I think we probably talked about both things. Q. All right. A. Rather than just one. [486] Q. Do you remember anything specific about your conversation with Mr. Slocomb pertaining to Reagan’s removal from the hospital and return to jail? A. Other than the fact he said to be sure you get a release from the doctor, be sure the doctor releases him to you before you take him back. In fact, the best of my recollection is, that was my instructions from both of my superiors. Q. All right, then, let me get one other thing PSY ERA REI NERS LAM HAI BIN MA SI ; s straight, Mr. Bowers, as I understand it, no one in- structed you to take Reagan Logue back to jail. This was done by you, strictly based on your negotiations and discussions with Dr. Gwin? A. No, I couldn’t say that. Q. I thought that is what you said. How do you want to qualify that statement? A. Well, I had no specific instructions from any- body about taking\the boy back to jail, or leaving him in the hospital, or anything. As I stated before, the normal procedure is, when a person is committed, a prisoner is committed to the hospital, that you, as soon as it is practical, and as soon as the doctor will [487] release the man, is that you take him back to the institution that you take him out of, as a prac- tical matter. And this is something we always do, and always is assumed, is understood, and as far as any- body making a decision to bring him back, I don’t recall anybody making a decision Saying, “Take this man back.” But since the doctor released him, we would take him back, and I didn’t Say anybody gave specific orders to take him out of the hospital. Q. Now in the usual case, does the doctor, or have someone call at the hospital, have someone call the Marshal’s Office and say, “This man is going to be released,” or make arrangements to pick him up, or how is that done? A. It is handled all kinds of ways. It is owing to what hospital that you are connected with. I would Say that if I was in my home station where I know the doctors, know them personally, and if I had a man in a hospital, he would probably tell me; if I didn’t know the doctor, I probably would call him 363 364 and ask him when I could have this man and so forth. Q. You stated that you would call the doctor and then the doctor might tell you, “Well, I will [488] advise you when he is ready to be released, or I will have your office notified,” is that the usual way it is handled? A. Well, L.can’t say that it would be, Mr. De Anda, because I say, again, it is whatever the arrangements are that you have, or possibly the understanding that you have with the different institutions or different hospitals, whether you would call the doctor or he would call you. I don’t think that there is any policy as far as— Q. —I just wondered. Now, let me ask you this question—you say first you called Dr. White and determined that his arm did not require, his arm wound did not require hospitalization at that time? A. Yes. Q. And then you called Dr. Gwin? A. I didn’t call Dr. Gwin; I waited until he made his rounds. Q. You went to the hospital? A. I was at the hospital at this time. I was on the floor at the nurse’s station where Logue was located when I talked to Dr. White. All I had to do was sit down and wait until he got there. [489] Q. Now your purpose in going to the hospital the first time was what? A. To check on his condition, how he was. I mean, I had a prisoner that had been taken out of jail while I was gone, and he was committed to the hos- pital and had a guard on him. ) 365 Q. So after you talked to Dr. Gwin the first time and he told you that this man’s mental condition was serious— A. —That’s right— Q. —certainly at that time he didn’t indicate to you that he was going to release the man? A. Mr. De Anda, I don’t know when the conversa- tion took place pertaining to releasing the man. He was concerned about getting him committed to an institution for observation as soon as possible. There was quite a bit of mention about a Court Order, about his attorney, Mr. Foster, to contact the Assistant U. S. Attorney in Laredo, to obtain a Court Order from Judge Connally. It was possible there was a conver- Sation about releasing him from the hospital and putting him back at that time, but I don’t recall when we talked about it. Q. When was the first time you recall it was [490] mentioned, that he be taken from the hospital and back to jail? | : | A. I don’t recall when it was. It was either at this conversation, or I talked to him only on the phone once, or twice on the phone, but at sometime we did discuss it. Q. And what did you say, well, Doctor, when you discussed it with him—‘“Doctor, I am ready to take this fellow back to jail, I will find a safe place for him”? Something of that nature, or, “I want you to release him”? _A. I don’t recall how the conversation came about. I just remember generally the doctor was concerned about him, and concerned that he would be kept in - 366 a safe place, and that he would be removed as soon as possible to an institution. But I don’t remember exactly the— Q. —Mr. Bowers, you have been referring to a statement— A. —I think you have a copy of it— Q. —and just‘so we will be sure, we will go ahead and attach this to your deposition. A. You can attach a copy, but that is my personal copy. Q. All right. ' [491] A. That is all I have got on this case. Q. You also brought some other papers with you. q A. That is my logs for that particular month. I 3 will give you the logs that pertain to that day. 3 Q. Do the logs for that particular day, here are : the logs for the three days involved, the 22nd, the 23rd, and 24th— A. —Those logs represent expenses involved, and normally they are not in detail of all the things I: do, but, for instance, on that log, I don’t believe I showed I went to the jail and made that inspection, but I did. But I don’t think I showed it on my log, the best I recall; it didn’t involve any miles, or not very much. - Q. I want to be sure I understand everything on there. Let me ask you this—on the Daily Log for May the 24th, you make mention, there is a comment, “C-O-M-M”, is that, “Committed Logue to Nueces County Jail, instructed jail personnel as to security for the above prisoner,” and those were the instruc- tions you have been talking about, the safe place to ib Salty 5 ii ice BIG HES LEAT 367 keep him, and keep him under Surveillance and ob- servation while he was in jail? [492] A. Yes. Q. That is what you are making reference to on this Daily Log for May the 24th? A. Yes, sir. Q. All right, well, I will just—I don’t know if they will be of any value to us, but I suppose we can have a copy of these attached to the deposition. Also, do you have any other written memoranda of any kind that pertain to this event? A. No, I don’t. ' Q. All right, have you made any other statement, Mr. Bowers, written statement? A. Yes, I made a Statement sometime after this. I made a statement to the F.B.I. Agent Crossett at Laredo. I don’t have a copy of that, and I couldn’t tell you other than he asked me questions pertaining to this event. Q. I see, but there was a written statement and you signed it? A. I don’t recall whether I Signed a written state- ment or not, I just couldn’t tel] you. Q. Did he reduce it to writing in your presence? A. I don’t think so, I don’t recall. Q. All right, Mr. Bowers, do you recall any [493] conversations at all pertaining to funds that might be available to keep Reagan Logue in the hospital, or the lack of funds for that purpose because of his mental condition? A. No, I would have no knowledge of what funds were available. I may have said something about get- ting the man back in jail, as far as the cost is con- _ 368 cerned, but as far as funds are concerned, I would have no knowledge what funds would be available for anything, other than the fact— Q. —But you don’t remember getting into any con- versation with them about it? A. No, other than the fact as I stated before, that it would co& Forty-eight Dollars a day for a guard. Q. I’m not talking about the economy aspect of it, were you worried about the economy? A. The man’s condition, his safety and treatment is the first concern. But at the point where he can be removed, and for all practical purposes, I think that he ought to be removed. Q. I understand that, Mr. Bowers, but other than any conversation about the cost or economy, that 3 was not mentioned? [494] A. No. Q. There is nothing that you can recall that tran- spired to the effect, “Look, we just don’t have any : allocation or any money to keep a man in jail be- : cause he is mentally ill,” there was nothing like that? . A. I never said anything about not having any : money because I would have no knowledge of that. : Q. I’m saying, there was no conversation about ; that fact? A. No. a Mr. Pain: Your Honor, there is about three, three or four questions on Redirect Examination, it con- tinues— The Court: Let’s go ahead and finish it. 369 [495] REDIRECT EXAMINATION By Mr. Pain: Q. When you took Reagan Logue from the hospital to the jail, how was he dressed? A. From the hospital to the jail? He had on a pair of shorty pajamas and a sport shirt that goes with it, short-sleeved. Q. And that is all he had on? A. Yes. Q. And that was the amount of clothes that he had on at the time he was put into the jail, is that cor- rect? A. Yes. Q. Now this report that you have periodically re- ferred to in refreshing your recollection, it does not necessarily contain all of what you have testified, does it. A. No, it does not. This is just a report that I made to the Marshal concerning this incident. Q. This-report, in the way you have used it today, is merely to refresh your recollection of the times and So forth, is that correct? } A. That’s right, as far as certain times of the day, I didn’t recall. I knew it was in the [496] morning, but I didn’t recall exactly what time until I looked at the report. Q. And your independent recollection will supple- ment whatever is in the report? A. Yes. Mr. De Anda: And then there’s a little more re- cross— 370 RECROSS EXAMINATION By Mr. De Anda: Q. One other question, do you recall when you made this written statement that we have been re- ferring to, this report we have been referring to, Mr. Bowers? A. Dol recall what date? Q. Yes, sir. A. No, but it was just shortly after this happened, very shortly after, because I would have it, and it is a requirement of the Marshal’s Office when any- ’ thing like that happens, you make a report imme- diately after. Q. This was made several days after, or was it? , A. I would say probably within a week or ten days : after it happened. ; [497] Q. I noticed that on here, the last statement on the report is, that you made a statement to F.B.I. Agent Harold Crossett at his office in McAllen about this incident, and that that statement was made several days later, so this statement was made even after you made your report to the F.B.I.? A. Evidently it was, from looking at the last line in my report. Q. And you don’t have any independent recollec- tion of how many days or weeks after that, that Tan aCe pt ean Cae ORES you— A. —Not exactly— Q. —prepared this written statement? A. It was just shortly after it, but I would say a week or ten days. & x ST Sar RN ee Sate EAE ‘ 5 Sv. 4 4 % 4 4 B) 371 Mr. De Anda: Judge, I believe that is in entirety the deposition of Mr. Bowers. The Court: All right, it is after 9:00, and we will recess until 9:00 o’clock in the morning. [498] (And thereafter on January the 28th, 1971, at 9:00 o’clock A.M., Court reconvened in the above entitled and numbered Cause, all par- ties present and presiding as before, and the following proceedings were had, to-wit:) The Court: Please be seated, Gentlemen. All right, yesterday evening Mr. De Anda left a few citations with me, and xerox copies, did you fur- nish them with the citations that you left? Mr. Bowers: Yes, Your Honor, they have handed them to us this morning. The Court: You May proceed. Mr. Pain: Your Honor, at this time I will call Mr. Jerry Jones. The Court: Mr. Pain, is Dr. White going to come back or are you going to bring— Mr. Pain: —No, Sir, he is not coming, Your Honor, and Dr. White has been notified. The Court: All right. 372 [499] GERALD JONES, was Called as the next witness on behalf of the Gov- ernment, first being duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified as follows, to-wit: DIRECT EXAMINATION By Mr. Pain: Q. You were sworn earlier, were you not? A. Yes, sir. Q. Please state your name. A. Gerald L. Jones. Q. How are you employed, Mr. Jones? A. I am Supervisory Deputy U. S. Marshal for the Southern District of Texas. Q. What is your area of supervision? A. In actuality, I am the third man in the District under the Chief Deputy; I have supervision over all of the Deputies in practice; however, I supervise the Deputies in far South Texas, and supervise the Dep- uties in Houston. Q. All right, and what, what counties does this include that you supervise in South Texas? ; [500] A. Well, the three Divisions would be Laredo, 3 Brownsville, and Corpus Christi. Q. That’s good, how long have you been employed f as a U.S., or Deputy U.S. Marshal? A. Twenty-two years, sir. Q. And how long have you been employed as a Supervisory Deputy U. S. Marshal? A. Mr. Pain, I swear I don’t know, seven or eight years, or more, I’m not sure. = PT Oe Le ee ee Pe ee ee SGT ELLE LINE SIE EL RLOAP OIA BLOT Oe ; ; x 373 Q. And where is your duty station? A. Brownsville, Texas, at this time, sir. Q. And your duties do cover Corpus Christi at times, do they not? A. Yes, sir. Q. And Laredo? A. Yes, sir. Q. And Brownsville? A. Yes, sir. . Q: And other areas in that general area? \ A. Yes, sir, on occasion, Houston, Galveston, and Victoria. Q. Would you explain your duties as Deputy U. S. Marshal, and in your Capacity, also, as a Supervising Deputy U. S. Marshal?. _ A. I perform all the duties of a Fielé Deputy, and [501] in addition thereto, I advise with and super- vise the other boys in their duties. If they have prob- lems that they are unsure of, it is quite often that they call me for direction and supervision. — Q. How many Deputies do you have under your supervision? A. Seven now, maybe eight. Q. Now you have been present during the pro- ceedings in this trial, and you have heard mentioned the Deputy Marshal deal with Bowers, was he under your suprevision in May of 1968? A. Yes, sir, he was. Q. And if he had any problem in connection with the performance of his duties, that he did not think he could solve himself, you would be the person that he would go to first, is that correct? A. Ordinarily, yes, sir. 374 Q. When was the first time that you had any contact with the facts of this particular case here? A. On May the 22nd I was in Court at Laredo. We had quite a heavy docket there, we had had a Grand Jury, I don’t know what day that May the [502] 22nd fell on, but I know that we had had a Grand Jury immediately preceding that date. And I became aware that there was a sealed indictment against some eleven Defendants, of which Reagan Logue was one, I know that some of the Defendants were already in custody, and we received a warrant on the sealed indictments for a number of other Defendants. I do not, at this time, recall how many, but I know there were two or more. Q. And you received a warrant for the arrest of Reagan Logue? A. Yes, sir. Q. And it was delivered to you for execution? A. That is correct, sir. Q. What did you do then? A. I entered into a conversation with a number of the Customs Agents who were there attending Court, and endeavoring to ascertain some information about the case, and where, the whereabouts of these De- fendants, the facts surrounding the situation, and, in other words, gathering all the information that I could in order to effectuate the arrest of the indi- viduals we wanted to arrest. [503] Q. How did you go about toeffectuate their arrest? , A. I believe that Mr. Bennett actually made the telephone call on this particular Defendant, and I think I called some other office somewhere in the ree se ee . 2 en ane i | 4 4 3 i 4 3 3 4 AG LAEGER AD ETL I fortis CT v 375 Western District concerning another individual, but Mr. Bennett called Deputy Marshal Bowers, who was in Corpus Christi at the time in the absence of Mr. Schorre, who was the only resident Deputy that we ' had here, and gave him all of the information that we had. And before the conversation was over, I was through, and I came in and I talked to Mr. Bowers also. Q. This was on the 22nd of May, 1968? A. Yes, sir, that’s correct. Q. Is that correct? A. I recall Specifically that we did not have an address in the case file for Reagan Edward Logue in Laredo, and that through the conversations with agents and everything, I told Mr. Bowers that the agency service here had a, had an open file on this young man and could give him the address and probably help in locating the individual. [504] Q. What next occurred after you delivered the message, or had the message delivered to Mr. Bowers for the arre&t of Reagan Logue? A. In connection with this case? Q. Yes, sir. A. He called me back sometime that day, I am not Sure of any time because I made no note of it, I received telephone calls many times during the day— Q. And dal | A. —but he called me and told me that he had ar- rested Reagan Logue, and gave me the circumstances surrounding the arrest. Q. What next occurred in connection with this matter? SRSA RD Andean tine Sobel alee a eae lade 376 A. I think the next time that I heard anything in connection with the case was on May the 24th, two days later, when Mr. Bowers called me in the morn- ing and, and advised me that Logue: had cut himself the previous day in the Nueces County Jail. Now he had been absent at that time on a prisoner delivery to Houston and Galveston, and the prisoner had been removed to the hospital by the Sheriff’s Deputies. He stated to me that Mr. Marvin Foster, Logue’s [505] attorney, had requested that the treating doctor, that Dr. Shannon Gwin, a local psychiatrist, had been al- lowed to see Logue as a friend of the family, and that Gwin had seen Logue and ordered him confined to the psychiatric ward where he was at that time. Q. What did you tell Bowers, if you recall, and if you told him anything during this conversation? A. It seems to me that his concern was guards, I think, that it was nearing the week-end and he did talk to me about the fact that he had been away from home for some two or three weeks, and that he was having problems locating guards, and he didn’t quite know what to do about it. Q. Why was he concerned about guards? A. Because it would be necessary to retain guards on a prisoner who was in the hospital, one who is actually in our custody. I went into quite a discussion with him about guards at that time; I asked him if, _in his opinion, first, I asked him if he had visited the psychiatric ward, and he stated that he had. And I asked him if he thought it necessary to keep guards on him, what was the condition of the psy- chiatric ward, and I don’t know whether it was in [506] this conversation or another one that he told 377 _ me, I don’t know whether he had actually seen the psychiatric ward at that time or whether he said that he would look into it and advise me of it, but essen- tially he did tell me that in his opinion that the ‘psychiatric ward would not be a Suitable place to keep the prisoner without a guard on him, due to what he termed “loose key control” and the general atmosphere of the situation. Q. Now you have been a Deputy Marshal for some twenty-two years, is that correct? A. Yes, sir. . Q. During that time you have become’familiar with all the procedures and requirements of being a Deputy U. S. Marshal and the Marshal’s Manual, is that cor- rect? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is the ordinary procedure concerning guards and a Federal prisoner who is transferred from a jail to a hospital? A. We always place a twenty-four hour guard on that prisoner who is being kept anywhere outside of the confines of a jail. Q. Why is that? [507] A. To prevent his escape. Q. All right, now after this conversation with Deputy. Bowers, what next occurred in connection with this case? A. I, I don’t know whether it was in the same conversation, or in a subsequent conversation that we had this discussion about the security of the psy- chiatric ward there, and he did, though, tell me that he, in his opinion, felt, it would not be safe to leave Logue there without guards on him. And I advised . i, 378 . him that it was his responsibility, that he had better get out and look up some guards, that he was not, he was wanting to go home, and I told him, “Don’t you leave unless the situation is as it should be, and that it’s your problem, you are there, you handle it.” Q. Now this was on the morning of the 24th? A. Yes, sir, I, I am sure it was, yes. Q. Do you recall talking to Marvin Foster that morning? A. Yes, sir, not, I do not specifically recall when I talked to Mr. Foster, but I talked to Mr. Foster in connection with a telephone conversation that I was having with Mr. Bowers. [508] Q. Did you have more than one telephone con- versation with Mr Bowers and/or Mr. Foster during the day of the 24th? A. I had only one with Mr. Foster, but I had sev- eral with Mr. Bowers, I know. Q. Do you recall the next telephone conversation that you may have had with Mr. Bowers after the initial one? A. I believe, I know that probably the last conver- sation that I had with Mr. Bowers was when I was directing him to remove Logue from the hospital and remove him to the jail, and the arrangements that were being made and so forth. Now I may have also had another conversation with him concerning the 4244 Commitment Order that Mr. Foster had talked to me about before. _Q. Before we get to that last conversation with Mr. Bowers, did you have any conversation with Casey Slocomb? A. Yes, sir, I know I did. % j ‘ : i A the ape Feit 379 Q. And who is Casey Slocomb? A. He is the Chief Deputy. Q. And he is a Supervisor, is that correct? A. Yes, sir, that’s correct. Q. What was the content of the conversation you [509] had with Casey Slocomb? A. Mr. Slocomb asked me if I thought that the jail would be a suitable place to keep Logue, that if, if I thought they had suitable facilities, and I as- sured him that I thought they had. Q. This was after Logue had cut himself and was in the hospital? A. Yes, sir. Q. This was pending his possible transfer back from the hospital to the jail? A. Yes, sir, and I told him that I, myself, per- sonally, would check on the Situation, that I knew-Mr. Lowrance there very well, the Chief Jailer, and I would advise him about it and let him know. Q. Now you mentioned a Conversation that you had on the telephone with Marvin Foster, was that on the 24th of May? A. I am sure it was, yes, sir. Q. Do you recall if that was in the morning or the afternoon? A. I rather think it was in the morning; how- ever, I could not be sure. Q. What did he tell you? A. He advised me that he had been trying to contact [510] Mr. Ronald Blask, who was the As- sistant United States Attorney, in charge of criminal prosecutions at that time in Laredo, and with the end in view of seeking a 4244 Commitment for this 380 Defendant. He stated to me that he intended to bring this up at the time of arraignment of the De- fendant in Court, and that he would go into the question of his mental competency at that time, and thought it would be wise, just as wise to do it now. And I told him that Mr. Blask was in Laredo; however, he was very busy, he had a tremendous case schedule, he was being harried, we were work- ing quite hard in the Court also, and I told him that I would be glad to take it up with Mr. Blask and the Court for him and that I was sure there wouldn’t be any problem with the thing. Q. All right, before you go any further concerning what you may have done later, what is a 4244 Com- mitment? A. It is a commitment by the Court in which a, when a person who is accused of an offense comes before the Court and is mentally, his competency is put into question, both at the time of the com- mission of the offense and his competency [511] to stand trial at the time is put into question, the ‘ Court commits the Defendant to, usually the Medi- cal Center at Springfield to get a Government psy- chiatrist’s opinion as to both questions. Q. In your capacity as Deputy United States Marshal for the past twenty-two years, have you had the occasion to handle many of these 4244 > Commitments? A. Yes, sir, many. Q. Now going back to the conversation that you had with Marvin Foster, he mentioned a 4244 Com- mitment, what did you, and you told him that Mr. 381 Blask was rather busy, what occurred, then, in con- nection with that conversation? A. I, I told him further, I Said, “If you want me to,” he had already intimated that he would like for me to take it up with Mr. Blask, I told him that I would be glad to do so, and if there were any question at all whatsoever, I would have Mr. Blask call him. I thought he would have much greater luck in getting in touch with Mr., Mr. Blask by having Mr. Blask call him when he could. Q. So would it be accurate to Say that the jist of [512] Mr. Foster’s conversation to you was that he wanted a 4244 Commitment for Reagan Logue? A. Correct. Q. And what, if anything, did you do or tell Mr. Blask then? A. I told him exactly what had transpired. I told him that we had arrested this young man, that he had cut himself on the arm, and had been com- mitted to the hospital, and Marvin had told me that he intended to bring up the matter of his men- tal competency at the time of arraignment, would you just as soon do it now and See if the Court would have him committed for observation under a 4244. And he said, he Said, “I see nothing wrong with it,” and he and I both went to Judge Connally, and Judge Connally readily agreed to issue a Writ, I told him all about the situation— Q. —You told Judge Connally about the situation? A. Yes, sir. Q. In his Chambers? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did the Judge indicate that he would sign the Order? 4 isbn diallestiin al eT RO NL TE ee OT Nit sa t Lota det | 3 4 # ; : 3 a ; x 385 [517] Q. Then did you issue some directions to Dep- uty Bowers? A. Yes, I called Mr. Bowers and I told him about these arrangements, arrangements that I had made, at which time he protested, ‘Well, Gerald,” he Says, “I don’t have a doctor’s release yet,” and I said, “Well, Blackie, I, I, I just talked to Mr. Slocomb about this same thing and I know, although he did not say so, from the tenor of his conversation, he was under the assumption that you had received a doctor’s release for the prisoner or he would not have even gone into these instructions. You must have called him, what did you talk to him about, how could you have given him the impression?” And he Says, “Well, I don’t know.” I Said, “Well, let me tell you this—disregard this so far,” I Says, “I want you to make, go and look at the arrangements that Mr. Lowrance has made, I want you to personally inspect the situation yourself, I want you to inspect the jail, I want you to see that everything is in readiness,” and I went over this sort of thing with him. And then, “I would suggest that you call the doctor and advise him that we do have this 4244, 4244 [518] Commitment pending, that we would like to move the prisoner back to the jail, and ask him if he wil] give you a release.” And he said that he would. I said in the event that the doctor does not deem it ad- visable to give you a release, you are to do nothing, leave the prisoner exactly where he is and simply advise Mr. Slocomb. Q. Now in your duties as Deputy U. S. Marshal, you come into contact with a number of jails in the South Texas area, do you not? Oa 386 A. Yes, sir, in fact, all over the United States. Q. And these jails are not all necessarily federal institutions, are they? A. No, sir. Q. But yet you put federal prisoners in them? A. Yes, sir. Q. What allows you to do that? A. We have jail contracts with jails that are ap- proved by the Bureau of Prisons. We tell them our needs and they, in effect, they negotiate contracts with various counties so that we may have federally approved jails. Some of them, there are variations in the things that we are approved for. [519] Q. All right, then the method by which federal prisoners are kept, are allowed to be kept in these state jails, are the jail contracts, is that correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are all the jail contracts the same? A. No, sir, we negotiate a jail contract with each individual county jail and Sheriff. Q. How do you pay these jails? A. Well, simply what we pay is on a per head basis, per head per day. Q. Per head per day basis? Yes, sir. And not a straight monthly— —No, sir— —monthly retainer or salary or fee? No, sir. . Now when you put a federal prisoner in one of these jails, is he separated from the other prisoners? A. No, sir. CP ee Re Oe SN A As Se, Sy eee POUR LT Oye ee Lon or oe ORE OPOProOp PYGMIES PE ate . , 387 Q. Is he subject to any Special privileges from the other prisoners? A. No, sir, and the Bureau of Prisons would frown very muchly, very muchly so if he received any [520] better treatment than any other prisoner in the jail, whether it be federal, state, county. Q. Does it, or do you consider the jailer of each jail to have control and custody of each— Mr. De Anda: —Oh, Your Honor, I object to what this witness considers, whether he considered the ‘jailer to have custody and control because, first of he all, it is a conclusion, the jail contract speaks for itself, and the Statutes Speak for themselves, and I don’t believe it is up to this witness to interpret, by giving his legal conclusion, as to custody and control. Mr. Pain: Your Honor, this wouldn’t necessarily be a legal conclusion. That is based upon his experience, his twenty-two years of experience as a Deputy U.S. Marshal, his experiences with all these different jail- ers in these Situations, irrespective of the fact that it may differ from what the jail contract is, and I am asking him what his experiences have been in connection with the custody and control of the pri- soners. [521] Mr. De Anda: Further, Your Honor, his ex- periences is really not relevant; it is what about this particular prisoner, the one that we are talking about, and unless it applies to this prisoner, it would be irrelevant and immaterial. I still maintain my objection as being, it being a legal conclusion as to the effect of it or the status of the, of the jailer of a ae aaa es Pe ES i a A ie TA a LLL SO ES 388 | the Sheriff's Department, I don’t think this is a ques- tion of law, it’s based on the facts and on the Stat- utes. The Court: Well, I’m going to overrule the objec- tion. Mr. Pain: I forgot my question, would you please read it back, please, ma’am? (The following question was read back by the Court Reporter and is as follows: “Does it, or do you consider the jailer of each jail to have control and custody of each—’”’) [522] By The Witness: A. He does have actually physical control and cus- tody of the prisoner in there, anyway, and in another sense, of course, we retain control over the prisoner. Q. Now on various times and occasions, you have to go up and get these federal prisoners and to see them on occasions, do you not? A. Yes, yes, sir. Q. Do you feel obligated to check, check in with the jailer when you do? Mr. De Anda: These questions are very leading and suggestive in form. I haven’t objected up to now be- cause it was not, I felt not on relevant matters, but I think now it’s getting down to some meaty prob- lems here, and I would prefer that he not lead the witness. 389 Mr. Pain: I will attempt to rephrase my question a little bit better, Your Honor. The Court: Rephrase it. Mr. Pain: All right. By Mr. Pain: Q. Have you had occasion to visit federal prisoners in these jails? [523] A. Yes, sir. Q. And what is the procedure that you go through when you do so visit? A. Walk into the jail and Say, “I want to see this prisoner so and so.” Q. If the jailer would Say, “No, you can’t see him,” what, what would you do? A. I would immediately ask why not. Q. If the jailer said, “You can’t go upstairs and see him,” what would you do? A. I would ask why not. Q. And have you ever had the occasion to have that happen? A. Yes, sir, I have. Q. Then how would you see the prisoner? A. I didn’t see the prisoner, I thought the man’s reasons were very good and I agreed with him and I left. Q. Do the federal prisoners receive any different food than the state prisoners? A. No, sir. -Q. Are they subject to the same rules and regula- tions? 390 A. Yes, sir. Q. And who makes those rules and regulations? [524] A. The Sheriff's Department. Q. Are they subject to the same visiting hours? A. Sometimes they are, sometimes they are on Staggered days in a jail which may, half of its popu- lation may be federal prisoners, and there will be one visiting day for federal prisoners and possibly another visiting day for state prisoners, but— Q. —Who sets up these hours? . A. The Sheriff. , Q. Do they wear the same clothes, same clothing, they, meaning the federal prisoners, do they wear the same clothing as the other prisoners? A. Yes, sir. Q. And they have the same bedding and other ar- ; rangements? é A. Yes, sir. : Q. And who makes that determination? A. The Sheriff. Q. From your handling of federal prisoners in these jails, have you ever had suicide attempts? A. Yes, sir, many of them. ~ Q. How are you ordinarily notified of this? A. I am usually called from the jail. Q. By one of the jailers? [525] A. Yes, sir. Q. What is the first thing you tell them? A. I ask him, “Have you called the doctor?” Q. Then what do you do? Se yerrar = Sap 5 Sees adie Ghd LA Mr. De Anda: Your Honor, I’m going to object to all of this matter, what he usually does when he has MOP RETME NR CUMIRCE NOMI er , / 391 suicidal attempts; I don’t see the relevancy of it at all, Judge. The Court: I agree with you, I don’t think there is any relevancy as to what he does himself in con- nection with suicide attempts, and in other instances, when he wasn’t actually the one on the ground in connection with this one. By Mr. Pain: Q. Now you have had some of your federal prison- ers taken to hospitals as a result of injuries received in the jail, have you not? A. Yes, sir, you mean by others, other than Deputy Marshals or myself? Q. Yes, sir. A. Yes, sir, uh-huh. Q. And what is the first thing that you are con- cerned with, if anything, when you find out [526] that one of these prisoners has been taken to the hospital? Mr. De Anda: Your Honor, again, I don’t see the relevancy of all this testimony. He may be trying to get something, I don’t know, but I know what the matters are that are being presented and I don’t think they are relevant at all to this case. The Court: Well, I think maybe, I don’t know be- cause I am not pre-judging any of the questions of law, but I think perhaps custom may have some relevancy, that in the course of years of experience these have been handled in a particular way. 392 Mr. De Anda: All right, sir. By Mr. Pain: Q. What is the first thing that you do ordinarily? A. I try to find out the extent of the problem, if the prisoner is going to be committed to the hospital; if he is going to be committed to the hospital, how long is he going to be there; if there is any chance that— Q. —Who do you talk to on this? A. Usually the doctor, ‘the jail physician. Q. The doctor that admitted the prisoner to the {527] hospital? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you find out from him how long he’s going to be there? A. Yes. Q. Why is it that you are interested in that? A. For several reasons. The first one is, the security of the prisoner, of course, we do not want him to esc [Text truncated at 120,000 characters. The full text is on the page linked above.] --- Source: Frix Law Library, https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40386414_0166%3A2. Public record. Not legal advice.