# Appendix — Otter Tail Power Co. v. United States > Briefs, arguments, decisions, and more. URL: https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40386414_0104%3A02 ## Record - **Collection:** Supreme Court brief - **Document type:** Appendix - **Published:** January 1, 1973 - **Citation:** 410 U.S. 366 ## Text Index APPENDIX—VOLUMES I AND II. Index for Volume III of Appendix (Exhibits) is found in Volume III. The Revelant Docket Entries in the Proceeding Below... Plaintiff's Complaint Defendant’s Answernrnrnr Memorandum and Order of the United States District Court, District of Minnesota, Sixth Division, dated September 9, 1977777 eee ee District Court Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law, dated October 22, 19711 Original Judgment of the District Court, dated October 22, 1977 ũłõ¶⁴i . Appellant’s Alternative Motions for a New Trial or for Amended and/or Additional Findings of Fact and for Amended and/or Additional Conclusions of Law, and to Amend the Judgment Accordingly ............... Order of the District Court ruling on Appellant’s said Post-Trial Alternative Motions, dated November 10, /// ee 6 eae ⁰¶ eee ek eG eka ee Amended Judgment, dated November 10, 1971 Notice of Appeal to the Supreme Court of the United Index TRANSCRIPT OF TESTIMONY AND PROCEEDINGS * OPENING STATEMENTS Mr. Andersen A. 213 LT. 2 —: gitiiaecasisees 44220 L742 GOVERNMENT’S WITNESSES Harland Martinson: Direct examination ................. A.286 [T. I. 100] Cross- examination A. 299 [T. I. 127] Edward C. Spethmann: T I hoses A.312 [T.I1,2] Harland Martinson: Cross-examination (cont’d) ............ A.321 [T.IL14] Redirect examination A.329 [œT. II. 27) Hubert Lewis, Jr.: T / ² M ĩðͤ 8 A. 331 [œT. II, 20] Cross- examination A. 332 [æT. II, 32] Ernest Woytassek : Direct examination A.344 [T. II, 49] Cross- examination A. 351 [T. II, 60] Redirect examination A. 357 [œT. II, 68] Elaine Waples: Direct examination A. 359 [T. II. 71] Cross- examination A. 362 [T. II, 78] The Transcript of the Proceedings is contained in 10 volumes, one volume for each day of trial, each of which starts over with page 1. As a result, the Transcript page numbers must be related to the volume number. The pagination of the transcript references will be in the following form— (T. II. 2). ii — Index Frank J. Belinskey: Direct examination A. 373 [CT. II, 92] Cross-examination ................... A.375 [T. II, 94] Joseph O. Perino: Direct examination A. 378 [T. II, 100] John S. Holten: Direct examination .................. A.394 [T.III,2] Cross-examination .................. A.404 [T.ITI,15] James L. Grahl: Deen A¾—§«âĩ ] ĩ˙ A. 430 [T. IV, 2] Cross- examination A. 440 [T. IV, 15] Redirect examination ............... A.475 [T.IV,63] William E. Trommershausen : Direct examination A.491 [T.V,2] Crodfexamination .................... A.550 [T.V,85] Redirect examination A.633 [T.VI,83] Recross- examination 8 A. 640 [T. VI, 93] OPENING STATEMENT hc sis ig Mes aad A.651 [T.VI,110] DEFENDANT’S WITNESSES Albert V. Hartl: Direct examination A. 656 [T. VI, 119] Cross- examination A. 752 [T. VII, 116] Redirect examination ............. A. 823 [T.VIII,95] Recross- examination A. 844 [T. IX, 10] Redirect examination A. 849 [T. IX, 16] iii Warren Nye: Direct examination Cross-examination Redirect examination Recross-examination Walter A. Morton: Direct examination Cross-examination — 1 A.851 LT. IX 20 —— A. 893 [T. IX. 50 . A. 912 LT. IX. ion ere A.917 [T.IX,113] —— A.919 [T. X 2 1 A. 965 [T. X. 66] GOVERNMENT’S EXHIBITS* GX Exhibits 1 through 294 were all offered and received on page A.285 [T. I, 108] and are described on the Government Exhibit list. Gx Offered Received Description 206-A A.534 A.534 Map indicating Han- [T.V,63] [T. v.63] kinson and Elbow Lake. N 206-B TDU A.904 Map. (T.1X,95] (T.1X,95] 25 N A.288 Elbow Lake Council — (T.1,111] (T.1,112] Minutes, 9/8/62. 596 Azo A.291 Various Elbow Lake (T.1,113] (T.1,116] Council Minutes from 6/6/60 to 5/7/65. 297. 2 A.295 Letter, Martinson to (T.1,120] (T.1,121] Wolter, 7/8/65. 298 A.294 A.295 Letter, Wolter to (T.1,120] (T.1,121] Martinson, 8/10/66. * This list of Exhibits and their descriptions is compiled from the introductory pages of each volume of the Transcript prepared by the Court Reporter. iv Index GOVERNMENT’S EXHIBITS GX Offered Received Description 599. A298 A298 Electric power case (T.1,126] (T.1,126] study for Village of Elbow Lake. 300, A315 A316 Letters Re: Colman. 301 ~=—«[T.11,4] (T.11,4] 302, A.315 A.315 Letters Re: Alexan- 303 = [T.II,4] IT. II, 4] dria. Na, A.319 ABI9 Letters between 305, [T.11,13] (T.11,13] Elbow Lake and and Basin Electric. 306 8 32 A.332 Contract for electric IT. II, 321] [T. II, 32] service, Bureau of Reclamation and Colman. J 32 A.332 Re: Litigation (T.I1,32] (T.11,32] 309 X32 A.332 Report of Buell & (T.I1,32] [T. II, 32] Winter, Minutes of City Council of Colman. NI A344 A344 Exhibits Re: Woytas- thru [T. II, 49] ILT. II, 49] sek's testimony. 317 318 X81 81 Exhibits Re: Waples’ thru [IT. II, 75] [T. II, 75] testimony. 329 v —— Index GOVERNMENT’S EXHIBITS GX Offered Received Description 330 A376 A.376 Letter from Bartel, ~ [T.I1,97] {T.I1,97] 331 IIe A.376 Waples, Minutes, LIT. II, 97] LT. II. 971] 332 A.376 A376 Waples, Letters. ~~ thru [T.II,97] [T.11,97] 338 339 Withdrawn 3 Ja «A876 NN Waples, Letter. {T.11,97] [T. II, 971] JI INN NN Waples, Agreement. {T.11,97] {T.11,97] 345 A376 A.376 Waples, Letter. {T.1I,97] {T.I1,97] n A316 Waples, Contract. [T. II. 97] [T. II. 97] 344 A379 A379 Perino, Letters. thru [T. II, 1011 LT. II, 1011 348 349 III A381 Hickerson, Letter. (T.1,104] [T-11,104] 350 ASS : A.384 Re: George Danforth. thru [T.I1,107] II. II, 110] 356 357, A. 400 A. 404 Letters by Holten to 358 II. III, 10] ILT. III, 14] Woytassek and Healey. vi Index GOVERNMENT’S EXHIBITS GX Offered Received Description 350 A. 400 A. 404 Letters by Holten thru IT. III, 10] ILT. III, 14] Re: City of Colman. 371 N22 A. 400 A. 404 “Signature Certifi- (T.I11,10] (T.111,14] cate”. N A.400 A404 ~ “Faegre and Benson” (T.111,10] LT. III, 14] “$95,000 Electric Rev- enue Bonds of 1964, City of Colman.” 374. A. 414 — — thru [IT. III, 28] — 426 374 «AAD thru [T.IV,69] 434 A.487 Exhibits 374 thru LT. IV, 82] 434 deseribed on Government's Exhibit list. A487 [T.IV,82] A487 LT. IV, 82] A. 487 LT. IV, 82] vii Index GOVERNMENT’S EXHIBITS GX Offered Received Description 435 A495 A.495 Systems Map Central” LT. V. 71] [T. V. 7] Power Coop. J 5 A.495 Systems Map UPA. IT. V. 7] [T. V. 7] 487 A.495 A.495 Systems Map CPA, IT. V. 7] IT. V. 7] 438 A.495 A. 495 Systems Map East [T. V. 7] [T. V. 71] River Cooperative. 9 NA A.508 Transmissions Map [T. v. 11] LT. V. 27] Otter Tail Service Area. 440 XXI X12 Transmissions Map [T. V. 32] [T. V. 32] Otter Tail Service Area. 441 A.512 XI Otter Tail Report [T. V. 321] ILT. V,. 33] Filed 1970 with FPC. 442A B12 A518 Otter Tail Report ILT. V. 32] ILT. V. 33] Filed 1960 with FPC. 443 ~=Adi4 A.b15 Bureau of Reclamation ILT. V. 35] ILT. V, 36] Map 1970, Missouri River Basin Power System. J 769 A.769 Statement of (T.VIII,16] (T.VIII,16] A. V. Hartl. viii . Inden GOVERNMENT'S EXHIBITS Gx Offered Received Description a A-817 Speech by A. V. Hartl [T. VIII, 86] [T. VIII, 86] 11-18-70. N A975 A975 Government Exhibit [T. X, 80] LT. X, 80] List, Exhibits 1 thru 294. 7 A. 975 A. 975 Government Exhibit [T.X,80] LT. X,. 80] List, Exhibits 374 thru 434. DEFENDANT’S EXHIBITS DX Offered Received Description 121 291 Elbow Lake Council (T.1,116] (T.1,116] Minutes, 8/7/61. .. aan A.291 Elbow Lake Council [T.1,116] [T.1,116] Minutes, 8/17/61. +”) A.291 “Elbow Lake Council [T.I. 1171] [T. I, 1171] Minutes, 6/4/62. 7 A.291 A.291 Elbow Lake Council (T.1,117] (T.1,117] Minutes, 8/6/62. 5 A.292 A.292 Elbow Lake Council — (T.1,117] (T.1,117] Minutes, 6/7/65. ix Index — DEFENDANT’S EXHIBITS DX Offered Received Description 6 N A320 “Letter by Nye to vi- LT. II. 14] LT. II. 14] lage of Elbow Lake. Tas NIN N28 Letters to Martinson, , LT. II. 21] Lr. I. 21] 8 X85 85 Letter by Woytasse LT. II, 71] LT. I. 711 i TX IIT X88 X88 Letters. N [T. II, 66] CT. II, 66] 4 12 NI IA Minutes LT. II. 66] LT. II. 66] Ts N88 88 Letter, 2-14-64. LT. II. 66] LT. II, 66] 14 A. 356 A. 356 Articles of Incor- LT. II. 66] Lr. II, 66] poration. I Addo X58 Bylaws. [T.11,66] LT. II. 66] 16 A.367 A.367 Contract. [T.11,83] [T.11,83] TIF A.367 A.367 Agreements. [T.11,83] LT. II, 88] 19 A368 A.368 Letter. (T.11,84] [T.11,84] 20 — — Same as UNA BI — — Same as Y tw Adi XI [T.III, 32] LT. III, 32] 22 Withdrawn on A. 429 [T. III, 50] Same as GX 237 X Index DEFENDANT’S EXHIBITS Dx Offered Received Description 1 A. 460 A.460 July, 1970, Booklet [T.IV,43] ILT. IV, 43] published by Missouri Basin Systems Group. 1 A. 460 A. 460 North Central Power [T. IV, 43] ILT. IV, 43] Study. % A489 A.489 Campaign material. thru [T.IV,85] [T. IV, 86] 37 ar or Identification A. A 38 A. 610 A. 611 Source Map. [T. VI. 51] [T. VI. 521] 39 A.610 A.611 Source Map. (Tv1,52) [T.VI,52) % A726 A.727 Otter Tail Chart. [T.VII,81] [T.VII,81] 41 A738 A.739 Otter Tail Chart. (T.VII,97] [T. VII. 97] I 25 X82 Engineering Study. [T. VIII, 98] ILT. VIII, 98] (See A. 826 > (T.VIII,99}.) 42 A.850 A.850 Documentation thru [T.1X,18] LT. IX. 18] of cases in area 87 of litigation. Bo X40 A.840 List of REA (T.1X,4] [T.1X,4] cooperatives. xi Index DEFENDANT’S EXHIBITS DX Offered Received Description 90 A851 A851 1969 REA Statistical [T.1X,19] [T.1X,19] Report. 91 A.857 A.858 Excerpts from [T. IX,. 28] LT. IX, 30] Exhibit GX.-2. 92 A861 A.864 Map. aa [T. IX, 35] [T. IX, 39] 93 A.861 A.864 Map. cs [T. IX, 35] [T. IX, 39] 94 A.873 A.873 Study of Power [T. IX, 52] LT. IX. 52] Supply, Area 26. 95 A.933 A.938 Study and schedules LT. X, 21] [T. X, 281 of Dr. Morton. 96 A.952 A.952 Study and schedules [T. X, 47] [T. X, 48] of Dr. Morton. 97 A. 958 A. 958 Study and schedules [T. X, 56] T. X,. 56] of Dr. Morton. 588 A.975 A.976 List of towns served LT. X, 81] [T. X, 82] by Co-operatives at retail. DX99—Letter from East River to Elbow Lake. Added to record by Order dated Nov. 8, 1971 8 A. 1211 Otter Tail Dep. Ex. A—Army Engineers’ study. Offered and received in evidence at A.315 [T.II,6,7] 4.1214 Chart Submitted by the United States Included in Record by Order dated July 5, 1972 A. 1219 Grahl, Redirect by Anderson 491 The Court: Thank you, gentlemen, for a nice visitation and education about electric power this week. See you next Monday at 10:00. (Whereupon, a recess was taken until 10:00 o’clock a.m., June 7, 1971.) [T. V. 1] UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF MINNESOTA SIXTH DIVISION (Title Omitted in Printing) The above-entitled matter came on for trial before the Hon- orable Edward J. Devitt, Chief Judge of the above-entitled Court at Saint Paul, Minnesota, commencing at 10:00 o’clock A.M., June 1, 1971. The following transcript contains the proceedings of June 7, 1971. (Appearances as heretofore noted.) * * * * * [T. V. 2] June 7, 1971, 10:00 o’clock A.M. The Court: Good morning, gentlemen. Mr. Anderson: Your Honor, the government calls Mr. William Trommershausen as its last witness. Whereupon, i é f 4 ces — 492 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson WILLIAM E. TROMMERSHAUSEN, a witness called by and on behalf of the government, being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION By Mr. Anderson: Q. Would you give us your address, Mr. Trommershausen? A. My residence address is 1421 Sunset Boulevard, Boul. der, Colorado. Q. And would you very briefly give us your educational background, Mr. Trommershausen ? A. Iam a graduate with a BS Degree in Electrical Engi. neering from Oregon State College in 1963. Q. Are you a registered engineer, Mr. Trommershausen? A. Yes, sir. I am registered in my state of residence, Colo- rado, in the State of Minnesota and in 12 other states. Q. Now, could you trace for the Court your professional experience in electrical engineering work in a brief way, [I. V, 3] Mr. Trommershausen? A. Since graduation in 1963, I have served in planning, design, construction, supervision of operation and mainte. nance and management of electric utility systems. Upon graduation from college I served three years with the Rural Electrification Administration; then 15 years with the Bonneville Power Administration in both engineering and management positions. During Military Service in World War II, I served as a rehabilitation engineer on hydroelectric projects and associated transmission facilities in Austria and Italy. I joined R. W. Beck and Associates, a consulting engineer- ing firm in 1955 and have served in the firm’s offices at Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 493 Seattle, Washington; Columbus, Nebraska, and was regional manager of the Denver Regional Office until two years ago when I was appointed chief consulting engineer of the firm. I have specialized primarily in long range system and power supply matters involving extra high voltage transmissions. I have also supervised numerous finance and feasibility studies for thermo plants, transmission lines for power dis- tricts, REA finance cooperatives and municipal systems in- volving review of wholesale rates in power contracts. I have served as a member of a consulting team for the U. S. Joint Committee on Atomic Energy for the original [T. V, 4] Hanford Nuclear Project. I have served as an expert witness before courts and com- missions and have been six times before the Federal Power Commission. Several years ago I supervised a river basin survey for the Holmand Valley in Afghanistan for the State Department, and in my present position as chief consulting engineer I assist staff engineers in our lining the complex problems that come to them in all of the six consulting offices that the firm now maintains. [T.V,5] Q. Over the years that you have been associated with R. W. Beck, have you had occasion to become familiar with the power supply arrangements in the so-called Missouri River Basin area? A. Yes. The Denver office was established in 1961 because the managing partner of the firm then determined that there were many power problems in the Missouri Basin and in the Colorado River Basin, and since 1955, I have very closely fol- lowed the problems of power supply, and I presume that in the last 15 years I have met at least 50 times or more with the / 494 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson Bureau of Reclamation office at Boise, Idaho, Denver, Cojo. rado, and Billings, Montana. Q. Does your firm R. W. Beck work exclusively for what have become known as public power-type organizations? A. No. We broadened our firm considerably to the point where we now have more than 100 registered professional engineers on a staff that exceeds 200, and we are able to handle all types of utility services, whether it be water, sewer, street drainage, city planning, telephone systems, municipal systems. We have done considerable work for state and federal agen. cies. We have branched out to serve industry. The fact is, | could name several of the clients we have recently served, Boeing Airplane Company; Norton Airplane Company of Massachusetts; I have recently finished an [T. V, 6] assign- ment with the CF&I Steel Company of Pueblo, Colorado, in- volving contract review and power supply. We have served the Sun Oil Company, the Atlantic Richfield Oil Company, the Gulf Atomic Company and more recently we have completed one phase of a power supply investigation for Consolidated Edison Company of New York City. Q. Are you a member of any professional societies? A. Yes, I am a member of the National Society of Profes- sional Engineers and the American Society of Military Engi- neers. I am a member of Eta Kappa Nu, which is a college honorary for electrical engineering. Q. Do you or have you had occasion to publish any papers that you have written in your field of expertise? A. Yes, I have had published probably two dozen papers, more recently a paper that was prepared for the American Society of Chemical Engineers on the subject matter of inte- gration of industry and utilities, and also a paper for the Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 495 American Society of Mechanical Engineers done jointly with our mechanical partner John Rossi concerning the develop- ment of mine mouth generation and extra high voltage trans- mission; and papers have appeared within the last year in the Consulting Engineer Magazine and in the American Public Power Magazine. Mr. Anderson: I would like to have [T. V, 7] marked as GX-435, a map of the Central Power Electric Cooperative, Inc., existing transmission system. I would like to have marked as GX-436, a systems map of United Power Association. I would like to have marked as GX-437, a map of the Co- operative Power Association. I would like to have marked as GX-438, a systems map of the East River Electric Power Cooperative. I would like to offer those four maps, Your Honor. (Government’s Exhibits 435 through 438 offered in evi- dence.) , The Court: Absent objection, they may be received. Mr. Field: 435, 436, 437 and 438, are those being offered? Mr. Anderson: Yes. Mr. Field: No objection, Your Honor. The Court: They may be received. (Government’s Exhibits 435 through 438 received in evi- dence.) Mr. Anderson: I would like now to have marked as GX- 439, a map entitled “Transmission Map of Otter Tail Power Service Area.” It purports to show municipalities receiving wheeling service from Otter Tail [T. V, 8] Power Company. I say that by way of description. (Government’s Exhibit 489 offered in evidence.) The Court: Absent objection, it may be received. 496 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson Mr. Field: We have some questions about 489 and No. 449 that is coming up. Mr. Anderson: I have a few questions, too. Mr. Field: I think I advised you about that. By Mr. Anderson: Q. Mr. Trommershausen, looking at GX-439 for identifi. cation, first of all, can you tell me whether you had any hand in the preparation of that map? A. Yes, I supervised the engineer draftsman that prepared this map. . Q. ‘Would you in a very brief way explain how your organi- ' gation went about preparing the map? What source materia] did you use? A. We used the latest available Bureau 2 Reclamation transmission map, and the 1969 system map that was provided to us by the Department of Justice. - Q. System map of the Otter Tail Power Company? A. Right. [T. V, 9] Q. Are there any changes that you would like to make on GX-439? A. Yes, there are, there are several changes. The mapping of congested utility systems is getting to be pretty difficult, and in some cases the draftsman didn’t make the proper inter- pretation. Take, for instance, on the top in the middle, you will see a rather heavy line going from Devils Lake to Langdon. That’s coded here as being an Otter Tail line, and in reality, the upper portion of it is owned by Minnkota Power Coopera- tive. ; Q. In order for this to be fully accurate, that would have to be shown as a jointly-owned transmission line? : eat A. That is correct. Q. Jointly owned between Minnkota and Otter Tail? Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 497 A. Right. There is another line, looking back,/that would need coding, if you go over to the left hand, still on top, you will see Towner and Gardena just north. Now, since prepar- ing this map and reading the files, I find there is a 115 kv transmission line there that was built by Central Power Co- operative and it is under joint use by Central and Otter Tail. [T. V. 10] Q. So there should be, in order for this to be fully accurate, there ought to be a fat 115 line running from Towner to Gardena? A. That’s right. Q. And the proper designation of that would be a central power line which Otter Tail Power Company has use of pur- suant to a contract? A. Right. Mr. Field: Will you just pause a minute to get up to date here? Mr. Anderson: Sure. By Mr. Anderson: Q. This line is not on the map at all? A. Now going over to the right side of the map and about two-thirds of the way down.— Q. We are still talking GX-439, right? A. Yes, sir. You find there is a heavy dotted line east and west that crosses a black line north and south. You see Fergus Falls at the point of intersection? Q. That’s this line right here, is that right? A. Yes, sir. Q. All right. A. And look below Fergus Falls you will see a point marked Elbow Lake. Elbow Lake was not shown on the Otter Tail maps that I had available but in order to be certain that [T. v. 11] we could orient Elbow Lake with respect to other — 498 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson towns we put Elbow Lake on this map purely for orientation purposes. It is not connected to the Otter Tail system. Q. Now, all the little names of cities here I take it refer to cities which are served either at retail or receive wheeling service from Otter Tail, is that correct? A. As shown on the maps, right. Q. Yes, sir. I see. Are there any other changes that should be made on GX-439? A. None that I know of now. Mr. Anderson: I offer 439, Your Honor. (GX-489 offered in evidence.) Mr. Field: May I inquire with reference to the map too? The Court: Sure. Mr. Field: Can you hear me all right from here, Mr. Trommershausen ? The Witness: Yes, sir. Mr. Field: First a question about one of the changes that you suggested in 439 and that was a line from Towner to Gardena which you said was a 115 kv line. That line is shown on the Central Power Electric Cooperative transmission sys- tem map Exhibit 435, is it not? The Witness: I have misplaced [T. V, 12] my copy of, that map. Mr. Field: We will make them available to you. The Witness: I see the map. I see the line on the map. Mr. Field: That’s a Central Power Electric Cooperative line, is it not? The Witness: That’s correct. Mr. Field: Otter Tail owns no part of that line? The Witness: No. But as I indicated, I understood read- ing the contracts that Otter Tail had use of the line. Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 499 Mr. Field: Then you are suggesting that on Exhibit 439 all lines which Otter Tail has a right to use of should be shown ? The Witness: No. If I would do that again, this map would look as complicated as the original maps I started from, and I should make it clear that because the other maps have so much background information on them it was difficult for me, and I am sure it would be difficult for the Court, to get an understanding of what the general subtransmission system of the Otter Tail Power Company was unless we could separate it from out of the other lines because when we go to the other maps that are coming up [T. V, 13] which are in reference here, which have just about everybody’s lines on them, it’s difficult to get an appreciation, at least for me, as to why the towns that Otter Tail serves at retail are located. Mr. Field: I appreciate your comments, Mr. Trommers- hausen, but we have to do one thing at a time, and as far as 439 is concerned, which is the exhibit we are talking about, if the Towner-Gardena line was shown because Otter Tail has right to use it, you would add many, many more lines on 439, wouldn’t you? The Witness: Then I will say strike the line. Mr. Field: That was my suggestion. Do you concur? The Witness: I concur. Mr. Field: Now, into some other items that were called to my attention by our people, Otter Tail’s staff, with refer- ence to Exhibit 439, and as an example of something that I have been told occur several times on the map. Would you concentrate for the moment on the area of Per- ham and New York Mills which is towards the right side of the middle of 439? The Witness: Yes, sir. I find it. 500 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson [T. v. 14] Mr. Field: Now, 439 shows two black lines between Perham and New York Mills which has the legeng 41.6 kv transmission line. Is the map intended to show two transmission lines between those two towns? The Witness: As drawn—just let me check. The map ay shown as we have drawn it does show two lines. I see the draftsmen had some problems because on your map there js a gap between Richville, and an extension north of Otter Tail; on the Bureau of Reclamation map there is shown two lines. Mr. Anderson: In order that the record show what we are talking about here, when you talk about the Bureau of Recla. mation map you are talking about GX-205? The Witness: That's correct. Mr. Field: Let's start out with this, Mr. Trommershausen There is only one line between those two points, isn’t there? The Witness: Depending upon which map you use as a reference. Mr. Field: Well, in fact? The Witness: Not having been in the field, Mr. Field, we didn’t check the actual, physical facilities against these maps. Mr. Field: Well, for the [T. V., 15] moment, just for the purpose of questions I will ask you to assume there is only one line between Perham and New York Mills, electric line. The Witness: Yes. Mr. Field: I suggest for your consideration that you have reproduced or your draftsman has reproduced on Exhibit 489 not only an electrical line but a public highway in the same key that the transmission line is reproduced. That suggested to me that he took off the highway and also put that in. The Witness: Well, Mr. Field, I don’t see how that was possible because the two maps he used 1 have in front of me and they don’t have any roads on them. So it was a question Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 501 of which map was the more accurate, I believe was the prob- lem that faced the draf tamen. If you say there is only one line there I will accept that. (T. v. 16) Mr. Field: There are several similar ones. I call your attention to some others and see if that helps solve the problem. If you will look towards the upper part of the map, St. Vin- cent to Hallock, running through the towns of Humboldt and Northcote, do you find that location? The Witness: Yes, sir. Mr Field: We seem there also to have two lines indicated on the map, Exhibit 439, between those points. Do you see that? The Witness: Yes, sir. Mr. Field: Assuming there is only one line there, do you have any explanation of why the duplication is there? I am trying to get at the background of your map. The Witness: Yes. Comparing that, again, to the Bureau map, that is a draftsman’s error. Mr. Field: Which Bureau map are you referring to? The Witness: 206. Mr: Field: I am looking at our copy of 206 now, and be- tween those two points there is a yellow line? The Witness: Yes, sir. Mr. Field: That is one of the lines between those two points on 439, is it not? [T. v. 17] The Witness: That is right. Mr. Field: Right? The Witness: Right. Mr. Field: There aren’t two electric lines shown between those points on the Bureau map, Exhibit 206, are there? 502 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson The Witness: No, there is not, and I can’t explain why that draftsman put the extra line on. Mr. Field: Is there any other reference we can look at for a key as to what happened there? The Witness: No, sir. Mr. Field: There was another map that you said you looked at in preparing this, another source? What map was that? The Witness: The company’s map. Mr. Field: Do you have that? The Witness: Yes, sir, we have several. This was the one we started with and this was the one we told the Justice De partment was so difficult that we didn’t want to start with this one, and they provided this one (indicating). Mr. Anderson: Should I mark this? Mr. Field: I would like to see what the source was. Maybe we can find the key to what happened there. [T. v. 18] We furnished you this, 1 suppose? Mr. Anderson: Yes, you did. Mr. Field: Could I see the one that you said wasn't so easy to understand? The Witness: Yes. This is the source map. Mr. Field: Probably the draftsman might have used this? The Witness: Possibly, but that was the map that prompt- ed me to say that we ought to do somethiig to simplify the | location of towns because that was difficult to read. Mr. Field: I think it might help us as to what happened. Can we mark this? Mr. Anderson: Les. Mr. Field: Should I mark it or do you want to? It’s one of the source maps he used. Mr. Anderson: You can mark it. Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 503 Mr. Field: I will have it marked. The Court: Is all this going to be helpful to us? Are these errors significant? Mr. Field: They might be pointed to by somebody on the map unless they are corrected. The Court: I gather that there is a mistake running on the two lines from Hallock to the border? [T. V. 19] The Witness: Yes. Mr. Field: There are several more. That’s the point. The Court: Why don’t you point them out to him and per- haps he will admit that they are in error. Mr. Field: I think this will help. Should I try it? The Court: He doesn’t seem to need much help. He said that the draftsman made errors. I don’t think we should spend too much time if it isn’t a signal thing. Mr. Field: I will ask him if he concedes the points that I have in mind. Will you mark this? ; (Defendant’s Exhibit 38 marked for identification.) Mr. Field: Do you concede that the double line between St. Vincent and Hallock is an error? The Witness: Yes. Mr. Field: Do you concede that the same situation is true between Clyde and Langford, North Dakota? The Witness: I need some help identifying this. Mr. Field: Towards the top of sa map [T. V, 20] about in the middle. The Witness: I have found it. Mr. Field: There are two lines there, too. Do you concede that is an error, also? The Witness: Yes, that is an error. I see that the drafts- man may have been confused because your map does show a 504 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson second line but it is coded with a different ownership. There is a second parallel line in the area, but it is coded with a dit. ferent ownership, so I concede that he misinterpreted that portion of the map. Mr. Field: Then if you will look at the situation between Egan and Trent, South Dakota, and I will ask you if you con- cede that the situation there is an error as far as those lijies? The Witness: Yes. He would have the same problem be- cause there is another parallel line of different ownership, and apparently he interpreted that from your map as your line. Mr. Field: I have difficulty hearing you over here. The Court: He made a mistake, he says. The Witness: Yes, sir. Mr. Field: Milbank-Marvin, South Dakota, a similar situa- tion? I suggest that the Milbank-Marvin line as shown here is non-existent. There aren’t [T. V, 21] two lines. What you have shown as a line is not a line. . The Witness: In checking the two source maps that were used, I find there is not on the Otter Tail map a line from Milbank to Marvin. On the Bureau map there is a line, but of a different ownership. This is an error. Mr. Field: Now, I call your attention to the Lake Preston- Hetland, South Dakota, line. The Witness: From Hetland to where? Mr. Field: Lake Preston. The Witness: There is a line of another ownership paral- lelling the Otter Tail line, and I presume he made the same error. May I point out to the Court that the difficulty of reconcil- ing these two maps is that what was an official source map, the Bureau map, does not have all the towns named nor the substations named, and so it is a difficult problem to try to Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 505 reconcile the facilities on this map to the other one. That is why this draftsman had some serious problem. Mr. Field: The parallel line is the East River Electric Cooperative ? The Witness: According to the code on the Bureau map, that is correct. [T. V. 22] Mr. Field: If you will look at the Donaldson- Argyle map? The Witness: I found it. Mr. Anderson: Your Honor, would it be helpful if I marked as an exhibit the most recent Otter Tail map which shows exactly where the lines are and whether they are two and one in a given situation and perhaps to the extent there are minor errors that occurred in the process of transposing from this map to the one that created those errors will be corrected by this map. We will see that in the process of taking things off this map, taking things off the Bureau map, human error intruded and little mistakes were made. Perhaps for the sake of clarity I will have marked Otter Tail Power Company System map dated 1970. The Court: Is the object of 489 just to show municipalities served by wheeling contracts? Mr. Anderson: Right. The Court: Do you concede those eight or nine places are served by wheeling contracts? Would that solve the problem? Sixteen communities. * Mr. Field: Could I have just a moment, Your Honor? The Court: Is that right? Mr. Field: I said just one [T. V, 23] minute. The Court: Oh, excuse me. Mr. Field: Well, I think what Your Honor’s inquiry of me was whether the towns underlined in red on 489 were towns 506 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson to which Otter Tail wheeled. I think that is correct, and I think the contract for the wheeling arrangements are all exhibits in this case. The Court: Is that the only purpose of 439? May that be received with the understanding that’s its sole purpose, it doesn’t reflect anything else? Mr. Anderson: Yes. I think that’s fine. Mr. Field: We don’t need the exhibit if that’s the purpose of it. Mr. Anderson: It’s a lot easier than looking through 18 contracts. The Court: It may be understood there may be some other errors and double lines. Mr. Field: There are other errors in other respects too on the map. . The Court: Why don’t you withdraw the map? I can take judicial notice of where the towns are I suppose. They are there. © Mr. Anderson: I don’t know. Are these other errors errors of moment or do they go to the [T. V, 24] question of whether in fact these—what we are trying to do is show the Otter Tail system and show where on the Otter Tail system these wheel- ing customers are. If we ever, when we get to the substantive question that we are going to present to Mr. Trommershausen, we are going to trace the process by which the power is wheeled to these towns. The Court: Why doh’t you use Otter Tail’s map. That’s presumably accurate. Mr. Anderson: Well, it may be accurate but it doesn’t show—it doesn’t indicate on the map which towns are wheel- ing customers. This one does. You have a big—you see on their map you have—you just have a lot of towns and no way of Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 507 knowing which ones are wheeling customers and which ones are retail customers. The purpose of this map is simply to show where the 17 wheeling customers of Otter Tail are on the Otter Tail system, and after we get the map in evidence then we are hoping to have Mr. Trommershausen very briefly show the, using that map, show the process by which power is delivered. If you use the more complicated map which doesn’t have these towns designated as such it gets much more difficult to find what we are talking about because there are so many towns in the area it’s hard to find the particular one you are dealing with. This one has them underlined. Mr. Field: The problem we have [T. V, 25] is a map which is an exhibit in the case which has errors that we pointed out and some others I think we can point out in other respects, and all it’s offered for is to show where certain towns are and then people start looking at the map and interpreting the legend and all that’s here, and we got to refer and deduct and correct from some other maps; maybe we understand it, but it’s a coll plieated process of receiving an exhibit. The areas that we have in mind that we can point out in- clude the voltages on 439 for some of the lines that we think are incorrectly shown. There are some lines that are left off the map. There are some portions of some lines that have other ownerships than are shown on the map other than those that have already been pointed out. The Court: Your view all those are going to be significant in some later point, are they? Mr. Field: I don’t know. We have a map and these things presented on them as representing facts and they could well come under the classification of trivia all right but as a lawyer here with a map being offered in evidence I think it’s my duty to call attention to the errors that are presented on it. If it’s — 508 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson only offered to show where Detroit Lakes and Alexandria and so forth are, I think the exhibit is superfluous. I will follow any line Your [T. V, 26] Honor suggests we should. The Court: I don’t know, of course, what's coming. I can’t offer any guidance. I think we are fooling around with a lot of minutiae here. Mr. Anderson: Your Honor, you can rest assured that we are not going to involve ourselves in anything other than the question of the wheeling customers. That’s the only point for which this map is offered. We are not going to involve our- selves in the discussion as to whether in fact there are two lines or one line between. two cities up in the middle part of the map. The Court: Will the power supply 118 afford it, will that be significant in any presentation? Mr. Field says some of the power symbols are wrong too. Will that be significant? Mr. Anderson: No. I don’t think so. The Court: May it not be offered for just solely showing where those 17—not 16? Mr. Anderson: Seventeen. The Court: Communities are? It may be received for that limited purpose, would that satisfy you? Mr. Field: If we need it for that limited purpose. IT. V. 27] The Court: Let's assume we do and we will receive it for that then. All right. (GX-439 received in evidence.) The Court: What about the other exhibits? Mr. Anderson: I would like to have marked as GX-440 another transmission map of Otter Tail Power Company’s service area. This one has essentially the same as 439 except this one has an overlay of the Bureau of Reclamation trans- Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 509 mission system on the map. The purpose of this is to show the Otter Tail subtransmission and the overlay of the Bureau grid upon the Otter Tail subtransmission network. The Court: Is there an objection to 440? Mr. Field: It has all the same errors as 439 has. The Court: Its limited purpose is what? Mr. Anderson: Is to show the overlay of the Bureau trans- mission network in the Otter Tail service area. The Court: That’s its sole purpose? Mr. Anderson: Right. [T. v. 28] Mr. Field: Now, we see somewhat where we are going. We are tying in Bureau overlay with Otter Tail system on the same map in which all these errors, minute or otherwise, occur. ‘ 7 Mr. Anderson: It’s pretty hard to get a map as absolutely perfect in every respect. I have never found one, and you try to do the best you can. Even the Bureau map here is an official publication of the Bureau of Reclamation and we discovered here today there are some minor errors in that. It’s very diffi- cult to get a map that’s a hundred percent accurate in every respect, Your Honor, and I think Mr. Field: Just a moment please, Your Honor. We have information, Your Honor, which, from which we believe we can point out additional errors in 440. By additional errors I mean in the overlay of the Bureau’s lines. They also may be details but nevertheless they concern the location of some lines and some substations and some items that are reported to us to be left out and some voltage errors on the lines and there is one town left off. Well, maybe they are details, I don’t know, but they are things that—we studied these things, they were given to us, and we have found what occur to be errors to us. 510 Trommershsusen, Direct by Anderson Now, is there some way—I [T. V, 29] don’t suppose it’s up to us to take the stand and point out where the errors are. It should be the person that offered it. Mr. Anderson: The whole purpose of this exercise, Your Honor, was an effort by us to take the big Bureau map which has been marked as GX-205 that shows the whole eastern division of the Missouri River Basin Project. We blew that up to show the Otter Tail area, service area, and the other lines in that general area. Now, as an aid to the Court, we thought we would be useful to go a step further and take out the Otter Tail system from this map and impose on that system the Bureau grid in hopes that in a general sort of way we could demonstrate to you what the Otter Tail system looked like in general, what the Bureau overlay looked like in general, how the two looked meshed together generally. Now, as I have said before, it’s a little difficult to transpose this information from one map to another. We did the best we could. To the extent they were minor errors we apologize, but we don’t think those minor errors detract from the overall purpose of the exhibit. The Court: Exhibit 206 tells a story, but it isn’t as clear there as it would be by these details? Mr. Anderson: Right. And our only purpose, Your Honor, was to try to take 206, take out [T. V, 30] the extraneous lines, leaving just the Otter Tail network and the Bureau network to show in general how those two look together. The Court: I wonder what that understanding these others with their minor errors couldn’t be received and then if there is something of moment that might be prejudicial you could bring it up later, Mr. Field? Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 511 Mr. Field: We can assume that burden if Your Honor thinks that’s the way we should proceed. The Court: I gather 206 is an accurate picture of the whole story, you say it won't be so clear to me unless you take out some extraneous things? Mr. Anderson: Yes. It purports to be an accurate repre- sentation prepared by the Bureau of Reclamation, but you see there are other system lines in there too, different colors and whatnot, and we thought that it would be an aid to the Court to take out all the other lines which are on either side of the Otter Tail system, some cases traversing it, leaving just Otter Tail and Bureau so you could see how those two work together. The Court: Otter Tail in orange on 206? Mr. Anderson: Right. Down at the bottom there is some other orange that belongs to somebody else and rather than scissor this all up some more we made [T. V, 31] this exhibit 440 to try to portray graphically how these two systems look together. Mr. Field: May I observe, Your Honor, that Exhibit 206 which shows all of the lines of a certain voltage, I believe, and includes lines of other suppliers and Otter Tail and the Bu- reau, the lines of the other suppliers are by no means extrane- ous. They are a part of the system. They are a part of what happens in this area. Mr. Anderson: And they are part of the record too, GX- 206. Mr. Field: And just isolating Otter Tail and the Bureau, what you have left is not an electrical operating system nor does it represent the facts in the case. The purpose of this last exhibit, of course it’s your testi- mony, it can proceed as you apparently plan to in the matter, but I would like to observe as we go along that the entire pic- — 512 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson ture of what lines are in the area is a more factual situation than to isolate any particular lines. The Court: Exhibits 205 and 206 have been received in the stipulation? Mr. Field: Yes. The Court: Maybe with that understanding those official maps show the story and the [T. V, 32] others are only meant as an aid, would that prejudice you? Mr. Anderson: Yes. That’s fine. The Court: The others may be received with that under- standing. Now, go ahead. (GX Exhibit 440 offered and received in evidence.) Mr. Anderson: I would like to have marked two additional reports filed by Otter Tail with the Federal Power Commis- sion called Form 1 Report. I have one here for 1970 and I have one for 1960. The 1970 one I would like marked as GX-441 and the 1960 as GX-442. These dodiments were prepared by Otter Tail people and filed with the Commission and are official records of the FPC and contain the background information concerning the operations of Otter Tail Power Company, and we feel it’s useful, and we are going to use these with Mr. Trommershausen later and we also féel it’s useful to have in one place a set of figures that both sides can rely upon rather than each side relying on different figures and coming up with different numbers because of the different calendar years involved or whatnot. We feel this would give us a source of information we would use in describing Otter Tail’s operations in our brief. The Court: If there is no objection, they may be received. TT. v. 38] Mr. Field: If the Court please, I would like to observe this. We were to exchange proposed exhibits pur- suant to the pretrial order. These proposed exhibits were not Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 513 included in that process, and they are Otter Tail reports, so, of course, we have access to the information from other sources being furnished by counsel, and in connection with studying them as to what connection they may have with the issues in this case, if they are to be received, we may need some time to take a look at them to see what application they may have to this case. Filing a report is one thing. We don’t have so much trouble with the 1970 report as the 1960 report. That is ten years ago. I don’t know what the purpose of the 1960 report is. The Court: They may be received. (Government’s Exhibits 441 and 442 received in evidence.) Mr. Field: We have the 1970 report but not the 1960 report. Mr. Anderson: We will have a copy of the 1960 report made, hopefully by the end of the day if we can get access to the Xerox down here. But we will do that. Finally, I have had marked as GX-443, a map prepared by the Bureau of Reclamation dated 1970 [T. V, 34] entitled ‘Missouri River Basin Power Systems.” This map is nothing more than an updated version of GX-236. At the time we pre- pared GX-236, which we had testimony from Mr. Muller on, we did not have the 1970 version of the map. In the interest of accuracy, we secured it and we would like to have this put into the record to update the information. Now, perhaps before I offer it I ought to ask Mr. Trommers- hausen a few questions about it. By Mr. Anderson: Q. Mr. Trommershausen, you will note there are some red dots on that map. Did you place the red dots on there? A. Yes. Q. Can you tell us what those red dots signify? 514 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson A. They represent, based upon the latest information that I had available, the points at which contractually the Bureay of Reclamation system and the Otter Tail system are now tied together. I might point out that there are in some cases multi- ple connections at some of these substation locations. You have to refer to the contract and more detailed drawings to find out what those are. But this, again, represents the location of the principal substations that are interconnected. Mr. Anderson: I should also note for the record that at the very top of the document there is a little red dot and next to it it says “Interconnections [T. V, 35] between Otter Tail and the Bureau of Reclamation.” That sentence was typed on the document by the Department of Justice secretary. It was not part of the document as prepared by the Bureau. I offer GX-443, Your Honor. (Government’s Exhibit 443 offered in evidence.) Mr. Field: I comment again, Your Honor, this is a new exhibit that we haven’t seen before this morning. If the exhibit is offered to show where the red dots are, and apparently they are the same on Exhibit 236— Are there any differences there? Mr. Anderson: This document is a much clearer—I will give Your Honor a copy of 236, which is the earlier exhibit, to compare it with Exhibit 443. We think 443, in addition to the updating, shows a clearer picture, a better map, and I think— ; Mr. Field: Well, I am not sure that I am going to object. I just asked, are the red dots the same on the two maps? Mr. Anderson: I think they are. Mr. Field: A cursory review looks as if they are. I am just asking because I have just seen this new one this morning. It was just handed to us. Is that true? Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 515 IT. v, 36] The Witness: Are you asking me, Mr. Field? Mr. Field: Yes, if I am privileged to ask you. The Witness: Yes, it’s true. However, I would point out, and perhaps counsel wasn’t advised, on the more recent map that the Bureau of Reclamation provided, there is a line be- tween Valley City, Forman and Summit which has been com- pleted since the other map was prepared. So in respect to the area in which we are studying, in addition—Well, the dots are the same. There is this added line, Mr. Field. Mr. Field: We are familiar with that item. We have no objection to 443. The Court: It may be received. (Government’s Exhibit 443 received in evidence.) By Mr. Anderson: Q. Using GX-443 and GX-205, GX-205 being the bigger Bureau map and GX-448 being a smaller Missouri Basin Power Systems map, would you first, Mr. Trommershausen, indicate to us generally where the Bureau of Reclamation power is produced? Where does it come from? I am talking now solely in terms of power marketed in the Eastern Division of IT. v, 37] the Missouri River Basin Project? A. On Exhibit GX-205, if you will look at the top center, you will see a reservoir which will help us identify, showing the Fort Peck project. That is the most westward project in the Eastern Division. 5 Then let's follow down the river. The next reservoir to the east is the Garrison reservoir. Then when you go south from the Garrison reservoir you will see the Oahe reservoir. Then Fou will see in the center of South Dakota Big Bend reservoir with a big concentration of reservoir transmission lines at Fort Thompson, and then proceeding south you come to a reservoir and dam called Fort Randall, and below that dam 4 — 816 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson you will find a reservoir at Gavins Point, and there is a gen. erating plant there. Those are the main stem dams of the Corps of Engineers system that produces power that is mar- keted by the Bureau of Reclamation. The Bureau of Reclamation has two additional projects in this region. One is the Yellowstone project and you will see it if you go south from the original Fort Peck project down to almost the Wyoming border, you will see a dam called Yel. low Tail. The output of that project is generally divided 50-50 between the Eastern Division, which we are now speaking of, and the Western Division. CT. v. 38] Then if we move on up to the left and almost * to the Continental Divide on the upper Missouri River, near the State Capital of Helena, we see a dam called Canyon Ferry. That project is also a 50-megawatt project, part of the power supply of what the Bureau calls its Eastern Division. : Q. I take it that the power that is produced at these Bu- reau facilities is marketed generally to the east and south of those facilities, isn’t it? A. The bulk of the market is to the east and south, but there are, of course, as shown from the map, loads served enroute and all over the States of North and South Dakota and Nebraska. Q. That power is marketed as is shown on GX-205 east- ward to a point in Minnesota, I take it? A. Yes. The Bureau map has, as far as I can remember, has also shown the eastern power market for hydro power to that area that lies west of the gray line that is shown on map 205, starts up at the Canadian border and goes down to the Kansas border. Q. Now, using GX-205 and 206, I take it that the basic Bureau of Reclamation transmission grid is shown in red on those two maps, is that true? Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 817 A. That is correct. Q. Now, what is the principal function of the Bureau transmission network, Mr. Trommershausen ? [T. V. 39] A. The principal function of this network is to deliver the hydro power to the Bureau’s market, and that market is made up basically of the so-called preference cus- tomers, but the grid, as was previously discussed, makes ef- fective interconnections with the transmission networks of all of the utilities, public and private, in the Missouri Basin. These connections were made at the periphery of the market- ing area and throughout the Missouri Basin whenever it’s beneficial and justified. Q. What voltage are the bulk of the transmission lines in the Bureau network, Mr. Trommershausen? A. I don't have access to the exact mileages of each voltage class. I would say that the basic network for delivering bulk power supply to load centers is 230 and the 115 kv transmis- sion lines. Just recently, however, the Bureau of Reclamation found it necessary to go to a higher voltage, and as you will see on the bottom of 206, a dotted line with square dots con- nected with light lines, that is a new 345 kv line, extra high voltage that the Bureau built to deliver hydro peaking power in the Nebraska area. I might also say, if you look over in the lower right-hand corner, you will find Sioux City, and at that point you will see two transmission lines labeled 161 kv. That is an intermediate voltage level between the 230 kv level and the 115 kv level, and the Bureau selected that to [T. V, 40] accommodate the pri- vate utilities in Iowa, in Western Iowa that wanted to inter- connect with the Bureau transmission grid. Now, the Bureau does own a small amount of 69 kv trans- mission line and in the Fort Peck area some 34.5 kv. These 516 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson you will find a reservoir at Gavins Point, and there is a gen. erating plant there. Those are the main stem dams of the Corps of Engineers system that produces power that is mar- keted by the Bureau of Reclamation. The Bureau of Reclamation has two additional projects in this region. One is the Yellowstone project and you will see it if you go south from the original Fort Peck project down to almost the Wyoming border, you will see a dam called Yel- low Tail. The output of that project is generally divided 50-50 between the Eastern Division, which we are now speaking of, and the Western Division. [T. v. 38] Then if we move on up to the left and almost to the Continental Divide on the upper Missouri River, near the State Capital of Helena, we see a dam called Canyon Ferry. That project is also a 50-megawatt project, part of the power supply of what the Bureau calls its Eastern Division. Q. I take it that the power that is produced at these Bu- reau facilities is marketed generally to the east and south of those facilities, isn’t it? A. The bulk of the market is to the east and south, but there are, of course, as shown from the map, loads served enroute and all over the States of North and South Dakota and Nebraska. Q. That power is marketed as is shown on GX-205 east- ward to a point in Minnesota, I take it? A. Yes. The Bureau-map has, as far as I can remember, has also shown the eastern power market for hydro power to that area that lies west of the gray line that is shown on map 205, starts up at the Canadian border and goes down to the Kansas border. Q. Now, using GX-205 and 206, I take it that the basic Bureau of Reclamation transmission grid is shown in red on those two maps, is that true? — * Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson A. That is correct. Q. Now, what is the principal function of the Bureau transmission network, Mr. Trommershausen? [T. V. 39] A. The principal function of this network is to deliver the hydro power to the Bureau’s market, and that market is made up basically of the so-called preference cus- tomers, but the grid, as was previously discussed, makes ef- fective interconnections with the transmission networks of all of the utilities, public and private, in the Missouri Basin. These connections were made at the periphery of the market- ing area and throughout the Missouri Basin whenever it’s beneficial and justified. Q. What voltage are the bulk of the transmission lines in the Bureau network, Mr. Trommershausen? ous A. I don’t have access to the exact mileages of each voltage class. I would say that the basic network for delivering bulk power supply to load centers is 230 and the 115 kv transmis- sion lines. Just recently, however, the Bureau of Reclamation found it necessary to go to a higher voltage, and as you will see on the bottom of 206, a dotted line with square dots con- nected with light lines, that is a new 345 kv line, extra high voltage that the Bureau built to deliver hydro peaking power in the Nebraska area. f I might also say, if you look over in the lower right-hand corner, you will find Sioux City, and at that point you will see two transmission lines labeled 161 kv. That is an intermediate voltage level between the 230 kv level and the 115 kv level, and the Bureau selected that to [T. V, 40] accommodate the pri- vate utilities in Iowa, in Western Iowa that wanted to inter- connect with the Bureau transmission grid. Now, the Bureau does own a small amount of 69 kv trans- mission line and in the Fort Peck area some 34.5 kv. These — 518 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson latter two voltages I would consider as a sub-transmission voltage, and I might point out that there is another error in our basic map, because the Bureau line between Edegely and Forman is not shown with a voltage designation, and he as- sumed it was a 115 kv line. Actually, it is a 69 kv line. This, again, represents the difficulty of anybody preparing a com- pletely up-to-date map and getting all the details on it. [T. v, 41] Q. Now, is the totality of the Bureau of Rec. lamation transmission network commonly referred to as a transmission system? A. Yes. As distinguished from a subtransmission system, I would call the present voltage levels that I discussed except- ing the 69 and the 34.5, I would call that the basic Bureau transmission grid. Q. Would you explain for the Court the difference between a transmission system and a subtransmission system? A. Yes. The basic transmission system that’s laid out for any major utility is that system that is designed to transmit what I prefer to call bulk power supply. What I mean by bulk power supply, I mean blocks of power, 25, 50, a hundred and larger amounts of power. The purpose of the bulk power supply system is to move power to the load centers in the most efficient, the most reli- able and the least costly manner. The bulk power transmission system does not, however, enable the Bureau or any utility having such a system to reach the ultimate market. Q. And how does subtransmission fit into that? A. Well, the subtransmission system is the device, if you will call it that, by which power moves nearer to the point of use. In other words, there generally is interposed between the bulk transmission system and a city, town or [T. V, 42] indus- try a subtransmission system. Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 519 I have reference in this case to the term municipal gate. A subtransmission system would be used to take power from a load center on a bulk system to the municipal or to another type of customer that the Bureau has in the Missouri Basin. The subtransmission system would take power from the bulk power supply system to two or three or more selected points of delivery in each of the counties in which the rural electric cooperatives are located. So, in other words, the subtransmission system breaks down to a lower voltage the power supply from the bulk system and brings it to a point where it has to go through what is called a distribution system in order to get to the retail customer. Now, the distribution systems are of different types and designs. There are some 2300 volt distribution systems still used in many towns in the Missouri Basin. There are many 12,500 kv distribution systems in use both in rural areas for cooperatives and for municipal distribution. There is now _coming into wider use in certain of the sparser areas a voltage level which is 24.8 kv, and to the best of my knowledge in the Missouri Basin that has been used primarily by rural coopera- tives. Q. Bringing all of that into the context of this case, would it be proper to assume that the Bureau transmission IT. V. 43] network is a bulk power supply transmission network? A. Yes, it is, but I should make this qualification. That as generally happens there are instances where a substation can serve two purposes. A bulk power supply substation can serve two purposes. It cannot only step down to provide power into a local subtransmission system, but it can serve loads of cities if they are close enough to make a connection to the bulk power supply system and there are, I am sure, a number of situations where the substation is close enough, a Bureau sub- — 520 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson station is close enough to a town or a cooperative that it can serve those two customers without going through a subtrans- mission system. Q. Now, in this eastern region system of the Missouri River Basin Project, does the Bureau of Reclamation own its own subtransmission network? A. Generally no. I mention the small amount of 69 kv and 34.5 kv. The Bureau has elected in this area in contrast, say, to the Bonneville area, the Bureau has elected to use under a wheeling arrangement the subtransmission system of the existing public and private utilities in the Missouri Basin market area. Q. Now, looking for a moment at GX-443, and those points of interconnection at the point of reference here, generally speaking, at a point of interconnection between the Bureau high voltage system and a private utility whose [T. V, 44] subtransmission is going to be used by the Bureau, is there . generally located there what’s known as a substation? A. Yes, sir. Q. Could you very briefly tell the court what the function of a substation in that context is, what does it do? A. A substation is an electrical installation that serves several purposes. Primarily it serves as a point at which you can reduce the voltage from the bulk transmission voltage in the area to the transmission voltage in an area. Take, for example, if vou will, a simple substation called Rolla. Q. That's indicated on GX-443, is it not? A. That's right. Near the Canadian border. It's the most northerly Bureau station. That substation has for its sole pur- pose as far as I can determine stepping down power from the Bureau’s 115 kv transmission line that goes Leeds to Rolla running north, stepping down that voltage to two voltage Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 521 levels, one to 41.6 kv for a connection to the Otter Tail Power Company subtransmission system and also a transformation down to 12.47 kv for service to Baker Cooperative. Now, this is one general use of a substation. If we take a look at a substation at Devils Lake, which is convenient, that substation serves two purposes. It serves as a switching point to switch the Bureau’s transmission line from Leeds to Lakota and also from Devils Lake down to [T. V, 45] Carrington and Jamestown. In other words, this substation serves a switching facility which is necessary for system reliability. It permits a two-way power supply in case of difficulty. Q. Well— A. This substation also steps down to provide a connection with a subtransmission system of both Otter Tail and Minn- kota Power Cooperative. Now, in the major other larger 1 you would step down from 230 to 115 so as to provide an additional power capacity in the 115 grids which is a sort of a second step in the transmission grid. The Court: Excuse me, gentlemen. We are going to recess until 2:00 o’clock. I am sorry to have to discommode you, but I must make a commencement speech to the William Mitchell College of Law tonight. In connection with that I have to go to Minneapolis for a luncheon today so it will give you a little more time. We will recess until 2:00 o’clock. (W upon a recess was taken until 2:00 o’clock P. M., June 1.) [T. V. 46] (June 7, 1971, 2:00 o’clock P.M.) (Appearances as heretofore noted.) Whereupon, ~ — 522 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson WILLIAM E. TROMMERSHAUSEN, having been previously sworn, resumed the stand and testified further as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION (Cont’d) By Mr. Anderson: Q. Mr. Trommershausen, would you define for us what the term wheeling means in the electric power industry? A. Yes. Wheeling is an operation wherein one utility uses the facilities of another utility to move electric power energy from one place to another. This is usually done under a con- tractual arrangement, either short or long term. Q. Now, are there different types of wheeling, different ways in which wheeling is actually accomplished? A. Yes. Now that we are getting very complex intercon- nected network systems, wheeling can be used wherein power moves directly from one point on an electric system to another. Another type of wheeling in which the movement of power is accomplished is through what is called displacement. In this process, an agreed upon amount of power or a proper [T. V, 47] amount is put into one area of an interconnected system and it is used there. An equal amount of power or an agreed upon amount from another source of generation is used to supply a load. . ; Maybe I can make it more clear by an example, a hypotheti- cal, the Bureau wants power to go, let’s say, to the Forman area, which is a known location on the Bureau grid. If it were direct wheeling power it would come from the nearest Bureau generator and go from that generator, let’s assume Garrison, Wannen enen Direct by Anderson 523 to Forman. But, now, when you get into a network operation, it’s possible that the Bureau power would not have to go to Forman, it would be used within the Otter Tail and other systems in the Garrison area, and power from one of Otter Tail’s generating plants would go to Forman because that is closer. ö So this is one of the keys to power pooling in which power does not have to go the longest distance. Power goes, actually, thé shortest distance and power gets commingled and it is ac- counted for on a metering and bookkeeping basis. Q. In other words, if I have this right, under one type of wheeling, the power is put into, say, for example, the Otter Tail system here at Point A, is actually transported over that Otter Tail line to the customer? A. Right. T. v. 48] Q. Is that what you call the actual delivery? A. Yes. Q. The other type, the displacement type of wheeling, as I understand, is where a certain-block of power is put into the Otter Tail system at a point of interconnection with the Bu- reau and an equivalent amount of power is delivered elsewhere on the Otter Tail system by Otter Tail to the Bureau customer? A. Yes. I think perhaps an exhibit you put in this morning, it occurs to me, may better explain this phenomenon. That is Exhibit 456, which is United Power Association. That is the number that is on here. Q. I think you have got the wrong number there. Mr. Field: 486 is United Power. By Mr. Anderson: Q. 486 is the number: A. If I can refer to Exhibit 436, this is probably as good an example as one could find on displacement, because it was —— 524 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson one of the major schemes worked out in the Missouri Basin. On the map on the left, you will see the plant called Stanton, That is a relatively new generating plant owned by United Power Association. They built a transmission line to connect to the systems of Northern States and Otter Tail in the Minot and Devils Lake area and with [T. V, 49] Northern States in the Grand Forks area. Now, the output of the UPA plant is used to meet the load requirements of these two companies in North Dakota and an equivalent amount of power used there is delivered in that area crosshatched over on the right side from plants of Otter Tail and Northern States to meet the loads so that power does not have to travel all the way from Stanton to this area. | think that is a good example of delivering power by displace- ment. Q. From an engineering standpoint, why do wheeling arrangements make sense? A. There are several answers to that question. One, they avoid duplication of facilities. Q. What do you mean by that? A. Well, the alternative to using a wheeling arrangement, using someone else’s subtransmission system, is to build a duplicate transmission line and engineers are hardpressed these days and are becoming more so by proliferations of transmission lines crossing the countryside, taking up valuable rights-of-way, so from an engineering standpoint, it is desir- able to make the maximum use of all existing facilities before new duplicating facilities are needed. LT. V, 50] Q. I think I interrupted your answer. You had given us one of the reasons why wheeling made sense from an engineering standpoint? Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 525 A. The second reason is related to service reliability. An inspection of the maps before us show that all the systems in the Missouri Basin have matured rather remarkably, I would say, in the last 10 to 15 years to the point where there is now loop service both on a bulk transmission grid and on the sub- transmission grid. When I say a loop service, that means we have completed the transmission loop, and so that a failure of a portion of the line does not cause an outage for the entire area. ; If you are going to build a duplicating facility to bill from A to B, you would have a radial line which would be—which would subject the customers at the end of that line to complete outage, whereas if you had, the alternative would be to extend the line to another place where you could effect a connection with a bulk power supplier so as to provide two-way feed or circuits, and then, I think thirdly, there is a matter of the best use of capacity. Now, one of the problems facing engineers in designing transmission when you have in mind reliability and th: avoid- ance of proliferation of facilities is that you want to build a line that has enough capacity in it so that it takes care of future load growth. Engineers nowadays in my [T. V, 511 opinion can no longer build lines for five year needs and then build a second line at thé-end of that period. You have got to choose a conductor size on a voltage level and build a capacity into a facility so that you can at least take care of ten year growth, and so it is advisable with that basic fundamental, design fundamental, it is desirable to have arrangements with your neighbors or others whereby the surplus capacity may be used as early as possible on a reasonable basis because if you build duplicate facilities, both lines have surplus — in them for a longer period of time. 526 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson Q. Well, are the wheeling arrangements which the Bureau makes with utilities so that the Bureau has access to the sub. transmission networks of these utilities, are these wheeling arrangem nta predicated upon the existence of excess capacity in the subtransmission system of the IOU’s? A. Yes, they are. And the contracts I have reviewed and have worked with with my clients in the Missouri Basin are usually on a four year surplus capacity notice basis. If I could explain that. The wheeling agent gets a request from the Bu- reau and that request will give him the load forecasts each year for four years down the road, and the wheeling agent is then required within a time specified within the contract to say whether he has assured capacity in the existing facilities to make that wheeling arrangement to the [T. V, 52] full amount of the need for the four year period, and if not, ar- rangements will have to be made to provide the increased capacity. I might say that in the early years I was fearful that four years was not enough time to work out alternative plans, but I may say that, surprisingly enough because of so many joint studies being made and people having knowledge of each other’s capacity and problems, that I don’t know of any in- stances where the four year surplus capacity notice basis has caused a hardship; and so I think that it’s reasonable in the future to consider that wheeling service can be done to the satisfaction of both parties on a four year surplus capacity notice. Q. In designing a subtransmission system, does a utility in your opinion customarily plan to have excess capacity in its transmission network, subtransmission network? A. Yes. And I think that’s increasingly so and several ways of achieving this. Taking an existing system is one if the configuration of the structures aren’t proper you some- — 7 — Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 527 times can go to a higher voltage with the same poles. Maybe you need new cross arms, certainly need new insulators. The second method is in having loop circuits you can take part of them out of service. You can increase the conductor size. You can replace the existing conductor with larger size conductor and a new arrangement that’s coming into being is called bundling of conductor. [T. v. 53] Bundling of conductor is simply adding a sec- ond conductor and tying it in with fixtures to the existing conductor and in this way increasing capacity of lines. The new lines being built, in my experience, are being built with every increase in conductor size because of the problem that we are facing about in securing right of ways for dupli- i cating facilities. N Q. Now, is it in your judgment desirable for a utility which has excess capacity in its subtransmission facilities to enter into wheeling arrangements? A. Yes. Because of the added revenue that you obtain from the wheeling service. Q. If you didn’t enter the wheeling arrangement you have excess capacity which wasn’t being used? A. That’s correct. Q. Now, turning to the transmission arrangement between Otter Tail and the Bureau of Reclamation specifically for a few moments, and using GX-443 as an illustration, would you tell the Court what the function of that wheeling, of that transmission arrangement is insofar as the delivery of power to Bureau customers is concerned? A. Yes. This map shows the points at which the Bureau is prepared and in fact does deliver firm electric power and energy into the transmission and subtransmission systems of the Otter Tail Power Company for redelivery by Otter Tail — 528 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson [T. v. 54] to the preference customers of the Bureau of Rec- lamation in Otter Tail’s service area, and in addition, these facilities make it possible for the Bureau from time to time to deliver some other commodities/to the Otter Tail Power Company. / For instance, the Bureau has from time to time surplus dump hydroenergy, and Otter Tail has been a substantial pur. chaser of this commodity over the past 20 years for the benefit of the Bureau and the benefit of the company; and I believe that there is reference in the files that the Bureau has sold short term emergency or maintenance power to the Otter Tail Power Company. This is another advantage of the arrange- ment and the interchange arrangement between the Basic Bureau system and the Otter Tail system. Q. Insofar as the delivery of power over the Otter Tail system to Bureau preference customers is concerned, I take it in looking at GX-443 what you are saying is that the power flows from the Bureau over the main Bureau grid to these little red dots, these little points of interconnection between Otter Tail and the Bureau, then from there to the ultimate Bureau preference customer is accomplished over the Otter Tail subtransmission network? A. Subtransmission and transmission. Otter Tail has some 115 kv and 230 kv that is also involved in the overall power transfer scheme but basically that’s correct. [T. V. 55] Q. Now, focusing specifically on the City of Hankinson, North Dakota, and using GX-206 as a guide, per- haps the first thing we ought to do is point out where on GX- 206, at least, possibly where Hankinson is located. A. To the best information available to me, Hankinson is located about an inch due east of Forman on Exhibit 206. It can be represented as being an orange circle right next to Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 529 a heavier orange line and also next to a blue circle on the right. Mr. Anderson: I wonder, Your Honor, if it might be easier, I think it would be easier for us to proceed here if Mr. Field and I could just quickly agree as to where Hankinson is on this map and put a circle around it and we will have one map which has a circle on it, and we will all know what we are talking about. The Court: I have it designated, according to his descrip- tion. Mr. Anderson: This is the circle we put on. The Court: Is there a circle there now? The Witness: There is a yellow circle there now. By Mr. Anderson: Q. Is it a dot? [T. V, 56] A. No. Mr. Anderson: This is the reason we made the other map up, Your Honor, because the cities aren’t shown on this one. The Court: Mr. Field will maybe be tolerant if we use the other one. What number is that that shows it? Mr. Anderson: Exhibit 440. The Court: I see Hankinson, yes. Mr. Field: The circle which counsel put on Exhibit 206, is this the official map? Ur. Anderson: Yes. That is not the one in the record. May- be we could give it a special marking, 206-A. Mr. Field: There is an orange dot and a blue dot side by side. Where you put the circle is where Hankinson is, accord- ing to your information and the blue dot is an RSR substation, I believe? 3 The Witness: Yes. Mr. Anderson: Perhaps before we go any further here 4 — 530 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson we should have Mr. Trommershausen explain for us what these little different colored dots signify. By Mr. Anderson: Q. Would you do that? A. Referring to the code on the original map from [T. V, 57] which this insert was taken— Q. GX-205? A. 205, those are symbols for substations and they are color coded to give some assistance on ownership. But the problem is that there are so many utilities that the same color code had to be used for several. But as far as we are concerned here, that yellow dot is represented as a part of the Otter Tail system. Q. The little blue dot next to it, I take it, is RSR? A. That is correct, or some other ownership. Mr. Anderson: Mr. Jaeger tells me that we keep saying yellow whereas in point of fact it is orange. By Mr. Anderson: Q. Would you agree with that? A. I would agree with that. I am color blind. Q. Assuming that the town of Hankinson wants to set up a municipal power system, and assuming that the first thing it looks at is the possibility of self-generation, supplying its ~ own power, in your opinion, Mr. Trommershausen, does self- generation represent a feasible type of power supply for a town such as Hankinson? A. No. At the present time, the standard type of generat- ing equipment for a town of that size, the utility needs of a town of that size would either be a relatively [T. V, 58] small gas turbine or Diesel engines, and we would be taking a step backward in this day and age, where we are trying to put in large efficient units, trying to meet the air pollution and Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 531 water pollution standards, where we are developing major transmission grids, it would be a step backward to now set up an isolated operation, carry our own reserve generation, by having two units to serve the needs of one, and unless there were other. serious factors such as a very unreliable power supply or exorbitant cost, I would not recommend that a town the sige of Hankinson attempt to proceed with an operation with local isolated generation. 3 Q. Suppose the town decided it wanted to try to buy some power at wholesale from Otter Tail. Would you show the Judge how delivery of power sold at wholesale by Otter Tail would be accomplished to the City of Hankinson, using GX- 206, if you would? A. Well, Hankinson is now served by an existing 41.6 kv transmission lines that extends from Forman, eastward to Wahpeton. That line is now serving the Hankinson load and it would be the logical facility to continue serving that load on a wholesale basis. Q. Now, suppose the town decided it wanted to become a wholesale purchaser of power as a preference customer from the Bureau of Reclamation. Starting with GX-443 and even- tually moving to 206, would you show the Court how [T. V, 59] delivery of power would be accomplished in that circum- stance? ; A. Well, delivery of hydro power would probably come from the Garrison uhit over the 230 kv system to Jamestown. Q. You are talking about the Bureau’s system? A. Yes, and then over the Bureau’s 115 kv system from Jamestown to Forman, and at Forman the Otter Tail system is interconnected, Otter Tail 41.6 kv system is interconnected and power could move from Forman where it would leave the Bureau system and go into the Otter Tail system and go east- 532 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson ward over the existing Otter Tail 41.6 kv north; that is, phys. ically it could so travel. Q. Now, suppose the town chose to attempt to purchase power at wholesale from RSR Cooperative. Would you, using those same two maps, 443 and 206, would you show us how the power in that sort of arrangement would be brought to the town? ‘ A. Well, RSR, as I understand it, is a member of Central Power Cooperative. So I presume that RSR would make ar. rangements with Central, who, in turn, would make arrange. ments with the Bureau so that Bureau power would go into the Otter Tail system at Forman for the account of Central and be delivered over Otter Tail’s 41.6 kv system to the RSR substation, at which point the power would be under the own- ership of RSR, and they, in turn, would deliver it to Hankin son. IT. v, 60] d. Finally, suppose the town decided that another way of getting the power needed was to build a line from the town to the Forman substation. Could you give us your opinion as to the feasibility of a town such as Hankinson building the line itself to effect an interconnection between the town and the Bureau substation at Forman? A. Well, in the first place, there are already two parallel lines between Forman and Hankinson. You can’t tell from this map and I don’t know personally how far apart the heavy orange line is north of the existing 41.6 kv line. Q. They are both Otter Tail lines? A. Yes. So by inspection of this map there would have to be a third line going from Forman to Hankinson, and that line, again, would be a radial facility unless it was extended by arrangement to a point where it could connect to another y 4 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson $33 facility of equal capacity so that in case the line failed, service could be brought in from the other direction. a Assuming it was just a line built from Forman to Hankinson? A. Yes, sir, the cost of such a line built only for the pur- pose of serving the existing Hankinson load and reasonable load growth would be, in my opinion, too high to be considered by the town of Hankinson. q. Well, have you made an estimate as to what the cost would be to Hankinson of constructing a line from Hankinson [T. V, 61] to the Bureau substation at Forman? A. Yes, I have, and I must preface by remarks by stating that these are preliminary cost estimates because I have not been in the field to check the construction conditions. We do, however, keep a record of construction costs and we have what we call a construction cost manual which was last prepared in 1968 and needs some updating because of inflation. So I assumed a 89-mile single pole 41.6 kv transmission line using 266.8 MC MACSR conductor. The 1968 cost of that line would be about $7800 per mile. Right-of-way might possibly cost a thousand dollars a mile, engineering and overhead $500 a mile, for a total cost of $9800. I think it would be reasonable seem ir for the period 1968 to the present time five percent per year, which makes a cost of $10,700 per mile. That multi- plied by 39 miles would cost the city about $418,000, round. Now, at the Hankinson end you would initially put a rea- sonably small substation there. I have here a two and a half to three and a half megawatt substation, 41.60 kv to 12.5 kv at an estimated cost of $57,000 field cost, plus escalation, plus engineering, overhead and interest during construction for a cost of $81,000, and you need a terminal connection at the Forman substation to the Bureau grid. It’s not known whether 534 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson the Bureau would furnish this or [T. V, 62] whether under present conditions Hankinson would have to provide it. Based on escalated costs, I believe that terminal would cost about $61,000. Now, the total cost of those three facilities that | have mentioned would be about $560,000. Q. That is just to get the power to the town? The town will still have to build a distribution center? A. That is correct. These are wholesale delivery facilities, Q. Now, moving to the town of Elbow Lake, Minnesota, the first thing we ought to do here is to see if we can figure out which one of these orange dots on GX-206 is close to El- bow Lake. Perhaps we can do that by referring to GX-440 and 439 which shows all the towns. IT. v, 63] Mr. Anderson: Mr. Field and I have consulted on the circle and we are agreed that the circle is as I put it right here on GX-206. I think, Your Honor, maybe I better mark this document which has these two circles on it as GX- 206A so the record will show what we are talking about. Let the record show I’m offering as GX-206A a map which has two circles which have recently been placed upon it by me, one showing the location of Hankinson, North Dakota, and the other showing the location of Elbow Lake, Minnesota. (GX-206A offered in evidence.) The Court: Absent objection, it may be received. Mr. Field: No objection. The Court: It may be received. (GX-206A received in evidence.) The Court: Will you indulge me for a moment since I am the sole fact trier here, and I manifest my judicial ignorance by going back again to Hankinson and see if I understand things right. Is it Hankinson here? Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 535 The Witness: Right here. The Court: Over here? The Witness: Here. [T. V., 64] The Court: Does the RSR line now serve Hankinson? The Witness: The Otter Tail 41.6 kv line serves Hankin- son. RSR— The Court: Forman? The Witness: RSR is the owner of these two substations which are also connected to the Otter Tail system and are now being served by wheeling from the Otter Tail system. The Court: I see. I understand. Sorry. Thank you. By Mr. Anderson: Q. Now looking at Elbow Lake, Mr. Trommershausen, the first question is whether, suppose Elbow Lake decided to sup- ply its own power, set up its own generator, operate it and supply its own power and distribution system, in your judg- ment does such a power supply arrangement make sense for a city the size of Elbow Lake? A. Except for, as an interim arrangement, as I mentioned with respect to Hankinson, in my judgment, a city the size of these towns, I mean systems the size of these towns cannot expect to operate a viable, financially successful distribution system with long-term dependence on diesel generation. Q. Suppose the town then decided to explore the possibility of buying power at wholesale from Otter Tail. [T. V, 65] Would you explain to the Court how delivery of power at wholesale from Otter Tail could be effected to Elbow Lake? A. Well, as shown on the Exhibit GX-206 there is now a 41.6 kv transmission line going directly or very close to Otter Tail. This is the line that originally—excuse me, by Elbow Lake. This is the line, same identical line that originally 536 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson served Elbow Lake when it was a retail customer of Otter Tail Power Company; and after Elbow Lake was unsuccessful in its attempt to buy wholesale power, the connection was severed and Elbow Lake now operates as an isolated, independent system dependent solely on two diesel engine generators. Q. Well, now, suppose Elbow Lake decided to become a preference customer of the Bureau and buy its power whole- sale from the Bureau. Would you trace for the Court the pro- cess by which delivery of Bureau power would be accomplished to Elbow Lake? A. Well, as in the case of Hankinson there is a physical electrical path at 230 kv from the Garrison plant to Jamestown to Fargo and on south to a town designated as Morris which is on map 206 about an inch south of the orange dot which we are using to indicate the location of Elbow Lake. Q. Is Morris an interconnection between the location of an interconnection between Otter Tail and the Bureau? [T. v., 66] A. Yes. Morris is a point of interconnection shown on Map GX-443 and it’s also included as a point of delivery in the. Otter Tail-Bureau contract. So Bureau power can enter the Otter Tail system at Morris physically. Q. Then what would happen from that point? A. From that point it would flow northward over an exist- ing Otter Tail 41.6 kv line that goes reasonably close to Elbow Lake on its way to Fergus Falls where it’s connected back into the basic grid system of the Otter Tail Power Company. Q. Now, suppose the town attempted to purchase power at wholesale from United Power Association, how would United Power Association accomplish the delivery of power to Elbow Lake? | A. Well, there probably are a couple of ways that it could be done. United could make arrangements with the Bureau Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 537 so that in exchange for United delivering power to the Bureau at some point, and this is hypothetical, that the Bureau would deliver power to United at Morris and then an arrangement would have to be made under a wheeling contract to move power north from the Bureau’s connection at Morris on up to, over the Otter Tail 41.6 kv subtransmission line to the town of Elbow Lake. The other would be to build a transmission line from the Elk River system to Elbow Lake and as best to my [T. V, 67] knowledge on the capacity of the UPA system, that would be a rather lengthy transmission line. Q. Would you say that would have feasibility? A. That would not have feasibility. Q. Now, you are aware, are you not, of the fact that Otter Tail and UPA are parties to an integrated transmission agree- ment, are you not? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, how would power be delivered to Elbow Lake as you understand that contractual arrangement pursuant to that contract between or among others, Otter Tail and UPA? Mr. Field: That's an exhibit, isn’t it, Mr. Anderson? Mr. Anderson: It is. The Witness: I don’t know how or whether— Mr. Field: Exhibit 40 is the United Power Association transmission service agreement between it and several com- panies, By Mr. Anderson: Q. You have a copy of it there? . A. Yes. When I indicated that I did not know whether this transaction was possible under this agreement, I didn’t find any provision whereby Otter Tail is required to wheel power — 538 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson for these type of customers under the agreement. [T. V, 68] This is a broad type transmission service agreement between the companies and does not seem to facilitate the transaction that you have described to me here. Q. Now, suppose Elbow Lake decided to try to buy some power at wholesale from Runestone Electric Cooperative, Would you explain to the Court how delivery of power from Runestone to Elbow Lake could be accomplished? A. Well, based on GX-206, Runestone does not appear to have subtransmission facilities in the area of Elbow Lake. There is shown about three-quarters of an inch due east of the circle that we have marked as Elbow Lake, a short blue line extension with a blue circle labeled CPA. So I would presume that that is the facility now owned by CPA that could be used for service to Runestone; and that being so, power would still have to move from that blue facility over the orange facility westward to get to Elbow Lake, and it would seem to me that Runestone or CPA would have to make arrangements with Otter Tail Power Company to wheel the power from that sec- tion of line owned by CPA to Elbow Lake. Q. Now, is Runestone a member of CPA? A. That’s my understanding. Q. And would the arrangements for delivery of power to Runestone and this area be embraced within the document we have marked as GX-22 which is the integrated transmission agreement between CPA and Otter Tail Power Company? [T. V, 69] A. Well, based on my reading of this agree- ment it would appear that Runestone and CPA would have to secure the approval of Otter Tail in order to sell power on a wholesale basis to Elbow Lake. Q. In order to arrange delivery of the power? A. Delivery of the power, correct. Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 539 Q. Well, suppose the town of Elbow Lake turned Basin Electric Power Cooperative and sought to have Basin sell the power wholesale. How could Basin accomplish delivery of power to the town of Elbow Lake? A. Well, I have first-hand knowledge having participated in the negotiation of the contract that Basin Electric under its contract with the Bureau has the right to use the surplus capacity up to 200 megawatts in the existing Bureau system for the payment of an annual wheeling charge which is cal- culated on a postage stamp rate over the entire eastern divi- sion of the Bureau of Reclamation. So Basin would have the right to take power from its thermal plant at Stanton, North Dakota, and request the Bureau to wheel part of that power to the Morris substation of the Bureau at which point the Bureau is connected to the Otter Tail system. From the Morris substation up to Elbow Lake Power would have to move either over the existing facility of Otter Tail, existing subtransmission facility of Otter Tail or over a new facility to be constructed by someone, a [T. V, 70] duplicating facility. Q. Well, suppose the town of Elbow Lake decided to build a line to connect itself with the Bureau substation at Morris. Would you give us your opinion as to the feasibility of the town of Elbow Lake building a line for the sole purpose of connecting the Elbow Lake system with the Forman substa- tion—or the Morris substation of the Bureau of Reclamation? A. Yes. With the same qualification I placed on the esti- mate for Hankinson, because I have not been in the field to view the construction problems, I would note that there are already three lines going northward from Morris to the direc- tion of Elbow Lake, and I would have some reservations about costs of right of way of putting a fourth line through there AY eA 540) Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson now, but notwithstanding that I have used the same cost esti- mates assuming that it’s 29 miles, or that you could find right of way for a line that would reach between Morris and Elbow Lake and would be approximately 29 miles in length at $10,007 per mile, would be $310,000 Now, I will put in the one step larger size substation at El. bow Lake because of the small incremental cost difference with a substation costing $85,000 with escalation. Not know. ing who would furnish the termina] facility in the Bureau substation at Morris, I have added another $61,000, the same figure I used at Hankinson, and I would come up with a total cost of this project of $446,000. [IT. V. 71] Now, cost is not the sole matte of considera- tion here, because here, again, these are estimates for a radial line, a line that does not have two-way service except as such service can be provided for a number of years by using the existing Elbow generation to back it up. At such time as the load at El e exceeded the reasonable capability of their two generating units, this line would have to be ex- tended to some other facility in order to provide loop service in case of an outage. Q. As I understand the problem of radial lines, if you are connected by a radial line your source is over here, something goes wrong with that source, and you are out of power? A. You have a complete blackout, that is correct. Q. Whereas, if you have loop service and connected on two ends, then you have assurance that if one source on the one side is out, the other source will pick up and provide the power? A. Yes. There is always, of course, the possibility of, with a tornado going in the direction of a line, to take out the line on both sides, but that’s rather remote and there is less likeli- Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 541 bood of that than there is for some situation to cause the outage of the radial line which would put the town in the black. 1 ; Q. Well, pow, as you look at GX-206, you notice that Cr. V, 72) some of these Bureau lines pass fairly close, and this is shown more closely on 440, some of the Bureau lines pass quite closely to towns served at retail by Otter Tail. Now, suppose you have a situation where you have a 230 kv Bureau line passing adjacent to a town which has, say, 500 people in it, no substation there at all. Could you give us your opinion as to the feasibility of a town in that situation tapping to the Bureau 280 kv line so as to be able to obtain Bureau power and so as to have power for its municipal system? A. In my opinion, it would be entirely unfeasible, and I can perhaps demonstrate that by giving a range of costs of making such a connection. I have to give a range of costs because the hypothetical question that you asked, it is not. known what type of protection the Bureau of Reclamation engineers would require on the major 230 kv bulk transmis- sion line for a substantial tap as you have suggested. A complete protection scheme in which there would be pro- tective breakers or circuit breakers put on both sides of the tap, using a reasonably small transformer, could cost to the order of $800,000. For a city of 500, it would not be feasible. If the Bureau permitted you to tap the line and only put in protection for the substation transformer that you would pro- pose to use to serve a city of 500, the cost would be to the order of half a million dollars, [T. V, 73] and this, too, is prohibitive. So in my opinion, you would not consider it with the availabil- ity of other underlying subtransmission systems, and an engineer would have to look very hard at finding ways and means to use an existing 115 or 41.6 kv facility before you * — 542 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson tapped one of these major transmission lines for such a small duty. Q. In other words, what you would have to do is create 3 little substation to serve the town? A. That is correct. 5 Q. The town cannot use power which is delivered at 230 kv, as I understand it? A. It is not possible. Q. It has to be stepped down through a process 80 that eventually it reaches what voltage? A. Probably 12,000 volts, from 230,000 volts you would have to step it down to 12,000 volts. I have never known in the Missouri Basin area of such a substation having been built. The Court: Is this a good time for us to recess for about ten minutes? Mr. Anderson: Yes, Your Honor. (Recess taken.) — — By Mr. Anderson: Q. Before the recess, we were talking about a hypothetical situation where a town of about 500 people [T. V, 74] located adjacent to a 230 kv line, the feasibility of tapping that line so as to obtain power from it. Now, suppose we have a situation where we have a 230 kv line, no substation, no existing substation in the area, and we have a town of, say, about 500 people located 15 or 20 miles from the 230 kv line. Now, in your judgment, would that town be able to feasibly tap the 230 kv line so as to obtain power from that line? A. In my opinion, no, and I can support that by adding to the estimates that I gave previously. Assume that your hypothetical town of 500 is 20 miles. You would add to the $800,000 estimate I gave previously or the $500,000 estimate, Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 543 — you would add 20 miles times 310,700 a mile or add another $214,000. Now, on top of this, you would have to step down at the end of that 20-mile section from 41.6 kv to, assume, again, 12,000 volts, if that is the using voltage of the town, and again you have another 80,000 added to that. So you can gee in the first instance I gave you you would be up to a mil- lion dollars and in the second instance you would be up to three-quarters of a million dollars, which is just out of the question for a town of that size. There’s got to be a better way to do it. [T. v. 75) d. So in making sure I understand this, in the situation we have been talking about, the first thing the town would have to do is in effect construct a substation at the point of interconnection with the 230 kv line, step the power down? A. Right. Q. And the line it would build to transport the power from that substation to the town would be, I think as you indicated, 41 kv? A. That’s right. Q. Then once the line reaches the town then there has to be another substation to step it down in order to effect de- livery in the town? A. Yes. Now, the other alternative could be, but again this leads to proliferation of lines, you could step it down at the point of contact and extend a 12 kv line from that step-down substation the 20 mile distance. Well, again, you would have the problem of a 20-mile radial line, 12 kv with limited capac- ity. In my opinion it’s just not good engineering. Q. Soin addition to the problem of cost here, you have the problem of reliability assuming it’s a radial line? A. That’s right. 541 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson Q. Mr. Trommershausen, how do you define the term wholesale sale as that term is commonly: used in the electric LT. v, 76] power industry? A. Well, a wholesale sale as I have come to use it, is a sale that’s made by one utility to another. The purpose of the trans. action is to provide power from one party to the other that the other party can resell to its retail customers, whether they be residential, commercial, industrial or whatnot. Q. A sale for resale, is that another way of putting it? A. Sale for resale, right. Q. Now, are there different varieties of wholesale sales in the electric power industry? A. Yes, there are. And as we get farther and farther into this complex power pooling situation, there are new terms and new concepts coming up all the time, but let’s begin with some of the more routine sales. First there is what they call a requirement’s sale. This is a sale, for instance, where a cooperative or a municipality decides to purchase all of its power from a single wholesale power supplier in which case the wholesale power supplier for the term of the contract must agree to provide whatever power, what total power requirements the purchaser needs. A second type of sale of which many are made involves partial requirements. A partial requirement’s [T. V, 77] sale is one wherein one utility has some generation that’s still usable, but he doesn’t want to continue to expand his genera- tion using small, inefficient, high-cost units. In that event, he would find it economically advantageous to buy a portion of his future power requirements for load growth from another wholesale supplier, and in that event, the parties would enter into a partial requirement’s wholesale power contract. _ Tromm.ershausen, Direct by Anderson 545 Then there are other refined situations coming into being because since power grids are getting so expansive and cover time zone changes and cover seasonal changes, it has been possible to sell what they call seasonal power. Some people have their load in the summertime and they can use a block of power very efficiently in the summertime. Other utilities have a winter peak and they can use a block of power for a four- to six-month winter season, and so it’s common now in many parts of the country to have seasonal sales. There are other sales which in this area are called participa- tion sales. This has come about because people are joining hands and building large, efficient generating units and take, for example, one owner who builds a unit larger than he can absorb within his own load, he will sell out a block of that power to another utility for a specified period of time. Gen- erally speaking, those sales [T. V, 78] are based on the output of the unit under contract and are not classified as firm power since the purchaser has to carry his own reserves. There are other sales being made under formal contracts where you provide emergency service during the loss of a generating unit due to an unscheduled outage. And there are other sales being made written on a prear- ranged basis, you schedule an outage to maintain a major machine, and so you would buy firm power on a weekly, monthly or seasonal basis from another utility for mainte- nance power. So I think these generally describe the type of sales shat are now being made in the industry. Q. Now, have you had occasion, Mr. Trommershausen, to review the special municipal electric service agreements which Otter Tail has entered into with the towns to whom it pro- vides wheeling service? 546 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson A. Yes. I have reviewed-them generally. Q. Now, I show you GX-8 which is the agreement between the Village of Tyler and Otter Tail, and I ask you to look at it and tell us whether in your judgment that contract is in part a contract for the provision of a sale for resale arrangement? A. Yes. This contract which is entitled a special municipal electric service agreement provides for not only [T. V, 79] the wheeling of a block of Bureau power at the maximum rate of 400 kilowatts, but it also provides that for needs of the city above its generating plant of 900 kilowatts, that wholesale power is available from Otter Tail Power Company under a service schedule and rate included in the agreement. Q. Well, looking specifically at the contract, would you point to the sections of it which you have denominated as sales for resale type provisions? A. Well, basically the fact that Tyler is a retailer of elec- tricity, I don’t know of anything else that it could do with the electricity, it purchases either from the Bureau or the com- pany than to resell it. Tyler is not a consumer, a consumer of the commodity of electricity. It sells it and its retail consumers consume or use this commodity. So basically this is a—the entire arrangement is a wholesale contract for resale. Q. Well, apart from the wheeling aspect of the contract, the contract as I understand it, in part, is an arrangement whereby Otter Tail delivers power sold for resale by the Bu- reau to the town. Would you point to anything in addition to that wheeling part of the contract which in your judgment is indicative of the wholesale sale’s type arrangement? A. Yes. Section 3.3. Mr. Field: I was going to say, [T. V, 80] while I don't agree with your characterization of it, was going to suggest 3.3. Is that what you were looking for? Wen een Buren ben lden The Witness: Yes. Section 3.3 on page five. By Mr. Anderson: Q. What's that entitled? A. “Firm electric service.” And this service can only be used by Tyler for resale. Mr. Field: I object to the witness characterizing a service. Let’s take the language of the contract if that’s what’s perti- nent here rather than some characterization of it. IT. v. 81] The Court: Do I have the same exhibit as you all, 3.8 or 3? Mr. Field: It’s Exhibit 3. Mr. Anderson: We are now talking about Section 3.3 which is on page 5 of Exhibit GX-3. I withdraw that. I am just asking his opinion as an expert, Your Honor, as to whether his judgment as a man who spent the better part of his life involving himself in both power supply and analyzing matters of this sort, his opinion that this provision is a wholesale sale type provision. 3 The Court: You may answer the question. The Witness: The answer is yes. By Mr. Anderson: Q. Now, looking at another contract, this one, one between Otter Tail and the Village of Shelly, this is dated August 25, 1970, GX-11. A. have it. Q. What is the term of that contract? ; A. It’s ten years from December 21, 1970. Q. Now, in your opinion does that contract contain within it a provision for the sale of wholesale power by Otter Tail to Shelly ? Mr. Field: Now, if Your Honor please, we object to these questions as to his opinion as to [T. V, 82] what the contract 548 Trommershousen, Direct by Andersen provides. It’s a generalization that is going to be referred to, presumably, later. This characterizing a contract, actually special municipal contracts, as was true of Tyler and pre- sumably Shelly is similar in this respect, provide for Otter Tail furnishing service over and above what they need from the Bureau or from their own generating station upon notice and as may be subject to the ability of Otter Tail to furnish as determined by Otter Tail and so forth, I mean the contract provisions are quite specific. To characterize that as an ordi- nary wholesale sale in my opinion is not the function of the ' witness, it’s the function of the lawyer and the Court. The Court: You may answer the question. The Witness: I consider the Shelly contract which does provide that when Shelly has exceeded its Bureau allocation, that again the company notice and by firm electric service; and when they do that the contract further states that the municipality agrees to take and pay for all of the electric power required by the municipality and use them in the mu- nicipality system in addition to power it receives from the Bureau. Now, if the problem we are having is used in the municipality system, the only use a municipal system can have is to buy power for reselling. So with that explanation I con- sider this a wholesale sale for resale. IT. V, 83] Q. And now, using Exhibit GX-11 as a basis, would you compute for the Court the cost to Shelly of Bureau power? I am including the cost of the power and the cost of delivering it to the municipal gate, tell us what the total cost in mills is. A. Well, not having the specific information on the load characteristics of Shelly, but assuming it’s average for other preference municipal customers served by the Bureau, Shelly would pay the Bureau about 5 mills per kilowatt hour. It would Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson 549 pay one and a half mills to Otter Tail for firming service, which is a charge which has been paid by municipal systems and cooperatives in the area. There is a special connection facilities charge because Otter Tail was required by a step down substation from 41.6 kv to the city’s voltage, which would cost Shelly another 5 mills, and as I read the contract, Shelly has to absorb the line losses in the Otter Tail system which I estimate to be about .5 mills and you total those fig- ures and the cost of Bureau power to Shelly comes out to 12 mills per kilowatt hour. Q. Did you say the cost to Shelly of line losses was 5 mills or point 5 mills? A. Point 5 mills. Q. Using that same contract, namely,.the one between Otter Tail and Shelly, would you compute for us what it would cost, what it will cost Shelly to purchase power at wholesale [T. v, 84] from Otter Tail, delivered to the town? A. Well, again using the rates schedule that is included in the Shelly contract and on the assumption that Shelly has a 50 percent load factor in this instance, the cost of power, without reference to any fuel adder, since I don’t know what that fuel adder is for the Otter Tail system at this time, it would cost about 14.8 mills per kilowatt hour to buy power from Otter Tail delivered to the city gate. Q. One last question. I show you GX-441 which is the annual report, form 1 annual report filed by Otter Tail with the FPC for the year end December 31, 1970, I will ask you if you will look at that and tell me whether there is any indica- tion in that document as to the volume of wholesale sales by Otter Tail Power Company in the calendar year 1970? A. I find two references. The first appears on Page 409, line 11, under a table that reports the operating revenues, the „ 550 Trommershausen, Direct by Anderson kilowatt hours sold and the average number of customers per month for the Otter Tail system for the calendar year 1970. On line 11, it shows that the operating revenues for the year “for sales for resale” is $1,550,200 and there were 215,308,600 kilowatt hours sold. Now, it shows that both in operating revenues and kilowatt hours sold, this was an increase over the previous year. IT. v., 85] Then if you turn again to page 413, which is account 447 of the Federal Power Commission entitled “Sales — for resale,” these sales figures are found at the bottom of the page with the supporting data preceding it. Mr. Anderson: That is all I have, Your Honor. The Court: Was that Exhibit Number 440 7 Mr. Anderson: 441, Your Honor. I am sorry, I forgot to give you this. It is page 409 and page 413. The Court: You may examine, Counsel. Mr. Field: If Your Honor please, before I get into my broader scope of cross examination, I would like to refer to a few items, starting with the end of the direct examination, and that is FPC one report for 1970, Exhibit 441. CROSS-EXAMINATION By Mr. Field: Q. You referred to two pages, 409 and 413 as showing sales for resale and called our attention to the fact that the same totals were on pages 413 and 409, so they are the same transactions, I gather? A. That is the assumption I made. [T. V, 86] Q. We have more detail on page 413 as to what makes up those totals, as I see it? Do you recognize that? Trommershausen, Cross by Field 551 A. Yes, I do. . Are you familiar with the Upper Mississippi Valley Power pool? A. Generally familiar, yes. Q. That agreement is also an exhibit in this case? A. That is right. Q. Whether you have got a chance to review = A. I have reviewed it. Mr. Field: What is the number of that, for the record, the main contract? There are supplements. Mr. Anderson: GX-23, I believe. That is the basic agree- ment. By Mr. Field: Q. In your examination of the Upper Mississippi Valley Power Pool agreement, do you recognize that the transactions that are recorded in total with certain labels on page 413 of this FPC one represent transactions under the pool agree- ment? A. That is my understanding, yes, sir. Q. I see. They are not sales to Shelly or to any of these other towns that have special municipal electric service agree- ments, are they? IT. v. 87] A. No, and as I indicated earlier, any power that you purchase from anybody else has got to be resold. There is no other purpose for buying power or generating power. Q. If we can just answer the questions we will get along a little faster. You recognize there are no sales to any municipalities re- ported in 1970? A. I agree to that, right. 552 Trommershausen, Cross by Field Q. Asa matter of fact, as you may know, there has never been a kilowatt hour sold under this schedule 3.3 in these special municipal contracfs such as Shelly, as an example, or don’t you know that? A. I haven't checked that because I assumed up to now these 17 customers of the type of Shelly are still using their Bureau power and haven’t had to call on the company for the purchase of power that is possible under that contract. Q. So you wouldn’t have any quarrel with the assertion that there hasn't been a kilowatt hour sold under that sched- ule, called for or sold, either one? A. I have no first-hand knowledge that there has been. Q. Do you recognize this, too, that these transactions under the Mississippi Valley Power Pool, which presumably are like other pools in some respects, at least, have special characteristics, among them being that they are reciprocal, the rights and obligations go both ways? [T. V, 88] A. Yes, sir, I understand that. Q. So that one time, one of the members of the pool may be interested in buying what you call, for example, participa- tion power and at another time be interested in selling it, depending upon the capacity of generation of one supplier or another and perhaps other factors? A. Yes, that goes with the transactions that are working out, right. Q. And the price at which these pool transactions are made are set by the agreements entered into which make the forma- tion of the pool? In general, that is true, isn’t it? A. Yes, which agreement, I understand, and the rates attached, service schedule attached are approved by the Fed- eral Power Commission. Q. I will accept that. They are filed with the Federal Power Commission? — Trommershausen, Cross by Field 553 A. Yes, sir. Q. What I am getting at is, the schedule for exchange of these area services under the pool arrangements are fixed by contract, and, as you say, they are filed with the Federal Power Commission but they are a contractual arrangement to start with fixed by the parties? A. Yes, sir. q. Yes. And membership in the pool is from different [T. v, 89] segments of the electric industry? By “segments,” I mean both investor-owned and cooperatives in the Upper Mis- sissippi Valley Power Pool, at least? A. Yes, only those two categories. Q. And would you recognize this, that the prices at which the interchange of these various services, the prices are fixed at a value that will encourage the flow both ways between the parties ? A. I haven't participated in the negotiations of those rate schedules, sir, but I would presume that in all workable power pools, there’s got to be mutual benefits and it’s possible that rates could be set to achieve mutual benefits. Q. And to encourage the flow both ways of the different services ? n — A. Yes, over a period of time. Q. Yes, over a period of time. A. On a take-your-turn basis, yes, sir. Q. And I suppose you would also recognize that the costs of the different suppliers in the pool would be at different levels, that is, the cooperatives would have a different level of costs than the investor-owned utilities in the same pool? A. Yes, but I presume those differences were taken care of during the negotiations that established the rates that are now set in the service schedule. — 554 Trommershausen, Cross by Field CT. v, 90] Q. First, you recognize that there is a dif. ference? A. Yes. Q. And if the services are going to be exchanged on a flow one way one time and a flow another way another time, they would need to be fixed as something that was mutually agreed upon that would be advantageous for the flow both ways, which wouldn’t necessarily be associated with the costs of either party? A. Well, not the specific cost at the time. I presume when you average this out, as you must over a five or ten-year peri- od, that you would recover your costs. Otherwise, you wouldn't enter into the transaction. Q. Perhaps I don’t make myself clear. If the benefit of the pool is to achieve a reciprocal exchange of these services, the benefit would be the fact that when you sold you expected to get it back in due course of time? Wouldn’t that be one of the major benefits of the arrangement? A. Get the commodity back or the dollars back? Q. The commodity? A. Yes, yes. Q. And in order, for example, to make it advantageous a cooperative to purchase power from an investor-owned utility, both of them belonging to the pool, in exchange for the inves- tor-owned selling to them when the reverse excess capacity was in existence the price would have to be fixed at [T. V, 91] level that would encourage the flow both ways, isn’t that true? A. Yes. Q. To make myself clear, if a cooperative’s costs were lower than the investor-owned utility’s cost for the commodity, which I guess you will concede at the time is the usual situa- tion, won’t you? — Trommershausen, Cross by Field 555 A. I can’t concede your use of the term “usual,” Mr. Field, because there’s a transition in the power program of coopera- tives. As yo [Text truncated at 120,000 characters. The full text is on the page linked above.] --- Source: Frix Law Library, https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40386414_0104%3A02. Public record. Not legal advice.