# Appendix — Federal Maritime Comm'n v. Aktiebolaget Svenska Amerika Linien > Briefs, arguments, decisions, and more. URL: https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40386412_0135%3A01 ## Record - **Collection:** Supreme Court brief - **Document type:** Appendix - **Published:** January 1, 1968 - **Citation:** 390 U.S. 238 ## Text TABLE OF CONTENTS — App. si 4 Docket Before the Commission o ile ia _ Commission Order ‘of: Investigation ....... _— la Excerpt From Commission Prehearing Conference “i 3a Excerpts From Testimony .... 7 tices Wirnessss ti lt ° Bowe ae a Donald I. Knowles Se pig eae Direet i 48-51 5a Cross _— os hia 260-62 8a ET ea ee eae 26 | Redirect | 321-29 9a Recross * 353-54 15a Direct | ' 1850-53 56a - Cross: :. | 2012 65a Cross .... ) ) 2498-2500 137a an , i Manuel J. Gibbs eS Direct §70-74 * 1a. Cross ........ . 595-96 = 18a Recross ......... | 607-08. 1929 — . * +. 610-12 ee Oe - ES n wn App. : : ° . ; ® : he Pages Page . 2 Y Direct Leciesieas * —«OBS-BB- Slaw John Stark Garby e pe ea waa eat es" Direct ; "ec Pe 715-16 22a Emanuel E. Erber 4 yank a4 Direct ) chee 11883-84 Cross ....... | | -.. 1899-1900 61a . aes 1944-45 Redirect Ss 1988-51 \ le ‘ rn = William H. McC ae an} Direct’ Cross onnell iv > » Veen ‘ Redirect . “Becross a Tarleton Winchester - _ Direct J oo : = Cross ..... 7 2185-86 - App. 70a 2191-99 2207 2209-15 (2222-24 , 2299 2233-34 2250-56 . _ 2265-87 2289 2300-01, 2303 2304 2308-10: 2312-13 | * 2316-17 4 9399-96 2328-39 2348-49 "2357-60 2370-73 2375-76. 2383-86 2394-96 2404-05 2421.95 2432-35 ExHIsITs "Redirect Further Direct : Further Cross Direct . Cross * Raymond H. Hering : Transcript App. - Pages Page - 243843 132a am 2464-65 1358 2465-67 (136% 2574-89 1450. 2607 1540 Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit " Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit ~ Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit . Es ‘bit Exhibit 2 37 ‘Exhibit Pxhibit 50. 52 _ Exhibit 54 * Bxhibit Exhibit : _ Exhibit Exhibit eal Exhibit 66 2c. Exhibit | Exhibit Exhibit Exhibit _ Exhibit Exhibit” Exhibit | Exhibit _ Exhibit Exhibit. Exhibit _ Exhibit -” Exhibit | Exhibit 59 60 62°. 67 68 +t 1S) _ [SY ~ 117 "Exhibit 119° ‘Exhibit 126 135 138 . —_ > 2 App. 7” . he : : . ? 7 Page - Initial Decision of E. Robert Seaver, Hearing Ex- 3 ae I a snisnesigenenstineni me's 402a Commigsion’s Opinion and Order Served February ie | ‘19, 1964 ......: ei scion | 451la _. Petition-for Review .:.... . .. 504a | Prehearing Conference Stipulation 512a.. Prehearing Order ..:.......: oes §16a » Opinion of Court of Appeals for the District. of *. Columbia Circuit, 351 F. 2d 756 (1965) — «517a | ‘Commission N otice of Reopening of Proceeding Served August 18, 1965 | \.... 5298 Commission Report’ and Order on Remand Served ‘July 20, 1966 | 531a . Additional Excerpts From Testimony 3 .. 588a - -Wirwesses | Transcript - a. Donald I. Knowles‘ ” CORD pecicee . . , 26465: 588a PEs Redirect | . 329-30 589a IN . Recross e. 7 | 372-73 590a qe Manuel J. Gibbs | = ee | ' Cross ~~ 594 590a_ a 7° ae PET A = 22 en ee Ta ie SiR ie i al Re soe MOS TOeNNE PYoS OT > Joseph Neufeld. Cross. . Redirect 863-65 Recross | _ Max B. Allen _ Cross Ralph Edell ok ee Cross .... ‘ Louis Schenker Cross . Thomas J. Donovan ' . Direct . Cross Recross Robert W. Hemphill han Direct ..: Cross William H. McConnell Direct Cross Tarleton Winchester | ‘Direct Cross _ ‘Transcript App. Pages Page 868 870-71 - 1338 1350-51 1389-90 1416-18 1475-77 1496-97 | 1893-94 1900 2167-68 2170-77 _ 23821 2360-62 age 592a 594a 595a 597a 599a, 613a ° 618a. 617a 620a ADDITIONAL ExuHIsIts Exhibit 53 Exhibit 67 Excerpts From Exhibit 96 Exhibit 99 for Identification Petition ie Review Served on September 16, 1966 : ) Order Providing for Use of J oint Appendix in a 18,554, ete. . Opinion and Judgment of Court of.Appeals for the. District of Columbia Circuit, 372 F. 2d 932 (1967) .. 65la 7% . . "™ . ‘ . . way . . - . . . : ~ - we - ee “A pplication to Intervene” filed by American So- ia . DOCKET BEFORE THE COMMISSION | ; Docket No. 873 Investigation of Passenger Steamship Conferences ssi Travel Agents ~ Pleadings, Orders ‘and Related Matters . 1. Order of the ‘Federal ‘Maritimé-Board’ (hereinafter the Board) dated November 2, 1959, entitled “In- vestigation of Passenger Steamship Conferences - Regarding Travel Agents,” consisting of two pages. . _ 2. Order of the Board dated N ovember 10, 1959, en- titled “Notice of ae and at Hearing,” | consisting of two pa i 3. “Petition for Leave to Intervene and Two (2) Mo- tions”; filed by James. F. McManus, dated Novem- ber 23, 1959, consisting of five pages. 4. “Petition to Intervene” filed by Travelers Club, Ine., ?: dated November 29, 1959, consisting of four pages. ciety of Travel-Agents, Inc., dated February 24, 1960, consisting of six pages. | 6. “Petition for Leave to Intervene” filed by Mary R. es McManus, dated May 10, 1961;: — of two pages. 7. “Reply of Western Tiabichese inane Confer- ence to Petition of James F. MeManus for Leave ee re jia +. Docket Beforé the Commission - Pleadings, Orders and Related Matters to Intervene and Expand the Proceeding to Include an Investigation of ‘Western Hemispliere Passen- . ger Conference” dated December 7, 1959, consisting. of four pages and “Affidavit in Support of Reply of. . ~ "Western Hemisphere Passenger Conference” dated December 4, 1959, consisting of four pages. _ «Motion of: Conferences to Dismiss or Deny Re- quest of James F. McManus” filed by Trans-~ Atlantic Passenger*Steamship. Conference and At- lantic Passenger Steamship Conference, dated De-. cember 11, 1959, consisting of eight pages. . _ “Answer of James F. McManus to Motion of Con- ferences, to Dismiss or Deny” dated December 14, 1959, consisting of two pages. | i . Order of the Board dated J anuary 21, 1960, grant- ing petition to intervene and denying two motions of James F. McManus, consisting of one page. . Ruling of the Presiding Examiner granting peti- tions to intervene of American Society of Travel Agents, Inc., and Travelers Club, Inc., dated March 15, 1960, consisting of one page. vt . Presiding Examiner’s “Notice .of Prehearing Con- ference,” dated April 26, 1960, consisting of one page. Reet . Presiding Examiner’s “Notice of Postponement of Prehearing Conference,” dated May 4, 1960, con- sisting of one page. | 14. 15. 16. dia — . Docket Before, the Commission Pleadings; Orders.and Related Matters Transcript of prehearing conference, dated Jurie ” 14, 1960, consisting of forty-eight pages. “Motion of American Society of Travel Agents for Production of Documents by the Respondent Lines and Conferences,” dated June 21, 1960, consisting of nineteen pages, and letter dated June 24, 1960, containing additional arguments in support of mo- - .tion consisting of two pages. : “Reply on Behalf: of Respondents to Motion of American Society of Travel Agents for Production _ of Documents,” filed by Trans-Atlantic Passenger 17. , 18.. 19, ‘20. Steamship Conference and Atlantic Passenger Steamship Conference, dated July 5, 1960, con- sisting of fourteen pages. | Presiding Examiner’s “Ruling on Motion for Pro- duction of Documents,” dated July 7; 1960, con- sisting of three pages. | “Motions & Demands” filed by James F. McManus, dated August 18, 1960, consisting of two pages, amd attached “Exhibit ‘A,” consisting of one page. “Reply. of Respondent Steamship Eines to. the Mo- tions and Demands of ‘James F. McManus,” dated August ‘29, 1960, consisting of seven pages. “Motion” filed by J ames F. McManus, dated Au- gust 31, 1960, consisting of three pages. ; Presiding Examiner's “Ruling on Motions of James © . F.. MeManus, Intervener,” dated September 14, 1960, consisting of two pages. CN ROT RR RY ATP POR CANO ree RETIRE RIALS . a ac lt iva Docket Before thg Commission - — | acre Pleadings, Orders an#\Related Matters 92. Board’s order denying motion of intervener James F. McManus to the extent not ruled upon by Pre- _ siding. Examiner, dated September 28, 1960, con- : sisting of one page. y | 28. Presiding Examiner’s “Notice of Further Prehear- ing Conference,” dated November 14, 1960, consist- ing of one page. . 24. Presiding Examiner’ s “Notice of fnlargenient of - Time to File Replies,” dated January 4, 1961, con- sisting of one page. © 25. “Motion of American Society of Travel Agents de . Depositions Based on Written Interrogatories and for Further Production of Documents by: the Re- spondent Lines and Conferences,” dated December ~ — 28, 1960, consisting of twenty-five “pages. 26. “Reply on Behalf of Respondents to Motion of "American Society of Travel Agents for Deposi- tions and for Further Production of Documents,” filed by Trans-Atlantic Passenger Steamship Con- . ference, and Atlantic Passenger Steamship Con- 8 ference, dated January -11, 1961, consisting of : twenty-one pages. © h 27. “Reply of Public Counsel to Motion of American’ | Society of Travel Agents for Depositions and Fur- _ ther. Production of Documents by Respondents,” dated January 5, 1961, consisting of four pages. 28. Subpena—served May 15, 1961, ont, Craig Cooper, President of Century Travel Service, Ine., con- "sisting of one page.’ ‘ eT RE SOI FEL GIELE VIE ER I AE EERE, I IIS OLDE rie Fe RE RIN Fem awe es ee oo - ova - Docket Before the Commission Pleadings, Orders and Related Matters 29. Subpena—served May 12, 1961, on iF oseph C. New- feld, President, Ambassador Travel Agencies, Ine., consisting of one page. . 80. Subpena—served May 16, 1961, on Eugene Ham- . mer, Manager, Roberts, Reilly and Sons, consisting of one page. : «BT. Subpena—served May 15, 1961, on Jean J. New- _ man, President, ‘Travel and Study, Inc. » consisting of one page. ‘ 32. Subpena—served May 15, 1961, on aie E. Erber, “ Coronet Travel Agency, consisting of one page: - * 33. Subpena—served May 12, 1961, on John Stark . Gorby, Stark Travel, eonsisting of one page. 34. Subpena—served May 24, 1961, on Max Allen, Ask Mr. Foster, consisting of one page. 35. Subperia—served May 25, 1961, on Ralph Edell, Brighton Travel Bureau, consisting of one page. 36. Subpena—served May 24, 1961, on Rabbi Hersch Kohn, consisting of one page. 37. Subpena—served May 24, 1961, on Louis Schenker, Internattanal Travel Bureau Inc. , consisting of one page. 38. Subpend—served May 25, 1961, on T. J. Donovan, - _Cartan Travel Bureau, consisting of one page. ‘39, Transcript of further prehearing conference, dated January 12, “1961, consisting of pages 49 dae a = a eS 40. 41. via — -. Docket Before the Commission «Pleadings, Orders and Related Matters Presiding Examiner’s “Notice of Hearing;” dated | January 17, 1961, consisting of one page. — Presiding Examiner’s “Notice of Enlargement of Time to Furnish Information,” dated February 24, 1961, consisting of one page. 42. 46. 47. Presiding Examiner’s “N otice of Further Siideees. ment of Time to Furnish Information and Exten- sion of Date for Exchange of Exhibits,”. dated _* March 27, 1961, consisting of one page. - 43. Public Counsel’s “Motion for Issuance of Order to Take Deposition,” dated March 31, 1961, consisting of four pages... Presiding Examiner’s “Notice of Reduction of Time for Filing Replies to Motion for Deposition Order,” dated April 3, 1961, consisting of one page. Presiding Examiner’s “Authorization to Take Dep- sition,” dated April 7, 1961, consisting of one page. Subpena—seryed May 15, 1961, on Gabriel Villa, ‘Executive-Vice President, Blue Cars, Inc, consist- ing of one page. ? ‘Subpena—served May 15, 1961, on Manuel J: Gibbs, ’ President, Gibbs Travel Bureau, consisting of one 49. ._page. Public ibinaits “Motion to File Enlarged Briefs,” . dated June 21,1961, consisting of two pages. | Presiding Examiner’s “Authorization for Increased Length of Briefs,” dated June 28, 1961, consisting of one page. , ae eee eae anT) ey ee ee sew LEB GLE AG RE AAP OPE AGT LIT rt YP WO ane $ a vila Docket Before the Commission ge . . Pleadings, Orders and Related Matters ~ 50. ‘51. 52. 53." 54. = BB. 56. Presiding Examiner’s “Notice of Enlargement’ of Time to File Briefs,” dated August 25, _ con- sisting of one page. Presiding Examiner’ s “Notice of Farther Enlarge- ment of Time to File Briefs,” dated October 26, 1961, consisting of one page. - Opening Brief of. Public Counsel, dated December 1, 1961, consisting of eighty-nine pages.. Opening Brief of American Society of Travel Agents, dated November 14, 1961, consisting of seventy-thyee pages. Opening Brief. to Examiner Arnold J. Roth on Behalf of Respondents ‘Trans-Atlantic Passenger Steamship Conference and .Atlantic Passenger Steamship: Conference, dated N ovember 16, 1961, * consisting of 50 pages. Reply Brief of Public Counsel, dated December 8, 1961, consisting of five pages. Reply Brief of Respondents Trans-Atlantic Pas- senger Steamship Conference and Atlantic Passen- ger Steamship Conference, dated December 8, 1961, consisting of fifty-one pages. - . Reply Brief of American Society of Travel Agents, © dated December 8, 1961, consisting of rik “ala pages. Federal Maritime Cheisisaaitahias (hereinafter the Commission) order ordering record to be certified to the Commission for initial decision, etc., dated January 15, 1962, consisting of one page. - remem. OI PME Ft RTO OO Oe we vegas The age ame acy Memnemep ” herve ae ie al inal ‘ e ps wg Pa 59. 61. 62. bd eee a Docket ‘Before the Commission : Pleadings, Orders and Related Matters Commission order vacating and setting aside order ‘of January 15, 1962,. dated February 7, 1962, con- sisting | of one page. . Chief Examiner’s “Notice of install” dated October 16, 1962, consisting of one page. . Initial Decision of the Hearing Examiner, dated January 24, 1963, consisting of seventy-one pages and transmittal letter dated January 28, 1963, con- sisting of one page. . “Motion to Enlarge Time for Filing Exceptions,” of American Society of Travel Agents, dated Feb- ruary: 1, 1963, consisting ‘of two pages. Commission order “Notice of Enlargement of Time to File Exceptions,” dated February 5, 1963, con- sisting of one page. 67. . EP PERE RON RR OT a vhoow tad ciilin iii . Commission order “Notice of Enlargement of Time . “to File Exceptions,” dated March 1, 1963, consist- ing of one page. . ; eae Commission order “Notice of Enlargement_of Time to File Exceptions,” dated March 27, 1963, con- ‘sisting of oné page. “Exceptions of Hearing Counsel, " dated April 5; . 1963, consisting of ten pages. ‘66: Commission order “Notice of Enlargement of Time - .. to File Exceptions,” dated April 15, 1963, consisting - of one page. Memorandum oc and Brief of American | Society of Travel Agents dated April 5, 1963, con- — of forty-eight-pages. —_ Oh RON EPRI RS YOR IEEE INT SSA Ms a al e kaa tes Reetoeal io ixa. Docket Before the Commission Pleadings, Orders and Related Matters 68. Exceptions on Behalf of Respondents to the Initial 69. Decision of Examiner E. Robert Seaver and Brief in Support of Trans-Atlantic Passenger Steamship ~ Conference and Atlantic Passenger Steamship Con- ference, dated’ a 5, 1963. os of forty . pages. Commission order “Notice of Enlargement of Time to File Replies to Exceptions,” dated May 3, 1963, consisting of one page. 70MRReply of Hearing Counsel to Exceptions,” dated 71. 72. 73. 74. one page. May 13, 1963, and consisting of nine. pages. “Reply Brief of Respondents to Exceptions and Briefs of American Society of Travel Agents and Hearing | Counsel” of Trans-Atlantic Passenger Steamship Conference and Atlantic Passenger Steamship Conference, dated anes A 13, 1963, con- : sisting of twenty-nine pages. “Reply to Respondents’ Exceptions” of American if Society of Travel Agents, dated May 10, 1963, con-- sisting of fifteen pages. Commission order “Notice of Oral Argument, vi dated June 5, 1963, consisting of one, page.’ Commission order “Notice of Allotment of Time for Oral Argument,” dated June 24, 1963, womewet a. of © Transcript of Oral ares. dated Tune 28, 1963, mages 1 se 108. . ye cae SD ee asic Disnbenlia tial ti weather cial okal aia oD tial PE ey mS : - a : 7 . : - xa Docket Before the Commision Pleadings, Orders and Re ped Matters 76. Report of the Commission, gated January 30, 1964, ° consisting of forty-five pages, with order attaibed (one page). 77. Commission ‘order’ transmitting page 13 for inser- tion in Commission Report, dated February 24, 1964, consisting of one page. 78. Motion of Respondents Trans-Atlantic Passenger Steamship Conference and Atlantic Passenger - Steamship Conference for Extension of Time to * ° File Modifications of Agreements No. 120 and No. 7840 and Rules Thereunder, dated April 14, 1964, consisting of seven pages. ’ > 79. Commission order “Extension of Time to Comply,” _. dated April 30, 1964, consisting of two pages. _ 80. Opinion of Court of Appeals for the District of. Columbia Circuit, 122 U. S. App. D. C. 59, 351 F. 2d 756 (1965). | 81. First. Supplemental Order of the Commission Fol-- lowing Its Consideration of Modifications Filed by _ the Parties to This Proceeding in Accordance With the Commission’s Order of January 30, 1964; April 2, 1965, consisting of six Peers. 82. Petition of Respondents for ‘Reconsideration of. ~/“ Certain Parts of First Supplemental Order of the . Commission Served April 2, 1965; April 30, 1965, . 10 pages. : 83. Reply of American Society of Travel abit Ince., to Respondents’ Petition for Reconsideration of the ‘Commission’s Order of April 2, 1965; nine pages. Fa a a a a laa ile ee a : SSO STAPN RSIS IL EL EPIL SEED PE PE YR IONE TE Oe 86. 91. ao 'h ‘Motion by Respondents for a Stay of the Commis- xia - | Docket Before the Commission as Pleadings, Orders and Related Matters” Second Supplemental Order of the Commigsion Fol- — lowing Its Consideration of Petition. Fildd by the Parties to This‘Proceeding for Reconsideration of Certain Parts of First Supplemental Order Served April 2, 1965; July 2, 1965, four pages. Motion of Respondents for Extension of. Time to File Certain Modifications of Agreements No: 120° and No. 7840; July 28, 1965, 13 pages. Denial .of Motion - ‘of Respondents for Extension of . Time to File Cer | Modifications to Agreements No. 120 and No, 7840 and Third Supplemental Or- der; August 2, 1965, three pages. . Notice of Reopening of Proceeding; — 18, 1965, two pages. Enlargement of Time for Compliance; September 1, 1965, one page. ’ . Motion to Enlarge Time for Filing Briefs and for Waiver of the Requirement of Printing ; cuptemal 1, 1965, two pages. Enlargement of Time for Filing Briefs ; eared 38, 1965, one page. Motion by. Respondents for Suspension of Order Pending Judicial ‘Determination of Respondents’ Petition for Stay; September 10, 1965, three pages. Reply of American Society of Travel Agents to sion’s Order; September 17, 1966, eight pages, to- xiia Docket Before the Commission - Pleadings, Orders and Related Matters gether with Motion to Dismiss the Petition for Review of a Final Order of the Federal Maritime Commission; September 17, 1965, 19 pages, and . _ Motion for Leave to Intervene; September 17, 1965, 93. 96. 97. 98. 99. 100. . Lk i ae eel PEPE LA ES TOO LAT STORER LEG IO. EIR ETI LP OE EOE LIM ee ee Ee FD PIF PLEIN IPE LIMOS _ six pages. Enlargement of Time for 7 Briefs ; ena 17, 1965, one page. Respondents’ Brief Dinieint to Notice of Reopen- ing ; edie: 17, 1965, eight pages. » ‘Brief of Hearing Counsel on Reopening of Pro- ceeding ; September 21, 1965, 24 pages. Opening Brief of American Society of Travel — _ Agents in Reopened Proceedings; September 21, 1965, 47 pages; Appendix A, ASTA’s Opening Brief — to Hearing Examiner, 74 pages;. Appendix B, ASTA’s Memorandum of Exceptions, 49 pages; Ap- "pendix C, ASTA’s Reply to earn Excep- . tions, 16 pages. Denial of Motion of Diiapenttnts for Sonpension © of Order Pending Judicial Determination of Respon- dents’ Petition for Stay; September 28, 1965, two pages. Respondents’ Reply Brief on Deonening of Pro- ceedings ; October 8, 1965, 11 pages. Reply Brief of Hearing Counsel; October 8, 1965, | 12 pages. Notice of Oral eee October: 27, 1965, one 101. 102. 103. 104. 105. 106. ~ 107. eee a Docket Before the Commission Pleadings, Orders and Related Matters Allotment of Time at Oral ‘A sineenin N ovember 10, 1965,-one page. Transcript of Oral Argument; N ovember 15, 1965, Volume I, pages 1 thru 130. . ) Report on Remand; July 20, 1966, 45 pages. Order; July .20, 1966, one page. Motion of Respondents for Stay and Extension of Time to File Modifications of Agreement No. 7840 and Agreement No. 120 and _ Rules Thereunder; — . August 23, 1966, four pages. Reply of Hearing Counsel to ‘Motion of Respon- dents for Stay; August 29, 1966, three pages. Reply .of American Society of Travel Agents to Motion by Respondents for a Stay and Extension of Time to File Modifications of Agreement No. _ 7840 and Agreement No. 120. and Rules There- 108. under ;: August’ 30, 1966, four pages. : Denial of Motion for Stay and Extension of Time; September 12, 1966, two pages. 15. 16. xiva - Docket Before the Commission = of cineca | Vol. 1, pages 1.158. Vol. II, pages 200-400. - . Vol. ITI, pages 401-562. Vol. IV, pages 563-711. Vol. "V, pages 712-915. Vol. VI, pages 916.1077. | Vol. VII, pages 1078-1226. Vol. Vill, pages 1227 -1399. Vol. IX, pages 1400-1556. . Vol. X, pages 1557-1706. : . Vol. XI, pages 1707-1865. Vol. XII, pages 1866-2028, . Vol. XITI,-pages 2029-2121. Vol. XIV, pages 2122-2317. Vol. XV, pages 2318-2468. Vol: XVI, pages 2469-2618. Pe coeetDNOAcERte i ee ro genera ST ERR ST xva Docket Before the Commission .- ‘Exhibits 1. Federal Maritime Board Agreement No. 120-76, dated December 21, 1960, consisting of one page front and back, Agreement No. 120-75, dated January 19, 1960, ' consisting of one page front and back and.Agreement No. 120, approved _February_ 12, 1929, as amended to December 22, 1958, consisting of thirty pages. 2. Board Agreement No. 7840-40, dated May 27, 1960, consisting of three pages front and back; Agreement No. 7840-39, dated Mayago, 1960, consisting. of three pages front and back; Agreement No. 7840-38, dated May 18, 1960, consisting of one page; Agreement — No. 7840-37, dated May 5, 1960, consisting of two pages front and b k; Agreement No. 7840-36, dated March 14, 1960, cénsisting of one page; Agreement ‘No. 7840-35, dated March 1, 1960, consisting of two pages front and back; Agreement No. 7840-34, dated September 3, 1959, consisting of two pages front and back; Agreement No. 7840, dated approved August 29, 1946, as amended to Dereiehed 22, 1958, consisting _ of. two pages front and back; Atlantic Passenger . _ Steamship Conference Agreement, dated February 12, 1946, consisting of sixteen pages front and back; and Annex 1 to Atlantic Passenger Steamship Conference, consisting of four pages front and back. ' 3. Trans-Atlantic Passenger Conference Rules, dated : March 26, 1953, consisting of fifty-one pages. 4. Trans-Atlantic . Passenger Steamship Conferenee Memo to the Lines, dated January 9, 1961, consist- ing of one page, and attaching Sub-Agency Memo No. © 1436, consisting of seven pages. , LOPE TEGO DS NERS APTN PRTG HEY ‘ * ° fC eR MEMES soa - > , 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. é xvia | Docket Before the Commission ‘" Exhibits Letters and conference minutes relating to appoint- ment of sub-agents, consisting of twenty ‘pages. Conference subagency file on Carmen A, Orechio, con- sisting of nineteen pages. Conference. subagency file relating to Gibbs Travel Bureau, consisting: of sixteen pages. Conference subagency file relating to United Travel Agency, -Inc., consisting of ‘twenty-four pages. Conference subagency file relating to Expoftair, Inc., consisting of thirty-three pages, — Document concerning application for subagency by Blue Cars, Inc., consisting of four pages. Conference subagency file relating to Travel & Study, Inc., consisting of twenty-three pages. Conference subagency file relating to Coronet Travel _ Agency, consisting of twenty-six pages. Conference subagency file relating to Roberts Reilly & Sons, consisting of eleven‘pages. . ‘ Conference subagency file relating to- Ambassador Travel Agencies, Inc., consisting of sixteen pages.. Conference subagepcy file relating to Ernst Esch, Ernst Esch Company, consisting of eleven pages. Conference snbagency file relating to Pertess Travel | ' Agency, Inc., consisting of fifteen pages. 17. Conference subagency ‘file relating’ to Stark Trans- port, Inc., consisting of eleven pages. 18. " » area committees on subagency appointments, consist- *. 90, 21, _ 25. 26. re 19. 7 - 1 ne ee o xvilia - Docket Béfore the Commission ‘Exhibits — it relating to deliberations of metropolitan ing of fifty-five pages. Memo to the’ Committee on Control of: Subagencies, - dated May 15, 1961, of the Trans-Atlantic Passenger _ Steamship Conference, consisting of two pages. Trans-Atlantic. Passenger Conference. Confidential Memo to the Passenger Traffie Managers, dated Oc- tober 22, 1958, consisting of one page. Trans-Atlantic Passenger Steamship Conference ~Memo to Special Committee, dated J anuary 19, 1959, consisting of one page. Letter from D. I. Knowles, Secretary, Trans-Atlantic Passenger Steamship Conference, to’Richard M. L. Duffy, Secretary, Atlantic Passenger Steamship Con- - ference, dated February 26, 1959, consisting of two pages, plus enclosure, consisting of fout pages. . Confidential letter from W. H. Roper, Secretary, At- lantic Conference, dated October. 15, 1958, consisting of one page. ae. | oe A group of ‘documents relating to cancellation and reinstatement -of subagency of Japan American Travel Agency, consisting of fifty-five pages. Minutes of Trans-Atlantic Passenger Steamship Con- ference meeting on June 16, 1960, consisting of one page. ‘eget i uy Letter from D. I. Knowles, Secretary, Trans-Atlantic Passenger Steamship Conference, to R. M. L. Duffy, ¢ Seow ae eee a Docket Before the Commission manne fi Secretary, Atlantic biialianiaes: dated February 04, 27. 28. 1959, consisting of one page. Letter from H. G. Craddock, Assistant General Pas- — senger Manager; American Export Lines, Inc., to Don I. Knowles, Secretary, Trans-Atlantic Passenger Steamship. Conference, dated apa 30, 1959, consist- ing of one page. A group of documents relating to deliberations of conferences with respect to the problem: of airline competition, consisting of eighteen pages. A group of Asediaate relating to deliberations of con- _ ferences with respect to the problem of airline com- | 30. 31. 32, '-petition, consisting of fifteen pages. — Trans-Atlantic -Passenger Steamship‘ Cesiebense memo.to the Committee on Control of Sub-agencies, dated January 20, 1959, consisting of one page. Trans-Atlantic Passenger Conference memo to the. Committee on Control of Sub-agencies, dated Sep- tember 13, 1956, plus a group of documents relating to — Popularis Tours, consisting of forty-six pages. Letter to Trans-Atlantic Passenger Steamship Con- ference from Levittown Travel Center, dated April . 27, 1961, consisting of two pages. ‘Application for Sub-Agency, The Cunard Steam-Ship Company Limited, Donaldson Atlantic Line, one page front and back. Application for a eer Greek “Line, one page ‘front and back. 35. 36. 37. 38. 39, 41. — 42, "43, - . ad . § cen ee. eo xixa . Docket Before the Commission _ Echibits 2 American Export Lines, Inc., sie Survey, two pages front and back. Minutes of Meeting of the Atlantic Passenger Steam- ship Conference, dated March 10, 1960, oir: of _ two pages. Trans-Atlantic Palatal Steamship Conference Cir- cular No. 276 to sub-agents entitled, “Sub-Agencies Prohibited from Booking Passengers for Steamship © Lines Not Members of the Conference,” dated May 12, 1961, consisting of one page. : | : Letter from Gabriel Reiner, Cosmos Travel Bureau, _ Ine., to Trans-Atlantic Passenger Steamship Confer- ence, dated May 13, 1961, consisting of one page. American Society of Travel Agents, Inc., Bulletin #164, dated May 2, 1961, consisting of one page. .. Federal Maritime Board, Tabulation of Responses to Questionnaire Regarding Travel pages, consisting of eleven pages. : Rare Letter from Clifford S. Morgan, ae Agency and Sales Department, United States Lines, dated September 30, 1960, consisting of one page. Office Meniorandum of Meeting of Committee on Con- | trol of Sub-Agéncies, dated February 10, 1954, con- sisting of one page. ~ : Trans-Atlantic Passenger Conference file relating to proposed change of ‘ownership of Advisory Travel. Service, Inc., consisting of fifteen pages. ” = searce RR a ee a ak iter Dich aay ph ails . 46. 47. xx a = Docket Before the Commission . Exhibits Trans-Atlantic Passenger Conference file ‘relating to the Long Island Travel Service Corp., ° 52. 53. 89. 56. 57. 59. -Xxia. Docket Before the Commission | I —.. Extracts from masetiige of the Atlantic Conference; consisting of nine pages. Page of a document entitled “Additional iia ay Sea Relations (continued), dated October 9, 1950, consisting of one page. Documents relating to Atlantic Passenger Steamship Conference's. deliberations on the level of agetits’ commisstons, dated January 9, 1951 to-March 5, 1951, consisting of twenty-one pages. - Documents relating -to Atlantic Passenger Steamihip ats Conference’ s deliberations on the level of agents’ cam- missions, dated. March 6-15, 1951, consisting of ten pages. int -Agent’s Commission, dated March 17, 1951; and letter from H. B. Beaumont to Joseph Mayper, Trans- ‘Atlantic Passenger Conference, dated March 17,1951, . consisting of two pages. Documents relating to deliberations of Atlantic Pas- -senger Steamship ‘Conference on the level of agents’ commissions, dated March 3-J une 17, 1951, consist- ing of twenty pages. ‘ Trans-Atlantic Passenger Conférence Draft Rules of Procedure, ‘dated September 17, 1951, consisting of. two pages, and office memorandum dated September 25, 1951, consisting of one page. Documents relating to deliberations of ‘Atlantic Pas- senger Steamship Conference on the level of agents’. . commissions, dated February. 13, 1952, to October 31, , ee, and consisting of aiton pages. 60. 62. 63. ” 65. xii a Docket Before the Commission Exhibits - Documents rditiog to deliberations of Atlantic Pas- senger Steamship Conference on the leyel of - agents’ commissions, dated February 16; 1953, to June 24, | 1953, consisting of fourteen pages. - Letter from K. F. Gautier, Assistant Vice President, United States Lines Company, to Joseph Mayper, Chairman and Secretary, Trans-Atlantic Passenger Conference, dated June 9, 1953 , consisting of one page.. Documents relating to deliberations of Atlantic Pas- senger Steamship Conference on the level of agents’ — commissions, dated August 3, 1953, to. November 2, 1953, consisting of seventeen pages. Office Memorandum, Control Committee dated May 26, 1954, consisting of two pages; handwritten notes dated June 2, 1954, consisting of one page; Minutes of Trans-Atlantic Passénger Conference Meeting 404, datéd June 3, 1954, ~~ of one page; memo “Payment by Airlines ... ” dated June 3, 1954, ,con- sisting of one page; are a letter from.V. Armold to J oseph aie dated July. 2, 1954, consisting of one: . page. Documents relating to deliberations of Atlantic Pas- ‘senger Steamship Conference on commission where part payment collected by different agents, dated June 29, 1954 to May 10, 1955, ———- - twenty- two pages. Documents relating to deliherations of Atlantic Pas- senger Steamship Conference on meeting with Inter- national Consultative Council of Travel Agents, con- sisting of nine pages. 66. - 67. 68. 69. 70. 71. 72, 73. 75. eee a Docket Before’ the Commission Echibits Documents relating to i lideuisien of Atlantic Pas- senger Steamship Conference on the level of agents’ commissions, dated January 26, 1956, to December 6, 1956, consisting of. twenty-seven pages. Correspondence relating to meeting between Atlantic Conference Committee and International Consultative Council of Travel Agents in Paris on September 20, 1957, consisting of sixteen pages. Documents relating. to deliberations of Atlantic Pas- senger Steamship Conference on the level of agents’ commissions, dated. February 22, 1958, to November 7, 1958, consisting of nine pages. File relating to proposed . change of owilerahip of Allied Travel ren, Ine. —e of twenty-three pages. File relating to change of ownership of Atlas Travel Bureau, consisting of twenty-seven pages. File relating to cancellation of subagency_ of R. F. Barr, consisting of ten pages: File relating to change of ownership of Bankers Travel Service, consisting of twenty-three pages. File relating to cancellation of’ subagency Bartlett . Tours Company, consisting of twenty-three pages. 74, File relating ta cancellation of subagency Belair Tours, Ine. , consisting of eight pages. File relating to change of ownership of Biltmore Travel Agency, a of eight pages. 87. XxXiva | Docket Before the Commission 7 Exhibits File relating to change of ownership of Central SS & . Exchange Agency, consisting of forty-four pages. . File rélating to cancellation of subagency of Walter C, Fell, _ consisting of eight pages. File relating to change of ownership of Harney Travel Bureau, consisting of twelve pages. File relating to change of ownership of Knickerbocker Travel Service, consisting of seven pages. File. relating to Marin Travel Service, consisting of twelve pages. . File relating to.fine levied. against Morrison Travel Bureau, Inc., consisting of five pages. . File relating to cancellation of subagency of W. G. and Dorothy K. Shaw, consisting of two pages. File relating to transfer of subagency Troy’ s or Agency, Ine. , consisting of seven pages. — Document dated December 21; 1953, of the i Atlantic Passenger Conference relating to’ Hershy Travel Agency, consisting of five pages. Letter from Joseph Mayper to W.°H. Roper, dated | July 16, 1953, consisting of two pages. Trans-Atlantic Passenger Conference memo to ‘the ‘Passenger Traffic Managers, dated December 4, 1953, consisting of five pages, and Supplementary Agenda, dated December 7, 1953, consisting of three pages. . Office Memorandum, Control Committee, dated Janu- ary 9, 1952, consisting of two pages, xxva Docket Before the Commission Exhibits 88. Letter from Joseph Mayper to Wm. Franklin Crum, dated August 22, 1949, consisting of one page; letter from -Wm. Franklin Crum to Joseph Mayper, dated August 17, 1949, consisting of one page. 89. Memo re Committee : ‘on Control of Sub-Agencies, - dated June 9, 1954, consisting of one pagé. 90. Deposition of Joseph A. Hollander, taken at 45 Brosd- - way, New York, New York, on Apr 20, — consist- eo. ing of 157 pages. 91. Letter from Carel Stahl to D. I. Knowles, dated we! 17, 1961, consisting of one page. 92. Letier from Frank J. Réiser to Donald I. Knowles, dated May 18, 1961, consisting of one page. 93. Letter from N. H. Hacohen to D. I. Knowles, Gated | May 19, 1961, consisting of one page. ~~ 94, Letter from T. K. Hebert to D. I. Knowles, dated _ May 23, 1961, consisting of one page. 95. Letter from J. P. Muldoon to Donald I. Knowles, dated May 24, 1961, consisting of one page. - 96. Responses of Respondent Lines to Motions of Ameri- — can Society of Travel Agents and Public Counsel for: Depositions, etc., dated April 3, 1961, consisting of eighty-five pages. ‘97. Supplemental Responses on Behalf of Certain Re- _. pondent Lines to.Motions of American Society of i Travel Agents and Public Counsel for Depositions, _- etc., dated — 24, 1961, consisting of eight pages. - seetreemnres per eremegenrs a at a, oe rere —— — ee EO et Tee ee ee = : . prs = SPR is: . . . 98. 99. 100. 101. 102. 104. 105. XXxvVi a& Docket Before the Commission | Exhibits Trans-Atlantic Passenger Steamship Voyages sold in the United States (1)-1955-1960 incl., consisting of one page. _ ‘ Confidential letter from F. E. . Mead to The Secretary, Atlantic Conference, dated Detember 9, 1953, consist- ing of one page. Atlantic Passenger Steamship Conference, Paris’ Agency Control, dated April 27, 1959, consisting of one page; Sub-Committee Meeting, Cannes, dated January 27, 1961, consisting of one page; Memoran- dum to the Lines, dated February 14, 1961, consist- — ing of two-pages; Minutes of Sub-Committee Meet- ings held February 20, March 7 and March 8, 1961, consisting of eleven pages; Minutes of Meeting of the - Atlantic Passenger Steamship Conference on March 9/10, 1961, consisting of six pages. | Trans-Atlantic Passenger Steamship Bookings, Re- lationship of Total Bookings to Bookings through Subagents, 1955 to 1960, consisting of one page. Trend.of Bookings by Class, = consisting of ‘one page. “103. American Society of Travel Agents, Comparison af Time Spent to Income Earned, consisting of one page. American Society of Travel Agents, Comparison of Earnings per Unit of Time Spent, consisting of one - Ratio of IATA & TAPC to Total Commissions, 1955- 1959, consisting of one page. xxvii a Docket Before the Commission Exhibits 106. American Society of Travel Agents, Transatlantic Steamship Share of Gross Bookings- vs. Share of Gross Commissions, 1955-1959, consisting of one page. 107. American Society of Travel Agents Tours 1955-1959, : _ Share of Gross Bookings vs. Share of Gross Commis- sions, 1955-1959, consisting: of one page. 108. American Society of Travel Agents, Cruises 1955- * 1959, Share of Gross Bookings vs. Share of Gross Commissions, consisting of one page. - 109. Definition of Metropolitan Territories, consisting of - three pages. 110. File relating to Hettel Travel Service, consisting of ‘twenty pages. 111. Trans-Atlantic Passenger Steamship Conference, _ “Summer Season Periods for 1961, dated a ee 7 1960, consisting of seven pages. 112. Form letter of acknowledgment to an applicant for appointment as a sub-agent together with memoran- dum dated April 18, 1961, consisting of two pages. 113. Sub-Agency Appointment Agreement, consisting of ' four pages front and back. 114. TAPSC Sub-Agents in Metropolitan Territories Have - Increased by 36% since 1950, consisting of one page. 115. Sub-Agents on Eligible Lists in All Metropolitan Ter- .ritories, consisting of one page. ‘116. In Metropolitan Territories Total Requests Approved : ‘for/Changes in Owner ship/Officers, Tradename or agen of Sub-Agents, consisting of one page. . i = - _ mee = OR eS RE a TTT A SE ee re ERE OT TE ale 2a ~4 44 a Docket Before the Commission ~ Exhibits 117. ‘Assessment of. Liquidated Damages Against Sub- Agents. in United States and Canada, consisting of one page. ; : 118.- File relating to hk Mr. Foster Travel Service, Inc. te ‘ consisting of eleven pages. 119. North Atlantic Steam ‘Traffic Gaatarvnceitineni of Rules and Regulations, etc., consisting of two pages. 120. Atlantic Conference memoranda relating to. Agency Commission, dated September 4, September 3, and October 15, 1958, consisting of three pages. 121. Hemphill Travel Service Inc., Revised Analysis of : Steamship Department Losses in Last Ten Years, dated May 22, 1961, consisting of one page. 122. Letter from Price Waterhouse & Cd. to American ‘Society of Travel Agents, Inc., dated January 14, 1957, consisting of five pages, hi exhibits consisting of fourteen pages. 123; Chart relating to five categories - agents and ex- hibits, consisting of ten pages. 124, Statistical Data on Participation of Active‘Members in the Study, Classified by Category of Volume of Business, and by Geographical Areas, ete. , consisting of eight pages. an 125. Statistical ‘Data on Participation of Active Me | ‘ in the Study, Classified by Category of Vol _ | Business, and by Geographical Areas, etc.; / consisting. of five pages. a, | | / é ME NAG. bo ade Ae ' xxixa i Docket Before the Commission Exhibits 126. Correspondence between Trans-Atlantic Passenger Conference relating to prohibition of sub-agencies from booking passengers on nonconference lines, con- sisting of nine pages. 127. Letter from A. M. Piscatella, Director of Trade Re- ‘ "lations, American Society of Travel Agents, Inc., to Board of” Directors; dated December, 3988, consist- ing of one page, - 128, Letter from Edward Aplaker: Assistant ica , ; Counsel, Division of Regulations, Federal Maritime _ Board, dated March 30, 1961, consisting of one page, enclosing questionnaire, consisting” of three pages. 129. Advisory Travel Service, Inc., Information Not In- _ eluded in Exhibit 43, coniidtion of one page. 130. Allied Travel Service, Inc., Information not — | in Exhibit 69, consisting of one page. 131. Belair Tours, Inc., Information not Included in Ex- : . hibit 74, consisting of two pages: : 132. Atlas Travel Bureau, Information not Included in Ex- hibit No. 70, consisting of one page. 133. Knickerbocker Travel Service, Inc., Tnfthrmetion not Included in Exhibit 79, consisting of one page. = 134. United Travel Agency, Inc., Information not Included in Exhibit 8, consisting of one page. 135. Letter from W. F. McGrath, Executive Vice Presi- ° | ; dent, American Society of Travel Agents, Inc., to Active, Active Associate, N-: RA. and N RA Silbeiads . . 4 > . . i, = ’ r c 7 - — ee — 4 SE y 2% Pan pe ANP eer ~ LP OEY LITE POLO, PAOLO IOLA RLS PEALE HELIN: . : Pe SOT OF oO MRA NAS) Oo ecaelere ne Sale . 136. - 187. 138. . 1389. 140. 141. seeeehad Docket Bufove the Commission Exhibits Members of ASTA, dated May 23, 1956, sscaiaitiait of three pages. ths \ Cancellation by Joint Action, dated January 12, 1959, consisting of two pages. \ . Inadequate Number of Passengers ‘Booked’ in Metro-. politan Eligible List Territories, consisting of one Trans-Atlantic Passenger Steamship Conference, ~ Total Passenger Carryings—Eastbound from the United States, consisting of one page; Trans-Atlantic _ Passenger Steamship Conference, Total Passenger Carryings—Westbound to the United States, consist- ing of one page. Deliberations of Trans-Atlantic Medecine Conference relating to control over —e consisting of eighteen pages. Trans-Atlantic Passenger Steamship Cosiiereine ‘memo tothe Standing Committee on Control of Sub- © Agencies, dated March 9, 1961, _ consisting of two pages. «| Letter from D. I. Ridin to Blue ies: aay dated April 7, 1961, consisting of one page; and letter from Gabriel Villa to D. I. Knowles, dated March 24, 1961, consisting of one page. ~- 3 Commnission Order of Investigation At a Session of the Fapenat, Mansones Boarp held “at its Office in Washington, D. C. this 2nd ws of November ie. ; Docker No. 873 INVESTIGATION OF PassENGER STEAMSHIP Conrzrences Recarpinc TraveL AGENTS Wueneas,. The American Society of Travel Agents has petitioned the Board to institute a proceeding to investigate the relations between travel agents and the Trans-Atlantic Passenger Steamship Conference (Agreement No. 120) and: - the Atlantic Passenger Steamship Conference (Agreement | No. 7840); and ee a ad WuHereas, Questions have beef raised regarding the pro- ‘priety of the activities of said Conferences insofar ‘as they * relate to travel agents; and WHEREAS, It appears to be in the public interest: to sei | to all interested persons an Kaew A to be heard in this regard; Now THEREFORE, IT IS ORDERED that an investigation is hereby instituted to deternfine whether aforementioned * Agreements. 120 and 7840 should be disapproved, cancelled, or modified, insofar as they relate to travel agents, in ac- cordance with Section 15 of the Shipping Act, 1916 (46 Bae 814); and It 1s FURTHER ORDERED, That all parties to Agreements 120 and 7840 are hereby made respondents herein; and x ms __ Sone deaas a Y \ aie 3 Commission Order of Investigation . Ir 18 FURTHER ORDERED, That a copy of this order be published in the Federal Register with invitation toallin- © terested persons to intervene and. participate herein, and a copy served on each of the respondents herein; and ' Ir ts FURTHER ORDERED, That this proceeding be set for e hearing before an Examiner from the. Hearing Examiners’ Office at a time and place to be announced. a a By the Board. - (Bea) Ja ames L. Pimper ie Secretary 3 (Szau] ied USCOMM-MA-DC - (Prehear. Conf. 63) 3a | aw +, ae | Excerpt From Commission Prehearing Conference . Mr. Rowe: May I jest ask a question on that? Will that require the production or the answering of ' the names of the individual lines, or will it be suffi- cient if we say the vote was 10 to'2 or -something like that? Do we have to furnish to ASTA the names of the particular lines that were involved? . Examiner Roth: The names of the particular lines that are involved are named as respondents in this _ proceeding.’ | _ -Mr..Rowe: Yes. - . Examiner Roth: What are you concerned about? Mr. Rowe: I am asking whether we have to dis close ‘to ASTA, assuming this information is avail- able—I don’t know whether it is—whether we have to disclose to ASTA the names of the lines that voted against the commissions and the names of the lines - that voted in favor of the commissions. ° This — bea competitive matter. » Examiner Roth: I am sure that it could be, but I _ don’t see how we can get the information—and I. deem it: relevant—without making the disclosure. I _ contemplate that each of. the lines will search its - files with regard to each of these meetings and fur- nish.a statement, with. accompanying documents if there are any in their files, showing what action was _ taken with regard to each of the questions: involved in these meetings. Otherwise we are operating in the dark. We have to determine whether or not the particular rules under investigation here operate to +Q | (Prehear. Conf. 64) 4a | Excerpt From Commission Prehearing Conference 7 ety 64 the détriment of the commerce of the United States or are otherwise in violation of the Shipping. Act, and the‘ only way we can do it is to find out pre- — cisely what happened. I am not too much concerned about any claims of eoqiqentiomty, to be very frank with you. Mr. Rowe: Mr. Examiner, does: this ¢ cover docu- . ments only in the United States? Examiner Roth: I would not confine it to deen- | ments within the United States if that will be an excuse for failing to disclose the position taken. Mr. Rowe: Well, to the extent that it does cover, - documents outside the United States, we of course - would have to preserve the rights of the lines which have been asserted in other proceedings that they are not required to produce documents outside the United States. Examiner Roth: If they don’t prodose them they lay themselves open to unfavorable inferences then. _I will have to take that position. Mr. Rowe: You understand that the lines will have to take that position, whether they want to in this case or not, because they have in other proceed- ings. So I don’t think there should be any unfavor- - able inference on that. They have asserted that posi- tion in other proceedings, and in some cases they have been directed by the governments not to pro- | duce documents abroad. Naturally they will have to take the same position here. : EIEN RE I NMR yy Ty AM NOEL TRIN ie SO ie | wuleaeerenn Papas LP TIS CR AS CEILS Pt tn Di 5a Excerpts From Testimony | i. . * * e * [Mr. Blackwell, Hearing Counsel] At pages 4 and 5 of the first prehearing conference in this matter, Public Counsel then advised ‘the parties that + the Board’s investigation constituted a general inquiry into ‘. every facet of the relationship between travel agents and the two subconferences or the member lines of those con- ferences and that it was Public Counsel’s intention to con- duct a pervasive examination of every aspect of that re- lationship which directly or indirectly flows from the ap- . proval of these agreements by the Federal Maritime Board. * * * e * ; * * . . . Donatp I. Knowters—TAPSC Secretary—Direct By Mr. Blackwell: Q. Mr. Mayper left the Conference on February 1, 1959, and the Board investigation in this case was instituted on November 2, 1959. Have there been any changes of sub- stance in Agreement 120 since that date, Mr. Knowles? | A. There have been no changes’in the agreement—yes; there has been one, I believe, in connection with the with- drawal of a member line. I think the text of that par- ticular clause in the agreement was revised. And it was filed and approved by the Maritime Board. There may have been others, I don’t recall offhand. I would have to check the actual dates we filed them. _Q. How about changes in: the rules themselves? A.- . Well, we are changing rules right along. I think we have made several changes in the rules since that time.. So ee (Tr. 48-49) 6a Donald. I. Knowles—TAPSC Sec’y—Direct Q. Could you enumerate them, please? A. Not offhand. I could name two we have changed. We changed, or we in- _ cluded a rule which provides for the payment of retroactive commission to applicants subsequent to, their appointment. We have'also abolished a rule which prohibited to a great extent the furnishing of literature to applicants for sub- _ —49—_ agencies. I think it was an F rule. aa Examiner Roth: . Would you relate that to exhibits, and will you clarify —— what -Tules you are _.. talking about? + * Mr. Blackwell: That i is just what I intended to do,- | Mr. Examiner. Where could we find these documents if we can find it at all? The Witness: In the agreement and the rules that is printed. , we By Mr. Blackwell: Q. I show you Exhibits 1, 2, and 3. Can we find in either Exhibits 1, 2, and 3 marked for identification the rule relat- _ ing to retroactive commissions? A. Exhibit 3, I think we - have it there. Q. Or 4? ‘A. There has been a change i in that one, too; _a slight change recently. D-9 has been revised since Feb- ruary 1, 1959. That’s in Exhibit 3. | Q. And that’s page designated D8-91 A. It is actually D-9. There are two rules on the page. Q. Of Exhibit 3 marked for. identification? A. That's correct. D-9 has been revised. (Tr. 49-51). * Ta Donald I. Knowles—TAPSC Sec’y—Direct Q. Prior to that revision, there was no allowance for retroactive commissions? A. N 0, not what you call retro- active commissions. _ it. ’ a we Q. Let’s get this point cleared up, Mr. Knowles. When the conference uses the term “retroactive commissions,” to what relationship do they attach? In other words, when would retroactive commissions be payable now when they were not payable prior to the. promulgation of this rule? _ A. Well, prior to the rule, an agent was required to hold the contract or the appointment agreement of-the line at which time he could receive commissions on business he did for the line or on business that sailed subsequent to his ap- pointment. Under the present rule, if an applicant in the metropolitan territory files an application through the Con- ference, we note that date of application. He subsequently - _ is appointed within six months. When he is placed on the eligible list, that is, and then appointed by any one line, that line may then pay him the retroactive commissions | from the date of his application to become a member. -, There is a maximum time period of one year. - : Q. So, prior to the promulgation of this rule Or, as you describe it, the revision of this rule, an agent who sold transportation on Conference lines prior to appointment could not under any circumstances receive commission, is - that correct? A. Prior to the date of his appointment, that is correct, . o Q. Now, since the revision, under some circumstances, he | . | | ° a eae ets eR ru - ‘ te ee . eres ‘ ° ee (Tr, 822-24) "Donald I. Knowles—TAPSC Sec’y—Redirect - Q Yo, How is, the public protected by: the invocation 3 —393— of this rule and what do you mean by the public? A. I mean ‘the traveling public i in connection with what we have: discussed. Now, with respect to what you bring up now, ‘if a vessel, an actual operating .vessel,- is brought into the trade and is going to make a couple of voyages. and then go out of the trade and while in they’d want to use all our facilities and our agents, I suppose you could indicate that the rule would protect our lines from that ‘so-called com- _ petitive voyage.. Q. Getting back to the so-called seattle of the pub- lic, is that the protection of individual passengers that ? you’re concerned about? A. In the instance of the so-called y Canadian company I think it would be, yes, sir. — Q. How about the instance of an operator in aes A. That could protect the public too, Mr. Blackwell. I think we had a case, Mr. Mayper can probably tell you. more about it, some years ago of a ship coming into the port and soliciting bookings, collected about $600,000, went: bankrupt, and the. public suffered. As a matter of fact, I think he can tell you more sioet | it than I could. ' Q. Do you view the authority that the Federal Maritime ’ Board has given you pursuant to Section 15 to enter this conference —— as an authority to protect the ; =i0é... public interest? That i is, the passengers traveling on ships? A. I don’t think it gives us that authority, no, sir. | ‘Q. All right. Now, let’s seas’ Does it protect the agent? And if so, how does it protect the agent? A. Well, again, in the present instance are you talking about the Canadian. company, prospective company? ce | x es — a fl a Ps (Re, 886-95). 12a ~ Donald I. Knowles—TAPSC Sec ’y—Redirect e Q. I’m talking about a non-conference line that theoreti- : cally would be in eompetition, if we can use that term. A. . Oh, a line in competition, I don’t think it would necessarily protect the agent except in the case ‘that Ihave. just cited. Q.-It wouldn’t necessarily . ‘protect the agent? A. “Wouldn't necessarily protect the agent. Q. As a matter of fact, isn’t it possible the agency would be stronger. by being’ able to get commissions from non- © conference carriers? A. Well, at the moment I don’t think ° so, no, sir. There ig not any “such thing except an occa- sional ship .coming in for some: cream. -Q. How are the lines protected? A. Well, the lines are protected in the matter of an agent who would represent -by-night steamship ek coming in on a quick operation. ell, I can cite you an example of the Arosa tins which eonference member. a | hott he cia * —_—$95— Q. That was a conference member?’ A. And the agents was I believe suffered considerable financial loss in connection ~ with that line. I think that could be a worse situation where a line came. in and did the same sort of thing. It has hap- pened. Q. In the case of the Arosa: Line’ that you mentioned, the fact that they were conference members didn’t particu- larly protect anybody, did it? A. We were obligated to accept them as conference members on the agreement. .Q. But the fact was they were conference members and . no one was protected? Is that correct? A. eee got stuck, Q. And that does oteur in’ business, does it not, Mr. Knowles?” A. Including the conference. Yes, I guess so. . ; 4 +7 (Tr. 325-27) 13a . Donald I. Knowles—TAPSC Sec’y—Redirect : er Q. Do you have any idea of the degree of participation ~ that the trans-Atlantic conference carriers have in the car-. riage of passengers aeross the ‘Atlantic compared to any other surface transportation? That is; water? .A. Well, by degree ‘of participation you mean how many other lines might be involved? | isc, : : Q. Would I be very wrong if I said that approximately | 99 per cent of the carryings by water across the Atlantic | "BQ are carried by member lines of the trans-Atlantic passen- ger conference? A. That might be a pretty good estimate, yes, sir. | , : Q. It wouldn’t be very far off? A. No, the freight carry- ings— They’re very, very minimum. | . Q. In fact, it eduld be higher than 99 per cent? (A. Well, that’s—I’d take that I guess. “ —327— - . + . « . Q. Now, from your general experience in ocean trans- portation and particularly in regard to your travel duties with the Trans-Atlantic: Passenger Conference, is it fair to say too that the travel agents as distinguished from the lines’ own offices book the predominant or overwhelming amount of passenger carryings? A. It is fair to say that, yes, sir. ‘ oe ‘¢, 9. Do you know whether it’s the consensus in the ship- ping industry that the travel agents do perform a fairly efficient, economical job of selling transportation for ocean carriers? A. Oh, I think that would be the consensus, yes. _ Q. Is there any reason that you know of that the same would not be applicable to travel agents performing: duties for non-conference carriers? In other words, that non- " — oye LL LLL LLL ODL I el — . PAL PN EABLIOET, BOLT RR TE IT AR NE Nr 0 ? = % aa c (Tr. 327-29) La co Donald I. Knowles—TAPSC Sec’y—Redirect. conference carriers too, mare they not, have to depend for bookings toa — we on travel agents to remain in a . . —_. = ay ah business successfully ?. A. I would assume that they would. — Now, you mentioned in the question that Mr. McManus to you that one of the reasons you thought the rule was. reasonable was that if a non-conference line utilized the - conference travel agents it’s only reasonable to assume and fair to expect that they would conform to the practices and - established procedures that the conference has laid down? . A. That’s correct: Q. Is that a correct framing? A, That's correct. Q. So would I be correct:in stating that as far as the ; non-conference rule is conéerned it is an indirect device to get potential competitors to join the conference? : A. I’d go further than that, Mr. Blackwell. I think it’s an attempt to get the lines that would enter the trades to quote.compati- ble rates, for example. If a line comes in and starts cutting a rates, it would be harmful to the trade generally. - Q. In other words, you would: want them to follow the practices, procedures, rates and other matters appertain- ing. to passenger travel that~the conference lines have agreed upon? A. Yes, sir. .Q. And ™ would: want them to do that? A. Yes, sir. —-$99— Q. And the rule is bolo for that purpose,.is it not? _ A. It may have been. ° I don’t know. . It was designed a . long time. ago before I was in the conference. Q. Would you disagree that it has that effect? A. I just don’t know. * e a © - i “ . MRD aa Mi a ai i fic isetparcltecal orange 4 5 : . - / “ . . A ~ . & . \ : . VA - a! - ¥ . 5 —> “~ . > . ° . POD ac RE Ct EEE gE VEIT ESN Y EN TTY (oe Silat ict cease ick are eg aire mates ogy LLL LIES OLIN . : . ° ° c ; . ages Pc ta (Tr. 346, 353-54, 570) 5 Ae amas Cane ae 15a ene Donald I. Knowles—TAPSC Sec’y—Recross si e _. + Manuel-J. Gibbs—Travel Agent—Direct. | : “72 * * #* .@ . . Q. So to that extent that line is protected, is it not? ‘If,they see something in an agent’s character or his ability to do business he does not -have to do business with him, does he? A. Oh, the actual appointments are for each line certainly. Any line can-refuse to appoint.. Beara} Q. So regardless of what the conference does, if it ap- proves an agent for the eligible list,.it is not mandatory for any member line to appoint that agent? Is that cor- rect? A. That’s correct. yar . * ‘-# » *s . Donato I. Knowies— Recross 7 ’ " : * Ld a . * . By Mr. Sisk, ASTA Counsel: _Q. Mr. Knowles, just so the record will be straight, ther arecfreighter lines which carry, passengers across the A lantic today in operation,-are there not? A. ‘Yes, sir.” a te 2 Ss * * * Pics | —354—.\ ; * * + e. s \ ” Q. You indicated in answer to a question earlier today~ that Caribbean cruises are not included within the scope of the TAPSC agreement. Is that correct? A. That’s correct. ° . a * e * | e | : Ky a . Manvex J. Grsss—Direct : ji" ‘ * * . * - By Mr. Blackwell: : . - Q. Now, if you look at the third paragraph and the last : three lines, you state that: “... but in all ‘fairness:to our travel agency wé must of -neéessity to survive, push air ‘ . - ° nar ‘ ne OT Re oe Bastrmomnergmamen ye ennee Sect m a ee ey as | (Tr. 570-71) 16a . _+ Manuel J. Gibbs—Travel Agent—Direct transportation for which we are duly accredited ‘and re- ° - ceive proper commission.” What did you mean by that statement? A. Well, that’s common sense‘in any business. If we are an accredited agent in any line ‘of endeavor, be it travel or selling pencils, if we receive a commission for the work we’re doing and I have a salary to pay for: ‘people, we'll naturally use our endeavor in order to receive a com- mission and pay our rent ms be able to pay our employees. f —571— We couldn’t afford to take care of ship transportation com- plete line if we weren’t getting paid for it. Q. You're in business to make money, are you not? a We hope to. Q. How would one push air transportation, Mr. Gibbs, as contrasted to pushing sea transportation? A. It’s sales-. manship which would be similar. to salesmanship in any other line of endeavor. It’s a known fact that in the clothing ~ business, for instance, if something is advertised the sales- - man will try to push a better suit of clothes, or whatever it happens tobe. The personnel, my associate and the girls in the office, __ wherever possible on international bookings, we would point out the speed and facility: by the use of air and we: to switch them over to air when we could. Q. Is there a pool of travelers that can be switched, and if so under what circumstances? A. Well, we’re a small agency so that my experience here would be limited. How-_ ever, to the extent of our experience I would say that there | are always a small segment of travelers who come in without having a preconceived notion of their means of ‘travel who with proper swaying can be switched. And some people, ‘of course, where they have a limited _ - amount of time, as a good travel agent you’re in a position . sa ORE la PEE ate we cha bi Aa airietid oleh a aOR ibi dado mngalcw boeveae IS pee Se EH} PANS TPM Be es ae & | 17a : & ee Manuel J. Gibbs—Travel Agent—Direct eae | 572 | it to point. out to them that the time saved with air travel will round out their itinerary to the extent so‘that they can ‘further the trip that they’re trying to make. 'Q. So that with a persuasive and an effective solicitation . ‘some amount of passengers could either be diverted from: ' air to sea or some péople who had not made up their minds could be persuaded to go by seat A. To a limited extent. Q. To an extent? A. Yes. _. Q. You consider that lack of commissions was. ‘a handieap a ' for you as a non-appointed agent? Is that correct? A. Well, it would necessarily have to be. Q. Did you have any other handicaps as a ounpaneiities agent? A. We had a certain amount of difficulty with lit- erature. As was pointed out to us by the lines,-they could \ only forward: most of the literature and schedules and sail- . ing information to regularly appointed" agents. They . pointed out to us that there is a tremendous cost in keeping sub-agents on the books and that it was impossible for them pe — us on an active list until we were duly accredited. ‘ 2 —d73— 4. Q. As a non-appointed agent located generally in the. ; suburbs of the New York metropolitan area; did this cause ° you any handicap? A. It would to the extent that people : could go to the line directly. We were fairly glose in Jersey; ' : —. or they could go to one of the surrounding communities. / *+ We do have agents within 6 or 7 miles who are appointed and who would have the right of writing tickets. So, cer- - tainly, without accreditation, you can’t possibly have the ' standing of someone who i 1s, 1 in any line of business, not uta in‘travel. Q. Does your agency : now hold. tickets? A. ‘Yes, to cer- i _ tain of the lines. _ Q. When you sold tickets for certain-of the lines that you now hold tickets for before your appointment, did this re- . a: OTE Es al AP NLS AN: ate “ (Tr. 573-74, 595-96) 18a ; | . Manuel J. Gibbs—Travel ‘Agent—Cross Ly quire either you or some employee of your agency. to make © a trip to New York to pick the tickets up? A.:If it was short-term, we would have to go in.- If it wasn’t, we would _write and forward. our check and receive.the tickets-and try to handle it in the same way as if we were properly accred- . ited. It wasn’t something you would tell your passenger if ._ you wanted to keep him. : Q. This was not a problem that’ you have now, is that cor--~ Oe a eee | A —574— . Q. ea did the fact that you had occasionally either to make a personal visit to New York or write for tickets entail some additional expense? A. N ecessarily additional phone _ calls, actual trips into the city, forwarding money. It does take time and effort. ear —— Q. Now, do you know approximately -your gross TAP gales for the year prior to your appointment? A. Not off hand. I don’t know whether it is in the file here. - Q. Did you make a comparison between your sales the - year before your appointment and the results. immediately . _ thereatftert A. ce 4 have eeeey Nici _ angi. J. Grsss—Cross — : rs zB pee ks. —595— - : : s sadl e : ® * By Mr. Neaher, Counsel for Petitioners: - Q. Now, since your appointment would you say that this prior practice or area—I won’t call it a practice—of per- ‘suading passengers one way or another has changed to any “4 extent? Now that you do get a commission on trans-Atlantic ; bookings, has it. changed? A. Yes, in that we now do actual counseling. In other words, the situation of the — . passenger is definitely and completely foremost. . ~~ Q. ‘Well, when you say you now do actual counseling, do LOOM RI LANE RET ELI ELT TE SI AOE SLATS II IS EO er a PPP ER eT Ee Me See ee ¢ * Lpaialinaintlisa eas cide Negi Be SA te de | (Tr. 596, 607-08, 610) 19a tox Manuel J, Gibbs—Travel Agent—Recross . you mean that you are becoming a more professional travel - agent? A. With more tools to offer. Q. Better informed about the advantages of shianbig | travel? A. That would be true. And also with experience | we are better informed generally. Q. But does tle commission incentive play any large part in this. change?’ A. It helps. Q. Well, it helps. I think I’d agree. A. It becomes on an even par with our other forms of transportation. And then we do our best to satisfy the traveler’s needs, be it ship, . be it air, or whatever other form it may take... ; -* a2 e = . __Maxvex J. Gisss—Reeross 2 s & * * es By Mr. Sisk: Q. Has it Sie! your experience dint an employee needs. more experience to handle sea bookings hana air rn A. Yes. Q: Now, you’ve been a TAPSC-approved sana for just. a little bit more than one year. . Is that correct? A. That’s —60s— Q. During that past y year have you found that, space has been readily available on-the trans-Atlantic steamship. lines? ~*' A. Well, it’s. a question of the meaning of “readily avail- able.” I don’t think space is readily available at any time _ except completely off-season. ” . Q. Now, does the obtaining of space take a great deal of time? A. Well, it entails the necessity of making a written 22 ‘S\ —$10— Manuel J, Gibbs—Travel Agent—Recross application and either asking, for a general guarantee within. the particular type of service you want or asking for a specific location and then reanswering to that if it’s avail- able so that it would take more time than just making a —611— iiast phone call for trip ihre ‘sorry; for air space. _ Q. And when the customer has asked you far one kind of — ' space and you find that kind of space is not. available, do iN -you then have to sit down with the customer or the client ‘and discuss the other kinds of space which are available? . A. Definitely. I mean if he wants tourist and there is only | _ first class available, you can’t spend his money maa his permission. . -Q. Do you find the same problem arises with respect to booking international air flights? A. Oh, I would say it’s . definitely simpler. You have two kinds of space available. There either is space or there isn’t space. __ Q. Do you consider in your business, Mr. canines that time is money? A. Very definitely. ~ Q. Did you have that in mind when you stated, as you did earlier in an answer given to Mr. Neaher, that booking of ‘trans-Atlantic’ ‘steamship space was now on-an even par » with booking of other space? A. That would be one of the things I had in mind, yes. x, —Q. You did have that in mind? A. Yes, ¥- . Q Well, does it take longer to book a'‘ trans-Atlantic | —612— steamship passage than it does. to book a trans-Atiantic air passage? A. Yes, because normally we can | book trans- - @{tlantic air by a simple phone call. Q. So that it really isn’t.on an even par with booking i in- ternational air, is it? A. You mean with the amount of time that we have to spend i in the office? Ler ee s OTE er en tent Dre See sats _ cation rather than just a phone call.’ i. : PA e (Tr. 612; e25-26) Gabriel Villa—Wholesale Travel. Agent—Direct Q. Y A. It would take more time for the ship, in that normally the procedure would be that we would have to follow it, up either with a deposit form or a letter of appli. 7.) Q. So that it really isn’t on an even par with interna- | tional air? A. Timewise it would take more time. . Q. With respect to-steamship lines for which you do not hold ticket stock, who does the actual making out of the “- tickets? A. The line.. -Q. That saves you a little time, doesn't it? A. Yes. a Saar a ee ii, oo) Seve : Ps ae | . . —§25— » GasrieL Vitta—Direct sn fat : . e ° e ~ By Mr. Blackwell: Q. And inthe middle of the last paragraph, when you say, “In ny fon as approved sales agent for IATA we have: done a great deal to promote sales; it has been of benefit to us to promote air sales because we have always been as- sured of our commission,”— A. Right. ~~ : “8, Q. —what did you mean by that? A. Well, being an IAT A-appointed agency and receiving a commission, of course, we try to push our clientele e airlines, : Q. Because you receive no commission? _A. No, because -we do receive commission. —626— > I fee. A. ‘Well, I mean “it’s not the ae reason. Also ‘isdiiib we can get the space. It’s just there are two im- . portant factors. .One, we can get the space. And second, . _ We can get the commission. “And I eas these two factors actually go side by: side. | customers didn’t know we had—and of course we did not — s ,. ~ (Tr. 715-16, 745) 22a. 3 ne ae ohy Stark Gotig~Bieual Agent—Direct | Emanuel E. Erber—Travel | Agent—Direct- peal ° 7 1 5 . Jo OHN r Stark Gorpy—Direct ‘ By Mr. Blackwell: Q. Did the Stark Agency consummate any “naterial amount: of bookings by water transport to i A. I would say not at that particular time. : ‘e ‘Q. Why. not? A. In the first. ‘place we -were not *p- pointed. | Q. Well, how did that inhibit you from atte bookings, _ +8 . —716— sir? A. Well, wickility the principal reason was that our have—steamship appointments. Q. Did lack of commissions play a part in this? A. N atu- rally. 2 bh : transportation? A. I don’t know of any others. Q. Now, at what point between January 25, 1957 and your ultimate appointment or your ultimately being placed on the eligible list of the Trans-Atlantic Passenger Confer- ence did the Stark Agency begin selling a material amount of ocean transportation? A. I would.say in 1959. Q. And. what caused you to change your policy in that regard a ‘and: ‘why did you begin selling ocean transportation in that year? A. Well, in order to get the business and the ee een : * ° > a —145— EMANUEL E. Exser-—Direct ged A. Before. we become members of the conference, ifatravel - agent—-and I presume most travel agents did as I did—had a client came up and said, “We’d like to ‘go by ship to Q. What other factors ala ted you from jeittien' ocean -. . — Sie a" er Fe Oe eT ee eee ee ee Te ere ye ‘we dn heh LAER td a So WARK RUENY ns NE - : @ Datta blir ns eevee fe aie 74h, 140-80) Sesion E. Erber—Pravel Agenit—Dirgct mS | : Barope,” -we were interested in making a living and so we _. talked these people out of going by ship or we tried to ' ‘talk these people out of going by ship and we. sent them over by air because it meant money to us. . ’ Naturally,.when we became members of the steamship conferenck, we. didn’t exert that type of pressure on our . clients any more because we were making our commission both from the steamship and from the a air. i A. Well, this j is the discussion that we had just a shsctalieli ago, sir, that where we had people who came to us and decided that they wanted to-go to Europe, invariably we ~ tried to tell them to go by air, because we knew it was com-" | ; missionable, whereby if they went by ship it was not commis- . sionable. © ; er Q. Regardless of the time period involved § in this produe- tion of $101;000 worth of business for the airlines, is it possible for you to estimate, Mr. Erber, how much of this business could have been diverted to sea carriage if you had been appointed? A. It would be very difficult, sir. I would ‘ venture a guess if you wanted me to but with the under- — standing, sir, that it was a guess. ° Q. A calculated guess based on experience? a, I would say easily between 25 to.35 per cent of it. - : 24a Emanuel B. Erber—Travel Ageuh--Oress . EMANUEL E. aaa By Mr. Sisk: | ‘ Q.. Do you find that it takes more time to book a rebuadeahip passenger than it does to book an international air traveler? > ‘A. Yes, it does. , Q. Can you give us any approximate estimate of how ‘much more time it takes in terms of a comparison? Is it half again as much time, twice as much time, that sort of a comparison? A. I would say from three to four times as much time. Q. In your business do you consider. time is no Mr. Erber? A. That’s all I have to sell, sir. ee * ° . ee oe __ Q. Mr. Erber, do you find there are passengers or poten- tial passengers, clients who come into your travel agency, who are not set and do not have predetermined ideas as to —769— the. way they want to aot to Europe? A. Oh, yes,-indeed. - a Q. And do you find these travelers cai be influenced to go by one method of transportation rather: than another? . ‘A. I believe so. \ Q. Do you know whether your employees have in the two. _ years in which you have been approved by the TAPC ever. influenced any passenger who gor poe well set in his method of getting to Europe to go by a No, sir. Q. You just dgn’t know? A. I would say, to the. con- trary, we have tried to inflnence them to go by sea rather than by air. (Tr. "758, 768-69), —758— ieee alii: Mb Achim Lp Tepdeh titted ee ee ends ve i lh a islt Sate rather than by sea? A. | . . 7 * bd punpemenrerthgngenictete Ren EERIE ne ETT RIE TENG OTITIS NT NAOT EY POEUN Sie Lathe ie EATER OIE Set Mt en SEAL sie eT i. als Laie tye LE tll ee ee roplbisset he Sialt 7 (Tr. 769-71) id Emanuel E, Erber—Travel Agent—Cross_ Q.. Why is that? A. Because 1 we feel that— Well we feel that people going to Europe for a vacation, that the use -of a steamship going either direct or in one direction would greatly enhance the vacation. Q. And you do this despite the fact that it takes much more time to do a steamship booking? A.- Unfortunately, yes.. “~ _—770— Q. In. the past year, Mr. Erber, have you found spaces - more available on transatlantic steamers than in the year preceding that? A. Yes, sir. Q. Does this mean that hens is somewhat?less work in- ” volved for you when there is more space available? A. Oh, no. Oh, no. In-selling a steamship space, sir, we find that there are certain procedures that we must follow. This is where our time is consumed. We must first make the reser- vation. We must submit that reservation to our client for approval. If it i is approved, then we must prepare a deposi- —TT1— tory receipt after we get the deposit from our client. We submit this depository receipt to our client. He holds it until such time as we are in a position where we must ask him for balance of the payment. We then contact our client | and ask him for balance of the payment. Sometimes he sends back the depository receipt; Sometimes he doesn’t. If he doesn’t we must ask him for it. We submit this deposi- | tory receipt with the balance ‘of payment to our steamship ‘company. This i is ‘time. This is effort. This you cannot-cur- tail under the present circumstances. This is the way the books say it must be done. This is the way we do it. I pre- sume all agents operate in the same manner. Q. Does it also take more : time i in talking with the passen- oe about where the space is? A. Unquestionably, be- (Tr. 771-72, 774) 26a ak 7 : ee Emanuel E..Erber—Travel Agent—Cross _ cause every client wants to be on top deck in the middle of the ship. Q. I gather from that remark, Mr. Erber,-that probably a great percentage of your business is first class, your steamship business? A. I would say that certainly 80 per- | cent of my business is either first class or top cabin class. - * Q. You just don’t have much tourist business? A. Oh, yes, we do deal with poor people, too. Q. But it is a much smaller percentage of the business? = Yes, sir. CCG id Ah ahh ala yn ec MltS Tate . chai P ° 2 =, a Q. One. last question, Mr. Erber. In dealing with your clients or your potential passengers, what is your present policy with respect to their wishes? A. vos: in so far as what is concerned, sir? © Q. Well, with respect to their interests. Are you a looking out for their interests, toot A. That is why, sir, I go through all of this work in selling more steamship space even though I feel it takes so much more of my time, because I do look after the interests of our cttenta. OA a: ie St is Lots eins hire eal 5 Lb 3 in tigre aed MTS i LT eg arelleiad. an By Mr. McManus: Q. In other words, you say that i in addition to ihe time the experience that you afford is of value? A. Mr. McManus, in discussing that all I have to sell is time it is taking out of context what we were discussing at the time. When | I sell ‘my time, I sell my experience, sir. I am not sélling myself by the hour, but I am selling an individual client _ something that I already possess, the experience that I have gone through through all these years in making a- successful agency. Now, when I say I sell my time I am A ENS ORT” EES Oe ee ee ae ee eae ee LOS LATER ST PEI SF PEN ee aa ie aati ee HO (Tr. 774-75, 796) 27a | Jean _— Newman—Travel A gent—Direct giving this man in that period of time of my experience and my background. / : —T75— Q. In sonneotion with the various time that you give, do you feel that because you have to discuss the particular ship, ‘decks, and the aceommodations in the particular cabins is © the main factor in the time that is involved ‘in your client, as opposed to just an ordinary seat upon an airplane? A. Oh, yes, this would have a great deal to do with it, sir. * * .- . : > * Ley ) —796— Jean Jacgues Newman—Direct By Mr. Blackwell: . Q. Would you turn to the nines: document 129? In the latter portion of the second paragraph you refer to | an attachment to your letter which gives, as you put it, a graphic illustration of your agency’s progress, and you state: “If that illustration shows.a mach larger portion via air carriers this-is due to the fact that since early 1949 we have - been approved agents of the International Air Transport Association.” : Now, how did that, fact influence your eneryingst ra Influenced my carryings in that: sense that while from the type of business that I particularly engage in my interest: would always normally be to favor trans-Atlantic passages by steamship, I nevertheless had to forego that and he direct my tours by air. Q. Why, sir? A. In the operation of sendy tours: with an academic background or eligible for academic credit ‘I would normally need to have a few days on a ship for a ' seminar session with the students, However, this i is impos- sible by air. And it therefore will also ” the same token : 7 re on a ae hee wer 1 ‘4 we ey = — stam: 2b aRNInIaald iat iain ’ ee - a . . ees (Tr. 796-98, 802) 28a | ~ Jean Jacques Newman—Travel Agent—Direct - diminish the potentiality of selling certain tours where academic credits are involved because-I cannot give suffi- _ cient time to the professor who would be the academic direc-. — tor of the tour for his lectures and for-the particular pro- ; ; = gram that will introduce them to the program that is coming afterwards in Europe-within the various countries. Q. So at least on March 25, 1954 it was of direct benefit to "you as a travel agent as well as to your patrons as students- ‘to have them routed by water carriers? Is that correct? A.. Definitely, sir. : ; ' Q. Was that done? A. It couldn’t be done always, though to’a certain degree it’was done when at a certain specific period a student ship became available. , Q. Why wasn’t it done on other occasions? A. On other - occasions it couldn’t be done because I could not spend more money in advertising in yarious media which are not only the press in which I advertise regularly but also the aca- * demic publications, college newspapers, which are lesser - known by the operators of steamships, and pay for it and not get paid for it: I did not get any-money out of it. Q. In other words, you did not receive commissions for .— trans-Atlantic’ passages? A. I did not receive commis- sions, ~ , 7 | -Q. Are there any other reasons, Mr. Newman, why you did not use water carriers more extensively beside commis- PRET eR eee CEN Th POL Le en ete Ma CR RO ace sions? A. I don’t think that there were any other reasons except that one. he ; . : es * *. ‘ * 2 . ; —s02— ee ¢ 8 . ; Q. And during this period you sold tickets on air carriers to Europe even though it was not to your best interests or your clients’ best interests necessarily ? Is that correct? A. - -_ 7 wv ’ ee ee Ae ee Ee, chee Pe One Meee a Os ae MOE Pa ead : : , ALIPAC ID ee Ne EE Te AEE PEST TTL ETT NEE IT EE EET ES Seer meres (Tr. 802, 827-28, 860-61) — 29a . ; Eugene William Hammer—Travel Agent—Direct. Joseph Neufeld—Travel Agent—Direct I’ would say from the point of view. aside from the money there’s. the,term of interest where as an agent I feel I can give the best service. I felt that I’m able to give the best service to a specific category of clients by routing them via steamship. Not being able to earn any money by it, —- _ . diverted this by air, - SE eae” _* —-*——" ee *@& * —-—- ~ EvuGENE WILLIAM HamMEen—Ditect . ' « * e -@¢ -@ _. Q. Now, if you look at the next to the last paragraph of that letter ‘in the second sentence you indicate that you’re - _. °° —828— giving steamer bookings away but in the future you'll pre- sent the public with a different picture. What did you mean by that, Mr. Hammer? , A. Well,.a number. of people that come in are more or less on the fence. They would like a trip. They’re open to suggestion. And instead of offer- ing a two-sided picture for their fravel, if we couldn’t ever hope to get the steamship commission or the appointment ‘and thereby get the commission, we’d be ridiculous in sell- ing eee at We would dé our darndest to sell air. * * * * J OSEPH NrEvuFELD—Direct : * * . * * _ A. Well, we in the travel business all feel that we are salesmen, and if a client comes in ‘and discusses a vacation or a proposed trip we can either discuss steamship to ' ‘an advantage or we can discuss air to.an advantage. In our — sinte 1954, until we received recognition we were ; = | ven not promoting steamship travel beckiase 1 we oat work ¢ ~ 30a, * Joseph Neufeld—Travel Agent—Direct _Q. And it is your belief that if ‘you had promoted it it -could have been substantially increased, is that correct? — A.- Well, I feel that a certain percentage of our ‘prospective. clients might have been induced to take steamship one way or both ways. ha. ‘e - * * . ** -* | Josern Nevretp—Cross| 7: * e @ * . * By Mr. Sisk: Q. Now, Mr. ‘Neufeld, with respect to your testimony regarding the statement in your letter about $350,000 worth -of transatlantic business and the fact that you could have diverted some of that to steamship travel, what percent of the people who come into your agency are open minded --. or not set on the way they want to travel? A. Well, I have to break it down into two categories before I answer that. You have a commercial traveler and the pleasure traveler. (Tr. 861, 864, 866) pare Sees bah A idl selec £7 : ee De; 866, 869, 879) eum "s 3la , J oseph N eufeld—Travel A gent—Redirect ' Q. And would I be correct to say that in some cases you think it is better for them to go by a than by air? A. In some cases. > Q. And perhaps vice versa, but it operates both ways? A. Yes. Q. Do you find from your own experience that there are - More cancellations of reservations occurring in the air transportation arrangements you make than i in steamship? — A. a ant a. oe * * * JosePH NevFreLp—Redirect © : ByMr. Blackwell: Q. Now, one -of the first questions Mr. Neaher asked you on cross examination was what was your primary | motive in selling transportation today in view of the trav- eler’s needs, and you said, “Now?” And he said, “Yes.” And when you said “Now” I presume you are speaking of the period after appointment? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was your primary motive before appointment? ‘A. To sell as many air tickets as we could so we could earn - a living. . Q. Because you weren’t ene steamship commission? A. Yes, sir. Q. Would you consider it was a matter of survival to sell air? A. Yes. —879— The Witress: Well, point No. 1 it is more easy to. memorize flights to London, Paris or Rome. If a cli- ent comes in and discusses flights we can say there is a daily flight to London or daily flight to Paris or daily si to Rome. . On a steamship we can’t do. A ss * . , SSR igirma a0: TONE Aas to ee Oa eae SELIG Ce A SCARE? tai eo SPR = mi 4 . = . ' . Toe ‘ é ~ ny tin (Tr. 879-80) -) 328 : ee Joseph Neufeld—Travel ‘djeni~-Militanle a | that. We have to dig out the sailing schedule, a ref-— _ erence book, and find out what ships are sailing at - what time to what ports. Then you have deck plans. There are no deck plans to contend with by air, but © there are deck plans in first.class, cabin class and ' tourist.class on ships, and I feel that it takes a great deal more time to explain classes on steamship than ~ it does classes by air. Then you have to arrange for deck chairs on a steamship. You have to arrange for — dining reservations. This is is all done by lettgrwriting, ie =880— In most cases the clients are going to have some kind of a bon voyage party, and that necessitates writing | to tlie line and asking for setups and hors d’oeuvres. | And then you have such a vast difference in the loca- tions of space aboard ships that it takes some time as to telling a client where they should be at what rate, and so on and so forth. Then you have the deposit receipt, which you don’t have on air. And then you have the frequency of paying the lines compared to the frequency of paying the airlines, steamship over air. In canceling with air, I have explained before if” . is comparatively simple, whereas with a steamship company you have to write an additional letter and — ‘@ ask for your deposit to come back and when you get _the deposit run it through your accounting and return = it to the client. I feel that making up the tickets on a steamship require more time, and I feel that the ex- perience acquired by a person selling steamship over q selling air is—requires much more’experience to sell a steamship ticket to a client successfully, intelli- gently, than it does on an air ticket. I think. that’s _ abont it. ; Rory ioe r ” MissiScncees Wie ius’ RL Nee ete PRL OREE Te Ok Pa ee Set i _e és Q. Do you have berthing problems with your ships | be- tween upper and lower berths? A. Yes. a c EET Bt A” Ce ee a EP LM I ait oe on aaa say is iS slaaesbn a aes Das snekiraxKees — ee er (Tr. 880-81, 1085, 1104) eC Ce? : Joseph ae Chairman & Sec'y—Cross Q. Neieihee of rooms in a particular berth? -A. Yes. ed Do you have that on- a the air? e Louis ScoenKer—Direct . oa vee . —1378— . * ° « * . By Mr. Smith, Hearing Counsel: Q. Does a steamship booking take more time to com. plete than a comparable air booking? A. If it’s done right it definitely does. . eo Q. Why is that so? A. Well, I can only speak for my- self, or rather our type of business. We have a clientele which I suppose you would call in the upper bracket, and that’s not necessarily moneywise, but they are the kind ¢ who when they travel by ship they ‘want, a great deal of Service. dpe ake ; The first thing they might come in and sit with me for ~ an hour or longer or any: one of our staff and just discuss what class they should go in. Sometimes they have the . = NRO ape? FO EE oe oe ee a Te, i if Pog OO nm ee -— ai seal PES RIE cr meer - , (Tr. 1378-79) 44a . Louis Schenker—Travel Agent—Direct idea that although they have traveled in first class, maybe they Gould save some money if they ‘travel in cabin class, — -shall we say. Pee | We then have to explain to them what they can expect in. cabin class by comparison to first class. . “We then conie to the point where they want to decide that they’ would like to go on X date. Well, then we open — up our official steamship guide and we see what steamship lines are going at that particular time. | ics | rae ae ‘When we have decided on steamship .X, we then have to open a plan and show them the rooms, the types of rooms and, as ‘is normal with ‘a person, they would like to get the most for their money and still not spend over . necessarily, and therefore we must point out to them: “Well, this room bears such a rate, and that room bears such a rate,” et cetera. And that takes a. considerable amount of time. | ayes Assuming that we’d finally convinced them of what they want, we then have to call the steamship line and find out whether such space is available. a Now, if it is something that, shall we say, this is January and they’re talking about the end of June or July, we nat- urally have less trouble in picking out the kind of a room or close to’ it. But if you get into the months of shall we 7 ‘say April and you’re asking for July, it becomes a little difficult. And sometimes we have to accept what’ is known as a guarantee—which means that they'll carry them on the ship. . eee Sometimes it. will be no rate specified, which means that they guarantee but they don’t know whether it will be a ‘minimum, a middle range, or a maximum one. There are a great, many things. gr nes x aa nr . eee EL OF Se Skee ee * owt ’ g . ; (Tr. 1379-81) Wee 45a Louis Schenker—Travel Agent—Direct — Assuming that we’ve gone over that hurdle, we then have to make out a deposit receipt, assuming that the passenger has given us a deposit, and we send it to the — ’ —1380— line, . . By that 1 mean we also have to put it-into a trust account, because we cannot mix that money with any of . our other monies. ; ts | Ray. We then give the original receipt to the client, because we are not allowed to keep any of those receipts, | _ It happens occasionally that the client losses the receipt when it comes to the point of payment, which means that we then have to—or the clieht—or soméhow—I’m not quite sure whether there’s a bond has to. be put up—because . ‘until the receipt is found, at least.for the life of a year dr ¢ something like that. ‘ | - ‘Subsequently we issue the ticket, and again we have to - go through the routine of depositing in this particular ac- _ count, sending the net amount to the line, and so on down _ the line. per 7 "sige And I think’I have spoken for at least five minutes just- on that subject,.so that gives you an idea of how long it _ takes to actually do it. .- Saree : Q. Are your clients as a general rule experienced ty ; erg? A. In most‘cases. ; __Q. Do you have customers who are open-minded as to the choice between sea and air for a trans-Atlantic passage? | 7 ini Sap ? —1381— A.* Yes. @. 5 , -Q. Do you influence them to go:one way or another as a matter of eourse? A. That depends on the circum- . ~ stances, because, first of all, we must serve the client’s best interest, and when we're satisfied: that we're doing ? , 2 YI ORL OS A PON I: it nl esl ala Fe, ee Oe a eet Tee REELS WOM sy 8 PORE ET RN NMR HSS AIOE RSE TE we c = oe ee Z M ord * . - ; | | (Tr. 1381-82) 46a ; Louis Schenker—Travel Agent—Direct that, then we think of ourselves. That’s the most important — thing. Are we going to make seven per cent or are we going to make ten per cent? | i And since in many of our eases we have F. I. T.’s for them and when we sell them an air ticket we are entitled to get the extra three per cent which gives us ten per cent— that-is, with certain rules and regulations which we live up to and they’re gasy enough to live: up to—naturally. we like to make ten per cent instead of seven per cent. By the same token, we. prefer to sell eruises on the '. same trans-Atlantic lines because we get ten per cent through just selling them a steamship ticket. Q. Do you sell more international air than trans-Atlantic steamship? A. Oh, yes, @ good deal more. — : _ _Q. Could your agency survive if all the trans-Atlantic _ bookings were by steamship rather than by air? A. Well, if we went into a hole instead of a nice-looking office and if we employed slave labor or something like that, perhaps fs | - —1382— we could survive. | - Q. Do you do any business with non-conference lines? "A. Never did, because I was told not to, and I live up strictly to the rules of all the conferences. | Q. Do you have customers ‘that request passage on 4& non-conference line? A. Occasionally. » Q. What’do you do in that case? A. We just tell them we're sorry, we don’t sell them, or if we. want to protect ourselves in a sense we telf them why they shouldn’t travel ‘on a freighter, because actually the cost of passage on a freighter is sometimes somewhat higher than what the tourist class is trans-Atlantic. They-do not carry a doctor. We find many good reasons why we should try to sell them on the trans-Atlantic. Clan env . : *, ; ‘ , | (Tr. 1382, 1384-85) ‘ 47a Louis Schenker—Travel Agent—Cross But, on the other hand, we do lose some Sinan that’s what they want. ) * * a & e Lovis ScoenkeER—Cross. | Pst | ' —1384— | By Mr. Sisk: Q. In the course of your contacts with steamship repre- — sentatives do you come into contact with the PTM’s, the: passenger traffic managers? A. Pepending on Se circum- _ stances. — QQ. You have on occasion met with Messrs. ial Pen- nington, Austin, Gautier? A. Yes, I know them quite well. Q. Have you ever discussed the subject of commissions with these gentlemen? .A. I personally never have on that - point other than in personal conversation without making -it official, because that subject was taken up by National ASTA and it was their function to do it in béhalf of all: the members rather than the chapter themselves. Q. Now, on these personal talks with these scsetaasan . did the subject ever arise? A. Oh, yes. c _Q. And what‘did you say and what did— A. Well, - generally: speaking, it’s become almost a joke, because it’s been going on,‘shall I say, for the last 20 years or longer. And so I’d say, “Well, when are we going to get that —1385— famous ia: per cent, commission?” And laughingly whoever it may be would probably turn around and say, “Well, we're getting there. We're getting there.” Or else they'd say, “Well, so far as I’m concerned I'd ' be very glad to be’ for it. In fact, most of the members are. But then there is a unanimity clause and there’s somebody who says no, and that means that ‘we can’t do it.” -+ @ « ~ | . (Tr. 1385, 1416-18) 48a ae Thomas J. Donevan—Travel Agent—Direct : : - . i ‘I would then: say,°“Who’s the nigger in the woodpile?” \ But they’d hever tell me. . ee. ! ‘\ NS Fs ye ‘2 eo :. ~*~ * ~ ‘\. Tuomas J. Donovan—Direct By Mr. Sisk: | % —1416— . Q. Now, what has been your experience, with the people . who want tq travel to Europe? Havé-you found in the course of your. business that you “are able to influence potential travelers ing-to arrange for transportation to~Europe, about what per cent would you say are subject to being influenced to: go by one means of transportation rather than another? | - A, L:would’say currently it probably runs 50 to 60 per cent - of all the people you talk to that are persuadable. e 8 © © & ge — —1417— Q. What has been the experience of your agency: with respect to the amount of time involved in handling steam- © . ship, bookings as compared to the amount of time involved in handling international air bookings? A. I. would. say that my estimation is it probably takes ten times as much. ae 7 Shel ah Be. —1418— time to process a steamship booking from inception to completion over the issuance. of an airline ticket, and that’s . Ronsidering the selling and_ everything else. A Now, that doesn’t pertain in every case.. Some cases are worse. But generally I would say it takes about ten times : as much man hours to complete the booking.” ‘Q. In your business do you consider that time is money? A. Oh, it’s the only thing we've got to sell, plus knowledge. . ‘ * « * ee. ° . AES PRE PF BATE MATHER PAN Yeh SAE PRPS IS IRIE SEG Se OT ’ : : . ‘s 4 oo. > oa PRE OPED ME ae EE TOME, ROMS SE LD pd ge FRM ¥ ; " 2a FO SERRE Teese aati pr Pera (Tr, 1430, 1444-45) 49a Thomas J. Donovan—Travel Agent—Direct- ees | : . * : . . —1430— Q. One last question, Mr. Donovan, with respect to your promotional activities.” Does the amount of .commission which you receive on TAPC bookings havé an effect: on ~ the amount of promotion which you do? .A. Very definitely. . Q. What is that fact? A. We don’t do as niuch. We can’t afford it. ) ; — 3." * e e .* : Q. What’ was .the responset A. Weil,. the abies of the meeting as far as the carriers was concerned said that: they again couldn’t have any minutes, that they wanted | Selo ea cke el “a. \: to keep this on the same informal basis that it had been - run in the past, and we told them that because .we had done a terrific amount of research work and surveys with all the agents in this country that we definitely wanted to have - minutes taken, because we felt that the change in com- - missions that had taken place that previous spring were nowhere satisfactory as far as we were concerned, and that we were still insisting on a differential commission ‘paid to Canadian and American agents. We were told we. ~ could not-have any minutes or the meeting would have to disband, and the statement was further made that we can “never have any minutes as long as you have those anti- trust laws in the United States.. Q. Who made that statement? °A. Mr. Whitehead, Cunard Line. He was the chairman of the carriers. ~, +-- Q. And he made that statement in the presence of the , other people who wer® there from ASTA and ICCTAt A. Yes, sir. , ''Q. ‘Well, what was the result of the 1957 ICCTA meet- _ ing in so far as your ‘request for higher commissions was \ concerned? A. Nothing to this date. . - wueny whee XO OS WO OE TPT Pat, “a v PRRs sco ge oot aoc erm tener Re eee Te ee =a — (Tr. 1445-46, 1449) 50a | Thomas J. Donovan—_Lyavel Agent—Cross Q. Now, you ‘cate a sabuaineis earlier today to the fact. that you refused to go to another ICCTA oe When « was that? A. a —1446— Q. Why did you refuse to got A. I just felt we were . beating our head ‘against the. wall. We had gone three years. We had used everything, that the power of speech . has to impress upon these folks the necessity of what we were asking. -Mr. Piscatella had in his presentation in ’57 written to the Bureau of Labor Statistics in Washington, and we had. come up with a report on 98 cities throughout the United States showing what the wage scale and salary brackets were in the 28 cities. And I had asked many, many people in not only the steamship business but the air line business, hotel and agency business throughout Europe, and I had yet even as late‘as my last trip, which was last year, to have anybody. tell me that they, pay a secretary _ more ‘than $150 a month. And I felt that our, destinies were being controlled by people who were paying “that kind of salary and couldn’t comprehend that” we had to pay the salaries we do in this Ny Tuomas J. Donovan—Cross By Mr. Blackwell: Q. During any of these meetings’ with the Atlantic Con- —1449— ference were you ever told by any of the representative | lines or the ‘Conference officials that the Atlantic Con- ference in fact had achieved a majority vote on the ques- | tion of commissions but were not able to achieve unanimous © agreement? A. Ihave heard a statement— Mr. Neaher: I think we are getting into an area here where we ought. to be a little more ina a a alc mali em Khannie as HERR Fiat ail SEGRE NILE IE ENE ETT sears AWAY meee POU TAY pie dita Seasick ice ssicsd i lt eins eee oe) on ‘ - “ = wy . 7 . rar aon ee pen rae " eS : Lv . ° ~ | (Tr. 1449-50) dla ~ Thomas J. Donovan—Travel Agent—Cross First of all, I think we ought to have a yes or no — answer. Perhaps the answer will be “yes” in view of the witness’ preliminary remarks, but let’s:estab- ~ ' lish that. Mr. Blackwell: | want to know how we can estab- lish it unless the witness answers the question, Mr. ‘Neaher. Examiner Roth: I will overrule the objection. Mr. Blackwell: Will you read the question back, Mr. Reporter? (The reporter read the pending question.) Mr. Neaher: May I have a yes or no answer with. —_ —1450— . respect to that first? The Witness: Yes. By Mr. Blackwell: Q. Would you ‘explain your answert | Mr. Neaher: I don’t think it needs any explana- tion.» By Mr. Blackwell: Q. Who told you, ‘Mr. Donovant A. Well, I can’t re- amember. I have heard several steamship men make the statement that we have to convert two, or three members of ; the Conference. Q. ‘Where were the statements made to yout A. In London and in Paris. Q. During meetings of the Atlantic Conference? . A. Not during meetings. It would be either at a lunch before or. cocktails after. Q. Do you know the lines that these gentlemen repre- sented? A. I am almost certain that the United States Fal (Tr. 1450, 1453-54, 1465- -" 52a Thomas J. Donovan—Travel Agent—Cross ‘Lines was involved in leaving that connotation, and also Cunard Line. ~ SP eee et ee. =" oa Q. Let the record show the correction. Breaking into the third paragraph, it states that ICCTA proposed that all agency appointments in the United States and Canada should be subject ‘to Conference control. What was the foundation for that proposal, Mr. Donovan? A. Well, I think it is the position of ASTA, and it is my personal : — —1454— opinion, that the Conference is the only modus operandi to run a respectable business. The carriers and the prin- cipals must have .some control over their salesmen and. their agents, and you just can’t have anybody - who owns a banana stand and a ball point pen selling steamship tickets or air tickets or any other kind of travel. * 2 * e * oa aera —1465— ‘A. All right. Now, just a moment. "For example, if I run a tour to Europe and I sell you a ticket for you and your wife, unless I have you on a prearranged tour which has a. code number, my income is. seven per-cent from the car: rier. By Mr. N. eaher: Q. From the steamship carriers? A. No, from the air- line carrier. Q. From the airlines as well? A. But the mimate a \ / —1466— put out a tour folder and wer, a number on it, they auto- matically pay me ten per cent on that ticket. | | : i. 1466, 1474-75) 53a , Thomas J. Donovan—Travel Agent—Cross Q. EY see. A. So that is why I’m in the tour Sidianeb > because I can increase my income 30 per cent off the trans- portation. - Q. I think that’s a very wise decision on your part. Tm . not quarreling with ‘it in the slightest. —1474— Q. So what I’m getting at is you gave a relative estimate that it took ten times'as much time to process a sea book- ing as against an airline ticket-and I wondered just what you included in the time. A. The time is putting your 3 —1475— request in for space and normally haat + to’ wait until © _ such. time as they tell you what you'r ’re ‘going to have for the passenger. Q. Yes, but during that waiting time you’ re not just waiting to— You're not doing nothing waiting to hear | from them. What I’m concerned about is: Does the actual | mechanical process of effecting a booking through to com- _ pletion take ten times as much time as it does to put an airline reservation through? A.. I’ would say an. absolute- minimum of five per cent on the paper work. An absolute — ‘minimum of five times as much work on the paper work to get a steamship booking, get your deposit receipt issued, your actual ticketing, and explaining the type of accom- - modations on the ship, and the-price range, and so on. It is very, very rare that anybody ever goes in to | a travel agency office and says that, “I want to pay”—or that they want to go first class and you can get ‘gepeeety what they want right off the bat. , Q. But the actual ticketing procedure you would now say might take five times as much as af airline? A. The -ticketing,-but there’s also many phone calls and letters _— >. SOR are en. aera RL EET BE SIE LLP ELEE BELLE LIEN BALL ILE IY ERC LL AI EEL LR OR IO . 2 a ie aa ~ . ia (Tr. 1475, 1489-90) 54a ee, Thomas J. Donovan—Travel Agent—Redirect that have to be written, which you have nothing to do like that with an airline. é * * * * * Tuomas J. Donovan—Redirect | , Pre —1489— * ° *& * * & By Mr. isk: Q. But this part of. Four discussititie with these poten- tial travelers which involves only the way of getting to Europe is more time spent with one kind of transportation than with the other? A. I would say definitely, because your explanation of.air.travel across the Atlantic is that you have curreritly a DC-8, you have gota Botania, and you have got a 707, and right now you have a problem of explaining what a turbo fan is. When you get down to ship, you are always explaining the positioning of the ‘ stateroom on the ship, whether it is inside or outside, whether you are buying a port side going over or star- board side going over and port side coming back. In other words, this is all part of your deal of selling, and . this is what complicates the situation. You may get a very —1490— satisfactory room in one direction and a very poor“one in the other direction, and then you have to explain to them . why. And then the other thing that our people are- getting killed with are guarantees, which is very good as far as the passenger is concerned, and. it is good as far as the steamship line is concerned, but it is like trying to explain. a lease to a customer, to explain that they are not getting tlie business when they take guaranteed space. | Q. Perhaps you can explain that to me. I don’t know about that. A. Well, the shipping line—I don’t know what the ratio of turnover on reservations is, but I wouldn’t be a bit surprised that on cruise ships, for example, it may run. ¢ as high as 70 percent, where a person especially on the sea- ne RE ee CO BOLO TE ERIE AIOE TOE SIF (Tr. 1490-91) 55a Thomas J. Donovan—Travel nat Pranacsice board on the East and the West Coast who are more cognizant of ship travel and the requirements and nec- essity of making earlier reservations will make a reserva- tion today for a trip going maybe to the South Pacific a year from next spring. I just had a case in the office the other day of a very wealthy woman trying to get on a North Cape cruise on the Gripsholm in June this year. ‘ We are trying to get her on a Greek island trip on the same-ship next March, and trying to get her on the South Pacific cruise in 63, and also on the North Cape in ’62. ’ They want two single rooms. Now, we will list it with the .steamship line, and they will do everything possible to try - —1491— . to get it, but they have to observe a priority. But they are liable to come along and say, “Well, we are going to have so- many cancellations, so we will guarantee at’ a certain rate.” And then the steamship lines always pro- - vide that kind of accomniodations or better. But this is like selling a pig in a poke to somebody, asking will you — buy-a suit and pay $300 for it and you are afraid you are’ going to end up. with one of these jobs for $39.50. But the steamship lines. are always going to give you the $300 suit.. Figuratively you may get one for $350 or $375. So- that gives them an opportunity to run a higher load fac- tor. But the explanation of this takes along time, and everybody is always apprehensive about it. Q. So that with respect to the explanations relating to. the portion of the trip across the Atlantic and back, and ~ *- .only that portion ‘of the trip, does it take more time, of aon h time personally, to do one kind of travel than. the 40% A. Yes, definitely. Q. Which travel takes the more time? A. The ship Aravel ) Ber-aen, > ° ° 7 — 2 AEA pes —— _ ROTA TLE LENORE YE NT ONE NEE TES I TIE oe : NER ITE MO oe ROARING OPC IIS I ABE Teer PPG LEE OB L OI OI I eee (Tr. 1501, 1824-25, 1850) 56a RB. le Siien—Holl -Am. L. Pass. Traffic. iin Seldie | Donald I. Knowles—TAPSC See 'y—Direct —1501— ® . @ 4%. 8% * Mr. Sisk: .. . “If'additional travel agent witnesses _ were to be called by counsel for ASTA, their testi- mony with respect to the operations of travel agen- cies and the sale of steamship and international air- - line tickets would be substantially similar to the testimony of the travel, agent witnesses now of record.” Is that agreeable to you, Mr. Blackwell? Mr. Blackwell: I will so stipulate. Mr. Neaher: I will so stipulate. - Mr. Sisk:” Thank you. . Examiner eae The oem is accepted. * * * E. I. Liman—Cross | a |) oo * a > - * r i By Mr. Neaher: Q. Mr. Liman, when you were agian about that | 100 cost for agents, keeping them on the list, is ‘that an annual expense, $100 a year? A. That’s my rough estimate of what it costs us to provide him with literature, posters, general promotional material, postage, et cetera. | g-vettly. _ But that's a yearly expense? A. That’s —1825— expense, yes. We Q.. And that’s exclusive of othian indirect expense of an overhead nature? A. Oh, yes, of course’ That’s purely out of pocket expense. Ss ©& "O's: . Downaxp I. Knowtes—Direct eS —1850— - * & ® * * j Q. Now, in that letter I notice there is. a reference’ to | conference circulars, and would you explain what those .. FILE E LD a Recaeer ot) . (Tr. 1850-52) 3 57a Donald I. Knowles—TAPSC Secretary—Direct are? A. Well, the new appointee or the new addition to the list will receive from the lines probably very shortly the sub-agency appointment agreement, but he will not have the most, recent: conference circulars that we issue in behalf of all lines. In order that: he may be up to date on the latest material, we enclose mis current conference circulars. e @ cue speaking, what purpose is served by ci?- ser ais cularization of information in this form? A. Well, serves in my opinion a good purpose. No. 1, it’s one cir- cular covering material which each line ‘would otherwise be obliged to send out themselves. In other words, . the - agent would receive 24 or 25 circulars worded differently with respect to these items. And doing this we can give the agent the material he needs, the information he ll quires, for one central file. It helps I think the agent greatly i in Mit « a standard- ized circular which of course the text of which has been approved by all lines. a | * * * = * 7 . 4 —1852— * & * * * Q. Now, we have heard throughout the testimony here references to the role of the conference auditor, and I think a man named Stark has had his name taken in vain on many occasions. Where does the conference fit in with regard to auditing sub-agents? A. Well,.in the appoint- ment agreement, on the back page of Exhibit No. 113, in © Item 19, it provides that the books of the sub-agency shall ~ « be open to inspection by a line-auditor or a duly authorized representative of the conference. | Pepe: PPLE ICTR ER A. EEE REE EE OL AIIIE A SINE EC ELIT DLE NGE ELL SO RGD LED LEI LPE LLIG GLOL ALTRI (Tr. 1853, 1876-77) 58a\ ) 5 Robert W. HemphilTroe Agent—Direct \ —1853— And the auditor serves actually two purposes. One is to | inventory the ticket stock, to check \on the agency records, © and I think that Mr. Stark has been-most helpful to many - agents in assisting them in revising ‘their auditing, their bookkeeping systems, which is beneficial not only to’ the lines but to the agent. That’s really his only main | function. * * * * * \ Rosert Ww. Hempuityt—Direct ‘ . . —1876— * S ae: we ~s By Mr. Sisk: Q. In your opinion, what is the amount of experience which is necessary for someone to become a qualified travel agent? A. A qualified travel agent? I would say from _ three to five years. Q. And in your opigion, how long does it take for some- ‘body to become qualified to handle steamship bookings on trans-Atlantic trade? A. I would say that in Los Angeles, there aren’t very many people whom I would consider weRk highly qualified to handle steamship business. I think it takes five years, at least, to make a good steamship man. : : 7 et _—1877— The man who is in an of our steamship department is a man in his’40’s; and he loves ships, he likes to sell ships,. he has been highly trained, and he has had between 20 and 25 years’ experience as a steamship agent. I consider him one of the most qualified men in Los Angeles. I dori think - there are more than a half a dozen of them, : Q. How dees the amount of experience necessary to handle steamship bookings compare, with the amount of eae eer necessary to do international air bookings? © Examiner Roth: I would remind you that you are getting into cumulative testimony in the light of the "stipulation on thé record. | \ 4 a lala ale iit Kien inlilell 8 - ° oe oO v " wY ‘ =n) . a . ‘ \ . ye ; : re | (Tr. 1877-78) 59a ’ Robert W.- Hemphill—Travel Agent—Direct Mr. Sisk: Well, I shall be as brief as possible. _ This is my last question on this subject. Beene. weg The Witness: Would you repeat your question again, please? “he Examiner Roth: Would you read it, Miss Craft? . (The pending question was read by the Reporter.) The Witness: It takes more experience, to handle steamship bookings because you deal with different — lines, with different types of accommodation, With varying rates, and that experience is difficult to ac- quire. You 'can-sell an air ticket because the rates - are all fixed, and there is no variation. You don’t. have to be familiar with all the different classifica- tions of accommodation on board ‘the ship. ~ The ship passenger, the surface-minded customer, we have found, is more leisurely minded and is more deliberate. He will come to our office with’ his wife and spend hofrs sitting around a desk discussing” these things with us. He frequently changes his mind. We get into discussions regarding. the type ~of accommodation. He is not satisfied with his room. He wants it changed. It goes back and forth and takes a lot of trouble. oh With the air booking, there is only first class or economy class. - The passenger is only going to be in the air a matter of hours instead of a matter of | days. The importance of these things, it is not so great to him. .We get into more fruitless and un. profitable discussion when we handle people who | are traveling- by ship, It takes more time. - —1878— ; ¥ _ : ; ; a ee tie . e Roe . fe + (Tr. 1879, 1883). eee eos Robert W. Hemphill-—Travel, Agent—Direct - SF atte 3 = ¥ * ‘e. '« Boas Q. And in your business, have you found that your sales people and yourself are able to influence passengers who travel by one means of transportation rather than another? ‘- . -Examiner Roth: I would like to repeat my state- | ment. ‘I don’t think an answer to’that is necessary. * Mr. Sisk: Well, I’d prefer to have an answer, Mr. » Examiner. This is not going to take very long, and ' although it may be a bit cumulative, I would like to. : get an answer from Mr. Hemphill on this question and move on to something else. end : ‘-““Pyaminer Roth: How much cumulative testimony | do you éxpect to put ‘into this record, Mr. Sisk? —. »* * Mr. Sisk: ‘Very little. Very little additional. be | Examiner Roth: I will allow the answer to this one question; I will stop any answers which I con- sider cumulative from here on. (The pending question was read by the reporter.) The Witness: Yes, we do. | | , a a) . oe + Q. In any event, Mr. Hemphill, when you were told that it was not the custom to take minutes, did you do anything . ~ °. further about that subject? A. Yes, I again informed the ‘chairman that ‘as ‘President of ASTA representing - ap- proximately 13 or 1400 travel agents, I would like to have minutes taken of the meeting so. that we could prepare a _ progress report for ASTA; that I had traveled from ‘the © _ west coast expressly for this meeting, that Mr. Dono- _. van, the past President, had traveled from ‘Chicago, Mr. _' McGrath from Florida and Mr. Piscatella from head- | ‘quarters. ° cana Ds eae 5 ‘The chairman, as I remember the statement, said this: £ .° : . Aten tg SREP ORIN a - _ - " baa Mercere PRAIED EEL HEL HEE MI ANAT AE seal i oo ati aieeat ht iy ARSATLTS VEMATNIONTO TM wy Here REIN AR ae ELISHA sages yo MORAN ae 7 Rosert W. HemPani—Cross ; | —1899— o S*.:& - + ; By Mr. Blackwell: Q. Now, as to your conversation with“Mr. McConnell ° of American Export Lines, where did that. take place? A. _Ithink I remember two occasions. - Q. Where? A. One at the home of the American Ex- port Line agent in Los Angeles at a party, and I think an- other one at an ASTA convention ‘at the conclusion of the steamship seminar. Q. Where? A. It was either Madrid or Koma I -don’t remember which it was. Q. And Mr. McConnell was present there a as well? A. Yes. Q. has is he? What is his capacity with American Ex- —1900— liek Lines? A. I believe— Again Th not familiar with © these technical titles. I believe he j is— Whether he is U.S. ‘sales manager or general: manager: or — traffic A nd I’m not sure. . ener os PES TE IRN TE veel PRPS PRR hae ERO alia TON Cee ‘By Mr. Sisk: | (Tr, 1944-45, 1948-49) i 62a Robert W. Hemphill—Travel Agent—Redirect —1944— ~ * e -* 8 -. A. Something I would like to point out in this connection, I hope it is relevant. Many retail agents are reluctant to tell you what I have told you because they are afraid it might reflect upon their standing with a steamship cor riers. By Mr. Neaher: _ Q. Did any of them ever indicate: they had ever been told anything like that? A. No, but I know a lot of agents wou be afraid to give testimony Such as I would . —1945— give because they are afraid that the steamship companies, . they might antagonize the steamship companies. I think agents on the east coast, their steamship business is more important, to them than it is to us on the west coast. _Q. If Iwere to tell you that I don’t have an exact count, but I would say that at least 8 agent witnesses have testi- fied here, called either by Public Counsel or by counsel for. ASTA, would that change your opinion any? A. I am not familiar; I merely stated that as an opinion. | eee eo a 2 ~ Rosert [Text truncated at 120,000 characters. The full text is on the page linked above.] --- Source: Frix Law Library, https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40386412_0135%3A01. Public record. Not legal advice.