# Transcript of Record — Milanovich v. United States > Briefs, arguments, decisions, and more. URL: https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40386409_0336%3A1 ## Record - **Collection:** Supreme Court brief - **Document type:** Transcript of Record - **Published:** January 1, 1961 - **Citation:** 365 U.S. 551 ## Text FILE GOPY. ~- . TRANSCRIPT OF RECORD Supreme Court of the United States OCTOBER TERM, 1960 ° No. 79 MIKE MILANOVICH, ET AL., PETITIONERS, vs. UNITED STATES. ey tee ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS ; FOR THE FOURTH CIRCUIT . PETITION FOR CERTIORARI FILED MAY 6, 1960" CERTIORARI GRANTED JUNE 20, 1960 an i SUPREME COURT OF.THE UNITED STATES _ OCTOBER TERM, 1960 ~ No. 79 | MIKE MILANOVICH, ET AL., PETITIONERS, vs. | UNITED STATES. ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FOURTH CIRCUIT ieee INDEX ’ Original Print Record from the United States ‘District Court for the Eastern District of rr Indictment _._.. 2 1 Motion for bill of particulars . 5° -8 Answer to bill of particulars . 22 6 Judgments and Commitments 63. 9 Proceedings in chambers | _.. 65 13 Appearances ___- 65 13 Colloquy between Court and counsel and pre ings on motion for bill of particulars . 66 13 Transcript of trial ar - 1 21 Appearances _.. 2- _ Colloquy between Court and evansel 3 22 'e Excerpts from testimony of Marvin E. Steffen— _ direct... 35 24 " Robert E. Thompson— i ey ‘asthe 73 33 Herman F. Drummond— . IEE licdsanneceaiicisinncdenanitoneie 283 35 ReEcorp Press, Printers, New York, N. Y., OcToser. 18, 1960 . P . ii INDEX : . . ~ « | Original Print Record from the United States District Court for * the Eastern District of Virginia—Continued _ Transcript of trial proceedings—Contisiued Excerp§s from testimony of ye Raymond Alfred Jones— ae direct ae oti 321 39 Michael T. Harbrook-— ‘Sn SE ree 338, 43 Floyd 8S. Barwick— a ee ee Proceedings out of the presence of the jury 363 50 Excerpts from testimony of Arthur R. Edmonds— NE eesteenines 395 52 : Howard Kenneth Bruce— . direct 400 53 cross _ CER RA Sh ‘4038 + 55 redirect ._ . : 404 56 Vondi Spratt— * John Michael Cahill— = ° . ; Ge ..-- 5 a 58. ir oe . 410 59 Robért J. Bouvier— . direct __... nnaatsiabieati 410 60 ‘Lionel O. Crowder— ’ ' - , ip RIE Ea ae. ee. Ae ee 413 61 ES ene ee ° 415 $ Cornelius R. Anderson— | . nn ae eeNeNee a eT 416 ‘63 Testimony of Donna Grimmer— direct 532 65 cross 539 69 Hugh J. Smith— : : Pe I csr 545 . 73 : Herman F. Drummond— , > : 586 977 redirect ... a ty) INDEX ° Record fromthe United- States District Court for the Eastern District. of Virginia—Continued Transcript of trial proceedings—Continued ae of Benjamin we Guerrieri— direct cross _ ; Christ Sofocleous— direct _ _. —— y A Grimmer— redirect Virginia Milanovich— direct ats Mike Milanovich— direct Benjamin T. Guerrieri— Marvin E. Steffen— ' (reealled )— Marvin Baker— direct __. Osborn Leon Dobbs— direct . Jerry T. Batts— ~~ direct. Rulings on motions for judgments of acquittal Motion for election and ruling thereon Motion for ‘mistrial and denial thereof Court's statement to jury Charge to jury ._. Colloquy between Court and counsel Further:charge to jury . wom Motion for new trial and denial thereof J Original Print a 727 85 -756 108 806 132 813 137 849° 158 851 159 970 230 980 231 1017 244 1076 260 1104 267 1178 9-277 1278 278 1317 . 1329 288 1346 291 1384 296 1385 296 _ 1386 ~ 297- . 1389 299 1395 302 1416 315 1423-319 1433 wo INDEX ———e : ; hae vonetr Original Print Record ‘from the United States District Court for _ the Eastern District -of Virginia—Continued ‘Transcript of trial proceedings—Continyed \ Verdict fale 1438 329 Colloquy between Court and counsel 143331 - Sentences ~ 1453 336 ‘Proceedings in the United States Court of Appeals —— for the Fourth h Cirenit — : —Opinion, per curiam 1456 338 Opinion of Sobeloff, C.J., concurring in “part and dissenting in part - OLD) STE a Ao 1465 - 345 i 3 1473, 351 Order staying mandate : 1474, 352 Clerk’s.certificate (omitted in printing) ; 1475 352. Order extending time to file poe fee writ of : certiorari —. as cooeetecnee sag 1476 353 Order allowing certiorari = _ Riinnckicn: a ae e {fol. 2] [File endorsement omitted] IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA- a NORFOLK DIVISION | Cr. 11-696 _ Unrrep States or Amenica, - " Vv. ’ Mike Mimanovicn, Vircinia Mrianovicn, Bensamin THomas GueErRiert. : Ixpictment—Filed July 16, 1958 July 1958 Term—-At Newport News, Va. The Grand Jury Charges: | Asean eh That. Mike Milanovich, Virginia Milanovich and Ben- jamin Thomas Guerrieri, heretofore, to-wit, on or about the 17th day of May, 1958, at the. United States Naval Air: Station, Norfolk, Virginia, in the Eastern District of Vir- ginia and within the jurisdiction of this Court, did unlaw: fully steal or purloin certain things of value of the United States Navy Department, a. Départment and Agency of the ‘ United States; to-wit, $23,627.64 in lawful currency of the - United States, a further description of said property’ being unknown, said property being the property of the United States Navy Department, as aforesaid. (Title 18, Section . 641,U.S.C.A) | : . ar Second Count The Grand Jury Further Charges: 7 ‘That Mike Milanovich, Virginia Milanovich and Ben- jamin Thomas Guerrieri, heretofore, to-wit, on or about the 2nd day of June, 1958, at the United States Naval Amphibious Base, Little Creek, Virginia, in the District and ‘jurisdiction aforesaid, did unlawfully steal or purloin certain things’ of value of the United States Navy Depart- ment, a» Department and Agency of the United States; - ae ‘ee ‘ to-wit, $14, 788. 78 in lawful currency of the United’ States, a further description of said property being unknown, said property being the property of the United’ States Navy Department, as aforesaid. — 18, Section 641, U. S.° tates Navy, and Donald Day, Chief Warrant — “United States Navy. : ; / Count 3, Gesstion 1 - The defendants received the money sometime between the late evening hours of May 16th and the early morning = ~ hours or ” of May 17, 1958. _ Count 3, Question 2 ' Clayton Thomas Grimmer; Benjamin Guerrieri. Count 4, Question 1 The time that defendants received or took constructive or actual control of the money is not known, howeve?, part of the money stolen from the Amphibious Base was ac- quired physically by Virginia Milanovich and others on or about the 17th or 18th day of June 1958. : _ Count 4, Question 2 Clayton Thomas Grimmer; Benjamin Guerrieri; Christ Sofocleous. . ata" | _L.S. Parsons, Jr., United States Attorney. Certificate of Service (omitted in printing). [fol.63] [File endorsement omitted] Ix ‘THe Usrtep States District Court For THE Eastern District or Vircinia Norrotk Divisos —- No. Cr. 11-696 - Unrrep States or AMERICA, . ae Mike Mitanovica. 2 ~ Juvomexr axp Commitment—December 30, 1958 _ On this 30th day of December, 1958 came the attorney , for the government and the defendant appeared in person - and* by counsel. nf . | It Is Adjudged that the defendant has been convicted © upon his plea of? Not Guilty and a verdict of Guilty on Count 2 g Not Guilty on Counts I and 3 of the offense of — of the bill of particulars, request for the bill of particulars. Mr. Koutoulakos: Your Honor, it seems to me before we pass that, very frankly, the Government does not know which Way they are going.. . Mr. Parsons: We do hot? a = Mr. Koutoylakos:- No; I do not think you do. ‘You have a count. of stéaling and you have a count of receiving. They are two distinct’ counts. If they stole, they did not receive, and if they stole, they cannot receive. oy The Court: The Court will overrule you on that. Mr. Koutoulakos: I take an exception. The Court: I have had that up many times and that is the usual procedure, as a matter of fact, and it is the only safe procedure for the Government to proceed under, to ; putin a-count of theft and a count of receiving and conceal- . ing, because— Mr. Koutoulakos: I agree with your Honor. : The Court: —their proof may fall short on one, which would result perhaps, in a. directed verdict in favor of [fol. 69] one of these defendants as to, let us say, the theft charges and leave it solely to the receiving and concealing. Mr. Koutoulakos: But they could never be convicted of both, is the point. I make. . a The Court: Whether they can be ronvicted is another matter. I do not know whether they can be convicted of . anything. I do not have that before me at this time. Now, as to item 2 in the request for bill of particulars 4s to Counts I and-II, I understand the United States Attorney will furnish to defendants’ counsel a statement as to the type of money stolen, that ‘is, currency or coin or both, Mr. Parsons: | actually believe in one of these counts I can give you a specific breakdown almost as to currency and coin, but in one of them I ean give you a breakdown as to coin but only generally as to currency. I can give you that. That is no problem. : Mr. Davis: Were checks-involved ? 16 ' Mr. Parsons: When you say “money,” I do not construe that to be checks. I do not. recall offhand any checks. . © Mr. Koutoulakos:. He is not charged--the indictment precluded checks. \ Mr. Parsons: -I know. . _ Mr. Koutoulakos: Just money. _ Mr. Parsons: Just money. | [fol. 70¥ The Court: As to item 3 in Counts L and II, which is “The. manner in which Mike Milanovich and Vir- ginia Milanovich stoie the money alleged.” Mr. Parsons: Strictly evidence, your Honor. , _ The Court: The Court holds that that information is not proper on a bill of particulars a dych 7 Mr. Koutoulakos: Take an exceptign The Court: As to item 4 in Counts I and II, which reads -as follows: “Specifically, what part did each of the defen- dants, Mike and Virginia Milanovich, = in the alleged theft.” Mr. Koutoulakos: I think your Honor rained that earlier, if you recall, about the aiding and abetting, and so forth. > ‘ The Court: If that is what you want, that is one thing. ‘However, item 4 is identical with item 3, which the Court has ruled’is a matter of evidence, unless you desire to know — _ whether the Government contends that these parties were - aiders and abettors or were principals. Mr. Koutoulakos: That is wey right. That i is what :: had in-mind. : Mr. Parsons: Again, you are going to get into a question of semantics, and I do not want the Government to be bound as to what. the definition of the word “aider” and “abettor” is as opposed to the word “principal.” {fol.71] Mr. Koutoulakos: It ip legal definition, your Honor. ‘Mr. Parsons: They are specifically charged as principals in these crimes. The proof: of aiding and abetting—the oof is something else agam. But under the law, as far the indictment goes, it makes no difference because they re principals even if they are aiders and abettors._ The Court:, Strictly speaking, they could be both. Mr. Parsons: That is correct, your Honor. 17 _ The Court: - But what these defendants, I think, would like “to know indirectly, since you object to giving it di- rectly, I anticipate, is whether or not the Government con- tends that either Mike or Virginia Milanovich were actually | present at the Air Station or at the Little Creek Am- phibious Base where these alleged thefts to&k place. Now; I anticipate— Bers Mr. Parsons: Do they want to know whether they were actualty, physically in the building or on the premises of the Naval Amphibious Base? ' aieestibe The Court: No. I think they want.to knew whether they were in the general area of those premises. In other words, a person could drive an automobile, for example, to pro- vide means of getting to the Air Station’or getting to Little '" Creek Amphibious Base and, perhaps, also a means of taking away the individuals who participated in the actual (fol. 72] theft at-the building. »That person, if he drove an automobile, would be a principal. Mr. Koutoulakos: They are present, aiding and abetting. | The Court: On the other hand; if a person remained in a home and never went near the Air Station or Little Creek AmphPhious: Base, but with knowledge of the fact merely participated, that person, I think, would be then strictly an aider and an ‘abettor. i Mr. Koutoulakos: Accessory before or after. _. Mr. Davis: That is what we want to know. \ Off the record. Wiscussion off the record.) The Court: As to item 4 in Counts I and II, as requested by the, motion. for a bill of particulars,’ the Court rules that the United States Attorney shall atate in general terms . whether ae Milanovich or Virginia Milanovich,\or both, played the*part of a principal in that they, or either of thent, were in the general vicinity of the Naval Air Station _ or the Little Creek Amphibious Base at the time of the al- leged thefts in question, or whether the said Mike Milano- vich or Virginia Milanovich, or both, did not go-near the premises of the Naval Air Station or the Little Creek. Am- phibious Base at thé time of the alleged thefts in question. (fol. 73] In so doing, the United States Attorney will not . . » oy Sf 18 have to specifically state waa it is contended that Mike - Milanovich or Vi irginia Milanovich, or either of them, were, - in fact, principals or, in fact, aiders and abettors, but this will give Sufficient information so.that the defense counsel will know whether there will be any contention that these defendants, or either of them, were in the general locality at the time of the commission of the alleged crimes. Mr. Koutoulakos: I think number 5, your Honor, has: already been given to us, so I do not see any’ need for it. The other people are these three. Mr. Parsons: The other three and I want it to be alas | that there is a possibility on this Millie Gauger—I cannot tell you now because she has not been indicted, and’ my main objection to this particular thing would be simply this: We may be in a positidn, if we have to put it:down ‘right, we may have to put her name in there and we will put ourselves in an awkward position and set ourselves up for a possible suit. aN, ; Mr. Koutoulakos: We withdraw that, your. Honor. The Court: Item 5 under Counts I and II of the bill of _ particulars has been withdrawh at the roquent of defense ’ counsel. (Discussion off the record. ) {fol. 74] The Court: Under item 6 in Counts I and II, this -information has been withdrawn in view of the Court’s prior, ruling with Reapers to item 4,» Off the record. * ~ Mae - (Discussion off the record.) The Court: As to item 7 under Counts I and II of the request for a bill of particulars, the United States Attorney _has indicated that he will furnish - in general terms the means of entry, that is, whether it was a break in or whether entry was procured by the use of a key or in,some other general manner, and the United States Attorney shall fyr- ther state from what part of the particular premises the money was stolen, namely, was it stolen from a safe or a cabinet and in general terms where that particular safe or cabinet may have been located. 19 __Mr. Parsons: No objection to that, yo Honor. _The Court: And‘that information, if furnished, is suffi- cient, according to counsel for defendant. All right, off the record. : | / (Discussion off. the record.) The Court: As to item 8 in Counts I and II of the re- quest for a bill of particulars, neither counsel is prepared to advise the Court with respect to the law and, accordingly, | [fol. 75] the ruling thereon is deferred. Defense counsel have indicated that they would be willing to-have the names and last known, addresses of such persons who were in- terviewed: during the course of the ‘investigation with the understanding that the United States Attorney would not be bound to produce these witnesses, and if not produced, that no comment would be made with respect to the fact that their names and addresses had been’ incladed in the ° bill of. particulars, but as the Court is not advised with respect to the applicable law, the Court will defer ruling — thereoh. | . ; 7 » Counsel will give the: Court the authorities with respect - thereto within five days from this date, and the Court will then rule we ; (Discussion off the record.) . san S The Court: ‘As to item '9 under Counts I and II of the request for a bill of particulars, the Uniied States Attorney has advised that he will: give the name of ,the person or persons who may have been in charge. of the money, that .” is, charged with the responsibility of the money as such, but this does not suggest that this individual was the one who counted the money or that this individual was the one who: last had actual possession of the money prior to the. alleged theft. . All right, let’s go off the record, (Discussion off the record.) . (fol.76] The Court: As to item No. 2 in Counts IIT and IV of the bill. of particulars, the United States Attorney shall state the name of the person or persons from whom. | it is contended that these defendants, Mike Milanovich and ' Virginia Milanovich, either actually or constructively re-’ U 3 ' ” 20 ceived the alleged stolen mone} question, iit. it shall not be necessary to specifically sta any physical transfer - - of the money from any particular individual to either - particular defendant. — Off the record. rt Ctnennial off the record. )- The Court: With respect to item No-@in Counts IIT and IV, under the motion for a requested’ bill of particulars, the Court. is of the opinion that this inquiry can be suffi- ciently answered unucr item No. 2, if the United States Attorney will designate which particular defendant may - have been involved. in the alleged actual or constructive receipt of the alleged stolen money, or if both particular defendants were involved the Uniftd States Attorney Phall so state. As to item’No. 4 in Counts IIT and IV of “the request sa for. a bill of particulars, the Court is of the opinion that this is a matter of evidence and argument and the United -States Attorney is not required to particularize in what manner the money, if received, was divided between thé [fol. 77] various parties participating. _ Mr. Koutoulakos: Take an exception to that. The Court: Off the record. . i ‘ (Discussion off the record.) The Court: As to item No. 5 under Counts III and IV of the motion for a bill of particulars, of course, it is funda- ‘ mental that the Government must prove that the alleged act occurred within the jurisdictional limits of the Eastern District of Virginia, but other than. that, the Court is of the opinion that the United States Attorney is not. re- .. quired to state at what particular place the money was — aljegedly received by the defendants and it is assumed, .of _ course, that it will not be necessary for him to further allege .that the money was feceived within the Eastern .. District of Virginia as that is alleged in the indictment . and constitutes a fundamental] part of the proof. Off the record. (Discussion off the record. ) . , -21 The Court: An off the record discussion was had with’ respect to the defendant's motion for discévery and in- spection, whieh motiyn was this day filed. - The Court has directed counsel to submit certain au-, thorities within five days from this date in order that the’ (fol. 78] Court may rule upon the same. _ -@ Is there any request for oral argument on that motion?, Mr. Koutoulakos: sf do not believe it is necessary. Mr. Parsons: I do not believe it is necessary. O The Court: Oral argument is waived. ~ (fol. 1] . ? In THE Untrep States District Court For tHe Eastexn District or Vircinia NorFro.tk Drvision Criminal No, 11-696 Unitep States or AMEnrica, .e v.° ° Mrke Mitanovicn, Vrrcrta Mmanovicn, BexsaMin G THomas GUERRIERI, Defendants. “Transcript of Trial Proceedings » ie Newport News, Virginia December 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, as 6, 8, 9 & 30, 1958 Befote Honorable Walter E. Hoffman,. United States District Judge, and a jury. a eae [fol. 2] APPEARANCES? ‘ , L. S. Parsons, Jr., Esq., United States Attorney, For the United States of America. | J. Hubbard Davis, Esq., Attorney for Defendants Mike ‘& Virginia Milanovich, Bank of Commerce Building, Nor- folk, Virginia: | Varoutsos & Koutoulakos, Esqs., Attorneyg for Defen- dants Mike & Virginia Milanovich, 2054 N®. Fourteenth : + / | | - Street, Arlington, Virginia, Bx: Paul G. Varoutsos, Esq, . of Counsel, and Louis Koutoulakos, Esq., of. Counsel. : Defendants In Propria Persona. ~ [fol. 3) : a . . CoLLoquy Between Court anp CouNsEL .- December 1, 19358 - The Clerk: Any ane motions?. Criminal No. 11-696, United States against Mike: Milanovich,’ Virginj Milanovich and Benjamin Thomas. Guerrieri. Is the Gov- ‘ernment ready in that, case? Mr. Parsons: . The ernment is ready, your Honor. The Clerk: Is the defense ready in that case? Mr. Koutoulakos: .The defense is ready. Mr. Parsons: If your Honor please, I believe there is one preliminary matter that is uncontested. It is the ar- - raignment of Millie Gauger, your Honor. -TAfter the arraignment of the defendant, Millie Gauger, ~ in Criminal No: 11-764, the trial of the .case of Criminal No. 11-696 thereupon continued.) Mr. ‘Koutoulakos: Could I approach the Bench? Mr. Parsons. °. {fol.4] Mr. Parsons: Yes. . _ (Thereupon, counsel approached the Bench.) (The jury was impaneled and sworn.) The Court: Gentlemen, are you ready to — Mr. Koutoulakos : We are, your Honor, haw I would like to excuse the jury. I want to address the Court. The Court: All right. The lady’s name is Mrs. Knight; is that correct? All right, if you will step out for just a second. : (The jury retired to the jury room at tn 06 a.m.) . Mr. Koutoulakos: Your Honor, first,-I would like to . have the’ witnesses sworn and excluded and then I would like to make a motion for the Government to elect whether or not they are proceeding on larceny or receiving. I feel — they are inconsistent crimes and I feel they can suffer only . an | 23 one conviction and I think the Government should take the position what case they are going to try, whether it is the __ lareeny: charge or receiving charge. The Court: I will.grant your motion to exclude the wit- nesses. We swear the witnesses he separately. I will deny the metion as to requiring thioversnaess to elect - as to whether they are going to proceed on the larceny (fol. 5) charge or the receiving and concealing. Mr. Koutoulakos: “I: take ane exception te that, your Honor. ; ; » Mr. Parsons: The Government would like to retain in the courtroom Mr. Hugh J. Smith as the Government's rep- resentative, . . e The Court: Mr. Smith may be designated as ihe Govern- ment’s representative tg remain in the courtroom. Of course, the defendants may remain and will remain. As to the other witnesses in the case, with the exception of the witness who was arraigned here today, Millie Gauger, her ~ counsel has stated that he will not permit her to testify any more than, perhaps, to give, her name and under those circumstances, if she cares-to remain in the courtroom, [would grant her that permission. , Mr. Parsons: No objection on the part of the Govern. ment, your Honor. jo$, Mr. Koutoulakos: No objection on our part. ‘The Marshal: All witnesses in thi8 casescome this way, please. . ‘ ; (The witnesses ‘were excluded from ‘the courtroom.) Mr. Koutoulakos: Your Honor, inasmuch as the Gov- erninent—and they, are entitled to it—to have a repre- * {fol. 6] sentative, we would like to have our investigator sit with us. ae The Court: Motion denied. You have your defendants and they are your representatives. ; Mr. Koutoulakos: Now, your Honor, Mr. Parsons has— and’ we have no objection—a request to have the witnesses ’ Sworn. to be excused’ until they are subject to call. Cer- tainly, we do not object to that. : Mr. Parsons: No. I have one witness who is in school, your Honor, and I want him to stay in school until the time © . By Mr. Parsons: Q. Do you find there a nameplate of any kind, sir? A. Yes, sir. Here is a nameplate found near the safe: It, contains the name “Sargent & Greenleaf Company, conad ester, New York, U.S. A.” Mr. Parsons: I would like to offer this as Governatent’s Exhibit No. 20. The Court: The nameplate will be marked Government’s Exhibit No. 20. (The nameplate found: at the Little Ceti Amphibious Base was marked and received in ev vidence as Government's Exhibit No. 20.) . [fol. 54] | By Mr. Parsons: Q. Do you have cash boxes, sir? A. If it is all right with the Clerk, we probably could heave this right in here. Iti is quite bulky.’ It is not— od 31 ‘The Court: I think it is a fair.statement, the furthest you keep those things away from the Clerk, the better off. Mr. Koutoulakos: Your Honor, we do not object to it as beiti; one exhibit. -. The Court: All right. - By Mr. Parsons: * eter | Q. I wonder if you could identify, sir, where they were found and approximately in what area! ‘ 2 A. These are cash boxes that were found in front of it and alongside, on the table, near the safe, at the time that we entered the cashier’s office. ' oo Mr. Parsons: Exhibit No.—- : The Clerk: 21.5 | : ate The Court: Exhibit No. 21: And, Mr. Steffen, can you © count those cash boxes there— The Witness: Yes, sir. . The Court: —readily, without too much difficulty. If it (fol..55) is too difficult, do not bother. I just wanted to get it for the record, how many there were. (The cash boxes found at the Little Creek Amphibious Base were marked and received in evidence as Government’s Exhibit No. 21:) os t a N) By Mr. Parsons: . - Q. I will ask you and see if you can locate a wrecking bar twenty-seven inches long?” . : The Court: We are still dealing with Little Creek? ™~ Mr. Parsons: Little Creek Amphibious Base; yes. By Mr. Parsons: . Q. I wonder if you could identify. wherecthat was found! _\. This wrecking bar was found in the cashier's office near the safe at Little Creek. — a Mr. Parsons: Government's Exhibit No. 22. The Court: Let it be marked. Mr. Parsons: All right, sir. 32 (The wrecking bar found at the Little Creek Amphibious Base was marked and received i in evidence as Government's [fol."56] Exhibit No..22.) By Mr. Parsons: Q. Do you find a flexible spout, sirt All right, sir. Where was that spout found f. ‘ A. This funnel, with a flexible spout, was found just outside the door to the cashier’s office, where the safe had. been breken into at Little Creek. Mr. Parsons: Government’s Exhibit No— The Court: Let it be marked: ‘Governiiidst's Exhibit - No. 23. _Mr. Parsons: "23, all right’ sir. (The funnel with the flexible spout found at the little Creek Amphibious Base was marked and received in evi- © dence as Government's Exhibit No. 23.) oe ‘ ° By Mr. Parsens: Q. Mr. Steffen, did yon also recover a ‘metal suite A. Yes: “This, metal suitease was found ‘behind the door that opened into the cashiér’s office at. Little Creek, which would place it directly in‘front of the safe which had been broken into. “e -; . . - @ . * 7 Ae {fol 72} - Mr. Parsons: 1 would like. to call Mr. Thompson, I believe. The Court: I understodd, with respect to- Mr. Steffen, gentlemen, that you were putting him on only at this time to identify these exhibits? ee Patsons: That is correct, sir,.and he will be recalled for another purpose. - The Court: He will be recalled. _ Mr. Parsons: And Mr. Steffen should remain out of the courtroom. Mr. Thompson, he is with the Motor Vehicle Division. ; 33 fr ; | / {fol.73] Rosert E. Tuompson, called as a witness by and on behalf of the Government, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: a Mr, Koutoulakos: Now, your Honor, at this_point, I might make this observation to the Court. Of course, I realize that it is difficult to control this, but we are request- ing the Court, in vour discretion, whatever you can do, to keep these witnesses, who have testified, from mingling - with other witnesses, sometimes not deliberately, but maybe unegnsciously, something that has been said that has been testifiedtoand— | ~The Court: Mr. Koutoulakos, I do not think the Court could possibly police such a situation as that; and, after _all, people generally find out what is testified to in a general way in almost all cases. The fine points of the questioning are the matters tha, of course, are relevant and the main purpose for separating witnesses, but there is not much that I can do about the situation. After all, I think you have a right and your associates have a right to talk to witnesses. (fol. 74] Mr. Parsons has a right to talk to witnesses. No one has the right to persuade a witness, of course. . Mr. Koutoulakos: That is right. That is the point I was making. ? The Court: But I think you have a perfect right to talk to _ witnesses. Despite my size, I am still only one man and I cannot be in more than one place at one time and I do not _ think there is much that I can do about it. Me Mr. Koutoulakos: All right, sir. You understand the problem: — eons yt Direct examination. By Mr. Parsons‘ Q. Mr. Thompson, I believe you are here in. reply to a subpoena to Mr. Lamb, the Commissiong? of the Division of Motor Vehicles; is that correct? _ A, Yes, Lam. ~ e | Q. I wonder if you would state your name and your | Qeeupation, sir? _A.. Robert E. Thompson. I am’supervisor of the Division of Motor Vehicles, Eastern District of Virginia. : & 34 ‘ @. “A subpoena duces tecum was issued to Mr. Lamb to (fol. 75)\bring with him the registration of and make and vear of attomobile bearing 1958 Virginia license. 215-815, and the naine and address of the listed owner of the said’ ‘automobile. Did you bring such a document, sir? ; A. Yes, sir, I did. Q. I wonder if I might— A. The original and a plotostatie copy. Vr. Koutowlakos: Your Hondr;we make the samecpbiser- vation—subject to the Connection, we emake the same objec- . - tion in connection with the relevancy. T-asgume it will be ~ connected up somehow. ~~ ™, The Court: I assume there will be some connecting: links, Mr. Koutoulakos. Thus far, I am not —T on this exhibit. There is nothing to connect—: Mr. Parsons: — to connection, your ‘Honor, of course, always. The Court: Yes. : Mr. Parsons: To save ‘time only for the purpose of those’ people coming.on who produce records subject to— a The Court: Yes, I think. that is reasonable, and I will tell the jury, at this time, that in connection with these fol. 76] tecords and exhibits, and so forth, that witnesses . have to come here for some distances at some time, and it is a great inconvenience to keep them in order and, perhaps, the evidence is being introduced somewhat a tittle bit out . of order for the pape of enabling these witnesses to leave. . Mr. Keuiniiebes: What was the number that you said you wanted? ° “Mr. Parsons: The license number is 218-215. The Court: 215? : ens * ~ Mr. Parsons: 218-815 is the number I gave. The Court: 218-815? Mr. Parsons: The rect number is.218-815. The Court: That is what you intended to ask the witness! _ Mr. Parsons: That is what I thought I asked; 218-815. (The reporter read back the last question. ) The Court: The court reporter disagrees with you, and (fol. 77] ‘so do I; so it is your mistake i in that case and you are overruled. : at ‘ : 35 Mr. Parsons: That is the only number I am asking about.’ 1 would like to offer this as Governient’ s exhibit No. 35, I believe. The Court: ae ee nt’s Exhibit No. 35. (The application for title and certific ate of title of a, 1956 Oldsmobile was marked and, ree eive din evidence as Gov ern- ment’s Exhibit No. 35.) By Mr. Parsons: Q. “Mr. -Phompson, I wonde r if you would state—and you have, I believe, the originals in your possession at this time —the name and address of the listed owner of the automo- bile bearing License No, 218- 815, Virginia? A. 218-815, it is Mike Milanovieh, 8032 W ébb Court, Nor- . folk, Virginia. Q. What make and model car is ensta described? A. It is a 1956 Oldsmobile, four-door sedan, motor num- ber 569W3062.. - . Mr. Parsons: Thank you very much, sir. “Answer any questions they might have. * * a Pa eee ee : 2 [fol. 283] Mr. Parsons: I would like to eall Mr. Herman Drummond. . , . . ~ 2 7 ry HEran F. Drummonp, called as a witness S by and on° behalf of the Government, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: Direct examinatijon. ‘ By. Mr. Parsons: ) ~ Q. Mr. Drummond, state your name and your oecupation, sir. _ A. Herman F. Drummond, Jr., Special Agent, Federal ‘Bureau of Investigation. -Q.. Mr. Drummond, did you participate in. the investiga: (fol. 284] tion of certain allegations made against Virginia Milanovich and Mike Milanovich? : A. did. . _ - Oo - - the fingerprints of Mike Milanovich? . - Government Exhibit No. 57. 36 ‘ , se s Q. i. the course of that investigation, did you have occa- sion to’contact Mike Milanov ich? A. I did. Q. Q. In the course of that investigation, did you also take A. I did. Q. Do you have such a fingerprint card with you, sir? A. Yes, sir. ' Q. Were these fingerprints taken by you a prnenny, Mr. . Drummond? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is Mike Milanovich here in this courtroom? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where is he? A. Sitting: over on ‘the: left- hand side of the tee, in back/of counsel. + Q. Is he thé individual from whom you took these fifiger- prints? A. Xes, sir. Mr. Parsons: The Goverriment would kke to offer this as " ~ -|fol. 285) Mr. Koutoulakos: Your Honor, biter it is of- fered, I would like to know the circumstances, and so forth. I am sure they just did not invite limi in and have a little. drink together and say, “Give me your fingerprints.” I would like to know what it is about. | The Clerk: I think this is 55. The.Court: 57. I will tell the jury that anyone arreste “l for a crime is ordinarily fingerprinted | in the ordinary course of investigation. a Mr. Koutoulakos: I agree with tliat, but if he establishes 1 the ae § arrested, | agree with your Honor, a hundred percent. Mr. Parsons: I will ask the question. By Mr. Parsons: Q. When were these fingerprints taken, Mr. Drummond? A. After the arrest of Mike Milanovich. _. Q. What date was he arrested on, Mr. Drummond! A. June 19th. Mr. Koutoulakos: Good enough, your Honor. 37. Mr. Parsons: I would like to reoffer it in evidenge. (fol. 286] The Court: Let the fingerprint card be ad- mitted as Gov ernment’ s Exhibit No. 57. (The fingerprint card of Mike Milanov ich“was received | and marked in evidence as Government’s Exhibit No. 57.) Mr. Parsons: If your Honor please, I anticipate that I ~ will call Mr. Druminond- back at a later time for other ' evidence, but after cross-examination on this particular , point, I would like to ask him to return back out in the hall, sir. The Court: Do you wish to question him any further dA this? Mr. Koutoulakos: Not at this time, your Honor. The Court: I understand you want Mr. Drummond to | remain? Mr. Parsons: Yes, sir. — : ° (fol. 287) Mr. Parsons: I — like to call Mr. Francis M. ae Francis M. Leap.ey, called as a witness by and-on behalt of the Government, having been dyly. sworn, testified as follows: - Direct examination, - By Mr. Parsons; Q. Mr. Leapley, I oie if you would state your full . name and your addréss. (A. Francis M. Leapley. + live in Hy attsville, Mary land. Q. By whom are you employed? A. By the Federal Bureau of Inv estigation. Q. What is your capacity there, sir? A- Lam titled as a fingerprint examiner. Q. Where are your official headquarters? A. nW ashington, D. C. Q. How long have you been so employed, sir? A. About fourteen years and six months. . | Q. Have you ever appeared to testify as a fingerprint expert in court before? A. Yes, sir, I have. pa \ he ! | \ Q. What are your official dutie&? ‘A. Well, my main duties consist of receiving evidence, f fol. 288] processing the evidence for latent \impressions, fingerprints, palmprints, footprints, photographing the im- pressions, comparing them with inked impressions, other latent impressions, setting férth the findings \n a report -,and, when called upon, presenting the findings th tue make in court. . Q: All right, sir. f wonder if you would exp in to the jury what a latent printjis? - , : palm—it could be of a foot—that i is made by the: tion or sweat that is containe don the finger and on an shgect © Now, most® latent impressions are ‘invisible.’ Ih other words, you cannot see them,with the ange eve, but with the use of "ders—fingerprint powders, we call but with chemicals, we can bring them up, photograph! them, compare them with other latent impressions, inked impres- sions, or the like. - Q. I'wonder if you would. tell ‘the jury what an ‘inked -fingerprint is? A. Well, an inked fingerprint is a fingerprint that i is ob- . - tained by placing an inked film imprint on the underside of the finger. The ink. adheres to the raised portions of’ the : fingers, the so-called ridges. When this is placed on an [fol. 289] oblique on a piece of paper, it forms an outline of the ridges of the fingers. That is exactly what an inked fingerprint is. : 0: _Q. All right, sir. I hand you Government’s Exhibit No. 23, sir. I-ask you, sir, have you ever examined that object before, sir? . yA A. Yes,sir,Ihave. ~°. Q. From where did you receive that object, sir? ~@ 3 . I received it in my office in W ey and T proc- 8 it on the 11th of June of this year. -Q. -What is your examination or did‘you examine it, sir? [I - A. I examined it for latent impressions, and through the use of fingerprint powders, 1 developed one latent finger- print on the inside of the funnel here (indicating). Q. Did you prepare a tthe of that print? A. Yes, I did.’ "3 "m ©. § -_- Low | s Vv wow : 39 The Court; That exhibit, for the purpose of the record, _ is What has’ been referred to as a funnel with a flexible spout; is that correct?. \ _ * By Mr. Parsons: ie % Q. I hand you Government Exhibit No. 57, Mr. Léapley. Have you eyamined that exhibit, sir? {fol. 290] A. Yes, sir, T have.’ This was received in our ‘section on the 24th—I handled it actually on the 24th of June 1958. ~ . Q. Did you eompare the fingerprifit on the Government Exhibit with the fingerprints on the fipgerprint card—that is, Government Exhibif No. 23? Er Se A. Yes, sir, I did. ©. ° es . Q. What were the results of your comparison? . _. A. Well, I found that the.latent-impression developed on the mside of the flexible spout funnel here and the finger impression—the inked impression appearing in the No. 7 _ fingerblock of this fingerprint card, which contains the name - Mike Milanovich which was taken on thé 19th of ‘June, were made by one and the same person. ; ‘Q. All right, sir. Now, is it possible, Mr. Leapley, in your opinion, for two persons to‘have the same fingerprint? A. In my opinion, sir, it is. not possible. - . , Q. Did you have enlargements made of these so that you can illustrate to the jury how you ¢ame to this conclusion? _. _ A. Yes, sir, I have. Your Honor, with vour permission, _ Tyould like to stand. . * * . * ; * .* (fol. 321] Mr. Parsons: I would like to eal] Conimander _ Jones, please. > - ak ~ Raymonp ALFRED Jones, called as:a witness by and on behalf of the Government, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: : ' Direct examination. By Mr. Parsons: o . . A. October 29, 1956. Q. All right, sir. Now, where were you stationed in June of.1958! Ss _ A. Little Creek, Virginia. . Q. I call your attention to June 2, 1958, and ask you what, if any, duties you had 6n that date? “A. I Was sentry on the main gate at that time. I was on ‘the watch from two o’clock in the afternoon till ten at night. - Q. I wonder if ¥ou would tell the jury whether or not you had any instructions’on that night, sir? _A. Yes, sir, I did. IT was instructed to stop any and every vehicle that came through and to be especially alert for a black Oldsmobile—a 1957 Oldsiuobile it was, black. — Q. All right, sir. The Court: This was on June 2nd? | Mr.-Parsons: Yes, sir. [fol. 402] The Witness: Yes, sir. By Mr. Pa rsons ; Q. And on that night did. you stop ‘any motor vehicles answering that description? , A. Yes, sir; it Was in the evening, about 4:30, five — that I stopped a black Oldsmobile. Q. I wonder‘if you would dese sig as well as you can, the type of ‘automobile it was? A. It was a hlack Oldsmobile, and I yor the lady driv- ing if it was a '57, and she said, no, it was.a 1956. Q.. All right, sir, & ahead. A. I remember the sticker nunber on it was N.A. s., CPO Sticker Nuniber 3525. ‘I remember that particularly because we were supposed: to look for number 3:26, and that re- sembled-it ‘so close that it stuck in-my head—this 3525. Q. Mr. Bruce, I wonder if you would describe how many people were in the car? P) e ‘BS ‘A. There were four people, two men and two women. Q. Was there anything else in the car?. - e ‘ ‘~« . . Direct examination. By Mr. Parsons: a 3 2 ; Q, Mr. Crowder, would you state your name and where you are presently stationed, sir. . : ° 7 " A. Well, my name is Lioner Owen Crowder, stationed at the Amphibious Base at Little Creek. The Court: Can you raise your voice, please, Mr. Crow- der, - 38 By Mr. Parsons: Q. And were you stationed there in June of this year, sir? A. Yes, I was. . zm ; Q. T call your attention to the late evening hours of June ’ 62 ; a “a : : » 1st, the early morning hours of June 2nd, one ask ‘you, sir, what your post of duty was? A. My post of duty was a sentry on outgoing traffic at ' Gates. | Q.. Did You notice any unusual activity during 3 your tour ‘of duty, and if ‘so, what time? A. Yes, I did—not very unusual, but—there wasn’t much ‘traffic that night, and there was a car that made a few extra trips through the. gate, you might say, and on U. S. 6 [fol. 414] Highway. — . ‘ Qi wonder if you would teil the jury what you observed : this car do, sirt?, : _ A. Well, I qbserved the car had come ‘Gueh. the gate. It.was in ‘the early hours of the morning—I don’t recall exactly what time it Was—but there were two women in ~ the ear, and after certain hours aboard the Base—I think it’s one o’clock—women guests are not allowed aboard the Base unless they dre accompanied by a male guest, and then I think it’s an officer only, and the other sentry had the . incoming traffic, and I called his notice to om. Q. Did they get on the Base? A. They did. - Q. Did you see this car or These people again that eve- ning? N Yes, I did. I:saw them come back out the gate and accompanied with acmale. Q: They hid a man with Gant ~~ * Yes, sk. * \Q. Did you see the car after that again? A. I.saw a car. I = not know whether it was exactly - * fhe same car or not, but it was like the car that I had passed through the gate. .[1t was on U.S, 60 going east. Q. Can you recognize or have you recognized none that was in that car since you have been here? . (fol. 415] A. No, I have not. Mr. Parsons: All right, thank you very much. Answer any questions counsel might have. Cross examination. ‘By M r. Koutoulakos : " Q. Just-a minute. Do I understand you to say that- in order to get in at that time he had to be an officer, whoever ‘ the man was?” ; A. To come aboard, ves. ; Q. To-come aboard, you mean on the Base? ° A. To go ashore, nobody has to be— Ba Q. Coming aboard, is that what they were doing? __ . Yes. oY 2g Q. And there had to be an officer with them in order to gain. admittance? A. Yes. | Q. That is a Navy officer? Ay Any officer, > a4 Q. You mean Army or Air Corps, but it had-to be an : officer? . ‘A. It had to be, but there was not— Q:. You say there had to be? ae A. Yes. ' * (fol. 416] . Mr. Koutouldkos: That is all. = The Court: I take it Mr. Crowder may be excused, gentle- men? Mr. Parsons: Yes, sir. Mr. Anderson will be the next witness, if your Honor please. Conxruvs R. Axbersox, called as a witness by and on behalf of the Government, having heen duly sworn, testified as follows: a, : Direct examination. . By Mr. Parsons: et . Q. Mr. Anderson, I wender if you would state your name, — sir, your occupation and where you are stationed. \ A. Cornelius R’ Anderson, Special Agent with the Fed-— eral Bureau of Investigation. aie : ~ ‘ >». >. ~ . . . . . % 64 . : Q. Mr. Anderson, did you participate in the investiga- tion that culminated in the charges against Virginia and Mike {filanovieh S . A, I did. Q. I call your attention, sir, to approximately June 19th, sir, and ask what, if any, investigation you made on that day? : [fol,417] A: On the morning of June 19th of this year at 8032 Webb Court, the home of Mike and Virginia Milano- vich, we conducted a search Se the premises. During the | course of the search I found, if the closet, directly opposite the dining room; a lady’s handbag which contained approxi- mately thirty-one pounds of silver. . By the Court: Q. May I inquire in advance, was the search conducted, Mr. Anderson, pursuant to a search warrant? A. Consent to search, your Honor. | Q. Consent to search? | A. Yes, sir. Ce ~ ; By Mr. Parsons: Q. All right, sir, go ahead. . A. As I was saying, in the lady’s handbag was found approximately thirty-one pounds of silver. Some of the ‘ silver was in wrappers bearing the National Bank of Com- merce stamp. , Q. I wonder if you can locate and identify the bag that you found there, sir? A. | can, That is the bag on the table (pointing). 6 | fol. 582] - Doxswa Grimmer, called as a witness by and on behalf. of the Government, t, having: been duly sworn, testi- fied as follows: QR Ss i i i 1 . - w Direct sieieaiien, By Mr. Parsons: Q. Mrs. Grimmer, I wonder if you would state your name _ and your present address, please. { fol. 533) A. Donna Grimmer, 535 North Lima Road. Q. The acoustics are bad in here. | wonder if you could speak just.a little louder. They also want to hear you. Mrs. Grimmer, | believe your husband is ‘Clayton Thomas Grim- mer; is that correct? A. Yes. of Q. And how long have you all been niarried, Mrs. Grim- mer? . A. Oh, about a year and a half. * — Q. And during that time was Mr. Grimmer arrested and did he plead guilty to certain criminal charges? A. Yes. . | 3 Q. All right. Now, Mrs. Grimmer, after his arrest—and - Teall your attention to—ihe exact time, I do not know—but do you recall meeting with a man named Ben Guerrieri?: A. Yes. Q. Do you recall the place that you all met? A. Yes. ‘ Q. What was the city that you met him in? A. That I met Ben Guerriezi?. Q. Yes. A. I met him in— ? . “a . Mr. Davis: If your Honor please, we cannot hear the witness. The Court: No. Pleak¢ ‘raise | yoice, if you will. [ fol. 534] Lean ne a little bit and speak just as loud as you can. A. You say, where did I meet Ben Guerrieri! “ 66 . _ By Mr. Parsons: ; Q. Yes. A, I met him in Youngstown. Q. All right. Now, sometime after your husband was ' arrested did Mr. Gue rrieri come by and pick } you up at ad time? ° | |: Q. What was the occasion of him picking you up. Mrs. * Grimmer? A. It was supposed to be a meeting in Cleveland. Q. A meeting of whom? A. Milanoviches and Ben and myself. Q. All right. Now, w here did he pick | you up, Mrs. Grimmer? On Martin Street. } Where did you proceed! That was in Y oungstownt In Youngstown. Where did you proceed to from there? . To Cleveland. Where did yot go in Cleveland? To Ann’s house. | Do you know her full name? . No, I don’t. (fol. 535] -Q. And who was present at the bones at et time Mrs. Grimmer? — ; _It was Ann, Steve, Ben— - Steve Milanavich? ws Yes. . And who else? . Bennie. . That is Bennie Guerrieri? Myself. . Yourself? Myself and Millie. Millie? . . Yes. Millie Gauger? I believe that’s her name. Was anyone else present? PePererer” DrOroreopororerk | 7 " 67 A. AndBarbara. _ Q. And whois Barbarat- _A.- She is my girl friend.——— Q. Are those all of the people that were present? A. That's all the people that were presemt, except Ann’s daughter, and she was there half the tinie, running in and out. ae: Q. If I may recap, it was you and Ben Guerrieri? A. Right. . — | fol. 536] Q. Steve Milanovich? A. Right. | . : Q. “Big Ann”? | zs A: Yea. cae Q. And Barbara, and somewhere in the house there was -agirl. Are those all of the people that were there? . A. That’s all that were there. i." Q. All right. What transpired at that meeting? A. It was supposed to:be a meeting. I don’t know what it was all about myself. It was talking abdut the— Mr. Koutoulakos: Your Honor, I do not mind her testi- fying to the threat, but any other hearsay I object to. I think the threat should be explained, if there was one, and the jury can decide whether there was one or wasn’t one, ‘but as to any other hearsay, I am going to object. ——————— a By Mr: Parsons: > , Q. What happened at fat meeting? The Court: Wait a minute now, Mr. Parsons. Of course, what initially prompted this testimony that’ would be brought in by this witness would be the referred to “state- ment™ of Grimmer signed on November Sth, which was | brought into evidence by the defendant, but would that * |fol. 537) not be hearsay— |. ° a Mr. Parsons: Well— ~~ °, The Court: —other than— ; Mr. Parsons: If your Honor please, | was going to ask her one more question. . a The Court: I know—you asked her what happened at the.meeting, and that covers a multitude of sins, - Q You tried to ll who wasthere? — . ¢ ts 68 Mr. Parsons: That . is exactly right, but this witnéss is —not ee on the stand what’ I was itiformed she would ‘state. ° Mr. Kisteulibes : That is exactly right. The Court: Wait a minute.,I do not care. What differ- ence does it make? I am interested now in whether or not the evidence—I think she can testify to any @ceed threat, ! if any, that may have been made. Mr. Parsons: I w ould like to ask her one quéation, your Honor. ae ee ; a By Mr. Parsons: Q. Was Virginia Milanovich at that meeting? A. Yes. . ° Mr. ee ee Now, your: Honor, he hes impeached: [ fol. 538] his own witness. ‘She said the only people there —I objeet to that. ~. ° -- The Court: I know she said that, and that is for the jury to determine. By the Court: - . ase, (). Why didn’t yoy say Virginia Milanovich was prenent when Mr. Parsons asked you before? os : A. I said “Lee”. ; pe Q. Whatisthat? . : A. Well, I tried to tel] him. Mr. Davis: We cannot-— . By the Court: A. Who exactly: yas there. Q: Well, you did not mention the name Virginia Milan. ovich. Why ‘didn’t you?” A. She was there. es Q. I know she was there, so you say, but you did not say so before. Now, what we want is the. truth. A. Lam a the truth. | The Court: ion if we do not on the truth, we wilf hold you here’ afterwards. Now, from now on, let's have all the facts, and that is all we want. By Mr. Parsons: maar ie 2 * Did you talk with “Virginia. Milanoyjelr at that, meet- ing, Mrs. Grimmer? ; . [fol. 539] - A. Yes. ‘ Q. What, if anything, did she say to you concerning any activities your husband was involved in? A. She said that if my husband testifies, that she would put a gun to iny head and kill me—against Mike. | Mr. Parsons: Thank you, Mrs. Grimmer. Answer any questions any other counsel might have. : Mr. Koutoulakos:. Just one or two questions. Let her — compose herself. aoe 7 ; _Cross examination. A‘ > By Mr. Koutoulakos: Q. Do -you want to use a handkerchief? Get yourself composed. Nobody is going to hurt you: Here, wipe it off. Get ahold of yourself now. Just relax, A. Okay. Q. Now, didn’t you tell four husband that the person that Was going to stick—that did put a gun to your, head was Steve? : A." No, Steve was there at the time. When she said that, he just kept saving, “Yes, yes.” No one put a gun to my . head. They-said they would put a gun to my head. _Q. But you did not make the statement to your husband .that it was Steve who was supposed to have done it? (fol.540] A. No, I told him that Steve was there and ' that Steve just kept saying, “Yes; y yes,” you know. He was drinking. Steve was drinking at the time. Q. But you did not tell your husband, again, that it was Steve that did it? A. No, Steve didn’t put no. gun to niy head. 70 eae at a> Q. Now, after this so-called meeting—I assume that you were f rightened? ay - A. Yes. 7 Q. Especially of y irginia? I perf she had camient you and you were f rightened; is that right! 7 A. Yes. Q. Didn’t you later, after thet so-called meeting, spend some time in her house with Steve? ? | A. In her house after that meéting? an Q. Yes. oa ‘. A. No, I was never in eee house after that meeting. - Q. When was the date of that meeting? A. I don’t know the date of the. meeting, but it was after Clay was going to plead guilty. I was in Norfolk, Virginia, one more time, and my mother come with me. and I was in - - the hotel. Q. But you deny— A. I didn’t even go to her haat. Q. You deny spending some. time in their house, - [ fol. 541) with ‘Steve? A. Before. Q. After, w ‘ith Stevet I do not mean it ina smart sense. A. No. Q. I mean you were there with Steve while he was there! A. I was never with Steve. . . Q. I do not mean as a date. I mean whilé he was present and you were present-in the Milanovich home. - Mr. Parsons: What time, Mr. Koutoulakos? > Mr. Koutoulakos: .This is after the meeting. J] just want her to say whether she was or wasn’t. Az After the meeting? | * By Mr. Koutoulakos: 9 Q. Yes. A. I was in Cleveland. I never was in her house, no, after thé meeting. Q. Now, when was the next time that you saw your hus- band after this meeting? A. Isawhimin Atlanta. . : A ae . = * . .% _ . a * . > ~ eens ® ._* ° . “2 : ~~ Q. And when was tliat? 2 «8 x. That was—Idon’t know the exact date. » € -Q. Was it in November or October, or ‘when? s _- ‘[fol.542] . A. November, October, somewhere around there ¢ —way-overarmonth. - : Q. Way over a month ago? A. Yes, it’s been way overa month. Q. Pardon? © ee 3 A. It’s been way over a month. . Q. But, i in any event,.you néver saw Mike there? A. Mike? Where, up at Cleveland? Q. Yes. A. Mike was not there. Q. After your husband pleaded guilty, do you have any idea when that was, what date that wus? ¥ as that in June, or if you know? A. No, Thave no idea what day it was. - Q. When you arrived here the first time, as I understand it, you came here to see your husband because he was in trouble; is that correct? . . AL Yes. Q.. And how long did you stay in the Norfolk area? A. T don’t know.’ It was about four days, something like that. I don’t know. Q. Four days? - : A. Something like that. : Q. Well, wasn’t your hushand— . A. We stayed atthe hotel and) then I went over to her * [fol. 543] house. S Whose house? A. Milanoviches’ house. , Q. Now, how long did your husband stay in this area, if P ng know, before he was sent to prison, wherever that Ww A.. It was ‘from then—when he was picked up until—I think it was either the end of Jujy or August, ‘something like that. ~~ - Q. And did you remain here for that whole period? — . A. No,I didn’t. I kept coming back and forth. 2 So you were coming baek and forth? ‘A. Yes, I'was coming back and forth. a % LG 7 . . 3 72 ‘" @ outside again. o 4; Q: During ce, eae back and forth, after your husband had pleaded guilty, were you accompanied by Stevet + A. Was I accompanied by Steve? , I mean, would he fly in‘the same plane with you to Cleveland and.did he come back in the sare plane? A. He vent back on the same plane with me to Cleveland when I was stay ing ‘at the Milanoviches’ house. Q. But he was in the same plane with you? > A. Hé was in the same plane, yes. Q, Nothing happened to you? en ‘ . A. Nothing happened to me, no. : _Mr. Koutoulakos: No further questions. - oe 544] The Court: Anything further of this witness?” . _ Mr. Parsons: Nothing further, your Honor. - The Court: May she be excused? oo Mr. Parsons:- As far as the Government is concerned, your Honor, she may. The Court: Would the defense counsel desire her pres- ence any, longer? : Mr: Koutoulakos : Your Hoaot,: we want hier here for ’ when we put on dur evidefice—just have her excluded. Mr. Parsons: All right.-- Mrs. Grimmer, will you step Mr. + Parsons: Mr. Smith, take the stand, please. ? Huon J. Smirs, called’ as a witness by and on behalf of the Government, having been —" aver, testified as. ' follows: The. Court: Gentiemen, Mr. Smith is going to be @ lengthy ‘witness, isn’t he? . [f6l.545] Mr. Parsons: Sir? The Court: I take it Mr. Smith is going to bea lengthy | witness, or‘is he? © Mr.’ Parsons; If your Honor’ please, I do not know whether he is going to be lengthy or not—-not on the part of the Government. The Court: Alleright, he will not. be. We will carry through on the direct examination before we take a recess. ‘ Sa al “—_ . . e -— & . ‘ e ' . ° o A . . . a ° 73 a Direct examination. By Mr. Parsons: Q. Mr. Smith, will you ‘state your name, sif, your oceu- . pation and where you reside. . © F » A. Hugh J. Smith, Special Agent, Federal Bureau of In-. vestigation; L reside i in Norfolk, Virginia. | ~ “ .Q. Mr. Smith, were you charged with some of the re- o.\ * sponsibility of investigating certain charges against—or investigating the robbery at the Naval Air Station and did you alse participate in the—I beg your pardon—at the “Amphibious Base and participate in the investigation at the Air Station? , +? ee | ‘A. Yes, I did. . ; ; Q. After some time, at se participate i in the ssiieiiy , (fol. 546] of the Milanovith home at 8032 Webb Court? A. Yes, I did.” | .Q..All right, sir. I. wonder: if you would tell the jury just what 3 you found in that search, sir? *. - - A.- Well, in the bedroom, the guest bedroom, of the Mi- lanovich home, I found a tan Towncraft suitcase, and in this suitcase was a bag of silver, silver money—some of it in National: Bank éf Commerce wrappers. x Mr. Parsons: Your Honor, excuse me. We are bringing ° the bag ‘in.. It is locked i in thé Clerk’s = your Honor. ; - A, » By Mr. Parsons: Q. Go ahead. 7 A. And*some of it in loose: change and also iy this suit- 2: case was two revolvers which were loaded, and unlbaded by me. Q. I hand you a hie sir, with objects i in it. | wonder if you would tell the jury what isyin the box? .Take them “out one at a time and ideritify them. if you can. A. This is a Cobra, .38 Special, Serial No. 40269, which was one of the guns, and it was unloaded by me. Mr. Parsons:. I would like to offer that. sir, as Goyern- | * ment’s Exhibit No. 65. The Court: Let it be admitted. ' ; “ Mr. Koutoulakes: That is what he Tound? / ay ° ‘ 74 . [fol. 547] By Mr. Koutoulakos: Q. You put.the identification yourself? A. Yes. Mr. Koutéulakos: Okay, no objection. “By Mr. Koutoulakos : : Q. How about this piece here? A. Yes. These were sent up to the nein for. test firing, and we sealed them when we got thenr back. ’ By Mr. Parsons: Q. Identify the other gui A. This is a .38 caliber Detective Special, Serial No. | 422509, which was also in the suitcase and loaded. Mr. Parsons: I offer that as Government's Exhibit No.— The Court: 66. (The Cobra, .38 Special, Serial No. 40269 and the .38 Detective’ Special, Serial No. 422509 were marked and re- ceived in evidence as Government’s Exhibit: Noa. 65 and 66, respectively. ss f The Court: Mr. Smith, are those revolvers unloaded now? . : ‘The Witness: Yes, they are. The Court: You have checked them. J ust like to boake [fol. 548] that is all. 3 By Mr. Parsons: Q. Mf. Smith, did you take supervision over all of the . - money that was collected at the Milanovich home at that time? A. After it was brought to the office, I direeted— _Q. Go ahead. _- A. I diregted an agent—two agents to make a count of this. ‘money, and I also assisted-in the. count of the money that was in that Towneraft bag. Q. I wonder if you would step down, sir, and tell, if you ean, where this bag was located, and you might, sir, if you want to exhibit—I believe this bag is locked. ? 75 A. This money is not as it was.found.. We took it from _ the paper bag that it- was in in-the suitcase. The Court: Speak to the jury, if-you ‘will. . A. We took it out of the paper bag that it was in in the suitcase and put it in these National Bank of Commerce bags,.which we got from the National Bank of Commer ourselves; and also the money from the beige overnig bag in here now. This is the total of the money that.was found on June 19th. - -°, Mr. ‘Koutoulakos: Your Honor, I think the record—I think he already stated that it did not come in the bag and (fol. 549] they are not part of the evidence: The Court: He has stated that he or-some othr-agent of the F, B. I. secured the National Bank of Commerce bags, and they are placed ‘in' there for your convenience for holding the money. . ae . The Witness: ‘Yes, sir, that’s right, - By. Mr. Parsons: .Q. These are the bullets? : rade aes A. These are the bullets, the .38 caliber cartridges, that. were taken from the two pistols that have been entered. Q. Mr. Smith, is this the bag that’ you recovered, sir, and if so, where? ; TE aie A. Yes, this is the suitcase that was recovered by’ me ‘in the guest bedroom of 8032 Webb Court. .- ~ | Mr.*Parsons: All right, sir. If -your Honor please, we would like to exhibit this to the jury, but we do not offer it in evidence inasmuch as the money should:be kept -in , custody and ultimately returned to the United States Navy. _ The Court: The suitcase couldibe introduced in evidence, and as far 4s the money is concerned, I think it should be removed and placed at least in Some bank depository un-/ - [fol. 550] less counsel can agree that it can be réturned | to the Navy at this time. : a _ Mr. Koutoulakos: Your Honor, we are not claiming the money, so I—I don’t know whose it is: ae The Court: You wish to offer the suitcase in evidence? Mr. Parsons, do you wish to offer the suitcase in evidence? 76 - Mr. Parsons: Yes, sir. The Court: Without the money? Mr. Parsons: Yes, sir. The Court: All right, let the suitcase be marked as Government’s Exhibit No. 67. (The suitcase was marked and received in evidence as Government’s Exhibit No. 67.) By Mr. Parsons: . Q. The newspapers, Mr. Smith, were put in too— A.. They were also put in by us. ' Q. —by you all? A. For convenience of handling. Q. I notice there seems to be a liandkerchief in here. A. That was in there. I believe that mee to Mr. {fol. 551] Grimmer. Mr. Parsons: The Marshal will kindly remove the money. The Court: Now, the money will be turned over to the Marshal. I take it it has been counted, Mr. Smith? ° _ Mr. Parsons: Yes, sir. _ The Witness: Yes, sir. By Mr. Parsons: Q. Mr. Smith, I wonder if you would state what the re- sult of the count was of the amount of money. A. Well, the total amount of meney found in both bags i was $999.80, and breaking that down into two amounts, the amount in the overnight bag and the amount in the suitcase, the amount in the suitease was $501.60 and the money in the lady’s overnight case was $498.20, for a total of $999.80. The Court: All right. The $999.80 then, by agreement ° of counsel, will be turned ‘over to the Marshal for delivery back—_ ” Mr. Parsons: ‘To the Navy, your Honor. ¢ 7 (fol. 570) Herman F. Dremonp, recalled as a witness by and on behalf of the Government, previously duly sworn, testified further as follows: ; (fol. 586] Redireet examination. By Mr. Parsons: m Q. Mr. Drummond, I wonder if you would state.to the jury when you arrested Mike Milanovich?: A. Approximately 6:30 a.m. on June 19, 1958. Q. I wonder if you would state when you interviewed him, - sir? Jess A. I interviewed him on the same date. Q. Was that after he was arrested? * A. After he was arrested he was interviewed at our— ; at the F. B. I. office in Norfolk, Virginia. | , Q: What, if ‘anything, did you tell him edncerning any statements he might make, sir? —_ | ; F A. I told him that he did not have to make any state- ment; that any statement he made could be used either for or against him in a court of law; that I was not going ‘to promise him anything or threaten him in any way, and ? that he had the right to have an attorney, consult an - ‘attorney, before making any statement. Q. Did he make any contact with an attorney, to your knowledge, sir? A. Yes; sir. | e. -- Q. Was he given access to the telephone? A. Yes, sir. = Q. Did he make a voluntary statement? A -‘[fol. 587] A. He did. e+ % ing? ; A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he sign it? A. No, sir. * Q. Why did he not sign it, did he state? - _ - He said he wouldn’t sign it on the advice of his coun- sel. ate Q. All right, sir. I wonder if you would now tell the jury, Q. All right, sir. ‘This statement; was it reduced to writ- —- _ Grimmer again canie to his house and. stayed there one Virginia. ‘or two nights and. Grimmer said he was going to stay 78 ae - P sir, what the oral statements he made to you were, sir, generally speaking? A. Yes, sir. This is dated June 19, 1958, at Norfolk, The Court: Do ‘not nai the written statement. Mr. Parsons asked you what the oral statements were. Mr. Parsons: Perhaps I tould— The Court: You may refresh your memory from looking at any notes that you, yourself, ‘may have made, but the written statement, as such, is‘ not a signed statement and, therefore, it can only be ‘used by you to such extent, if any, as it may refresh your memory. [fol. 588] The Witness: Ald right, sir. By Mr. Parsons: Q. I wonder if you would just briefly state—and I be- lieve these notes were made at the time. and in Mr. Mi- lanovich’s presence? A. Yes, sir, they were. : Q. Will you tell the jury’ what the general text of his conversation with you was? A. Mike Milanovich said that sheet April 26, ’58 that his brother Steve, who lived in Cleveland, Ohio, and. Clay: ton Grimmer, who. was also fron#®Cleveland or Youngstown, Ohio, came to his home at 8032 Webb Court in Norfolk, Virginia, at which time that Grimmer was driving a dark | colored automobile, either a 1954 Pontiac, Buick or Olds- mobile. He said that Steve stayed at his home for one with some relatives who lived in Portsmouth, Virginia. He didn’t recall loaning his car to Grimmer on this occa- sion. He said that he owned a 1956 black Oldsmobile which he used to go back and forth to work in his job. He said that Steve and Grimmer left his home and returned to Ohio, place not known, around Monday, April 28; 1958; and that he recalls that his sister in Cleveland, Ohio, tele- phonically contacted him and said that Steve was in some trouble up there. . He said about three or four days after—after this visit, { fol. 589] probably around May 2, 1958, that Claytop night, and the purpose of this visit. was for him to get “ z : “f 2 money to help pay an attorney for Steve and assist in bonding him out, because he had been arrested on a robbery charge in Ohio. At this time he said that Grimmer said” that” he had-flown in from Ohio, traveled to Norfolk via plane, and. on this trip he stayed only two, or three days. He didn’t recall — whether it was two days or three days. He said he may have.loaned him his 1956 Oldsmobile at this time to go to Portsmouth to ‘visit his relatives, but he was not °sure of that, and. he said he did not know any of Grimnmer’s relatives. - The next time that he saw Grimmer was shel the middle of May 1958, and he thinks it was probably Thursday, _ May WB, 1958, or Friday, May 16, 1958, at which time he went outside his -home towards his carport, and Clayton Grimmer was at the carport with another man, who - Grimmer introduced to him as Ben Guerrieri, and he told Milanavich at that time that this man was a relative— _ Guerrieri was a relative of the bondsman who was attempt- ° ing to get Steve. out of jail in Ohio. ce \ . By the Court: Q. Mr. Drummond, may I ask you, how do you spell that proper name you pronounced as Guerrieri? I think it may be the same as what has been referred to here by. [fol. 590] counsel as Guerrieri; iS that correct, gentlemen?” Mr. Koutoulakos: I could be wrong in the pronunciation, your Honor. I assume it to be Guerrieri. A. G-U-E-R-R-L-E-R-I. Q. Well, that is the same name that has been referred to as Guerrieri and you may be right in your pronunciation br maybe they are right, but, anyway, it-is one and the ‘Same person. All right. A. I spelled it !'ke it sounded at the time, Judge. I didn’t know how to. spell it. The Court; All right, you may continue. A. At the meeting of Guerrieri and Grimmer at- his car- port at his home,, he was home from lunch at. the Naval Air Station for twenty or thirty minutes; that after he was introduced to Ben, he ate his lunch and then went back to . Je work at the Naval Air Station, and _said—he recalled, at that it time, that he told Ben-and Guerrreri—Ben and Grim- ~-méF—excuse me—that he had been unable to raise any money for bond for his brother Steve, but was still working on it. He said he did not know at this time where Ben “Guerrieri or Grimmer were staying, but: he believed they were staying at a motel. He knew they were not staying at his home, did not recall the’ name of the motel. (fol. 591] He said he did not know how Clayten Grimmer | _ or Ben Guerrieri traveled to Virginia on this trip, but he _ knows they did not have an automobile. By. Mr. Parsons: Q. Did he state that they were both at his house at that time without an ‘automobile or did he state they both were’ at the house? . A. I didn’t understand you. Q. Did he state that both were at his bowne at this time? A. Yes, sir. Q. And they did not have a car? A. Yes, sir, he did not know how they re there, bat he knows they did not have a car. . EF ny Q. All right, sir. What else did he at =: .- A. Well, he said he knew they did not have a car at his home at that time.. Q. Yes, that is what I understood. j A. He said he recalled that Clayton Grimmer went ‘back to Ohio, probably, Saturday, May 17, 1958. He couldn't be exact about the date, but he thought that was the date, and that he thinks that ‘on that day he had duty at the. Naval Air-Station and that he ‘does not recall seeing him on the day that he left. . Q. ‘All right, sir. New, right here, did Mike Milanovich, . [fol. 592] at that time, tell you anything about being out of town on May.15th, 16th, 17th, 18th or 19th of May, sir? A. No, sir. ~ Q. All right, sir. Did you discuss the Naval Air Station robbery with him? A. The next thing I discussed with him, did hé have any knowledge of any robbery or burglary at the Naval Air Station in Norfolk, Virginia, and he said that the only. —— 2 eal | 81 __—— knowledge that ‘KE had of this is what he seen in the local - newspapers and he denied knowitig anything about it. . Q. Mr. Drummond, was this hammer exhibitea or «kown to Mr. Milanovich? : A. Yos,ciee - - a - Q. What, if anything, did he have to say concerning this - hammer, sir? ce ; aa A. He said he had a leadfaced hammer—leadfaced doubleheaded hammer similar to this one, which had been slightly used, and was in the bottom of a white, metal cabinet in a shed in the rear of his carport, and he said he owned this hammer for six bs seven years, didn’t know where he got it from, but that it was missing from his car- port and that he didn’t know where it was, why it was miss- ing. | are Q. Was he able to identify this as his hammer? __- A. No, sir, he didn’t say that was his. He had one similar to it. a [fol. 593]' Q. Did you make some inquiry as to the ayail- ability of this particular type of handle in the Tidewater area, sir? ° A. Yes, sir.. Q. What were the results of that? Mr. Koutoulakos: Are you asking him about Mr. Milano- vich? Foe Mr. Parsons: No, I am asking him if he made an in- vestigation as to the availability of this type of hammer. — The Court: Objection sustained. Mr. Koutoulakos: Yes, sir. Mr. Parsons: All right. By Mr. Parsons: eek Q. Mr. Drummond, proceed, sir. ° A. Milanovich said that on Sunday, June 1, 1958, he said he went to Frank Madden's home, who is a chief ‘petty officer in the United States Navy, and that he got--and ke ° arrived at his home about twelve o'clock noon, and ‘hat he went over there to discuss matters concerning the Little League Baseball Team, which he was connected with; that he had several mixed ‘drinks and that about five*o’clock he left Madden’s home on that day and he telephoned his - * ' By Mr. Parsons: Q. Was Mr. Milanovich present at any of the times that you bought tools, sir? | A. Oh, yes, sir. - Q. Was he present at anyjof the’ times the tools were ’ stored in his tool shed? 7 A. Yes,sir- : - : _ __Q. Now, with reference to’ the Naval Air Station Ex- (fol. 734] change, how did you get to that Exchange? Do you recall the date? ces : . A. Yes, sir. “ce ; : ; . Q., First, do you recall the date that that occurrence took - place? ah ob ; A. No, I don’t recall the date of the rohbery, ‘sir. Q. How did you get to that Excharige? ee - A. Well, the night of the robbery, Grimmer, myself, Mr. Milanovich and Virginia Milanovich— 2 Q. Is Virginia Milanovich and Mike Milanovich in the courtroom now? . ; A. Yes, sir. re Q. How did you get— - * ; - A. They drove us to this Base. Q. Had you ever been on that Base before? ' A, Yes, sir, I have one time before with Virginia Milano- vich and Mike Milanovich. - a (). What did you do on the’ previous visit to the Base, if anything? . A. Well, they pointed out to me the safe that-was in the. Post Exchange, and by looking at that safe, I would know what kind of tools we would need. teat Q. Did Mike and Virginia Milanovich remain in the car after you arrived on the Air Station? | A. The night of the robbery, sir? (fol. 785] “Q. Yes, sir, the night. of the robbery. A. Yes, sir, the night of the robbery we drove alongside . of the Post Exchange. Grimmer and I got out and we ar- ranged, between us, a designated spot where we would meet. _ Q. What did Mike and Virginia state that they were go- . ing to do, if anything? | | A ie ‘ -. there. 90 A. They would be parked by the Officer’s Club and pre- tend as they were lovers. , Q. What did you and Grimmer do after that? A. Well, after they dropped Grimmer and I off, Grimmer and I proceeded to break into this Commissary Store. Q. To the Commissary Store or the Post Exchange? . A. I’m sogry, the Post Exchange, sir. . Q. Now, about What time did you go from the Milanovich home to the scene, br about what time do you think it oe- curred? ; A. I can’t tell you exactly the exact time, but I would. say it was roughly around 10 :30 on up, somewhere around: Q. All right, sir. | * \" The Post Exchange closes at eleven o’elock, and the idea of that was, we were Supposed to have been through by one o’clock because they £ouldn’t park there much longer after that. aa Ses . Q. What time did you actually get into the Exchange [fol. 736} Building, if you recall? A. Roughly about eleven o’clock, sir. Q. By what means did you get into the building? A. We climbed a fire escape onto the roof. There was a window open, which, I believe, was the boiler room, main- tenance room.” We went into the maintenance room, down the hall, into the theatre, down the steps. We came to a corridor, and right acrogs. from this corridor was a door that leaded into this Post Exchange. - Q. After you go into the Post Exchange, sir—how did you actually get in the Post Exchange from the corridor? A. Well, sir, the Post Exchange part, there was a'little | window in the corner by the door, which we removed that window plate and crawled in‘through it and, as a matter of fact, the safe \ us right in view there. ° Q. What did you do at the safe, then, Mr. Guerrieri? ~ A. Well, then we proceeded to open the safe, sir. Q. Now, did you take, sir, anything other than the stuff you found inthe safe? ~ A. ¥es, sir, we took some luggage and some diamond rings. Q. Do you remember approximately how many diamond - rings were taken, sir? : A. I'd say roughly anywhere between ten to fourteen [fol. 737] rings. Q. All right, sir. A. Ten to fourteen rings. - * + you keep some of these rings and give them, later, ¢ to : Peterson? A. I gave Mr. Peterson one set, sir, | Q. Who was actually with you at this time when you »roke into the safe, sir? : ae A. Just Clayton Grimmer and myself, sir. Q. About what time did you leave the building, sir? | A. Well, sir, it took a little longer than we anticipated, 30 I'd say roughly about 1:30. i Q. And who picked you and Gri p? . A. Well, Mr. Milanovich and Vi a were still parked down in back of this Officer’s Club: There were still a few cars left there. We carried the money down—no, excuse me, I take that back. We put all the silver in a satchel first, in a suitease. We couldn’t carry it. It was too heavy. So we took the other currency in another suitcase and we ‘brought that down first and we hid it under a truck in that vicinity. Then we weni down to where Virginia and Mike: were parked and we told them that it was over with. So, we got into the car with them and we drove in back of the . . oy Post Exchange, where we had the money hid, and out of the » car, opened, the trunk and put the money in the trunk. (fol. 738] Phen we drove off. Q. Did you go through one of the gates of the Air Station to get off the Base? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where did you go after you were picked up and went ne the main gate, out the gate, whichever gate it might have nf » A. Well, right’after we went out the main gate, we went right to the Milanoviches’ home. : Q. All right, sir. And what happened at the home after you arrived there, sir? . A. Well, when we arrived at the home there, we brought the money into the bedroom. Then we had told them about hay _’. ofirst of June or the last part of May, sir, and ask you, did ra 92 the mgpey we had left back at-the Post Exchange, and Vir- ginia decided it was a good idea to go back for the money. Q. Is this the Fost Exchange now or the Commissary? “A. Yes, sir, same. place. We went back there twice that night, sir. ; : ares i . Q. How much money did you get as your share, if any, from’the Post Exchange robbery? : A. My share, sir, was roughly between thirty-two hun- dredl and thirty-four hundred. * © : . Q. Who else shared in the proceeds of that robbery? A. Grimmer got the same amount as I have, Virginia got | the same amount and Mr. Milanovich got the same amount. \[ fol. 739] Q. Was there anyone else present? — . A, Yes, we*had some extra change left. aa Q. What happened to it? . bs A. Which we gave to Mildred at that time. Q. All right, -sir- 4 By the Court: Q. Who is Mildred? © ea A. Millie. The Caurt: Millie? - Mr. Parsons: Millie. The Witness: Yes. 4% ¢ By the Court: ; Q. You do not know her last name? 2 A. No, I don’t, sir, : By Mr. Parsons: . Q. Who were the. people that planned this robbery, Mr. jeri, if you know, sir? 7 _A. Virginia Milanovich. ae ° ~g Q. Mr. Guerrieri, I call your attention to around the you participate in the theft at the Little Creek Amphibious Base? A. I did, sir. ch ’ 93 _ Q. Had you ever been in this Commissary prior to the time that this theft ocenrred? (fol. 740]; A. I have, sir. Q.. Who took you in there, sir? A. Mr. Milanovich, sir. : . -’Q. And what transpired while you were in there at that time? . A. Well, at the tine I was at that Commissary, I had to take a look at that safe. There was a telephone hanging on the wall. It was by a door, and by talking on that tele- phone I could see in that room where the safe was, sir. -Q. What did Mr. Milanovich say about the safe, if any- . thing? ss >* = ; A. Well, he said he don’t know exactly what kind of a safe it was, and it would be a good*idea to take a look at it first to see what kind of equipment we would need. Q. On the day or the night that you committed this theft, how did you get to the Little Creek Amphibious Base? A. With the same procedure, sir. : Q. I wonder if you recall approximately what time you . arrived there? . . A. Well, I'd say this night, sir, was about twelve o’clock. Q. Incidentally, sir—I did not ask you—but do you recall the kind of car that you were driven to the Exchange—into -the Amphibious Base int A. Mr. Milanovich’s Oldsmobile, sir. (fol. 741} Q. Do you recall what year model it was?. A. I beljeve’it was a ’55 or a ’56~ Q. Now, sir, this particular’ robbery, sir,.who went with you at this time? ’ ; Re | A. Well, on this particular robbery, sir, there was three of us involved. ~ All right, sir. . Five of us altogether, sir. Q. AIL right, sir. A. It was myself, Grimmer, my brother-in-law; and Mr. Milanovich, sir. — yeas “ Q. After you got on,the Base, what did you do t en, sir? — A. Well, let me see.: We more or less used fhe same procedure on that Base as we did on, the last "irginia 94 P : a e ee dropped us off on the side of the Commissary and they were supposed to go down and park at ‘the Officer’s Quarters. There were cars parked there where the officers had gt and they were supposed to go into Ges same routine as had previous. Q. Did you actually get into the C ommissary Store that night, sir? A. Yes, sir. ; Q. Llow djdJou get into the Commissary. Store? A. Well,/sir, we made ‘our way to the roof and we re- moved the \window, a small window frame, out of one of | fol. 742] them big French windows and we went through . hat window. - Q. How did/vou get into the building from that window, sir, if you t A. We dro down from the window into the Commis- sary Store, sir. : Q. Did you have any tools with you at that time? A. Yes, sir. . Q. And what action did you take ‘after you got into the Commissary Store, if you recall? - A. Well, sir, there was two safes in there. One safe | didn’t see*when I looked in there the first time. It was in- the other room. And at first we attempted to burn open the big round door safe. The torch stopped working. So, there- fere, we started on the other safe, WAjch you didn’t need © no acetylene torch. So we opened tha e and removed the contents that was in that safe, sir. g Approximately what time’ did you through with © that particular job, sir? : A. Well, sir, I couldn’t tell you exactly what time, but this much I do know, it was morning, getting close te morning, because Mike had came to the telephone booth that was on the side of the Commissary Store and had rapped and says to hurry up because it was almost daylight. Q. Nov% did you havea prearranged meeting place ‘in case they were not present when you came out, sir? (fol. 743] A. Yes, sir. .Q. What happened when you came out? A. Well, sir, first we took the money out. That was the silver and the currency, and we brought it to this designated 95 place where the Milanoviches were. supposed to pick us up. However, the Mijanoviches didn’t come, so we buried the money in the woods close by. We were going: back to the Post Exchange for the tools when we seen the jeep parked in-front of it. We seen— Q. Going back to the Post Exchange or the ——— A. The Commissary Store, sit, I'm sorry. When we seen the Authorities more or less around the Commissary, we decided that there was no use geing back.. So, therefore, we left at that time. We didn’t find the Milanoviches. We left the money onthe Post Q.. How did you conceal. it, Mr. Guerrieri? A. We hid it in the woods— Q. BuriedT a X. —where there was some ‘iil and we ; cumnivaiingnd it. We put leaves over it and branches, and so forth, things like that. ; Q. -All right, sir. . A. Then we proceeded down by the riverbank and we . came out at the far end of the. Base. [fol 744) By the Court: 7 |) Q. The riverbank? . A. Yes, sir. There was a hale under the fence where | imagine the sailors used to anak out, so we just came right under that hole. . By Mr. Parsons: . : Q. You do not know whether that was a. river or an’ inlet from the sea, do you? A. No, | wouldn't say it was g river or sea, or what, sir. All | know is, there was a lot of water, sir. \. After you got out from under the ) Se what hap- pened then?. ° - A. Well, we had a designated place i ip | chee dant in the event there would be any trouble ‘on the Base and they couldn't get to us, in case we had to run, sir, we would meet ° at a designated place,-which was close by the Base. So we proceeded to this spot and we waited and we waited. tKete * ©@ aa 96 . ' for a good length of time. I forget exactly jast how long it was, but eventually Virginia came up the road. Mike was no longer with her, and Grimmef got out and flagged her down. Then she came and stopped the car and we all got into the car, sir, and we left. _* _Q. Do you recall whether Virginia-Milanovich was alone at that time or not? aoa on A. No, sir, she had brought Millie. Millie happened to |fol. 740) be staying at her house at that time. She brought _ Millie with her, because she didn’t want to stay there by herself. Mike was a little too upset, sir. | | Q. Where did you go from the time you were picked up _- by Virgini& Milanovich? — 4 A. We went right to the Milanoviches’ home. Q. What occurred at the Milanovich home? A. Well, we told them what had happened, that the money was still on the Post; and so forth, and we had made arrangements to go back to the Post and pick up the money. Now, that night, I believe—now, I believe—I’m not sure whether it was Chyist, my brother-in-law, that went back with her or Grimmer, but one of thé two went with Virginia - Milanovich back to this Base and they eame back and says that there were too many people around there at that time. So we waited a while longer, and I think it was around that afternoon, somewhere around that afternoon—I’m not sure of the time now—myself, Grimmer, my brother-in-law, Vir- ginia Milanovich and Mike Milanovich, we got into the car and we went back to the Base, sir. . 0 Q. Let me ask you this:' What was in the car besides ‘people that day, if anything? : A. We had some fishing rods, fishing tackle. The story was that in case we got stopped, we were going to go fish- ing. We went into the Gate, down around to where the | fol. 746] money was buried.. We seen that there was still: too much activity, so we decided just to leaye it there tem- porary. So we proceeded on out the Gate again. As we-got to the Gate, this guard stopped the car and said, “I believe this is the car that I scen last night.” That shook us all up a little bit, but-there was somebody inside arid said, “No, it was a late model.” So, evidently, it myst have been his 97 superior, which I believe it was now.- So they didn’t ques- tion the point | any further and they waved us on through, sir. Y. Did you receive any of the money from that job on that day, sirt a” Sir, I didn’t receive no money that day or any other time, sir. Q. What did “sha ‘do after the second trip back to the Amphibious Base? ee gt A. Well, sir, we went back to the Milanoviches and we Waited around there all tha‘ same day, and then we had talked about what we were. going to do about that money. _ Seeing that the way things were.going at that time—what I mean by that, it wasn’t going in our favor—we made plans to leave the money there temporarily, and we'd go back and u“¢ im wi out a week or two. . And what did you do aftet that discussion! z Well,. after that discussion—one minute, sir, Um not so sure about this point’here. I forget how it was but, néver- | fol. 747] theless, they were a little scared that night for some reason or other, and they asked Millie if she would be good enough to put us up at her home. Millie didn’t want | to but, nevertheless, they-talked her into just keeping us there overnight, because we had made arrangeinents to fly back to Youngstown tle next morning. . And did you return to eames the next morning! , A. Yes, sir. Q. All right, sir. Ww hen did- -you next come ‘to Norfolk, sit? A. Well, sir, I never came back » Norfolk after that.. Q. I believe you came back to Newport News? - A. T came back to Newport Neys several months later, sir. . Q. Now, I call your attention, sir, to the latter part of Jun and the place is Youngstown, Ohio, sir, and ask you if vou recall meeting with Donne (irimmmer at that time or around that time? A. I seen Donna Grimmer quite frequently at that time, sir. As a matter of fact, it was about a week after this epi- sode T picked up a paper one morning and [| seen where Griminer— * 98 Te — Mr. Kdutoulakos: Your Honor, I think he is, exceeding - [fol. 748] the question. I thought he asked him to recall the meeting. Now he is talking about gail something i in a newspaper. The Court: Just answer, if : ,ou wills Mr. - Guerrieri. Did you see Donna Grimmer the latter part of June; is that cor- rect? Mr. Parsons: Yes, sir. The Court: Anytime one A. Yes, 116 Q. You néver made that statement fo anyone? ‘A. No, sir. ‘ Q. You're sure? A. I believe | said asraatatan. he you. oné time, s sir. Q. Tu me? . . Yes, sir. age | Q. And when would that be,. Sunday ‘morning wits I saw you? ° Q. When you came over to ‘the County Jail to see me, sir, Q. I am not'referring to that. First, I nay state I do not recall that. But did you ever make that statement or make a request of anyone? A. AsIsaid,no,sir. . Q.. Never on the ‘phone to anyone? " (fol. 779] f Q. Yes, roughly. And you got info the car there? . A: Yes, sir. i! : Q. You and Grimmer? Pear a om A. Yes, sir. | pre 118 Q. And that’s the only two that were there? A. Just Grimmer and I, sir. Q. Did you have to go back i in the building attes that! As Yes, sir. [fol. 782] Q. Did they drive you back to the buitding! Y A. Well, sir, the first time they drove us back to the build- ing where we. took—picked the money up from under the truck, put it in the trunk and left. Then we came back to the Post, went back into the place and picked ap the change and brought the change down, sir, and put, it in o- trunk. Q.- Did you have the currency t A. The first tiine we got the currency. Q. You had the currency the first time? A. Yes, sir. Q. And then when vou came back with Mike and Virginia, “you got the change to. A. Yes, sir. . * Q. And the tools? Ay The tools we left there, gir. Q. On the Nav al Air Station, you left the tools! - A: Yes, sir. ; Q. And oly you got off the Base, you drove off the Base! A. Yes, sir. *Q. Now, on the sec ond, on the Amphibious or Little Creek, who brought you there? / A. Mike and Virginia Milanovieh. . Q. By themselves? © . A. Yes, sir. [ fol. 783} Q. And, finally, did anyone pick you up? A. Yes, sir. -Q. And who was it! | ; A. Virginia and Mike Milanovich—excuse me, J take that _ back, sir. I'm sorry. Wait a minute. : Q. All right. ) , A. As I said, Mike ‘and Virginia brought us.to the Base —to the Base, but on account of what happened, they had left and when they came back to the designated place to pick us up, Mike wasn’t in the car. That was when Millie. Was in the car. “ Q. Millie was there that time with— ; cae vae 119 . 7. A. Yes, Virginia said she was scared to come os alone, soshe asked Millie to come with her. .« Q. I see. And then those two picked you up off of the Deg Base, was it? 3 A. Yes,sir. 29 Q. And you flagged them dow + ‘A. Yes, ‘sir—I'm so. ry, sir. | didn't flag them down. It was Grimmer that flagged them down. : Q. Grimmer. Now, when you went,to buy some oxygen, or some sort of tank, w here did you go! ; A. | don’t remember the iame-of the place, bat I know \that we went to seyeral places. - Q. Well, did you make a purchase in one on ? [fol 784] A. Yes, wed@id, sir. | Q. And did you-lmy it, buy this tank or hues A. I don’t know whether it was given to us on a lease or Whether we. bought it outright. I know that we paid for it. . And did you all pick it up then! Ay . Yes, we did. . Q. You did. And it was you and Mike that time? A. That’s right, sir. @- No question about that, : \. No question about that, sir. . Q And did either one of you sign any paper: \. Sir, I can't swear to that. There is a possibility. | don't know. I don’t remember offhand. - QQ. Now, may | ask you to write “Mike.” -A “Mike”? ‘ , {). Just write the word “Mike” four or fite times, A. Yot will have to wait a minute. ‘sir. Min a little hea ous, (k Esee. Try to relax yourself. A. I will try, sir. . Q. Could fou come over here Wiere the jury can see you? A. Yes, sir. Q. Write it natural, just like vou would be writing. fol. 785] A. That's M-I-L-A-N— ' (). Just “Mike,” the word “Mike.” A. All right, sir. _ whatever you were buying at the—what was it that you . sary, sir. 120 Q. Write “Mike” fur or five times down there. A. Any other way you want me to write it? Q. That is your natural h dwriting? A. Yes, sir. t Q. You were going to show me something i in your hand. Was that for some purpose? ‘ A. No, sir. , “ae Q. Now, at that time you were going .to. buy this— were buying, some sort of oxygen or tank, or-what? “A. Yes, | wanted to get ome oxygen and acetylene. = Q. And at that time you were anticipating a safe job! A. Yes, we were selec: this di at the Commis- Q. Were you nervons at thai time or were you calm? Do you get my question? A. I got your question. What do you mean! When | was buying this stuff? Q. Yes, while_you were there buying this. A. Well, I tried to act natural, if that’s what you mean. fol. 786] Q. I see. And if they asked you to sign some- thing at that time, either you or the other person you ,wére with—-Mike—would that have concerned i any? I don't believe so. ed Could you give 3 your address? Sir, as I reeall now, I’m pretty sure that Mike signed: Oh, Mike signed it? . Because I think he. told me he uae c raw ford’s name. signed it Crawford. . Lsee. A. Under the name of Craw ford. Q. Crawford? A. And I told him he shouldn’t have done that me Crawford lived right next door to him. 2 I see. You remember that?’ A. Oh, yes, I remember that. Were you standing there when he gave the oma No, he told me afterwards. Were you standing there when hie gave the name? H tee aye rere . Prep ‘121 A. Sir, you are asking little things I just don’t remember offhand. Would you repeat that again, sir? Q. All right. You were inaking the purchase, weren't you? I mean you were the one who knew what to use? A. Yes, sir. o ‘ - [fol. 787] Q. And you were there when the purchase was ~ being made ? : A. Yes, sir. , Q. And do you know. whether you le ased it or bought it and whether anything wes signed! A Sir,as I said, as far as signing ulate goes, I don't remember. Q. All right. Were you ee’ when a name was giv en, this name Cr rajeford! ; . I don’t even remember tl) at, sir. . You do not remember it! . At this specific time you are talking about? That is right. s ; I don’t remember exactly for sure now. But you do remember Mike telling you “Craw ford”? . .Yes, sir. All right. And you were ‘not present when’ anyone signed anything, when the man was making éut the receipt so vou could pay for it? , A. I remember making out a receipt. Q. Oh, you do.remember that? A. I don’t remember sifning anythiag. Q). You remembér the man making out the receipt! A.”Sir, I.can’t swear to that. I.mean you're asking me something that I, remember vaguely about—lit. # things like [ fol. 788] that. a : pa - Q. But you'do not remember when’ you went, in there, statiding at the counter, wherever you were, a receipt being “madé out and a namé given,-and you do not recall any of ° that—if a re eipt was made out or if a name was given or if anyone signed anything? Do you’ remember any of that at ~ all? : (A glass of water was handed to the witness, ) serererer: The Witness: Thank you, ser. Pardon me a minute. Mr. Varoutsos: Take your time. ra ; >: 7. ‘By Mr. Varoutsos: Q. Let's take it one at a time. - A. I think I can answer that question for you right now. Q. “Allright. - 9 “A. As L-said, | don’t remember the man writing the in- “voice.® ; Q. How do you know it was an invoice? A. Well, I imagine if they ere going to write anything, it’s got to be an invoice. Q. | see. That is what it is. So you are correct there. Did you guéss at that? © A. Sir, | went to the tenth grade i in school. I ain’t that stupid. eh [fol. 789] Mr. Parsons: If your Honor please, the ex- amination is ce ‘rtainly liberal. Let's not argue the case all- along. oe , Lee The Court: | suggest that you ict him see the paper you have. ; “ Mr. coun: Not*yet, your: Honor. I’d rather. not. The Court: All right. Let’s go on to another questicn. _ He said he does not know. By Mr. Varoutsos : Q. You do not know whether a receipt was made out? - The Court: He said he does not. ‘By Mr.Varoutsos: Q. Y ou do not reeall a name being given by Mike? o— Mr. Parsons: Your Honor, that is the tenth time— The Court: He said he does not know: Now, if you want to show him the slip to help him refresh his memory, it might refr@h him. Otherwise, drop that line of question- ing, and. proceed to the next question Mr. Varouisos: All — . *By. Mr. ‘Vareutsos: Q. Mr. Guerrieri, then you do remember, after you left | fol. 790] there, that ‘Mike told you that he gave this per- son’s name, Crawford, who lived next door to him? rs / ed ‘ ‘ : 124 Q. And what Was that refreshing your memory to? A, The price on there, thirty-seven, forty-one. _Q. Lsee. And then Mike paid for it at the place? A. Yes, ~ Qa. W emt Mowed you this, you said you remembered it [ foi. 792] then because the name— A. 1 don’t remember it that specifically. 1 remember the -name, Wallace L. Carson, and the amount of money, sir. ' Q. Parson? : A. Carson, Carson, or Crawford, or whatever it is—some- where around theré, By golly, 1 think you’re right. His name is Carson or Crawford, somtthing like that. 1 know - the man lived— | ’. Q. Take a look at this. A. I will put.it this way— ~ | : Q. All right. Just look at this and tell 1 me anything you want. A. I guess the name must be Carson. Q. Itmustbe? . *) ; A. As I was saying, 1 do remember him saying he lived next door. Q. Are you answering some question of mine? A. I'm sorry, sir. ¥ Q. Now, I believe on direg} examination by Mr, Parsons you said that you spent one night at Millie’s home; is that correct? A. I didn’t get a chance to finish that, sir. Q. Didn’t Mr. Parsons give you a:chance to finish it? XN [fol. 793] A.*From the Milanovich’s home, we went to— (). Let me ask you that. You said you did not have a. chance to finish. Before lunch— A, LT remember the question. Q. Now, wait a minute. Let me ask you my question. Mr. Parsons asked you and you stated you spent one night at Millie's. Now, I'm putting the same question to you and you answered teane you did not have a chance tfinish. Are-you telling the Court and jury that you were cut off at that time, so we will’ keep the record straight? | A..No, sir. As | was talking, I just talked and skipped— skippedy it, and I remembered that, what had happened, and I didn’t say what had happened, so J just let it go. «= 125 Q. I see. I am askifig you—and I will give you all the time you want—how many nights—and if it is one like you said before, say so—how many nights dic you spend at’ Millie’s? ; Mr. Parsons: Over what period of time? By Mr. Varoutsos: Q. From the first time that you arrived here with Steve and Grimmer, Steve Milanovich and Grimmer, Clay Grim- ° ‘mer? . ' A. Well, sir, shall we start with the first time, sir, or the second time * ; (fol. 794] Q. Right from the beginning, how mach®time did you spend at Millie’s?: How many: nights? A. Well, sir, I'll tefl you. Myself, personally, I was stay- ing at Virginia and Mike Milanovich’s hoie. Q. Now, I believe you— . A. Do you want me to-repeat that? Q. Yes, just repeat that. A. I said myself, personally, 1 was staying at Virginia’s and Mike’s home and Mike’s brother, Steve, was staying down at Mildred’s home. Pace : ° ~ Q. Then you-only stayed there one night? That is the » only question I am asking you. A. Exeuse me, Now, I didn’t say that. You are asking and I am going to tell you. Q. All right. pace A. And I stood at Millie’s home a couple. of times— . Clay and I did the first time. Clay-and I stood there a few times and Steve and Richard and Mildred. Q. Now, from the first time that you came down, did you spend any time at any motelst A. Yes. oe Q). Which motel * A. On our urrival the first time we didn’t want to impose, « so we checked into a motel, sir. 7 ~ Q, Do you recall where that was ! (fol. 795] A. I don’tgrecal] the name of the motel, sir. ‘Q. Dofou recall when it.was? | A. When we first came down, & Ca ° gl a a *. ‘Q. When you first ¢aime down. A. When we first carne down to— Q. And about when was that? . A. That was prior to the first robbery, sir. ' Q. And how did you register? at! He A. I believe I ‘used the name Sherbundy ,-sir, J idliies I don’t remember, sir. Q. Was that thé only motel that you stay ed— - A. No, sir. . Q. And what other motel besides— - * A. I don’t know the names of the motels, sir, but | remember two motels we stayed at— — Q. Two motels— A 'e _. A, —at two different, various tiines. —Q. I see. What kind of car were you driving on either occasion? A. Well, at one time we were drivi ing a 702. Buick and one . time a’53 Buick. *(). Did you ever register as Harry Berman and John Stein? ° A. Repeat that, sir. Q. Did you ever register at a motel and give the name [fol. 796} of Harry Berman and John Stein? A. Yes, sir, I did. (. And did you use the name John A. Hairell at one time? A. I never used that ae. Q. You never used that name. Now, on the Naval Air Station, when you went back to pick up the coins, I. think you said you went back to pick up the coins— A. Yes, sir: Q. —was that the same evening before you got off the ‘Base?. A. Yes, sir—excusé me. Now, are you veluviions to the— Q. Nav al Air Station. . A. That's the first one, sir? Q. That is the first one. ‘A. The first one, yes, sir. _~-Q. And once you got off, after you committed the 7 bery, you never w ent back on the Base that day or any other time? . ae, j -. | | ; IBS 5 % 127 . I don’t unde rstand that (fuestion. On the Naval Air Station job, that is the first job— ~ Yes, sir. —you went on tlie Base. 797] A. Yes, sir. . There came a time that you got off the mae! . Yes, sir. Did you ever go back on the Sies after that? ‘ Yes, sir. When was that? . To pick up the change, sir. Was that the same-night 4 . Same night, sir. You left the sate and caine back on in? . Yes, sir. ema . When you came back, whom did y ou come with? _ A.’ Mike and Virginia, sir. Q. Just Mike and Virginia, as you stated; is that correct? A. Well, sir, 1 will be very frank with you. Millie might ~ have been along, but I just can’t remember for sure. I don’t know whether she was there or not. I know she had came back with Virginia one time. She had been in the car a few * times, but I couldn’t swear for sure whether she was with “us Or not, sir. - Q. Did you tell the F. B. I. that? A, I beg } your pardon, sir? Q. Did you'tell the F. B. I. ~ she was along? A. I might have, yes. ‘[fol. 798] Q. You might have? '. A. I don’t know, sir. I mean this time remembering back now—I was always confused about that issue, to tell you the truth. Q. If you were confused, you would never - tell the F. BL that a person that was not ‘there Was in the car? You would have no reason to do that? A. No, sir. _ Q. I read to you a statement that: you gave on November 4, 1958: “He stated that he definitely recalls that Gauger accompanied them on the second trip to pick up the coins. _ A. On the second trip, sir? a roleorep -O ee re an bo \; = . "128 sen ee Mees “wy. That.is right. a” A. You say on the ‘sécond trip to pick up ‘the coins? .It's ., true | may have made that state lent, sir, but 1 believe— . Was that statement true when you made it? A. Well, if | made that statement, I believe it was true. I _ could have been mistaken. , \. on that? Q. Now, you say you were confus “A, Hold ‘it Noy, just a minute, sir. I mean let me see if | can explain it to you, if that’s all right. Q. Sure, go ahead. _a\. As I said, ‘as far as Millic—I'a a little bit confused yn this respect: I know-that Millie had been in the car with {fol. 799] us a few times. | remember definitely when she caine back with Virginia at one time, but as far as gong or ' coming, Im not sure. Q. All right. -A. I’m not sure, but— Q. “Keep— A. W ith re respect to: ‘that statement, | remember making ~_that statement. Q. All right. On November 4th, you remember making . the statement that— Mr,.Parsons: I believe you are reading—tiie date is not important, but I believe you are reading the dates wrong. I think you will find the date of that statement was October 2nd. That i is the date it was written. That is the date it was © dic tated and this is the date it was taken. “Mr. Varoutsos: I see. Allright. — By Mr. Varotitsos: Q. On October 2nd, the statement that you made, as it is here: “Ile stated that he definitely recalls: that Gauger accompanied them on the second trip to pick up the coins,” and yourwere, from this statement, pretty definite on Octo- ber 2nd; is that correct? | fol. 800 | A. L retnember making the statement, sir, yes. ‘Q. Now, on October 2nd, when you gave that stateme At. that definite, statement, you said that Millie (iauger, Mike, Virginia and-you went back to pick up the coins ; is that right? : 129 . « \ ‘A. Will you repeat that question again, sir? ‘« Y. According to this October-2nd statement, that definits statement you made, you stated Millie Gauger, Mike and _ Virginia and yourself went back to pick up the coins; is thatcorrect?. ‘A. Well, sit, as | salih nite as | think about it, I could have been confused. Q. All right. You do know that Mike, you and Virginia . were there; there is no question in your mind on that! ©” A. Yes, there is’ a pbssibjlity that she could have been there. As I said, she was in the car a few times. - Q. IT see. Leave Millie out for a mitute. Mike, Vir _ ginia and you were ecar? — \. That I remem res. Q. -And no one else? Mr. Parsons: I do not object, but he has asked this same question about four times. He said it was possible she could . have beep there. : . . The Witness: Will you please do me a favor and ask me / j\fol. 801) that question again? a in The Court: Gentlemen, may Uhaye the floor? Mr. Varoutsos: Yes, sir. The Court: It is for the jury to determine whethe v thie or any other witness should. be believed, and I appreciate the fact that the testimony of ap accomplice is subjected to the closest of serutiny and should be so serutinized by a jury, but, Mr. Varoutsos, we could be here, fifteen days . for you to ask that same question. If this witne ‘SS Says he dloes not remember, that is it. Mr. Varoutsos: Your Honor, agre with von, and I do not want to belabor the point and when Mr. Parsons ‘said, you ask@d that question five times— ; © Mr-Parsons: No, four.times. , Mr. Varoutsos : -—four times and then the witne SS SUVs, e -"Please’repeat that question again,” so I.was just trying to— ; The Court: Ask it this last time and let's quit. ——— Mr. Varoutsea: All right.“ fol 802] The Court: If he says he does not remember, ‘go to the next question. - . 130 te : Mr. Varoutsos: My question is _ phrased a little differ. ently and I will do exactly that. y, : a _ By Mr. Varoutsos:. Q. You said you do not remember whether Millie was along or not, so we will leave Millie out. We have- estab- lished there were three’ people in the car, yourself, . aie ~ and Virginia. | A. Whent {). When you went back to pick up the coins on the same evening. A. No, Grimmer was with 1 me too, sir. Q. Grimmer was along too. Now, getting away from ~ * the October 2nd statement, back on July 14th, you say, - “Guerrieri stated that he and Grimmer were driven back to the Naval Air Station by Mike and Virginia and reen- tered the Navy Exchange by the fire escape; which is the way they initially entered, and retrieved the. silver.” A. Yes, sir. Q.» And at that time you did nét mention Millie Gauger. A. Well, sir, as I said— Q. Is that true? A. I remember that Grimmer and I retrieved the money, -| fol, 803] sir, yes. Now, as I said before, whether Millic “was ‘there or was not there, I can’t say for sure.° Q. Was there any. money split up between you and ow ‘r on the Amphibious job? . On'the Amphibious Job, sir? - Q. Yes : A. No, sir. : *, . Q. You got no money out of that? - bf No, sir. Q. The second job, the Little Creek job, what time did you get there? A. Well, sir, roughly around midnight, - wt Ronghly around midnight. And what time would you ° say you left?’ , A. I don’t know the exact time, but daylight was setting in. _ (. Daylight was setting in? » 131: A. Was setting in. »Q And_you are sure of that? , A. Certainly ['m sure, because Mike rapped on the win- _ dows, “hurry up.” - &. And at that time you and Grimmer did not split any money, you got no money for yourself? A. Lgot no mone y for myself. (). Who went with you on that job? ~ - |fol. 804) AD Grimmer, my brother-in- few. \. Christ Sofocleous!? A. Myself, Virginia and Mike. QQ. And whe picked you up?. _ 5 AL Yes, 4 Who picked you up, if you recall? . Virginia and Millie. % 136 By thesCourt : : co, (), Where were you tried on your plea of guilty? A. In Cleveland, sir. ©. {fol. 812] Q. In Cleveland? ae ee A. Yes, sir. _ ae . wo By Mr. Parsons: ‘i Q): Mr. Sofocleous, where did you go after you were picked up by Virginia Milanovich and Millie Gauger? A. Milanovich’s home. — . & Q. And what happened,at the home then? ) A. Well, we just laid around the house there till the following day. chien ___Q: Did anyone in that group return to that Base again: curing that day, to your knowledge? A. Yes. | 9 Who went ask if you know, sir? - . Bennie, | believe,’ Clay ton Grimmer, Vi irginia, . | pie ss that was it. ° ; (). Do you know, did Virginia Milanovich or. Mike Milan- ‘ovich state. why they went back on the Base or give any reason why they went back on the Base? A. No, sir. .(). Did-you receive any of the proceeds from this theft, Mr. Sofocleous? A. No, sir. ; (). Let me ask you this, Mr. Riiiiein When you flew down, what name did you use on your ticket, sir? . A. Mr. Christopher. mov |fol. 813] Mr. Parsons: Answer any questions ‘that coun. _sel might have, Mr. Sofocleous. : Mr. Koutoulakos: Exeuse me— . ' The Court: Have you had an opportunity to see the statements yet! Mr. Koutoulakos: No, your Honor, ‘but while they are * looking— * Tlie Court: We will take a brief recess.at this time so . - you may have an opportunity to look at the statements. y? ° Mr. Koutoulakos: lam going into the 1 reason for it. Mr. Parsons: You may roar at the jury but not at ‘thy ‘witness. Mr. Kontojalakes : 1, am not going to roar at the jury but at the witness. '» The Court: You may ask the first part of the question, if there any (sic) reasons why there is a change in your tes- timony today. ; The Witness: No, sir. ‘By Mr, Koutoulakos: - (). Is there any reason? ° A. No, sir. A. Yes, sir. . Now, how long did ven stay here after you arrived j in June, if you know? A. Maybe a week or better. Q. Then did you return back to ts antec h A. Yes, sir. Q. Mr. Sofocleous, can you fell us, for our benefit, when, after. that statement, wherein you denied your participa- tion, you did decide— A. Which statement Was that? Q. The one that I read to you about you denying any : or ledge about the job until you read it in the paper. . That might have been first when I was picked up. That may have been when you were first picked up? . A. It might have been. = Q. How 4ong was it after that that you pleaded guilty ! A. I don’t recall. Q. Between the time you arnaaty guilty and the time you gave this statement— , .. A. I don’t recall. , | : * -Q. Just listen to: my question now—did you oa Mr : CGuerrieri get together and discuss this case? |fol. 840] ‘A. 1 told you at the time we did, before we— before we were sentenced, or anything. | Q. Do you recall about what time it was in the morning \ after this job was completed that you. got off the Base? — €ould you give us an estimate? A. Tdon't recall, what time, but it was daybreak. Q. Quite late, five, six o’clock't A. I don’t recall th Q. It was daylight? \. It was getting light. \ 153° ~ Q. And this was in the summer? ‘i oe \ _ Q. Daybreak w ‘ould be. what, do you have any ideat A. I couldn't tell. 2. Was the sun out, to your knowle ‘dge? . A. Well, | mean it was getting daybreak. If the “sun colnes out then,.1 don’t know. ; Q. As | understand it, there were some tools purchased when you all were down here? A. Yes, sir. . (). Who purchased them? , Cees A. Well, it was me, Bennie, Miky ' ts ‘Q. You are sure Mike was along? . A. Yes. (). What tools are you talking about? | fol. 841] A. The tools that were on the job. (). Just specify them, if you know. _ A. Well, 1 couldn’t tell you what kind of tools. they were, Q. How about an oxyge n ‘tank, was Mike along then? ? - That was a tool. . A. I don’t know. I didn’ t buy an oxygen tank. ; Q. lidn't that may identify you in court today? _A. Pardon met (). Didn’t that man identify you in court here today ? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Parsons: I do not think he knew what he was here 0 identify him for, frankly. ° Mr. Koutoulakos: We are not going to mislead the j jury. Mr. Parsons: Do not mislead the witness either. * Mr. Noutoulakos : I am not misleading him: Mr. Parsons: He was identified twice. By Mr. Koutoulakos: (). You were identified as tlie man that bought that tank, do you want to deny that? A. Yes, sir, I didn't buy ne,tank.. - _(. And I want to. be fair: again. H¥4 testified that he * ‘tol. S$2] Mentited you. | a --?g 134 A. I did not buy no tank. es Q.. You did not ‘buy a tank? ee A. No. : ~ Q. Well then, ‘that am, who testified, was not telling the truth? - A. Well, maybe he ‘ote, Q. And you did not buy the tank! A. No, | bought other tools. Q. You do recall being brought into the courtroom for the ide ntification ? A. Pardon me? ‘Q.- You do recall being women into - the eonsiveini? A. Yes, sir! ' ‘Q. Then if you did not ‘buy that, how do you know who * was along, if, you were not there? A. Pardon me? ° Q. You say you did not go there when a eylinder was ~ parchased? 7 A. 1 went along with them when they went and bought tools, but not at the time they bought the tank. -Q. Do you know what date it. was when you came -here! A. I don’t know. (). Was it in June? | fol. 843] A. I couldn’: tell you? (). Do you know if you were here in May? , A. Leouldn’t tell you. . @Q. Do you have the eyidence of your plane— A.*I guess they have the ticket. .Mr. Parsons: The plane tickets are in evidence, if, you care to sce them. I do not know the exhibit, but I believe they are in. a y The Clerk: I do not beHeve the tickets are in. The stubs are. . By Mr. Koutoulakos : es : -e Q. What name did you use, a you remember? ” A. Christopher. ~ Q. I want to be fair. This one does not. have your name. This was not it. All right. is ak . 155: The Court: The only plane tickets that are in evidence, Mr. Parsons,“are the tickets in the name of Sherbundy and — Harrell— . Mr. Koutoulakos: That is right. 3 The Court: —on one ticket dated June 3, 1958, : Sand ; a ticket in the name of Chr sto date. June 3, 1958, both of those trips were Norfolk to Koungstown with stopoffs, |fol. 844] ahd soon. Those are the only tickets that are in : evidence ; isn’t that true? ne Mr. Koutoilakos: That is what I apderstand.” ‘By Mr. Keutenidiine: Me ae il “Q. Well, that June ard would be’ your return 1 trip, | Silie it, going back?’ ; A. Pardon me? te (). I take it the June 3rd trip. would be your going back: ?, ) A. Yes, sir. ‘ + You do not know when it was that you got he: sre? . No. The Court: ‘There was ev idence i ‘the lady who testi. ° fied, but theré was an objection to that evidene e. That ticket was excluded, to my, recollection. By Mr. Koutoulakos: : Q. Now, Christ, do- you know whether or not any more statements have been. given by you other than those you have been confronted with? A. I wouldn’t know.’ ().. You just do not know? ae. A. No. 2 “|fol. 845) Q. Do y you want to write the 1 name Mike down several times? : . A. Pardon me? (). Mike, just write it on there four, five or six dines. y — Mr. Parsons: I do not have any objection to his signing . J would like to know why, because I see nothing in the ey a that has a thing to do with it. Mr..Koutoulakos: At the proper time— ! The Court: It may be connected up. I do not know. “>. a 156 | Mr: Koutoulakos: Could I have Exhibit 41, please: By Mr. Koutoulakos : (). L want you (sic) show you something, Christ, and ask you whether or ndt_you have seerthis before? Take a look ut that ticket. Just Iditandlookatit. > ° @ The Court: The question is, have you ever seen it be fore: AL Ldon’t 1 re ‘call seeing it, sir. The Court: He does not recall secing it. (fol. 846) By Mr. Foutoulakos : | ; (). Do you recall ever signing such an instrument? 9 A. No, Fdon't.’ Q. Now then, you did not go alorig when this purchase was made, assuming there was a purchase? A. Which purchase? Q. Of an oxy gen’y linder.. 7 © A. That’s right. ° Q. Definitely, you were not along? A. That’s right. 3 _ Q. No question about it? “A. Right. ; (). Who was it that. went to purchase the ‘eylinde r, if you know now? A. IL couldn't tell you. Q). And you do not ever kitaw if a | cylinder was pur- chased? A. That’s right. (. Now, did you bring any equipment down from C leve- land? \ A. Na, sir. ee oe (). Do you know w hat was brought down by Bennie and Clay? «A... No, sir.’ (. You do not have any idea? | fol. 847] A. (Witness ‘shakes head) The Court: Do you wish to present, for identification. the signatures, the writing of the word “Mike” by nal wit- ness? 2 fe ~ - + 187 Mr. Koutoulakos: I want it marked for identification. The Cédtrt: Let it be marked: Defendant's Exhibit No. 3 fer identification. (The samples of handwriting written “ Christ Sofoele- ous Were marked as De fendant’ s | Exhibit No. 3 for iden- tification. ) Mr.» Koutoulakos: Your Honor, what I was doing, frankly, there is a name “Mike” that appearsgon the bottom when “the cylinder was taken. 1 was under the impression that it was Mike Milanov ich. “I am now-told that Mike was ‘the name of the salesman, so | will withdraw’ this. Keep it out. : ; Mr. Parsons: Mr. Flanigan, according to my records, is — known as Mike. eens ‘ , Mr. Koutoulakos: We did not know who the Mike was. Tlie Court: If we had known that a long time ago, I think we would have saved about two hours. . |fol. 848] Mr. ‘Koutoulakos: Yes, sir, I’ni sorry, bécause we just found’ it out, Thank you. That is all we have. » The Court: Any thing further, Mr. Parsotls, of this wit- ness? » _ Mr. Parsons: No further questions from the Govern. ment, your Honor. : I The Court: Is he to be excused? fake, Mr. @arsons: F would like for him to remain, your Honor. » Whe Court: All right. Just make’ yourself comfortable : out there. ; -— The Clerk: Mr. Koutoulakos, you have one of those ex- hibits marked for’ide ntification. Mr. Koutoulakos: What is that? The Clerk: Do you want to ask the Court to withdraw both of.them? Mr. Koutoulakos: Yes, I would itke to ask the Court to Withdraw them. The ¢ uct: -Withdiaw foth Défendaat’s Exhibit 2 and 3 tol. 849) for identification for the reason that apparently th: word “Mike” was the name of the salesman. Mr. Koutoulakos : Yes, sir. 158 ws ‘. Crayton T. GiaimMER, mes “i as a witness by and on behalf of the Government, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: Direet examination. ' By Mr. Parsons: Q: Mr. Grimmer, would you speak loud enough so thar these gentlemen can hear you while | ask you these ques- tions, sir. Will you state your namie. A. Clayton Thomas Grimmer. * ; Q. Where is your home? . A. Youngstown, Ohio. Q. L%elieve you, sir, w [Text truncated at 120,000 characters. The full text is on the page linked above.] --- Source: Frix Law Library, https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40386409_0336%3A1. Public record. Not legal advice.