# Transcript of Record — Coryell v. Phipps > Briefs, arguments, decisions, and more. URL: https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40386403_0088%3A06 ## Record - **Collection:** Supreme Court brief - **Document type:** Transcript of Record - **Published:** January 1, 1943 - **Citation:** 317 U.S. 406 ## Text ° . ® : ° a . 5 e e 6 . - \ \ . . ad . - *. ° \ . _ . . “ . ‘ . . ° e ° a . . . J e , — ee Se man . . La a ‘ . - / . oo ~ . : . . ‘ > - - \ - s a = ° = . - * . . / ° ‘ . * . bd . . : se *. es . : . ae . : . 2 & . i ‘ . ; é : . . ‘ \ . . R : : *- : e . e , . d t Zs | 6 . . . . ™ : . ~y e ° - . : z 7 * . . ° . . . ‘ : . . / = . ‘ ¥ . . ® . " > + . = ° ’ - . . . ‘ . 6 F , - . . , . 1 ‘ - . ° ‘ . \ co . . , . . b . ' . . Obit, ee Vol. Vv S TRANSCRIPT OF RECORD sll | ae oan ——— mind? Mr. Botts: ; ‘It is not-.concerning ‘the matter he has been interrogated about this morning, ‘at all. The Court We did adopt that general rule] and I thought’ we would - but of covrse I realize it is . follow that “at this time; something else you have in’ mind, that you want to in- terrogate him before you did put him on as your witness. : Mr. Botts? - Yes,sir; it t will take about a minute, either way. . . 7 2887 Mr. Sinead: : Will you read the last question please? (The testimony. last precedirig, was read‘) - A. I believe’ ‘they were. : ' Q. ‘And Number One and Number Two: tanks sat. in. one pan? _ A. Yes. Q.. And Number Three and Number Four tanks sat in the other? A. Yes. ‘ Q. . Is that right? | A. That is right.. , Q. And the pens were bigger — the twa tanks, of "course? “A. Yes. ; Seen a | | Q. So that’ there was a margin of pan all around the -. tanks, was there not? . .° : A. Yes; that is, the lid came ‘up. 1 Q. Did. you observe. whether those pans had. been broken down or’ destroyed in any way? A. Not that I could see. Q. So.that the tanks sat entirely within the pans, Those would be the only two nee where a ne could possibly: leak? - ’ A. No;-you have a: stuffing uN there, .. Q. You would have to manage -to Keep that tight, wouldn’t you? A. Sure; keep everything tight in an engineroom. Q. Any other. place where the pump might leak? A. No, just the one. box; that is assuming that your — were put in a | Well you are just contioutie. this iron pipe; You. raleigh ye ys. ete AR ee | 2898 ae sate Q. ‘Then you baie: your riser from the pump? A? Going up sare: the deck. nn Mr. Underwood: : 3 1 think that’s all. ‘ar: Botts: soe 7 | roe __-Sudge, if you suspend a minute, so q might confer with we this witness, I might “have one or two questions. a (A brief informal recess was held.) By Mr’ Botts: A: : “ .Q. Captain Patton, you- hha e ‘testified that you arrived at the scene of the fire while the ‘conflagration was still , in progress, and remained there ‘almost continually until ; the body of Mr. Abel was recovered? Mr. Underwood: -I dislike to interrupt, but ‘is this bacibaliy Patton ‘called - aS8’a witness for Pilkington? =~ Mr. Botts: pees eke cs tia ea, * 1 dont know, he is just hate You can put it down any way ‘you want. to, making him’ mine or anybody -> else's, Mr. ‘Underwood: : ry aos Anybody else but mine. I. think we ought to have ‘it clear whose witness he is, though. - ; > - dhe Court: _ Mr: Botts is calling him, so he will be regarded as a witness for Pilkington. (The last question | was read by ‘the reporter.) A. ‘Yes, sir. - com ee a 9899 By Mr. Botts: .Q.. Do you recall the occasion ‘whei the Seminole and _ surrounding cooled down so it was: possible for someone — to go aboard her? | : 3 A. Yes, sir. ° Q.. And do you recall whether you were with the tirst people that went aboard the Semindle after she became . cooled off enough? A. Yes, sir; if. not the. first, 1 am not sure; 1 was ‘there all the time. ne : Bere Q. You were there at the time, and. were among the first? | ; : a eee. cS ion Q. ‘I will ask you, at that time, if you: ‘Observed. the . position of the tanks of the Seminole? A. Yes, sir, I did. Q. Did you observe the position of the tarts: of the. Seminole on. the occasion when the Court and counsel visited the Seminole at Nuta’s Boat Yard in becom I ‘believe it was; of this year? ei ees ee ees ‘Q. I will ask you "whether you can ‘state from your observation on this occasion of your first. visit to the Seminole, after the fire, and the visit out there at Nuta’s Boat Yard, ‘whether, save for the tank. that. had been _rémoved, the position of the gasoline tanks, in the Semi- ’ nole was the same on those two occasions? Yes, sir, as far as J could see. i Q. Well now I ask you whether you observed? i A. I did; yes, I looked at them. Q. And was the position the same? “As .Q © > , Yes, sir. ‘ 3 inet ! ‘T call your attention to a ec aate ss acuta are all. in evidence?_ ie oy ai Sie! x ey _ Mr. Matteson: ‘I don’t think it is. 2» 2900 (By Mr. Botts): a call your attention to a hafograph— The Court: Mention it. : —Q. It isn't in evidence: — ask you if you took that aS _ photograph? A. _ Yes, sir.* '-Q. Does that sitinarents correctly exhibit ‘the condi- : tion and‘ location of the tanks of the Seminole upon your visit immediately after the Seminole had cooled down— | . that is, your first visit? © ae ; , A. Yes, sir. res. y : afi eee a Mr. Botts: re We vffet it in er Je Mr: itaciniaidl I take it hy your testimony, Captain, you mean that: - this photograph correctly resiresents the position and con- dition of the tanks when the photograph was ‘taken, ‘Au: ; gust 13, 1935; is that what you mean? ; Yes, sir; they. ‘hadn’t mace moved wei : Mr. Underwood: "Mr. Uniletwood: I move to strike out, they sega been awed any. Mr. Botts: If he knows it, “he can state, P aa 1° I have the right to cross examine ‘about it at the -mo- ment. This was taken —- 13, 1935? te A. Tom a. Pine er © ee BE yi | 1. ° ee ee ae 2901, Mr. teieeco’- | And the tank in -Y ieceend | is the starboard tank? ; A. I think it is the port tank. - Have you got any more of those others? 3 Mr. Underwood: | _ ‘The tank: at the. bottom of the photograph is the port tank?, rieteser : ; fon T believe SO, yes. é i a wht Mr. Underwood: eae Number One tank, i is that right? - A. Yes, that’s righ. There is that mass of hyacinths over there. * Mr. eterinnit I have no objection t to the: photograph. ~ (By Mr. Botts): Q. And you say this was licen on August 13th, and correctly exhibits the condition immediately after. the fire? A. Yes, sir. eEy ' The Cokirt: That makes it unnecessary for the Court to rule on your motion to strike. | Mr. Underwood: ; — Quite. so.—What will: that number a a cen The photopeaple so = eatned was admitted in por tay | and filed: as oe Pilkington’s. Exhibit 16.) (By Mr. Botts): ; -Q. When you visited the Seidel the first time? after . the fire, I will ask you if you observed any eviderice of Oo 2902 ". an explosion having occurred; ‘and if so, just answer, did you observe any such evidence? 1A. Yes, 'sir.. - Q. Now then with respect to the tank compartment, . — did you obsérve any particular: evidence of an explosion ‘in connection with the tank compartment? A. Yes, sjr;- the - eranecuedl were’ pushed —separated; e) '. pushed up. | Q: You méan, ener away from the tanks? A. That i right. Q. So that the walls of the tank compartment had— A. Expanded. is : mia Q. Bellied out? 7 A. That is right. Mr. - Botts: _ : That's all. " * By. Mr. Underwood: Q. When you say,. bellied out, do you mean that the fair shape of a flat plate, had been changed, er that- the two bulkheads were just further ‘apart at the top than they were at the bottom? -A. That is right. Q. The latter? eo: A. The latter, yes, sir. The ‘bulkheads were bellied - out, including the plating. too. Q. - -And that’s the only -evidence you saw of an ex: plosion in the tank compartment? A. Except for the tanks being misplaced. There must have been. an explosion there to push them out of place. -, ‘Oi How many tanks were misplaced? A. One that I know of. Q. And only one that you know of, is that right? A. ‘I would have to take— Q. Is that right?’ ee ee A... -I woulda’t admit but what the others were slight- ly misplaced; but there was one—. . Q. All I want to know -is this, Captain; a you say that they were or do you say that they weren't? : _A. .They were. *.Q. The others were misplaced? A. One, to a great extent; I don’t know abeut the: others; I didn’t put a line ‘on them. Q.- Let’s take them up one at a time. In the first place, you got there on the afternoon of the fire, after © the Fire Department had gone; is that.right? - A. That’s right. = 7 Q. And you say the first time you saw the tanks,’ Number One was misplaced,—out of place; is that right? A. /, Yes. —No, Number Two tank was out of place. Q. “How about Number One? - ; : A. Well, comparing Number Two with Number One and Three, Number Two was greatly out of ees I didn’t-line up all the rest of them. Q. Did you run a line on any. of them? — A. No, i did not. But I run my eye and could. see that Number Two was well out of place. ¢ z Q. You are sure about. that? A. ’ Pretty sure; it is a lang time ago: Q. You are sure aren't sure, Captain; Please tell me what it is. : A: wouldn't trust my memory; I would trust to the photograph. "als Q. I can read photographs with some degree of ac- curacy; I. want your memory. What is it, now? A. Four years and a half is a long time to remember Nat - 2904 A... I wouldn't. swear to that. eee = Q.. Captain, you really don’t know which is which, at this time, do you? _A. ‘I will depend on the shotepregh. | -.Q. Well, Captain, I think. it is fair to say to you that the Court is. going to depend in some measure on the photographs, too; but we would like—I at ages would like to have your memory. ) A. I will say at least one tank was ‘misplaced. . Which ene? A. I thimk that was Number Two. Q. Well we have got two things which you say are evidence of an explosion: One. is the bulkheads, and the other is Number T'wo tank. Is there anything else? . A. No, except hearsay, and I can’t quote that. Q. That is right.. What was it that indicated to you that : this particular tank was out of place? A. They didn’t line up. Q. At what point? Are you referring to the ies ohare the valve came through. the hole, or at the top or where? — A. No, that eluates that it is Number Two tank; the . draw-off valve, at the base of: the tank, near the base. of the tank, is.centered in the hole in the bulkhead, and the other three are nearly so, but it is very much out; in fact it was sheared; of, that valve, Number Two. | _ @. Well did you observe that on the se after the - fire? .. . A. No, two days afterwards. We were. busy. sadness _ ~ing her out, trying to get Captain Thomas’ body. Q. This observation refers to- June 27 then? _._A.. Two days after the fires Q. Thé secorid day after .the fire? : =o believe so. The.diver tried to get them the fol- lowing. day .but couldn’t find them; we > had to punip her ee out. . Mr. ‘Uedaweek: That is all. "Mr. Botts: That is all. Mr. Matteson: That is all I have. ‘The Court: a : Captain: let me ask you this question; sii it is very academic: but assuming that there | was a spark from the knife switch. : A. Yes, sir. The Court: The position of which in the ‘engineroom was consider- ably.above the engineroom floor; and assuming that there was gasoline vapor confined solely to.the bilge of the boat;. : could that spark have been communicated to the gaseous substance. in the. bilge? FY A. Yes, sir; it has been proven by the laboratory « of .the. New —— Fire ti dca i Mr. Sudiewied: If your Honor please, I hesitate to- interrupt. . The Witness: as tae ge df =) ‘Isn’t this off. the sete? aa The Ghee. 2 Ls = I-just want your We - The Witness: en Is this going in? - Mr. Matteson: - Yes, sir. | A. Yes; sir. With the strong ‘gasoline fumes in a bilge, it might be too strong to ignite; but with that mix- . ture of air, and him passing around through there, very . probable that he started up the proper mixture, that sparking of a switch made the explosion. That was my, - opinion, two days afterwards, when I wag able to investi- gate it., If I live to be a a old I will always anes that is what started it. : The Court: Fifi ie ’ You spoke of ‘a possibility of diere being gaseous sub- stance in pockets in the bilge? A. “Yes, sir; I mean by that, many boats ‘have web frame, intercostals, which form pockets down below decks. : The Court: ‘ Assuming that the gaseous substance was ‘utuns to ‘the pockets and had not been disseminated in the atmos- ’ phere, or the air, to, which ‘the spark could” have had access, that is horizontally in contact ‘with the atmosphere _ at. that point; if the. gaseous substance was confined to pockets in the bilge, could there have’ been any contact between this spark and the gaseous substance in the bilge ~-in the pocket in: the “bilge? : A. I don’t. know as I can explain that, but to my mind the deriser gasoline vapors would be against ‘the skin ‘of __ the ship, and gradually decrease in density, to the e top. of the engineroom. The Court: ; _ Well do you assume ons that. on the theory that gas is heavier than air, and it had in the first place .de- scended to the bottom-most part of either the bilge or the engineroom, to which ‘it had access; is that a correct assumption, according to your ideas. now? — | _, A. My idea is that the bilge-was full of 4 strong g line mixture, and so was the engineroom. ~\ 2907 The Court: . Well let me ask. you this; assuming that there was some opening through which gaseous substance could pass from the engineroom to the bilge, would, according to your ideas, and your teaching and learning on this matter of gaseous substance, and where it would lo- cate,—-would that gaseous substance go to the bilge .and remain in the bilge, to the point that it would . not re- main in the engineroom? , - A.. The denser part of it would, your Honor. Gas can only get so dense until it liquefies; and I am of the opinion there was enough gasoline -in the -entire bilge ofthat ~ Seminole, that the whole engineroom was ‘a strong gaso- - line mixture. e The Court: Well I am speaking about ° ‘it now from the theoretital standpoint. A. Well now, I don't know whether this daeela go in ~ _ the record, but the night Mr. Botts and pailler and I went. up to the: —— , 3 Mr, Underwood: ~ Tam sorry, I will have to object to that. e The Court:, Don’t get into hearsay. A. I was an eye-witness. ’ bs) The Court: That. is ali right; I want. your views from the theoreti- ° cal standpoint. _ ‘A. I believe the whole engineroom— The Court: I am nat asking you what your views-are as: to this particular casé; I am asking you, ‘from the theoretical 2908 standpoint; that is all I am interested in’ now; I ‘mean, from iny questions to you,—just theory. A. Have I answered aaa sufficient? The Court: Yes. Would ‘the fact that according to your iaseey, . now, that there could be a denser solution in the bilge, than from a higher portion, to wit, in the engineroom— A. Yes, sir; | you might, have— - The Court: In theory, would that be : saaianaiaiee entaai about yy ae some circulation of air, or some outside influence, that _ would have brought about that rising of a portion of the — ‘more dense solution at the ‘base; to wit, in the bilge, higher in the. engineroom? _ A. Yes, sir, that is quite right;. that boat, even under ‘shed, in my opinion is insufficient ventilation. I admit that there was some ventilation, if you were to stir that up. a me PERS A | Ba T caution you, please, in answering my questions,—_ I am dealing in my questions to you, from a theoretical - standpoint. We have had testimony here based upon hy- potheses that there was no circulation. What I am inter- ~ ested in asking you about jis, assuming that from a thes- - retical standpoint it was — ra eTNG, an airtight ~ situation. A. Then I believe the gas— The Court: : Then. would the hae solution at the | increaszd to. the extent ‘that the space dense solution would naturally. be i A. Yes, sir, I believe it would. | * Coe - The Court: Well I gather then from your answer ty» my theoreti- _ cal question, that, assuming that there was no outside ‘influence in the‘ way of circulation -of.air or heat or con- _vection, or whatever it may be called,—nothing. of an outside influence; if there was a denser solution at’ the ‘base of the apartment or compartment, more so than there was at a®higher point in the compartment, it would ne- cessarily be brought about di some outside Ynfluence?. A. Yes, sir, . \ : The Court: Now— . ‘Ahience would have to stir. - the thick stuff? The Court: Raters , } That is right. ; eee A. - Either’ mechanical force or ventilation, or draft, or something—yes, sir, that is quite right. ; The Court: ; Well now is this veniiets can you. dissociate in your, mind the mental picture of the enginerocm: and the bilge ~~ of the Seminole ag you have it.pictured, as it must have been at the*time of. the fire, or conflagration; or what-_ - ever it was started; but picturing that it was a boat, as distinguished from that particular ‘boat; that it was a ‘vessel, with an engineroom, and with a bilge, and with tanks in which gasoline was kept, in which there was a knife switch. Now from a theoretical standpoint, am I " correct in this: that if a spark was emitted from the knife switch on the wail of such a theoretical boat; that. either one of these two situations must have existed. That either the gaseous substance which in the first place was heavy enough to descend to the bottom of the available — @, Teh 2010 spebnj-nthat either that gaseous substarice in its density had increased in ,volurne.to the.extent that it had arisen to the point even or in proximity to the knife switch; or - else that there was a lessening of the density at the bot- ~ tom,, which lessened density had counteracted and gone into the upper pertion, of the apartment of. the - boat,— of the vessel, and ‘that therefore according to what you have stated as to outside influences,. that there must have been some method of outside influence to have brought about thet situation? Now’ is. that a fact’ . A. Do you want me to give my opinion? The Court: Yes; it seems to me that that ‘is— A. Either could cause it. The “Court: rah * x sy " I believe either way, as you describe it, could cause | an wapieten: ; The Court: | j ; - Well my: thought is that one or ‘the other must have dope it? -Now’ am I correct in-that? ‘A. Mes,-sir; I am inclined to think that the first i thing . happened. . : The Court: . ‘ T am not asking. you, * Captain, which in your opinion ” did happen; I -am asking vou, from a theoretical stand- point, is it a fact that one of ‘those conditions must have existed? Ss AL: . Yes, sir, _ is quite right. . The Court: Now to go over that again; either ‘the dense solution — must have increased in volume sufficiently to’ have ele- By Mr. Bott®’ 3s} ; 2911 vated in the open apartment, to have occupied continually more space as its volume increased? . A. And richer. : The Court: | ee “ And richer; or else if it was 'a fact, in this theoretical. - case, that was a ‘more dense solution at the base, as com: pared witly a like solution at the top,—that that condi- tion, of a more dénse ‘situation’ at the bottom, compared with the lighter: solution at the top, was brought about by some. outside influence? . A. Yes, sir. atte hor st ier _ The Court: . That’is all I. care to ask. Q. In other words; as I understand it, Captain, if the air in the surface—I mean in the bilge of this—and not the Seminole; but of any vessel, any boat, if it remained calm and stationary, without motion, then the heavier "alee T A. You said, air, Mr. Botts? 3 ie Q. All right, .if the contents of the vessel was not being agitated in any way, whether it was gas or air, and thére was in that an explosive’ mixture of gasoline and air, when it rose 'to the point equal to the knife Switch, if the knife switch emitted a spark, it would explode? © ; ad ett - A. Correct. | rr tes : -Q.. So as I understand it, if there was this explosive . mixture down in: the— REE WER eA : A. Bilge. eeyit Res Nae _ Q, In the bilge of the vessel, and had risen to a con- stant level— an ee RS es “A. In. other words, built up. Ee | 3 6 Fa : y \ La 2912 Bo dS, vf . Pe ’ : A . i = Se Equal with that of the knife switch; that some, _ oo Boe current’ of ajr might have caused a swirl of air‘to come __ _ up and explode it, is that’ t? Pes he "A. ~That’s right. ° Se py . . ’ eK . a Sisk By Mt. ‘Underwood: ee ra Nes Q. Captain Patton, Mr. Matteson has said that I might --use theséphotographs of his. Is. that one that you took? Yes, I took that. You took it on July 31, 1935? ‘That’s right. . re ~ And ‘itis a. photograph of the draw-off valve? That's the same. — . show you another” one; did — aay that? | Yes, sir. .« - : LE Tia Gaal ar ean July 31, 19357 ; eae - That’s right.. | 2 a ae . And that’s a photograph— Dero grecke as Of ‘these fittings down here. bene Tw®@ of these: fittings? . bed fos you~ want a copy of these? - PR No,. not. these; it. is the other. ‘Where aid you, x eer take thesé photographs, Captain? __ | » fra This is an old bedspread hanging on to the side” ; * "of my car, or the window of the car: That was in Coral — Fevptoberererer. Lae: Gables it was taken. ; ae. Ce ‘These were. taken out in Coral Gables? Avs ae a Q. At your house? Bris aieyown metre So. od ie 3 ee 2 A: Yes, alt ; . ee | Gress hae hang the ‘up onthe. back of your prey ox : igs bie | ref idn’t get. them. out of the HAN / z 2913 : Q. \ White did you get ‘bent A. ‘Let’s see; I think I got them from Mr. Miller. Q. Gary Miller? You mean’ you got them from him just. before you took them?. he ie A. Yes, sir, shortly. .Q. “Within a day or two? : them. Q: I just want to get it straight,. Captain. “You got these contrivances that are shown in these two photo- . graphs, a day or two before July 31, “1935, from Mr. Asad ‘Miller of Fort Lauderdale? A. I believe that's ae, yes, sir. Mr. Underwood: te offer those two exhibits. : ar. Botts: aaat pt ae : No oe so far as I am concerned. \*Mr. ‘Matteson: "No. objection. - The Court: ae : They wi ‘be admitted. Ae Nee : ad ‘ 3 be ‘ . “~" Mr. Underwood: | . The first one is a photograph. of Exhibit > _ (The said photograph was admitted in evidence: and’ ba as Respondents’ Exhibit 5- tT) "Mr. Gadavisnod: ahe next is a- oe of Exhibits Numbers 2 and 17. 9 A. Yes; I didn't sates them out there, I. didn’t want (The said photograph was admitted | in evidence. and filed: as ‘asin ia -eumcuscad 5- g). 2914 Mr. Underwood: . - | have no-more questions, ‘Mr. Matteson: ~ That is all. (Witness excused. ) 3 . Mr. Botts: é : Before I forget it, I woud ‘like to offer in evidence these two exhibits that have been marked 13 and ‘14 for identification, and concerning which the stipulation. with reference to testimony ‘was .offered yesterday. Any ob- jection to these, Mr. Underwood? _I am just offering these in evidence now that we have that stipulation yes- terday afternoon;.13 and 14 in. evidence, instead of wal | « identification. : (The ‘said two exhibits” were admitted in ovdance and filed as Pilkington’s Exhibit. Numbers 13 and 14, in evi- dence, respectively.) 3983 ° Thereupon EDWARD S. THIBAULT as a wit- | - ness on behalf of Libelants’ in rebuttal, was. Sworn, and testified as follows: Rae Direct Rintaination. —— _> “By Mr. Matteson: ; 0 fk What is your full name?’ Edward S. Thibault. Where do you live? Miami.. . And how long. have you lived here? Since ’22. é . >OP>O >e 2915, What’ is your business, Mr. Thibault? Ship builder. In 1927, where were you. sieieanin I_was superintendenit of Merrill-Stevens Dry Dock Company. Q. Have you lived here céntinuously since. that time? A. Yes. 'Q.” .As superintendent of Merrill- Sivies shipyard at. that time, what was your duty,—what were your duties? ‘As Why I run the yard; in every capacity except the office; in charge of all construction. ar _Q. Repair work? Pore A. Repair work. . y Q. Do you recall: a — Seminole? A: ee Q. Being at the Merrill- Diseinnd yard, the latter part . of 1927? : ¢ A. Yes. ; Q. Was she also there earlier. in the year, do you re- member? A. Yes, in the spring—some time in the spririg. | Q.. Now particularly with reference to the work that _ . . was done the latter part of the year, can ergs tell us what the nature of that work was? A. Renewing shell plating, bottom. shell plating, ean ‘shell plating. Q:. At that time—who was in | charge of the work on ‘ the Seminole? A. .I-was:in direct ‘cial with the foremen. of the different Classes of -work. Q. Mr. Thibault, in connection with that work that was done at your yard, were the gasoline tanks removed from the Seminole at any time?. ‘A. No. QQ. Was any v" ok gone on the gasoline tanks of me. Seminole? 2916 A. I don’t ‘think so. ; Q.. Was the side plating removed from the ship? A. Na, eit..--° 2 Q. You spcke of renewing bottom plating... What part ‘of the ‘ship were the bottom plating renewed? ® A. When we Started git, we started to remove the bottom plating on the after end of the ship, under the engineroom: and back there;.and when we got aut we ‘found we had to renew- practically the whole bottom. Q. Afterwards there was some done. in the - forward part of the too, you say? | _A. Oh yes. Q. Were tha floor frames, —were the floors and fratnes '. under the engineroom and the tank compartment: forward " of. the engineroom, removed at any time? A. Why forward of the enginercom,—forward of the mairr- window, where the water tanks was, we did: renew some pieces of frames; but not in the after part of. the boat at all. Q. _Was any work of that character done in, the space under the tank compartment, or in the enginerooen? A. ‘No. Q. What was done with ‘culgnet ‘to the ‘ide Plating of the Seminole? . A.“ Why we. originally was going. -to renew “the guard irons, some ‘of the guard bars; and after we ‘got -them off, the top of a sheer strake was bad in spots, so we_ made it double, put another plate right ‘on top of it; made. gocd connections and put-a guard bar on. Q. Was that side plating that was covered — new _plating—was that removed at all?: A. The old plating: was not removed. Q. Was the bulkhead between the enginerooni and the — tank: compartment, removed? | \ _ A. No. awe - ats Q. Were the engines taken out of the—main engines: taken out. of the enginercom? | ee . 2917 A. No. Q. Was any work done on the fuel piping ‘in: the € engine- room? ‘A. Not’ that I recall, that dee was seins done with that piping: > ® t kb. % The Court: perme ’ Was she a coai or gasoline boat at that time? Was she a coal burner at that time? — : Mr. Matteson: Gasoline. , Mr, "Thonipecn:: Se 1922, your Honor, it: is in evidence she was changed. | Mr. Matteson: pees Bees : tie tn ae This is 1927 we are talking about. Q. Was any electrical work done in the ship? A. . We might have done a little, but I don’t remembet what it was. _ don’t. think any great amount. The ‘Goieet: ; : The witness spoke just now about water tanks, Are ‘you referring now,—did you -mean the gasoline tanks, when you said just now, water tanks? - A. No, sir, I meant water tanks. The Court: Where were those tanks? A. In the forward part. of the boat- ° '. (By Mr. Matteson): : Q.. What was done in respect to the water tanks? A. Why after we got the plate off the bottom we found there was stops of the frame that was bad; and to zet a 2918 in there to do the renewing, to renew the plate, we had to juggle the tanks around in there, move: them from place to place so we could work. Q. You say. some repairing was done on thé frames "there? A. Some slight, on a few frames;: ‘put in a few patches.. | Q. The space where these «water tanks were, was that . forward of the space where the gasoline: tanks were? >O>O> A. ° Yes, it was forward. Q. Were the big cylindrical gasoline tanks of the Semi- nole taken out of the boat at that time? No, ‘they ‘weren’t taken out. Were the water tanks taken out? Just moved around? Just juggled them around so we ‘could work around them, undérneath. _Q. There has been a suggestion, Mr. Thibault, that the gasoline tanks were taken out and laid on the ways beside _the ship, and that the bottoms of at least two of them - were taken.out and replaced. Will you tell us the fact with respect to that? . _ A. No, we didn’t take them out or do any work on them. Mr. Bots 3 Will you read the answer? Es (The answer was read by the reporter.) : (By ‘Mr. Matteson): Q. Was there any work done in the way of raising the level at which the gasoline tanks of the ew, -stood — at that time? A. No. Q. “Now Mr. Thibault it has tien: senate that Mer- rill- Stevens did not = any proper or. a¢curate recosd P > POO Pe! ee ee ey ae ey, 2919 of the tine of the ; men iteuiianen on that sie or pen they did.’ -Will ~~ tell us whet records were kept at _ that time? . ' me Mr. Underwood: font ss We object to that on the ground that the records are the best evidence: ‘ Mr. Botts: We are riot asking. the contents of the records. ‘The Court: : | Overrule the objectign. A. . Go cand? Q. ‘Yes, go ahead and tell us. what the records ‘were. A. We sage a —— there of “daily time ~ for each man. - Mr.: Underwood: I object to the system; the question goes to the records kept on this particular job... ‘i. Matteson: I think we are - entitled to seers the sy stem. Mr. Underwood: it I don’t think so. ae) ‘The ae “You would have to tie it - Up.” Mr. Matteson: ‘ _ Yes, we are going to ‘tie everything uP as. far as it can be. » 2920 Q. Well let's confine it to this particular job, Captain. 3 - Will-you tell us what system you had with respect to, ; keeping time and records of the work done on that job? — A. Each man made out a daily time slip, with. ie. description of the job that he was. doing, ‘and the time that he, spent on” that job. His foreman that was di- | rectly over him -took the time slips each night, went - over: them; .if. he found ‘any discrepancies he would - straighten it up with the man; and they were turned into ‘my office and I went ovér them. If there was any nota- tions on any of them slips, there was any question about. it, it was straightened _up before it went into the Ac- _ counting Department; and by ten o'clock the inspector on the job got a copy of the previous day’s work,— | — time and materials, storeroom slips and-so on; so if there . “was any question about these things, they was there to catch it.. And if\they were all right, there was no ques- tion about them, he okayed the slips, and he kept one* ‘copy, the other copy went into the office. And as I under- | . stand it, the bills. was made. up from them seas fh time slips. ene syeres sie , Mr. pda : be | I object to what he understands as to how the bills: were made up, and move to strike it-out? . The Court: | You mean to say ‘Mr. Thibault that that ‘was saiaaibe _ done, or what you understood was done? A. It was dohe; there is no question about that. It: ‘" was done. r tera The Court: - | You are not just. deecribing the ——. but what was _ done-on the Seminole job?.. - ee A. The bill was made up from them daily reports. 2921 The Court: 7 Overrule the’ a etia “(By Mr. Matteson): Q. Now to whom did you refer ‘when you ea _inspec- tor? A. Captain re the owner’s representative on the. , job. . : ° : * Te Cae ce ; ee : _ Wait a minute, read that answer. (The answer was read by the reporter.) , es (By Mr. seine ' Q. You said something about at ten o'chock, ‘the rec: 3 ords was ready for the owner’s representative; what. did. you mean by thgt? ag | Ties Mr. Botts: ©: pees ‘. ’ ‘He said by teir o'clock. : A. -We iried to have ‘them,—thé office tried to have ‘them out by ten o'clock, so that they would know what time to go into.the office to. get them; and if they didn’t get in there Shortly, _ tae were hunted up and handed | a copy of it. Q. Ten o:clock, what day? A. Every" day, of. the’ previous day’s work. Q. I show you these documerits, comprising Exhibit 4-L. I* think you have- séen those before? A. . Well I don’t know whether I have seen them be-— fore or not. If there wasn’t any question, these bills ‘would never come to me.- These originals was made up— Q.- I am not referring to the system at the time. - Have. you. seen these before, these particular papers, be- | . fore this minute, do you recall? _ A. No, I don'’t.: | out. - ‘Mr. Underwood: Be er eee bacesiut to Exhibit ‘a. geeks ae Q. “Well then, will you took at them at: ‘tell us 5 whet they - are?. These are ‘copies of .our daily time slipa: the hours, daily time of each ‘man, independent: When they make up these bills, they take ‘it, if it is carpenters, two car- enters or four carpenters or five carpenters, they would , ’ take the total time and ‘put it on the bill; otherwise it. would be too long, to. bill each individual oe on the bill. Q. Now “Mr. Thibault are those the bills saipiaeiiice the work that was done on the Seminole in the latter part of 1927, beginning June 20th? - A. Well we hauled that boat out first for a aan. originally, in the spring some time; I don’t know whether it was.April or May, somewhere along there; and we - made a survey and ordered materials. Then the boat didn't come until the latter part of the summer; August I guess—or September: . It says here, — 25th hauled Q: Mr.” Thibault I call"your atienkion to the fact that as you go through these bills, under the labor charges, where you have, classi ication of labor, such as carpenters, helpers, electricians, boilermakers, or what not, in practi- ~' _ cally every case thére is after the labor. charge, a state- ment evidently—-for.instance the word, staging, after car- . aren what does that indicate?” A. Well that is building staging; that. there woule be 7 staging, building: staging to do the work on. : Q. Did these designations. indicate the kind of work on which the men. were engaged during the time for _ which the charge. is made? A. For that day, yes. - 2993 Q Well teking these bills ‘as a whole, do the dute- - nations placed on the labor charges in the bill, correctly ' show the work that l was done by the men? . A. Absolutely. . : Q. . Now it has. pane suggested Mr. Thibault on this particular job, Merrill-Stevens had no supervision of the men, but simply assigned a.certain number of men to Captain Nelson, and that the work of the men was done under the directign of Captain Nelson. Will you tell us what the fact is with respect to that? A. The work was done under my supervision. I didn’t see. every rivet that was driven ‘or every hole that was | drilled or every nail that was driven. We had foremen - on the job,.and while Captain Nelson was the owner's representative, and inspector on the job, we done. the work and put in the kind of plates that~he designated. .. As-far’as having direct charge of the men, Captain Nelson didn’t have any direct charge of the men. — —. | _ Q And who kept the records of what ae men were doing? © . A. .Why as I say, we kept them: aan, ‘made up’ these daily time slips, and gave: Captain Nelson a sopy of them every morning. Q. .Are you still: connected with Merrill. ‘Stevens? A. No. HN Q. When did you sever your ‘connection with them? A. The spring of ‘34. Q.. Do you know where the original records tren which these bills were made up, are now?, Do you know? A. No, ‘I do not. _Q. Mr. ' Thibault, if the Seminole tanks, it. the gaso- line tanks of the Seminole had been removed from the vessel and deposited on. the slipway, and was later re- Stored to the vessel, would there have been any -charges that Merrill-Stevens would have made for that. work, that .. would have appeared om: Geter. a 2924 \ - A. " Absolutely. | . Q. What sort of changes? Lol eiet ‘A. Well, charges the same as on this other one. “Charges for hoisting, if we had had to femove plates or frames te. get them in), it would have been mentioned. If we did move them out, there would have been charges for steaming,—freeing from gas, which we had_no facilities for doimg; we would have~had to send them out. We _ didn’t ‘have steam enough tq do. it. Q. You would have had-to send the tanks somewhere else? A. Somewhere where =~ hac a | steam plant, to steam them. Q. Would there ae any eines tor transportation of the tanks? lag es stk vi Ae Absolutely. | Q. Would aay be any. charges for. steaming the tanks? A. Absolutely, there would. At Q. About steaming the: tanks, what does that amount to?. ; Well they say that clears them. : I mean, how long do they have to be steamed? Well, that: is problematical, I guess. What was the usual practice? I have never seen any that were steamed out that . ae aaah was absolutely safe to put. fire around them. —__ Q. . Well is dove the usual method of freeing them for - .. work? - | A. I think so, yes. _ Q. Do yeu know how long it takes to steam them? A. No,‘I couldn't say. . Q. Do you remember Mr. Simimon? A.’. I. believe I have seen him, I don’t know that I ever spgke to the man in my life. I have heard of © hin: ; iS > OP O> 205 ‘a Could the eunattia tanks have been removed from the Seminole, through the side or bottom of the vessel, _ while on the ways; without the side plating or the =— * frames or plates being removed? mc ’ A..No, sir, they could not. . Q. Would itvhave been practical to ‘have removed them >» through the bottom of the vessel? - rey A. No. : * : : ° , t a Q. On the ways? ~~ aaah . oS Se . ee ae bgt _Q. Why not?. . : - A. After you got ther, down you had no ‘place to get them out. - Q. You mean the vali A. The keel of the vessel was not over 4) 4,—between -414 and 5.feet off the ground, in thie first place. Q. And, there wasn't room? . A. The railway was there in the road. Q Were any trays made to be ae under the tanks . of the Seminole? A. No, sir. Q Were there any, ‘trays placed under the tanks of the Seminole? | 7 | - A. - No, net at Merrill- Stevens at that time. Q.. Would it have been possible to place trays ‘under the tanks of the Seminole without first remov wing the _ tanks?” A. I don’t: think so. - _ Q. Can you give us any idea with renpect to the rela- tive cost of removing bottoms of the tanks, of the Semincle' and testing—examining the tanks and placing them back and re-riveting them.—the necessary incidental expenses that would be inv olved, as compared with the cost of new tanks? - | A. Wel] even if. you placed : new. cale you would have to go through the same — to take the old Dons out. \.. ai ae ~~ ‘ \ . Me : An ee eons 2926, ae “eo “Without the. ‘aicatiare ra abies she ihe or ‘out, of “.'. +. gourse you would have: that; but- including. the expense — -:, 9) of Steaming, and ‘taking rivets out, re-riveting them, what- © ' . _everwas needed in them, could: you: give us.any. idea of “ ot the relative cost* of that Si eee as + against the cost of if ; Si, tahks? - a Gece pps eee Bey) ee don't. ism that ti can. -|. / Peat Q.- Do you remember whether. there were any zine . plates: placed on the Seminole at> ‘that time? ee A. -Yes, sir. 7 | , } S ?"@. /Can-you give. us. any: idea of “the humber. of them? . : A." No, 'I don't know ‘as I know the umber of them. © : the. shaft logs and over the shafting between om shaft/log ee oe and the, ‘struts; sus over the pegs ; tay a | | “a re-riveted, can you tell us. whether or not the same sized SS rivets. would be. used? A f a we A. No,. sir, they /w ld ‘have, to. ‘be larger rivets. 7° NS Pave. to |be’ a‘ larger fivet? © aie © Reamed for larger-rivets.. tk ee ae ‘would, that be? - fe ‘ / A, ° Well: most” of the holes, when, you dite a rivet, a hot rivet--into a hole, you swell your material enough that” when you drive that cold riyet out of there you de- = j } os s . he . 7 ? Z | ae . : ents ae , ' ee " ; f —— 4 vas . © oe ” ye dex ‘ ig “3 ‘ 7 ’ . . . ° , > \ On ae ‘ es 7 face: that hole more or ‘less; so you would have to ream ‘them and use a larger. Size rivet. Q. Were you at one time employed by the Gibbs Gas. _ Engine & Fower Company’. _ A. Yes. Q. Did you have something to do with , the construc- | tion of the’ Fortuna? A. Yes. . : “Q. What ‘did you Nene to do with that? he "A. Well I was superintendent : of construction, at what ae time, —Gibbs Gas Engine Company... ~°" ~ Q. Do you rememher the type of gasoline- tanks that . “were placed: in’ her? A. They, were brazed steel tanks, ‘called. the Jennie Steinway. poet Q. ‘Were they cylindrical wee Se ie es | ie, Se pte -Q: And they were galvanized, do you remember? A. I don’t remember. . ° Q. -Did--you afterward have something to do with the’ ! building of the Fortuna? a _A. Yes, I-lengthened her out, here in Miami; about . _. seven feet on the ae. pi gare : Q. When was that? A. 25 I secetied fall of '25.. Q.. Was any change made in her gasoline tanks at that " , - time? - peed. 4 Mr. . Underwood: / = Q. Apart from the steel ‘work now on the passenger’s or crew’s quarters, or on the deckhouse? ' A. Yes, I believe we did do some. general. worlgall over; around in different parts of the boat. ° Q. Do you remember what that was? A: No, I. can’t. ember the details of it. Q. Did you do any work on the anchor or the anchor. - ’ chain? , A. Possibly, I don’t know. - Q. Do you remember that? _. A. I don’t remember that, no; I. wouldn't ‘remember . that. little item. - Q.- Draw the tail:shafts? - A. I wouldn’t swear to that. | Q. Don’t remember -that. .What was, the deckhesid ‘of the engineroom constructed of? fa) A. The what? ; ete: Q. The deckhead of the éeiginaroorn. The deckhead; ' do you know what that means?’. | : ‘ ‘A. I don’t know what you mean. -- Q. Well- what was the roof of. the enginerodm con- structed’ of? , | A. .I guess that was a ‘wooden deck, I believe. & Is that your recollection? ' A. - Yes: may have been steel beams. -Q. ‘Were you in the tank compartment where. the gaso- line tanks were? . . / A. |No. ~ Q.. Do you know what ‘the: roof of that compartment _ Was constructed" of? cos “Ne... . . . _— 9936, ee tee \ Q. Do you know. what was a thé en- __—ineroom? A. Nothing I believe except hint had ‘been a skylight ae sometime or other, over the a just an open : deck. Q. Ydéu mean there had once been a skylight there but there was no skylight at ‘that time? ; A. I.believe when she was steam, there was a sky- | light. there. . : ‘oul . @.- But af the time you were in cher, there wasn't any skylight?. : Srivep ..Not that T° remember. ny What was above the tank - compariment? The Captain’s stateroom. You remember: that? : Yes. / = Did Nelson live on the boat while you were work- ing « on her? * A. Several men on the boat; whether they wie there night and day, or not, k don’t “know.. ‘They were on the boat in the day. ; Q.. What other steel wotlk did you do besides steel .- plating?. - A; Why we patched up some frames, renewed som bad frames in the forward end of the boat; put new guar bars around her on the top strake. That-is all the steel ‘work we done. “I think we done a little: rail. stanchion " work; maybe 4 little general repairs, and something like ’ that. I ‘wouldn't remiember them little items. Q. You say you patched up some ‘foment '--A. Yes, forward. Q. Do you remember odelshs frames: those wefe? ; A. I don’t remember which ones, but they were in the forward part of the boat, under the water tanks. . r, Q. Under the water tanks? — Aw, Under the water. ~~ or ‘> generer, 2937 . Q:. Do you remember . ‘whether you patched 9 Ss any frames any place. else? | A. No, I don’t. Q. Sure about that? ' A.. Absolutely. —Q. How long since you have been ae by’ Mer- rill-Stevens? A. I left the spring of ‘34. Q. What was the occasion of that? A. Well I just left, I just wanted to change.’ Q. What have you been erties since that time, Mr. Thibault? | ‘ ge: A... Well part of the time I wasn’t doing niin par- \ ticular; part of the time working on my own hook. ~\\ Q. What are yeu doing now? \ A. Rebuilding a_ boat. ‘Q. Whose boat? : - 3 x Belongs to Peters: 60-foot sight-seeing . boat. Q.\ Do you have a plant of your own now? ~ A. \No, rent space in Nuta’s yaent basin. Serre Q. Where? = Ocal xe A. Nu 's yacht basin. , , Q. How old are you Mr. “Thibault? orl A. Seventy,—past. . Q. I would like to have .it a littie clearer, ‘just what your job was at Merrill-Stevens Sl _ A Weill was General caer eam in ‘shares of all operations in the yard. ‘Q. Were you in charge of the construction work that was going on for Merrill- -Stevens as well] as the _— of . vessels? A. You mean, construction work in the yard? Q. Yes: A. Ne, not in- shiiuiee of it so ‘much, except a that.they were doing. it according to contract, that’s all. ~ Q. Was that your job? . —— a nt ee . See hs 2938 Was your. job. to/ seé hat. number * thre railway which was being const ructed then ‘A, \ Absolutely. - ; -Q. . —was constructed senting’ to the plans? — _ A. “According. to my plans. that I made myself, . _@.. What was this other job that was going on? A | Q. Building them. steel, sheds. perly ‘ constructed? aaa Reems. \ AS Absolutely. | Or oye rk Sp Q. How many sheds were there? $e: _A: Well there was about 56,000 square feet under coyer es “ion there. They are practically all conriected; asad run eee ary rent sheds, but they are ‘all. uncer: = ‘oof, aia Q.* All. steel. framework? | ae ; : A: All steel... . ; | ; Tso ‘/Q. You inspected those things every day, did: ‘you? ~=-- / A. Absolutely. Put in our own foundations, contracted _ for, the erection of the building. . | -Q. Now did you have’ occasion during that summer and fall to do-work on other boats. besides the Seminole? . © -A.- Oh, I believe we did. We always was doing work, on other boats. ; ' Q. Some of them would. be\ afloat I sins A. Some afloat, Some in dry storage, some in: wet. ; storage. rise ned PE —" Q.. You did work ca vessels that were afloat, as ne as oN vessels that. were dry? ° al lay-out platers, that. lay’ out the plates, and fellows to punch the holes, and so on. Q Then if steel work was’ going on ‘elsewhere than on the Seminole, one. foreman~ would -have charge - the . Semingle and. the other — too? A A: No. “a Q. ‘That is not right. Wall what is right?. You tell me. . A. .Well if we had other jobs of steel work going “on, "there would be another foreman on the job. . Q. -Did you have snore than one foreman tnere that fall? SP ae See OME That- all. the steel week. we done. s “Se--Fiom the first of ‘August until the end of: apasene ber, is that right? A. Yes.” : Q. . What was his iinet A. Callahan, or Reinahan; he come out of the Jackson-. a Be ville yards; they sent the steel working crowd down here ~ from Jacksonville. _Q.. .Where is he now, do you know? ; A. I suppose, in Jacksonville, I imagine. © Q. Now you say these men kept their own time? 2s ; ve : at all besides his okay? ; A. Foreman looked over them and okayed them, and if there was anything they couldn't hea he made a no- tation ‘on that time slip. Q. In the ordinary course he wouldn't put on anything but his okay, unless there was some discrepancy? si A. If he was satisfied ‘they were ail right, he okayed | them: if not, there was a notation made on that particular slip; and I took it and the next morning we cleared it up. ‘Q.. The ones there was a dispute about, you looked at? A. I looked at them all and had to okay them. Q. You had to put your okay on every one? _A. Every one. a — . Yes. ia ‘ , Si 2 Nae cea '’Q.- How many would there be in the course of a day? A. According to the number — men. r ~Q..- Well how many? : hey Well we — have anywhere— At what day,are you talking about? —Fix a-day. SoS Suita é ? : (By Mr. Underwood): - 3 Q.. Can you fix a day? © Ais A. Certain’ date? No. —~, againb Q. Well what som an average day be? sisie? many time slips? A, _ How many time slips? Probably ‘about fifty. Q." The Superintendent of the yard looked at every one? A, Absolutely. every one of them. ~Q. What did you do with them? -A. I turned them into the: office; that is —: they. made. the bills out by. Q. Did you ever see them again? i . A. Not necessarily. : Q. Did you have anything to do with the aenewes up — . of the bills? ; ‘A. No, nothing in the world. . Q. You never have ae ‘in the Accounting Depart- ment, have you? A. What? -Q. You: have never been a part of the. Accounting Department, have you? ‘a. Me: %*.. = -Q. T still don’t quite sntieanel’ the purpose of your’ putting your okay on these daily time slips. Were you in a position to check each slip as to the number of hours each man put on each job? Were you? A. Absolutely. - Q. That is to say, if. John ‘jo. wry, ‘put down. eight hours on the. Susie Bell, and his time slip came - to you for your ckay, you would know whether he had: put eight -hours on.the Susie Bell? A. I would absolutely know if that. carpenter had . eight hours on the-Susie Bell; I would absolutely know it. Q.. And you would know it from_what?. A. From my own experience, and knowing how to take care of the men. Q. If you had fifty men in the yard working 4 ona par-- - ticular day, whose time slips ‘you looked over, you would know of your own, knowledge when you came to check “-over those time slips, how many hours each man _ put , .-on each job? A. If I wasn’t sutistied— Q. Is-that right? - A. Just wait-a minute. Q.- Well I.am not asking, you about, ‘if, you are satis- ' fied. Will you read him the question, ‘Please? . A. No, I can’t say that I do. Mei cc! -Q. Well how did you get: to .the plates, under the en- gines, to rivet the plates back on? va \A.. There is plenty of room under there; them engines . are ‘probably that high. 2 a >pperes Practically. about a Boot? © Yes. . A man could sate under aiaie without any trouble? Yes.: ; Since we have been discussing this, Mr. Thibault, . . have you. thought of the names of. any of the other | that were there from the first of August to the end of > December, 1927? _ A. “We had at that time : ecnieiinadaie a hundred boats in the yard; I don’t know that I could.‘ T might offhand Ororearn? the yard was full of storage, at.the time. “2948 , . . c name a few of them. We piobellty had a hundred boats; - 'Q. Have any of the photographs of the Seminole been » shown to you recently Mr. Thibault? A. I think I have seen a couple; some time ago, ‘down there around Nuta’s yard; they was showing some of them pictures. Whether it was Pilkington’s yard, I don’t know; ‘I have seen some of them from — but I don’t re- > member who. -Q. Then as I understand it Mr. Thibault you haven’ = seen the Seminole since. this 7” was done in MOST catty, 1928? A: Oh, yes, F have seen her lots of time. ' Q. I mean, to work on her? ——— _- WA. No; I don’t: ‘know that we ever hauled her out after that, or not. She was hauled out a.couple of times a year; I don’t remember when the last time was. 'Q. You say she had been surveyed in the spring of . 1927? A. ‘Yes, if I remember rightly ‘they. went over it and _we made them up a— . Q. I am sorry, but I am afraid _ reportér is having difficulty: in hearing you. * A. in ania tk Ginee Sox ucla tank GA lan plating and angle bars and so on, like that, which we - , expected, and after we hauled’ out -they found out they '. ‘had. to remove extra plates and had to put double that, if. 1 remember rightly. Q. Do you remember who made that survey? “A. That was made directly under Captain Nelson’ s ' . Supervision. . Q Anybody else participate in it, & as far as you kno “A. He was the man that said what was to come We gave him the men to help him. “ax oa Q Did you go over the job with him at that time, to decide how much plate to get, and that sort of thing? . > e Yr . A Mee I think, if I remember rightly, w we made him up a plan showing the number of plates, so he could submit — to his owner, the number of plates that had to be re- moved. | Was’ there’ a. survey. written up? I don’t remember. ; Wére the plates marked and numbered? ‘They w were on this plan, yes. e How long since you have seen that apt rae ‘Ihave n ever seen it since. Q . |Then you! don’t remember doing any work on the* Sentaaie from the time you f'nished this = in 1927 or early 1928, is that right? ; A. No, I don’t remember. whether we ever hauled het out after that or not. ~Q. Well when did she next come to your atterition. in any particular way? A.: Why I don’t know, unless when she. burned up up there at Lauderdale. ys . Q.. You on reading about that in - the news: papers” I suppose? A. Yes. . Q. Then the Seminole was next pore to your at- tention when Captain Patton ae on you about a model: ago? i | Aw: No, Thad. seén. her every day for the last couple of years. - Q. I mean, ‘the next time you had any conversation about her? A. Oh,I guess I have had conversations about her with ‘different people, in an offhand way I guess; I don’t know. . Q. About the work that. was done in 1927? A. No. | _ Q. You hadn’t considered this 1927 work since » the time . the job was finished, until Patton called#on you? : . A. mt not” ‘in rad bcemcacuec aide I don’t suppose I _ have. . @ pperere! Q. Hadn't discussed it particelenty with h anybody? -A. No. — Q. Well what you have given us here today is your _recollection after twelve years, pppronipately? _A. . Well it is very easy to recollect. Q. Is that right? A. Yes. ~ Q. Unrefreshed by any written ‘doventaie: and you ates . "gan thinking’ about that work for the first. time. when Captain Patton called on you snes a month ago; is that ‘Tight? apes wan Yes. Mr. Underwood: That is ‘all. "Re Diret Exc nination. Lous ‘. By Mr. Matteson: Q. Mr. Thibault you said something about it was ony to recollect; what did you mean by that? , A. Why Dbecanee- th ‘wera job ent of the oninecy’for™ that yard. We had no facilities ourselves for doing steel work, and it was the only real job of steel work that the yard over.done. That's why it is easy to recollect it. = Q. You spoke of: several men being on board the yacht "ot Ce Cl he week wes Conn. Do you refer to merp- bers of crew? —~ , ~ A. Tf remember rightly, there was an engineer aboard, and.some of the crew aboard. Q. Do you reiember who the engineer was a} that time? Sy = A. I. think it was a man by the-name of. Brown. Q. Do-you remember any. of the others? A. “No, I don’t rememiber any of the.crew’s name.- id ¢ sy CARES SARA A eR Mgt ete s |} *« . a ‘ : | ee ; 2951 ‘ ‘ . Q-. Thewe plates that wore renewed of cours ti abe to are these on the outside of ‘the oy. phetegy absolutely. . Q. On the outside of the frames? - A... Yes, absolutely. . , : i RS Mr. Matteson? Be ee: «* That is all. us ee Mr. Gidea: have a man.both outside and — didn’t you? A. Yes. a . er Usderwend: . That -is all. By Mr! Matteson: PA», _ Q. Of course, whenéver you do any eaninn- you have ‘to have a man on each side? Sos A. If you rivet, ‘yes. a ick Bh, e Q And the man on one. side operates the hammer, _the.man on the other side holds— _. ° . : A. The “holder-on”. - *Q. ‘So thé “holder-on”’ holds the tool against the rivet, to hold it in place? : ¢ AL rg head of the’ rivet. | * ia 4 Mr. Mestenns: : 2 at PR bs | That is all. Sy 3 é oe ah (Witness excused.) ‘ ; a k - : Sa) ® '. In order to rivet the- plates on the outside, you have to" 4026 _ Thereupon ee BROWN was recalled ‘as -- me . Witness on behalf of Libelants, in rebuttal, “and further: testified as follows: Direct Examination... ‘By Mr. ih basis -Q. “Mr. Brown, were you en the Seminole in 1927 when | the Seminole. was at the Merrill-Stevens’ yard for ‘some - work, in the latter part of, that year? A. “Yes, Samy © -Q. What .was your position’ ‘there? _ A. Chief Engineer. : Q. Were you there during the whale period of the re- pairs, in the litter part of 19277 ; “Ah. Fe ee : : Q. Did, you receive pay, were you on the payroll I mean, of the Seminole, at the time? . A.” ¥es. Q>. ‘Were there any. other members ‘of the crew on _ board” : A. Yes, ‘there were several that I remember ,—that I recall. ° ~-/.. : -Q. Do you. remember who they were? A. The Captain. and myself, and ‘my oldest we was on.—that I know. definitely.: I couldy’t swear ta the other names, but. there: was several of thé deck crew ‘retained. /Q. Was that =e the whole = fala of a, A. Te. * : Q. In the course of sbéut 2 what part of the year did that work begia, do you recall? /. er ees don’t: recall exactly; along during: the ‘summer, se it: seems; the latter part of the summer. ; Q:. Now during that period of repairs. there at the | yard, were ine gasoline. tanks of the. Seminole zemoved ae from the vessel at any time? : ae co . 2953 Gasoline ‘tanks? Gasoline ‘tanks. ae i Sa No, sir. &. A Was =the position: of the gasoline tanks anges No, sir. prerer Were the tanks elevated, —that is, put in a higher position, two or three feet? A. No, sir: Q. Was the bulkhead separating the space. where the tanks were, from. the ee. removed? A. Re: 2 Q. Were there any rave installed under the ‘tanks in” the Seminole at that time? A. None whatever; TEMG. that job? - Q. During that job. . A. -No, sir. - | a Were the engines nemayed, —the raain engines of the | . - Seminole? — A. The: main engines were. not moved; no, sir. --Q. Tell me what work was “done in’ and about the -engineroom ‘ during the ae of the - ‘Tepairs that I _ speak. of? A. I pulled the generating set, which is a small Win-' | ton, from under the Engineer's room, and:set it out just to the port side of the port main engine. Of course that necessitated making new timbers ‘for her, and bolting it. in; but that was just simply moved. from: one position to the other, to ‘make it more accessible. Put in a-new . _ workbench; and-a small. auxiliary set wds built,—I built it out of some pieces I-had around there,—an old engine and an old motor that I used. . '’ *-Q. Who did the work in moving the oniicann’ A. Well I did-most of it. myself, with the help of a. ‘ man from the yard, for a while; possibly two men for a_ . while; that is the yard,—the Merrill-Stevens furnished. I—— would say one or two men for one or two days, me: - for a short time, to. help on the job. -Q Any of the inline of the crew assist you? A. Well I worked that boy of mine wherever I could - work him; he was poasibly helping too while | we were Beg mae Ks In connection with the moving of the generator, ry that involve any ey or changes, ‘anything else in the engineroom? A. No, 1. wouldn% say any changes that did mot affect the generator itself. Q: Was any electrical work done? A. The generator wires were possibly a ceptete out, a matter of seven or eight feet. : —Q. Was that all? ‘ _ A. .That’s all. “ : Q. Were any sheng made in the — piping from . | the tanks? — A... The only change in that generator of mine, tekite - out the old lirie and running. a_new line to the new ‘posi- tion. Q. Was the gasoline piping renewed at that time? A. That part was; I put in copper — as I remem- ber it. ie : Q. For the generator? A. For the generator. Q. Any. of the rest of it — A. No, sir. Q. Prior to the time that you: went to Merrill- Stevens for repairs, had you had any difficulty in the gravity’ feed of gasoline from the tank to the main engines? | A. No, sir. es | /Q. Was thé side plating of the ‘Shninite remove in - the way of the engirleroom and tank space at that time, — any of the side plating? A. -No, there. was no: side. plating removeg.” Q.--Was there some bottom plating? sein ve — A.- Yes, part of it... tah Ee PORT hy Aan of 2955 Q. Were the floor frames or plates removed under the" —— or tank ——— cee A. No, sir. Q. With the side plating in place, and the floor frames 4 and plates in place, it: would have been possible to re- 5 move the gasoline tanks from’ the Seminole oP the bottom or sides of the ship? . A. No, it wouldn’t: — : Q. Was any work done on the gasoline tanks at all oe that time? A. None whatever. | : ‘Q.° What construction of the vessel was over the tank _Space or the space where the ‘gasoline | tanks were, can you tell me? _ fa: A. Amidships there was the after end of the. forward _ deck house, which was used as a Captain’s cabin. > Q. Can you point that out on aes — which we have here, Phipps Exhibit A? A. There is. your tanks, erigineroom and the. tsinks; é across here would be the Captain’s room;.it set directly above here. It seems. to.bé a little bit long,’ but the Captain’s room would come right about in there some- where. That may be just right; I guess it is. “ Q. And the Captain’s room to which you refer is ‘the | room that is marked “Captain’s Stateroom” on the plan, on the upper half of the sheet, is that right?’ ‘A. That is-right.. This is ~éai forward deck. house; or _the.music room as we called : a _Q.. That is forward of the Captain's Stateroom? A. - Forward of the Captain’s stateroom: and this. Cap- tain’s room extended back to the smokestack, which .we installed at Palm Beach; we installed a tvilet and wash. stand and shower bath and the smokestack; that extended — out in here. — ; Mr. Dahiwbed: _ In the engineroom. ' 2956 -@* » Was there any ‘opening ‘threugh the tank. space to the Captain's roont or the deck over the tank apecet = » Ae Q. Was any part of' the deck or the Captain's cabin, ever the: tank space, removed at tate time, during this period ‘of repairs? ; - A. No, sir, there was none of this removed; no, none of it. . Q. Was there any means of access to the tops* ‘of the . tanks through the Captain's room or through the - deck, over that space? A. . No, sir. Q. No way of getting at them at all? A. No‘'way of getting at them at all. . Q. Was there any. way in which you could, get. at. -the air vent-lines on the tops of the tanks to do -y a work on them or inspect them? A. No, sit; they were forward of the engineroom bulk head. Q.. And. under ‘the Captain’ s — er the deck, as you described? A. > Yes. Q. It has been suggested Mr. Brown that during this - - period, between midsummer .and the end of the year, . _ while these repairs were under way,. that the’ gasoline tanks were removed from the vessel and that two of them were laid alongside of the vessel, on the ways, or on the dock, and that the bottoms of at least two of them were removed so that the interior of the tanks could be examined. Will you tell us what the fact: is with es to that? . A. The .anks- were removed and placed?—I think it has been covered, hasn’t it?) They were not removed. Q. They were not removes. Bee Q. Then the work that I described was not ¢ done? A. No, sir. ? cae a oe Ne es Q. During that: period did you ever see a pile of rock or residue or. any other substance from those tanks that was piled outside the vessel in any place whatever? - A. From the sexe Q. Yes. : ; A. No, sir. . . * Q Were the main engines removed— ' A. Removed? | * ’ ; am * Yes, were the main engines removed or disturbed in any’ way? -A. No, sir, they weren't swea even in the engineroom. Q. If the bulkhead between the engineroom and the tank compartment had been removed, was there any- thing in the engineroom: that would have to be moved out of the way. for that to’ be done? A. Move the bulkhead? Q. Yes, if you were. going to move that bulkhead out, was there anything in front of the bulkhead you would . have to move out of the way? A. There was a workbench, and bilge pump; one of -the auxiliaries; log: desk, which don’t amount to much; and a set of batteries, ;—two ‘sets of Edison crpucincs against the - bulkhead. | | How were the batteries fixed with respect to the bulkhead? A. They were in shelves. that were fastened in some way to the bulkhead. Q. Mr. Brown do you x the passageway that ran along the starboard side & this ship beside the engine- room? ‘A. That is ; this one.. Exhibit A? A. Yes, sir. . Q. Do you remember that passageway’? A. ies, sir. ' Q. - Marked “passage” in n the lower diagram on this plan, : Q. I ‘want to ask you with respect to the bulkhead . that ran along that passageway, separating it from the— separating the -passage from the engineroom and from the space where. the tanks were: the. side of this bulk- head, the passageway side,—can you tell me whether that was sealed, or whether there was song — ‘work or . paneling or woodwork on it?: A.. That was a steel bulkhead, with ag seams showing « into-the engineroom; that is the frames were on the .en- gineroom side. It was perfectly _ in the pnareny. : Q. A-plain seal? : A. Yes; yes, sir. Q. Painted I suppose? A. Painted. — | Q. Mr. Brown it hes been TEENS here that on the Seminole there weré four two-inch pipes leading from. the deck above the engineroom down through this passage- 3 way, in the points that are marked with white dots on this exhibit.’ Do you see the ~— bo A. Yes, sir. ane Q. Were there any such pipes,—I might add that these pipes terminated on the deck above, with gooseneck fit- tings, so that they turned over and faced down to the deck, and that the pipes lead down through the passage, to the bilge of the enginercom. “What is the fact with re- ‘spect to that? ° . 9 2 A. They were not on there when I knew the ship. Q.. Not up to the time you left mer? _A. No, sir. Q. Now it has oe ‘hem suggested that there were in the exgineroom of the Seminole, four similar pipes on the port side, leading from the deck above, and finished on - - the deck above in the way I have described, leading down _ into the engineroom on the port side, in approximately the locations indicated by those white dots that appear én that side of the diagram. Will you tell me what the fact is with — to that? ; A. Thay, werd itt -cebia T wes! thoes ae tiga _@. Mr. Brown there has been’ somie testimony about “- the. necessity of priming the engines of the Seminole. Will you. tell us from. your experience what necessity if any there was for priming the éngines of the Seminole? A. . Well they were slow speed engines, air. starter, and it was necessary to give them a little gas in the priming ~ cups, which were furnished, one on each eylinder, to start’ _ the engines. whenever I started up from a cold start. Q. Was it necessary ‘to prime them when they were _ warm or hot? _ A. No I don't remember ever priming them when they were hot. Q Did you find it necessary to prane them when they were hot? - A. ‘No, sir. ef -Q Now. with respect to priming those engines, oni ‘much gasaline would be negate or be used to prime a single cylinder? ' AA teaspoonful would be oiiticlauh, possibly be 1 mare than enough.. Q. What’ did you, use to prime the cylinders with? | A. An ordinary squirt can. Q. What was the capacity of that squirt can? . A. Between a half and a pint; - possibly a half pint Z would be nearer to it. Q And. how many primings could - you get out of a squirt can of that size, for the engines of the — when it was necessary? ; A. > Well-I don’t konw as I ever measured or seas . the number of times, but I would say, several starts. -Q. Several Starts out. of one canful? A. Yes. - , | as | Q. Did you have two cans, two squirt cans in the en= —— gineroom when you were there? . er aa . As Two— a ere mee en eS ae . — Q--Squirt “cans? i) a pee © ‘; A. Oil and gasoline; I only had one gasoline can.. Q. In connection with that work at. Merrill-Stevens in the summer.ang to the end of the year-in. 1927, can you tell. me whethét the cabin on the after upper deck was built at that time? _A. No it wasn’t built at the s same time we did the bot- tom work. “Q. When was it built, do you know?» . A. I couldn't give you the date, but it seems it was the summer: “previous. Q. Was there any cabin built on the Seminole in con- nection with this work at Merrill-Stevens that year, 1927? = A. No I don't. remember any. Q. Have you made trips on the Seminole to the Pilk- ington Boat Yard at Fort. Lauderdale? | é ees A. Yes,-I think, one. Q. And can you tell us approximately the difference from the mouth of the river to Pilkington’s yard? . A. Three miles would be a fair estimate. -— oe ' Q. Do.you know a place. ‘there called the Bend,—re- ferred to as the Bend? — ) A. Below town, or above town? 7 Q.. Well I imagine it is below town: Mr. Underwood: I object to that as leading’ A. ‘Well there is a Tarpon Bend below town, ‘and there. _is another big bend; I don’t know Which one he is refer- | ring to. . a Q. Let's call it the lower ‘head. A. That is Tarpon Bend. ; Q. That is above the mouth of the river? ‘A. That is above the mouth of the, river aac a ‘short distance. - Q,° Can you give | us an estimate of the amount of gaso- line that would be. required to navigate the Seminole ~ FFor the-meuth of the river to Trees s Boat Yard? 2961 : A. ‘ot over twelve gallons; I wouldn't think it “would take th.t much; but I wouldn't say over twelve gallons, -- "depending on conditions: -- BSS Powe -Q. Would it be? Ree A. T couldn’t say if it was eight or nine badd have the exact specification of them at one time, a _ wget | been quite a while ago. . ew : 'Q. Is that about right? = La A. I would imagine that is a little bit sides it. ange thing. It may have been a nine inch bore, if weiwere just guessing’ at it. ae de Q. How about eleven . inch ‘stroke? te hat about right? - A. Yes it could have been a twelve inch stroke: it is “quite a throw. _Q Would you say that they weighed about! 10 600 pounds ‘apiece? dT” 4) A. I wouldn't A I have got no way to estimate the _ _/ weight. ; : Q. ‘You are not familiar enough with such engines to” im | approximate, their we’ ight? - 2964 * ‘ Well I don’t sl that I am not familiar - enough, but I wouldn't make’ a guess at the weight of those en- - gines, not. knowing ‘the weight of them. Q. Do you want to say whether 10,000 pounds was ap- proximately right, or do you know? > Mr. Botts: I. object - to satin he has. answered the question once. : ' The Court: Well he is on cross examination; he is testing his knowledge. I will overrule the ee ‘A. Weil that would be about five ton of engine, ten tons complete: Why if ‘we want to get at the weight, why. - we are guessing pretty close. That is all I could\say. Q. Were they good engines? —. A. .For their time of beingSuilt. 7 _Q. Was there any better engine at that time? ‘A. ‘I don't believe there «was. " .Q. Now in ordinary operation in Florida waters, while you were on the Seminole, did you observe any movement ‘of the cabins on deck when she was going up and down? A. Ordinary operation? Q. Going up and down. the Miami River? A. Oh no, ni: Q. Up and down Biscayne’ Bay? A. No. . Q Going down to the Keys, fishing? A. No, sir. : Q. That was something that happened under whet kind | of circumstances? A. In a seaway. Q. Now you spoke about this after. cabin being in- stalled; do you think that. was in the summer of what : year? ° i : 2965 A. I think, -as you ask, it was. in the summer of. 26" It‘seems to me that: it was .put on before we made the - trip to Andros Island, whieh was made in July of ‘26. . Q.° Where was that doffe? ° A. Merrill-Stevens, as I remember ‘it. ~- ‘Q. What else’ was done there at that time? _ A. Sometime during that change-over; without having _ _ the exact dates, the cabin space below was.all rearranged. © Q. Anything else that you remember?. . ‘A. In the-line of work at any time, you ‘mean? Q. No; _anything else that you remember was done = * about the time this after cabin on deck was installed? © _A. Well it seenis that it was along.about that. time, ' which may not be’ the exact—the same job, the forward deck house was changed a little bit; it seems .it was _ lengthened, forward, mat I don’t. remember the exact date on that. Q. Idon’t quite IRM tes what it was that was leng- thened Mr. Brown. A! The forward ‘deck ‘house. / - Q> Any other work done at that time, thet: you recall? _ A. The only big job that I recall. Theéte. was a boat _ deck put on there in the plage of the old canvas awning, — - Sometime .about the time that work was done; whether _ that was done at Merrill-Stevens or Palm Beach, I can't . recall. , Q: What was the shape of ‘the water tanks? ° ‘ A. There was three water tanks, rated at 500 gallons -- each, that were*approximately three feet high, an:? what- ever size it will take to make about 500 gallons; which was seven or eight feet one: way and: three of them me in the '. forward bilges. Q. They were. “flat bottoms na flat tops? Re: Flat bottoms and tops and sides.. Q. Rectangular tanks? i _. we | Xs: ¢ gee 2966 5 @. “Were there. ariy cylindrical water tanks? A. NO af Q. Do you know of what the deck | over the tank ‘com- partment is| made? . ; _ A. No;-:the floor of the Captain’s room was wood, “which was over it; ‘and the deck on either. side was woe; canvas covered. ¢ * Q. Do you’ know whether that was set on * steel, or — not? : A. Not can't. Say. Q. What was the. Seminole’s crew. doing at Merrill- Stevens when ‘she was there the summer of 1927—and, fall? ‘Chipping rust; cleaning up in n general. ’ - Quite’sure about that? st Yes. If I hadn't been I wouldn't have said so. Well do you remember ‘what .you testified about _- when you first came on the stand last March, about the - time you left the Seminole? _ ALT eame back the next day and corrected that, if I ~ remember, sir, Q. I didn’t ask you that. whatever, and they had _. ‘ everything cleared up. And in a week or so after that, -- Willie Baker and his boy.and my boy, several of Willie Baker's friends—I don’t know how many, and myself, took the boat to Lauderdale, tied het up at Pilkington’s. grorereres 2969 We got up there and left. her there, and we all came back, And I went back the next day; I think Captain Baker went back with me; we went up there and started laying@her - ‘up. ; Q. That was in 1928? . A.° '28. We started laying the boat up.in Pilkington’s shed. We took down one of the masts, or, maybe—yes; and: backed her into the shed.—-No, we headed her ‘in the — ‘shed that time; and I stayed on her for about a week, lay- ~ ing up, with the understanding I was to be with her. And Willie Baker and Mr. Sigmon came up there I think it was a Saturday, told me to pack up and get ready to go ‘to town with them. So we went. right on to town. and they paid me off. So I didn’t know what it was all about, I couldn't find out. what it ‘was all about, and I requested an audience with Mr. Scott; and they would not tell me_ anything, and wouldn't. even let me see Mr. Scott. Did you ask Mr. Simmon what it was about? ‘Yes,- sir; he didn’t know.. What did he say? He didn’t know. | Did he say he didn’t know? He ‘said he didn’t know. ‘You tried. to get to see Mr. Scott? I tried to get to see Mr. .Scott, and Mr. Scott. was always too busy to see me. Q. You never did see. Mr. Scott? | A. ‘Not. after-I was let out.. . Q. Well this work at Merrill-Stevens in 1927 as you remember it, began in the summer and was —— in the fall, is that right? A. Late in the fall, I would say; I don’t remember just what month. Q. I don't want to get into a quarrel with you about - when fall ends and winter begins; but, about when? | ‘A. It seems to me we were off by Christmas, but I am not sure. 2970 Q. Do you: remember whether you were still. there ‘at _ Christmas? i A. No I couldn't say. ' Mr. Bibowest: ‘That is: all. Mr. Matteson: oe That is all’ (Witness excused.) 4049. Thereupon: GEORGE. F. KLEIN as a witnes: _on behalf of Libelants, in rebuttal, was sworr. and’ testified as follows: Direct. Examination.- , By Mr. Matteson: What is your(full nar .¢ George F. Klein. | Feet What is your occupation? we Iron. worker. : _° “And how long have 3 you been engaged in that oc- . cupat tion? : A. About fifteen years. Q.. “And who do you work for now? ‘-A. A. L. Hardie, Hardie’s ‘Tron Works. QQ. What other concerns have you" worked for? ~ A. -G. M. Dykes; Coral Way Tron Works; Hull- Molton; Arrigoni.. Q. When you say, iron work, what: ies that include? _ A. Well’ general blacksmithing; general . repairs © “on: everything; welding, acetylene, electric. Q. Soldering? . A. Soldering. go>rore® 2971 Do you operate—do you do punching of eet 3 Yes, sir. Drilling? Drilling. All kinds of iron woikt That is right. ~ | Do you work in copper and bronze, too? That’s _ right. Are you familiar with tank work, too? Do a little of it yes, sir.’ Ls ; Did you accompany us with the Court when we wesit out to cae Seminole in October of this year? eis - A. I did. Q:. And did you observe the tank that had been re- . moved, in place, and laid on its al at the forward part “of the Seminole? A. Yes: oe Q. What did -y2u observe with respect to that ini: with respect to solder? A. Well I noticed it had been soldered up maybe about _ eighteen inches on the side there; and penaer in places - on the bottom | os - Q. Well now was there any “evidence of solder above the eighteen inch place that you speak of, on the side of the tank? A. Nol couldn't say ‘that there was. 3 Q. It has been suggested here that there may have | been solder on the side of the tank above that place, on . the side, and- that it was caused to run off by the heat. of a fire through which this tank went. Will you tell-us - what you know, about the effect of heat in bce, sold- er from a soldered surface? A. -If they had been soldered -all the way up, it would have shown signs of solder on it yet. - Q. Why was that? ~ 4 A. Because in my cases where I remove solder, you ; have to use a steel brush, with heat, to remove - the solder. y LPOPOPOPoOre asia Q.. What.-do you mean oe heat? -A. With a torch: — Q. You mean that’ you stiiaigs to remove ‘it with a blow torch? . A. That is right. - Q. You have to use— Ao steel brush in order to knock it off, ‘when it is. i hot. Q. In other words, it does ‘not run off readily? A. . No. Q-: By that, do you mean that none of it comes off, or . that you can’t get it all off? os "A. ,Well yes some of: it will come off, but you still have . your tinning on there; you have to tin: it first in order to _ s6lder it.. Q.* And is that what you have to remove with a: wire brush? . \ A. Well a certain percentage of that yes, sir. Q. You spoke of soldering, that you observed in the bottom seam of the nk Tell us just what you observed there. ; ‘A. It was saldeced in. places; it wasn’t soldered com- x pletely. around. : Q. You mean the. solder wasn't there when | you ob- served it?’ A..-That'is right. : Q. ‘How extensive were the places where solder won't there? A. What is that? © ; : Q. How extensive were the places where. solder wasn't i: there? : Na A A. Well there was clases that would average two and three inches there, that wasn’t soldered. . Q. Did you fotice the rivets around the bottom seam of the tank, as to whether they had been soldered or not? oy No I don’t think they were. . . ‘ ~ talking about fresh work, now. . A. Soldering would have ‘a bright salir to it; where’ your -welding, if you are welding two pieces of -iron to- — ? gether, you have. the same color as. iron. Q: Is there any. other aifterence in appearance’ between | solder and welding? : : A. You would have a bright color and a dark color. Q. Any difference in the surface that is produced, —the . kind of a surface that you get? ae A. Why you would‘have a rolled one if you weid. it. ‘Q. ‘What do. you mean by a rolled edge? ° A. What we call a bead; you would have a bead’ on. there,—a rough bead on there. fe is A rough bead? te gt Yes, sir. It wouldn't be smooth? . No. * : And solder— . Soldering ‘would be smooth. preororel A. No, sir, anybody can tell the difference. Mr. Underwood: ; I move‘to strike that out, what anybody could tell. I don't think I could. . -Is there any difficulty in telling the difference be-. a “tween soldering and welding? - \ : wes - — . LaF a Mr. Matteson:; | That: is a kind of an expression, if your Honor please, — that expresses the witness’ view on that subject. «- The Court: 7 | It is clear enough ‘ the Court, but it may be subject toa technical i strike it. — m ' Q.. Was there any welding on the tank, that you ob- served? , — A. No. Q. Had the tank een coulked, could you tell? A. No it heotanade been caulked. The Court: -You mean this difference is sess visible? Lan Beg pardon? The Gourt: Je _ The difference between soldering and welding is’ plain to see; is that | what you mean?. — - A. Well it is plain to see. Soldering, why it shows’ up more or less like nickel plating; and welding, you have the same appearance you have in your tank.. You can take a pocket knife and cut soldering -off; where you cvuldn’t if it was welded. Take a scat of glass ‘and scrape it off, for that matter. = (By Mr. Matteson): one ; ‘Have ygu ever done soldering on a “steel tank? - No, sir.. Of this size? ar he No, sir. ; What is that? No, . ‘sir. In your opinion, would soldering be practical on a steel tank as large as that? : me Lororere WR a reeks I would say no; not on a tank. A. Q.- On a steel. tank? A. No. °Q. Why: do you say that? a __ A. Well-it is never recommended. If it was on brass . or copper it would be different. 7 Mr. Matteson: 3 tetas Se That is all. ; Cross Examination. By Mr. edened: Q. You say you are employed by Hardie’ s? A. Yes, sir. ; . Q. . What is your job there? A. Well I am more or less looking after all the work that comes. in ‘there. ~@ a an sorry, I am having difficulty in understanding you: A._ Llook.after more or less all work in the ities mo 4 -Q. You mean by: oan, that you do it younnent? A... ¥es, sir * Q. You handle the tools yourself? — A. That’s right. . Noa fea Q.. And you work for him at a _weekly wage? A. Yes, sir. — Q. Does he have a foreman in the shop? A. Well no; that is what I say, I more or less take. are of that end of it. I am not considered foreman, but look after his business. ‘He is in. and out, Q. Hardie himself is the boss? A. That’s right. Q. . Any other people that work in that ‘shop? A. Yes, ‘sir. © : iow. many? | 2976 A. Well Sometimes we have four, and sometimes . as - high as fourteen or eighteen. You work with those fellows? . - What is that?- You do the work with those other _— Yes. In other words you are a workman me not a fore- , is that right? Yes. Did. you ever make a galvanized iron tank? No, sir. Did you ever test one? Test water. tanks? no gas tanks. Never tested a gasoline = : ‘No, si 7 Ever test a ‘miiesiteat iron were out of a boat? No, I wouldn’ t say out. of a boat; no. Have you had any ——— —s on 2 boats? St a No, sir. } -You: haven’t done any work on galvanized iron line tanks? No, sir. ° ; When you ‘apply solder, what. tools do you use? ‘Use a soldering iron. That is thé only tool? © The only tool, yes. =) . What else do you use? Use acid. Water reat S And what else? > | ae kes . You clean it off with acid, ‘first? Clean with acid first,: ~— si ‘Then’ you put the solder and the soldering iron ‘to | outline on the spot? : ' A. That is right.. - mt ~Q. What. kind of soldering iron do you use, now? A, — ga peer er eeeee phen)’ er error ere. - / out with an acetylene torch? — > 9977 ‘Where does it get its heat? vee Heat it-with a fire; have a blow torch. You heat it with a blow torch? t That is right. : And then you use it for. enidin' until it cools off? That is right. ° You have seen these. electric soldering irons haven't “» © Pere: a When you put your flame on there, what is it that A. “The tinning will stay on there.” 2 3 > ‘ Qr You. were on the Seminple last mohth, and you saw this tank when the rest of us were out there, and you looked atthe bottom? —— or ‘natalie g A. ‘That i: is right. my oii 3 “Q. Met, more: or less? . Pe 5B fhe Wes i 6 Tata ae ee cn Q. Did you observe that ted did not one come down ? “ as far as the other? A.. Yes.: Cs * le ee: - obéerved ‘there was a little pore Between # them? - ie of, On you could put your fingernail in there some : places. ‘Q. Now: is it your recollection that there were some places. in that angle that — no solder at all? - A Yes, sir. pnt eae ees Q. “Are you quite clear ‘about’ that? 2 ah aN 2 A: -¥es, sir.. “ Q. “Absolutely ho solder at all? ‘ ’ A. No solder. — J Q. You don't mean that there were no plates—that =e. _were merely some places: that had more solder ‘than RS /- ‘others; or: less than others? [ 0. a - -A:, 1 would, say there was some. places where there ie, had been no solder. see a ‘ mee: -Q. Where did-you take any Measurements of the-tank.: I am pretty sure it was forty-two and a quarter inches; I wouldn’t be positive. Q. Well what is your recollection about that? A. I will say forty-two and a quarter inches. Q. Well your testimony. and answer to Mr. Matteson’s ‘question didn’t give us that “measurement; jit gave us a ‘clearance. You didn’t measure the clearance direct, did you? » Pay es . A. That is what I say, you couldn't measure. the clear ance direct, “because that: was buckled up there. Q . Whether you could or not, you didn’t? A. That is the only point in the-ship where you could really measure the inside of that space there. Q. ,Whether you could or not, you didn’t measuye th a actual clearance itself did you?: A. No, sir, because that was buckled up; you couldn't. t Q. Did you measure the diameter of the. tank? A. I meastired it but I couldn't say what it was, now. Mr. Uiilieiend: ‘ That is all. . - Re-Direct- Examination. By Mr. Matteson: Q. Let me get this home: You said that you measured _ and reached a result, and the clearance was half an inch on each side? sf ee Sa 2984 Q. How did you i get at that? Just what was ‘your process? _ A. .Well I measured the aa, but I ‘can't recall just exactly what the tank was. ei QQ. And then you measured the —. 7 eo A. Yes. Q. And how much difterence was there between them? A.. Well I figured it out where you would have a good half inch: ‘about a‘ half inch clearance. , Q. Well you, mean there was twice that difference: be- tween: the diameter of’ the tank and the width of the com- partment? A. Why you wouldn't have—there wasn't an inch dif- ference between the tank and the space, is what I am. get-. ting at. I- don’t recall exactly. what the tank measured, but I*khow there wasn’t an inch difference between the tank and the space. Q. Did vou notice the size of the rivets in the tank? ss -Three- eighths. Mr. Underwood: } I object to that; not ‘proper re-direct.. ihe Court: Cen, ae cae ‘Well I will overrule. that. f | arn fe ea oe Was. ion any difference in‘ the -size of the rivets "on the side and the bottom of‘ the tank? A, I will say there was. ica seemed to vary. It is hard to say. Q. | mean, the size of the rivets. A. Oh no, the rivets were the same. } Q. Three-eighths? . es A.. Yes, sir., Wis j =a _ Mr. Matteson: Ee That is all. *. \ ' | side. 2985 “ Re-Cross Examination. By Mr. Setewaieelh: Q. You say you measured. the tank? A.- I measured the tank but I can’t recall exactly what the measurement was, now. ~- r * Q. Which tank? ae Set A. I measured the tank that was laying down ¢ on the Q. Where did you measure it? A. At the bottom. . Q: You. don't remember the measurement? A. Nol wouldn't say the exact. measurement; I can’t ‘Tecall. _ Q. Did the i of the rivets measure "three-eighths , inches .across? wees es Yreka tn A. Oh, no. es Q. What measurements did you get on the iat >» A. Well they vary, because they were hot —put ‘in - there hot. Q. It is your opinion that = were three-cighths? me That is right. Mr. Underwood: That is all. ion ( Witness excused. ) . Mr. Matteson: If your Honor please,-I have come to a point where I ~ have got to ask the privilege that has been asked before, on other points in.this case. I have a small point that I want to establish in the record, but the only two witnesses who can establish it are Mr. Dyer and myself. We hate, either of: us, to be obliged to retire- as counsel in the’ case; but. I would like to call Mr. Dyer to testify on this point . 2986 %. at this time; if there is no ‘point to be made on the ground that counsel are involved. Mr. Underwood: 7 Certainly not: oe: px . / 4068 : Ginee DAVID W. DYER as a witness on: ; behalf of Libelants’, in rebuttal, was sworn and testified as follows: sh _ Direct Examination. By Mr..Matteson: Q. Mr. Dver . what is your profession? A. Lawyer. © Qs. Are you a member of the Bar of the Sstate of Flor- A. I am. . | he rate Q. Anda member of the firm of Batchelor & Dyer, of counsel in this case? : A. Tam... Q. I show you yo Exhibit 78 for idefttification, also known as Phipps’ Exhibit Z, which was.offered in evidence in connection with the testimony of Mr. ‘Hawkins on May 9.1939; and ask you if you saw it on that date? A. I did. Q. This exhibit. was also referred to in the testimony: | of Anderson on “May 12.. Will you tell me what observa- | tions .you made in “respect to this, exhibit, between those dates? . A. IT made an shasbeiitais that one night between those. two days, you had taken this particular exhibit to your hotel room, .and during the. evéning both yourself and myself went through the exhibit in detail, and at that Ms particular dime the first two' sheets of the exhibit did not contain any initial over the line, Entered, either on the — SP ess ne ee first: page or on the second page; and the two sheets fur- ther. down, dated I believe June .22nd, 1935, did not have - any” ‘initials above that line. | Q. _Did you again observe’ this ‘exhibit on “May 12, at the time Mr. Anderson was examhined with respect to it? A. I did. ee Q. And ‘what did yes joo in respect to it at that. - time? . ie 3 } .A. I observed that:on ithe tirsé and second pages, above — the line marked Entered, ‘the. initials E. J. A., or whatever they purport to be, were thére,—were on it at that time. ~~. Q. On both the first and second pages, vouchers 103 and a? s: ee A. Correct. © -— Q. Was any record made, that you know of, with re- spect - to the signatures appearing on the various: sheets’ of that exhibit?: _A. There was. | ; _Q.. Will you tell. us what that was? A. -Before weysent that exhibit over to Mr. Underwood's s_ room, on the evening that we were looking it over, you “made a record of the individual sheets, and specified — on that record where they were signed, where they were not signed, where they. were entered, made,. approved, and so forth. Q. I-show you this documet: | Libelants’ Exhibit 109 for © _ identification, taken out of this envelope; ask —_ whether vou can tell me what that is? _ A. That_is the schedule that was made up by you at — that time, that night, in which it was signified what were | on these individual sheets of this exhibit. Mr. Matteson: That is alk— : ao Mr. Underwood: ios Mr. Botts? eps We ate | ? a Mr: Botts: No questions. etes ig eu Examination. By Mr. Underwood: 3 - Q. Did you check Exhibit 109 for-identification. ——- the vouchers themselves, Mr. Dyer? , * You mean, did I check this against this?. That is right. iS I did not, that night” Did you make any personal memorandum of your eraererer, ERE wn et I did not. : Q. What you say is, as I undérstand it, that the i initials E. J.-A. opposite the word, Entered, on voucher 103,.were _not't “thexe when you first saw it? = A. That is correct. Q. You say the same thing about emis saliteed vouch- er 102, voucher 101, and the first page of en 100; is. that right? . -A. No. fk Z ° > | 7 . -Q. You tell me what is right. : f A. I say .the initials did not appear on. .- voucher 103, ' which is the top: voucher; nor on 102, which is the next ‘voucher; nor ‘on two others farther down, under the date - think of June 22, 1935; this voucher, and this voucher. te last two that you refer to on which no initials , are the two —_ constituting voucher *, is Q, 97, 967." A. That is ii: Q. Now of course on voucher 96 there .aren’t any initials today, are there? 2989 | A. No, sir. Q. Then the only dian that % you say : 20: observed in- these vouchers are on 103 and 102? : A. That is correct. re. . Q. Could you be mistaken about. any part of that? 3 A. I don’ t believe Ree : - Mr. Cndacweatl: a I just wish I could tet the tone of aed voice in the re- cord.—That is all. , “(Witness excused.) | oA Se | Mr. Matteson: If your Honor please, if I may re va stand and let . Mr. sx geod examine me. Mr. ‘Underwood: Why don’t you just state it on the seneed: would your testimony. be substantially the same as his? - : Mr. Matteson: . : er the: a ; Mr. Underwood: : ; I will stipulate on the record that Mr. Matteson’ s. testi- ‘mony would be substantially the . same as Mr. Dyers’ on +, that point. ‘ Mr. Matteson: ‘There is just this much about ‘it; Mr. ‘Underwood seems - to think there was: something inconclusive about Mr. Dyer's last statement. -There is nothing I ever was more sure of in my entire life than I am sure of this; and if there is going to be any com:nent made on that point, why I would want to have the privilege of testifying. ~ 2990 Mr. U nderwood: -Place that on the record, if. you “like: I don’t mind. You can be : sworn and testify if you wantnto. The Court: - Whatever you say.— Mr. Underwood: I am perfectly content to put your statement on the. re- _cord, and say that: wouild be your testimony; where you want to do. ~ aeee o. ; . : a eS .Mr. Matteson: . All right. Then if your Honor please, ‘I. would like to add this much, if.it is agreeable to. Mr. Underwood: that _ I did ‘actually make this memorandum and checked as I “made it, and. made certain of its accuracy; and also that the entries in the first column thereto related to initials . or lack of initials opposite the word Entered. . Initials in the second columm refer to the space immediately beneath, headed, Detail Posting; in the third column, refer to what- ever appeared opposite the legend, Made by; and the final 7 3 * column, whatever appeared opposite the words Approved by; on the voucher. That dashed lines were used to in- dicate blank spaces; and that with respect to the first two, the stars indicated my emphasis at the moment, of the — lack of any fe sheets vouchers 102 end. 103. 4 / ‘Mr. ‘Underwood: : 7 Maybe’ we can shorten. that. a- tittle bit: those are. the only two ‘discrepancies that you noted?. os > Mr. ‘Seis eee Aaa et che # Yes. | : ) > atures at all appearing on the first two 2991 Mr. Underwood: ) ; You will remember Mr. Anderson said that he initialed : this one, the top one, as I recall am, ee 8 oe = ne ; ee : Ai3 _ Mr. ‘Matteson: .. . _ That is correct; he finally admitted . that he did that, and denied positively that he did the second one on 102.” } Mr. Underwood: - That is correct. . 4074 - . Thereupon: - JOHN A. THOMPSON was) re- 3 | ‘called as 4 witness,on behalf of Libelants’, in re- ~ buttal, and further testified as § follows: | Direct Scnenination. By Mr. Matteson: . Q. Mr. Thompson you have already’ testified , as to your ‘ qualifications and your experience; so I will just ask you if, as part of your ‘experience, you have had occasion to examine and analyze bills for | repairs on “work on vessels? A. - I have sir. . i | *e And: how much experience of that kind have’ you had? | A. ;Well it. has been more or sist continuous all: ‘through, even up to today. Q. Have you-had a-great deal of that to do? A. Qh yes, considerable. Q. Have you examined repair bills relating to the work ° on the Seminole in-1927, which nas been marked as Ex- hibit 4-L and 4-M? a; A. I examined photostatic copies of them: Q. You did your-work from photostatic copies? ,A. Yes, sir. . Q. You have those copies, havé you?” 2992 \a. :No, I can have them here in the mor ing; -T left them at the hotel Q.\ Will you tell us Mr. Thompson, in ‘summary form what You find as an analysis. of these bills, was the work that was. done on the Seminole, as represented by: those bills? 3 \ _- A. Well erp wien I didn't pay much attention ‘tothe prices.\ I separated the bills, went through them at great lengths, and I found that there were 724 designated * jtems totalling 14.646. hours. — Peta Sane ‘+ QQ. That refers to labor items? - ; A. That is labor’\and material—no, that is Tabor items; that: is right, labor items. I may say ‘that possibly it . . would be—to be meticulously correct, 723; because there was one item that I took the liberty of incorporating ‘in ‘there, because it seemed obvidus to me it was merely an omission on ‘the part of the, stenographer, because there were similar items before - similar items after; but the actual items then would be. 723, if you wish. Of the none-designated items I found six, totalling: 48 hours; that is with the exception oe the — I have just men- . tioned. Q.- What are the items you just mentioned? A: I haven't that note here;' I omer let. a that in the morning, ‘with. the details. Q. When you say, designated, what ds 3 you mean? A. That is that the labor item has specified em | it . the purpose for which the.labor was ysed. a ae er A. ‘The coniparison -of that is io. each hour. not desig- nated, 304 ‘hours designated, or roughly about one-third of one percent of the labor items were not designated. On the whole I think that bill was particularly well itemized, arid fairly clear for ay with reasonable. cyte aay ae go through and check it. ' Q. Well now by going through and chedites up, can you give us an.analysis of the ‘work regpenanted by those bills as —_ stand? ‘ ~ 2993 A. I haven't analyzed them as to prices, at all. What - 7 q I did, I checked to see if they had designated small items; _ for instance, there were 48 labor items less than two hours, range; but there are three items with as low a charge as each with-a designation; and I won't give you the whole . half an hour, and-those are designated. The labor items | were particularly well marked out as: to the job the labor’ was spent -on.. And that covered these 48 labor " ¢tems, each less then two hours, covering .ten separate - trades. So I concluded that as it‘was not one particular’ ’ charge, _it. was a good. many ,—I see :particularly the whole | of the trades in it, it t the large items were -just as carefully Ke tere were 716. items, labor or ~. - . materials, each | than $1.00; and that seems a fairly. good split-up as to the price. There are 60 items of labor and materials each less than ten cents, the lowest being an item for two cents, which is quite a cut of a bill” Ié_ seems on the whole the. bills were excellently designated as to the work they cover,—the part of the work. I then checked up the rivets; there ‘were 2261 pounds of rivets charged, and no three-eighths rivets of any quantity were supplied at ali.. All these fivets were. half-inch or five- eighths. _..«. Q. Could rivets of that size have been used on the gasoline tanks of the Seminole? A’ No, sir. - 5 ete: Q. . Why not? : A. They are too large for the _ of the tanks. I then checked up the zinc plates referred to in evidence: I find they were supplied and machined in two separate batches; the first batch was charged. upon September the 2nd, in a’ quantity of 96 pounds, and the machining on that first . batch was finished on September the 9th. The second batch - was charged up on October 22nd, some six: weeks - ‘later, totalling in weight—amounted to 79 pounds; that — » Was the material on the 22nd, and the labor on that item > a was” finished on, the. 25th, “That ives a total of zie | .. plates of 175 _pounds.. i. *Q If the plates averaged. ‘tour. to five pounds apieve, re _ ~ pow many plates would that make? Y a Sf... Wel if they’: had an average of five, the. iicuoe figure . _ | think, rhéntioned by Mr. Munroe, which I agree with as -r being, a’ fair average of zinc plate for a boat of the size, . that. would actually mean ,35 plates. T have analyzed the " aecounts for the-account of welding rod used; there is a . total weight, with the exception éf a small item I think : in Noveinber, of I believe a pound and .a half, bronze ™~ ™~\ me: ard. »welding rods, —I call them brazing rods,—of ‘iron welding _ rods;-a total, weight of nine pounds. .The. first was sup- z plied: that is a charge, jt would be more correct to Say, _-° beeauses J. only refér to>these bills it was charged'on _ We September .23rd, and that - “was of” ne pound, welding . _ pods: Iiave the details:of thé rest. if you desive them. I. ! “‘chetked up*the sexy -acetylene gas that;was supplied; there '; was_a total charge made of 3520 cubic feet of oxygen and -. 1545. cubic feet of acetylene; the’ ‘proportion is a@pproxi- mately 2,28 cubic feet of oxygen to one of acetylene. There was.none supplied from October—that is oxy- orga supplied ‘from wetober 26. ta November 9, when 220 t ‘the Seminole; I -found that they cornmenced to’ deliver “those on’ October ' T0th, that.is just only four; the actual . delivery of /any of’ them ‘in. quantity" commenced October ~ - ™ feet of. oxygen and 251 cubic feet of acetylene > ‘were. pee: ‘charged. I checked ® up the patch bolts, which T noticed on. 23nd. .Total number used, 5313. The riveting was cém- — c pleted on: the boat on October 25th, with the exception of "four hours on november and and three hours on 1 Nov ember oh Mr Underweid:- ae See atte La Sorry, Mr. ‘Thompson; ‘give me "that first date; riveting finished when? A. On October the 25. i) bers eee ae (2995 ‘ eas a ; . . Rend \ Be Mr. Underwood: a 3. (TR wet? § ae Excepting four hours on November’ 2nd and three . hours on November the. 3rd. 5 : Mr. Underwood: Thank hope ‘ 4 Ee r chi looked - into the. amount of electrical work \ ' . .. | that was charged. I have. -elimjnated from the electrical ‘ _Wwork a certain item that appeared I think on the First or. } ~ Second day; it appeared | obvious - to’ me’ was running | wires for the purpose af carrying on. the repairs. . That “was charged to the boat, but- obviously it was not part ' .. of the boat; it ‘was: wires run for purposes of carrying on repairs: | J have not included that. work in these figures, your Honor. Electrical work actually in connection with ‘ the’ boat. commenced: on Septerhber 27th;. two 40-watt - _ bulb lanips supplied. On~December’ 2nd, 12° feet of fix- ‘ture wire. On January 4th, 8 feet: of high-tension wire. The total cost of those three items amountéd to $2.12. T . . find no trace in the bills, of any other electrical work. ' About the engines, the work on the éngines, a Maxim . «Silencer, that is an item apparently I should think for one br. those smaller engines, was supplied, on August 30th, and labor .was charged on September, Ist. On Octobe: ‘ ‘Ist an exhaust fan was supplied,—I don’t know where for. But" the only labor, engineer’s labor charged in this boat, was charged up on October 26th and November the 18th. / Ort the first date, five hours charged for machinist inthe engineroom; the purpose, is not stated,-more than that. - ', November 18th--there is one hour charged, for drilling brasses. A total - engineer's time on this job was six, hours. I have more détails, your Honor, but—oh there’ ds the piping. As regards the piping, and fittings; there | was.no fuel pipe of any kind supplied, according to these... — that is, from my: reading of them. I havé a com-. oe es 2906. LE eae plete list here of all. the piping and with the exception _ of—I haven't the details here, but I can bring the details. It was all water piping, with a possible exception of 3.89, but Iam satisfied from items in that amount of 3.89, that ‘that was also water piping, or plumbing piping of some - order. The remaining pipe and fittings are all definitely, rail fittings, stove pipe, exhaust pipe, or water pipe. -Total labor 475.78, and. total materials of* 189.29, making a grand — total of 665.07. I think that is all I have here at pre- sent, . es SRL seein at Chee ° - Q.\ Aside fr chese few items, are you able, from your ‘ analysis of th wviils, to tell us , the general work that was done on the- vessel? A. Yes, sir. -I have what I call sequence repairs; I don’t wish to burden the record unduly, but: I will do as much as you wish me to do. Q. Don't go into too much detail, but the denies pic- _ture reflected by the bills. ; A. From The bills, it seems evident to me that the re- newal.of the bottom was contemplated pric r to April 29th, : _ because.on that date she was drydocked/ hauledBut there are items in the bills in regard“ to angles,’ angles were charged up; and .it is possible, if not probable, that ‘certain _ parts of the frames were renewed,—the frame angles. Q. If none of the floor plates, as you call them, were removed from the vessel, wouldn't ° it have been possible to take the gasoline tariks out a the bottom of the vessel? -A. No, sir. a : Wes Q. Do aA bills show what: was : done with the side plat- : ing of the vessel? © A. Well I _wouldn’t’ say that the: bills would show that. The bills indicate that there was a considerable amount of: boilermakers’ work on the sides of the boat: the bills do - - not indicate the exact nature of that work. With the ex. - ception that. they would indicate that a considerable. num- a y, oh A ae ber of patch bolts were . Used after the side plating, was BS dealt with. .Q. What “are-patch bolts? -A. We call them on the. boat ieee are screw bolts, _ extending,—for the purpose of attaching a patch to another plate, or a plate to a plate, instead of riveting or welding, Q. Mr. Thompson you were present. I believe with — counsel and the Court at the examination that was made. : of the vessel in October. Did you at that time observe the side plating of the vessel? Did’ you at that time observe ‘it? : ‘ A. Yes I did. / Q. And what did you. observe with respect to it? A. I found that the sheer strake had been doubled _on’ both. sides and attached to- the original . sheer strake _ by R saci bolts. The Court: What is that term? Sheer what?. A. Sheer strake, is one member of one of the principal girders of a ship. It comes adjacent and near to, and will extend above the main deck of a ship. You have the side ~ plating of a ship, where your déck comes like that, your ‘Honor. Theat first strake from the main; because you may have several upper deck sheet strakes; this ‘is the. main — deck’ sheer strake.- It is attached to the deck plating or the deck stringer plating by means of a gun’le angle, and that is known as the sheer strake. It comes from the _ vold term, sheer, plank ina ey the yy plank, you put the ’ sheer in. Q. As applied to the aah Mr. Thompson what «was . the sheer: strake or plating on the Seminole? we It: was the sheer strake of the main deck of that 3 ship. Q. Was it the topmost: row of plating along: the side of the ship? . : tee ; 4 Teh bce eR ; 6 eenaren em 3001 ~ Q. Now— - Well, no; “as you raise that question, I would like to. add to another answer I gave. T was not, taking into .ac- count the lack of labor, insofar “as labor in the engine-° room; I see now by this further question, about the re- — mov al of the bulkhead, is not indicated inthe Accounts, be-. cause there would have been certain labor by engineers, to remove the’ ies atiached to the tanks. So T would like : . bered 138.) 1. i to add that,—or rather, alter my -reply in that respect; it didn’t occur to me at the time. You never asked me that question outside, and I was totally. unprepared for it. I. answered it as truthfully. as I thought at the time. “I think the accounts do show that that bulkhead was not re- moved, because of the lack of labor items for piping. ‘(Thereupon the hearing was adjourned to be resumed at. 9:15 o’clock A. M. of the following day, to-wit; No- vember 18, 1939. ) e : Saturday, Noverier 18, 1939, 9:34 o'clock A. M. - (Hearing was renineed: aienk to adjournment ‘of the = —_ day. ) Mr. Maticboe: In connection with the. testimony of Mr. Gibbs; I ask crane large em enough and of the right type and suitable, you could prob- ; "ably Hift those tanks out without skids; vou ‘could lift them — out,-and by moving the jib of the crane around, deposit e! ' ~~ . > 308 the tanks on the ground or. on a ‘eid or other wehicle’ for the removal of .the tanks. te any suitable place for — the purpose of Steaming the tanks out. That is assuming,. - ‘T believe you mentioned. that the tanks had ‘to be ce- pared. - Q. ee See . “AS -There would. ot the cost of removing ‘dines tanks to”: that place; there would be the cost of steaming out; there would be the charge’ for what’we Call a gas-free certifi- - cate, from someone who was in a position | to give. such a certificate: There would be the cost of the repairs them- selves, and- bringing back to the ship, and lifting on. . There would be quite a numbef of charges; and replacement of all the piping. It would pied a considerable charge, Oe 20 2: Q. Did you fihd in the bills, any charges of that type? A. My. -Opinion, they are not lca sir; at least ‘I ,. couldyt: disgover..them. Now. from’ your, éxamination of the bills can: you | ‘tell us ‘whether there: is anything there that ould refer. -- to welding of the tanks at that time?” hi Eee Hides ~ - Q. That .is— a) ae ‘A. ‘There is ‘a. charge for idle rods: isa for welding rods; and there are charges for the supply of oxy-° acetylene,’ which I presume was used. - ‘Apparently there . was some welding done; the bills are not clear as to where | ‘ the welding was done.. I may, say in.that connection that: . in my opinion the charges for oxy- -acetylene show definite- ly that most of those gases were used for the remova? of the rivets;- in’ other words, the oXy-acetylene. plant was used for burning out rivets. : : a Q. Why do you say that? . Bete A. I say that because of - the differenze in the propor- . tions of the gases; difference in the proportions of the gases used; it was two and a half to three times, ‘I think, speaking from memory, amount of Oxy base delivered, to i] 9*; . ere ooo the amount of acotyinna delivered. In welding, different ‘welders have .different methods, but: my experience has © ° -been ‘with the a erage welder, that is a welder using _ oxy-acetylene plant, and not electric’ welding,—uses _al- -, ‘most equal. proportions of the oxygen and acetylene. But -in cutting out, that is using-a torch, _" cutting © out torch, .the process, to heat the part you are going to cut out, with acetylene, and then to blow the oxygen, a Jarge quantity of oxygen, through. The oxygen does the cutting You have the two tubes brought up, ‘and you warm the plate . up. and. theh blow a.very hot gas through, and you cut. ‘the plate right through, or cut the rivets through. In my opinion, that form of cutting is never used in repairs where the part that it- has been applied to, is replaced. And I ‘have never known yet of a‘rivet cut out from a _ plate, and the plate afterwards used,’ where that plate was fh called. upon to do any duty‘ in a watertight or a gas tight _ joint. We only use, in- my experience, acetylene for’ cut-- ting 6ut where we are going to discard the plate cut out. Q. . Why is that Mr. Thompson? A. Because: of the damage to the rivet hole: the ma- ‘terial, not the hole itself; I mean the material surround- Ying the rivet-hole. We do not think that you can make a satisfactory job,—that is a tight job, by. using a plate, the ~ . rivet,of which you have cut out -by any ‘cutting torch. . °Q. Well now is there ahything in this bill to indicate— - A. Iam only stating through my opinion, and what has. been my experience all through my life, both here and in _ England. and in Australia; that practice to my Knowledge has been universal,—that is, in my experience. Q: Now, Mr. Thompson, is there anything in these bil!s to indicate whether or- not any soldering 9 was done on the. job at this time? | A. As to labor I couldn’t say; but I do not find a charge | for any solder. . Q. No charge for solder in the bills? A. That is -all I could say. we ; ‘ ae ‘ : é ; as 3010 | Q.- You I believe were present with ‘the Court and: counsel on. board the Seminole when a visit was made * there in October, were you not? : A. Yes, sir.. : : Q. And at that time did you observe the condition of the tank ‘number four, which had been lifted out and placed on the forward part of the Seminole? — ‘A. I observed its condition, exterior: Q. Tell us what you observed? . A. -In connection with. that tank? : Q. Yes, at that time? A. I observed that the seams and: the banoens: that . is another seam, had not been. caulked. = | ‘observed the bulging in: — bottom. Mr. thelereninls .The what in the bottom? A. Bulging in the bottom. ‘That is not a‘ correct term, Mr. aren but it is referred to. Mr. Uiderwoed: ! I just-didn’t hear you. A. If I am not speaking loud enough, please ell me.-—- I observed that the rivets were of: equal size throughout. _I observed that there, were absolutely no marks that would point.to any of the rivets having been cut out; that is any previous rivets having been cut out. I observed— . _ that is, I formed the opinion from my observations, that — the tank had not been galvanized after manufacture; that .in my opinion: the, tanks had been built of grivanized sheets. ¥ Q. Did you find any wviluins of any soldering on the tank? A. Yes, I was going to say, J observed that the tank had been soldered in the vertical seams for a distance of—I. . don't know exactly, but.I think about eighteen to twenty _ . rere red 3011 - é mais from the Neen from: the base; ‘and I themed sf the opinion that the bottom seam had at one time been — completely. around.-I-ebserved that some of that soldering, . quite a considerable. proportion, at various places, had disappeared in places. I failed to observe any marks of soldering or any appearance of soldering had. ‘been present, about theepéaition I stated where the solder- ing Was. Q. -You are referring to the side seam? ’ A. The side seam: I think; apart from the neues observations as‘to its appearance, I I can’t recall] at the mentioned by Mr: ‘Munroe, but I wouldn't deny. that they were there. : ‘9 -What do you refer to as reducing. pieces? Well generally, —on .that particular one? Yes. - Reducing pieces generally? That. one? — . When you speak of reducing pieces— piece.: Q. You spoke of a reducing piece, I just want to know what you had in mind. when you spoke. A. The reducing piece generally is for the purpose of reducing, —of using a ‘smaller pipe than was originally -intended. 8 -Q. You refer to-a pee piece—_ - A!' In connection with the tanks, I mean: Reducing : pieces are used in other connections where you don’t need so large a flow from a main pipe; you have branches where you don’t need so large a quantity, then you use reducing pieces to bring the. large pipe down +o the pipe you are’ going to use on that branch. I meant -to speak of the reducing pieces given in ev vidence: am I allowed: to?” I Giant observe a reducing 2% _ moment any other observations I made. Pérhaps I ought _ : to in fairness mention that I did-not observe that the tank . had been fitted with reducing pieces in the bottom outlets, oe a : — — “ piesthie > to remove the rivets by cutting out, ‘without leaving: marks—I .say ‘it isn’t, “but | _ Suppose jt had and that those rivets have been. renewed ~ _ for some other . reason; good -practice calls for the re- ‘-amering of the rivet hole of any tank that has had any, service, because the material of the plate around the rivet * - hole invariably rusts, and requires to be removed before a yivet can be put in,—a new rivet. The new rivet then is of a larger size. In that case, those were three-eighths ‘riv ets; I. think seven-sixteenth rivets would have’ been | “used. In other words, you would have seen the difference — - between the size of the rivets at the bottom of the tank, and the rivets that. Th in the tank originally. - Q: Assuming Mr. - Thompson that the rivets around the bottom seam, fastening. the bottom to the tank, had ‘not been removed with a cutting tool, but had been burned - out, would: there be any difference. then? A, Well I think I have already ‘said that I have never used a plate from which the rivets were removed by torch’. I. wouldn't dream:of using it. I think the marks, if.one did use sucha plate, the marks would be still moreé-evident, _ you would get evidence of burning; and I couldn’t under- stand anyone having any knowledge of plate work,—nct tank work, only plate work, using such a plate for such a job. I do not consider that, anyone would remove those - rivets by burning. Q. What is the effect ona metal. of burning out a riv et? A. Well I think .in burning out a rivet, burning out a_ series of rivets, you must inevitably flow the metal on the ° Pa a Se, : 3014 8 i _—_—-side of the hole; just as readily ‘as you burn out the rivet itself, you will flow the metal . You burn out the rivet by flowing the metal, and you would at the same time flow . the metal around the hele. That is not an opinion, that ‘ is what I have\experienced ‘in the whole of my existence. Q. Let's just assume Mr. pson that the rivets of “the bottom seam had been reméved by burning, and sub- sequently the plates restored. and reriveted: in your opin-_ ion would there have’ been any difference in the size of the rivets, in that case? —_.,_ A. No, the same opinion. would apply: there, ‘in the | replacement.. That is the necessity for reamering out the . hole, still, and putting a larger sized rivet. ee Q. And why is that? \ ee . A: ‘ For the same reasons I have stated, if the rivets had been cut out by hand, with cross-cut chisels, that the edge it of the hole rusts, and it is not good practice to put back > othe same size rivet as originally’ used. oh Q. From your experience, Mr. Thompson, referring to . the side seam, if.the side seam had been soldered pabove . the point where you observed the solder on the side ‘Seams, Sa from eighteen to iwenty inches from. the. bottom, and the . solder had been caused to run off by hot. fire; in your ex- - . perience what would you ‘tiave expected to find; if any-' » - thing, in the appearance of thé side of the tank? ‘ . A. Well-you put the question-in rather an inclisive __ way, Mr. Matteson. In my’experience,—I want to be per- fectly fair.in this case: I think the’ only thing that I can express there is an e Haren, I wouldn't base it on experi- ence so much, I would limit"this to.an dpinion based on’ general éxperience.- I. would expect to find—I don't want ’ fo go any stronger than this, I would ex 1 to find. dis- coloration, due to the acid- used in the ; and: I would ~ . expect to find some traces of solder ville: ~L. think that is as far as I would care to:go Mr. Matteson. , Q. ‘Well assuming thatthe tank had been through : ae fire. Ry seh | 30185 . AL Aamsiniing Win’ tent had Veen isctgh a tive of the order that apparently, from what I hear, the Seniinole _ went through. - Q Mr. Thompson there has ete, some deecrigition of a, test that is said to have been heid on this tank, and one part of this test was said-to have corisisted of closing: off ‘the outlets of the tank, after the tank fad- been com- . - pletely filled with water; and that while the tank was in that condition a man-of substantial weight stood on the top of the tank, and jumped on it and kicked down- . “ward with. his heels as he landed on the top of the 4ank; -and it is said that this, created the effect of a hydraulic ram through the action: of water in the tank, which caused — distortion im the bottom of the tank. ‘In your opinion what would be the effect of such a test, if-held? . A:. The effect-of such a test on ‘the top of the tank, that we have -been discussing? Q. Yes. _A. W [Text truncated at 120,000 characters. The full text is on the page linked above.] --- Source: Frix Law Library, https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40386403_0088%3A06. Public record. Not legal advice.