# Appendix — Gilles v. Blanchard (No. 06-1617) > Briefs, arguments, decisions, and more. URL: https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40386008_0569%3A2 ## Record - **Collection:** Supreme Court brief - **Document type:** Appendix - **Published:** January 1, 2007 ## Text la APPENDIX A United States Court of Appeals, Seventh Circuit. James G. GILLES, Plaintiff-Appellant, V. BRYAN K. BLANCHARD, John Livers, Defendants-Appellees. No. 06-01441. Argued October 31, 2006. Decided February 14, 2007. Before POSNER, WOOD, and EVANS, Circuit Judges. POSNER, Circuit Judge. Vincennes University, the oldest institution of higher education in Indiana (founded in 1806 by future President William Henry Harrison before Indiana was admitted to statehood)—and a public institution since its inception—has its main, and only residential, campus in the town of Vincennes (population 18,000) in southwestern Indiana. About 5,000 students, all undergraduate, are enrolled full time at the Vincennes campus. James Gilles (“Brother Jim”) (home page http://www.thecampusministry.org/, visited Feb. 2, 2007) is a traveling [2 No. 06-1441] evangelist—the latest in a line of Christian itinerant preachers stretching back to Saint Paul and prominent in Methodism in nineteenth-century America. Born near Vincennes, Gilles gives the following account of his salvation. As a result of Satan’s machinations, he devoted himself as a youth to drugs, sex, booze, and rock and roll. At a rock and roll concert at which the well-known Van Halen band performed, singer David Lee Roth shouted to the 2a crowd: “Not even God can save your soul at a Van Halen concert!” Gilles saw the light, called on God to save him and thus refute Roth, and was saved. The message he preaches, as summarized in his own words, is “Sinner friend, I have good news for you, you also can experience nghteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost if you would only forsake your sinful, selfish ways and turn to the The Lord And Savior Jesus Christ.” Neither the record nor Brother Jim’s home page indicates that he is affiliated with any religious organization, although in another case in which he was turned away by a university he is identified as a member of the Free Pentecostal Holiness Churches, Gilles v. Torgersen, 71 F.3d 497, 499 (4™ Cir. 1995) (dismissed without a decision on the merits), presumably a reference to the Pentecostal Holiness Church, a Protestant denomination with Methodist antecedents. None of this, of course, is important. There is no reason to doubt either his bona fides or that the content of his religious advocacy is protected by the First Amendment. The question is whether the protection extends to a particular site on the university campus. Vincennes University and Brother Jim first intersected in 2001, when he entered the campus uninvited and walked to a lawn in the middle of the campus, next to the university library. He preached from the lawn and a [No. 06-1441 3] disturbance ensued, the nature of which is not revealed by the record, although the university’s dean of students stated in his deposition that “when I went there, he [Brother Jim] was in the grassy area in front of the library. He had had—he was speaking to a number of students there. There was some—a disturbance, and at one point the campus police felt like he was in danger. And they asked him to leave, and he did.” From another case we learn that “when preaching, [Brother Jim] uses a confrontational style that includes calling people in the crowd names, such as whoremonger and drunkard, once the individuals have answered certain questions that he poses to them. He has been arrested on numerous occasions 3a in the past.” Gilles v. Torgersen, No. 92-0933, 1995 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 8502, at *2 (W.D. Va. Jan. 31, 1995), vacated for want of standing, 71 F.3d 497 (4th Cir. 1995). Brother Jim denied that his preaching at Vincennes in 2001 had caused a disturbance, and in the procedural posture of the case we must credit his denial. In reaction to the incident—whatever exactly it was—the university for the first time adopted a formal policy governing access to the campus by outsiders to the university community. Entitled “Sales and/or Solicitation Policy,” the policy requires prior approval by the dean of students of all sales on campus. In addition, and more to the point of this case, the policy also requires the dean’s prior approval of all “solicitations” on campus. Solicitation is defined as “the act of seeking to obtain by persuasion; to entice a person to action; or the recruiting of possible sales.” Solicitors, if approved, are limited to soliciting in the brick walkway directly in front of the student union. Here is a satellite photo of the campus, showing the library lawn and the walkway. 4a [No. 06-1441 5] Brother Jim returned to the campus the following year, proceeded to the lawn, was turned back and told he could preach only on the brick walkway. He tried to preach there, but the fact that the walkway is adjacent to a street makes it a noisy locale for a speech. Unable to attract an audience, he broke off and left, and filed this suit against the responsible university officials, contending that the solicitation policy infringes his nght of free speech. The district court granted summary judgment for the defendants. Brother Jim argues that since the lawn is public property and is suitable for spcechifying, he can no more be BEST AVAILABLE COPY 5a forbidden to preach there than he could be forbidden to preach in a public park. That is incorrect. The Justice Department in Washington has a large auditorium, with a stage, and so would be a suitable venue for a theatrical production. But the First Amendment does not require the department to make the auditorium available for that purpose even when it is not being used for departmental business. Public property is property, and the law of trespass protects public property, as it protects private property, from uninvited guests. “[T]he Government, ‘no less than a private owner of property, has power to preserve the property under its control for the use to which it is lawfully dedicated,’ Greer v. Spock, 424 U.S. 828, 836 (1976).” Cornelius v. NAACP Legal Defense & Educational Fund, Inc., 473 U.S. 788, 800 (1985). Since public and private universities compete with each other, courts hesitate to impose in the name of the Constitution extravagant burdens on public universities that private universities do not bear. Cf. Chicago Acorn v. Metropolitan Pier & Exposition Authority, 150 F.3d 695, 704 (7th Cir. 1998). [6 No. 06-1441] It is not as if requiring a public university to throw open its grounds to itinerant speakers would merely redress the advantage that a public university has over a private one because it has taxpayer support; the requirement would deny the university control over its facilities. The courts reject the proposition “that a campus must make all of its facilities equally available to students and nonstudents alike, or that a university must grant free access to all of its grounds or buildings.” Widmar v. Vincent, 454 U.S. 263, 268 n. 5 (1981). “The State, no less than a private owner of property, has power to preserve the property under its control for the use to which it is lawfully dedicated.” Adderley v. Florida, 385 U.S. 39, 47 (1966); see also United States Postal Service v. Council of Greenburgh Civic Associations, 453 U.S. 114, 129 (1981). 6a No matter how wonderfully suited the library lawn is to religious and other advocacy, Vincennes University could if it wanted bar access to the lawn to any outsider who wanted to use it for any purpose, just as it could bar outsiders from its classrooms, libraries, dining halls, and dormitories. It wouldn’t have to prove that allowing them in would disrupt its educational mission. See American Civil Liberties Union v. Mote, 423 F.3d 438, 444 (4" Cir. 2005). “(Gjovernment may draw _ permissible statusbased distinctions among different classes of speakers in order to preserve the purpose of the forum, even when the proposed uses by those inside the permitted class of speakers and those outside the permitted class of speakers are quite similar.” Goulart v. Meadows, 345 F.3d 239, 254 (4th Cir. 2003). What is true is that a university that decided to permit its open spaces to be used by some outsiders could not exclude others just because it disapproved of their mes [No. 06-1441 7] sage. E.g., Rosenberger v. Rector & Visitors of University of Virginia, 515 U.S. 819, 828-30 (1995). But it could use neutral criteria for access, such as that an outsider must be invited to speak on campus by a faculty member or a student group. American Civil Liberties Union v. Mote, supra, 423 F.3d at 444. The difference between invited and uninvited visitors is fundamental to a system of property rights. “The fact that other civilian speakers and entertainers had sometimes been invited to appear at’Fort Dix did not of itself serve to convert Fort Dix into a public forum or to confer upon political candidates a First or Fifth Amendment right to conduct their campaigns there. The decision of the military authorities that a civilian lecture on drug abuse, a religious service by a visiting preacher at the base chapel, or a rock musical concert would be supportive of the military mission of Fort Dix surely did not leave the authorities powerless thereafter to prevent any civilian from entering Fort Dix to speak on any subject whatever.” Greer v. Spock, 424 U.S. 828, 838 n. 10 (1976). Coming closer to this case, Ta we said in Piarowski v. Illinois Community College District 515, 759 F.2d 625, 629 (7th Cir. 1985), that the fact “that Piarowski sometimes invited artists from outside the college to exhibit their work in the [college’s art] gallery no more made the gallery a public forum than a teacher’s inviting a guest lecturer to his classroom would make the classroom a public forum.” Brother Jim places great weight on Bowman v. White, 444 F.3d 967 (8th Cir. 2006), which held that a public university that allowed anyone to use its outdoor spaces for public speaking could not limit that use by outsiders to five days (per outsider) per semester. The limit did not discriminate against particular viewpoints. It merely gave preference to insiders, which strikes us as [8 No. 06-1441] eminently reasonable and leads us to doubt the soundness of the decision, for in Cornelius v. NAACP Legal Defense & Educational Fund, Inc., supra, 473 U.S. at 806, the Supreme Court said that “control over access to a nonpublic forum can be based on subject matter and speaker identity so long as the distinctions drawn are reasonable in light of the purpose served by the forum and are viewpoint neutral”; cf. United States v. Kokinda, 497 U.S. 720, 730 (1990) (plurality opinion). Our case is in any event distinguishable from Bowman because Vincennes University has placed the lawn completely off limits to uninvited outsiders, and if it can’t do that without violating the Constitution, public universities cannot control their property. Confining solicitations to the walkway in front of the student union is entirely appropriate because most of the solicitations are of students, and where better to encounter a steady stream of them than outside the student union? Letting solicitors into the middle of the campus would disrupt the campus atmosphere. But here is the rub. In responding to Brother Jim’s lawn preaching in 2001 by promulgating a policy limited to sales and solicitations, the university could be thought to have thrown open the lawn to all outsiders who were not 8a selling or soliciting. Brother Jim argues forcefully that he does neither, and he asks us to infer (or allow a jury to infer) that the .application of the policy to him was therefore pretextual and discriminatory. Not that the university necessarily disapproves of his message. It may just fear a disturbance. But yielding to a “heckler’s veto” infringes a speaker’s free speech. Church of American Knights of Ku Klux Klan v. City of Gary, 334 F.3d 676, 680-81 (7th Cir. 2003), and cases cited there. [No. 06-1441 9] Brother Jim certainly is not selling anything. And he does not solicit or receive contributions or seek to “entice” members of his audiences to “action.” He tries merely to save their souls and make them happy. Of course, as he explains, salvation requires them to give up, as he gave up, drugs, sex (Brother Jim means fornication and adultery— he is not a Shaker), booze, and rock and roll. But that is enticement to inaction rather than to action. It is remote from what is ordinarily understood by “solicitation.” To solicit, in law as in ordinary language, is to ask someone to do something, usually of a commercial or quasi-commercial character, for the solicitor—so one solicits a prostitute for sex (or the prostitute solicits one), or solicits donations to a charity, or solicits a competitor to join in a price-fixing conspiracy. A priest who urged conversion to the Catholic Church might be thought to be engaged in solicitation, and likewise Jehovah’s Witnesses when they go door to door seeking converts. But the Pope is not soliciting when he gives a speech from the balcony of St. Peter’s, even though it is implicit or explicit in his message that the listeners should conform their behavior to the teachings of the Church. That is the character of Brother Jim’s preaching. If the Pope and Brother Jim are solicitors, almost anyone who opens his mouth to say anything is a solicitor. The application of the university’s solicitation policy to Brother Jim brings him to the verge of victory. The policy 9a as interpreted by the defendants to cover preaching the Gospel is hopelessly vague and thus a supple weapon for excluding from the university lawn those outsiders whose message the university disapproves of. But Brother Jim falls just short of prevailing because he has failed to show that any uninvited outsider has ever [10 No. 06-1441] been permitted to use the lawn for any purpose. No doubt outsiders wander in from time to time. The campus is not fenced, and outsiders are not forbidden to visit. They are classic licensees. But we are given no instance of an outsider’s being permitted to do more than stroll on the lawn—no instance of an outsider’s being permitted to give a speech, to play the bongo drums, to pitch a tent, to beg, to sunbathe, to play frisbee, or to engage in solicitation— without an invitation, whether from the university or from a faculty member or a student group. This has long been a norm, and not just a practice: strangers to the university community are not to/use the library lawn for purposes other than those unobtrusive, implicitly authorized uses of land (generally as a shortcut or other pathway) that distinguish a licensee from a trespasser. E.g., Sammons v. American Automobile Association, 912 P.2d 1103, 1105 (Wyo. 1996); Lakeview Associates, Ltd. v. Maes, 907 P.2d 580, 581-82 (Colo. 1995). So unlikely is it that a university or any other landowner would, as Brother Jim contends Vincennes University does, give strangers a right to roam the campus_ speechifying, begging, buttonholing, skateboarding, drag racing, etc., that he had to produce some evidence of that unlikely authorization in order to create a genuine issue of material fact—some evidence that would allow a reasonable jury to find that the university has such a permissive policy and merely denies Brother Jim the benefit of it lest his incendiary preaching ignite another disturbance. Brother Jim does point to numerous expressive activities that have taken place on the library lawn, including 10a religious activities—preaching by a couple named Duncan and the annual distribution of free Bibles by the Gideon Society. But of all the expressive activities that have [No. 06-1441 11] taken place on the lawn, the record discloses only one that was not by invitation. The Duncans had not been invited. They had preached on the lawn in 1998, three years before Brother Jim’s first visit, and the circumstances of their visit are hazy. One unauthorized use of the lawn would not come close to establishing the absence of a policy against use of the lawn by uninvited speakers. Maybe no one complained, and as a result the violation did not come to the attention of the university authorities—indeed, the dean of students attested that he had never learned of the matter. Perfect past compliance with a rule is not a precondition to being allowed to continue enforcing the rule. Otherwise few rules could be enforced, and universities would have to fence their open areas in order to limit access Brother Jim lists the following speakers or events that have taken place on the library lawn, in addition to the Duncans’ preaching and the Gideons’ handing out Bibles: Women of Essence; Black Male Initiative; Indiana National Guard; Kernan and Davis for Indiana campaign; Rebekka Armstrong (an HIV-positive former Playboy Playmate); Mark Sterner (speaker on drunk driving}; Mentalist Craig Karges; TB Re-Screening; Student Part Titae Job Fair; The Man Without a Face (an oral cancer survivor who lost half his jaw and part of his tongue); Health Screening; Ariana Huffington; Dr. Peter DeBenedittis (speaker on how the media manipulate consumers); Manufacturing Job Fair; Amanda Persinger (pharmaceutical representative); Prentis Hall Sales Representative; Tupperware Miultihost Bingo/Party; Kevin Riggins (speaker against athletic doping); Kelly Craig (speaker against drunk driving); and the Red Cross Blood Drive. This bewildering miscellany refutes an inference of dis [12 No. 06-1441] crimination against disfavored points of view, or of a university administration lla fearful of controversy and of the disturbances that might ensue. As far as appears, any student group can invite any speaker to speak on the library lawn. The diversity of speakers mirrors the diversity of the university community. Of course there would be even greater diversity of viewpoints if anyone, invited or uninvited, could use the lawn for expressive activity; for apparently no one in the Vincennes University community wants to invite Brother Jim to speak. He wants to turn the lawn into an American version of Speakers’ Corer in London’s Hyde Park, where anyone can speak on any subject other than the Royal family or the overthrow of the British government. The limits that Vincennes University has placed on the use of the library lawn are consistent with limiting university facilities to activities that further the interests of the university community. The limits are constitutional. We should note that the defendants wanted us to pitch our analysis on the distinction that the Supreme Court has drawn between “traditional public forums,” “designated public forums,” and “nonpublic forums.” E.g., Good News Club v. Milford Central School, 533 U.S. 98, 106-07 (2001); International Society for Krishna Consciousness, Inc. v. Lee, 505 U.S. 672, 678-79 (1992). The first consist of streets and parks and other public property that are traditional, and, the Supreme Court has ruled, irrevocable venues for expressive activity (marches, demonstrations, iarangues, and so forth). The second consist of public facilities for expression that are nontraditional, such as public theaters, and used for only some types of expressive activity even though they could be used for others as well—a public theater could be used for political rallies. The Court [No. 06-1441 13] does not require that they be used for expressive activities for which they were not intended to be used, provided that there is no discrimination based on the message of the excluded speaker, or that their use for expressive activity be irrevocable. The third category consists of public facilities 12a like the Justice Department’s auditorium that could be used for private expressive activities but are not—and they do not have to be. The difficulty with using the “forum” template to resolve this case—a difficulty that is common enough where rules are concerned—is that the present case falls into a crack between the rules. The library lawn is not open to all outsiders, or closed to all outsiders, or reserved for some uses but not others. To fill the crack, cases such as Bowman v. White, supra, 444 F.3d at 975-76; Justice for All v. Faulkner, 410 F.3d 760, 765-69 (Sth Cir. 2005), and Travis v. Owego-Apalachin School District, 927 F.2d 688, 692 (2d Cir. 1991), have carved out a fourth category—a variant of the second, the “designated public forum.” This fourth category is variously (and confusingly) termed the “limited designated public forum” (versus the “true forum”), the “limited public forum,” or the “limited forum.” The terms denote a public facility reserved for some speakers but not others, here members of the university community and their guests but not uninvited outsiders. We doubt the utility of multiplying categories in this fashion, thus adding epicycles to an already complex scheme and turning the search for sensible results into a classification game. The issue more simply posed is whether a university should be able to bar uninvited speakers under a policy that by decentralizing the invitation process assures nondiscrimination, and a reasonable diversity of viewpoints consistent with the univer [14 No. 06-1441] sity’s autonomy and right of self-governance. We have tried to explain why the Constitution does not commit a university that allows a faculty member or student group to invite a professor of theology to give a talk on campus also to invite Brother Jim and anyone else who would like to use, however worthily, the university’s facilities as his soapbox. To call the library lawn therefore a “limited designated public forum” is an unnecessary flourish. AFFIRMED. A true Copy: Teste: Clerk of the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit USCA-02-C-0072—-2-14-07 l4a APPENDIX B United States District Court, W.D. Wisconsin. James G. GILLES, Plaintiff, | +. BRYAN K. BLANCHARD, John Livers, Defendants. 2:04-cv-083-LJM-WGH. January 1, 2007. ORDER ON CROSS MOTIONS FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT This matter comes before the Court on cross motions for summary judgment by Plaintiff James G. Gilles (“Gilles”) and Defendants Bryan K. Blanchard and John Livers (collectively “Defendants”). Gilles brought this suit challenging Vincennes University’s “sales and/or solicitation” policy and seeking injunctive relief, declaratory relief, and damages pursuant to 42 U.S.C. §§ 1983 and 1988. The parties have fully briefed their arguments and this matter is now ripe for ruling. For the reasons stated herein, the Court GRANTS Defendants’ Motion for Summary Judgment and DENIES Gilles’ Motion for Summary Judgment. I. BACKGROUND Gilles is a traveling evangelist. Complaint, 4 10-12. He arrived on the campus of Vincennes University (“VU”) in 2001 and preached his message in an open area located in the middle of campus. Gilles Aff., 4 5; Second Gilles Aff., 4 4, 11-12, Ex. A; Complaint, 4 17. After [Case 2:04-cv-00083- LJM-WGH Document 64 Filed 01/13/2006 Page 2 of 7] a 15a disturbance ensued, Gilles was asked to leave. Livers Depo., pp. 27-28. VU’s Board of Trustees subsequently approved a “sales and/or solicitation” policy on or about June 26, 2002. Second Livers Aff., § 3; Livers Depo., Ex. 1. The policy requires those who wish to engage in solicitation to obtain prior approval from the Dean of Students on the date and time of the solicitation, and it designates the brick walkway in front of the Beckes Student Union as the area for solicitation. Livers Depo., Ex. 1. The policy was designed with uninvited outsiders in mind, and no uninvited outside person or group has been permitted to solicit on the campus except for in the designated area. Livers Aff., 4] 12; Livers Depo., p. 25, Il. 6-8. The purpose of the policy is to promote education and safety, prevent disruption, and to inform VU’s officials that outsiders are present on the campus. Livers Aff., | 17; Livers Depo., p. 17, Il. 4-5, 8-10; p. 19, Il. 11-13. Since the policy’s adoption, no request for solicitation has been denied. Livers Aff., 4 16; Second Livers Aff., 4 7; Livers Depo., p. 82, Il. 18-21. On August 29, 2002, Gilles returned to VU and attempted to speak at the open area in the middle of campus. Gilles Aff., 9 5; Second Gilles Aff., § 12 and Ex. A; Livers Aff., | 6; Livers Depo., pp. 32-33. He was approached by a VU police officer and informed that he was not permitted to carry on his speech in the area and that he needed to fill out a solicitation request with the Dean of Students. Gilles Aff., 4 6; Livers Aff., 4 8. He then went to see the Dean, Defendant John Livers and filled out a solicitation request, which was approved. Gilles Aff., § 7; Livers Aff., 4 10; Livers Depo., p. 37 and Ex. 3. Gilles then went to the designated area but decided that it was not to his liking and left. Gilles Aff., 44 9- 11 Thereafter he filed this lawsuit. [Case 2:04-cv-00083- LJM-WGH Document 64 Filed 01/13/2006 Page 3 of 7] 16a Il. STANDARD As stated by the Supreme Court, summary judgment is not a disfavored procedural shortcut, but rather is an integral part of the federal rules as a whole, which are designed to secure the just, speedy, and inexpensive determination of every action. Celotex Corp. v. Catrett, 477 U.S. 317, 327 (1986). See also United Ass'n of Black Landscapers v. City of Milwaukee, 916 F.2d 1261, 1267-68 (7th Cir. 1990), cert. denied, 111 S.Ct. 1317 (1991). Motions for summary judgment are governed by Rule 56(c) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, which provides in relevant part: The judgment sought shall be rendered forthwith if the pleadings, depositions, answers to interrogatories, and admissions on file, together with the affidavits, if any, show that there is no genuine issue as to any material fact and that the moving party is entitled to a judgment as a matter of law. Once a party has made a properly-supported motion for summary judgment, the opposing party may not simply rest upon the pleadings but must instead submit evidentiary materials which “set forth specific facts showing that there is a genuine issue for trial.” Fed. R. Civ. P. 56(e). A genuine issue of material fact exists whenever “there is sufficient evidence favoring the nonmoving party for a jury to return a verdict for that party.” Anderson v. Liberty Lobby, Inc., 477 U.S. 242, 249 (1986). The nonmoving party bears the burden of demonstrating that such a genuine issue of material fact exists. See Matsushita Elec. Indus. Co. v. Zenith Radio Corp., 475 U.S. 574, 586-87 (1986); Oliver v. Oshkosh Truck Corp., 96 F.3d 992, 997 (7th Cir. 1996), cert. denied, 520 U.S. 1116 (1997). It is not the duty of the court to scour the record in search of evidence to defeat a motion for summary judgment; rather, the nonmoving party bears the responsibility of identifying the evidence upon which he 17a relies. See Bombard v. Fort Wayne Newspapers, Inc., 92 F.3d 560, 562 (7th Cir. 1996). When the moving party has met the standard of Rule 56, summary judgment is mandatory. [Case 2:04-cv-00083-LJM-WGH Document 64 Filed 01/13/2006 Page 4 of 7] Celotex, 477 U.S. at 322-23; Shields Enters., Inc. v. First Chicago Corp., 975 F.2d 1290, 1294 (7" Cir. 1992). In evaluating a motion for summary judgment, a court should draw all reasonable inferences from undisputed facts in favor of the nonmoving party and should view the disputed evidence in the light most favorable to the nonmoving party. See Estate of Cole v. Fromm, 94 F.3d 254, 257 (7" Cir. 1996), cert. denied, 519 U.S. 1109 (1997). The mere existence of a factual dispute, by itself, is not sufficient to bar summary judgment. Only factual disputes that might affect the outcome of the suit in light of the substantive law will preclude summary judgment. See Anderson, 477 U:S. at 248; JPM Inc. v. John Deere Indus. Equip. Co., 94 F.3d 270, 273 (7th Cir. 1996). Irrelevant or unnecessary facts do not deter summary judgment, even when in dispute. See Clifton v. Schafer, 969 F.2d 278, 281 (7th Cir. 1992). “If the nonmoving party fails to establish the existence of an element essential to his case, one on which he would bear the burden of proof at trial, summary judgment must be granted to the moving party.” Ortiz v. John O. Butler Co., 94 F.3d 1121, 1124 (7th Cir. 1996), cert. denied, 519 U.S. 1115 (1997). Ill. DISCUSSION Gilles is challenging VU’s “sales and/or solicitation” policy. He takes issue with the policy because he is not permitted to use his venue of choice, the open area of campus. Instead, he has been allowed to use the designated area, which he considers to be a less desirable venue. An initial determination must be made regarding the nature of Gilles’ preferred venue because the level of 18a scrutiny applied to a restriction on speech is dependent upon the classification of the forum. The Supreme Court has identified three distinct types of fora for the purposes of the [Case 2:04-cv-00083-LJM-WGH Document 64 Filed 01/13/2006 Page 5 of 7] First Amendment: (1) the traditional public forum; (2) the designated (or limited) public forum; and (3) the non-public forum. See Arkansas Educ. T.V. Comm’n v. Forbes, 523 U.S. 666, 677 (1998). Traditional public fora are defined by the objective characteristics of the property, such as whether, “by long tradition or by government fiat,” the property has been “devoted to assembly and debate.” Perry Educ. Ass’n v. Perry Local Educators’ Ass’n, 460 U.S. 37, 45 (1983). In contrast, designated public fora is property that has been created by purposeful government action to open the area for expressive activity. Courts look to “the policy and practice of the government to ascertain whether it intended to designate a place not traditionally open to assembly and debate as a public forum.” Cornelius v. NAACP Legal Defense & Educ. Fund, Inc., 473 U.S. 788, 802 (1985). Here, Gilles’ preferred speaking venue is situated in the center of VU’s campus and is not contingent to any public street or sidewalk. Gilles Aff., {| 5; Second Gilles Aff., § 12 and Ex. A; Livers Aff., § 6. There is no evidence that the area has by long tradition or fiat been devoted to or set aside for expressive use by the general public. In fact, Dean Livers is unaware of any uninvited outside persons using the area for public speaking other than Gilles in 2001. Livers Aff., | 4; Second Livers Aff., § 5; Livers Depo. p. 17, ll. 13- 23. In addition, there is also no evidence that VU has purposefully dedicated the area for expressive use by the general public. The Court therefore finds that Gilles’ preferred venue, the open area of campus, is not a public space as it relates to Gilles, an outsider to the campus and its community. 19a Because the nature of the forum dictates the applicable standard for First Amendment analysis, the Court now turns to the nonpublic forum standard for First Amendment challenges. In such cases, the restraint on speech must be reasonable and viewpoint neutral. Perry Educ. Ass’n, 460 U.S. at 46. [Case 2:04-cv-00083-LJM-WGH Document 64 Filed 01/13/2006 Page 6 of 7] The relevant portion of the VU policy requires those who wish to engage in solicitation to obtain prior approval from VU and it designates the brick walkway in front of the Beckes Student Union as the area for solicitation. Livers Depo., Ex. 1. Solicitation is defined as “the act of seeking to obtain by persuasion; to entice a person to action; or the recruiting of possible sales.” Livers Depo., Ex. 1. It is difficult to accept Gilles’ insistence that the policy does not apply to him given that the circumstances of his visit and his stated purposes are to speak to students on moral topics and behaviors with the hope that they will embrace his religious faith. Gilles Aff., {| 2-4, Second Gilles Aff., 4 3; Complaint, 4 10-12, 14-15. It is the Court’s view that he is therefore within the application of the policy as his activities are clearly meant to persuade or entice a person to action. As this policy applies to Gilles, the question becomes whether it passes muster under the standard for nonpublic forum, i.e., whether it is reasonable and viewpoint neutral. Nothing in the policy expresses that it is aimed at suppressing a particular viewpoint or is aimed to exclude any particular person or group. In fact, it does not prohibit any speech at all but instead merely invites all to whom it applies to solicit in the same designated area, an area on campus where students go. The Court therefore concludes that the policy is viewpoint neutral. Further, the purpose of the policy is to promote education and safety, prevent disruption, and to inform VU’s officials about outsiders present on the campus. Livers Aff., 20a 4] 17; Livers Depo., p. 17, Il. 4-5, 8-10; p. 19, Il. 11-13. As the Supreme Court has observed, a university’s mission is education and decisions of this Court have never denied a university’s authority to impose reasonable regulations compatible with that mission upon the use of its campus facilities. We have not held, for example, that a campus must make all of its facilities equally available to students and non-students alike, or that a university must grant free access to all of its buildings and grounds. Widmar v. Vincent, 454 U.S. 263, 267, n. 5 (1981). VU’s solicitation policy is tailored to accomplish [Case 2:04-cv- 00083-LJM-WGH Document 64 Filed 01/13/2006 Page 6 of 7] its educational mission. Accordingly, the Court concludes that the policy is sufficiently narrow, viewpoint neutral, and reasonable in light of VU’s purpose for the policy. Gilles’ challenge to the policy must therefore fail.’ IV. CONCLUSION For the foregoing reasons, the Court GRANTS Defendants’ Motion for Summary Judgment and DENIES Gilles’ Motion for Summary Judgment. ' The Court also concludes that Gilles’ due process concerns must fail. The policy is neither vague nor ambiguous but clearly provides notice to those who wish to solicit that they must obtain approval of the date and time of the solicitation and use the designated area. Moreover, the policy’s terms do not vest the Dean of Students with any discretion to evaluate the content of speech but simply require him to approve the date and time for the solicitation. Livers Depo., Ex. 1. 2la IT IS SO ORDERED this 13m day of January, 2006. /s/Larry J. McKinney LARRY J. McKINNEY, CHIEF JUDGE | United States District Court Southern District of Indiana Electronically distributed to: Nathan Wesley Kellum Daniel Lang Siewers ALLIANCE DEFENSE FUND HART BELL, LLC nkellum@telladf.org dsiewers@hartbell.com Elizabeth Anna Murray Hoyt Brent Stuckey ALLIANCE DEFENSE FUND HART BELL, LLC emurray@telladf.org bstuckey@hartbell.com 22a APPENDIX C United States Court of Appeals For the Seventh Circuit. Chicago, Illinois 60604 March 12, 2007 Before Hon. Richard A. Posner, Circuit Judge Hon. Diane P. Wood, Circuit Judge Hon. Terrance T. Evans, Circuit Judge No. 06-1441 James G. GILLES, Appeal from the United States Plaintiff-Appellant, District Court for the Southern District of Indiana, Terre v. Haute Division. BRYAN K. BLANCHARD, et. al., No. 2:04-cv-0083 Defendants-A ppellees. Larry J. McKinley, Chief Judge. ORDER On February 28, 2007, plaintiff-appellant filed a petition for rehearing en banc. All the judges on the original panel have voted to deny the petition, and none of the active judges has requested a vote on the petition for rehearing en banc. The petition is therefore DENIED. 23a APPENDIX D IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF INDIANA TERRE HAUTE DIVISION JAMES G. GILLES, ) Plaintiff, : VS. Case No. 2:04-CV-083-LJM- ) WGH BRYAN K. BLANCHARD, ie AL., ) ) Defendants. ) **A KE * The deposition upon oral examination of JOHN LIVERS, a witness produced and sworn before me, Renee R. Dobson, Registered Merit Reporter, Notary Public in and for the State of Indiana, was taken on March 3, 2005, commencing at 9:30 a.m., at the offices of Hart Bell, 513 Main Street, Vincennes, Knox County, Indiana, pursuant to notice and the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure. This deposition was taken on behalf of the Plaintiff in the above- captioned matter. **** * CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING Renee R. Dobson, CSR, RMR 9733 Sable Ridge Lane Terre Haute, Indiana 47802 (812) 299-0442 CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING 24a APPEARANCES FOR THE PLAINTIFF: ALLIANCE DEFENSE FUND Elizabeth Murray 15333 N. Pima Road, Suite 165 Scottsdale, Arizona 85260 and Nathan W. Kellum 2749 Lombardy Road P.O. Box 11159 Memphis, Tennessee 38111 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: HART BELL, LLC Daniel L. Siewers 513 Main Street Vincennes, Indiana 47591 CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [2] INDEXOFEXAMINATION DIRECT EXAMINATION, Questions by Ms. Murray CROSS-EXAMINATION, Questions by Mr. Siewers REDIRECT EXAMINATION, Questions by Ms. Murray PAGE 87 25a CERTIFICATE PAGE CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [3] INDEXOFEXHIBITS JOHN LIVERS/March 3, 2005: Number Identification 1 Sales and/or Solicitation Policy 2 Sales and/or Solicitation Policy with Signature 3 Request for Solicitation Approval 4 Affidavit of John Livers 5 Letter from Scott Shipman 6 11/27/02 Letter 7 Dfts' Answers to Pif's First Set of Interrogatories 8 Verified Complaint 9 Amended Answer 10 3/24/04 Request for Solicitation Approval ll 3/17/04 Request for Solicitation Approval 12 2/3/03 Request for Solicitation Approval 13 1/12/04 Request for Solicitation Approval 14 11/4/03 Request for Solicitation Approval 15 10/30/03 Request for Solicitation Approval 16 10/2/03 Request for Solicitation Approval 17 8/29/03 Request for Solicitation Approval 18 8/9/04 Request for Solicitation Approval 19 10/26/04 Request for Solicitation Approval 20 8/30/04 Request for Solicitation Approval 21 5/7/02 Agreement 22 Agreement for the Services of Mark Sterner CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [4] 88 Page 11 34 37 39 41 46 49 53 54 61 64 65 67 70 71 72 72 74 75 76 78 79 26a | JOHN LIVERS, 2 having been first duly placed under oath, was examined and 3 testified as follows: 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION 5 By Ms. Murray: 6 Q Good morning. 7 A Good morning. 8 Q Again, my name is Elizabeth Murray, and this is Nate Kellum 9 for the plaintiff. Thank you for meeting us here today. 10 A You're more than welcome. 11 Q This deposition is primarily a factual interview just to 12 give us an idea of how you view the facts and the issues in 13 this case. I'm not planning any trick questions. I would 14 appreciate if only one person would speak at a time so that 15 the answers could be, you know, fully given, both the 16 questions and the answers. And if you would, just respond 17 verbally rather than saying uh-huh or just nodding. 18 A Okay. 19 Q And then feel free to let ime know if you, you know, need a 20 break. And, also, I just request that you would answer all 21 the questions unless your attorney instructs you not to. 22 A Sure. 23 Q Thank you. To start off with, I was wondering if you have 24 been deposed before in any other case? 25 A No. CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [5] 27a 1 Q Okay. Could you briefly explain your educational background 2 for me? 3 A As far as years and where I've been? 4 Q Yes, please. 5 A I graduated from Indiana State in 1979 with a bachelor's 6 degree in therapeutic recreation; most recently completed my 7 master's in human resource development, also through Indiana 8 State. 9 Q Congratulations. 10 A Thank you. 11 Q Who is your present employer? 12 A Vincennes University. 13 Q Okay. And how long have you been employed for Vincennes 14 University? 15 A Since '93, August of '93. 16 Q Okay. And what is your job title there at the university? 17 Al am the Dean of Students. 18 Q Okay. Now, what are your duties at the university? . 19 A Well, there's many, but what I do is I basically supervise 20 the Student Center, and in those offices are the Dean of 21 Students office, Judicial Affairs, Student Activities, the 22 Multicultural and International Student Offices. 23 Q Okay. Quite a lot under your direction? 24 A Sometimes, yes. 25 Q As part of your responsibilities are you also--is it also CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [6] | your responsibility to oversee the use of campus grounds and 2 facilities? 28a 3 A I'm not sure what you mean by that. 4 Q Okay. As far as when different individuals are wanting to 5 have different events and hold expressive activities on 6 campus, do you oversee giving permission? 7 A [handle the solicitation requests. I sign off on those as 8 far as giving approval. And then I would supervise 9 activities, student activities so that I would be informed 10 of those, too. 11 Q Okay. Are you--do you oversee any other aspect except--or 12 rather, besides the solicitation forms as far as different 13 other performance agreements and various other aspects, or 14 is it solely the solicitation forms? 15 A To get my approval, it's solicitation, so that would be . what 16 I would be. I think that's the answer to your question. 17 Q Thank you. Is your permission required then--am I 18 understanding you that your permission is required in order 19 for--if someone is to come-- 20 A On any solicitation agreement, yes. 21 Q All right. As--I would like just a moment to talk about the 22 campus layout. Is there a fence that surrounds the entire 23 campus? 24 A No. 25 Q Okay. Are there security entrances where ID is required? CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [7] 1 A No. 2 Q Okay. Is the campus open for outsiders to come onto the 3 campus? Can members of the community and citizens from 29a 4 other states just come onto the campus? 5A Yes. 6 Q Could an outsider come onto the campus without getting 7 permission and read the Gettysburg Address? 8 A I'm not understanding. 9 Q Okay. Sometimes I would--it's my understanding that there 10 are some things that an individual could do on campus 11 without having to fill out a solicitation form. Is one of 12 those activities coming on and perhaps just reading 13 something such as the Gettysburg Address? 14 A I would assume they could do that, sure. 15 Q Okay. All right. Could a person come onto the campus and 16 without getting permission just hold up a sign and say, have 17 a great day, students? 18 A Sure. 19 Q Okay. And then one more, could an outsider come onto the 20 campus and just have a sign around finals that said, study 21 hard? 22 A Sure. 23 Q Okay. Thank you. As of August 2002 what were the 24 guidelines that were in place that would govern your 25 decision of granting permission to--and granting permission CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [8] | and approval when you would sign the solicitation forms? 2 AI believe that what you're talking about is the solicitation 3 policy that was in place. 4 Q Okay. Were there any other--are there any other policies 5 that relate to speech activities besides the solicitation 6 policy? 30a 7 A As far as--I'm not-- - 8 Q I can clarify. 9 A Okay. 10 Q If there--does some speech occur on campus that is not 11 solicitation or sales? 12 A For--if you're talking about people just--I'm having a tough 13 time. Are we talking about groups coming on campus, or are 14 we talking about just people in general being on campus? 15 Are we talking about faculty and staff? 16 A We're talking about all of them, yes, students, faculty and 17 staff, outsiders. If any of those individuals want to 18 engage in some sort of expressive activity on campus, and it 19 doesn't happen to be solicitation or sales, is there another 20 policy that would govern that speech? 21 A It would be the same policy. The university people would be 22 able to do that; but if an outside group came in, it would 23 fall under the solicitation policy that we have. 24 Q Okay. So is it my understanding that you're saying that 25 faculty and staff are not governed by the solicitation CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [9] 1 policy? 2 A That's correct. They would be able to come to have a forum 3 for speech. 4 Q Okay. And how would they go about doing that? 5 A It depends. If it's in their classroom, or if it's part of 6 the things, that's part of the educational mission. 7 Q Okay. 8 A If they are bringing folks on, or they are, you know, 3la 9 inviting people to the university, normally, that goes 10 through the division offices. It wouldn't necessarily go 11 through our office. But we also--I think you have some of 12 the academic grants that we provide assistance through the 13 Student Activities Office for stipends for payment, so 14 there's a process that they would register through that 15 through the Student Activities Office. 16 Q Okay. And so the faculty could go through that process that 17 you were just speaking about; and whether or not the 18 activity was outside on the campus or inside in their 19 classroom, they would not have to fill out the solicitation 20 form? 21 A That's correct; that's correct. 22 Q Okay. Now, do students of Vincennes University, are they 23 required to fill out a solicitation form? 24 A If they're going to sell some things-- 25 Q Okay. CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [10] 1 A --or do raffles or fund raisers, then they would. If not, 2 then they would not have to fill out the solicitation. 3 Q All right. What procedure must someone follow from Start to 4 finish in order to be able to engage in speech? 5 A Are we talking inside of Vincennes community--or a Vincennes 6 University person or an outside group? 7 Q Let's start with a student. 8 A Okay. If a student were to do that, they could have--they 9 could just speak. Okay? 10 Q Okay. 32a 11 A The same would be for a faculty member or a member of the, 12 you know, Vincennes University community, if you want to 13 call it that. 14 Q A moment ago you mentioned that if a student wanted to 15 engage in sales, they would have to fill out a 16 solicitation--a sales and solicitation form. 17 A Uh-huh. 18 Q When would a student have to fill out a solicitation form if 19 they wanted to solicit rather than engaging in actual sales? 20 A Can you clarify--give me examples? 21 Q Yes. Okay. 22 MS. MURRAY: Could I--could you enter this as Exhibit 23 1, please? 24 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT | MARKED) 25 Q Would you take a moment to review that? Do you know what CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [11] | that is? 2 A Uh-huh. 3 Q What is that? 4 A This is our sales and solicitation policy. 5 Q Thank you. If you look at the second paragraph of the 6 policy, right underneath the sentence regarding the Board of 7 Trustees, that paragraph looks to me as if that deals 8 primarily with sales that occur on campus; is that correct? 9 A Uh-huh. 10 Q And then if you look-- 11 AI'm sorry. | meant to say yes. 33a 12 Q Thank you. If you look at the paragraph below that, that 13 appears to me that it addresses solicitation. So I think 14 the university draws a distinction between sales and 15 solicitation; is that correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Now, would you look at line 1 of the second--of the third 18 paragraph, please, and it says that, "Vincennes University 19 requires prior approval of all solicitation on campus by any 20 person or organization." So it's my understanding what that 21 sentence is saying that any time any individual wants to 22 engage in solicitation on campus that prior approval is 23 required; is that correct? 24 A I would--looking at this, I'd say yes. Okay. 25 Q Okay. So do students who would want to engage in CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [12] 1 solicitation rather than a sale be required to fill out a 2 solicitation form? 3 A Well, again, by solicitation, can you give me an example of 4 what you might mean by that? 5 Q Yes. Would you look at the bottom line of paragraph 3? It 6 defines, "Solicitation as an act of seeking to obtain by 7 persuasion or enticing a person to action or recruiting of 8 possible sales." Would a student be required to solicit--to 9 fill out a solicitation form if they wanted to engage in 10 something that fell under one of those three definitions 11 that I just read? i2 A I don't believe so. I think it would be for sales or for 13 raffles or fund raisers. ererrenr ta ree cae curses cntpasanedeenticideenushceseaiapsadiipsnccchaaseansanneyaaenniaannansiae 34a 14 Q Okay. Thank you. And, again, are there any other forms 15 besides the solicitation forms that you're aware of that any 16 individual would have to fill out in order to engage in 17 speech activity? 18 A No, this would be it. 19 Q Thank you. Is there any speech activity that you have seen 20 in your experience at the university that has not fallen 21 within the categories of solicitation or sales? 22 A Again, I'm not-- 23 Q Okay. We talked about it-- 24 A I'm sorry. Go ahead. 25 Q Okay. Earlier you said that the only policy that you have CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [13] 1 in place relating to speech activity is the sales or 2 solicitation policy that we just looked at ard is marked as 3 Exhibit 1? 4 A Uh-huh. 5 Q Is there any other speech activity that you could foresee 6 that would not fall within the sales or solicitation policy? 7 A For outside groups coming in, [ don't believe so. 8 Q Okay. And is there other speech that you would not consider 9 sales or solicitation that a student would engage in? 10 A I would think that they would have discussions in classrooms 11 or things like--is that what you're meaning? 12 Q Yes, thank you. 13 A Okay. 14 Q Is there also speech activity that a student would engage in 35a 15 outdoors, not in the classroom that you would consider not 16 sales or solicitation? 17 A Yes. 18 Q What would that be? 19 A Could be classroom activities outdoors, could be just 20 exchange of ideas sitting around a park bench. I would 21 assume that would fall under what you're asking. 22 Q Thank you. Could I draw your attention again to the exhibit 23 that you have in front of you? 24 A Uh-huh. 25 Q You already said that you recognize that as a sales and CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [14] 1 solicitation policy. Were you involved in the drafting and 2 passage of the policy? 3 A I was one of the people who were a part of this, yes. 4 Q Could you describe the process that you went through to 5 draft the policy? 6 A Well, we had the sales and solicitation policy prior to 7 this, and that was prior to 2001-2002 year. When we looked 8 at this to realign or redo or whatever you want to say with 9 this, we took a look--we wanted to have a way that we could 10 have an idea of people who were coming on campus. So what 11 we tried to do was combine the two policies. One would be 12 the sales and solicitation that was already in practice and 13 then also a way to review or to recognize people who wanted 14 to come on campus. 36a 15 Q Okay. Was the prior policy before you developed the one 16 that's marked as Exhibit 1, did you have an official policy 17 that was written down that the Board of Trustees had 18 adopted? I can state that again. 19 A Yeah. 20 Q The policy in front of you as Exhibit 1, that's a written 21 policy. 22 A Yes. 23 Q Was there a written policy concerning sales and solicitation 24 prior to that policy? 25 A There was a solicitation policy--sales and solicitation CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [15] 1 policy prior to that. 2 Q Okay. Would it be possible for us to get a copy of that? 3 A I'm sure we can find one. 4 Q Okay. Do you know if that's with you today? 5 AI do not have that with me today. 6 Q Okay. Thank you. We'd appreciate that. Did you draft the 7 actual language of the new policy? 8 A I was not a part of the language drafting. 9 Q Is there a committee involved in the drafting process? 10 A I don't know that you would necessarily call it a committee, 11 but there were a number of people in student affairs that 12 were a part of that. 13 Q Do you know who they were? Do you know who the individuals 14 were that were involved in drafting the new policy? 15 A I believe Lynn White, myself. I'm not sure if Dale Dowden 37a 16 was involved with that, but I would say that he would have 17 been aware of the policy, and he's the provost. 18 Q Okay. Do you know how long it took to draft the policy? Is 19 it something that people met on a weekly basis? 20 A I don't remember. | can't say for sure. 21 Q What was your specific involvement in the drafting process? 22 A Giving ideas, exchanging thoughts, just more or less--I 23 can't-- 24 Q That helps me. Okay. What ideas--in your experience on 25 campus what ideas did you bring to the drafting process? CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [16] 1 A I think what we wanted to look at was the fact that with the 2 campus for outside groups, we wanted to make something that 3 was fair for everybody and was consistent with--for all 4 groups to come on; but we also wanted to make sure that we 5 had a way of being aware of who was on our campus. 6 Q And what were your reasons for wanting to be aware of what 7 was going on on campus? 8 A Well, for one, to protect the mission of the university 9 which is educational; and then, two, would be to make sure 10 it's a safe environment for the students. 11 Q Okay. Thank you. Was there a particular event that 12 prompted the policy change? 13 A With Reverend Gilles coming to the university in August of 38a 14 2001, that was the first time in my recollection that 15 anyone--any outside group just came to the university 16 uninvited. There was some difficulties during that time, SO 17 that made us take a look to see what we needed to do to be 18 more aware of what goes on on our campus. 19 Q Were there other events that you can recall other than Mr. 20 Gilles's first visit that prompted the policy change? 21 A He's been the only person that's come on the campus that's 22 uninvited that had not gone through that process. He was 23 the first person that [ can ever remember doing that. 24 Q And how long has Vincennes University been established? 25 A 1801. CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [17] 1 Q 1801? And Mr. Gilles is the only outside group? 2 A No, no, ‘hat's just in my recollection. 3 Q Okay. In your recollection. 4 A Yeah. And, again, I've been there since '93. 5 Q Okay. Have you spoken to others who were there before you 6 who have had experiences with outsiders who came onto the 7 campus? 8 A Not that I can remember. Again, when we met, I don't--I 9 can't remember anybouy saying that that had happened before. 10 Q Okay. Thank you. Are you the official that's responsible 11 for enforcing the solicitation policy? 12 A Yes. 39a 13 Q Is there another official who is also responsible to enforce 14 the policy? 15 A In any of the things that we do, there is an appeal process, 16 and an appeal process would go to Lynn White. 17 Q Okay. Could you describe the appeal process for me? 18 A It would be basically that if they met with me, and they 19 didn't agree with what I said, they would in turn go to Lynn 20 and talk with her. 21 Q Okay. Did you inform Mr. Gilles of the appeal process when 22 he visited you on August 29th of '02? 23 A You know, I'm not sure if I specifically said that there's 24 an appeal process, but I know that Reverend Gilles went and 25 talked with Lynn. CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [18] 1 Q Thank you. Were you in the meeting with Lynn and Mr. 2 Gilles? 3 ANo. 4 Q You noted earlier that one of the purposes of the 5 solicitation policy was ensuring the safety of the campus. 6 Are there any other purposes that you're aware of that the 7 policy was written to remedy? I can rephrase that. 8 A Thank you. 9 Q Are there any other purposes that you know of for the sales 10 and solicitation policy besides the safety of the campus? 11 A For outside groups to come on campus, if they're not invited 12 by faculty, staff, students, it helps to make us aware of 13 the outside groups that come on, so that's the purpose. 40a 14 Q Thank you. Could you look again specifically at the 15 language of the policy in Exhibit 1? And I'm looking at the 16 first line about the Board of Trustees, and it states that 17 this particular policy has been adopted by the Board of 18 Trustees. Are all official policies adopted by the Board of 19 Trustees at some time? 20 A That's my understanding. 21 Q Okay. And looking at the first line of the second 22 paragraph, it states that the university, "requires prior 23 approval for all sales on campus by any person or 24 organization." Does this mean that no one engages in a sale 25 without Vincennes University being aware of it and-- excuse CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [19] | me--and granting prior approval? 2 A To say that no one does, I don't know that I could be that 3 exact. But if anybody on campus has a sales project, 4 whatever, they are required to come to us. That's the 5 policy. You know, | think that pretty much everyone follows 6 that. 7 Q And is pnor approval required for outsiders, faculty and 8 students? Is prior approval for sales required for faculty, 9 students and outsiders? 10 A Yes, yes. 11 Q Thank you. If you jump down to the line that reads the Dean 12 of Students--and I'm still in the second paragraph--it 13 states that the Dean of Students--and, again, I assume 14 that's you-- 15 A Uh-huh. 16 Q --is that correct?-- 4la 17 A Yes, yes. Sorry. 18 Q --that you retain the right of approval of the product or 19 activity as well as a date, time or location. The way I 20 read that is that you have the ultimate authority to 21 determine who can be there and who cannot be there to engage 22 in sales; is that correct? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q It also states in that same line regarding the Dean of 25 Students that you also determined the date, time and CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [20] 1 location of the sales; is that true? 2 A No, I don't determine it, but it's a part of the form. So 3 when they request it, they put the date, time and what the 4 purpose of the sale is. 5 Q Okay. And are there any times where you look at the date, 6 time and location of the sale, and you change--and change 7 what the students, faculty member or outsider wrote for a 8 sale? 9 A The only reason that we would have a change, a date, time or 10 location is if there was a previous reservation or the 11 facility that they want to use is already being in use. 12 Q Okay. Are there any--do you recall any situation where a 13 student, faculty member or outsider was seeking permission 14 for a sale where you changed the location, and it was an 15 outside location? 16 A I'm not following. 17 Q Okay. 18 A I'm sorry. Go ahead. 42a 19 Q Okay. The line concerning Dean of Students states that you 20 have to approve the location of a sale. Has a student ever 21 submitted a sales solicitation request for a sale where you 22 changed the location for them? 23 A I don't remember that happening. 24 Q Okay. Would you look at the third paragraph, first line? 25 It says the university, "requires prior approval for all CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [21] 1 solicitations on campus by any person or organization." You 2 stated earlier that this applied--that students and faculty 3 did not have to fill out a solicitation form. The first 4 line here seems to contradict that. Can you explain why 5 students and faculty do not have to fill out a solicitation 6 form when it says that prior approval is required by any 7 person or organization? 8 A Well, I think the---when we took a look at making the 9 changes in this form, we looked at being--that it would be 10 for groups off campus that were coming onto campus. And I 11 believe that that is more talking toward a person or an 12 organization that was not affiliated with the university. 13 Q Is there any reason that you know of that the word, 14 outside--by any outside person or organization wasn't added 15 to the policy? 16 A I do not know. 17 Q Okay. The second line of the third paragraph states, - 18 "Again, the Dean of Students will approve the date and time 19 of the solicitation." I believe that, again, refers to the 20 sentence in the paragraph above where it's talking about the 43a 21 Dean of Students. Do you know if that sentence refers to 22 that previous sentence? 23 A To me? 24 Q Well, it uses--the word, again, is used, so my understanding 25 is that this sentence would be referring also to the Dean of CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [22] 1 Students sentence in the paragraph above? 2 A That would be correct. 3 Q Okay. And it states that you will approve the date and the 4 time of the solicitation. Is that correct that you do? 5 A I would approve the--yes. 6 Q Okay. Have you ever changed the date and the time of a 7 solicitation request that was submitted to you? 8 A I can't ever remember doing that. I can't remember doing 9 that. 10 Q The next line states that you, "notify appropriate 11 University personnel regarding the campus location for the 12 solicitor.” [s that correct that you do notify university 13 personnel? 14A Yes. 15 Q Which locations have you notified university personnel of 16 concerning use by solicitors? 17 A If it's a university group that would--well, this would be 18 for the outside groups. So if it's an outside group, they 19 would use the brick walkway in front of the university 20 student activities--or the student union. 21 Q Okay. Now, if you look at the next line, it says, "The 22 designated area on campus for solicitation is the brick 23 walkway directly in front of the Beckes Student Union." In 44a 24 light of the previous sentence which talks about notifying 25 university personnel of the location, why would it be CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [23] 1 necessary to notify the university personnel of the location 2 if it was always the brick walkway? 3 A Again, | think if we have a group that comes, and we're 4 talking about outside groups coming in, we would still 5 notify the appropriate university personnel if we have off- 6 campus groups that will be on campus if that is warranted. 7 Q Okay. If there is one designated area, why would it be 8 necessary to notify concerning their location? 9 A To make them aware that we have someone on campus. 10 Q Okay. Are there any other solicitation requests that you 11 have approved where the speech--where the solicitation did 12 not occur on the brick walkway? 13 ANo. 14 Q Okay. Would you look at the sentence that reads, 15 "Solicitation is the act of seeking to obtain by persuasion; 16 to entice a person to action; or the recruiting of possible 17 sales." That is the last line in the third paragraph of the 18 policy. What does the word, solicitation, mean to you as 19 related to this policy? 20 A Well, as it says, it's the act of trying to persuade or 21 entice someone to action, and that's the way we've used that 22 here in this policy. 23 Q What does the term, "seeking to obtain by persuasion," mean 24 to you? 25 A Il would assume it means to persuade someone. CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [24] 45a 1 Q Okay. But the words of, "to obtain by persuasion" are also 2 included. Is it just--you stated earlier that sometimes 3 students are involved in just exchanging ideas. Couldn't 4 that also be a form of obtaining by persuasion that would 5 require them to fill out a solicitation request? 6 A Well, again, when we talked about this, and we put this 7 down, we were looking at the outside groups. We weren't 8 looking at the university groups. 9 Q Okay. And do you require an outsider to actually be trying 10 to obtain something in order for the solicitation request to 11 be followed? Okay. I can rephrase that. 12 A Thank you. 13 Q One of the definitions for solicitation is seeking to obtain 14 by persuasion. Do you require an outsider to be obtaining 15 something by persuasion rather than just seeking to persuade 16 in order to fill out a solicitation request? 17 A I'm not understanding that there's a whole lot of difference 18 between seeking to obtain or trying to persuade. I'm not 19 clear on the question. 20 Q Well, I'm confused with the words "to obtain by persuasion." 21 To obtain means to get something. And so if you're not 22 seeking to get something, how would that be seeking to 23 obtain by persuasion? 24 AI guess I can't answer it. I'm not understanding what 25 you're trying to--what you're asking. CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [25] 1 Q All right. So basically, whether you're trying to persuade 46a 2 somebody or seeking to obtain something by persuasion, you 3 consider both covered by the policy? 4 A I'm sorry. I don't mean to be difficult. I'm just having a * 5 tough--I'm not understanding what you're--the question. 6 Q Okay. There could be a situation where somebody is trying 7 to persuade individuals when they come on campus. And then 8 other times they're coming--other times individuals could 9 come onto campus to obtain something from students. Do you 10 require somebody to obtain in order to be covered by the 11 policy? 12 A I'm going to ask you a question. Maybe it will clear it up 13 for me. There is speech to persuade someone to do 14 something, or there's speech te persuade them to give you 15 something. Is that what you're asking? 16 Q Yes, that's what I'm asking. 17 A I think this would cover it both then. 18 Q Okay. Thank you. What does the term "enticing a person to 19 action" mean to you? 20 A Through--it would be to act or to--I guess it would be to 21 act, for a person to act. 22 Q Thank you. Approximately, how often do you notify 23 university personnel of solicitors? 24 A We would notify them whenever a policy is applied for. , 25 Q Do you mean whenever a request form-- CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [26] 1 A I'm sorry. Yes, whenever a request is made. 47a 2 Q Okay. And on a weekly basis about how many times does that 3 occur? 4 A It wouldn't even be on a weekly basis. 5 Q Okay. Do you know where the start and the end of the brick 6 walkway in front of the Beckes Student Union is? 7 A Where the start and the end is? 8 Q Yes. 9 AI would say from the building to the street. 10 Q The building to the street. And then what about the length? 11 When does it start, and when does it end? When does the 12 sidewalk start and end? 13 A In front of the union, the area in front of the union is all 14 brick, so it's pretty well laid out just because of the 15 brick itself. 16 Q Does the brick walkway start at the--one side of the 17 building and go to the other side of the building, or does 18 it go beyond the building? 19 A It does not go beyond the building. It's an area right in 20 front of the doors, and, again, it's the brick area. 21 Q Is it the brick area that spans the entire building or just 22 in front of the doors? 23 A I don't think there is any brick that spans the entire 24 building. 25 Q Okay. Do you recall when Jim Gilles visited the campus in CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [27] 1 2001? 2A Yes. 3 Q What do you recall about that event from start to finish? 4 A I would have been notified that he was--that there was a 48a 5 speaker on campus. When I went there, he was in the grassy 6 area in front of the library. He had had--he was speaking 7 to a number of students there. There was some--a 8 disturbance, and at one point the campus police felt like he 9 was in danger. And they asked him to leave, and he did. 10 Q Was Mr. Gilles disrupting any classes when he was in 11 Vincennes University in 2001? 12 A That's hard for me to say. I'm not an instructor. He 13 wasn't--he was outside, but I don't know if he did or not. 14 Q Do you know the area where Mr. Gilles was at during his 15 first visit? 16 A Uh-huh, yes. 17 Q Where was that? 18 A It was a grassy area in front of the library and beside the 19 administration building. 20 Q Are there any classrooms that are in that immediate 21 vicinity? 22 A There's a classroom building probably--there's a classroom 23 building right next to the library and the classroom 24 building down the street, so it would be less than a block. 25 Q Okay. Did anybody--did any administration or faculty CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [28] 1 approach Mr. Gilles when he was at the university in 2001? 2 A Did they approach him? 3 Q Yes. 4 A In what way? 5 Q Did anyone related to the university approach Mr. Gilles 6 when he was there at the campus in 2001? 49a 7 A If you're asking were there faculty or staff present, I know 8 that there was staff present. 9 Q Who was present when Mr. Gilles was speaking in 2001? 10 A I was there, and the chief of police, Harold Hensley, was 11 there. I believe--I can't say for sure anybody else, but I 12 know the two of us were there. 13 Q Did any of you--did any of the officials that you just named 14 speak to Mr. Gilles on that day? 15 A Mr. Hensley did. 16 Q Do you know--did you hear what Mr. Hensley said to Mr. 17 Gilles? 18 A Yes. He said, I--and this isn't a quote, but I'll 19 paraphrase. 20 Q Thank you. 21 A But basically, he said, I am worried about you; that there's 22 risk, and I'm asking you to leave the campus. 23 Q Okay. Do you know what the risk was for Mr. Gilles? 24 A He was receiving threats from students. 25 Q Do you know which students-- CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [29] 1 A No. 2 Q --threatened Mr. Gilles or appeared to threaten Mr. Gilles? 3 AI don't know names, no. 4 Q Could we jump back to a moment to the designated area in 5 front of the student union? 6 A Uh-huh. 50a 7 Q Do you know why that specific area of campus was designated 8 for solicitation or any request by an outsider to engage in 9 speech? 10 A Why that area? 11 Q Yes. 12 A It's in front of the student union, and it seemed to be a 13 reasonable area for people to be able to speak since it is 14 the union. 15 Q Did you have any concerns about groups gathering and traffic 16 issues since the brick walkway is in front of a couple 17 different streets? 18 A Did we have any concerns? 19 Q Yes. 20 A We've used that area for other things, and it's worked out 21 before for large gatherings, and we felt that that was an 22 appropriate place. 23 Q Are there any other areas of campus that you think are 24 appropriate for speech activity by outsiders, students or 25 faculty? CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [30] 1 A More appropriate or as appropriate? 2 Q Both, just generally? 3 AI feel very comfortable with the area that we've chosen. 4 Q Is that the area where--what other areas do students--it 5 doesn't have to be all three, but which areas have been used 6 for speech activities on campus by any person? 7 A The humanities, they will have a poetry reading in front of 8 the humanities building. There's an area by the dining 9 center where people have had events; and, also, the area 10 next to the student union that there is a large brick patio S5la 11 kind of place. 12 Q In front of the student union or beside where they're at? 13 A Well, in front of the union, but also beside in the park. 14 Q Okay. Have any other student groups used the library lawn 15 area to engage in speech activities? 16 A Not to my knowledge. 17 Q Are you aware that Campus Christian Fellowship handed out 18 free watermelon on August 29, 2002 when Mr. Gilles was at 3 19 the campus, and they did that on the library lawn? 20 A It wasn't on the lawn. It was in front of the library, but 21 it was not on the lawn. 22 Q Do you know--did you recall the location of the table of the 23 Campus Christian Fellowship on that day? 24 A It would have been in front of the library, but it would 25 have been on the brick walkway. There's an area right there CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [31] 1 in front of the library. 2 Q Okay. 3 A And the Christian Campus Fellowship is a university group. 4 It's a club, an organization. 5 Q Okay. Is Scott--do you know Scott Shipman? 6A Yes. 7 Q Okay. And what is his relationship to the university? 8 A He serves as advisor for that group. 9 Q Is he a university employee? 10 A I don't believe he is paid by the university, but I'm not 1i sure of that. 52a 12 Q Do you know if the Campus Christian Fellowship, do you know 13 how they had Scott Shipman join their group? 14 A He's been with them for as long as I've been at the 15 university. 16 Q Do you know if he's an outside minister? 17 A I'm not--I don't know. 18 Q Okay. Thank you. Do you recall Mr. Gilles's second Visit 19 to the university in August of 2002? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Could you describe that event from start to finish? 22 A As best I can, he, I think, was in front of the library 23 again, that grassy area at that time--and this was before I 24 came, but he was told to come to the--to my office to fill 25 out the request. I was actually on my way to that area and CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [32] 1 met him on the sidewalk between the union and the library. 2 We walked back to my office. He filled out a solicitation. 3 We talked for a little bit, and then he went out to the 4 brick walkway. 5 Q Do you recall the events before he came to your office? 6 A I wasn't around, so [ don't know what occurred. 7 Q Were you told what occurred before Mr. Gilles came to your 8 office? 9 AI would have been called to say Mr. Gilles was on--in front 10 of the library, and that would have prompted me to start 11 walking that way. 12 Q Okay. Who called you concerning Mr. Gilles's visit? 13 A Don't know. 14 Q Okay. Were you called and asked to come outside, or were 53a 15 you just called and given information? 16 A Again, I don't know. I don't remember the phone call 17 specifically. 18 Q Okay. I'm confused. Did you come outside because of the 19 call, or were you already outside? 20 A No, I was in the office and got the call, and I was walking 21 over there and then met Reverend Gilles in the way. 22 Q Did you walk outside because you were planning to go see 23 what Mr. Gilles was doing, or were you on your way to do 24 another errand? 25 A No, no, I was going over to talk with Reverend Gilles. CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [33] 1 Q Okay. Did you talk to Mr. Gilles-- 2 A Ub-huh. 3 Q --outside--outside of your--outside of your office building? 4 A As we were walking back to the office, yes. 5 Q Do you recall what you said to Mr. Gilles? 6 A No. 7 Q Okay. Do you recall what Mr. Gilles said to you? 8 A In the time outside? 9Q Yes. 10 A No. 11 Q Okay. Do you recall what occurred inside your office with 12 Mr. Gilles? 13 A 1 do remember him reviewing the policy and him filling out a 14 solicitation for us. 15 Q Okay. Do you recall--okay. 54a 16 MS. MURRAY: Would you mark this as Exhibit 2, please? | 17 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 2 MARKED) 18 Q Do you recall this document? 19 A Uh-huh. 20 Q What is that documents? 21 A This is our sales and solicitation policy. 22 Q Do you recall giving that document to Mr. Gilles? 23 A Yes. 24 Q When did you give that to Mr. Gilles? 25 A In my office. CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [34] 1 Q Do you recall writing--underlining the sentence in the 2 policy? 3 A No, I don't. 4 Q Okay. Do you recall writing the name on the bottom of the 5 page? 6 A That's not my handwriting. 7 Q Okay. Do you remember what you told Mr. Gilles about the 8 policy? 9 A No--verbatim, no. 10 Q What do you recall to the best of your recollection? 11 A That we had designated an area in front of the student union 12 as the spot for him to speak, and he was welcome to speak 13 there. 14 Q Okay. Can Mr. Gilles--is there anything that Mr. Gilles 15 could say on campus, and it not be considered solicitation? 16 A I'm not following. 17 Q Okay. In the--can you look at the definition section of 5Sa 18 what solicitation is? 19 A Uh-huh. 20 Q It's in the third paragraph. 21 A Sure. 22 Q Is there anything that Mr. Gilles could say on campus that 23 would not be--that would not meet that definition of 24 solicitation? 25 A Again, I'm not sure what you're asking. Could he just come CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [35] 1 on and talk to people; is that what you're saying? 2Q Yes. 3 Al assume he would be welcome to come on campus. 4 Q When Mr. Gilles was told to go to the--to your office to 5 fill out a solicitation request, did you know what he was 6 going to say to students on that day? 7 A Do I know? I would not know what he was going to say. 8 Q Okay. Do you know if Mr. Hensley, Chief Hensley, knew what 9 Mr. Gilles was going to say? 10 A I would not know that. 11 Q Okay. So do you think it was premature to have Mr. Gilles | 12 fill out a solicitation request without having known what he 13 was going to say that day? 14 A No, he was an outside person to come on campus, and he was-- 15 if he's an outside group wanting to come on and speak on 16 campus, he would need to fill this out. 17 Q He would need to fill what out? 18 A I'm sorry. The sales and solicitation request. 56a 19 Q So am I understanding you that it doesn't really have to do 20 with whether or not someone's speech is solicitation so much 21 as if they're an outside group, they're required to fiil out 22 a form? 23 A If it's an outside group that has not been asked to come on 24 campus, and they want to come on campus to speak, then they 25 would fill this out, the sales and solicitation request. CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [36] 1 Q All right. What if just--so any group who comes onto 2 campus, any individual who is not--okay. So the way I'm 3 understanding is that any outside group, any outside 4 individual who is coming onto campus, even if their speech 5 doesn't qualify as solicitation, they still need to fill out 6 a solicitation request; is that correct? 7 A No, that's not correct because, again, if they're invited by 8 the university, then they wouldn't have to fill this out. 9 But if it's an outside group that is not invited, then we 10 ask that they fill this out so that we're aware of who is on 11 our campus. 12 Q Okay. Would you take a look at this? 13 MS. MURRAY: And would you please mark it as Exhibit 3? 14 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 3 MARKED) 15 Q Do you recall that form? 16A Yes. 17 Q What is that form? 18 A This is the request that Mr. Gilles filled out in 2002. 19 Q Okay. What location did you approve on this--on Mr. 20 Gilles's request for solicitation approval? ~ 21 A The Beckes Student Union. S7a 22 Q What was Mr. Gilles's preferred location on that day? 23 A He wrote down west library lawn. 24 Q Why didn't you cross that out when you signed the form? 25 AI don't know. CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [37] 1 Q Okay. And, again, did you go by and see the Campus 2 Christian Fellowship's table when they were handing out 3 watermelon on August 29, 2002? 4 AI did not. 5 Q Did you see the table when you were informally escorting Mr. 6 Gilles back to your office? 7 A [hadn't gotten that far. 8 Q Okay. Were you aware that they were handing out watermelon 9 on that day? 10 A I can't say for sure that I was. 11 Q Why did you tell Mr. Gilles that he could not engage in 12 speech in the west library lawn? 13 A I was following the policy that we had set up for the 14 designated area on campus for solicitation, which would be 15 the brick walkway in front of the union. 16 Q Okay. And looking again at the solicitation policy that 17 states that there is a designated area, the sentence before 18 that states that you can, "notify appropriate university 19 personnel regarding the campus location of a solicitor". Is 20 that correct that the policy reads that? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Why couldn't you have notified university personnel that Mr. 23 Gilles wanted to use the library lawn as a place for 24 solicitation? 58a 25 A Because that wasn't part of what the policy states. CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [38] 1 Q Is there anything on the--could you refer to Exhibit 3? 2 A This? 3 Q Yes, it is the solicitation form Mr. Gilles filled out. 4A Yes. 5 Q Is there anything on that form that would indicate that Mr. 6 Gilles wanted to engage in solicitation on the campus? 7 A I believe it states here that it would be an open forum. 8 Q An open forum is to me a descriptive word. What is-- was 9 there anything that would be--state specifically what Mr. 10 Gilles had intended to do on the campus that day? 11 A It doesn't state here. That's the only words on here on the 12 solicitation request. 13 Q How did you have any knowledge--if there was nothing on the 14 form to indicate that Mr. Gilles wanted to engage in 15 solicitation, how did you know Mr. Gilles was going to 16 engage in solicitation? 17 A In--without knowing exactly what the conversation was, | 18 can't say what we talked about. 19 MS. MURRAY: Would you please mark this as Exhibit 4? 20 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 4 MARKED) 21 Q Okay. Thank you. Do you recall this exhibit? 22 A Yes. 23 Q What ts this? 24 A This is an affidavit that | had for court. 25 Q Would you turn to page 3, please? Is that your signature? 59a CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [39] 1A Yes. 2 Q Did you affirm that this document is true and correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Would you look at paragraph 5, please? 5 A I'm not-- 6 Q Line 5, page 1. 7 A Okay. 8 Q The fifth line states that, "In order to carry out its 9 mission of education, Vincennes University has adopted a 10 Sales and/or Solicitation Policy which is attached as 11 Exhibit A.” Is that correct? , 12 A That's correct. 13 Q How does the Sales and/or Solicitation Policy advance the 14 educational mission of the university? 15 A In this case it would be a way for us to be aware of the 16 people on campus, and it would allow us reasonable notice 17 when we're going to have people from the outside groups 18 coming in that weren't invited. | 19 Q Looking back to Exhibit 1-- 20 A This one? 21 Q Yes. Is the term, invited or uninvited, in that policy? 22 A No, it's not. 23 Q How did the term, uninvited and invited, come to be a factor 24 concerning the policy? 25 A Well, when we wrote it, you know, we wrote that with that CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [40] 1 thought in mind. 60a 2 Q Okay. Was there any reason that you just didn't say policy 3 for outsiders? 4 A No, not that I'm aware of. 5 Q Would you look to paragraph 7 of Exhibit 4? It states that, 6 "Since the adoption of the policy, the open areas of the 7 campus have not been open to outside speakers." 8 A That's correct. 9 Q Why is that the case? 10 A The outside speakers--and, again, the policy states that we 11 would have the designated area in front of the union as that 12 area on campus. 13 MS. MURRAY: Would you mark this as Exhibit 5, please? 14 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 5 MARKED) 15 Q Do you recognize Exhibit 5? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Do you need a moment to review it? 18 A Please. 19 (WITNESS EXAMINES DOCUMENT) 20 A Okay. 21 Q Does this letter reference the Gideons group? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Are the Gideons an outside group, or are they a student 24 organization? 25 A They are an outside group. CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [41] 1 Q In the affidavit that we just referenced, it states that 2 since the passage of the policy, outside groups have not 3 been permitted on campus. This was in paragraph 7 of the 4 affidavit. 6la 5 A They had not been permitted on the open areas; is that what 6 you mean? 7 Q Well, paragraph 7 of the affidavit says outside speakers 8 have not been permitted following the sales or solicitation 9 policy? 10 A Didn't say not permitted. It says not open to outside 11 speakers. 12 Q Okay. Do you know what activity the Gideons are involved in | 13 when they visited the campus? ; 14 A The Gideons pass out Bibles. 15 Q Okay. Do you know where the Gideons pass out Bibles? 16 A There are a couple different locations on campus. 17 Specifically, I don't know. 18 Q Okay. Does the letter specifically identify the area where 19 the Gideons pass out Bibles? 20 A No, it does not. 21 Q Do you know why Scott Shipman was not required to identify 22 the Beckes Student Union brick walkway as the location to 23 pass out Bibles? 24 A As Christian Campus Fellowship is a student organization at 25 Vincennes University, they invited the Gideons on campus to CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [42] 1 do this, so they were allowed to be on campus. 2 Q Do you know if this sponsorship possibility or option for 3 outside groups was communicated to Mr. Gilles? 4 A | don't remember that. 62a 5 Q Is the possibility of sponsorship set forth in the policy 6 for solicitation? 7 A No, it was not. 8 Q Do you know why it was not? 9 ANo. 10 Q How long has there been a practice to allow a student 11 organization to sponsor an outside group? 12 AA practice? 13 Q How long has that been going on? 14 A Student groups have brought people on campus for time. That 15 happens quite a bit. 16 Q Okay. Why weren't the Gideons required to fill out a 17 solicitation form? 18 A They did. 19 Q Were they--did they have to do that--the letter that I just 20 showed you looks as if Scott Shipman was merely notifying 21 you of their visit, so it does not appear to be a 22 solicitation form? 23 A This letter is not a solicitation form, but the Gideons 24 would have been required to fill out one, also. But this 25 form would have verified that they were inviting the Gideons CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [43] 1 to campus, this letter. 2 Q Do you consider handing out free Bibles solicitation? 3 A Do I-- 4 Q Do you consider handing out free Bibles solicitation? 5 AI would not. 6 Q Okay. So why would the Gideons be required to fill out a 7 form if that wouldn't constitute solicitation? 63a 8 A Well, again, it would be an outside group or the possibility 9 of an outside group; but with Christian Campus Fellowship 10 inviting them, then they were able to do the distribution. 11 Q Do you know where the 2003 solicitation form of the Gideons 12 is? 13 A No, I do not. 14 Q That was not something that was provided in the defense 15 disclosures. 16 A I don't know why it wouldn't be in there. 17 Q What activities can an outside group get sponsored for by a 18 student group? 19 A I'm not-- 20 Q Okay. You permitted the Gideons to be sponsored to enable 21 them to pass out Bibles. What-- 22 A That's not something that I--I mean, the relationship with 23 the Christian Campus Fellowship and the Gideons was not 24 something that I allowed. I mean, that was just something 25 that was formed. But then the Christian Campus Fellowship CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [44] | would invite them here. I guess student groups can invite 2 anyone to campus. 3 Q Do you place any restrictions on who a student group yan 4 sponsor to engage in activity on the campus? 5 A We have not. 64a 6 Q Since a location was not specified in the Gideons--for the 7 Gideons in that letter, could the Gideons have passed out 8 Bibles anywhere on campus? 9A Yes. 10 Q Would that include the library lawn area? 11 A It could. 12 Q Do you know if it did? 13 AI do not know. 14 Q Do you know the exact date the solicitation policy that we 15 looked at as Exhibit 1 was put into effect? 16 A I don't know the exact date. That might be something that 17 we have here on file. 18 Q What is your best recollection of when that occurred? 19 A It seems it was the summer of 2002. Go over the minutes or 20 something. 21 MR. SIEWERS: It was June 26th of '02. 22 MS. MURRAY: Thank you. 23 MR. SIEWERS: Here's the document, if you want. 24 MS. MURRAY: Okay. Thank you. 25 Q I don't recall if you stated whether or not the Gideons CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [45] 1 filled out a request for 2003 or just if you didn't have 2 that; do you recall? 3 A What I said was I do not recall if they did or not or why it 4 was not there. 5 Q Okay. When were the 2002 solicitation requests discarded? 6 A We would have gotten rid of those at the end of the year. 7 Q Okay. 65a 8 A We usually keep--we kept them through the year, during the 9 school year. 10 Q Are you aware of the letter that your attorney sent to our : 11 office in the fall of 2002? 12 A No, I'm not. 13 Q Okay. 14 A No. 15 MS. MURRAY: Can you mark this, please? 16 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 6 MARKED) 17 Q Would you read the first line of that letter? And, first of 18 all, would you take a moment to see who signed it? 19 A Uh-huh. Okay. 20 Q Okay. Do you recall reviewing that letter at any point? 21 AI don't remember. 22 Q Would you read the first line? 23 A "Our office represents Vincennes University. I am writing 24 in response to your November 7, 2002 correspondence 25 regarding James Gilles.” CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [46] 1 Q Would you also look on the second page where a courtesy copy 2 was provided to you? 3 A Uh-huh. 4 Q If you were put on notice concerning possible litigation due 5 to Mr. Gilles's 2002 visit, why were the 2002 forms 6 discarded? 7 MR. SIEWERS: I'll object that he was put on--to the » characterization that he was put onto notice as to 9 possible litigation, but go ahead and answer. 66a 10 A I don't have a reason why they weren't. We had never kept 11 them before. 12 Q How long would you keep a solicitation? 13 A For the academic school year. 14 Q The academic school year. So that means in May--does that 15 mean in May of 2003 the 2002 forms were discarded? 16 A As a practice, that would be about right. 17 Q Okay. Thank you. Would you refer back to your affidavit 18 that we had looked at a moment ago? I believe that's 19 Exhibit 3. 20 A Hold on here. Yes. 21 Q Would you mind looking at paragraph 17, please? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Paragraph 17 states that the solicitation policy was 24 designed to prevent disruption. Do you know if the term, 25 disruption, appears in the solicitation policy? CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [47] 1 A i do not see it. 2 Q Does the policy define disruption at all? 3 ANo. 4 Q Does the policy discuss solicitation or sales that could be 5 disruptive? 6 A I'm sorry. I didn't hear. 7 Q Does the policy--is there other speech that could become 8 disruptive on campus that may not be sales or solicitation? 9 A Is that started here in this policy? 10 Q Yes. 11 A It is not stated in this policy. 12 Q Okay. Is there any other university policy that addresses 13 disruptive speech? 67a 14 A There would--the student conduct code would address 15 disrupting university events or different things like that. 16 Is that what you are asking? 17 Q [ am asking concerning any policy that you're aware of that 18 discusses disruption? 19 A The student conduct code, I know, does. 20 Q Does that address student conduct or outside conduct? 21 A It's a student conduct code. 22 Q Is there any other policy that defines either faculty 23 disruption or outsider disruption? 24 A Not that I'm aware of. 25 MS. MURRAY: Excuse me just a second. CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [48] 1 MR. SIEWERS: Can we take about a two-minute break, 2 rest room break? 3 MS. MURRAY: Sure. 4 MR. KELLUM: Sure. 5 (A SHORT BREAK WAS TAKEN) 6 Q The next exhibit I want you to look at, please, is 7 Defendants’ Answers to Plaintiff's First Set of 8 Interrogatories. | was wondering maybe if your attorney 9 would have that. 10 MS. MURRAY: Do you know? 11 MR. SIEWERS: Yeah. 12 MS. MURRAY: Thank you. 13 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 7 MARKED) 14 Q Okay. Let me take this one back from you. Would you- -do 15 you recognize the document you're looking at? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Would you look at page 4, please? 18 A Is that your signature on page 4? 19 A Yes, it is. 68a 20 Q Did you certify that this document is true and correct? 21 A That is correct. 22 Q And what is this document? 23 A This is the interrogatories again regarding questions 24 concerning this case. 25 Q Thank you. Would you look at interrogatory number 12, CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [49] 1 please? In interrogatory number 12 you identified 2 individuals, entities and organizations that had engaged in 3 expression on Vincennes University campus over the last five 4 years who were not sponsored by anyone affiliated with the 5 university or a student organization registered with 6 Vincennes University; is that correct? _ 7A That's correct. 8 Q In your answer you identified in "C" the Gideons as a group 9 that had engaged in expressive activity without being 10 sponsored? 11 A That is correct. 12 Q What do you recall about the Gideons's visit when they were 13 not sponsored? 14 A They were asked to stay in front of the student union on the 15 brick walkway. 16 Q When was the visit of the Gideons prior to them being 17 sponsored by another group? 18 A When was it? 19 Q Please. 20 A It would have been--i don't know for sure. I would say 21 2002. 69a 22 Q Okay. When the Gideons were at the campus in 2003, we just 23 looked at the letter from Scott Shipman. So it would have 24 to be, I would assume, before 2003? 25 A That would be my guess. CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [50] 1 Q Okay. When the Gideons were there in what you assume to be 2 2002, or previous--do you think it was 2002, or do you think 3 it's previous to 2002? 4 A I believe they'd been there prior, but 2002 would have been 5 after the new policy came into effect. 6 Q Okay. Were the Gideons there prior to 2002? 7 A They came every year. 8 Q Okay. And what do you recall about the event when the 9 Gideons were on campus in 2002? 10 A I remembered that they contacted our office, and we 11 requested that they stay in front of the union. 12 Q Okay. Did the Gideons fill out a solicitation form in 2002? 13 AI would say they would have. 14 Q Okay. And where do you recall the Gideons handing out 15 Bibles in 2002? 16 A In front of the union. 17 Q Okay. Do you know when in 2002 the Gideons passed out 18 Bibles? 19 A I wouldn't know. 20 Q Okay. Before the passage of the solicitation policy that 21 was marked as Exhibit |, did the Gideons engage in speech in 70a 22 areas other than the student union and other than the brick 23 walkway at the student union? 24 A When you say engage in speech, do you mean the passing out 25 of the Bibles? CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [51] 1A Yes. 2 Q They would have--prior to the passage, they would have done 3 that in other areas besides the union. 4 Q Were you the one who came up with the idea that the brick 5 walkway should be the designated spot for groups to solicit? 6 A I don't think that was me. That area was brought up or 7 assigned through discussion. 8 Q And what do you recall about that discussion? 9 A We wanted it to be a reasonable place where students would 10 be, and we felt the student union was that reasonable spot. 11 Q And how is the brick--the designated brick walkway in front 12 of the student union more ideal than other areas of campus? 13 A It's not necessarily more ideal. We just felt it was 14 reasonable. 15 Q Okay. Do you think that the student union area--the brick 16 walkway at the student union is more reasonable than the 17 library lawn? 18 A I'm not-- 19 Q I'll rephrase that. Do you think that the designated brick 20 walkway in front of the student union is an area that's more Tila 21 suited for speech than the library lawn? . 22 A I don't know that it would be more, but it did provide us 23 with some other things as far as being aware. Our campus 24 police is right next door. My office is in the student 25 union. So it seemed to be a reasonable area for us to be CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [52] 1 able to use for free speech. 2 Q Do you know what other areas were brought up in the 3 discussion in choosing a location to designate as a place 4 for solicitation? 5 A I really don't remember any other areas that we discussed. 6 Q Do you know if the west library lawn was discussed as a 7 possible location to engage in speech? 8 A I don't believe it was. 9 MS. MURRAY: Would you mark another exhibit, please? 10 And actually, I only have one copy, also. This is a 11 Verified Complaint. 12 MR. SIEWERS: Your complaint? 13 MS. MURRAY: Yes, our Verified Complaint and then also 14 your amended answer if you don't mind. 15 MR. SIEWERS: Okay. 16 MS. MURRAY: I'm sorry. I didn't have copies. You can 17 mark mine. Thank you. 18 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 8 MARKED) 19 MR. SIEWERS: | have notes on my copy of the complaint, 20 so-- 21 MS. MURRAY: Okay. She marked mine, so he just has to 22 be able to look at it unless you don't want him-- 23 MR. SIEWERS: Yeah, it's fine if John looks at it. 24 MS. MURRAY: Yeah. 72a 25 MR. SIEWERS: I don't necessarily want you to look at CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [53] 1 it. 2 MS. MURRAY: No, I won't. 3 MR. SIEWERS: Okay. 4 Q Would you turn to paragraph 27 of the complaint? 5 A Okay. 6 Q Paragraph 27 states that, "During the course of the calendar 7 year of 2003, Vincennes University hosted numerous events 8 and expressive activities that could constitute an act of 9 ‘enticing a person to action." And then it goes on to list 10 various events. Next, could we look at the Amended Answer? 11 MS. MURRAY: Could you mark this, also? 12 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 9 MARKED) 13 Q Do you recognize the Amended Answer? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Even though your signature is not on the Amended Answer, do 16 you recall approving this document before it was sent to the 17 court? 18 A I remember looking at this, yes. 19 Q Okay. Would you look at paragraph 27-- 20 A Yes. 21 Q --of the Amended Answer? It states that, "The defendants 22 admit that numerous events including those listed were held 23 on the Vincennes University campus which were sponsored by 24 students, faculty or staff which could constitute ‘enticing 73a 25 a person to action.” The last sentence states, "The CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [54] | answering defendants have insufficient information 2 concerning the dates." Looking back at the Verified 3 Complaint, could you look again at the Verified Complaint? 4 A Uh-huh, I've got it. 5 Q Okay. Thank you. Do you know if on page 6, do you know if 6 Craig Karges filled out a solicitation request when he came 7 onto campus in 2003? 8 A He would not have because he was an invited person. He was 9 something that the Student Activities Office had booked as 10 an entertainer. 11 Q Okay. Could you say again who sponsored him? 12 A Student Activities. 13 Q Okay. Student Activities Office? 14A Yes. 15 Q Okay. Could you look at letter "B" under 27, the TB-- 16 A TB Rescrenning. 17 Q --Rescreening? Did the rescreening submit a solicitation 18 request? 19 A That was done through our Health Office. We had a student 20 who had TB, so it was a service that we were providing for 21 university students and staff. 22 Q Is that something that-- 23 A They would not have filled out a solicitation request. 24 Q Did the students invite them onto campus, or did-- 25 A It's-- 74a CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [55] 1 Q Just a moment, please. 2 A Oh, I'm sorry. 3 Q Did the students invite them, or did the university invite 4 the TB Rescreening to come on campus? 5 A That was actually our Health Office, the university's Health 6 Office that did that. 7 Q Could you move to letter "C"? That lists the Student 8 Part-Time Job Fair. Did they fill out a solicitation 9 request in 2003? 10 A No, they did not. That was also our Career Center that did 11 that. 12 Q Moving to "D", The Man Without a Face, testimony from Rick 13 Bender. Do you know if Rick Bender filled out a 14 solicitation request? 15 A That gentleman was contracted through our Counseling Office 16 regarding smoking--or not smoking, I guess, so he did not 17 fill out a solicitation. 18 Q Could you look at letter "E", please? It states that Health 19 Screening was on campus in 2003. Do you know if--do you 20 know who was the organization behind Health Screening? 21 A I believe that was our student nurses, and they did that as 22 a part of their practicum or their training, so they would 23 not have filled out a solicitation. 24 Q Could you look at letter "F", please? Ariana Huffington 25 came to campus to speak. Do you know if she was sponsored 75a CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [56] 1 by someone? 2 A She was sponsored by the Business and Public Service 3 Division. 4 Q And, again, was there any request that was filled out? 5 A No. We--there was not a solicitation request filled out. 6 This was in conjunction with the student activities where 7 they had made application for funding. 8 Q Would that have been true for A through E that we already 9 looked at that there may be documentation other than 10 solicitation requests for those individuals and groups? 11 A Mr. Karges and Mr. Bender possibly--well, The Man Without a | 12 Face would have been something through Student Activities 13 Office. Karges would have been through the Student 14 Activities Office. The other two would not have been. 15 Q Could you look at letter "G"? A Dr. Peter DeBene--do you 16 know how to pronounce that? 17 A No, I don't. I'm sorry. 18 Q Okay. Was that particular Dr. Peter, was he sponsored bya 19 particular organization? 20 A Since it's talking about college students and smoking, I'm 21 going to make the assumption it was through our Counseling 22 Office again. And it kind of went along with the timing of 23 the other gentleman, Rick Bender, on the same subject, so 24 I'll say it was--it would have been through our Counseling 25 Office, but I do not know that for sure. CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [57] 76a 1 Q Did you go and ask the Counseling Office concerning that 2 prior to coming here today? 3 A Have | asked them specifically about this gentleman? 4Q Yes. 5 A No. 6 Q Okay. And so where do you--what do you base that statement 7 on? 8 A I'm only basing it on the fact that it says that it's to 9 influence consumers, particularly college students to begin 10 smoking--or about--oh, wait a second. I'm sorry. I misread 11 this. I apologize. It's a nationally recognized author on 12 media literacy, so I don't know where he would have gone. I 13 apologize. I looked at smoking and made an assumption. 14 Q Okay. So if he was not from the Health Department, do you 15 know who sponsored him? 16 A I would not, not without doing some research. 17 Q Okay. Could you look at letter "H", the Manufacturing Job 18 Fair? Do you know who sponsored the Manufacturing Job Fair, 19 if they were sponsored? 20 A I can say that it would be the Career Center or our 21 Placement Office, but that would be a guess. 22 Q Okay. If you would look at "J", the Prentis Hall sales 23 representative came to campus. How did they come about to 24 coming to campus? 25 A I'd have to look. I do not know. CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [58] 77a 1 Q If you look again to your Amended Answer, it states that in 2 fact that all of these groups you said were sponsored by 3 students, faculty or staff. Did you-- 4 MR. SIEWERS: I'll object to that. He didn't say that. 5 I said that. 6 MS. MURRAY: Okay. Are you aware of something 7 different at this point? 8 MR. SIEWERS: It's my belief that they were. I mean, I 9 obviously signed the answer in good faith. 10 A Sure. In looking at these, I could make a guess on what 11 they all are. 12 Q Okay. 13 A The Prentis Hall sales would be bookstore. But, again, I 14 want to be truthful, and I want to make sure that what I'm 15 telling you is, you know, what | know. But it's not 16 uncommon for, you know, the different departments to bring 17 folks in to do sales and things like that. 18 Q Okay. And so what do you believe to have been the group 19 behind Prentis Hall's coming to campus? 20 A I think Prentis Hall is a book company, so my assumption 21 would be the bookstore. 22 Q Okay. Looking at letter "K", there was a Tupperware 23 Multihost Bingo Party. Do you know how they came to campus? 24 A That, I would say is the Generations. Generations is a 25 university organization, and they do Tupperware and bingo CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [59] 1 sales as a fund raiser for their programs. 78a 2 Q What is Generations? 3 A It's a program--a university program that assists elderly 4 and provides some things for them. 5 Q So Generations is sponsored by the university; is that 6 correct? 7 A Yes. Yes, it's a university department. 8 Q Okay. Next is Kevin Riggins as letter "L". How did Kevin 9 Riggins come to the campus? 10 A He was sponsored by the Athletic Department. He spoke 11 against steroid use. 12 Q Would you please look at letter "M"? 13 A Uh-huh. 14 Q Kelly Craig came to the campus in 2003. 15 A Yes. 16 Q How did she come to campus? 17 A Student Activities, through part of the speakers series. 18 Q Thank you. The last one is "N", the Red Cross Blood Drive. ; 19 How did the Red Cross come to campus? 20 A Again, through Student Activities and the Student Center. 21 We've had a longstanding relationship with blood drives at 22 the university, so they've always been invited to campus 23 through our offices. 24 Q Are they invited twice a year or how many times? 25 A It's three. We have one in September, one in December and CROSSROADS COURTREPORTING [60] 1 one in February. 2 Q Does someone from the Red Cross call and set up an 3 appointment, or do you call the Red Cross? 79a 4 A We work together to set dates up because we need facilities 5 for a certain amount of time, so we usually, when we set the 6 calendars, we just get together and work out what's the best 7 dates. 8 Q Thank you. 9 A Uh-huh. 10 Q So, again, in all of the list has we just looked at, "A" 11 through "L" in the Verified Complaint, are you aware of any 12 solicitation requests that were filled out for any of those 13 groups? 14 A From Craig Karges through the others? 15 Q Yes. 16 A I mean, is that the ones you're talking about? 17 Q Yes, please. 18 A There would not have been any solicitation requests filled 19 out for those. 20 Q Thank you. 21 MS. MURRAY: Would you please mark this as an exhibit, 22 please? 23 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 10 MARKED) 24 MR. SIEWERS: Are we done with these? 25 MS. MURRAY: Yes, thank you. I do have copies of CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [61] 1 these. Do you want me to hand you one, also? 2 MR. SIEWERS: Sure. 3 Q Okay. Do you recognize this form? 4A Yes. 5 Q What is this? 6 A This is a Request for Solicitation Approval. 80a 7 Q Okay. Who made the request for approval? 8 A The request was made by the Indiana National Guard through 9 Chief Harold Hensley. 10 Q What is the location that you approved for this-- 11 A I'm sorry. 12 Q --just a moment, please--for the solicitation request? 13 A Sorry. The front of Morris Hall. 14 Q Why wasn't the Indiana National Guard required to go to the 15 brick walkway? 16 A Chief Harold Hensley at that time was our chief of police of 17 university police, and he invited this group to come on 18 campus. 19 Q And, again, is there any sort of policy that explains the 20 way a group or any person can get sponsorship to come onto 21 campus? 22 A No, there is not. 23 Q Is that just an understanding with university 24 administration? 25 A Yes. CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [62] 1 Q Has that been--how long has that been a practice to get 2 sponsorship through faculty or student organization? 3 A As far as the utilization for this policy, it would be since 4 the inception of our new policy. 5 Q Did student groups sponsor outside organizations before the 6 solicitation policy? 7 A Yes, they would have. 8 Q Did this request occur before or after the solicitation 9 policy? 8la 10 A This occurred after--are we talking about the new policy? 11 Q Yes. 12 A Yes, it occurred after. 13 Q And in your mind this sponsorship does not violate the 14 policy as far as that all organizations must receive prior 15 approval? 16 A Correct. As I stated, when we put the policy together, we 17 were looking at outside groups to coming in that were not 18 invited by a university group or organization or student 19 staff. 20 Q Okay. And is that your signature on the bottom of this 21 request? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Do you know why it's even necessary to fill out a 24 solicitation request if invited? 25 A It's not necessary, but it's a nice thing that a lot of CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [63] 1 these folks do just to let us be aware that they're coming 2 on campus. 3 Q Are most student groups consistent in submitting their 4 requests to you? 5 A Yes, they are. 6 Q What percentage would you think aren't--don't provide the 7 courtesy in filling out the request? 8 A If they're looking for money, there's really probably zero 9 because of the grants and things that we do, and we would 10 utilize that basically as a way to know when people are 11 coming. It would be a very small percentage of student 12 groups that wouldn't let us know that they've got somebody 13 coming to campus. A large majority would let us know in 82a 14 some way or another. 15 MS. MURRAY: Would you mark this as another exhibit, 16 please? 17 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 11 MARKED) 18 Q Do you recognize this form? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What is this? 21 A This is another request for solicitation approval. 22 Q And who made this request? 23 A Jamie Evans made the request for the group, Women of 24 Essence. 25 Q Is that your signature on the bottom of the page? CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [64] 1A Yes, it is. 2 Q What is the location that you approved for Jamie Evans' 3 group to solicit on campus? 4 A The location is on campus. 5 Q So does that include that Jamie Evans's group could have 6 passed out candy in the west lawn of the library? 7 A That's correct. 8 Q Was this before or after the solicitation policy? 9 A This was after. 10 Q And why wasn't their group required to go to the brick 11 walkway? 12 A This is a student organization, a recognized club on campus, 13 and so they had--they had the privilege of campus. 14 Q They had the privilege of campus? 15 A This is not an outside group. This ts a university- 16 recognized club. 17 Q And so what did that mean for them’ 18 A It means that they--they had to--since they were going to 19 sell the candy for--to raise funds, they had to do the 83a 20 request to sell, but they did not have to be restricted to 21 the brick walkway in front of the union. 22 Q Thank you. 23 MS. MURRAY: Could you mark this as an exhibit, please? 24 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 12 MARKED) 25 Q Do you recognize this form? CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [65] 1A Yes. 2 Q And what is it? 3 A This is a request for a solicitation approval. 4 Q What is the name of the organization that submitted the 5 request? 6 A It's VUPA. 7 Q Do you know what that stands for? 8 A Vincennes University Professional--I'm sorry-- Vincennes © 9 University Paralegal Association. 10 Q Is this your signature on the bottom of the page? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And was this application filled out before or after the 13 policy marked as Exhibit 1? 14 A It would be after. 15 Q Okay. What is the area that you approved for the paralegal 16 association? 17 A The library and the student union. 18 Q And why was the organization permitted in the library? Was 19 this inside the library or outside the library? 20 A Since it's February, I would say it's going to be inside. 21 Q Okay. 22 A Again, this is a university-recognized group, student group. 84a 23 They fill out the solicitation because they were--it was a 24 fund-raising thing where they were selling candy, but they 25 were able to go out on campus because they were a recognized CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [66] 1 group on campus. 2 Q So that group could have gone outside the library if they 3 had wanted; is that correct? 4A Yes, yes. 5 MS. MURRAY: Could you mark this, please? 6 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 13 MARKED) 7 Q Is this a solicitation request? 8 A Yes, it is. 9 Q And who filled this out? 10 A This was done by Scott Shipman for the Christian Campus 11 Fellowship. 12 Q Is it your signature on the bottom of the page? 13 A Yes, it is. 14 Q What is the location that you approved? 15 A In front of the library, the dorms, or by Techumseh Dining 16 Center. 17 Q And why was the Christian Campus Fellowship permitted in 18 front of the library? 19 A Again, because Christian Campus Fellowship is a recognized 20 student group on campus, and they were letting us be aware 21 of what they were doing. But, again, they have the--they 22 can be on campus since they're a recognized student group. 85a 23 Q Do you consider the activity of Christian Campus Fellowship, 24 which was handing out free items, do you consider that 25 solicitation? CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [67] 1 A Well, the handing out of the free items isn't, but they also 2 talk to the students about their organization and weekly and 3 special events. In a sense, they're soliciting for their 4 organization. 5 Q Do you know--what--would you still consider it solicitation 6 if they were handing out free items, but not informing 7 people about their group? 8 A I wouldn't think it would be solicitation. It would just be 9 handing out free stuff. 10 Q Okay. Would they have to fill out a request if they were 11 just handing out free items? 12 A As a student group, they wouldn't, but it's always nice if 13 they do that, again, to inform us what they're doing. 14 Q If Christian Campus Fellowship had just come to campus and 15 read a Bible verse, would you consider that solicitation? 16 A Would you--am I considering Christian Campus Fellowship as 17 an outside group or a student group? 18 Q As a student group? 19 A Okay. And they just came on campus to read a thing of the 20 Bible? 21 Q Yes. 86a 22 A You know, not thinking of a particular passage, just any 23 verse in general? 24 A Sure. 25 Q Would that be considered solicitation? CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [68] 1 A I don't see how that could be. 2 Q If an outsider wanted to read a Bible verse on campus, would 3 that be considered solicitation? 4 A If they're going to be an outside group coming in to do that 5 specifically, they would probably need to come by and see me 6 to set up a time or to be--to fill this out. But if they 7 were just going to come and sit down--let me refrain here. 8 Are you saying they're going to come and sit down at a park 9 bench somewhere? 10 Q I'll tell you. I'll tell you. 11 A Okay. 12 Q If an outsider came and stood in the outdoor grounds on 13 campus, read a Bible verse and left, would that be 14 considered solicitation? 15 A I would not think so. 16 Q When would you consider--what would have to be added to 17 reading a Bible verse in order for you to consider that 18 solicitation? 19 A I believe if the person--and, again, with the policy, if the 20 person is speaking to incite a person to action or to 87a 21 persuade in some way, then I would think it would fall under 22 what we perceive as solicitation in our policy. 23 Q You said inciting to action. Are you--were you attempting 24 to define what is deemed solicitation in the policy? 25 A Well, I think that's what I would base it on. I would base CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [69] 1 it on what we have in the policy. 2 MS. MURRAY: Okay. Would you mark this, please? 3 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 14 MARKED) 4 Q Is this a request for solicitation approval? 5A Yes, it is. 6 Q Who filled this out? 7 A Demetrius Brooks for BMI. 8 Q Do you know what BMI is? 9 A That's Black Male Initiative, another student group on 10 campus. 11 Q Is this your signature on the bottom of the page? 12 A Yes, it is. 13 Q What is the location that you approved? 14 A It says location. 15 Q And what is the location specified? +6 A Oh, I'm sorry. It says campus. I'm sorry. 17 Q No, you're fine. Why was BMI permitted to go in areas 18 besides the Beckes Student Union brick walkway? 19 A Again, as a student group they--they are not--they don't 20 fall in the same thing as far as an outside group. They're 21 permitted to do that. 22 Q Do you know if BMI was handing out flyers or actually 23 conducting ticket sales? 24 A Here it says they were going to pass out flyers for 88a 25 homecoming. It's a homecoming concert. They did--I don't CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [70] 1 think they were selling tickets at that time, but they were 2 notifying students that there would be sales for the 3 concert. This was a fundraiser for the organization. 4 Q And if they were just handing out flyers on this particular 5 occasion, how wouid that be solicitation? 6 A Well, if they're handing flyers out, I'm sure they're trying 7 to persuade people to come to the concert. But, again, with 8 this as a student group, what they're trying to do is just 9 let us know what they're doing on campus so that we can be 10 aware. 11 MS. MURRAY: Would you mark this, please? 12 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 15 MARKED) 13 Q Do you recognize this form? 14 A Yes, I do. It's the Request for Solicitation Approval. 15 Q What is the group that filled out the request? 16 A The Vincennes University Paralegal Association. 17 Q Is this your signature on the bottom? 18 A Yes, it is. 19 Q And what is the location you approved? 20 A The location was for VU campus. 21 Q And what was the reason that you allowed them to be on the | 22 VU campus rather than specifically the brick walkway? 23 A Again, the VUPA is a university club recognized by the 24 university. They were--they filled this out because they 25 were selling raffle tickets on a 50/50 as a fund raiser for CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [71] 89a 1 their organization, so they were able to be on campus. 2 Q Thank you. 3 MS. MURRAY: Take just a moment, please. 4 (OFF THE RECORD) 5 MR. MURRAY: Would you look at that, please, and mark 6 it? 7 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 16 MARKED) 8 Q Do you recognize this request? 9 A Yes, it's another Request for Solicitation Approval. 10 Q And who is the individual group who made the request? 11 A Evan Rainey through Godare Hall and intramural sports. 12 Q And what--is Godare Hall a building on university? 13 A I'm sorry. Yes, it's one of the residence halls on campus. 14 Q And what is the intramural sport program? 15 A It would also be another program that the university has 16 just intramural programs through our P.E. Department. 17 Q Thank you. 18 MS. MURRAY: Could you mark this, please? 19 (PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 17 MARKED) 20 Q Is this a solicitation request? 21A Yes, it is. ~ 22 Q What is the name of the individual and group who submitted 23 the request? 24 A The name is Jason Spore. Individual group is Jason Spore, 25 Brandon Buskirk, and Mahein Clothing. CROSSROADS COURT REPORTING [72] 1 Q Is your signature on the bottom of the page? 2 A Yes, it is. 3 Q What is the location that you approved? 90a 4 A The sidewalk, and it says, "Student union only." 5 Q And were you saying--is this inside--are you saying the 6 sidewalk in front of the student union, or did you give him 7 permission to be inside the student union? 8 A It looks to me here it's the sidewalk in front of the 9 student union only, the brick walkway. 10 Q Okay. Now, in the sales policy, which was Exhibit 1, it 11 states that commercial activity can occur within the student 12 union? 13 A Yes. 14 Q So did you consider--again, did you consider this commercial 15 activity within the student union, or do you believe it was 16 a sidewalk where he engaged in speech? 17 A Actually, I think with this one we would have allowed him 18 either spot; but it was the opening week of school, and they 19 felt they would be more visible out front. 20 Q And do you know what Mahem Clothing is or any of the two 21 other men listed? 22 A I don't. I'm sorry. 23 Q Do you know if they're a student group? 24 A I would say that they're not. 25 Q Would you look at this request form, please? CROSSROADS CO [Text truncated at 120,000 characters. The full text is on the page linked above.] --- Source: Frix Law Library, https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40386008_0569%3A2. Public record. Not legal advice.