# Supplemental Brief — Thornberry v. United States > Briefs, arguments, decisions, and more. URL: https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40385007_2043%3A2 ## Record - **Collection:** Supreme Court brief - **Document type:** Supplemental Brief - **Published:** January 1, 1981 - **Citation:** 454 U.S. 820 ## Text Office-Supreme Court, U.S. FILED () 1981 NO. 80-1822 m3 ALEX.’ ___ — ——— -.-_.| In The SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES OCTOBER TERM, 1980 HAROLD ANCLE THORNBERRY, Petitioner, VS. UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Respondent. SUPPLEMENTAL PETITION FOR WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE SIXTH CIRCUIT W. ROBERT LOTZ, JR. 211 East Fourth Street P.O. Box 1078 Covington, Kentucky 41012 1 (606) 261-5777 Attorney for Petitioner I a ETI COURT INDEX PRESS, INC. — 215 E. Ninth Street, Cincinnati, Ohio 45202 — (513) 241-1450 SUPPLEMENTAL QUESTION PRESENTED FOR REVIEW ARE A DEFENDANT'S FIFTH AMENDMENT OR SIXTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS VIOLATED UNDER CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE FEDERAL AGENTS, USING AN UNDERCOVER EMPLOYEE, SURREPTI- TIOUSLY INITIATE AND RECORD A NUMBER OF NON-CUSTODIAL INTERROGATIONS AFTER THAT DEFENDANT, HAVING BEEN GIVEN MIRANDA WARNINGS, HAS FORCED TERMINA- TION OF ALL CUSTODIAL QUESTIONING BY CLEARLY INDICATING A DESIRE NOT TO BE INTERROGATED? Page SUPPLEMENTAL QUESTIONS PRESENTED EE sie es oes se vce these ccss see aay SUPPLEMENTAL TABLE OF CASES AND en IV SUPPLEMENTAL CONSTITUTIONAL as kb eas sev been ee l SUPPLEMENT TO STATEMENT OF THE ee LOSS ROG SAA ae 2 REASON FOR GRANTING CERTIORARI ON SUPPLEMENTAL QUESTION PRESENTED ... 3 a tab kek was thave cen kebses. 3 SUPPLEMENTAL APPENDIX __.......... Tore IV. SUPPLEMENTAL TABLE OF CASES AND AUTHORITIES Page Brewer v. Williams, 430 U.S. 387 (1977) .......... 5, 6 Edwards v. Arizona, —— US. —-, 49 U.S.L.W. 4496 (No. 79-5269) (decided May 18, 1981) .... 3-8 Escobedo v. Illinois, 378 U.S. 478 (1964) .......... 7-9 Massiah v. United States, 377 U.S. 201 (1964) .. 3, 5, 8 Michigan v. Mosley, 423 U.S. 96 (1975) .. ....... 3-7 Michigan v. Tucker, 417 U.S. 433 (1974) ........ 8 Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436 (1966) ...... 3-5, 7,9 Rhode Island v. Innis, 446 U.S. 291 (1980) ........ 5 Kamisar, “Brewer v. Williams, Massiah, and Miranda: What Is Interrogation? When Does It Matter?” 67 Geo. L.J. 1-101 (1978) ............. 6 In The SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES OCTOBER TERM, 1980 NO. 80-1822 HAROLD ANCLE THORNBERRY, Petitioner, vs. UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Respondent. SUPPLEMENTAL PETITION FOR WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE SIXTH CIRCUIT SUPPLEMENTAL CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISIONS Amendment Five: “No person . . . shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law...” Amendment Six: “In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right . . . to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.” 2 SUPPLEMENTAL STATEMENT OF THE CASE On March 24, 1978, the Federal Bureau of Investigation outfitted James Thomas, a paid “consultant,” with a body recorder and transmitter. Thomas, as part of an FBI investigation, had ingratiated himself with the Defendant Thornberry and had become Thornberry’s regular gin rummy partner. As part of the investigation, Thomas was instructed by the FBI to record his conversations with Thornberry. On March 30, 1978, the FBI, assisted by Covington Police, in furtherance of the same investigation, executed a search warrant on the building at 616 Washington Street, Covington, Kentucky. Before the search, Agents Behan and Conley went to Thornberry’s apartment and asked him for a key to the Washington Street building. Thomas, who was already present in Thornberry’s apartment, re- corded this conversation. In the search, the FBI seized business records and other material alleged to be evidence of gambling. After the search, the same two Agents brought the return on the search warrant to Thornberry who was still with Thomas. This conversation between the FBI Agents and Thornberry was also recorded by Thomas. The Agents told Thornberry they wanted to question him and advised him of his Miranda rights by presenting him with a printed form listing all of those rights. (App. 2-3) Thornberry clearly indicated he did not want to talk with the agents. (App. 3) The two Agents stopped their questioning, served Thornberry with a Subpoena to appear before a Federal Grand Jury, and left him with Thomas. Thomas stayed behind with Thornberry and recorded conversations on that day, and on the subsequent day, in which Thorn- berry made incriminating statements. (App. 1-15) Over 3 objections grounded in the fifth and sixth amendments, the content of these conversations was admitted against Thorn- berry at trial. REASONS FOR GRANTING CERTIORARI ON SUPPLEMENTAL QUESTION PRESENTED FOR REVIEW THE DECISION OF THE COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE SIXTH CIRCUIT UPHOLDING AD.- MISSION OF RECORDED CONVERSATIONS AGAINST PETITIONER IS IN CONFLICT ‘WITH THE DECISIONS OF THIS COURT IN EDWARDS v. ARIZONA, —— U.S. —, 49 U.S.L.W. 4496 (NO. 79-5296) (DECIDED MAY 18, 1981); MICHIGAN v. MOSLEY, 423 U.S. 96 (1975); MIRANDA v. ARIZONA, 384 U.S. 436 (1966); ESCOBEDO v. ILLINOIS, 378 U.S. 478 (1964); MASSIAH v. UNITED STATES, 377 U.S. 201 (1964). A. Petitioner’s Fifth Amendment Rights, As Devel- oped In Edwards v. Arizona, Michigan v. Mosley, and Miranda v. Arizona, Were Violated. Thornberry was informed of his fifth amendment rights by FBI agents and he invoked those rights by refusing to speak with the agents. (App. 3) Ostensibly, the FBI honored Thornberry’s invocation of his rights when the two persons who had identified themselves as FBI agents left Thornberry’s apartment; however, a paid informer/ consultant, James Thomas, remained behind, wired for sound, and engaged Thornberry in conversation in in- criminating areas. (App. 3-15) No attempt was made to ascertain whether Thornberry waived the Miranda rights 4 he had invoked just moments before. In fact, Thomas remained behind with Thornberry in order to circumvent Thornberry’s assertion of his Miranda rights. Once Miranda warnings have been given to an accused citizen, the interrogators must “scrupulously honor’ the invocation of those rights. Michigan v. Mosley, 423 U.S. 96 (1975). If .. . he [the accused citizen] indicates in any manner and at any stage of the process that he wishes to con- sult with an attorney before speaking, there can be no questioning. Likewise, if the individual is alone and indicates in any manner that he does not wish to be interrogated, the police may not question him. Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436, 444-45 (1966) . In Mosley, there was a delay of two hours between the accused citizen’s assertion of his rights prior to an interro- gation in reference to one crime and commencement of another interrogation by another officer in reference to another crime. The Mosley Court held that the prohibi- tion of questioning after the assertion of the right to remain silent did not extend for an indefinite period and that questioning could resume sc long as the assertion of the right is “scrupulously honored.” Mosley, 423 U.S. at 103- 04. In Mosley, each interrogator read Miranda warnings prior to interrogation and there was a two hour gap be- tween interrogations. In the case at hand, the interroga- tion of Thornberry by Thomas began as soon as the other FBI agents left the room and continued over into the next day. In the recent case of Edwards v. Arizona, this Court held that the Miranda Court meant what it said — if an accused indicates a desire to remain silent, then interrogation must cease, and if an accused indicates a desire for counsel prior 5 to interrogation, then counsel must be provided before interrogation may continue. Edwards v. Arizona, —— US. ——, 49 U.S.L.W. 4496, 4497-98 (No. 79-5269) (decided May 18, 1981). The Edwards Court grounded its decision on the fifth amendment, specifically refusing to deal with a sixth amendment right to counsel issue posed by the Peti- tioner in that case. Edwards, —— U.S. at ——, 49 U.S.L.W. at 4497, n. 7. Fifth amendment rights include the right to refuse to incriminate oneself and the right to have counsel present at interrogation. The Edwards Court also required that, once the fifth amendment right to counsel was invoked, there must be proof that the accused voluntarily, knowingly, and intelli- gently waived that right. Edwards, -— U.S. at ——, 49 U.S.L.W. at 4497. Proof that the accused responded to further custodial interrogation is insufficient proof of waiver. Once informed of his fifth amendment rights as an accused, Thornberry refused to speak with the FBI agents. After the agents left the premises in honor of Thornberry’s assertion of his rights, the FBI’s paid informer interrogated Thornberry by engaging him in conversation in incrimin- ating areas. Regardless of its form, interrogation is the deliberate elicitation of incriminating information and statement from an accused. Brewer v. Williams, 430 U.S. 387, 400 (1977); Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436, 461 (1966); Massiah v. United States, 377 U.S. 201, 206 (1964). “The term ‘interrogation’ under Miranda refers not only to express questioning, but also to any words or actions on the part ef the police (other than those normally attendant to arrest and custody) that the police should know are reasonably likely to elicit an incriminating re- sponse from the suspect.” Rhode Island v. Innis, 446 U.S. 291, 301 (1980) (footnotes omitted). Whether 6 Thomas’ deliberate elicitation of incriminating statements was as a result of a classic question and answer interroga- tion or was a surreptitious elicitation is “constitutionally irrelevant.” Brewer, 430 U.S. at 400-402. See, Kamisar, “Brewer v. Williams, Massiah, and Miranda: What is In- terrogation? When Does It Matter?” 67 Geo. L.J. 1-101 (1978). It \.as for the deliberate purpose of eliciting and recording incriminating information that Thomas ingrati- ated himself with Thornberry and remained with Thorn- berry after the FBI agents left the room. Thornberry invoked his rights under the fifth amend- ment and that invocation was circumvented by surreptitious interrogation by a paid FBI informant. In contravention of Michigan v. Mosley, the FBI did not scrupulously honor Thornberry’s invocation of his rights. The FBI paid the informant for the purpose of defying the invocation of those rights. Over eighteen hours of recorded conversa- tion, and untold time spent by the informant in endearing himself to Thornberry, culminated in the conversations that were recorded after Thornberry invoked his fifth amendment rights and that contained statements by Thorn- berry incriminating himself. No proof was presented at trial that Thornberry knowingly, intelligently, or volun- tarily waived the rights he invoked; rather, the recorded conversations show that there was no gap between Thorn- berry’s refusal to speak to the FBI and his conversations with Thomas. Among the fifth amendment rights invoked by Thorn- berry’s refusal to speak with the FBI is the right to have counsel present at interrogation. In contravention of Ed- wards v. Arizona, no counsel was present at Thornberry’s continued interrogation and Thornberry did not waive the right to have counsel present. Simple response to further interrogation by Thornberry, even though voluntary, did 7 not constitute a knowing and intelligent waiver of the rights he had previously invoked. In this case, the FBI has been allowed, by the holdings of the lower court, to circumvent the holdings of this Court in Edwards vy. Arizona, Michigan v. Mosley, and Miranda v. Arizona. By remaining with the accused after he invoked his fifth amendment rights, the FBI was not merely investigating a case, but was deliberately eliciting incriminating information from the accused. B. Petitioner’s Sixth Amendment Rights, Which Were Developed In Massiah v. United States And Escobedo v. Illinois, Were Violated. By the time the FBI Agents presented Thornberry with the printed Miranda warnings, they had focused on him as an accused in their investigation of criminal activity. The FBI had placed a paid informant in the presence of Thornberry who was wired for sound to record conversa- tions in which he elicited incriminating information from Thornberry. The FBI had obtained the key to the build- ing at 616 Washington Avenue from Thornberry and had already searched the building. The FBI presented the return on the Warrant to Thornberry, even though the building was rented to other persons and they were occupy- ing the building. After Thornberry refused to speak with the Agents on the issues of this case, they presented him with a Subpoena to appear before a Federal Grand Jury investigating criminal activity in the area. In Escobedo vy. Illinois, 378 U.S. 478 (1964), the Su- preme Court held that when an investigation of criminal activity had focused on one person, when the investigation had shifted from general to accusatory against one person, then refusal to honor that person’s request to tremain silent or for an attorney was a violation of the sixth amendment 8 right to counsel and the fifth amendment right to remain silent. Escobedo asked for his attorney after being ques- tioned by police. Even though his attorney was in the police station house, the police refused to comply with that request. As noted by Justice Rehnquist, notwithstanding the Miranda decision, Escobedo’s holding is still good law, al- though it should not be broadly construed. Michigan v. Tucker, 417 U.S. 433, 438 (1974). The Escobedo Court built on the earlier holding in Massiah v. United States that, under the sixth amendment, an accused is entitled to counsel when adversary criminal proceedings have begun. Massiah, 377 U.S. 201 (1964). Escobedo held that when the investigation of a crime had focused on one individual, that person “had, for all practical purposes, already been charged . . .”” Escobedo, 378 U.S. at 486. In Massiah, the Court suppressed statements of an ac- cused that were obtained by a friend of the accused who was working for the Government and wore a hidden micro- phone. The accused in Massiah had been indicted and had obtained counsel at the time his friend elicited and recorded the incriminating statements. The Escobedo decision ex- tended the protection established by Massiah, against self- incrimination and the right to counsel, to times prior to the formal institution of charges. In the recent case of Edwards v. Arizona, this Court held that once fifth amendment rights had been asserted, they could be validly waived only on proof that there was a voluntary relinquishment of each right known to the accused. Edwards v. Arizona, —— U.S. ——, 49 U.S.L.W. 4496 (No. 78-5269) (Decided May 18, 1981). The Court held that there were special protections for the accused in the determination of the waiver of an asserted right to counsel. Edwards, —~ U.S. ——, 49 U.S.L.W. at 4497. 9 In the case at hand, Thornberry was informed of his rights under the Miranda decision, which includes the right to counsel, and refused to speak with the FBI. Since the investigation had so obviously focused on Thornberry as an accused, under the Escobedo decision, he also invoked sixth amendment rights to counsel by refusing to speak when informed of, amowg other rights, his right to counsel. Without any proof that Thornberry waived his right to counsel, he was interrogated by the paid informant in violation of his right to counsel. Respectfully submitted, W. ROBERT LOTZ, JR. 211 East Fourth Street P.O. Box 1078 Covington, Kentucky 41012 1 (606) 261-5777 Attorney for Petitioner APPENDIX A EXCERPTS FROM RECORDED CONVERSATIONS Conversation Number: 5 Participants: Harold Thornberry Special Agent Vincent W. Behan Special Agent Patrick J. Conley James Thomas Date: March 30, 1978 Thomas: Yeah, I'll tell you. Well, I, I don’t understand the Feds being in on this gambling, this state. I thought under the law Thornberry: You got to close down, you got to be closed. You can’t operate for thirty straight days. You can’t take in so much money in one given night. You can’t have so many people working for you. This is where they get you Thomas: And he is, oh, he’s been doin that Thornberry: I don’t know Thomas: I don’t either Thornberry: I don’t know. But I’m just sayin what you can’t do Thomas: Well I don’t know either. Don’t wanna know. Okay. Well, I just Thornberry: I really don’t know Thomas: I, I can’t understand the Thornberry: I have never, I’ve never went up there (Someone else comes in — background talk to them) Thornberry: Yeah, come on in Behan: Got a few minutes la 2a Thornberry: Yeah, come on in Behan: Alright Conley: Was just here Thornberry: Don’t knock the door down please Behan: You got somebody to take care of that door up there Thornberry: A, I called and his wife said as soon as he comes in she'd call. So I'll try to get in touch with him. If not I'll get up here first thing tomorrow morning. ‘cause I got a piece of plywood lying right up there that I can take up there and block up the door. Here, use this as a Conley: You got someone up there Thornberry: Up there? Conley: Yeah Thomas: Charlie Thornberry: That’s the ice man Thomas: That's Charlie Thornberry: That's the ice (unintelligible) Thomas: That’s Charlie Behan: Okay, that’s the inventory Thornberry: Okay Behan: If you will put that on the back of the, uh, search warrant Thornberry: Okay Behan: And give her the whole package Thornberry: Alright, alright Thomas: That’s Charlie Behan: Okay, I would, uh, I do want to ask you a few questions about it Harold Thornberry: Okay, alright Thomas: You want me to leave? Thornberry: No, I don’t care. If these guys want you to Behan: Before I do, I just want to advise you of your rights $a Thornberry: Yeah, okay Behan: Okay? Thornberry: Alright Behan: Read it over Thornberry: Alright. Why don’t I just don’t say nothin then I won't have to worry about nothing Behan: Ha, ha, ha, it’s your choice Thornberry: Maybe that would be the best way to be. Behan: Okay, I, would you care to sign that. It’s just telling you that we advised, that’s all it is Thornberry: Okay, alright, okay Behan: Okay, now do you want to talk about Thornberry: No Behan: The place at all. No, okay Thornberry: What the hell did I do with that, that thing you gave me. Oh, here it is, this is what I was looking for, staple this all together. Yeah, I'll see her, no doubt tomorrow or the next day because the rent’s due Behan: Okay Harold, this is a subpoena to appear before a Grand Jury in Lexington on the sixth Thornberry: Uh huh Behan: Where they will ask the questions Thornberry: Okay, alright Behan: Okay Thornberry: Alright, okey doke, see what the hell day is the sixth Conley: Thursday, I think Thornberry: Monday Conley: Monday Thornberry: Yeah, in fact it’s Monday a week I guess it is, yeah. No hell, I’m lookin at March ain't I. We wanna look at April. A, the sixth is Thursday. Right Behan: Right Thornberry: Uh huh, yeah 4a Behan: Okay Thornberry: Okay Behan: Alright Thornberry: Okay, alright Conley: Good night Harold Thornberry: Uh huh, I'll get that taken care of tonight or tomorrow morning Behan: Alright Thornberry: Okay, I own the property they asked me who rents it and this kind of stuff that what they (unin- telligible) . Thomas: Three, six, eleven Thornberry: Oh hell (unintelligible) Thomas: Motherfuck that shit, buddy I should have stayed in Metamora Conversation Number: 6 Participants: Harold Thornberry Harry Seiter James Thomas Date: March 30, 1978 Thomas: Who is this guy? Thornberry: Jim, I don’t know Thomas: Oh Thornberry: Fuck, I don’t know who these guys are. I don’t know nothing about them, they're FBI Agents, that’s all I know about ’em. I don’t know who they are and I don’t give a fuck who they are (Knock on door) Seiter: Hello Thomas: Hello Harry, by God, how are you? 5a Seiter: Hey I’m comin up that Goddamn place Thomas: I'll buy, I'll buy you chicken Seiter: I’m tearin that fuckin place apart Thomas: Don’t do anything like that Seiter: I’m gettin all drunk and I’m raisin hell Thomas: Damn Seiter: What did I tell you? Thornberry: What's that Seiter: You just had visitors didn’t you Thornberry: Well sure. Yeah, yeah, they raided How- ard’s place Seiter: I know they did. What did they find? Thornberry: I don’t know Seiter: Did they get your game? Thornberry: No, here’s what they found. I’m _ sub- poenaed for the seventh of next month Seiter: The seventh Thornberry: Yeah, it’s on Thursday. Here’s what they found Seiter: The seventh ain’t on no Thursday. The seventh is on a Friday Thornberry: Or it’s the sixth. The sixth is on a Thurs- day Seiter: Bowman got a subpoena to go the seventh Thornberry: That’s what they found up there Seiter: Playing cards Thomas: It’s your throwaway, Thornberry. A diamond run, a diamond run Thornberry: They kicked the back door in and asked me if I can get it fixed. I told them I didn’t kick it in Seiter: That's what I would have told them. Said you get it fixed Thomas: Go ahead, I can’t stop you. I can’t stop you, Gin 6a Thornberry: Twenty-nine Seiter: They didn’t get much did they Thornberry: Address book they said. Telephone ad- dress book Seiter: Is this your subpoena? Thornberry: Uh Seiter: Oh that’s the search warrant Thornberry: Yeah they wanted to talk to me and I said, I said I don’t wanna talk Thomas: He just flat told them no Seiter: I don’t blame him Thornberry: I said I just don’t want to talk to you Thomas: Oh, by the way, congratulations. On the Colonel Seiter: They're trying to take it from, all the time Thomas: Oh bullhockey, they can’t do that. That's as legal as the day is long Thornberry: They said something about Howard renting off me. I said Howard don’t rent off me Seiter: I wouldn’t have even told them that. You have to contact my attorney first before you speak to me, men Thomas: How is Abe? Have you seen him? Seiter: He’s alright. He don’t do too good Thornberry: Nine — Thomas: Oh, son of a Seiter; You know, I seen them two fuckers getting in their car, they never said one word to me Thornberry: They came down here, I was next door and they asked me for a key. They said, uh, we want to go up and look in Donnelly’s place Thomas: Thirty-one, forty, fifty Thornberry: I said, uh, Donnelly’s place? They said yeah. I said nobody by the name of Donnelly rents 7a off me. They said 616 Washington, I said you mean Mary Ann Noel. I said I don’t have a key for it. So then we went up to Pat (unintelligible) go up and eat at the, the German joint and there they were. Then they called me over and said you sure you don't have the key for it and I said no, they said well how you want us to go in, through the window or through the door. I said it makes no difference to me how you go through. Ha, ha, ha Seiter: That’s what I'd of told them Thornberry: I don’t give a fuck Thomas: Fifty points there. You didn't even give me a damn chance that time Seiter: Jim, you're trying to look like one of them fuckin hillbillies up there in Indiana, ain't you? Thomas: | Oh, I got married, you know that Harry? Seiter: No Thomas: And a, a my wife, I don't know what's got into her, she just swears up and down I should wear a beard. So I’m doin it for her because she's got the money Seiter: Don’t hurt the image none does it? Thomas: No, it helps the image. But I, she, she's the one that carries the money and since she carries the money I Thornberry: You listen to her Thomas: [I listen Seiter: You're hidin a little for old Jim though ain't cha Thomas: Huh? Seiter: You're hiding a little for old Jim ain't you Thomas: About the only chance I get every dime I get he takes it from me. He don't never give me a chance Seiter: Well lose her money in the Goddamn game. Say Honey I lost your money 8a ‘Lhornberry: Yeah that right, that’s right, tell him you're playin for her Thomas: I did but I lost Seiter; Boy Jim I saw them pricks out there, they didn’t * say nothin about that up there, I just played dumb and went on Thornberry: Yeah they had about twelve or fifteen of them up there Seiter; Was there that many? Thornberry: Yeah Seiter; Well they was really gonna do a big thing wasn't they Thornberry: Yeah Seiter:; Well that tells you they didn't have an inside man Thornberry: Huh? Seiter: ‘That tells me they didn’t have an inside man, if they had that many people to take it off and nobody in there Thornberry: ‘That place was bare. They weren't gonna find anything. Really unloading aren't you? Thomas: Oh don't you you think it’s about time Thornberry: Yes, it might be too late Thomas: Could be. Deal the card Thornberry: Can't help it Thomas: I can’t, uh Thornberry: Hey (unintelligible) big Al Meyers is up there and a they said, a well which door should we knock down, which is the easiest door. Well I know that side door, that door is solid. That fuckin thing. I believe this will be the easiest. Just, uh, you know, put your shoulder up and hit that motherfucker Thomas: He bounced back about four foot Thornberry: ‘That motherfucker. He bounced back, he said woooo. I said try it again. He hit that son of a bitch again and it didn’t budge 9a Seiter; So he's in on this fuckin act with them cocksuckers Thornberry; Oh, I know he is, and he says oooh, so then he goes back in the back door was an old door, the glass, the glass was out so he just kicked it and he broke it right in half. You know. I had to laugh how Al bounched off that door twice Thomas; That tickled him Seiter; (Unintelligible) Thomas: Did it upset him? Seiter: (Unintelligible) in that department (unintelligi- ble) and everything Thornberry: Oh yeah, Gin (unintelligible) Thomas: Son of a bitch, son of a bitch. Oh, I'm afraid to throw you a six Thornberry: Six Thomas; Fourteen Thornberry: Twenty-five, thirty, thirty-nine Thomas: Thirty-nine Thornberry: One twenty-four Thomas: A, a new leader in the pack Seiter: I'm gonna get out of here I'm gonna let you guys play your fuckin cards Thornberry: Okay Hacry Thomas: Harry, good to see you again Seiter: Sometime Thomas: Hey listen, hey listen Thornberry: Pat says stop up and get those beer cans for you Seiter:; Huh? Thornberry: Pat says to stop up and get those beer cans for you Thomas: Hey, come on up and bring the family and I'll buy you Seiter: You got a card with you? 10a Thomas: No, I don’t have no card, I can’t, you know up there Seiter: Harold knows how to get there and everything don't he Thornberry: Oh yeah Thomas: Yeah, it's a nice place. I bought me a home and I Seiter; You there all day? Thomas: Everyday. Everyday. I just get away a couple of days a week to come down here Seiter; About two weeks, you always there on a Sunday? Thomas: Always there on a Sunday Seiter: In about two wecks I'll come by Thomas: Come on up and I'll give you the grand tour Seiter: You can show me the town Thomas: I'll show you the town. Thank you Harry Thornberry: Good seein you again Thomas: Alright, it’s good seeing you Thornberry: So long Harry. Okay baby Thomas: I wonder how come he didn't know anything about it until just right out there. Huh? Thornberry: Shit. He played the dummy with Schwartz Thomas: Well that’s good, he should, he should Conversation Number: 7 Participants: Harold Thornberry John Wardia James Thomas Date: March 30, 1978 Wardia: Hi Jim Thomas: Hi John, how are you? Wardia: Did you bring all your friends with you God- dammit lla Thomas: I ain’t got no friends Wardia: I seen all them guys come in (unintelligible) Thornberry: That was the FBI, they raided Howard. Yeah they came down and wanted me to open up the door for them and I said I don’t have a key (unin- telligible) Conversation Number: 8 Participants: Harold Thornberry James Thomas Date: March 31, 1978 Thornberry: I know, but let me explain something Thomas: Okay, all right Thornberry: There’s only two (unintelligible) just two individuals. I’m not worried about these individuals. In fact it was at different times so if they would cop it would be my word against theirs. Don’t make any difference, there’s no proof Thomas: It takes one to indict, one to indict and two to convict, now Harris told me that, I remember that Thornberry: All right now, we know that, I’m not wor- ried about that. Now, as far as the guys (unintelligi- ble) bagman, that don’t mean nothin either, cause they could come back in here or come down there and find something just laying on the desk. That don’t make any difference. There’s nothing to that, see? Now as far as the joint up there, they can’t convict me on running a gambling joint cause I had it leased out to Mary Ann Noel Thomas: Yeah, I know that. You told me that last week Thornberry: And she gave me the rent and paid me by check. She has her cancelled checks to prove it. All 12a right. I have my rent receipts to prove it. I’m not worried about it, it’s horseshit. They might try to prove that the commissioners are getting money for certain things but they have to prove it, see I’m not worried, but it might be embarrassing if one or two would cop out Thomas: Well Bowman's the only thing I’m worried about, that Thornberry: He wouldn't say shit Thomas: Well he said right there in the damn paper Thornberry: He didn’t say what he was goin to say Thomas: (Unintelligible) Thornberry: Why would he hurt himself? Thomas: See, if you hadn't, if you hadn’t said the other Goddamn night about Bowman being, about what happened when Bowman down here (unintelligible) I wouldn’t thought nothin, but when I seen that, I got Thornberry: You don’t know what you're thinking, you're just like a ruckin square reading a newspaper Thomas: Well Thornberry: Why would he, why would he cop out and convict himself? Thomas: Yeah, I guess you're right, well, what if they give him immunity Thornberry: Well so what, it’s his word against mine. See. Bullshit man Thomas: You know, I just (unintelligible) Thornberry: I don’t worry (unintelligible) Thomas: I know that, I know that, I, I, know that Thornberry: Just like that cop back there that wanted me to give him a pay off, Meyers, all I said was, no soap no soap. In the first place, no money changed hands and they can’t get you for that Thomas: Yeah l3a Thornberry: Just like the time they found my tape re- corder where I had it on somebody supposed to get so much money Thomas: I remember that Thornberry: And they gave it to the FBI and the FBI said we can’t do nothin, nothin happened. That was talk only Thomas: (Unintelligible) Thornberry: Yeah, they told (unintelligible) me it has to happen and they have to have more than one people there, person there. They've fucked, so fuckin many humans its pitiful and they said they were going to get me because I used federal funds to buy houses with, why I never used federal funds in my life. They just startin this shit, see, trying to get people scared, that don’t scare me Thomas: No, they don’t scare, that’s not what I’m wor- ried about, it’s whether they scare somebody that Thornberry: (Unintelligible) Female: What are you doin Harold? Thornberry: Nothin, that’s it, nothin --- Source: Frix Law Library, https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40385007_2043%3A2. Public record. Not legal advice.