# Appendix — United States v. 564.54 Acres of Monroe and Pike County Land > Briefs, arguments, decisions, and more. URL: https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40385005_1758%3A2 ## Record - **Collection:** Supreme Court brief - **Document type:** Appendix - **Published:** January 1, 1979 - **Citation:** 441 U.S. 506 ## Text Supreme Court, U.&% “) 7 FILED APPENDIX JAN 25 1979 MICHAEL RODAK, JR., CLERK Iu the Supreme Court of the Huited States OCTOBER TERM, 1978 No. 78-488 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Petitioner — 564.54 ACRES OF LAND, MORE OR LESS, SITUATED IN MONROE AND PIKE COUNTIES, COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA, AND BENEDICT F. PASTORINI, ET AL., SOUTHEASTERN PENNSYLVANIA SYNOD OF THE LUTH- ERAN CHURCH IN AMERICA ON WRIT OF CERTIORARI! TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE THIRD CIRCUIT PETITION FOR WRIT OF CERTIORARI FILED SEPTEMBER 21, 1978 CERTIORARI GRANTED NOVEMBER 27, 1978 4 i A ett a “he, > *o, ae ee Se See LO 8 asia 82 2288 &ae “| N NNR RAR FZ Se ou Be 00°00T‘LES TVLOL HOVGE $ 00°002‘ST 8] Yoweg youg 00°0F9‘ST HOVad HOVa 00°026‘9F SHOVE $ YOU TVLOL 00°000‘T S[ByUeprouy 00°090‘T oo'oss li. 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Storage Tank Complete 50,000 Gal. Storage Tank Complete TOTAL PRICE TOTAL $ 10.00 $ 10,000.00 10.00 35,500.00 6.70 76,380.00 6.70 38,860.00 5.30 1,590.00 4.00 4,800.00 4.00 32,000.00 640.00 3,200.00 300.00 2,700.00 140.00 1,260.00 60.00 1,440.00 4,725.00 14,175.00 14,000.00 42,000.00 65,000.00 65,000.00 75,000.00 150,000.00 $478,905.00 69 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA Civil No. 70-240 [Filed Apr. 24, 1974] UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, PLAINTIFF es 564.54 ACRES OF LAND, MORE OR LESS SITUATE IN MON- ROE AND PIKE COUNTIES, COMMONWEALTH OF PENN- SYLVANIA, AND BENEDICT F. PASTORINI, ET AL., DEFENDANTS - AFFIDAVIT OF REV. ROY E. GULLIFORD COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA ) ) COUNTY OF PHILADELPHIA ) The Reverend Roy E. Gulliford, being duly sworn ac- cording to law, deposes and says as follows: 1, Identity of Affiant—Since March 1, 1970, I have been Executive Director of Camps Miller, Hagan and Minister- ium which until June 15, 1970, were owned by the South- eastern Pennsylvania Synod of the Lutheran Church in America, and operated on its behalf. In my capacity as Executive Director, I have had complete responsibility for, and oversight of, the operation of these camps, in- - cluding their programs and policies, as well as all bud- getary, accounting and financial matters. Site Location—These three camps were, and Camps Hagan and Ministerium still are, located directly upon the Delaware River in Monroe County, Pennsylvania at 70 Shawnee on the Delaware. For many decades the aquatic activities have been the core of their program. The river front was well equipped with landings and beaches for swimming and canoeing. Our equipment inventory in- cludes 25 canoes which are constantly and extensively used for trips for which the location is unusually suit- able, the Delaware being safely and easily navigable by canoe for at least 20 miles in each direction. It includes in addition 12 playaks and six rowboats actively used in the aquatic programs. The interior of the camps fronts on a paved public highway which makes the sites readily accessible with a minimum of driveway and public utility line construction inside the camp limits. 3. Condemnation and Lease Back—These three camps were condemned by the United States on June 15, 1970. The structures on Camp Miller were extensively van- dalized and promptly razed, rendering it of no further use as a camp after the 1970 season. .Following the con- demnation Camps Hagan and Ministerium were leased back to us by the United States of America at a rental of $15,600 per year, and the camp program has con- tinued at Camps Hagan and Ministerium without inter- ruption to the present date. 4 Church Affiliation and Financial Support—Prior to condemnation the camps were titled in the name of the Southeastern Pennsylvania Synod of the Lutheran Church in America. The camp program, however, is conducted in the name of the Eastern Pennsylvania Lutheran Camp Corporation, a Pennsylvania nonprofit corporation, the board of directors of which is appointed by the presi- dent of the Southeastern Pennsylvania Synod of the Lutheran Church in America and the Northeastern Penn- sylvania Synod of the Lutheran Church in America on a joint basis. This corporation is the agency of both synods for the purpose of conducting the camping pro- gram and is financially supported by both. Direct synod financial support by appropriations for operating ex- penses in recent years has been: 71 1965 $13,746 1966 15,030 1967 16,026 1968 14,627 1970 14,450 1971 23,003 1972 28,228 1973 28,228 5. Camp Eligibility—For more than 40 years both Camps Miller and Hagan have served boys and girls from age 8 to age 16. There has never been any restriction on the basis of race, creed or color, nor is there any policy of giving priority in registration to any religious de- nomination. Registrations are accepted strictly on a first come first served basis. Camp Ministerium has for more than ten years been operated as a small group camp for boys and girls from age 9 to 17 with no restrictions as to race, creed or color, and no policy of giving priority to the members of any religious denomination. All ap- plicants are accepted on a first come first served basis and, in fact, diversity is essential to meaningful small group camping. 6. Special Need Campers—Determined effort has always been made to serve children with special needs, whether mental, psychological or financial. Among these children are the mentally retarded at White Haven State School, White Haven, Pennsylvania, the psychologically disturbed children at Silver Springs School, Plymouth Meeting, Pennsylvania, the poor boys sent to camp by the Tri- Square Masonic group, and the poor children who come to camp under our own Campership Program. In the case of White Haven, we have had in the 1973 season seven severely retarded children for whom the .School pays our regular rates, notwithstanding their care must be very individual and therefore very expen- sive to us. In the case of Silver Springs, we have had 20 dis- turbed children in the 1973 season. Again the School pays standard rates notwithstanding the special care required. 72 In the case of the Tri-Square Masonic program we have had the following utilization paid for at standard rates by that organization: 1969 43 boys 1970 38 boys 1971 65 boys 1972 55 boys , 1973 42 boys In our own Campership Program, we have had the following numbers in recent years, which represent about 10% of our total enrollment volume: 1970 92 underprivileged campers for 149 weeks 1971 106 underprivileged campers for 161 weeks 1972 115 underprivileged campers for 208 weeks 1973 161 underprivileged campers for 239 weeks These children are largely sent to us by child care agen- cies in eastern Pennsylvania, principally in Wilkes Barre, Scranton, Allentown, Bethlehem, Easton and Philadelphia. The cost of these children is met by a special fund raising effort which I conduct among in- dividuals, service clubs, Lutheran congregations and wherever I can interest people in helping children in this way. Additional funds are raised by the special efforts of the president of the Southeastern Pennsylvania Synod of the Lutheran Church in America. a Racial and Religious Distribution—We do not keep records showing separately white and non-white enroll- ments. My observation, however, is that during my ten- ure from 10 to 15% of our campers are non-white, and that about 5% of our counsellor staff is non-white. Re- ligious distribution figures have been maintained for Camps Miller and Hagan since 1965 and they show the following: Lutheran Non-Lutheran 1965 59% 41% 1966 60% 49% 1967 62% 38% 1968 64% 34% 1969 61% 39% 1970 . 48% 57% 1971 41% 59% 1972 45% 55% 73 As stated above, no racial or religious group is favored in the matter of admissions. The foregoing distribution results from the application of a first come first serve policy except that the special need groups to which I have referred are assured priority. 8. Fees Paid by Campers—The schedule of weekly fees prevailing over the last ten years is as follows: Lutheran Non-Lutheran 1963 $30 $32 1964 30 32 1965 32 34 1966 32 34 1967 36 38 1968 36 38 1969 45 47 1970 45 47 1971 45 55 1972 49 59 1973 49 59 It should be noted that when we receive contributions from their sponsors, all Campership children are ad- mitted at the lower rate regardless of church affiliation. The foregoing fees fall far short of meeting the expenses of operation. The following figures are illustrative and in connection with them it is to be noted that the ex- pense figures shown do not include anything for deprecia- tion or general administrative overhead: 1969—Fees and contributions in lieu of fees received $191,782.87 Operating expense 205,738.93 1970—Fees and contributions in lieu of fees received 151,942.84 Operating expense 175,521.21 1971—Fees and contributions in lieu of fees received 121,031.00 Operating expense 179,582.00 1972—Fees and contributions in lieu of fees received 122,611.00 Operating expense 177,545.00 74 9. Comparison with Camp William Penn—This camp is owned by the City of Philadelphia and is located in Mon- roe and Pike Counties, Pennsylvania, about nine miles north of Marshalls Creek. It is managed under the direction of Henry Windish, Administrative Assistant to the Recreation Commissioner of the City of Philadelphia. It is comparable to the combined Camps Hagan and Ministerium as presently operated. Some points of com- parison applicable in the current year are as follows: Length of season: William Penn 81% weeks Hagan and Ministerium 9 weeks Average campers per week : William Penn 320 Hagan and Ministerium 335 Operating budget per season: William Penn $129,000 Hagan and Ministerium 177,500 In connection with the foregoing cost and budget figures, it should be noted that Camp William Penn has some operating expenses taken care of outside of its budget. For example, all its laundry is done in Philadelphia pris- ons at no cost. All of its motor vehicles are supplied and maintained by the City at no cost. Mr. Windish’s salary is paid by the Philadelphia Department of Recreation as is his office overhead. There are some differences also in its program. William Penn has no canoes and no aquatic activities other than swimming on the lake on which it is located. Its counsellors also are on a different qualification and compensation scale. At Hagan and Ministerium all counsellors (except for five high school seniors) are high school graduates at least and are paid a minimum of $375 per season, whereas at William Penn, 41 of 90 counsellors have not finished high school and those who have not finished high school are paid $200 per season. 75 10, Government Assistance—Our camps are eligible for participation in the U.S. Department of Agriculture Spe- cial Milk Program which reimburses us at the rate of two cents per half pint of milk served persons at our camp under 21 years of age. This subsicy amounts to approximately $1,200 per year. A copy of an illustrative voucher form is attached as Exhibit A. We are also eligible for U.S. Department of Agricul- ture surplus food and through this program receive such provisions as peanut butter, rice, flour, oatmeal and the like. What we receive depends upon the quantities of the various surplus items available. They vary widely. The monetary value of commodities received in recent years is: 1971 $2,249.00 1972 1,935.00 1973 2,189.60 Eligibility for this program requires full compliance with Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 which, accord- ing to the agreement entered into between our camps and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania as administrator for the U.S. Department of Agriculture, requires that “No person in the United States shall, on the ground of race, color or national origin, be excluded from par- ticipation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subject to discrimination under any program or activity of re- cipient agency to which assistance is provided by the United States Department of Agriculture. Admission policies are understood and agreed by recipient agency to be a part of such programs and activities.” Our camps have never violated these conditions nor have they ever been challenged with having done so. A copy of the agreement and related materials is attached as Exhibit B. The real estate on which the camps operated has al- ways been exempt from township, county and school dis- trict real estate taxes because the camps are “institu- tions of purely public charity.” 76 11, Public Demand—There is a growing cail for the serv- ices which our camps render. For most of our regular sessions there are waiting lists which cannot be taken care of. Demand from specialized groups is also mount- ing. The White Haven State School desires that we operate a day camp for 30 to 40 retarded children. The Luzerne County Child Development Council requests us to accept 75 to 100 emotionally and physically handi- capped children in a day camp program. /s/ Roy E. Gulliford Roy E. 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The public use, more particularly described in the Complaint filed in the above-mentioned action, for which Tract No. 1500 was taken and condemned by the United States of America is one authorized by law and the said tract of land and the taking thereof is necessary for said public use. 2. This case is within the jurisdiction of the United States District Court for the Middle District of Pennsyl- vania, which has the power and authority to enter judg- ment. IT IS HEREBY ORDERED, ADJUDGED, and DE- CREED that judgment be entered in favor of: SOUTHEASTERN PENNSYLVANIA SYNOD OF LUTHERAN CAMPS OF AMERICA and against the United States of America in the sum of $250,000.00. The sum of $186,000.00 having been de- 84 posited into the Registry of the Court upon the filing herein of the Declaration of Taking there remains to be deposited into the Registry of the Court the sum of $64,000.00, together with interest thereon at the rate of six (6%) percent per annum from June 15, 1970, until date of deposit. All liens, claims, encumbrances, interests and demands of every nature whatsoever existing at the time of tak- ing are hereby transferred from the land to the fund and any and all awards of just compensation that may be made in this proceeding shall be payable and de- ductible from the said fund. It is further ORDERED AND DECREED that the said sums, or any part thereof, shall be disbursed to the defendants upon the entry of this judgment, the deposit in the Registry of this Court of any deficiency, and the presentation of a praecipe either from the persons to whom payment is made, or their counsel, authorizing the Clerk to satisfy this judgment in full. Jurisdiction is reserved to make and enter such fur- ther orders and decrees as may be necessary and proper. /s/ Michael H. Sheridan United States District Judge Certified from the record Date Nov. 5, 1975 Donald R. Berry Clerk For /s/ Richard M. Popovitch Deputy Clerk 85 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA Civil No. 70-240 Tract 2122—Synod [Filed Nov. 5, 1975] UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, PLAINTIFF v8. 564.54 ACRES OF LAND, MORE OR LESS, SITUATE IN MONROE AND PIKE COUNTIES, ET AL., DEFENDANTS JUDGMENT ON VERDICT AND NOW, to wit, this 5th day of November, 1975, ‘pursuant to the verdict of the jury returned on the 3rd day of October, 1975, and the jury having answered “no” to the Special Interrogatories filed on September 30, 1975, asking if the doctrine of substitute facilities ap- plies, and it appearing to the Court: 1. The public use, more particularly described in the Complaint filed in the above-mentioned action, for which Tract No. 2122 was taken and condemned by the United States of America is one authorized by law and the said tract of land and the taking thereof is necessary for said public use. 2. This case is within the jurisdiction of the United States District Court for the Middle District of Pennsyl- vania, which has the power and authority to enter judg- ment. IT IS HEREBY ORDERED, ADJUDGED, and DE- CREED that judgment be entered in favor of: SOUTHEASTERN PENNSYLVANIA SYNOD OF LUTHERAN CAMPS OF AMERICA and against the United States of America in the sum of $300,000.00. The sum of $210,000.00 having been de- posited into the Registry of the Court upon the filing herein of the Declaration of Taking there remains to be deposited into the Kegistry of the Court the sum of $90,000.00, together with interest thereon at the rate of six (6%) percent per annum from June 15, 1970, until date of deposit. All liens, claims, encumbrances, interests and demands of every nature whatsoever existing at the time of taking are hereby transferred from the land to the fund and any and all awards of just compensation that may be made in this proceeding shall be payable and deductible from the said fund. It is further ORDERED AND DECREED that the said sums, or any part thereof, shall be disbursed to the defendants upon the entry of this judgment, the deposit in the Registry of this Court of any deficiency, and the presentation of a praecipe either from the persons to whom payment is made, or their counsel, authorizing the Clerk to satisfy this judgment in full. Jurisdiction is reserved to make and enter such fur- ther orders and decrees as may be necessary and proper. /s/ Michael H. Sheridan United States District Judge Certified from the record Date Nov. 5, 1975 Donald R. Berry Clerk For /s/ Richard M. Popovitch Deputy Clerk 87 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA Civil No. 70-240 Tract 2182—Synod [Filed Nov. 5, 1975] UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, PLAINTIFF v8. 564.54 ACRES OF LAND, MORE OR LESS, SITUATE IN MONROE AND PIKE COUNTIES, ET AL., DEFENDANTS JUDGMENT ON VERDICT AND NOW, to wit, this 5th day of November, 1975, pursuant to the verdict of the jury returned on the 3rd day of October, 1975, and the jury having answered “no” to the Special Interrogatories filed on September 80, 1975, asking if the doctrine of substitute facilities applies, and it appearing to the Court: 1. The public use, more particularly described in the Complaint filed in the above-mentioned action, for which Tract No. 2132 was taken and condemned by the United. States of America is one authorized by law and the said tract of land and the taking thereof is necessary for said public use. 2. This case is within the jurisdiction of the United States District Court for the Middle District of Penn- sylvania, which has the power and authority to enter judgment. IT IS HEREBY ORDERED, ADJUDGED, and DE- CREED that judgment be entered in favor of: SOUTHEASTERN PENNSYLVANIA SYNOD OF LUTHERAN CAMPS OF AMERICA and against the United States of America in the sum of $190,000.00. The sum of $144,000.00 having been ae. «4. deposited into the Registry of the Court upon the filing herein of the Declaration of Taking there remains to be deposited into the Registry of the Court of the sum of $46,000.00, together with interest thereon at the rate of six (6%) percent per annum from June 15, 1970, until date of deposit. | All liens, claims, encumbrances, interests and demands of every nature whatsoever existing at the time of tak- ing are hereby transferred from the land to the fund and any and all awards of just compensation that may be made in this proceeding shall be payable and de- ductible from the said fund. It is further ORDERED AND DECREED that the said sums, or any part thereof, shall be disbursed to the defendants upon the entry of this judgment, the deposit in the Registry of this Court of any deficiency, and the presentation of a praecipe either from the persons to whom payment is made, or their counsel, authorizing the Clerk to satisfy this judgment in full. Jurisdiction is reserved to make and enter such fur- ther orders and decrees as may be necessary and proper. /s/ Michael H. Sheridan United States District Court Certified from the record Date Nov. 5, 1975 Donald R. Berry Clerk For /s/ Richard M. Popovitch Deputy Clerk 89 PORTIONS OF TRIAL TRANSCRIPT [23] two other matters at this time in Court. It won’t take very long. So if you don’t mind returning to the juryroom, we will send for you when we are finished. (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) (Whereupon, five Bear Creek Deeds were produced and marked for identification as Synod’s Exhibit Nos. 7, 7-A, 7-B, 7-C, 7-D, and 7-E, respectively.) (Whereupon, a copy of minutes taken in 1962 was produced and marked for identification as Synod’s Exhibit No. 8.) WILLIAM A. JANSON, JR., called as a witness, be- ing duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DITTMANN: Dr. Janson, where do you reside? A North Wales, Pennsylvania, right outside of Phila- delphia. Q And what is your profession? A Iam aclergyman. Q And how long have you been a clergyman? A Thirty years. Where, would you give us a little of your educa- tional background, past service? A Yes, sir. [24] I am a native of York, Pennsylvania, and went through the public school system there and went to - Susquehanna University in Selingsgrove, Pennsylvania; and to seminary in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. And then, I served rural parishes in Virginia for a while and I was an assistant pastor for a while in New York City. Then, I did some graduate work sandwiched in there and got a degree from Columbia University in Educa- tion, taught for a time in Ohio and then served two 90 parishes in Ohio and in 1961, I came to Philadelphia as an Editor for our Board of Parish Education; spent five years doing that and then took a parish in Lansdale, Pennsylvania, and from there, I became the president of the Synod. 7 Would you tell us what the function of the Synod is A Yes. In our tradition, we try to group congregations to- gether in @ geographical area. We call that grouping of congregations a synod. Now, Southeastern Pennsylvania, there are 182 Lu- thern congregations in the five-county area; Bucks County and Chester, Delaware, Montgomery and Phila- delphia County. And that is the Southeastern Pennsy]- vania Synod, and my function in that is to seek to pro- vide an opportunity for [25] these congregations to make impact in providing programs and institutions, oppor- tunities for us to act collectively, where an individual congregation would have difficulty in acting. Q How long have you held the office of president? ry 3 pee been a since 1968. ould you briefly describe the N in terms of its area? x ee A Yes, I believe the Northeastern Pennsylvania Synod encompasses twelve counties; mainly from Allentown Easton, Bethlehem, Reading, on the south, to the extreme north, Pennsylvania border and as far east as the Dela- ware and I am not sure where the western boundary of that Synod is, but it encompasses about twelve counties. Q What is the function of the Camp Corporation Lutheran Church ell, about fifty-some years ago, some oe in the Lutheran shart Salt that Pag Boy previde a unique opportunity for youn ‘ decided that this would pom’ cheat a Mesiged do x4 variety of things. First of all, I think that it would help them, a young person grow in his love of God and Country as he would spend some time in the out-of-doors. He would have a 91 good opportunity of learning about nature and would have a good opportunity to appreciate the land in which he lives, like going to bed when the crickets are chirpping and studying the [26] trees and the flowers and that kind of thing. So the Camp Corporation, in our tradi- tion, has been one that has carried a very important part of the program for growing boys and girls. I think that the Camp Corporation also is very im- portant because we have an opportunity for our young people to mix, from various sections of these two Synods. Boys and girls from the city relate to boys and girls from the country. Small-town children relate to others whom they meet and sometimes they form very lasting friendships. And they learn something about the way they relate to other boys and girls. The Camp Corporation also is quite concerned about the fact that children from the ghetto area and boys and girls from the rural areas have a chance to mix and become known. We also like to feel that we are working with children who have learning disabilities and some who have dif- ficulty in their homelife. So this is a kind of mix that the Camp Corporation attempts to administer so in that sense, it plans its programs and conducts its activities; so, it is really then a system of providing an educational, religious, charitable experience for boys and girls of Northeastern Pennsylvania. What are the names of the camps that were owned by [27] the Synod prior to the date of taking? A Camp Miller, Camp Hagan and Camp Minister- ium. Q And where were those camps located? A Along the Delaware, Shawnee on the Delaware area. Has the Northeastern Synod participated in the funding of the camp program. A Yes, sir, both synods have. I think the jury might appreciate the fact that prior to 1968, the Northeastern Pennsylvania Synod and the Southeastern Pennsylvania Synod were one, called the Eastern Pennsylvania Synod, and so prior to 1968, ob- ————— 92 viously, the Eastern Pennsylvania Synod supported the camping program. When we divided ourselves into two synods, then this became a function of both synods. So since 1968, both synods have supported the camping program. We do this collectively because it is economically feasible. It makes sense to do it together. Q What have been the financial results of the opera- tion of the camping program, by the church? A Well, yes, we have always had to subsidize it. It has never been a profit-making enterprise since I be- came president in 1968. The amount of money that both have put into the camps has risen from $13,000 to ap- proximately $30,000 this past camp season. Q Would you identify the Lutheran camps, the Camp * & * aa [31] MR. DITTMANN: Well, I assume it will be possible to have them brought down here although, well, work out something else, access to them. (Whereupon, the discussion at side bar was con- cluded. ) BY MR. DITTMANN: Q I show you an exhibit marked Synod’s Exhibit No. 8 and ask you what that is, Doctor. A This is a copy of the minutes that were taken, in 1962, authorizing the appointment of a committee to study the selection of campsites. Q Is that a true and correct excerpt from the minutes of that meeting? A Yes, sir. Q a you please read to the jury the excerpt? es. “The president explained that because the dam will be built at Tocks Island in the Delaware River above Shaw- nee, the three summer camps will be flooded and new sites will have to be obtained. ae his recommendation, it was resolved: 93 A. That the president be authorized in consultation with the Board of Christian Education to appoint a committee on the selection of camp sites. B. That the committee be composed of three repre- sentatives of the Board of Christian Education and two [32] representatives of the Executive Board. C. That the committee be authorized to consult with the Financial Committee of this Board in the prepara- tion of a plan to finance the purchase of the campsites. D. That the committee subject to concurring action by the Financial Committee and the approval of the Synod’s legal counsellor be authorized to take the neces- sary steps to protect its interest in any specified prop- erty, pending formal action by this Board and; E. That the Board of Christian Education be au- thorized to spend up to $10,000 of its funds in develop- ing surveys and plot plans to guide the committee in its choice of sites.” Q Now, Dr. Janson, do you know whether or not a campsite was subsequently selected and acquired by the Synod? Yes, I do. And do you know when that occurred? Somewhere in the year 1963, 1964. And do you know the location of the campsite? We refer to it as Bear Creek Camp Site. And where is Bear Creek? Well, it is off around 115, just one exit beyond the Scranton interchange, off the Northeast Extension. Q Do you know how many acres comprise the Bear Creek site? [33] A Well, when we bought it, we thought we were acquiring 3500 acres and then it was necessary to survey PO PO > Pp _ the area that we bought and we picked up 300 acres. So we now have 3800 instead of 3500. Q Do you know the total cost of the Bear Creek site? A Yes, I think it was approximately $321,000. THE COURT: Synod’s Exhibit No. 7 to 7-E, are admitted in evidence. 94 BY MR. DITTMANN: Q And those, Dr. Janson, are copies of the deeds conveying the Bear Creek site to the Synod, are they not, sir? A Yes. Q And by that, I am referring to Exhibits No. 7 to 7-E. A Right. Q Now, Dr. Janson, do you know the date when the three Delaware River camps of the Synod were con- demned by the United States? A I believe that was 1970, that the formal condemna- tion took place. Q Would you tell us why the Synod has not proceeded to construct new, to develop a complete new campsite, at the Bear Creek location? A Yes, I think this long time has become a reality probably for two factors. I think, first of all, we were hoping that the * * * & * * t [39] hereafter referred to as the Church. The corpora- tion shall be in adherence to such Church or its lawful successor and amenable to its laws.” Q Now, in that connection, would it be fair to say that in promulgating the camping situation, the Camp Committees would be trying to adhere to that purpose, under that corporation? A Yes. Q May I have them back; they are basically the same. That is the later amendment, is it not? THE COURT: What is the number, Doctor? A 33-A is on the yellow tag. This is entitled, “Articles of Amendment of the East- ern Pennsylvania Synod of the Lutheran Church in America.” Q Now, that is changing the name again, is it not; in 1969, I believe? A Yes. 95 Q The date on that is 1969, is it, sir? A The date of that is 1969. Q And underneath that paragraph, changing the name, there is another paragraph again setting forth the purposes of the organization. A Yes. Q And would you read that paragraph? A Yes, it is starting with the four again. [40] “The purpose of the corporation is to promote the Christian religion according to the tenets of faith as set forth in the laws of the Lutheran Church of America, hereinafter referred to as the Church. The corporation shall be in adherence to such Church or its lawful suc- cessors and amenable to its laws.” Number five, “Cor- poration shall not contemplate pecuniary gain or profit incidental or otherwise to its members.” And six, “The corporation shall have perpetual existence.’”’ Seven, “The corporation is organized on a non-stock basis.” Q Now, to your knowledge, there has been no other changes in the name? A That is correct. Q And that would still be in effect today? A Yes. Q And would have been in effect in June, 1970? A Yes. Q Just while we are on that for a second, that para- graph dealing with, it does not contemplate pecuniary gain or profit, that is to qualify it under a religious corporation, is it not? A That is my understanding. Q In other words, if you made profit, you would have to start paying taxes? A Iam afraid that is the case, yes. [41] Q Okay, may I have it back. Would it be fair to say, in your opinion, that in con- ducting the camps, say for the period from 1962 up to 1970, that the camps did act in a way to promote the tenets and the teachings of the Lutheran Church of America? A I believe so. 96 Q In other words, do you know for a fact that the children, up until 1970, anyway, the majority of the yg that attended the camps were of the Lutheran ait A I believe I would like to ask the Executive Sec- retary to document that. I don’t believe the term ma- jority is quite accurate. There is always a shifting from year to year. Sometimes it is fifty/fifty. Sometimes it - be 55/45. The term, majority, throws me a little it. | Q Well, there was an affidavit submitted in this pro- ceeding by the Reverend Gulliford, that you mentioned, which is on file with the Court and I believe he states that under paragraph seven on page five, that in 1965, the percentage of Lutheran children attending the camps was 59 percent and non-Lutherans were 41 percent. Then, in 1966, it was 60 percent for the Lutheran, of Lutheran children, children of the Lutheran faith and 49 percent for non-Lutheran children. A Right. Q That in 1967— [53] REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DITTMANN: Q Dr. Janson, do you, is the camp operation by the Synod as previously described by you, consistent with the purpose of the Synod as stated in the charter documents that were shown to you earlier? A It would be my conviction, yes. Q And would you explain why you think the two are consistent? A Yes, well, I think the reason they are consistent is because of the philosophy of camping that has evolved and emerged. It is a very personal style of camping which there is a very close relationship between the counsellors and the campers. There is an effort to, you know, communicate about the world and about creation, about the presence of God. There is an effort to talk 97 about Christian values and as they relate to life. So, you know, with that kind of programming, I would say it is consistent when it talks about the articles of incorpora- tion, about the tenets of the Lutheran confession. Q Dr. Janson, do you have any idea of the amount of money that has been invested in the Bear Creek site, to date, in improvements? MR. RUVOLO: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: No, I think in view of the cross ex- amination, that is relevant; overruled. * * * ad (57) A I was at the United Church of Christ Con- ference Center, but no full-blown denominational church camp.. Q How about non-denominational camps or private camps, sir? A No. Q You have had no occasion to visit them? A No. MR. RUVOLO: No further questions. THE COURT: Next witness. ROY GULLIFORD, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DITTMANN: Q Where do you live, Pastor Sulliford? A I live in Berks County, suburban Reading, Penn- sylvania. Q And how long have you resided in that area? A Since 1964. Q And what is your educational background? A Iam a product of the schools of the City of Phila- delphia, attended Gettysburg College in Gettysburg, Penn- sylvania. Then, went on to the Lutheran Theological Seminary at Philadelphia where I received my Bachelor of Divinity and was ordained as a minister of the Lu- theran Church of America. 98 Q And when was that? [58] A 1959. Q And what has your career been since 1959? A I served briefly as an assistant pastor in Phila- delphia. In 1960, assumed for the first time my own parish in Chester County, a town called Lionville. I was there for four years, took six months off to get an ad- ditional decree and then se:ved as pastor of Reforma- tion Lutheran Church, Refton, suburban Reading, until 1970, when I was called by the Synod to serve as Ex- ecutive Director of the Lutheran Camp Corporation. Q And you are today the Executive Director of the Camp Corporation? A Yes, I am. Q What are your duties and responsibilities as Ex- ecutive Director of the Camp Corporation? A I am responsible for the working in conjunction with the Board in selection of the personnel, directors, staff, responsible for the oversight of the programs, the care of the facilities and of course, to the best of a clergyman’s ability, the fiscal concerns of the corporation. Q Would you tell us again to whom you report? I am responsible to the Camp Corporation Board. Q And that Board is made up of what? A Laymen and pastors, chosen by the Synod to over- see the camping operations. I am their employee. [59] Q And when did you assume that office? A March 1, 1970. Q Do you know the date when the United States con- demned the three camps that we have referred to before? A We were informed of the condemnation in August of 1970. At that time I was told that was backdated to June 1 of 1970. THE COURT: Maybe we can get that in by stipula- tion; can’t we? What is the agreed date? MR. DITTMANN: Of taking, Your Honor, June 15. June 15 was the date it was taken. 99 BY MR. DITTMANN: i Executive What other, since you were named as pissihar have you had any other camping experiences ivities? ay I was part of a, what was called the yee Pennsylvania Task Force. This was an ecumenical study of fifteen camp sites owned by Protestant churches in Eastern Pennsylvania. It was an attempt to study their sites, their programs, their philosophies, to see ae things could be done jointly and to develop an overa plan for the ’70’s, in which we could more cooperatively work and thus have more impact and accomplish more. that steering committee. Tah also invited by a sister Lutheran body, the American Lutheran Church, to be one of three ae studied the [60] same sort of thing for the Pittsburg camps of the ALC, Camp Agape. I am presently serving on the Convention Committee of the American Camping Association, Chairman of the In Depth Seminar Com- mittee for the National Convention which will be held in Philadelphia this March. I am responsible for determin- ing what the content of the seminars will be and in sr junction with the committee, chosing the people who wi seminars. si ; “— ME ponds Director, were you familiar with the operation of Camp Miller, Hagan and Ministerium in ats I was serving as Executive Director at that time i f Camp Ministerium. anR RUVOLO: i cine me, I didn‘t hear the last ae Also, Director of Camp Ministerium, the middle camp. BY MR. DITTMANN: I would like you to describe in detail to the jury, P| of all; tell us about Camp Miller, where was it ig Miller was about three miles north of the Shawnee on the Delaware. It was, I believe, 140 acres, 100 55 buildings, handled, could handle up to 260 campers with a staff of 68. Half of the site was river bottomed right along the river. The balance of it was going on up the mountain. Could I show that? [61] Q Yes. I show you a large photograph which I am going to have marked for identification in just a minute and ask you whether this shows Camp Miller? A Upside down, but it is Camp Miller. Q Now, what do you mean by upside down? A They reversed the photograph. It is Camp Miller, but it is, I guess when they put it on the poster board, they twisted it somehow. Somehow, it gets everything backwards. (Whereupon, a photograph of Camp Miller was pro- duced and marked for identification as Synod’s Ex- hibit No. 1.) BY MR. DITTMANN: Q This has been marked Synod No. 1. Now, Synod No. 1, that is a picture of Camp Miller, you say it is upside down? A Yes. Q And this is an inversion, I guess, that has been created by the photographer? A In making the poster, yes. Q How does that affect the picture? A Well, the river is still on the east and the moun- tains are still on the west, but the north end of the camp is on the south and the south end of the camp is on the north. I don’t know whether you want to pursue that or not. Q_ In other words, if you were approaching the camp [62] from the river, you would by airplane as this pic- ture does, you will actually see the buildings up here to = ae side and the open area would be to the left side A Yes. 101 Q Do we have a smaller picture that has been done correctly? A A little eight by ten is in the library. Q Ina minute, we will get that. Now, supposing I hand you Synod No. 1 and then I am going to ask you a little bit more. About how many buildings did you say comprised it? A Fifty-five buildings on the Miller site. Q What kind of buildings were they? A They were a variety of buildings, of course, that you would need for a camp. Originally, Miller was a farm and we had the farm house and barn and we were able to keep some of the area in farming so that some of the campers could see what farming is all about. Many of our campers are from Philadelphia and one boy asked how you could tell a bull from a cow. He didn’t know which were male and female, so it was helpful to see a bit of a farm that campers could see things firsthand. There were tennis courts, of course, large playing fields, atheltics were always a large part of the program. A large dining hall facility, that could comfortably accommodate 300. There was an infirmary, an arts and crafts [63] building, fully equipped. These actually are on the south. They were some of the original cabins built back in the 1920’s. All of these cabins were built in 1965. They were all replacement cabins. This whole string, I believe of fifteen cabins, so that when we say that the camp was established in 1927, the buildings, of course, continues as you grow and expand, you deveiop your facilities. A major por- tion of the program was here on the mountain where we could have all kinds of nature— Q And by the mountain, you are referring to that ~ wooded area shown on the left? A Yes, the mountain goes at about a 45 degree angle on the far said of the township road so that this was used quite extensively for camping. It was a convenient place for the youngest campers to be away just for one overnight. 102 This, of course, is the river. Q Would you tell us again the number of campers that were accommodated? A Camp Miller could accommodate 260 campers plus 68 staff. Q And prior to 1970, what kind of children were served by Camp Miller? What was the sex of the children? A Oh, I am sorry. They were all boys. Miller was an all boys’ camp and had been since is inception in 1921. We had boys coming back third generation. They would come back [64] and their fathers could show them on the rafters where they had put their initials when they were campers in some of the older cabins. So it was always a boys’ camp and exclusively a boys’ camp. The water front program was extensive. With the river, as we have it, we had very gentle parts of the river where the youngest campers could learn to canoe and as they became more adept at canoeing and had completed their instruction in canoeing and swimming, we would expand their trips, taking them all the way up to Narrowsburg, New York and bringing them through White Water, being able to come right back down to our site. Q How far is Narrowsburg? A Golly, I’m not sure. Q Itisin New York State? A Again, it is on the Delaware, so it separates Pennsylvania and New York, but it is up above Port Jervis, so it is, I would guess it is maybe 10 or 15 miles above Port Jervis. So it would be 40 to 50 miles from the site. Q How far is Port Jervis by road from the camp? A It is about an hour’s ride, I don’t know the mile- Q Going upstream from Camp Miller to the, what was the next camp? A The next camp was Camp Ministerium. Q How far was that from Camp Miller? [65] A They were separated by a farm and a couple of houses, probably about two miles. 108 Q And what was the method, what was the con- nection, method of travel between Camp Miller and Camp Ministerium? A The road, of course, paralleled and connected the camps on the western side and the river was our con- nection on the eastern side. Q And you say the road ran along next to the wooded area? A Yes, the road, you can just see a bit of the road here at the edge of the farm. It comes along here. It is in the valley itself coming out of Shawnee and then con- tinues on up and Ministerium would be just out of this picture. Q Tell us a bit about Camp Ministerium. What is the acreage and terrain at Camp Ministerium? (Whereupon, a photograph of Camp Ministerium was produced and marked for identification as Synod’s Exhibit No. 1-A.) BY MR. DITTMANN: Q And I will hand you a second air photograph which has previously been marked for identification as Synod No. 1-A and I ask you if you can first of all tell us what that photograph represents? A This photograph represents, again, an aerial view, looking down over the camp, looking over the Delaware towards [66] Port Jervis, shows you the area the gov- ernment would like to make a lake. The Camp Minister- ium facility was originally a farm. Q By the way, let me interrupt you. A Yes. x Q Do you know when the photograph previously marked as Synod No. 1 was taken? A No, I do not. These were photographs taken for _ the purposes of producing a postcard that kids could send right home from camp and these were, I am guess- ing from what I can see— Q Don’t guess. A They had to be in the late ’50’s or early ’60’s. 104 Q Was it made before 1970? A Oh, yes. I would guess the late ’50’s, early ’60’s. Q And would that same answer be true of a photo- graph of Camp Ministerium that you now have before you? A Yes, yes. Ministerium was originally a farm and many of its buildings historical. Q First of all, tell us the size, the number of acres involved in Camp Ministerium. A I believe there are 182, something over 180 acres at Camp Ministerium. There were 37 buildings. Minis- terium could, at the time it was developed, handle com- fortably 120 campers and a staff of 32. It was purchased by the Synod in [67] 1947 and developed in the years after that time. Q Now, tell us the kind of program that was con- ducted at Camp Ministerium. A Ministerium originally was what we called leader- ship training. This is where young people and originally, adults, were brought to camp for a week, choirs were brought to camp for a week, for a variety of schools that was an attempt to develop the leadership within the congregations. In the mid ’60’s Ministerium started and was the vanguard of a new kind of program called small group camping. Small group camping is an attempt to bring together youngsters from very different backgrounds of different races, of different creeds, city kids, urban kids and bring them together and have them, their task for the week is to learn to accept each other, to meet each other as people. We feel that the gospel is a gospel of love and that this gospel applies whether you are Chris- tian or not. There is a need to meet and accept people and to love people for what they are and so the task at this site is for youngtsers to do exactly this. We use the boating and canoeing at this site. We used the back- packing to teach them and to have living experiences of what they talk about in church school. In a sense, Ministerium was a laboratory for church school. It is like studying a frog and never cutting one up, if you don’t have a lab to go with what happens in 105 the class- [68] room. So, in a sense the camp is the lab for what happens in church school and this is the program that has been developed at Ministerium. It has now spread really across the nation and in this last year, I have been in contact with people in California and New Jersey, who want to know more about the development of this program because they are very interested in what is happening here. What is the status of Camp Ministerium today? A Well, the Ministerium facility in 1973— MR. RUVOLO: Objection, Your Honor, date of tak- ing would be 1970. I think it is irrelevant. THE COURT: Yes, I think so. BY MR. DITTMANN: Q How long did you continue to operate Camp Minis- terium? A The last season of operation was the summer of 19738, at this site. Q And where has Camp Ministerium been operated since 1973? MR. RUVOLO: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: I will permit it now. I can see the relevancy now. A Camp Ministerium, for the last two summers has been located at the new Bear Creek site in a retreat facility and it is the temporary headquarters. We have supplemented the retreat facility with tenting facilities so that we can continue [69] to run this program. BY MR. DITTMANN: Q Continuing upstream from Camp Ministerium and by the way, is that picture of Camp Ministerium that you have just referred to, is that inverted by the pho- tographer? A No, that one is right. Q That is a true representation? A That is a true representation. (Whereupon, a photograph of Camp Hagan was produced and marked for identification as Synod’s Exhibit No. 1-B.) ———OO tS > ~ re ™ 4 Yi f | | + ee 106 BY MR. DITTMANN: Q Now, I show you Synod’s No. 1-B and ask you what 1-B represents? A This is Camp Hagan. Again, east and west are east and west, but north and south are not north and south. Again, the transparency, I think has been flipped over. But the road comes in, the road that came past Miller and Hagan, then branched, one branch of the road went out to Bushkill and the other branch of the road continued here as a township road. I believe, the first part was a state, now this becomes township road. Continuing on past and a back road to Bushkill, again giving us access directly to our site. This is the road into the site. Q Tell us how big the Camp Hagan site is. [70] A _ I believe, forty acres and 34 buildings. Q What were the improvements that were, that were existed thereon, when the property was condemned? A All right, this site was purchased in 1937. Through ’37, ’38, the beginnings of the cabins were established. Building continued as funds were available and as it was necessary, again, up into the 1950’s when this large building— Q Now, you are pointing to a building in the center of the exhibit? A Yes, this is something called the Corn Crib. It had a full stage for theatrical production. It was a con- crete floor, a place where the kids, campers could go in inclement weather and also to stage productions. One of the last ones they did was “How to Succeed in Busi- ness.” This was one of the last buildings. Also built was this arts and crafts building. Q That building is located where in terms of the photograph? A On the back of the river. It is the white roofed building right here (indicating). And the arts and crafts building had a large stone fireplace, has a, still there, large stone fireplace and of course, kilns for ceramics 107 and al] the supplies necessary for a complete arts and crafts program. What was the capacity of Camp Hagan? [71] A Camp Hagan can take up to 240 with a staff again of 68. Camp Hagan was a girls’ camp. It was the sister to Camp Miller, the boys’ camp. Q How long, what is the operational status of Camp Hagan as of 1975? A Camp Hagan was in operation in 1975, but now, temporarily, called Miller-Hagan because of the loss of the Miller site. We combined the two programs on the one site. It is the holding action until all these things are resolved so that we can get going again. Q What happens, what is the operational status of Camp Miller? A At the time of condemnation in 1970, we had expected to continue to run all three of the camps. We had felt that there would be some arrangement that could be made because though the government had been saying for ten years they were going to build a dam, there still wasn’t anything happening and we had hoped that we would be able to continue until we could get just compensation and move out of the valley. , Unfortunately, there is tremendous vandalization of this site. It was awful. We had hoped, it became clear by mid-winter that we could not run a program here. Everything you can imagine was smashed or stolen. We had hoped at least to have one last father-son weekend so that fathers and sons could come back and what have you. It was impossible. The [72] site was too vandal- ized, too badly damaged and so we just had to walk away from it and merge the two camps on the Hagan site and hold the corps of our staff and hopefully the corps of our campers until we could move onto Bear Creek. Q Did you give the distance from Camp Ministerium to Camp Hagan? A Anmile and a half, two miles. Q What was your function as Executive Director in relation to these three camps that you have just de- scribed? —————™€- 108 A MayI sit down? Q Yes. A I was responsible for the on-site control. In other words, I represented the Board, the Camp Corporation on site. The programs, the staff, I was responsible for hiring the directors of the sites and just general over- sight on a day-to-day basis for the season of the summer camping program. Q How were these camps operated in relation to each other? A Programatically, they were independent. They ran their own separate programs, but originally, we were one operation. We did common purchasing, as Executive Director; I live at the center camp and oversaw, you know, just a mile or so in either direction, could see what was happening on the other sites, could participate in programs at the other sites. Our vehicles, our full- time people, all of us were [73] responsible for all three sites and with that short distance between, it was a very simple thing, it was really almost like one campus. MR. DITTMANN: If Your Honor please, would you indulge us for just a minute now? THE COURT: You would like to recess now? We will have a recess. Before we recess, Members of the Jury, I have your mileages here. Would it be incon- venient for any of you to stay until five o’clock? Do any of you have any transportation problem? If you do, tell me. I would be glad to cooperate. One final thing, what about some mornings we would like to start at 9:30? Would that make it inconvenient? We will recess. We usually have one recess in the afternoon. (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) (Whereupon, Roy Gulliford resumed the witness stand.) (Whereupon, a photograph of Camp Hagan was produced and marked for identification as Synod’s Exhibit No. 1-C.) 109 BY MR. DITTMANN: Q Pastor Gulliford, I show you a photograph which has been marked Synod’s Exhibit No. 1-C and ask you whether you can identify that photograph and what its relationship is to another photograph that has previously been marked? : x 4 i [87] 25 canoes, a few row boats that are used really for lifeguarding and something called playaks; there are thirteen playaks at Miller/Hagan and I think six, no, there are nine at Ministerium. A playak is a plastic, like a kayak, eight feet long and they were gotten for the youngest campers. So often older campers, young campers only sit in the middle of a canoe and they don’t get a chance to do things for themselves, so they were gotten so that these youngest campers could paddle around in a safe area and do things for themselves in- stead of having them done for them. That was basically our purpose. Q Directing your attention to the program that was conducted at the camps, would you give us a typical day, day’s schedule at Camp Miller? A Okay, I could really combine Miller and Hagan because they were much the same, always have been. The day would begin at quarter of eight and by eight o’clock the youngsters would be standing at the flag pole for the flag raising. Then, go into breakfast. Fol- lowing breakfast, it was clean up the cabin time. They called it cabin capers and then at nine o’clock they would have their first class which might be arts and crafts, it might be water front, it might be boating, you know. It could be anyone of a number of departments includ- ing nature and religion. MR. RUVOLO: I didn’t hear what he said. | [88] THE COURT: Including nature and religion. A Including nature and religion. There are five de- partments. There would be a break and in the second class, they would have three structured ciasses each day. Every- body would be at the water front at least once. They would be in canoes or canoeing program, at least four 110 to five hours a week. This might be lumped together be- cause you need more time to teach that sort of thing. In addition to the regular classes, there were clubs. The youngsters could chose a variety of things from, there was a water front club and they did scuba diving in the river and flipped over rocks to see what crayfish they could find and what have you. A fishing club, the youngsters would be shown and taught in the nature department the kind of fish that are in the river, the best way to catch them and then they would go out in the canoes and try to catch them. If they had any luck, they were brought back and the cook fried them for them. So that there would be clubs and these clubs would in- clude poetry or gymnastics or water front or fishing. So the day was partly structured and partly built on the basis of each youngster’s particular interests, The day would conclude with dinner and then an evening activity and cabin devotions and then, hopefully, to [89] bed, if we were lucky to get them into bed. That would be a basic day at Miller/Hagan. (Whereupon, a photograph of playing field was pro- duced and marked for identification as Synod’s Ex- hibit No. 5.) : bile gon ye Rony gs of soccer game was pro- uced and marked for identification ‘ - hibit No. 5-A.) prises ae entre a a as of girls’ senior area was produced and mar or identification i Exhibit No. 5-B.) ge ca : babirgi ps. Mayes gy of Great Hall was pro- uced and mar or identification ; - hibit No. 5-C.) Reeders : medio bd “sete abe of boys returning from ng was produced and marked for identificati as Synod’s Exhibit No. 5-D.) eee (Whereupon, a photograph of soccer game was 4 pro- duced and marked for identification f - hibit No. 5-E.) 5 ene 111 BY MR. DITTMANN: Q Now, Pastor, I will show you a final group of photos, number Synod’s No. 5 to Synod’s No. 5-E, which relate to program and activities and ask you to briefly tell the jury what each of these photograps shows and then we will [90] circulate those pictures. A This is one of the playing fields. What number is that, please? A I have forgotten, No. 5. We are looking with our backs to the river, looking toward the mountain across a playing field. This happens to be a baseball field. The arts and crafts building is here. Some youngsters are going to a fishing class. They have got their poles. We happen to have another shot of them coming back and Mr. Ruvolo noted that they didn’t have anything. Maybe they didn’t catch anything, I don’t know. Q By the way, the pictures, of course, were taken in 1975? A Yes, the same day. Q Do they represent the same things that were true in 1970? A No change in the conditiens in that picture at all. Q How about... A In succeeding pictures, ‘ am looking. Q How about co-educational features? A Oh yes, it is now boys and girls. Q But essentially, the program and activities re- mained the same? A Yes, remained the same. Q Okay, would you please continue. [91] A This is 5-A and this shows a soccer game going on in the background. You can see a tower that the senior boys erected as part of their lashing project. It ‘was thirty-some feet high and they were pretty proud of lashing the whole thing with no nails. They went on to build an eighty-five foot rope bridge after that. This shows the girls again. Q What number, please? A 5-B, this shows the girls’ senior area. The senior campers don’t have quite the structured program that the younger campers have. They set their own pace a lot oe eee SE ee eee ee - _—-> ay weg ’ 112 more, spend a lot more time backpacking and canoeing and being on and off the site. This is simply, this is not a structured activity. Q What number is that, please? A 5-C. Q What does that show? A This shows a portion of Great Hall and a misuse of the water fountain which was happening all the time. Some of the youngsters on free time, just horsing around. This again, shows the same. Q That number is what? A 5-D. Again, the same shot, the same boys happen to be coming the other way with their fishing poles, not having gotten anything. [92] And 5-E is another soccer game going on. All right. MR. DITTMANN: With the Court’s permission, I would like to circulate this. THE COURT: Yes. (Whereupon, Synod’s Exhibits No. 5 through 5-E were circulated among the jury.) BY MR. DITTMANN: Q Pastor, do you know whether or not any ratings or evaluations have been made of the camping program of any of the Synod’s camps? A Camps Miller and Hagan were members of the American Camping Association and as members must be evaluated and on-site evaluation in regular basis. The last of those was done in, I think, 1971, 1972, around in that area. We received a rating out of a possible 100, we received a rating of 85. Q What is the American Camping Association? A The American Camping Association is, to my knowl- edge, the only nation-wide organization devoted to watching over and increasing the professionalism of camps, not just church camps, but independent camps, agency camps, any kind of camp and to my knowledge, involving young people and providing standards so that parents can know what sort of camp they are sending their youngsters to. 118 Q Now, Pastor Gulliford, what qualifications, if any, [93] are necessary to be eligible to attend any of the river camps? A Simply, age. Youngsters at Miller/Hagan are eligible between the ages of 8 and 16, and at Ministerium, 9 to 17. Q And how are applications received for the camps? A On a first-come, first-serve basis. Q Are there any restrictions as far as race, color or creed? A No, no. Q Is there any policy of giving preference to any particular religious affiliation? A No. Q Do you have any data with respect to the religious distribution of campers? A I believe my office, I supervise my office, putting that sort of information together, yes. (Whereupon, a breakdown of Lutherans and non- Lutherans was produced and marked for identifica- tion as Synod’s Exhibit No. 9.) BY MR. DITTMANN: Q Pastor, I show you an exhibit previously marked Synod’s Exhibit No. 9 and ask you what that represents; take the stand, please. A This represents the breakdown of Lutherans and non-Lutherans at the camps. At Camp Miller and Hagan, from 1965 [94] to 1969 and then, when I became Ex- ecutive Director and we incorporated, we began for the first time to keep the records for Ministerium as well and so from 1970 through the end of this season, it repre- sents the number, the percentage of Lutherans and non- _ Lutherans at all of our summer operations. Q Including Bear Creek? A Yes. Q_ As far as 1975 is concerned? A Yes. Q And these, this exhibit was prepared under your supervision? A By my office, yes. 114 Q By the way, what was the distribution in 1965 be- tween Lutheran and non-Lutheran? A Fifty-nine percent of the campers were Lutheran, forty-one percent of the campers were non-Lutheran. Q And what was the distribution in 1970? A Forty-three percent were Lutherans and fifty-seven percent were non-Lutherans. Q And what was the distribution in 1975, including Ministerium? MR. RUVOLO: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled, You may state it. A Forty-nine percent of the campers this season were Lutheran and fifty-one percent were non-Lutherans. [95] BY MR. DITTMANN: Q Now, what efforts have been made by the Camp Corporation to serve children with special needs and/or with special problems? MR. RUVOLO: Your Honor, may we have a date on that as to what period of time he is talking about? BY MR. DITTMANN: Q At or prior to the time of the condemnation? A At or prior to the time of condemnation, I am at a loss to speak because I was not a part of the camp at that time. The camps were, as Dr. Janson indicated, under a committee of the Synod and so it was a variety of the Synod boards and agencies that worked with the camps at that time but I was not a part of it then. Q Well, since you have been Executive Director, what kinds of specialty of campers has the camps served? MR. RUVOLO: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. BY MR. DITTMANN: A Well, we have always felt that a part of our min- istry was to special need campers. Just down the road from us is Camp Wyomissing which was an underpriv- ileged boys’ camp in the City of Philadelphia and it was my introduction to the Poconos. I was one of those boys. So I was always especially interested in seeing these kinds of programs [96] developed. I think it ties in clear- 115 ly with our Lutheran theology which is reconciliation, getting people to meet and talk with each other so that we have made a concerted effort to oe ourselves a a variety of pr ms. Some start out as experimen and oe ene ne Some of them don’t. We have had retarded children, children who are retarded, I am told to say these days, from White Haven State School with very low I.Q.’s. Last summer a thirty-seven year old woman was with sixteen year old high school students in the Ministerium program, but she functioned on their level. We have had retarded people from institutions such as White Haven. We also regularly receive inquiries from parents of exceptional children, asking if we will take them. We usually ask that we receive a write-up on these youngsters from their doctor, their therapist, their coun- sellor and if agreement is reached, these youngsters are accepted into camp, if it is felt that they can be benefited by functioning in a normal program. Most camps have special weeks for exceptional children. I don’t happen to believe in that. We like to involve our youngsters in the on-going programs and we have had a good deal of suc- cess. We have had some failures. Some youngsters that we think are going to make it have to be sent home. Others make it. A boy with cerebral palsy this year swam the creek, took him all week, but he made it. So that we have had a regular on-going program with the exceptional [97] children from White Haven State School, from Silver Springs Institute, suburban Philadelphia. These were youngsters with learning difficulties. This was a program that didn’t work. These youngsters were too hyperactive for us to handle and so we had to termin- ate that one. ; Q What about underprivileged children? A Again, since we were incorporated, we have the ‘records. Prior to that, it was part of the on-going work of the Synod, and we began what we call a campership program as a corporation in 1970, having nothing to do with condemnation, but with mission and at that time we made an appeal to the congregations of the Synod to send us money that we could use to bring underprivileged youngsters into the camps. Our budget did not allow us 116 to directly handle this out of on-going receipts and so we had special appeals. This is continued to the point now where some of these youngsters have been with us five and six years. Some were in the counsellor and training programs and one boy with two arrests out of Wilkes-Barre is not a part of our year-around staff. So this had been going on since 1970. Q ae campership program serves children in what areas A In the Southeastern Pennsylvania Synod area, it serves children from what we call Center City Lutheran Parishes. This is an association of the parishes, Lutheran parishes in [98] the center city, Philadelphia, center city, through grants from agencies and through an appeal from Dr. Janson, sends a large number of campers, I don’t have the stats, right before me on how many they send. It also includes underprivileged youngsters from Allen- town, Bethlehem, Wilkes-Barre; sometimes we find a pocket. A pastor will contact us and say he knows of a family and this summer we had an underprivileged boy from North Wales, which is a rather affluent area, but we let the local agencies or pastors recommend these young- sters to us. (Whereupon, a document dealing with underpriv- ileged campers was produced and marked for iden- tification as Synod’s Exhibit No. 10.) BY MR. DITTMANN: Q I show you a document marked Synod’s Exhibit No. 10 and ask you whether that was prepared by you or under your direction? A Yes, Q And what does that show? A This shows this program starting in 1970 and up to this past season, 1975. Q And how many campers were served, underpriv- ileged campers were served in 1970? A First year of the program there was 92 campers who attended our camps for 149 weeks. [99] Q What do you mean, Pastor, by 92 campers for 149 weeks? 117 A Okay, we deal in what we call camper weeks be- cause our Miller and our Hagan programs have tra- ditionally been two-week programs: Our Ministerium program has always been a one-week program so for administrative purposes, we deal in camper weeks. A youngster can come to Miller or Hagan for, must come for at least two weeks, but can stay longer. At Minister- ium, because of the demand, people are only allowed to stay at Ministerium one week, but so when we talk about camper weeks, we are saying that 92 youngsters stayed a total of 149 weeks, some for two weeks, some for one week. Q By the way, how many, what is your date for 1972? MR. RUVOLO: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. BY MR. DITTMANN: A 1972, there were 115 campers for 208 weeks. Q And for 1975? MR. RUVOLO: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. A 228 campers for 364 weeks. BY MR. DITTMANN: Q What is the relationship between the camp pro- gram and the Tri-Square Masonic Program? A The Tri-Square Masonic group had owned their own [100] camp. This was lost in a condemnation pro- cedure, also, and instead of re-establishing themselves, they sought out and examined a variety of camping pro- grams and chose one to which they would send, I believe, underprivileged boys and the program they chose was Camp Miller and now, they continue to be involved in ' Camp Miller-Hagan. Q And do you know when that program began. A No, I do not. Q Had it begun prior to your becoming Executive Director of the Camp Corporation? A Yes, it had. 118 Q Is it continuing today? A Yes. Q Do you know the name of the person who is active in directing the Tri-Square Program? A The only name that comes to mind is the man who I believe is the Treasurer, who deals with my office all the time. Q What is his name? A Mr. Joseph Seligman. (Whereupon, a Fee Schedule for the camp, 1963 through 1975, was produced and marked for identifi- cation as Synod’s Exhibit No. 11.) BY MR. DITTMANN: Q Now, Pastor, I show you Synod’s Exhibit No. 11 ying ” * Y * [122] Q And I think we can agree that the operation of the three camps that you had was better than most and left something to be desired in some respects, isn’t that true? A There is always room to grow, yes. Q Sure. You might have wanted to have larger, a swimming pool for example rather than have the kids in the river, but still like to have the river for boating activities and things like that, isn’t that... A No, I wouldn’t agree to that. They can swim in a chlorine pool anytime. Q But anyway, we can fairly say that the operation went on in many ways similar to the programs operated by other camps, better than most and not as good as some? A Generally, yes. Q Okay, now, from your experience as Director and other experiences that you might have in the camping field, would it be fair to say that as of the date June, 1970, considering the physical facilities that existed at the three camps and considering the, you know, the im- provements as well as the terrain of the property, that this would be a good camp, a good campsite? A Yes. 119 Q Is that true? And it would be a desirable site to somebody who might be in the market for buying a camp, isn’t that so, assuming [123] that it was for sale, you know, avail- able? A There are so many variants in something like that, Mr. Ruvolo. There are things I would like to have seen changed that we would have changed if we were staying. Again, I would have to say, generally, yes. Q In other words, generally yes, it would be market- able if it were for sale and there was no question of the act coming in or property being taken; if a camp buyer came along and looked at that site, he would say, “Well, it is a good site for a camp”? ~ If there were a camp buyer, I suppose he would, or she. Q Now, the big difference, I think we can agree be- tween your type of camp, when I say that, I mean a religious organization-type camp, whether it be the Lu- theran or C.Y.O. or Jewish camp, would be in the goals, isn’t that true, or would the goals be similar? A I would think that the goals would be similar. When you mention C.Y.0. and Jewish camps and Protes- tant camps... Q Let’s narrow it down to just religious oriented camps, the goals would be similar, isn’t that so? : A On the basis, for instance of the 15-camp evalua- tion that we did in about 1972, there are a variety of goals and a variety of sites and programs. There is tremendous diversity, just in those, say, Protestant camps, so it is hard [124] to say, yes, we would all agree or yes, we would all do things generally the same way. It would be very difficult. Q When I say goals, I mean the purpose of running a facility such as this is in building the character, the ‘moral training and possibly improve on their religious education on the children that attend those camps, those children belonging to that faith? A Generally, yes. Q Now that. distinguishes those kinds of camps from, say, the Boy Scouts or the Girl Scouts or that type of 120 organization camp. They do not have religious programs that your camp would have, for instance, isn’t that true? A Generally, yes. Q And I think you testified yesterday, for example, that there was a morning session for religious classes to be given and then devotions would be in the evening at the end of the day? A No, at Miller-Hagan they, I believe they had a total of three hours in two weeks of what they call the re- ligion class. It wasn’t a daily event. There was, at the end of the day, there were cabin devotions and at Minis- terium, at the beginning of the day, there was a brief devotional period, a quiet time, introspective time. Q There is a chapel on the camp? A The camps each have a chapel. [125] Q Now, that is a major distinction from the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts and that type of thing, isn’t that true? A I doubt it, I imagine many of them would have chapels. Q Do they have required religious programs for the children at these camps? A I am not that familiar. I would doubt it, but I am not familiar enough to say yes or no. Q Now, there are other types of camps as well. For example, you read in the paper almost every Sunday, football camps run by Joe Namath and Terry Brad- shaw, basketball camps. Now, these camps have become very popular in the last few years, have they not? A For acertain group of people, yes. Q And have you any knowledge or are you aware of the fact that in the particular area, the Pocono area, that quite a few of them have sprung up over the past few years? ae I know there is a Pocono Sports Camp on Route Q Right. And those kinds of camps, their major goal is to concentrate on that major sporting activity? A Develop a particular skill, I believe. 121 Q Develop a skill. But they also have swimming, generally; they have other fields for recreation and sometimes arts and crafts? A Ican’t say, I have never visited them. [126] Q I think you mentioned yesterday that you did have a personal experience with Camp William Penn, is that correct? A Yes, I spent a day at Camp William Penn in about 1972, ’73, I believe it was. And your counsel asked you, I believe, to compare the William Penn camp with the operation that you had going on at the time and I think you said that the major difference was the difference in goals? A Yes, my impression was that this was the case. Q Would you explain to us what you felt to be the goal of the William Penn Camp? A Well, William Penn camps first were limited to the disadvantaged. They were, the campers were sent by various playground organizations in the city, designated playground catchment areas, whereas of course, we were open to the advantaged as well as the disadvantaged. They didn’t have the variety of programs that we offer. Q Such as? A Well, such as boating and canoeing. They had no boating and canoeing. They didn’t have the overnight backpacking kinds of experience that we have. They didn’t have the maturity of counsellors. Q Just limit it at this point to goals. What was the [127] goal of that William Penn camp as you saw it? A As I saw it, the goal of William Penn camp was to get disadvantaged campers out of the city for a couple of weeks. Q And put them in a different environment and hope by doing that, to possibly break them from some of the habits of living in the ghetto areas, eventually? A Give them the taste of an alternative, I would think. Q Now, how does that differ from the goal that you felt was in existence as regards these three camps? A Well, we worked much harder in terms of pro- gram development. Anybody can get people out of the 122 city for a couple of weeks. We wanted to make good use of those couple of weeks with a very carefully developed program. Our main thrust at both of our camps is to help youngsters understand the inner actions of living to- gether so that you have youngsters on an overnight, we think this kind of thing is very important because it is on an overnight, for instance, that you can begin to work with the variety of dynamics within the group. It is the pressures of an overnight that get youngsters to have to work together. If it is ten o’clock at night and they haven’t collected the wood for the fire, they are getting pretty hungry. We are using many of these things as a means and what we are after is the dynamics of living together and how [128] that can be improved. Q I was interested in what you said yesterday that you considered this to be a laboratory for the, I think it was the theology or the, I don’t know the exact quote at the moment. Do you recall what that statement was, a laboratory? A For church schools. Q For church schools, right. In other words, you were trying, you felt that this was a good place for them to get some of the good foundations of the church and the teachings of the church that would normally take place in a church school? A No, no. Q What did you mean by that statement? A Perhaps I can help with an example. A few years ago, I had a call from a woman saying she would like to place her son in the camps and pro- ceeded, you know, to explain the different programs so she could choose and what developed in the conversation was that she was feeling guilty. It was a mixed mar- riage and her son had not attended church or church school and he was getting close to what we consider confirmation age, junior high, and so that she asked if maybe two weeks or four weeks in a camp might give him some Christian education and I said, “We can’t 123 replace church school, you know; don’t ask us to do what you haven’t done in twelve or fourteen years.” [129] And the reason I use this as an example is that in church school or in classroom situations, whether it be in the context of religious education or general educa- tion, there are so many things that you can’t learn sitting in a chair around a table, especially youngsters. At times, I have taught church schooi confirmation class and when you want to move towards a point, you have to say to them, “Do you remember some time when you were mad,” and they were sitting in ties and suits and they are on their good behavior for an hour and they are not listening, you know, but at least, possibly they will get the content. They will get the foundations in that context. At camp, we can talk to them when they are mad, you see, and they are having the feelings at that time. They never slept with a black in the same room, with a black before. Now, when they were in their suburban home, this really wasn’t a problem for them, but in the context of camp, it became a problem. So, this is what I mean by a laboratory. We had the feelings, the living situations from which we could then help them to understand what had been talked about in church school or had been talked about in classes, where the nature department; as I said yesterday, you can look at all the pictures you want to about a frog, but until you sit down and cut one up, you are not going to know where the intestines are, you are just not. [130] Q In your opinion, which is the most of the two, and they are both important. Let’s understand that, but which is the most important aspect of these three camps; what you are just talking about, the getting to know nature, the enjoyment, love and gospel and brotherhood _ or is it the physical part of the program; the swimming instruction, the fishing instruction, the boating instruc- tion, that type; which would you feel is the purpose of your camps, the most important, you know, priority? A I don’t think either would work without the other. It is like saying which is more important, the first floor or the second floor. 124 Q Well, they do work in other camps. A Ican’t speak for other camps. Q Or one does not exist in the other camps. A But I can’t speak for other camps and you are asking me what I think is most important. I think they are both important. You can’t separate them. Q You can’t separate them. Now, William Penn, you said that is a camp for un- derprivileged children. Do those children pay any fees to go to that camp? A I don’t know, I am not sure. I would doubt it, but I am not sure. Q And you mentioned Wyomissing. That was a Big ** as Sd * * [138] Q Now, when you got to the religious dis- tribution of campers, were those children included in your computation? A Those children are included. The registration form has a spot to list religious denomination so that if they were Lutheran, they would have been counted as Lu- theran. If they were not, you know, they would be listed os non-Lutheran, but that is right on the registration orm. Q By the way, would you have a copy of the regis- tration form or application? A Golly, I may have one in my briefcase left over from this last season. 8 Well, when you get your other records, would you see A I will look, yes. I could have one sent down. Q Fine, appreciate it. Now, according to your testimony regarding Exhibit No. 9, Synod’s Exhibit No. 9, in 1965, the percent of Lutheran as against non-Lutheran was 59 percent Lu- theran, 41 percent non-Lutheran, correct? A Yes. Q In 1966, it went up to 60 percent Lutheran, 40 percent non-Lutheran? A Yes. 125 Q In 1967, it went up to 62 percent Lutheran, 38 percent non-Lutheran? [189] A Yes. Q In 1968, it went up to 64 percent Lutheran, 36 percent non-Lutheran, correct? A Yes. Q In 1969, it went up, down a little bit to 61 per- cent Lutheran to 39 percent non-Lutheran? A Yes. Q In 1970, by coincidence, that was the year that you became Executive Director? A Yes. Q Correct? And. it was also the year that the government ac- quired the property, correct? A Yes. Q And that year, the figures changed the other way; 43 percent Lutheran, to 57 percent non-Lutheran, cor- rect? A Yes. Q Would you explain why the big change? A I think it is right on the exhibit, sir, at the top. Q That being on top, it says that you reflect only Miller and Hagan, isn’t that correct? A There were no non-Lutherans, non-Lutheran rec- ords before I came on the scene for Camp Ministerium. Q Oh, I see. A And when I came on, I said I wanted to know what the [140] whole breakdown was and so in my year end report, I received the breakdown. The other years don’t reflect Ministerium; that is what it says at the top of the exhibit. QI see, okay. Now, Ministerium was a little bit different from the other two camps, was it not? When I say different, I mean, not only physical in size and that kind of thing; I mean in operation of the camp. Programmatically, yes. Programmatically. Miller was for girls, I believe? Boys. And Hagan was for girls? Um-hum. PO PO Pp 126 Q And Ministerium was? A Co-ed. Q Were they older campers? A Miller and Hagan campers could start at age eight and go to age sixteen, but Ministerium, it was age nine to sixteen. Q Now, we are talking about 1970, correct? A Yes. Q And prior thereto as far as you know from your own knowledge? A (Witness, nodding head.) Q So that, the program would differ because the age [141] was different with the children? A Well, the program differed because it was a dif- ferently oriented program. It didn’t have much to do with the age of the children. Q What was the difference in the program? A In Miller and Hagan, programs, are structured, scheduled programs with a large emphasis on the skills. As I mentioned yesterday, the various Red Cross, the aquatics and the nature, the various departments; Minis- terium is as I said yesterday, a small group camp which means that we try to bring together people from very different backgrounds and in the pressure cooker of hav- ing to live and work together, help them to break through the various barriers that people have towards people who aren’t like them. So that it was more of a socializa- tion kind of camp experience than it was a, let’s teach them Red Cross life saving. Q With more of, say, the disadvantaged children be- ing sent to Ministerium because of this type program rather than the other two camps? A No, I think the opposite is true. The reason I think for that is that Ministerium is a more verbal program and disadvantaged youngsters often are dis- advantaged verbally but they are not necessarily dis- advantaged in terms of athletics and physical skills and so generally, we find that disadvantaged youngsters are better for the first couple of [142] years in the Miller- Hagan program until they become comfortable in the climate. 127 Q Could you give us an idea of say in 1970, how many of the disadvazitaged children, if any, would have gone to Ministerium? A Now, again, I would have that record in the motel room, I am sure. Q You have that record. Now, was Ministerium also at one time, I am not sure of the date, wasn’t that used as a family retreat center as well? A We were experimenting for a few years because we were most anxious to get into family camping and to work with whole families. We were experimenting, with using the campsite for family camping. It was not built for family camping and it didn’t lend itself comfortably. I believe as I mentioned yesterday, our design was to have established family camping facilities across the road from the existing camp, if we were staying and be- cause we just weren’t satisfied with the product, we de- cided to end family camping until we were able to move and do it right. Q Okay, now, when did you start the family camp- ing type operation and when did you discontinue it as far as these three camps are concerned? A To my knowledge, family camping was discon- tinued * * * [158] THE COURT: No, I think it is relevant. Over- ruled. A Generally, not specifically. BY MR. DITTMANN: Q And by private camps, I mean camps that are operated for a profit. How are they usually referred to, in the camping business? A Private, independent camps. Q Private, independent camps. Now, directing your attention to Synod’s Exhibit No. 11, which I believe is before you? A Yes. Q And that exhibit relates to fees paid by campers? A Yes. 128 Q Would you tell us, and focusing on the year 1970, ee ‘3 fee paid by Lutherans was what? 45. Q And the weekly fee paid by the non-Lutherans was how much? A $47. Are you in a position to compare that weekly fee with the weekly fee charged by private, independent camps at that time? A Generally. Q What would be the approximate fee per week —_ by a private, independent camp be as of that a [159] A Camps comparable to our program, generally on a seasonal basis would be $800 to $1,000 to $1100 for eight weeks. a dividing those figures by eight, you would get wha A Something over $100 a week. We estimate that our costs run at least $18 to $20 a week more than what we charge consistently, per week. Are you familiar, you have met the parents of many of the children who have been involved as campers over the years? A Yes. Q Have you visited them in their homes? A Occasionally. Q We have been discussing underprivileged children and I would ask you whether the children and their parents who have been coming to the camps over the years, not classified as underprivileged, ask whether or not they come from families of modest circumstances? A Generally, I would say yes, because the Lutheran church generally represents a modest income, a middle income people with a smattering of professional and much higher income. Q Then, do I understand it that the tuition rate charged Lutherans in 1970 and on the other years shown in [160] P. 11 is substantially less than private rates to your knowledge? A Oh, for comparable camps, considerably, because we don’t make a profit. 129 Q And has it been your experience and observation over the years that these, that the rates that are charged for your camps have enabled a substantial number of children to have a camping experience who otherwise would not have been in a position to do so? A Yes, especially; now, I can’t document this, but I am concerned that generally in life, more and more things are available to the disadvantaged than to the greatly advantaged and less and less things available to the middle income people and it has been one of our concerns that camp be available to youngsters of middle income people and we have struggled to keep the rates down for that purpose. Mr. Ruvolo said you could break even if you charged— Please don’t quote Mr. Ruvolo. A I’m sorry. If we did charge another $10, if some- body has got three children, that’s thirty dollars and if they are a middle income family, that can hurt and so we try to keep it at that level. MR. DITTMANN: That’s all. THE COURT: Anything else? MR. RUVOLO: Just a couple of questions. [161] RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RUVOLO: Q When you talk about private, rates being quite different from private, independently run camps, I can see that. How about, would the rates compare with Boy Scout camps? A We are higher, generally higher than Boy Scouts. Q How about Girl Scout camps? A Generally the same. Q Y.M.C.A.? A Golly, Conrad Weiser in my area of Reading is higher than us. Q How about C.Y.O., or something like that, an- other religiously oriented camp? A I really don’t know. Q Wouldn’t know, okay. 130 And on these children, these parents that, do you get many kinds that are repeaters, I mean, come back year after year? A Yes. Q Do you get many kids that come from different states? A Some, yes. Q I spoke with a Mr. Lombardy or Lombardo, one of your camp directors? A Yes. [162] Q He told me that some of the kids, you tell me if it is accurate, I don’t know, he told me that some of the kids come as far away as Florida; their parents bring them up? A One boy that I know of because we always have to make arrangements to pick him up. It is one of these instances where the father was a Miller camper. It’s the traditional thing, wants his son back to grow up where he grew up, yes. Q Few about other than Pennsylvania; we know from New Jersey, I presume you get some from New York? A Considerably less from New Jersey, but some from New York. Q Any other states you can think of, surrounding states or otherwise? A Delaware, Maryland; two boys from Puerto Rico, these are the ones that come into my mind. MR. RUVOLO: No further questions. THE COURT: All right, next witness. MR. DITTMANN: I would like to move for the ad- mission in evidence of the series of photographs marked for identification by the Government and submitted to the jury, i.e., the photographs of Camp Ministerium, I think it is Government’s Exhibit series No. 4 to 4-F. THE COURT: I am going to admit into evidence every exhibit offered by the plaintiff if it has not been received in evidence. [163] MR. DITTMANN: The Government hasn’t of- fered them so I would like to offer them, the five photos. THE COURT: Is it all Government’s exhibits are now in evidence as well as the Synod’s exhibits? 131 MR. DITTMANN: I think there is one that I objected to, 33, 34. THE COURT: May I see covrsel at side bar. (Discussion off the record at side bar.) ROBERT NEUMEYER, called as a witness, being duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DITTMANN: Q Pastor Neumeyer, where do you live? A I now live in Philadelphia. Q And what is your profession or occupation? A I am a clergyman and a director of the inner city work for the Lutheran church, Southeastern Penn- sylvania Synod. Where are you headquartered? A Nineteenth and Chestnut is my office. The Synod office is in Germantown. Q And how long have you served as director of the Center City Parish? A It will be 11 years this September. Q Would you tell us, please, what the function and responsibility of the Center City Lutheran Parish is? [164] A Center City Lutheran Parish is a loose fed- eration of 23 Lutheran churches, all in the inner city and deep ghetto areas of Philadelphia. The purpose is to reach out, primarily to that segment which was, is normally called the underprivileged, the unemployed. It is predominantly black and Spanish with some poor white mixed in, but it is the, racially speaking, it is the black section of Philadelphia. And we try to expand the min- istry there in terms of the church and service to the community and so this special organization was develop- ed 11 years ago. Q And how many churches did you say are included in this parish? A Twenty-three. Q And when I refer to the parish in the future, I will be referring to its actual title, I will mean the 182 Center City Lutheran Parish. By the way, what is your educational background, Pastor? A Born and raised in Allentown, went to Allentown public schools. From there, to Muhlenberg College and then, the seminary at Philadelphia, Lutheran seminary. Q You graduated from the seminary when? A February of 1945, I think. Q And then after your graduation, what was your pastoral experience? A Well, I was in the United States Navy for a couple [165] of years as a chaplain in the South Pacific and then from there I went to Williamsport, Pennsylvania, for about five years and then to Wilmington, Delaware, in a congregation, pastor of a congregation and from there to Philadelphia. Q And you have been in your present position almost 11 years? A Right. Q What do the activities of the Center City Parish include? A Well, of course, each congregation is autonomous in that they can do the things that meet the needs of their particular neighborhood best and my job is to try to co- ordinate some of those. In other words, if five or six bases need a special kind of thing, then it is my job to work at that. For example, college motivation. Our kids, ten years ago, we had practically none in college. Today, we have about 150 in college and that involves tutors, remedial reading. It involves motivation trips to various college campuses. It involves getting jobs, it involves setting up savings accounts so that the kids are putting money away that they can go. It is that kind of thing. We are in day care. We have about 500 children in day school in preschool education programs. We do some work in community organization, trying to change neighborhoods. We do some gang work. Then, there is the normal, what I call the normal [166] things that most congregations do. We do lead- ership training in terms of evangelism, stewardship, what have you. We run a very large summer, we call it a sum- mer Bible camp which is not, which is different from the residential camping that we are talking about here. 133 We had 2,700 involved in that program with a staff of nearly 200, all of which are now indigenous leaders. Ten years ago when we started, we had no leadership at all for the summer programs from our own churches. College kids came in to work with us. Now, we have our own. So it is that widespread of a variety of pro- grams. : Q Well now, this case pertains to the camping pro- gram of the Synod. A Right. Q Along the Delaware River? A Right. P Q And you are familiar with the three camps that are involved? A Right. Hf Q In fact, you have been sitting here in the court- room this morning, have you not? A Yes. Q And would you tell us, would you direct your attention now to your parish activities that deal with summer residential camping program? A Yes. Well, some years ago, we felt that we had to [167] do something to try to get our kids the bene- fits of a good residential camping program. Prior to that time, they had gone to some camps that the city or model cities or the anti-poverty program had run and you may have, there were some headlines about in- vestigations of some of those camps. One particularly that was run in Delaware, which the conditions were horrible, the leadership was bad and we said, “We are going to make every effort to get our kids into a quality camp.” So, we looked at our Synod’s camps and said, “That’s where we want to go.” So, it was my job then to try to raise the money to help kids to go and to nego- tiate with the camp to see if we could get some special rates. So that, this past year, we had, let’s see. We managed to get 287 camp weeks at Miller, Hagan and Ministerium and 121 weeks at Central Pennsylvania Synod Lutheran camps and the funding of that is a joint funding. The parents, every family must pay something. No child goes for nothing unless it is an 134 extreme emergency but we don’t like the hand-out sys- tems so every family must pay something. The Synod raises campership money and I write proposals to foun- dations, trying to get assistance and then, of course, there is the discount that comes from the Camp Corpor- ation but our reasoning for going beyond is because the way the segregating housing patterns are now *. Phil- adelphia, our kids can literally go through schvol with- out knowing any white kids at all and the hassle [168] that is going on in the schools and the busing and all that, we feel has to have some positive approach and camping for us is. It is the time when our black kids can get to know white kids in an excellent setting and when the white children, who come from other sections of the Synod and very rarely have communication with black kids can do that and we feel that a racial aspect, it is very important and foundation money has frequent- ly come to us because of it. Q May I interrupt. Pastor, when did you first start sending these children to the Synod, the three Synod camps in Delaware River? A Well, there have always been some children who went on their own. Obviously, not all black people are poor people and there were some of moderate means who could afford to do it. We began, let’s see. I guess it would have been, J know that when I came in 1964, there were some children who were there but it has been particularly in the past five years that there has been-a big effort and where we are able to get foundation assistance and where the Camp Corporation itself was of great help to us in mak- ing it possible. So, there has been an increase. I would guess, well, it certainly has been more than, more than quadrupled in the past six, seven years, the number of children and the number of weeks. Q How are the [Text truncated at 120,000 characters. The full text is on the page linked above.] --- Source: Frix Law Library, https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40385005_1758%3A2. Public record. Not legal advice.