# Appendix — Mobile v. Bolden

> Briefs, arguments, decisions, and more.

URL: https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40385005_1226%3A03

## Record

- **Collection:** Supreme Court brief
- **Document type:** Appendix
- **Published:** January 1, 1980
- **Citation:** 446 U.S. 55

## Text

Supreme Court, U. &
FILED |

NOV 16 i978

~~

MIOWAEL RODAK, JR., CLERK

APPENDIX

VOLUME II — Pages 306 - 620

IN THE

Supreme Court of the Anited States

OCTOBER TERM, 1978

No. 77-1844

CITY OF MOBILE, ALABAMA, et al,
Appellants,

WILEY L. BOLDEN, et ai,
Appellees.

ON APPEAL FROM THE UNITED STATES
COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT

JURISDICTIONAL STATEMENT FILED JUNE 27, 1978
PROBABLE JURISDICTION NOTED OCTOBER 2, 1978

ioe:

(i)
INDEX
Volume II
Page
Testimony of Lambert Mims......................0005- 307
Testimony of Gary Greenough .................00500005 396
Testimony of Lambert Mims (Resumed).................401
Testimony of Gary Greenough (Resumed)............... 485
Testimony of James E. Voyles (Resumed)............... 500
Testimony of George Winstanley.....................4.. 518
ee I vi ca ceccccoccctéosccccossceses 524
ee I i cncdccccctcoccccedéeneencads 540
Testionomy of Jack GumMmnerell ... 2... cccccccccccccccces 545
ee ry ED 6c cncccadccccctecsccseeces 546
Testimony of John A. Calametti.....................06. 556
Se vnc 00 kes bataudncdeekdsocccesckacanccas 568
Plaintiffs’ Exhibits
No. 5 — 1973 Mobile Voter Registration for Selected
WD curds oud cbbdpcebhensSecissneddeduddpesvus cn 572
No. 6 — 1976 Mobile Voter Registration for Selected
Wn knctscaceudeeusiesusdecesenbabieaednsess 573
No. 7 — Summary Mobile County Voter Registration. ... . 574
No. 9 — Excerpts from Voyles Thesis: “*An Analysis
of Mobile Voting Patterns, 1948-70" ................ 575
No. 53 — Summary of Statistical Analyses.............. 591
No. 61 — Excerpts from File ““Newspaper Ads”......... 593

No. 62 — Newspaper article “Numerous Cross

(ii)

No. 64 — Summary of City Committees ................ 601
No. 65 — File of Grand Jury Report and Newspaper
clippings from 1976 re: Police Brutality.............. 605
No. 73 — Summaries of City Employment Data (1975). ..611
No. 75 — Summary — City Streets .................... 614
No. 111 — Sub exhibit N to Documents regarding
Utilization of Revenue Sharing Funds................ 615

were concerned was held the next day, that is April 9th.

| to the extent that he has them, indicate that that is

(RECESS)

THE COURT:

All right. You may proceed.
MR. ARENDALL:

If your Honor please, during the noon recess,
Mr. Doyle checked his secretary's calendar and it appears
that the call from Mr. Clint Brown came in on April 8th,
a Thursday, sometime between eleven-thirty in the morning

and three-thirty-five in the afternoon, the exact time was

| mot noted, because he accepted the call without his secretary

making some notation that he had called at a certain time

and it appears that the meeting with some of those who
|
So that it could properly be referred to as a Friday meeting

rather than a Thursday meeting.

My understanding is that Mr. Blacksher's own notes,

| correct.
THE COURT:
Fine. Thank you. Are you through with the witness?
| MR. ARENDALL: |
Yes, sir. |
“THE COURT:

Whom will you have next, please?

—os 74

larly strong support?
A Well, there was Reverand Tunstall, and Mr. Evans
and a number of other blacks who played a good part in my |
campaign for re-election.

Q Did you visit the non-partisan voters league?

a Not in the '73 campaign. When I ran in 1965 I

was screened by the non-partisan voters league.

Q Did yougo to the polls in 1969 and do you remember
any of the activities of Mr. Beasley, at that time?

a Yes, I do.

Q Tell us about those.

a Well, it has been my policy, every since I have

been involved in politics, on election date, to make as

many polls as possible and, on that particular election day

in 1969, Mr. Beasley was, if my memory serves me correctly, |

it was my understanding that he was actually discouraging |

- black people from coming to the polls and participating in

standing at the ward ten balloting place on Davis Avenue and

the election process.

Q Mr. Mims, before we go into details with respect

to your responsibility as public service commissioner, I malt
like for you to outline for the Court the basic set up for |

the supplying of various governmental services to Mobilians?

First, Mobile Water and Sewer Board, what is that?

|
| B26 = =a
|
| Q Now, Mr. Mims, in your 1965 race for the City |
| Commission were there seven candidates including the then |
| incumbent, Mr. Charles Trimmier?
: A Mr. Trimmier was a candidate and I am sure that
number is correct.
Q I will ask you whether or not, in that election you
had a runoff between yourself and Henry Luscher, Jr., whose
father had previously been a member of the Commission?
A This is correct.
Q In 1969, were you again opposed by Mr. Henry Luscher
Jr., as well as Charles F. Cooper and were you re-elected
without a runoff?
A This is correct.
Q In 1973 were there six candidates, including
Alphonso Smith and Lula Albert, who were black?
A This is correct.
Q Did you win in that race without a runoff?
A I did.
Q Mr. Mims, in that race did you seek black support?
A I have always sought black support.
Q Did you have any blacks active in your political
campaign?
A Yes, I did. |
Q Could you identify any blacks who gave you particu- |
307 ee |

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825

entity separate from the City Commission.
which are appointed to that board by the City Commission

> a 2 ee 8 a 2

A Well, the Mobile Water and Sewer Board is an
The members of

and this board has the responsibility of providing water and
sewer service to the citizens of the City of Mobile.

Is it established by State law?

This is correct.

Is Mr. Milton Jones a black, a member of that board? |
He is.
Does that board handle City drainage matters? |

Not storm drainage matters.

That is a function of the City government, itself?
This is correct and, under the specific duties of

the public works commission.

Q All right.

| you give us the relationship of that unit to the City

I am not mistaken.

“this board.

'

Mobile County Health Department. Would

a Well, the Mobile County Board of Health has

| government?

members who serve at the pleasure of the County Commission, if
The City Commissioners do not appoint to

However, by statute, by State law, each municipality |

within the County, as well as the County, has to contribute

=e

to the Board of Health and in the case of the City of Mobile

—=pe-

— 2a sf

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regard?

|

_ we contribute far more than the amount that is prescribed by
_ law. I think we support the Board of Health at the tune of
two dollars and forty cents per capita when the State law

actually requires sixty cents, if I am not mistaken.

Q Mobile Housing Board?

a The Mobile Housing Board is also a separate entity and

| its function is to provide public housing for the City of |
| Mobile and the members of that board are appointed by the |

Mobile City Commission or more specifically the mayor, who is
| serving, at that time.

! Q Is that the agency that has been charged of public

| housing here and works with the Federal agencies in that

A“ This is correct. They work for closely with HUD and.

the other Federal agencies and, in the past, had been

designated as our urban renewal agency in the City.

Q Was Mr. John LeFlore a member of the board?

| A He was for a number of years.

Q Is there currently, on the board, Mr. John F. Grey,
“who is black? ;

A He is black, yes.

Q And he is on that board? |
A This is correct. |
Q Mobile County Personnel Board? |

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827

la Well, the Mobile County Personnel Board is certainly
| separate from the City Commission. In fact, in many cases
' has more power, in my opinion, than the City Commission,

| because it tells us what to do.
T

It ie a three member board and these board members

'

iI
| are selected by a supervisory committee that is made up of
| one representative from each of the participating governmenta!

|
i!

entities. a
Q That would be the City of Mobile has only one
member on the supervisory committee?

A This is correct. And I think there are seventeen

|
|
| members of that committee, and it has been a contingen of

| the City government for a long time that there is a terrible
tnadequaty that exists here inasmuch as we are called on to

| pay fifty-five percent of the operating costs of this board,
| yet we only have one vote out of seventeen in selecting the

| board members and, of course, the board members then select

| a director and they operate the program and screen all

| applicants for job opportunitites in the City as well as in

all of these other governmental agencies.

Q When the City considers that it wants someone to --

or wants to fill a position on the City payroll, what procedui
{

| te followed?

— se so

lA Well, if we want a secretary, for instance, a position

ie

all

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ae

——- =-- —— —_—-

ts opened for secretary or a position has been vacated, and
we need to fill that vacancy, we notify the Personnel Board

| that we need to fill this vacancy. They, in turn, furnish “
with a certified list of qualified people.

In other words, when we get the list from the |
| Personnel Board we have the assurance that the names on eI
| list have been examined and screened and they are qualified |
| to do whatever it is that we need to have done and, in this |
case, we are talking about a secretary. So, we have five |
| names on the list, say, and then we have the privilege of |
selecting from the top three and every vacancy within the

City, with the exception of the City Attorney and one or

two appointed positions, every one of them are handled just

| this way.

Q I understand they give you a list of five names,

but you may only select from the top three?

A Well, I just used the number five, there could be ten

| on the list, we still can select only from the top three.

| Q Out of curiosity, why do they give you more names t
| three, then?
A Well, these names move on up the list. Say there ar
ten names on the list for stenographic secretary, within the
_ system and the City of Mobile this week needs a secretary and

we take the one right off the top. Well, then, the number
ee Sees a tee eee ae |

30 ——_——_---—+-

two person moves up to number one and say maybe the County |
might need a secretary and they can select from that top
three.

Q I see. Are there any other agencies that are actual

not part of the City of Mobile's government that perform

important function in providing public services that I have |

not asked you about?

A Well, we have recently set up the Mobile Transit
Authority that handles the public transportation for the City
and then we have an interim airport authority that assists
the airport commissioners and the City Commissioners in the
operation of the airport.

Q Both of those established under State law?

A Well, the transit authority is under State law and

it is my understanding and we hope some day to have a perma~
nent airport authority, however, at this time, it is kind of
an acting authority, for lack of a better word.. We have
used interim airport authorities. |
Q Does the City subsidize bus service in Mobile?

a We do to the tune of three hundred thousand dollars
a year.

Q Would you give us any estimate as to the percentage

of blacks and whites respectively who ride the buses?

A Well, I am sure I am correct in saying that the largest

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percentage of riders would be blacks and it is my under-
standing that only four percent of the people of Mobile
actually use the service in any one given day.

Q That is both black and white?
A Right. |
Q Would it be fair to say that an overwhelming number |

of the actual riders are black?
A This is correct.

Q Now, let's go to City committees, Mr. Mims. I don't
know whether you were present in Court or not, but the

Plaintiffs have introduced as their Exhibit 64 a list

supplied by us at their request of all the boards and

committees and so on that are or have been around Mobile in

recent years and I am just going to have to go down them one

by one.

The board of adjustment, is that an agency required by
State law?
A Yes, and it is one of the more active boards.
Q What does it do?
a It rules on variances. For instance, if the person
wants to add on to his house and build a garage and it is going

to go over near the line closer than the six foot that is
allowed, then that person would come befere this board of

adjustment and get a variance.

ee

——-——+83L

|
i

= ae

Q Doesn't he first go to the City planning commission
and then to the board of adjustment or does he?

A No. I don't think so. The planning commission is
another planning function that I imagine we will get into

later.
Q All right. Of the seven members of that board, is
one of them black?
A Yes, he is.
THE COURT:

Just one minute. Please state for me the function

of that board.

A Your Honor, the function of that board is to grant

variances. |

an ait |
Zoning laws?

A Well, we have a zoning commission, too, that acts on

property of two acre plots and larger, but say you have a
plot that was smaller than two acres and you wanted to get a
special exception to put a special business or expand your
house beyond the normal limits or something like this, you

would come before this board of adjustment and ask for an

exception and they hear all of these cases and either grant

or deny your request.
THE COURT:

—-—- as

.. 815

oe

833

Mr. Blacksher and Mr. Arendall, for quick reference
for study in the future, if there is no objection, I am going
to make some pencil notations on the Exhibit, for instance,
like board of adjustments set up by State law. Any objection
to me doing that?

MR. ARENDALL:

No, sir.
MR. BLACKSHER:

No, sir.
THE COURT:

Let the record show that any notes on here will be
made by me in pencil and if the attorneys have any objections
when it is over with, I will hear from you. Go ahead.

MR. ARENDALL:

Mr. Mims, the board of adjustment would also handle,
would it not, what are called applications for exceptions
from zoning ordinances as, for example, when jacinto port
wanted to put the fragnation plant out there on the jacinto
port property. They had to go to the board of adjustment

to get a so called exception “rom the zoning, ordinance, did

they not?
A I am sure this is correct.
Q The next on the list if the air conditioning board.

Is that appointed by the City, iteelf? -

316 *-

ee — - = =

|

| aes ne __ 835
Serer | 834

Wait a minute. I didn't get the function of that
A Yes. But there are some requirements that -- I don' board.

have the ordinance in front of me. There are some specific A That board, as DBD F fF

in the United States.
Q Mr. Mims, I have references here to three different
organizations, the names of which appear to me to be somewhat
similar.

We have been talking about the Neighborhood
Improvement Council that is headed by Mr. Joe Locke. There
is a community service group, is there not?

A Well, no.. There may be a service community group,

but you may have that confused with a program that I
instituted a number of years ago that I call community

service meetings.
ee. =i

Q What is that?

A Well, this is a program whereby I go into the
neighborhoods with members of my staff, primarily, and on

occasion we take someone répresenting the police and
fire department and the parks department and other depart- |
ments, but primarily people from public works and we go |
into the commmities and have a meeting at a school or parks
building or community building, somewhere centrally located |
as we could in the community and invite the public to these
meetings and try to get input from the public and then go
back and try to respond as rapidly as we can to the requests
of the people. |
Q What is the difference between the neighborhood |
improvement council and your community service meetings or
do they just overlap?

A Well, they could overlap, but the neighborhood

improvement meetings are -- they deal primarily with the

upgrading of the homes, of the residences in a given area
where the community service meetings deal mostly with the |
needs from a public works standpoint. |

In other words, the drainage problems, the lighting |
problems, the street problems, sanitation services and things

like this. What I was trying to do when I initiated this

7
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; | | ae (lt

because it has been my sincere desire all along to meet the
need of this commmity regardless of who they are or where
they live. The only way to know the needs is to get out
in the commumity and hear from the people.

The television people and more specifically, WKRG,
for a period of a year or two, went to everyone of these
meetings and taped these meetings and played a portion of
the meetings back at a later date and they were not only
viewed, -- the programs were viewed by the whole commmnity.
In other words, if we met in Toulminville, for instance,
then the next Sunday or whatever, the whole area could see
that we had had a meeting. And I might say, speaking of che
Toulminvill® meeting, if I might, we have a swimming pool

at Gorgas Park today and it is solely because of the idea “4

was brought up at one of these commmity service organizati
meetings and I came back to the City Commission with the
idea and the City Commission approved it and, today, the
kids are out there swimming this afternoon because of that.
Q Do you have these meetings, then, in the black areas
as well as in the white?

A Yes. It has been my policy to have them in every
area of the City. In fact, we took the old ward map and
tried to put about three wards together and have a meeting

in an area that would cover about three wards and then the

.. AF

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ward map was changed and so we quit using the old ward map |

and now we just go to different areas.

Last week I made Trinity Episcopal Church in an
area called the Chapman Improvement area. Three or four |
weeks ago I met with a group out in the Carver Court area.
Q That is a black area?

A Which was a predominantly black area and then, a |
few weeks prior to that, we met with another group -- I will
have to get my records to tell you where I have been over |

the last months, but we have periodic meetings out in the |

community with the people and, in addition to that, I make |
it a point to ride in these communities myself to know what |
is going on. |
Q As long as I am asking you about things with somewhat
similar names, what is the community development program? |
A Well, the commmity development program of the

City of Mobile is certainly not to be confused with another

organization known as the community development project.

We are talking about now the City of Mobile's commmity |
development progran. |

This is a program set up and we have a committee
called the commmity development committee to make improve- |
ments in the communities throughout Mobile, taking advantage

——————————— ee

802

of Federal funds.

Now, these Federal Funds, at one time, were destgnaqes.

You would get so many millions of dollars for this and so
many for that. Congress changed all of that and now they
send the money dow in a block, one lump sum, and then we,
as public local officials, have to make a decision on where
these monies are to be spent.

Now, in order for us to set priorities as three
elected commissioners, we have established this community
development committee that holds meetings in the various
neighborhoods and we have set some priorities on these

funds. So, this is what the community development program

is.

Q That is the program that is headed by Mr. Barnett,
is it not?

A He is one of the members of the committee. I think
Jimmy Alexander may be is the chairman.

Q The Housing Board man?

A Yes.

What we did, if I might add, we put the planner,
Mitch Barnett, the public words director, the Housing
Authority Executive Director, the finance director, as well
as the building inspection department head on this
committee.

=—

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- A i

We felt like we had a cross section of the people |

who were going to actually get the work done once we initiated

it. These people are going to be held to be responsible |
for carrying out these projects. |

I am sure you have the map showing where all of |
these projects are and where this money is going to be |
spent and I am sure that will be introduced later on during,
this trial. |
Q All right. I think I left out here and let's go
back to it.

I believe we are now on the plumbers examining |
board. |
THE COURT:

Just a minute. Let me ask him a question.

With reference to this neighborhood improvement
council, I understand there is some ordinance or regulation

or something in a city with reference to requiring people --

with reference to their homes to keep them in a certain

state of repair and painted; is that correct?
A This is correct.
THE COURT:

Now, if that is correct, then the question I want |

to ask you is this neighborhood improvement council related

to those matters?

_ d46°

A Yes, it does, your Honor.
MR. ARENDALL : |

The plumbers examining board. I will ask you if
these qualifications sound about right. The chief plumbing
inspector, one master plumber, a member of the mechanical
contractor's association, one master plumber, a member of
the master plumber's association, one journeyman plumber and

one representative of the public?

A This sounds correct.

Q And this is with reference to the licensing of
plumbers?

A This is right.

Q The recreation advisory board. I see from Exhibit

64 that members of that board's term expired in 1974 and
they were not re-appointed. Whai was the purpose of that
board and what was the thinking about not re-appointing it?
A If my memory serves me correctly, the Commissioner
in charge of recreation, at that time, proposed this
advisory board and if I am not mistakened, he recommended
these names to the City Commission and we appointed them
and they were to help him with Wis recreation program. Now,
I did not come in contact with these people.

Q So, you think I had better ask Mr. Greenough about

that?

.. B47 .

———

I think you had better asked Mr. Bailey about that.
Mr. Bailey was the one?
Yes, sir.

The South Alabama regional planning commission?

> BD F> DB >

The South Alabama regional planning commission is
what it says it is. It is a regional planning commission.
It is a three county operation and local officials, as well
as appointed officials, serve on the regional planning
commission and every application for Federal funding

comes through this regional planning commission.

Now, what we have done, as far as the City of
Mobile's government is concerned, we have appointed members
of our regular City planning commission to this commission
and, of course, you see the number there.

It says one black and six total members, but there
are many blacks who serve on the South Alabama regional
planning commission from the other cities and from the
other counties that are represented on this commission.

THE COURT:

Total members of Mobile, though, is six; is that

A This is correct, your Honor.
MR. ARENDALL:
I believe I have already gsked you about the board

346

a

of water and sewer commissioners.

Now, the employees insurance advisory board.
A Thie board was set up to help the City Commissioner
select the right kind of insurance program for our
employees. We selected persons from the various department?
to serve on this board and to screen all insurance programs
before these programs are presented to the City Commission
for approval. '

For instance, if xyz company were to come to my
office this afternoon and say, look, we have a fantastic
plan and it is going to cost three dollars a month and
blah blah blah, and we want to put it on payroll deduction
and we would send this xyz company before this board and
let this board screen them and then if the board, represent ing
all of the employees, thought that this was a fantastic
deal and they wanted it and they would bring it to the City
Commission and say we think this is great and we know these
people can get more than the amount required. We have to have
three hundred before we put anything on payroll deductions.
And we say, okay. The committee approved it. You go out
and get your three hundred and dom't come back until you

have your three hundred, because we are not going to put

it on payroll deduction.
THE COURT:

866 {-

I lost out on the board of water and sewer
commissioners.
MR. ARENDALL :

I guess we can come back to that, Judge. This is the
organization established under state law, which runs sani-
tary sewer and water for the city and, indeed, some outlying
areas, doesn't it?

A This is correct. I might add, in addition to the
housing board, this is, without a doubt, one of the most
important boards that we have, because every family in the
City of Mobile is affected by this board and we could have one
black gentleman on this board.

THE COURT:

Although it is established by state law, does the
City make the appointments?
A Yes, sir. We make the appointments.
THE.-COURT:

All right.
MR. ARENDALL:

This is the board that Mr. Von Sprecken is chief
career man on; isn't it?

A That's right. He is the superintendent of the water |

and sewer board.

MR. ARENDALL:
We expect to have him here, Judge.
All right. The next one is Mobile County Hospital

| Board and I have some notation on my copy of this Exhibit --

| I am not sure it is on the original. It looks like your
typing and it says "Owned by University of South Alabama.
| City has no connection” .

A I am not sure that this board even functions any

longer. You know, we turned the hospital over to the

university and they operate it. We have no connection with

it any longer.

Q I see. Frank S. Keeler Memorial Hospital?

A I think they are out of business, also.

Q The Arts Hall of Fame committee. Do you know what
that is?

A Well, it looks like one member and I am not sure who

|

that is unless it is the recreation commissioner.

Q See if this sounds like a 1971 state act under which
persons are to be elected to the State Arts Hall of Fame and

must have background in arts and the City Commissioner has

‘appointed a representative of the Mobile Art Gallery Board;

that another one of these industrial revenue bonds?

a Yes. It is strictly a financing thing.
Q And the educational board?
A The educational board, no doubt here, is the group

of employees that we have that screens the applicants for
furthering their education. In other words, we try to
co-operate with our employees as much as we can so that they
might further their education.

In fact, the City Commission pays a portion of
employees tuition, say, at the University and, say, patrolman
Jones wanted to go to school at night and take up criminal
law, or whatever, and he would make his application to the
City Commission through this educational board and the board
then would screen this applicant and make sure he is sincere
in what he is trying to do and we have requirements that you

have to stay with the City "x" number of years. I think it is

three years after you get your degree or after you use this
money or else you have to refund the money, but these boards
screen these employees.

Q Members of that board are largely employees of the
City, members of the public, or what type of persons?

does that sound about right? A As I recall it, they are employees, department heads,

| :

A It sounds about right to me. and maybe someone from the personnel board on here.

A The next is Public Education Building authority. Is Q Now, Mr. Mims, there has been a lot of testimony in
_ 351 352

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444.»
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meeting in a given neighborhood and so, I say without any
hesitation, that the community service meetings have been
very beneficial to the people of Mobile and they have allowed
the establishment of a relationship or. rapport between the
people and the city government that was sorely needed here.

Q You testified that you have been to meetings in black

areas , too?

A Oh, absolutely.
Q Is that what you said in your book, Mr. Mims?
A Well, I think you are referring to some meetings that

were held during the heighth of racial trouble here in our
city and I happened to have a copy of the book right here and
I can quote you page and chapter where Mr. Outlaw and

Mr. Langan, who was revered by the blacks and I went to the

and priests and black leaders from all over the place who

© was supposed to be the great hero for black people, they
called him just as many names as they did me and so, in that

ind of a situation, at that particular time, we did not go
k into any commmities during those months when Beasley

s marching in the streets and Rap Brown and Stokley Carmichael

were making so much noise over the country and we had fire

bombings and there were times when I had to have my house

Davis Avenue community ceater and we had ministers and preachers

booed, us and called us all kinds of names and called Mr. Langan,

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guarded at night because of threats.

We did not go back after we were treated so rudely.
| tabedy but a crazy person would go back after they treated us
|like they did. I will be frank with you about that.

Q Weil, there were a lot of people that stayed right
there, the people that reside on Davis Avenue, right?

A Sir, I don't know.

THE COURT:

I think we are beating a dead horse here. There were |
black people undoubtedly who stayed and it was a time of —
strife is his point.

MR. BLACKSHER :

You were going to quote page and verse?
A Well, I had heard you were going to call me a racist,
because of my book.
THE COURT:

Let's don't get into an argument.
MR. BLACKSHER :

You heard what?
THE COURT:
Let's don't get into an argument. If you want to refqr
to some page, go ahead.
A Your Honor, I was going to refer to the incident wherq
we went to Davis Avenue and were treated rudely and it is in

Tha te

ares

my book.
THE COURT:
Did you want him to........
MR. BLACKSHER:
The name of the book is "For Christ and Country", by

Lambert C. Mims and published in 1969; is that right?
A ‘Yes.
Q On page sixty-one -- well, it starts on page sixty
and you talk about going into the various communities and one
of the first communities we visited we found a disturbing
situation. In a4ition to the people of the neighborhood who
came to the meeting there was a large number of outsiders.....
THE COURT:

Mr. Blacksher, I really don't see any reason to that
It is like asking a black person to go to some extremist white
meeting at a time of strife. I don't think that will
particularly help us,
MR. BLACKSHER:

The book doesn't indicate they are extremists.
me read from his book.
THE COURT:

The question is, you may offer testimony on what

Let

he says was his ensuing conduct and whether it was safe to go

back or not. We all know there was a time back in the sixties

|

of extreme strife in this coustry and thank goodness it is
not expressing itself in those over actions nov.
And I think we are getting off into something that

is encouraging arguments, so forth and so on.
MR. BLACKSHER:

Well, for whatever impeachment value, I will
introduce a copy of this.
THE COURT:
Go ahead, Mr. Blacksher.
MR. BLACKSHER :
“Some were from other parts of the City and some :

You may do as you wish.

were from far away. Most of these were militant blacks, but

man y were clergymen, protes*ant ministers, catholic priests

to intimidate their City fathers.
seen such abuse of public officials.

neighborhood meetings.
Recently I was asked, during a television news

Never in my life have I
We discontinued the

erence, whether we were going to resume these meetings.

made the statement that I do not intend to go back to a
ting like that, again. To be abused and harrassed by
litant irresponsibles whose aim, as far as some of us could
termine, is simply to disrupt the whole City. I do not

lieve that the people who elected us to the City Commission

and nuns. For nearly three hours these people accused and rind

—

. 447

_ 448)

‘tm War

a ell a

would endure this kind of thing and neither will we."

And by the people that elected you, Mr. Mims, I
take it you were talking about the people in the suburbs?

A Well, I am talking about the City electorate, as a

whole. I don't think any sane person, as I said a moment ago
would go back and willingly present himself for this kind of

persecution and this kind of ridicule.

These paragraphs you have read, or this paragraph rel
are lifting out of this book that has many, many paragraphs
that are all together different from this that talks about
harmony that we have and all the good we are doing in the
community. You are lifting from this book, for Christ and
Country, which has a lot of good things in it. You are L1teta
this out of context. This did not mean ...... °

THE COURT:

I hate to keep pursuing it. I want to make a

recor.

We recognized that Lyndon Johnson had to limit his

visitations during those periods of strife and, for a period |

pf time, according to the news reports, his main appearances
e at military bases and so forth. Let's get on to ——"

a productive, gentlemen.

Q Well, let's talk about plumbers, Mr. Mims. Item

thirty-seven, Plumber's Examining Board. No blacks have ever

9)

been appointed to that board.

Can you explain why?
A According to the, as I understand it, ordinance,
the people on this board would be people who know something
about plumbing. For instance, I would not be very good on
this board because I don't know much about plumbing.
So, as I understand it, these people on this board

examine applicants for plumbers’ licenses and so we have

know of a black master plumber in the City of Mobile. Now,
there may be some. I do now know personally a black master

plumber, for instance.

Q What about the recreation advisory board, item
thirty-eight. There is one black person out of twenty-two?

A Hasn't that board already served its time and isn't
it now non-existent?

Q My notes indicate that it was proposed by

. Bailey. They were not reappointed in 1974 and that Mr.
ecommended all the names and you want Mr. Bailey to take all
| f the responsibility for it; is that it? P
A Well, sir, I don't recall having made one appoint-
ment to this board, personally. I concurred with Mr. Bailey's
recommendations at the time, I am sure, but I don't recall
personally making one of these appointments and I couldn't

appointed, in accordance with the ordinance. I do not persoahy

ley

—_

. 449)

_ 450

993

because of deaths and because of vacancies and other

tell you, to save my life, who was on it. commissioners would feel that this was their appointment and

Q Well, you certainly will agree, wouldn't you, that they have, therefore, replaced these people as they vacated

there are many more blacks than indicated by this representa- the position and I can claim only Mr. Moore, who served as

tion that are indicated in recreation in the City? chairman, and I think does a fantastic job as chairman.

A I certainly do. The black people certainly utilize MR. ARENDALL :

‘the recreational facilities as much as anyone else in the Mr. Blacksher I will call your attention that you

community, but this is something Mr. Bailey brought up. What remember that Bishop Phillips was formerly a member of that

reason he wanted it for, I really do not know, and I could not beard. -

recall. I am sure I concurred in it. I don't know whether MR. BLACKSHER: |

the records shows I voted for it or not. It takes two to make Se Medes ous of enehiee.

a majority on a three man tean. MR. ARENDALL :

Q South Alabama Regional Planning Commission, item i

number thirty-nine. This commission has the same members, _ couRT:

‘the same terms as the Mobile Planning Commission; is that So that should be one over in the prior black member's

ees column?

A This is right. MR. BLACKSHER:

ae The Board of Water and Sewer Commissioners, item All right. Mr. Mims, skip down to item forty-six,

forty. One black out of twelve over the years. educational board. I understand your direct testimony to say

ee ee that this was a board furthering the employees’ education.

blacks on that board, Mr. Mime? I presume you mean the employees of the City of Mobile?

A Well, I think the blacks and the whites have suffi- | A As I underwtand this board, there are se many
_|jc¢ient representation. As I said yesterday I have made one boards here that this could be some other board to get funds

appointment to that board, Mr. Moore, and somehow it was pane ialion. I do not know, but as I understand it, this is

worked around where he was the only one I can lay claim to, ~~ 452+

1 sa

995

access of particular segments of the community to participa-

tion in the government,
THE COURT:

the board whereby City employees are screened, those who
want to further their education, end who are seeking City
funde for their tuition.

Q And this board is made up of department heads of
the City of Mobile?

I asked you a question. Do you contend that must

be on a quota basis?

! MR. BLACKSHER:
A As I understand it. I do not have that list before

Absolutely not. I do not contend, over e large
me.
| number of boards or a large -- there has to be weight given
Q And one member elected at large? ceo ge ght ¢
A If that is what the epdinance says. . “a , icine
|

THE COURT
Q Or appointed from among the citizenary, I should p .
| ; Let me make this observation. I cannot address
say
ls —_ myself, in the opinion, too many details. On such things
la Z gucee thet eaplaine wy = Ae an Bhese an then as air conditioning boards, architectural review boards,
=a wane —- = electrical examiners, plumbing examining boards -- and I note
lA Sow cnké 68, Bo thee 6 question? that counsel for Plaintiffs are all whites. In Title 7 cases,
= and I think I should take somewhat judicial knowledge of
COURT:

. Mr. Blacksher, let me see if I can get the thrust of evidence that has come to the Court on these matters that

statistics have been offered to show that in skilled places,
and we know somewhat, for instance about lawyers, that there

your questioning. Let's see what your contentions are.

Is it your contention that there should be a pro-

i
rata membership on the boards of whites and blacks or what is s a market lack of blacks who are attorneys and a marked lack

onaiaiiinns lof blacks who are in skilled positions.
your c¢

MR. BLACKSHER:
Your Honor, our contention is that responsiveness in

Now, that may address itself to the whole structure
of how it came about, but I don't think it addresses itself
to people placed on a certain number of these boards. I only

the contexts of the voting rights cases has to do with the

| - 453 | | _. 454>

i}
i}

speak with reference to those, though, that call for some
special talent in placing people on boards. I think we have
to be cognizant of where there ate special talents that there
must be some pool from which they can reasonably be drawn.

I will give you an opportunity to say anything about those
remarks that you desire,

MR. BLACKSHER:

All I would say, your Honor, is that in every case
there has been no evidence that there are not blacks neverthe-~
less available for these occupations. The point of fact is
most of these boards-where some special skill is required, the
City Commission adopts the recommendations made by private
industry.

THE COURT:

Wouldn't the same thing apply to you? There are
some skilled black lawyers. Why aren't they here at your
table?

MR. BLACKSHER:

I don't know how to answer that.

They very seldom appear in these cases. You are t
lead cownsel in this case, and, in most of these cases you ar
lead counsel. Why there may be some, you have to look at it
overall and then we run into a very difficult area. Like I

_

say there may be, so far as the structure and how these things
came about, that is one thing, but I don's think those things
address itself to this Court in this case.

MR. BLACKSHER:

a situation where the entire citizenary has to depend on these!
particular boards and agencies for their livelihood.
THE COURT:

lumbers where there are qualified black plumbers or electri-
ians, a responsive government would make some effort to see
hat they are represented on these boards.

Well,another point we would make, your Honor, in

I am not talking about the other boards. These that
re special skills are those to which I refer.
. BLACKSHER :
Yes. Those boards pass on applications for things
ike licenses and permits.
COURT :

Wel. would you contend that you should put a person
has no knowledge in that position just because they are
lack or would you fly in an airplane with a pilot because he
® black and not qualified?

. BLACKSHER:
I would say, in the light of testimony of Mr. Randolph,
th respect to difficulties for blacks getting permits to be

_ 455

THE COURT:
MR. ARENDALL:
If your Honor please, I don't recall any testimony

being given as to mistreatment by any of these boards.

No, let's don't engage in that kind of answer.
A Well, we completed one not too long ago in
Toulminville. We have one underway in one of your law firms'

THE COURT:
| communities at Laurel and Devitt. We have a saltwater branch

off of Dauphin Island Parkway. We have completed a two

| Go ahead. I will let you gentlemen make further

statements. Like I say, this is ay only forum to make such

| llion dollar project called the Southern Drain in the
(comments and make my views known. It is impossible to go pro
| southern part of the City here.

‘into details on any decree, whichever way the case goes, one
| ther I have a list of projects that are being built now.
way or- the o : |

I usually carry a list in my pocket so I will know where
MR. BLACKSHER:

le are working and big stickney, for instance, has been
Mr. Mims, I would like to talk about your testimony is
y aud that is the one I just referred to, Saltwater

concerning the master drainage project. You say that began
in 1972 and was approved or what?
A If my memory serves me correctly, it was presented
by the public worke comissioner te the board of commissioners
in 1972 and was improved and we began to try to program funds
for this massive drainage progren.

ranch.

Here is community development project and here is
| in the Texas Street area. The Zeigler Boulevard culvert.
just awarded a contract this morning at seven-thirty,
identally, when we met for conference. Alba Club Road,

Q What is it going to accomplish? | ld Road -- they are all over the city. Icehouse Branch,
A Well, it is going to alleviate flooding and correct laridge Road, Bolton Branch, Broad Street widening and
t.
erosion problems in many #ceas of the city. rainage projec
Q What work is being dome, now? Is it all being done Is this master plan spelled out in one document
’

? ,
by engineers somewhere in an office?

Well, Mr. Blacksher, I would like for you to get Yes. We have a brochure or folder or master dvetnegp
A , . ’
| gram. We have some projects that are being done on master

‘in a car with me and I will drive you over the City.

drainage and some prajects being done under capital projects

capital improvement funds and under the community develop-
t funds. So, we have four major funds that we are talking
t, plus we do « lot of drainage work out of the operating
et through the regular public works forces.
What about the Three Mile Creek drainage project,

Me. Mims? What is happening on that?
Well, I testified earlier that we had met with the

of Engineers and because the Three Mile Creek runs into
bile River and that is part of the Tennessee-Tombigbee
ystem, we are going to be able to get assistance from the
of Engineers and from the Federal government in the
t of this major stream that runs all the way across
he city from the western city limits all the way to the
stern city limits, you might say, or to the Mobile River.
s is a major drainage system and it will be improved and

nd we have a regular maintenance program of Three Mile Creek

And we plan to make other improvements as we receive the

recommendations from the Corp of Engineers.

eee

All right. Let's take a fifteen minute break.

(RECESS)

s being improved. We have dredged it on a number of occasions

| THE COURT :
| All right. You may proceed.
MR. BLACKSHER:

Before we get back to drainage, Mr. Mims, I wanted
to say, for the record, that with reference to the remarks
you said earlier -- I mean, this sincerely, I am not trying
to make you out a racist. I think the Court understands
what we are trying to show, what the Plaintiffs are trying
to establish, that white people who live in a different

culture from black people who live in different meighborhoods
have difficulty relating and responding to problems of black
people and that is all I am trying to demonstrate and I
wanted to make sure you understood that.
THE COURT:

Let me make these remarks in relation to what I
said about the boards and what census figures show about
black skilled workers. I do not mean for the City

The courts frequently required affirmative action to recruit
co people. So there won't be any misunderstanding, I was
just probing the Plaintiff's position and then there were °
some remarks that I indicated that I wanted to make, because
pete is my only forum. Go ahead.

MR. BLACKSHER:

ei to take from that, that they don't have any duty.

459

dae oss.

1003
Gpcemmen

Q Is that a white community, Shadowgay?

We were talking about the master drainage project. A Yes
I wanted to ask you, particularly, about the fhree Mile Q Tonlours is a changing commmity?
Creek drainage project, Mr. Mims, A It has changed, is my understanding.

You said there were three water sheds in Mobile; Q It is now a majority black?
Three Mile Creek, Dog River and one other, right? A It is now changing. I don't know what the percentage
. | was Seashe Giver, would be. As I indicated earlier, this is a major watershed
Q What is going to happen -- what kind of work are you

or drainage easement and a great portion of the water that

going to do to make the Three Mile drainage project en adequate falls in the City of Mobile, sooner or later, comes out of

drainage service for the commmity it serves like I saw it Three Mile Creek up here on Three Mile Creek north of the

starts over in west Mobile. The complaints we have heard docks. The Corp of Engineers, in their study, will present

to date have been from Trinity Gardens, Crichton, right down evidence as to certain culverts that need to be replaced or

on Davis Avenue where the Roger Williams project are all
frequently flooded and what other areas?

certain bridges that need to be replaced that might be causing

an obstruction, things such as this.

THE COURT: It is very doubtful that the Corp of Engineers would

Just one moment. Did I leave something out that ‘ever recommend that Three Mile Creek be paved from one end to

you wanted to comment on? the other. You know, there is just some things you don't do.

A Well, let me say this. The area that has complained We have had recommendations from some citizens, both white

the most is in the vicinity of Stanton Road and Tonlours and
Shadowgay area. They have had more flooding and more couplaints
in this area than any other area along Three Mile Creek since
I have been in office.

and black that we, you know, pave Three Mile Creek or put it
under ground or put it in a culvert and things such as this
that are absolutely not feasible. So, we are saying that

‘when the Corp of Engineers presents its recommendations to the

I know, for a fact, that water has gott int -
gee —— - City and hopefully, at that time, we will get some Federal

houses al the ar f Shadowgay, which is t off of
— viailins of . ait ie funding, because the Corp is rsendunhmbetanmaies

Stanton Road.

—_

AGL: . Ae 4

sree tat wed te svenry te yore se
drainage. It will not necessarily mean it will be a paved
improyement or a covered improvement or some exotic looking
drainage system. It may still be a hundred years from now
an open creek. The idea is to provide drainage to keep areas
from flooding. :

Q | Do I understand that you, at the present time, do
not know for sure what you are going to do about the overall
Three Mile Creek drainage project.
on something from the Corp?

A As far ae Three Mile Creek itself is concerned,
we are making improvements to various tributaries going into
Three Mile Creek like the big Stickney, the little Stickney,
the Trinity Gardens Drainage, much of it will go into Three
Mile Creek.

You are still waiting

Q What ere you doing in Trinity Gardens right now?
A That is included in the community development
that will be, I am sure, presented later in this trial
by some of our staff people. The whole program will be
presented, but we have plans to try to drain Trinity Gardens.
gach MAST igpeenglinca agama einen
to do these low many years.

Those are still in the planning stage, the drainage
jects for Trinity Gardens?

. 463

7 _ Well, I consider anything in the planning stage
until you start turning the earth. But we do have definite

— ——____—__

plans and, as I said, these will be presented by technical
people and members of our staff later on in this trial, I

am sure.

Q Can you give the residents of Trinity Gardens and
Crichton some word about when the drainage problems will be
solved for their neighborhood or will be improved?

a Well, of course, we have been in the process of

making improvements all along. All improvements are not
necessarily from capital expenditures. Many improvements are

made from a maintenance standpoint and we have, from time to
time, made corrections here and yonder with our local public
works crews. For someone to say that we have not improved
the drainage in Crichton and Trinity Gardens I think would
be a misstatement. It has been improved.

The first time I went to Trinity Gardens you almost
had to fly over the area, to be frank with you. It is
80 low. We have made improvements.

We have not reached utopia there, but we do have
definite concrete plans and hopefully some of this work will
be put under contract in the very near future.

As I said, I do not have the community development

program before me. Neither do I have the master drainage

_ AGG:

Behe - tet

program, but all of this has been programmed.

Q Will the community development program that will
have a time table in it that will answer my question?

A ‘Yes. With appropriate maps and everything.

Q Have you calculated and will we be presented

evidence on how much money has been spent by the City of
Mobile on the Three Mile Creek drainage project and the other
drainage projects. |

MR. ARENDALL :

Mr. Blacksher, the answer to that question is that
we have never asked anybody to compile an itemization of
expenditures related directly to Three Mile Creek, but we wil]
have the staff people to give you the details about what is
projected for it.

MR. BLACKSHER:

The reason I asked Mr. Mims, of course, is the

little we have to go on -- this October, 1973 newspaper

is your area, was allocated some eight hundred and ninety-

eight thousand dollars for Three Mile Creek area drainage

| programs; four hundred and sixty-two thousand dollars for

downtown area drainage program and some nine hundred and

forty-nine thousand for the Dog River area drainage program.
It is things like this that have given rise to the

article that indicates that the public works department, whic

question, in our minds, about where most of the money is being
spent. Do you see the Dog River project or the Dog River
drainage problems as being more difficult to solve or warranting
more expenditures of money than the Three Mile Creek project?
A Well, the reason that some of these projects moved
ahead faster than others was because some of the plans were
more eouplete, at that time. Now, I don't have that article
in front of me, but we run into all kinds of problems as

you start planning and designing, not only drainage projects,
but road projects or anything else.

You rum into rights-of-way problems. You run tnto
things that sometimes are beyond your control and so if you
have "x" number of millions of dollars allocated for each
year's program you go ahead with the projects as you have,
you might say on the shelf, the design and everything you have
on the shelf, and you go ahead with it.

Now, in that particular instance, apparently the
plans by the Volkert Company, now, they handle the Dog River
drainage easement or watershed. Apparently those plans were
ready to roll and so we proceeded. That does, not mean that
the Three Mile Creek watershed is taking any lesser priority.
It may mean that conversa, who is the engineer on that water-
shed, may not have had their plans ready or there might have
been easement problems.

. 465

466

1009

We find a lot of people are quick to complain, but
when you go out to try to get an inch of their land to get
the improvements on and then you have to take them to Court,

too.

Q Have you been to Court over the Three Mile drainage
project?

A I cannét say specifically, but I do know on many,

many of these projects we have problems after we have worked
hard to try to get the money allocated and after we have the
plans prepared and after we have the light on green and ready
to go and then we run head in to property owners who do not
want to co-operate, as far as the right-of-way is concerned.
“That is a problem not only in black areas, but in white areas
in every area of the community.
Q You don't know whether they have more problems with
that in the Three Mile Creek area than the Dog River area?

ee No. I can't answer that,

Q Do you know specifically why the Dog River plans
were advanced more quickly than the Three Mile Creek plans?
A I just tried to emplain that. We have three

engineers, Converse cn Three Mile Creek, Pollyengineering on
the dewntown river system and David Volkert and Associates

on the Dog River project or system and all three of these
engineering companies are studying their watersheds and their

| prepared plans on these various projects related to those

watersheds and some plans are more advanced than others.
So, that is the best I can answer that question.
THE COURT:
I take it your answer to be the Dog River plans wer
developed earlier than the Three Mile Creek plans?

A I would say so, your Honor.
THE COURT:
All right.
a Let me say, for the record, if I may, that there

certainly has been no reason on the part of the public works
commissioner or the city commission to hold back on Three
Mile Creek watershed, because it does affect a huge area of
our city and it is our desire to try to get all of these
projects done as quickly as possible.

between now and the first day of August, but it is just a lot
|°* work involved as our people will try to show you, I am
sure.

While we were talking about Trinity Gardens in the
dizvect testimony, you recall the point being made that a
million dollars being spent in the Trinity Garden area and
twenty-seven thousand dollars in collected taxes and I want

Tt wish that I could snap my finger and do all of them

467

. 468

a ae

1010

to clarify this point, however. Do property taxes provide
a very large share of the City of Mobile revenue income from

its citizens?

A ‘Net necessarily, no.

Q In fact, most of the revenues of the City of

Mobile comes from other kinds of taxes; isn't that correct?

A Well, calee tax would be cur main courses of revenue}
Q And, of course, there ig no way for you to know

how much of that was attributed by residents of Trinity
Gardens?
A Well, I don't think anyone, even the best of
experts, could tell you exactly how much money came out of
Trinity Gardens.
Q I agree with that, With reepect to street paving,
now, we have these -- this information that was turned over
to us by your people, a Mr. Chapman, which is Exhibit 74 and
whioh we have summarized in Exhibit 75 and when we intro-
duced it, Mr, Arendall made the point that a number of some of
the streets are paved by private developers and I think you
re-affirmed that on your direct testimony.
Have you sorted out the number or miles of streets
that were paved by private developers as opposed to by those
that were paved by the City of Mobile?
- No. I have not and I have not seen your Exhibit.

469

MR. ARENDALL:

Mr. Blacksher, we expect to put Mr. Summerall on
who knows whatever there is to know about that. He is the
paving man.

MR. BLACKSHER:

You did testify about resurfacing, Mr. Mims, didn't

you? I think you said resurfacing is not assessed to the

property owners?
A“ Resurfacing is out of the general fund budget.
Q This Exhibit by Mr. Chapman says, at the botton,

that the information contained herein includes the miles of
| gutters, paving and alvo includes resurfacing of streets that
was done by the city both before and after 1970, but you are
not familiar with this Exhibit and you haven't apprised yourself
of exactly how many miles have been developed, repaved or
resurfaced in the various neighborhoods?
A Well, I am not familiar with your Exhibit. I say
emphatically we do not charge for resurfacing.

Now, on a street like Lincoln Street, which was

a hard surfaced paved street, in my opinion, testimony previ
in this Court indicated that that person did not think it
was paved, but it was paved, as far as I am concerned.

Row, we axe going out end tearing up 6 paved otrect
and we are putting down underground drainage and curb and

~~ =
/~ -
-
-

eee
_

gutters and that is an assesement program. If we go dow
St. Joseph here on Dauphin Street or Gill Road or Dogwood
Lane or whatever ic might be, we resurface the street at no
cost whatecever to the property owners. It comes out of the
general fund, our operating budget of the City of Mobile or
capital outlay from the capital budget for the purpose of
re-surfacing. There is no assessment.

I don't know what ir. Chapman has said there. I
haven't seen that. If he said we are charing for re-surfacing
he is in error.

Q Why couldn't you re-surface the Lincoln Street?
af Well, sir, I have tried to say all the time that
Lincoln Street was a surfaced street. It had a hard surface.
It was a paved street and .......++.

Q I am asking if it was paved why couldn't you just
re-surface it?

A it Because there were a drainage problem. This was
a complaint that people had built down on the lower side of
the street and I am very familiar with Lincoln Street. I
have been there many times. On the north side of the
street the houses were built in many cases lower than the
crown of the paved Lincoln Street. veins, ie wheee weet
go off of Lincoln Street down into the yards and under the

houses and, in one case, the person who was complaining had

a big long limousine type of an automobile and we suggested
we put a curb up there or berm to keep the water from going
into his yard and that would affect him from getting in and
out of his driveway. When they came to the place where they
were willing to pay part of the construction costs of what
you might say is a new street and that is what is going to be
when they finish, then we proceeded with the project. So, I
am sure, over a period of years, Lincoln Street was re-
surfaced.

In fact, I am positive that Lincoln had a new
surface put on it, from time to time, over the years.
Q Concerning this assessment question, how is it
that you know until recently the residents weren't willing
to bear the assessment?
a Well, sir, I had met with « Reverand Smith on many
occasions. In fact, in 1965, prior to my first election, I
sat on Reverand Smith's porch and aleo he has indicated to
the contrary, but I promised him I would look into it and
I did look into it and I had looked into it a number of times
and had talked to Reverand Smith on a number of o¢easions and
Q And Reverand Smith toid you that people would not
bear the assessment?

Reverend Smith, to the best of my recollection, forqver

A

re |

err ors ”

—

made demands. Number one, that he was a taxpayer, which I
understood quite well; and, number two, the City ought to
|| come out there and do something about his problem and ay
contention was that we ought to be doing something about the
dirt streets and the unimproved areas of the city first and
then, as money and resources were available and as people

1015

wanted to participate, then try to correct some of these
problems of long standing and so it was not until about a
ago or whatever dates the documents show that they agreed to
pay an assessment on Lincoln Street and it was, at that time,
that the City Commission moved forward with the project
taking two-thirds of the money out of the City treasury and
one-third of the money will come back from the project. Over
a ten year period, we will get one-third of it back from the
property owners,

It was not until they expressed a desire to share
in the cost of it that we went ahead with the project.
Q So the enewer to my question was no?
7 Well, I don't know what the question was now.
MR, BLACKSHER:

Would you read it back?
THE COURT:

He wanted to know back in the beginning whether or
not he refutes or the property owners refused to be assessed.

T —F73

a Your Honor, they did not indicate that they would
be willing to pay.
THE COURT:

Did they indicate that they wouldn't?

A That they would not pay?
THE COURT:
Yes.
a They did not indicate that they would pay. It was

| more © demand that we come out end do something, because he
was a taxpayer and the most vocal one was Reverand Smith.
‘eas

In those discussions, did you inform them of the
necessity of property assessments?
A I could not say, under oath, your Honor, that look
you are going to have pay so much a foot, but it was under-
stood that everyone paid an assessment on street improvements

I am sure that was during our comments.
THE COURT:

When you say everybody understood, is that a matter
of common knowledge or from your discussions, he could not
fail to understand it?

A I think from our discussions he couldn't fail to
understand it. Somebody had to pay for it.

874

—_—eeS ll —

1016

1
|

|

— "

THE COURT:

No, no. Somebody having to pay it and whether a
citisen has to pay it are two different things. Did you tell
him there was « property assesenent?
A Your Honer, I couldn't specifically say that I told
him he had to pay so much. I thought it was specifically
underatood that everybody had to pay.

THE COURT:
Go ahead, Mr. Blacksher.
MR. BLACKSHER:
| Mr. Mims, would you agree that black citizens in
Mobile do have particular rised interests peculiar to then?

A No. I could not say that they have particularized
interests. The whole commmity has interests.
Q Well, since you have your book, for Christ and

Country before you, the kind of thing I am talking about is
discussed on pages sixty-seven and sixty-eight. I would ome
to read these sections, if the Court will permit.
THE COURT:

Go ahead.
MR. BLACKSHER:

"We can no longer live in the days of our forefathers.

Negroes no longer live down the lane and pick cotton. The
black man has been thrust into society. It matters not whether

we like this fact. There is no escape. This problem must
be faced.”

Then over on the next page -- I am skipping, but
you can fill me in any time you feel like there is something
you want heard. “Reasonable white wen must also realize the
predicament of the blacks. Since the 1954 Civil Rights
decision, the American negroe has made much progress, and
many white men have changed their atitudes toward the race
issue. However, many thousands of negroes find themselves
totally unprepared to assume their places of responsibilities
in society.

Reasonable white men must ivalize that the negroe
needs training and education, and that in many cases he needs

to be advanced culturally. Reasonable white men must patiently

go through this period of adjustment."

That is the kind of thing I am talking about
Mr. Mims. Don't you agree that those kind of interests are
particular to black citizens of Mobile?
A Well, I think the whole commmity has needs and
what I was trying to do in this chapter of my book was to shoy
that reasonable white men and reasonable black men and reason
able Americans could work out the problems that we have and
of course, you have to take into consideration that this
book was published in the fall of 1969 right on the heels of

475

a

re

1018

all of the racial trouble that we had had in this country.
Q Well, now, concerning reasonable men, and let me
ask you, your views on this part at the bottom of page
sixty-eight, Will you say that the "negroes also must be
reasonable. They will have to realise that the events of
a hundred years cannet be changed in the snap of a finger.
The militant negroes want everything now. This is impossible,
The businessman starts small and grows. The farmer plants
a seed and cultivates before he gets a harvest. And it is
my firm conviction that the shouts and demands of the negroe
that the position of the negro race as a whole be changed now)
will never get the job done. If those who shout “now” would
spend half their energy trying to help the negro advance, they
would accomplish far more."

Do you still feel that way about the so called
negro problem?
A No, because you have a period of what, seven years
now, of basically harmony among the races in our comunity
and, at that time, as I said a moment ago, thie was right on
the heels of the marches, right at the time where there was a
group, incidentally, called NOW when there were burnings and
there were threatenings and all kinds of things going on and
turmoil in the community and people were demanding and shout

and marching on City Hall and marching on the city audiotori

=e

| and had demonstrations in the streets. What I am trying to

ars |

| 1

point out in this particular chapter of this book that was
published in 1969 was that reasonable white men and reason-
able black men are going to have to sit down and white men
are going to have to realize that there is a responsibility
at hand and the black people are going to have to realize
that they have responsibility also.

So, my main point here was to prove as reasonable
people set down they could work these things out. Of course,
there are other things that you skipped over. You skipped
over sections of this chapter that -- all of it is very
meaningful. For instance, you can read some of the things.

I will not go ineo it.

Q Let me ask you one more question on this what is
reasonable. I would like to read you «a statement made by

a prominent black politician and ask you if this is scacemnah.

"The wisest among my race understand that the
agitation of questions of social equality is the extremest
folley, and that progress in the enjoyment of all the
privileges that will come to us must be the result of severe
and constant struggle rather than of aritificial forcing.

It is important and right that all privileges of the law be
ours, but it is wastly more important that we be prepared for
the exercises of these privileges. The apportunity to earn a

- 478°

dollar in a factory just now is worth infinitely more than

the opportunity to spend « dollar in an opera house."
Would you say that is « reasonable attitude for

a black politician to take?

A I would say that is reasonable. I would have to

| digest that sentence by sentence.

Q Let me point out that this statement was made by
Booker T. Washington, September 18, 1895 at the Atlanta

| Cotton States and International Exposition and, of course,
hendice emmacebiemedhebatte that your point about the things
| that can't be changed in a enap of a finger, that occurred

| over a hundred years ago. That was four generations ago,

Mr. Mims.

|
my grandfather did. In 1965 I saw @ great need in this
community for some leadership and I was very happy in
busifiess, but I saw a great need for service and I offered
myself as a candidate for the Mobile City Commission and for
eleven years my sincere desire has been to meet the needs

of this entire commmity,both black and white, and I have
devoted eleven years of my life to this task and the record
is there and you can search it from 1965 on, on October 4th,

that Lambert Mims has tried to meet the needs of this commmi

A Well, sir. I can't help what my father did o1 what

|
|

until this day, and if you would be reasonable you would say

ty.

Q Let me ask you, then, sir, the same question I

asked Commissioner Doyle about City ordinances for fair or

equal employment opportunity, for open housing, for public
accomadation, and the cross burnings legislation. Would you

be in favor of city ordinances on those issues?

;
|

| A Well, on some of those matters they are covered by
| federal laws and regulations that would supersede anything
we do anyway. So, it would be a waste of time and effort
paper for the city tc pees an ordinance about open housing.
I think people should live wherever their economic situation
will permit them to live.

If you can afford a forty thousand dollar home you

“ought to be able to buy a forty thousand dollar home wherever

te is. If you can't afford but a twenty thousand, well, a lot
of people can't afford but a twenty thousend. I am not
“opposed to people living where their economic situation will
| allow them to live.

I see no need for a city ordinance for that. I
think, as an American citizen, you have that right.
| On the cross burnings, I deplore cross burnings. I
do not condone that in any shape, form or fashion. I brought

the two reverands who wrote me, Reverand Stokes and McCree “y

sent copies to everybody and his brother and said silence

|

479

j)might mean that you condone or something like this. I wrote |

. 486.

~

1022 ne 1023 _

those bretheren back -- and I think Mr. Arendall has a copy into the storm drains and that helps with our drainage
of a letter and told them, "You men know me better than to say problems.
that I condone such things as this," What a person does on Q Just a couple of other points, Mr. Mims.
his personal property, as long as he complies with the Board One last point about something you said in your
of Health regulations and the fire codes and what not, I don'¢ | book. You mentioned, I think, in there that it cost you
think I ought to get involved in telling him what he is doing thirty-five thousand dollars in your first campaign for
on his property. If he wanted to fly a red flag on his property, City Commission. I think that is on page seventeen. That
then that is his business. was the first indication I have had of firm evidence in

Now, I would have no reason to oppose an ordinance support of what has already been said here about what it might
that would make it a fine or make it an offense against the cost to run a City Commission campaign?
city to burn a cross on public property, on the right-of-ways. 4 Well, I believe I said we actually spent more than
I imagine that that would be already included in one of thirty-five thousand dollars and although this was a lot of
our ordinances. If it is not, I certainly would not oppose money for a political novice to raise, it was probably a small
an ordinance that would make that an offense against the amount as to probably what some people were spending. In fact,
city. the opposition, at that time, perhaps spent ........
Q Are you going to investigate whether or not it is Q Nineteen sixty-five?
already on the books? If not, are you going to propose such A Yes. The opposition, perhaps, spent far more than
an ordinance? that, because an incumbent was running and so was the chairman
A I would be happy to propose such an ordinance. I, of the Democratic committee, at that time, and so was the
you know, have not had reason, up to this point, to pursue it, son of a former mayor who was a well known man and here I an
but I think it should be an offense against the city to burn a farm boy from Monroe County came down to Mobile and, you
anything on the City's right-of-way, crosses, boxes or trash. know, and had an opportunity to run for City Commissioner and
In fact, I wish some people would quit burning their trash | only in a free country like America could a guy come out of
in the curbs or gutters. Some people burn that and push it the cotton patch to Mobile and get elected.

_ 484 _ 482

It was because of hard work and shoe leather and
getting people to help you and then getting people to help
you I was able to beat all of the odds, according to all of
the political prognesticators. You know, this guy, Lambert
Mims, who is he? 1 had God on my side. I feel he led me
into the field of politics and I feel he put me where I an
coday.

Q Yes, sir. So you would say, at the present time,
it would probably cost more than thirty-five thousand dollars|
to run a successful campaign on the City Commission?

A I wouldn't be surprised what with advertising and
media costs that it would be far more than that.

Q Mr. Mims, isn't it true that you are responsible
for Senator Perloff blocking this Roberts bill that would
change the form of government?

a That has been rumoured in the media, but that is
not -true,

Q You haven't spoken to Meyer Mitchell about ir,
have you?

4 I speak to Meyer Mitchell about many things, but I
have not spoken to Mr. Perloff about it.

|
1025

|
ment in Mobile on many occasions. In fact, Mr. Mitchell is |

a very strong proponent of the commission form of governnent -
He operates in many cities and he says thie is the strongest
form of government.
Q You are also a strong proponent of the commission
form of government?
A I believe with all of my soul it is the most
responsive form of government that the people of Mobile could
have. I do not know how any mayor, any nine councilmen or
nine commissioners or nine aldernmen could be any more |
responsive than this City Commission is being, at this time. |
My policy is to try to treat everybody with « |
courtesus reply and to move with a quick response and to have
a thorough follow through and I attfibete that to my success |
and the fact that I have been re-elected three times to this |
office that I am privileged to hold. |
I think we are responsive and some of these people |
that have testified in this trial that they wanted this and
they needed that and, so help me, many of these people have |
never crossed my threshhold into the office of the public

works commissioner of this city.

Se en ee aT a

Q I asked you if you had spoken to Mr. Mitehell about Q Mr. Mims, do you disagree with the other people that
this bill? have testified that, in their opinion, that a black person
| A Mr. Mitchell and I have discussed the form of govern- could not be elected in a city wide race for the City
453 aed |

; out and worked and sold himself on the fact that he was

A I don't necessarily subscribe to those feelings. qualified, I believe he would stand a chance of getting eam

People said a country bey from Monree County couldn't get to any office if he presented himself or herself, not as a

elected to the Mobile City Commission because of the nature colored person, not as a black person, not against white

of the politics in Mobile, but we proved them wrong. I People, not for white people, but to go out and present

a person who is qualified, number one, « person who is will themselves on the fact that they are qualified and they vere

and « person whe is willing to put forth an effort, the ‘sincerely interested in serving this commmity. That is what

effort it takes and « mmber of things to win am ‘election. the people want, somebody sincerely interested, not who is

It takes a willing hard working candidate and he must be | the whitest ex-I am the blackest or I am the richest or

qualified and it takes people to help. the poorest. They want somebody @ho is dedicated or sincere

You can't do it by yourself and it takes some in their efforts.

and you have to go out here and not be bashful and ask peopl (Q Can you point to any evidence that would support

to contribute to your campaign. (this opinion you ars expressing and, I take it you are saying

Q Are you saying all things being equal that « black ‘that the black candidate would have as good a chance as «

candidate would have as much chance to win, at large, as « white candidate, all other things being equal?

white candidate? 4 I am saying that there are some black people in

a I think the right black candidate that would this commmity who could run for any office and stand as good

present himself as an American citizen qualified te hold a chance of being elected as I stood in 1965 when I ran for

whatever office he is seeking would have « chance to be office the first time, probably better.

elected in Mobile, Alabama. a What evidence do you have to support that opinion?

Q My question was, the same chance as an equally j = COeas: |

qualified white candidate? | Why don't we go onto something else?

A Well, yas. I think a black person who presented c BLACKSHER : |

himself as a busineseman or as «a qualified person who got | Yes, sir. So, you are not in favor of City government
485 2 | - 486° i

being elected cut of single member districts?
A I stated that I was a firm believer that the
Mobile City Comission or the Commission form of government
for now sixty-five years has responded and is responding
more and has responded more in the last decade then ever
before to the needs of this commmity and the record proves
it. |
MR. BLACKSHER:

I have no further questions, your Honer.

BY MR. ARENDALL:
Q : Mr. Mime, may we have your book that there has been
so much talk about? I think we had better offer it all in
evidence.
MR, BLACKSHER:
I didn't offer mine, your Honor. It was
Mr. Menefee's and he wouldn't let me offer it.
MR. ARENDALL:
I offer, in evidence, for Christ and Country.

Thank goodness it is a little book.

487

(Defendant's Exhibit number 86 received
and marked, in evidence)

MR. ARENDALL: |
Q Mr. Mims, I overlooked asking you on direct

examination about a couple of things that I would like to

ask you about very briefly.

| Would you state generally what the current policy of
|

|

the City of Mobile is with reference to garbage collection? |
A We collect refuse. We call it our solid waste |
collection division. That division collects refuse from about
seventy thousand residences, twice per week, and we furnish

trash pick up with another division once a week.

Q Is that policy applied equally over both white and
black areas?

|
A Absolutely. |
|
|

Q What is the City's policy with reference to street
cleaning?
A Our city is divided into -- if I am not mistaken,

about fourteen different areas and we have a street sweeper

are swept on a regular basis.

assigned to each area and the streets in those particular an
|
Each piece of equipment and each operator has an |

area assigned and these areas are assigned without regard to.

race or color or community or any other thing.

{|
| _ 488

1030

Q All right. Wow, we have had an awfully lot of talk
about commissions, boards and so forth. For about ten minutes,
I would like to ask you a few more questions.

THE COURT:

If you will give the number when you refer to a
board.

MR. ARENDALL :

Judge, I propose, in an effort to sava time, to go |
ahead and introduce such material as we have on edeh of these
boards and commissions as to which Mr. Blacksher has asked
any questions. I don't know any better way to do it.

What basically we have, as to each, is a statement
of members and a copy of the applicable ordinance and I don't
propose to ask any questions about most of these. But they
have not been marked, because we had not contemplated that it
might be desirable. to put them in. I suppose the best thing
for me to do ......

THE COURT:

I really think it would be helpful to make it part
of the Exhibit 64 and then it will be altogether and can be
considered together.

MR. BLACKSHER :
I certainly have no objection, your Honor. It was

just a huge volume of material.

THE COURT:

Let's make it part of Plaintiff's 64.
MR, ARENDALL:

May I ask a few questions and then give them to
Mr. O'Connor?

THE COURT:

Surely.
MR. ARENDALL:

Now, I have not got, in this bundle of them, I have
only selected those that I understood Mr. Blacksher asked
questions about.

THE COURT:

I understood that.
MR. ARENDALL :

Mr. Mims, I notice that on the board of eee
one of the members is Dr. R. W. Galliard.

Do you consider him ready, able and willing to
speak on behalf of black interests and the N.A.A.C.P.?

A Yes, I do.

Q On the audiotorium board, let me run these names
out and I wish you would stop a when I get to a black, if
you would? Charles Bedsole, William Ladner, Joseph Baker,

Robert Brazier.

a He is black.

489 —

Thomas J. Gengo; Mre. W. L. Russell?

She is black.

John H. Castle; Taylor Hodge?
‘He is black.

Dr. W. A. Ritchie; Mrs, Shepherd Jerome; Thomas
Bryant, Jr.; Richard A. Rowan.

| Do you consider the blacks who are on there, such

as Mr. Taylor Hodge and others are fully capable of speaking
up for the black interests?
MR. BLACKSHER:
Are those presently on the audioctorium board?

an FF BD FF BF

MR. ARENDALL:

I am told by Mr. Greenough that they are,

The center city development authority is one of
the authorities that does not appear to have any blacks on
it, but I would like for you to identify, for me, Mr. James
Van. Antwerp, Jr.? Is he not a member of a family that owns
a great deal of downtown real estate?

A“ He is.
Q Mr. Ken L. Lott is president of the Merchants
National Bank, which also owns downtown real estate?

A He is.
Q Who is Mr. Don Henry?
a He is manager of Gayfer's downtown store.

1037

Frank Schmidt; Gerald E, Williamson and Ted Hackney, secretary

of the chamber of commerce.

Do you regard each of these gentlemen to be out-
standing business men in the city of Mobile?
a All of these men are outstanding business men.
0 All right. Now, until the recent formation of a
bank that I believe is called the Commercial Bank --
Commonwealth Bank, a minority black financed and organized
institution, was there such a thing as a minority bank in

Mobile?
a Not to my knowledge.
Q I will ask you if it is a fact that a white woman

is president of that bank?
A Yes. She is.

Q The members or the bankers on this committee are
the chief executive officers of the four largest banks in th
City, are they not?

A That is correct,

Q There has been some talk here, Mr, Mims, about the
library. Does the Mobile Public Library o€fer its services

or facilities to all citizens of whatever color?

a Yes, it does.

Q By virtue of change in housing patterns, as a matter

of fact, the main building is now in a black or certainly highly

_ 494

— 492 |

1038

integrated area, is it not?
MR. BLACKSHER:

I object, your Honor. There is no evidence that it
is and I would disagree.
THE COURT:

I will let him give an opinion.
MR. ARENDALL:

Maybe it isn't. I will ask you, do — consider
the location in a black or white part of Mobile?
A In my opinion it is a mixed area and predominantly
black.
Q Are you familiar with the location of the various
branches of the library?
A Yes.
Q Would you identify each and state where each is
located and indicate whether the area is predominantly black
or white?
2 Well, we have a very fine branch in Toulminville
that is predominantly black. We have a branch on Davis
Avenue that is predominantly black. Dauphin Island Parkway,
down in the area where I live, that is about twenty percent
black, I would say, at South Brookley. We have a branch in

Cottage Hill. Black people live all around the Cottage Hill

library.

1039

Q That is a predominantly white area?

+ That's right, and there is a branch in Springhill.
Q That is the Moorer Branch?

A Yes.

Q Mobile Planning Commission, the membership is,

and again, I would like for you to interrupt me when I get ta
a black member.

John L. Blacksher; Joseph M. Courtney; George L.

Langham.
a He is black.
Q Robert H. Massey; E. Allen Sullivan, Jr.; and

James C. Van Antwerp. |

Now, with the exception of Mr. Langham, all of these

are white, are they not?
A Yes.
Q Do you regard Mr. Langham as being ready, able and

willing to speak for whatever particularized interests, if

_ any, blacks may have in regard to the Mobile Planning

Commission matters?

a I do.

Q Mr. Blacksher got after you about the policemen and

fire fighters’ pension and relief fund board and let me read
the membership of this to you.

Dwayne Luce, is vice chairman of the board of the

493° |

494-

— SS SSC

1084

adjacent to Williamson High School that there was testimony
about yesterdey,
THE COURT:

Ie that predominantly black or mixed?

A I would say predominantly black.

Q | Ward thirty-two, Trinity Gardens?

7 Up here,

Q All right. Mr. Greenough,if you would get back on

the stand for a minute, please.

I would like an expression from you as to whether
you consider the parks and recreation program of Mobile
is operated in a fair or unfair amount insofar as blacks and
black areas are concerned?
- Well, I would have to say that on that balance we
probably have committed a larger proportion of our resources
to parks and recreation to the black population than we do
to the population of the City generally. I think that is
fairly obvious if you look over the dispersion of the parks
and the major recreation centers.

One thing that is a burden to us in Mobile, we
operate a pre-school program, because the Alabama Legislature
has not seen fit to provide one for the citizens of the state

in the public sector and we recognize that this is a need.
So, we provide one through the city recreation department

which consumes roughly fifty percent of our staff resources.
| We would like to be able to devote those resources to cther

| recreation programs, but until the legislature sees fit
|

‘rate.

to act in that regard, we will have to continue.

I think that we are very fair, try to be, at any
We recognize that particularly in parks and leisure
activity, it is basically voluntary, particularly when you
are dealing with people's children. There is probably more
controversy there among people than other normal business
aspects of life, but on that balance, I would have to say
that we are very fair.
Q You refer to pre-school programs. Precisely what
is that, for what age children does that attend to?
a It varies, but generally speaking it is somewhere
between the age of four and six and seven, depending on the
particular program and the particular location. It is sort
of like kindergarden.

We don't have licensed teachers. So, we are not

technically giving classroom instruction, but we do teach the
youngsters how to get along with one another'and getting

away from their parents at an early age.

THE COURT:

You made some statement that I missed a few

|
|

moments ago. I thought you made some statement with reference

to the amount of revenue with reference to the races?
A Yes, sir. I said I would have to say that on net
balance we spend probably a higher proportion of our
resources on parks and recreation for the black population
than the black population represents as a proportion of the
general population.
MR. ARENDALL:

Are all of your facilities integrated?

A Yes, sir.

Q Is your pre-school program integrated?

4 Yes, it is.

Q Mr. Greenough, you have been a commissioner now
for what, three years?

A Two and-a-half, almost three years.

Q Do you consider you have been responsive to the

needs of all citizens, both black and white, to the best of

your ability?
a I certainly hope that I have, yes.
MR. ARENDALL:

No further questions.

CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR, STILL:
Q Mr, Greenough, are you in favor of the continuation

the adoption by the City of Mobile of an equal opportunity
job ordinance which would apply to businesses which were
smaller than fifteen members?

a Well, I think I would -- I know my attitude and
I think it is fair to attribute to my fellow commissioners
that our attitude is performance rather than promises or

ordinances unless they are enforceable and meaningful. There

is not any point in having a great bunch of clamor and
discussion that is not going to produce anything.

We provide, in all of our contracts and require
of people that do business with the city government, equal
employment regulations and so forth.

|

Q Does the city make any effort*to make sure that
is enforced?
A Yes, we do. We don't have a particular en

division, however, it is required of our staff people to
review these things just as the prevailing wage rate is
involved in most of our contracts and things of that nature.
Q All right. But do I understand you correctly
that you oppose the adoption of an equal employment
opportunity ordinance because it would be unenforceable?

- I didn't say I opposed it. If we vigorously
proposed it, it would harm blacks, particularly in the

CETA program.

a7

—-- —

498°

1112

Q I am talking about private programs in che City
of MObile.
+ We don't run private employment in the City of
Mobile. |
Q If you adopted an ordinance regulating private

employment to provide that it had to be on a fair basis,
equal employment opportunity, are you for or against such
an ordinance? |

f Well, I don't think that I can anewer the
question put that way. Let me respond this way. I think
that our businesses in our nation have enough regulations
now end just because you pursue a single purpose goal you
can pursue it to the point that it is counter productive
and I think that is what results in what you suggest,

in my opinion. It is a matter of judgment, I suppose.

Q Would you favor the adoption of an equal
opportunity housing ordinance of any sort?
7 I think that the laws of the United States are

sufficient to pursue that goal. What I am trying to say to
you is I don't see where anything of substance or anything
meaningful, in our community, would be gained by going
through such « process.

Q Now, have you made any sort of an anaiysis,
either as a City Commissioner or at the time you were with

1128

Q The difference then being economic level of the
group shown on the second page of this graph is higher than

on the first page; is that correct?

A Yes.
Q Would you omment on that?
a Well, again, we have the same phenomena. This is

the data that appears on one twenty of my desertation, again
with 1973 added.

Roughly, the same in 1953 we had a rather low
percentage difference between the two racial groups and it

begins to increase in ‘57 and, in the 1960's it really peaks

and really so in 1965 and in 1973 dropping down almost to

the 1953 level.

Q Would you be seated again, please?

Dr. Voyles, Exhibit 28 reflects the ward by ward

wote for each of the candidates in the 1973 election. I

will ask you if the opinions that you have expressed are

supported in any respect by the returns there for the blacks
who ran?

a Well, I think it is supported rather well by the
returns for the blacks in that particular election. |

Q Did black voters support white candidates over
those in their own race in that campaign, in that election?

A For the most part, yes, they did.

|
|

=

8S.

—S =

— |
S00 :

1133

that Mr. Bailey's mean in these black wards was forty-three
point three three percent of the vote in the first election
and Mr. Taylor's was thirty-eight point one seven; is that

correct?
A Yes. This is correct,
Q And that in the Mims - Smith race, Mr. Mims's

vote was forty-three point four three percent and Mr.
Smith's was forty-one point five zero percent; is that

correct?
A Yes.
Q And now, looking at the third of these summaries,

would you tell us, that is headed summary of data, shift of

the black swing vote to Greenough in 1973 runoff, would you

tell us what this reflects?

a The first section -- again, it is the listing

of the wards by groups showing the returns for Mr. Bailey

and Mr. Greenough giving the means for the low income

black wards, the low middle income black wards and then

the total mean which would be the combination of the two.
As you can see, as a total mean of the wards we

classified black, Mr. Bailey received forty-three point

three percent and Mr, Greenough fifteen point three nine

percent in the first race and then, in the second race,

below that

Q In the runoff, how did it come out?

+ In the runoff, we did the same thing, which is
the second group of figures. Mr, Bailey received fifty-nine
point three percent and Mr. Greenough forty-three point

two percent.

Q What effect, in your opinion did this shift in the
vote in the black wards have on the Bailey - Greenough
runoff?

A Well, it was very significant in the election of
Gary Greenough as finance commissioner of the City of
Mobile. As you can see by the figures, Greenough gained
substantially more between the first race and the runoff
than did Mr. Bailey.

Now, particularly when you consider that Bailey
received -- oh, roughly forty-eight point one percent of the
vote the first time, Mr. Greenough had his back to the wall
pretty much in the runoff and this was a very significant
shift in the vote.

MR. ARENDALL:

I offer, in evidence, these three summaries
which I would like to have marked under one number and as
A, B, and C, respectively.

(Defendant's Exhibit 88A, B and @ were

received and marked, in evidence)

. SOL

568

MR, ARENDALL:

Dr. Voyles, did you notice any comparison or
make any comparison between the vote of black groups of
differing economic levels and so far as voting for black
candidates is concerned when compared with black and white
groups of similar economic levels voting for the eventual
winners?
a I am not for sure I follow your question.
Q I will ask you whether or not the d‘fference
between black greups of different economic levels is greater
in voting insofar as voting with black candidates is
concerned than it was between black and white groups in
similar economic levels in voting on the eventual winners?
Yes. I believe it was,
Q I believe it has already been testified to, but
is it a fact that ward ten was split figey fity in the Bailey
- Greenough runoff?
a Yes.
number of votes.

Exactly each of the candidates got the same

Q Dr. Voyles, as a political scientist, how do

you value the importance to the fact that this improvement
of the black vote for Greenough and the results of that 1973
election is in the overall voting patterns and political
picture in Mobile?

a Well, I think we are running, throughout the

south, Mobile included, to more normal voting patterns,
a situation in which race will not be a major political

issue.

Certainly not tod the extent that it was in the
1960's.
Q In your opinion, during the 1960's was the black

vote very cohesive?
a Yes. I think it was and even prior to the 1960's.
Q Is it fair to say that the non-partisan voter's
league, for example, played a part in that cohesiveness of

the black vote?

a Yes. I think they played a very significant
role.
Q In your opinion, the 1973, had the impact of the

non-partisan voter's league pink sheet endorsement substanti
diminished and had black cohesiveness substantially

diminished?

A Yes. I think it has, I don't want to imply that
endorsement by the non-partisan voters league is not

important, because it is. However, I think it is destined

to happen once you get a larger block of voting that is
more voters, it becomes very difficult for any one group

to represent their total interest. As blacks become more

——

ly

503

504°

assimilated into the political system, endorsement groups
are going to become less a factor, following somewhat the
same pattern as the labor unions, but as we know, labor
union endorsement in Mobile is not worth a great number of
votes. All members do not vote the way their people
endorse candidates.
Q Would you expect this trend of individual
voter decision by blacks to continue? |
. Yes. I think it wouldy I think individual is
a good word, but I think also there is diverse interest in
the black community that are going to be continued to be
represented by other groups other than one nominating
group. I think testimony by the non-partisan voters
league members earlier indicated that they think this is
true also.
Q What is your opinion as to whether the future
sees white candidates appealing more openly and diligently
for black support than in the past?
MR, BLACKSHER:

Ie this a hypothetical question, your Honor?
If not, I object, because there is no evidence in the
record.
MR. ARENDALL:

It is asking him for his opinion as a political

scientist.
MR, BLACKSHER:
Is the predicate hypothetical or not?
THE COURT:
That is a hypothetical, giving an opinion.
MR, STILL:
The question is white candidates appealling more
openly for black votes?
THE COURT:
I understood. That is what he would see in the

future and that is the question and you may answer.

a Yes, I think they will. I see no reason why not
to,
MR. ARENDALL:

In your opinion, if there is cohesiveness or to
whatever degree there is cohesiveness of black votes, the
power of the blacks would be represented by that cohesive
vote, would it not?

A Yes. I think that hypothetically or practically,
whichever way you want me to answer this thing, it ends up
the same way. I think that any group that has cohesion in
the Mobile commmity, and I believe the black commmity
still does, will be able to represent a great deal of the
electoral power on election day from the fact that the others

+338

~ 505 .

506°

1139

vote, as witnessed in the ‘73 race end also in the ‘76
county commission race, the other vote is split. The
elections are very close and the white commmity has been
very well split.

Anybody that can put together a block of votes
has a very strong bargaining position in the commmity.
Q And to such extent as cohesiveness diminishes
through the lessening of what is apparently called polariz-
ation, will that not require even greater effort on the part
of white candidates to address themselves to matters of
concern to blacks?
A Oh, yes, definitely. Because as the group becomes
less cohesive, it is going to change the campaign style of
white candidates in the black commmity, They are going to
have to appeal to more interest through different ways, I
expect, in the black commmnity.
Q,

1976 elections.

Now, Dr. Voyles, I would like to pass to the

Did you have anything to do with that election?
A Yes. My firm provided the professional services
for the Dan Wiley campaign. He was successful in winning

the county commission, place one, the position filled by

| Mr. Yeager.

MR, ARENDALL:

1140

I offer in evidence voting place count and turn
out and wotes for Bridges and Wiley in that election.
. I might add for the Court, these are the new
wards. I believe these are the first Exhibits with the
new reapportioned wards.
THE COURT:

So they have no correlation to these wards on
this man here, which is Defendant's Exhibit -- what is the
number of that -- those wards are not the same wards; is

that correct?

Then I offer Exhibit 32, which shows additional
data with reference to that Wiley - Bridges race.

(Defendant's Exhibits 31 and 32 received

and marked, in evidence.)
MR. ARENDALL: ,

Dr. Voyles, in connection with your activities
on behalf of Mr. Wiley in that race, did you have any
occasion to determine whether or not the various candidates

were seeking black votes?

; 508 >

1141

A To my knowledge, each of the candidates in the a
one race sought the black endorsement through the non-
partisan voters league and also launched very vigorous
advertising campaigns in the black community.

Q Thete has been some talk here about the cost of
elections in house districts and comparison with at large
city elections.

In your opinion, how much cheaper, if any, would
it be for one to launch a vigorous campaign in a contested
election in a house district race in relation to the cost
of a city commission, at large, race?

. I think it would be very little difference between
campaigning, at large, and campaigning in single member
districts. If it was a vigorous campaign fought by two
candidates that wanted to campaign hard. The reason I

say that, the big expense in campaigning, regardless of
the, size of the district, is the media and the media rates
are the same regerdless of the audience you are trying to
reach.

For instance, we go down and buy a thirty minute
spot on the T.V. and we have to pay the same rate.

THE COURT:
But do the district candidates address themselves

to the same thing?

1170

. 309.

how can they be a pivotal vote?

A Not to the same degree. They still have cohesiveness,

but you were doing a comparison thing. I don't think, for
example, we are going to see in the 1970's returns from the
black areas where one candidate has received ninety percent
of the black vote as once was the case in Joe Langan's races.
Ithink we are going to see or we did see in the 1973 - 1976
race simple cohesiveness within the black community, but
nothing like it was in the 1960's.

Q Did you examine Lonia Gill's race for the school
board in 19747
A No. I have not.

Q And have you examined the data that we introduced
into evidence in this case regarding Mrs. Lonia Gill's, the
vote she received?

a No. I have not, but you are talking about the
school commission race there where I think should be distin-
guished from the City Commission, county commission races.

Q Why is a school board race different than a
county commission race? If we are talking about racial
polarization within the city of Mobile?

A We are talking about elections that are on different
levels.

A school board race simply does not attract the

attention nor the finances, the money being spent, as a

: " 520:

1171 . 1172'
city commission, county commission race. Q . Your running?

As a result, it is my belief that races like A But you also spend a lot of money and get a lot
school board races, license commissioner races and things of name identification that does not occur in these minor |
of this nature depend more upon the personality or the | races like the school board. |
neighborhood that a person happened to come from, name Q well, ig it the amount of money or is it the kind
identification that they have gained through some other of issues that are raised?
way than say a city commission - county commission race. a I think the amount of money determines a great deal
There are no issues in school board races. : the kind of issues that are raised. If you can spend -- let's
Q Except perhaps whether you want the schools take a figure of forty thousand dollars on a race. You are
integrated or not? able to penetrate the voting market much better than you are
A I don't think anyone really brought that up this say in a school board race where you are going to spend four
last time with the exception of Mr. westbrook, who ran last. or five thousand dollars.

Q Let me understand this, are you saying that certain Thus, a candidate running for a major office spending
elections, certain types of elections, are so qualitatively this type of money can start with very little name identifi-
different that they cannot be feasibly compared with a —o and build it in all segments of the community; whereas,
Mobile City Commission election to tell us the voting you are going to run for the school board and say spend four
behavior of city voters? thousand dollars and a person cannot afford to @o that. That
A ; Yes. I think so. oon not buy you very much time on the media. There are

Q Or is a presidential election primary in another probably some factors involved.......

state qualitatively different or qualitatively the same as THE COURT:

the Mobile City Commission race? Let's take a recess right here. Take » twenty.

A I don't know that I can really answer that other = recess.

than we see the voting patterns. There it is, an election | (RECESS) |
that gets a deal of attention. i COURT:

I - ot | —3- 1

uniform view; most negroes are under privileged,

I make for political races and itis my belief that race
is no longer an issue to the extent it was in the 1960's.
A candidate that would raise that kind of issue today would
cost himself as many votes as he would gain, if not more.
Q Are you familiar with Alexander Heards* book,
“The New Negro Politics"?
A Yes.
Q He makes the statement, let me read you a
statement and let me ask you whether you agree with it.

“The two elections -- that he has just talked
about -- suggest the important conclusion that cohesiveness
among negro voters lessens when their right to vote is not
challenged, and when white candidates solicit their votes
with the same impartiality that they solicit white votes,
Certainly such as the experience in the upper south and in
northern cities."
e Yes.

Would you agree with that?

Yes.

on Fr ODO °F

He goes on further, “While the importance of one
basis for block voting among negroes will decline as negro

sufferage becomes better established, another basis for unit
in negro voting exists. Thoughtful negroes hold a remarkabl

They shoul

1178

therefore support candidates advocating economic and social
policies benfecial to the mass of under privileged citizens".

Do you agree with that statement?
A I think that is probably the case that blecks do
represent a certain segment of the economic community.
Q Now, 1973 and in 1976 we have evidence that at
least, in those elections and at least in the ones that
we have talked about, the particular races we have talked
about, that black votes were sought impartially?
a No. The races that I was involved in, yes, openly
and impartially, I think.
Q Now, you are saying that you can tell that 1973
is not a deviating election from a racial polarized pattern,
because it was reaffirmed in 1976?
A That is part of it, Mr. Still. I think algo there|
is a certain amount of intelligence and logic we have to put
to that. All we have to do is to watch the nightly news
and compare what we were watching in 1965 and ‘66 and so on.
It is a simple fact that race is not a major news getting
issue as it was in the 1960's. ,

we don't have people marching in the streets. “We
don't have the situation of the conflict between white and

black.

SIs

118)

ture in that field, didn't you?
* Yes, I aid.
Q All right. Mow, in preparing the extension into
1973 which you have shown us on the chart that you have
presented in this case, what elections did you look at to
come to the conclusion that you presented to the Court in
your direct testimony?

A Nineteen seventy-three City Commission and the
1976 County Commission races.

Q All right.
primary in the State of Alabama?
A Yes.

g Excuse me, that was ‘74 and in ‘72 there was a

Presidential election and in ‘76 there has been a Presidential

primary, but you didn't look at any of those for the extension

of the analyses?

» No, I didn't.

Q But you did look at that kind of election when
you were doing your thesis, didn't you?

A Yes, sir.

Q Now, in doing your thesis you looked at all
elections in which blacks had run, including school board

elections, but in the extension of your analyses, you aid not

look at the 1974 school board race in which Mrs. Lonia Gill,

1189

Now, in 1972 there was a immedi

_ o15-

Q So you have to look eat some background facts.
You can't just look at the computer print-outs?
a That is what my committee told me when I first

presented that.

Q I see. Now, have you taken into account the 1972
Presidential race, the 1974 school board race, the 1974
governoratorial race in coming to your conclusion that you
have made here in the Court about the 1970's?

A No. I have not and, to explain why, if I may,
the last Presidential race I think would have no bearing. on
it any more than the 1964 Presidential race would; that is,
that it was an extraordinary race because of the candidacy
of Goldwater in '64 and McGovern in '72. .

I included the Goldwater race in the desertation
because it chronologically fell in where I was talking about.
The school board race, again, I do not think that those type
of races have a particular bearing on the type of case we
are talking about here. I think they are all together
different, because of the name identification factor.

Simply put, there are no issues if a school board
race. You win simply because of name identification and
it is logical for the voters to do this in the school board
races.

The governoratorial primary, I did not look at that.

Q You also did not look at the 1970 County

—_—S

1190

| A I don't know.

Commission race in which Joe Langan ran, did you?

A No, I didn't.

Q Why did you exclude that?

A I didn't do county races in the desertation.

Q But you have included as an example of a supporting

example for your canclusions about the 1970's, the 1976
race,
a Again, still the fact that Mr. Langan involved

in the race is going to escue the race somewhat, the 1970

County Commission race, the fact that he was highly identi-

fied with the black vote.

Q If Joe Langan had run in 1976 for the County
Commission, do you think the results would have been the
same?

He had a lot of things against
him besides the race. He had been out of office for an
awfully long tine. I think Mr. Langan could have won in
1970 if he had run the right kind of campaign.

Q Now, your thesis covered the City Commission

election or elections from 1953 through 1969?

= Yes, sir.

Q Isn‘t it true, if we are going to do any type

of political analyses like this, we cannot use one isolated

election, but instead, we have to look at a trend over a

— OL?

1211
it would be difficult for a black person to win the race.
I don't think it would be totally impossible.
Q But it would be more difficult than it would be
for a white candidate?
A I think it would be. I think blacks are somewhat
in the same position now that Catholics were in the Al Smith,
John Kennedy races. Someone has to win nationally to solve
“is issue.
Q Now, you have told us that the 1973 races antieaey
a return to the type election we had in 19537
A To a more normal period, yes.
Q How many blacks were registered to vote in
1953?
A I have no idea. It would be very slight.
Q It was probably less than a thousand, wasn't it?
A I really don't know. I think I gave the figures
to you. I don't have them up here.
Q As a matter of fact, those figures are in your

desertation in a chart, aren't they?

A They may be.
Q Dr. Voyles, you might want to step over here so

we can look at this chart close up. I am referring to

Plaintiff's Exhibit number 56.
Now, as you remember, this chart shows a

Dis

1214

2 Yes. I believe I did.
Q And the R, the Pearson's R, for place one, the

Bailey - Greenough race, according to your figures was a poise

seven nine, wasn't it?

A I don't have it, but I trust that is what it is.
Q Now, didn't you describe that in your deposition
as being a medium high correlation?

A Yes, it is.

Q As a matter of fect, it explains about sixty-two
percent of the vote in terms of race, doesn't it? .

a Of the difference between the groups, yes.

Q All right. Now, for the Mims election, I believe
the R is a point seven one?

A Yes.

Q And that explains just about fifty percent of the
vote for Mr. Mims?

A‘ Yes.

Q Or for or against Mr. Mims in terms of race, doesn't
it?

a Yes, except Mr. Mims did so well in all the wards

and is really kind of meaningless in terms of politics.
Q Now, the Pearson's R for race for Mr. Langan in -
"53 election was point four one and '57 it was point five

two; in ‘61 is point seven one, which is -- all of those are

still less than what Mr. Greenough got in '71 -- ‘73, I

mean?
A Yes. I agree with that.
Q And in '65, Mr. Langan's was point nine three and

in '69 it was point nine one?

A Yes.

Q Which those were the two peaks?

A Yes.

Q Now, looking at these figures, rather than just

on graph, if we just look at these figures, wouldn't we say
that the Bailey - Greenough race in 1973 was more like the
1961 Langan race if we looked only at those figures?
* Yes. That is why we don't look only at those
figures. It would be quite misleading.
Q So instead we look at these figures and the chart
that you have given us, right?
a I think so and the voting returns.
Q Now, you went over some of the relative merits
yesterday of the commission system of government.

What would you say are the relative good points of

a@ mayor-council system of government?
A I think the relative good points are somewhat the

same as Mr. Langan described when he wae giving his testimony;

that is, you have a centralized administrative authority and

o13)

i

| predominantly black wards and the number of black people that

im?) Don't you get wider representation around the
city?
o I assume it depends on what you mean by how it is

one person, who is responsible back to the voters and you
have separate legislative authority through the council,

which is also responsible back to the voters. It is much
easier, I believe, to pinpoim responsibility in a mayor-
council system than it is in a commission form of government.

I think this is some advantage.

divided and drawn.
Q Now, yesterday you were asked on direct examination
about the number of white people who would be located in

would be located in predominantly white wards and the point

was made, I believe, at that time, that if there was a return

to racial polarization that the white people living in
predominantly black wards would be essentially unrepresented.

yes, that would happen. I don't think that is the case.

For example, my legislator happens to be black and
I don't think I am just disinfranchised or don't have access
to hia.

Q If we go to the same hypothetical you were offering
yesterday?
a Oh, yes. If we go to extreme polarization between

black and white, unless the black commmity could get into
the position of playing coalition politics to influence
elections very drastically, it would be a very difficult
thing to anticipate. They have been able to be in that
position before.
Q Now, also yesterday you gave us a list of reasons
why multi-member districting might be preferential to single
member districts.

Do you remember those reasons? You don't have to

go over them. I want to see if you remember what you said?

Their votes would be diluted? A I am not sure I know what you are referring to.
| a Yes. We say that if we took it to an extreme of Q Wetl, I believe you were talking about the techno-
| polarization. logical problem of districting? ?
| Q Isn't that what is happening right now with the A I am with you.
| sixty-five thousand black people in this City that if racial Q Special interest groups and that sort of thing?
| polarization resumes that their vote won't count for anything? A Yes.
A If there is racial polarization to that extreme, Q Are any of those peculiar to Mobile as opposed to
+ S25 See

1253

Q Irregardless of race?
A Yes, sir.
(MR. BEDSOLE:

Q Captain, is it the policy of the planning division,
as it advises the chief of police to provide adequate protec-
tion to all citizens as the resources are available?

A Yes, sir.

I have no further questions.
THE COURT:

You may cross hin.

CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. BLACKSHER:
Captain Winstanley, you have explained to us the

system you used to assign the number of patrol cars to given

‘patrol areas and the size those patrol areas will be geograph-
fealty; is that correct?

A Not necessarily the size. It is on the amount of
crime in an area, not necessarily -- as I just pointed out,
you can take patrol area fifteen in a predominantly black
area and that would go about twenty times in thirty-nine,

a predominantly white area. Therefore, size is -- we try to
consider it when we can, because a car has to come from one

side of his territory to another to answer a call, but the

southern water shed in the southern and southwestern part
of the City of Mobile.
THE COURT:

All right.
MR, BEDSOLE;:

Mr. Joyner, I believe we have got the color
of green indicated completed or perhaps just started. I
would like to look at the various areas using the
pointer. Where is the westlawn. project located?
a The westlawn project is located centrally in the

City of Mobile at this point here.

Q Would that be the east of the Springdale Plaza
comp lex?

a It would be north of Springdale Plaza.

Q Would you indicate which water shed that would
feed into?

A That would feed into the Eslava Creek or Dog

River water shed.

Q Where is the east Toulminville project?

A It is located in the northeast section of Mobile.
‘

Q And I believe that you have prepared a chart

which we will offer in evidence as an Exhibit, but this

bid opening took place January 16, 19737

JK

Je

Ss
Vi
>

A That is correct. It was one of the first. The
westlawn and Springhill Avenue were the first projects let.
Q And the east Toulminville project affects a

primarily black neighborhood; is that correct?

A Yes, sir. As far as I know.
Q And Springhill Avenue project?
A Well, it was considered an emergency project for

years. There had been complaints about ambulances not being
able to get in and out of Providence Hospital. That was
the reason for initiating the ones on Springhill Avenue

first.

—Q Before we go any further, relate to us the

priority that you have in your major drainage projects? By
that, I think you have indicated emergency and so forth.
would you relate the hierarchy of your scheme?

A When this program first started out, it was set
up and we tried to catch emergencies first and then we would
catch the drains that served the greater number of people
second and then individuals third. That is the way the
program was started and, if I may, I would like to get into
a little background about the program, with the Court's
permission?

THE COURT:

All right.

jase

1260

- we

help to serve tho drains for the Dauphin street thorough

fare?
THE COURT:
Are you speaking of the extension?
MR, BEDSOLZ:
Yes, sir.
A No, sir. I don't think you could say it weuld

affect the Dauphin Street.

Q Moore's Creek, phase one?

A This is Moore*s Creek, phase one, in an area of
Kate Shepherd's School, St. Ignacious School, and .......
Q Big Stickney drainage next to Mobile Infirmary?
A This is Big Stickney here. It was necessary to

put this one on in to help with the Springhill avenue

drainage problem in front of the Providence Hospital.

Q That was also on an emergency type of need?

A It was. It was outfall for Springhill drainage.
Q Texas Street area, southern drain?

A That is this drain right here in the Texas urban

renewal area.

Q I am going on and on, Let us go into some of the
ones that we have the plans drawn and that is indicated by
the yellow, I believe, sir.

A That is correct,

See

1267

;
i

with the map.

There has been some testimony in this case,
Mr. Joyner, about the problems with Three Mile Creek and the
fact that perhaps some of these projects that led into it
will cause water to be dumped into the Three Mile Creek
and won't help alleviate anything until we get the Three
Mile Creek problem corrected,

Can you address yourself to the problem of the
Three Mile Creek drainage?
- well, I would certainly have to say it is a big
problem. If you wanted to put it into some sort of an
equation, I think you might say that Three Mile Creek is
to the City of Mobile as the Mississippi River is to the
United States. Sure, if you dump water into it, it is
going to affect it, but Three Mile. Creek has flooded in
past and I suspect that it will flood in the future and I
wquld almost be willing to bet on it.
Q What sort of requests has the city made to
various agencies for help with Three Mile Creek problem?
A well, we have had one meeting that I recall with
the Corp of Engineers about Three Mile Creek. We realize
that it is a big problem and we want to do something about
it, but we are talking about millions of dollars, not just

something like the three or four million that we referred

to

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Source: Frix Law Library, https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/brief%3Amicro_IA40385005_1226%3A03. Public record. Not legal advice.