# FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 1 of 44 * PUBLIC * > Briefs, arguments, decisions, and more. URL: https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/agency%3Aftc%3A4dda4c4a273554a1 ## Record - **Collection:** Agency decision - **Document type:** Agency decision ## Text FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 1 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 1 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION 3 OFFICE OF ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGES 4 ________________________________ 5 In The Matter of: 6 DR. LARRY RICKMAN OVERLY, DVM, 7 Appellant. 8 Docket No. 9 9443 10 ________________________________ 11 HEARING 12 DATE: Thursday, August 13, 2026 13 TIME: 12:58 p.m. 14 BEFORE: Jay Himes, Administrative Law Judge 15 LOCATION: Remote Proceeding 16 600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Northwest 17 Washington, DC 20580 18 REPORTED BY: Helen Tadesse 19 20 21 Job No. CS8385695 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 2 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 ON BEHALF OF APPELLANT DR. LARRY RICKMAN OVERLY: 3 HOWARD JACOBS, ESQUIRE (by videoconference) 4 Law Offices of Howard L. Jacobs 5 31111 Agoura Road, Suite 225 6 Westlake Village, CA 91361 7 howard.jacobs@athleteslawyer.com 8 (805) 790-8790 9 10 ON BEHALF OF APPELLANT DR. LARRY RICKMAN OVERLY: 11 KATY FREEMAN, ESQUIRE (by videoconference) 12 Law Offices of Howard L. Jacobs 13 31111 Agoura Road, Suite 225 14 Westlake Village, CA 91361 15 katy.freeman@athleteslawyer.com 16 (805) 790-8790 17 18 19 20 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 3 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Cont'd) 2 ON BEHALF OF HORSERACING INTEGRITY AND SAFETY 3 AUTHORITY: 4 ALLISON FARRELL, ESQUIRE (by videoconference) 5 Horseracing Integrity & Welfare Unit 6 4801 Main Street, Suite 350 7 Kansas City, MO 64112 8 afarrell@hiwu.org 9 (816) 285-1425 10 11 ALSO PRESENT: 12 Dana Gross, Legal Assistant For The Office of 13 Administrative Law Judges (by videoconference) 14 LaShaon Asberry-Beach, Legal Assistant For The 15 Office of Administrative Law Judges (by 16 videoconference) 17 Sarah Botha, From The Office of General Counsel 18 (by videoconference) 19 20 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 4 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 4 1 2 3 E X H I B I T S NO. DESCRIPTION (None marked.) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 ID/EVD FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 5 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 5 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 THE REPORTER: 3 And we are on the record, sir. 4 THE COURT: 5 I'm Judge Himes. The time is 12:58 p.m. Thank you. As most of you know, 6 I'm the administrative law judge of the Federal Trade 7 Commission assigned to this case: matter of Overly, 8 Docket 9443. 9 Now, the Commission has remanded this 10 case to me in its July 21 order, directing me to 11 consider the case consistent with the Commission's 12 Serpe decision. 13 help inform my response to the Commission's order. 14 And this conference is intended to Let me begin by taking the appearances 15 of the parties. 16 Dr. Overly. 17 I'll start with the appellant, MR. JACOBS: 18 Honor. 19 appellant, Dr. Overly. Howard Jacobs and Katy Freeman for the 20 21 22 Good afternoon, Your THE COURT: Okay. And for the Authority? MS. FARRELL: Yes. Good afternoon, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 6 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 6 1 2 3 Judge. Allison Farrell on behalf of the Authority. THE COURT: Okay. And you're HIWU again, doing double duty; right? 4 MS. FARRELL: 5 THE COURT: That is correct. Okay. So this conference 6 is, of course, a video conference. 7 not identified publicly a feed for members of the 8 public, the proceeding is not confidential. 9 member of the public in one way or another has gotten 10 the link and logged in, that's fine, but they must 11 disable their video and mute their audio. Although we have If any 12 I don't think there is anybody that I 13 see identified from the public, but if someone comes 14 in, as I said, this is not a confidential proceeding. 15 We have a court reporter, and so the 16 proceeding will be transcribed, and the final version 17 will be part of the public docket in this case. 18 19 Can I ask the court reporter to please identify themself? 20 THE REPORTER: 21 Helen Tadesse, and I'm the court reporter. 22 THE COURT: Yes, sir. Thank you. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 My name is We have staff FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 7 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 7 1 from the Office of the Administrative Law Judges also 2 on. 3 Well, Sarah Botha, who is that? 4 MS. BOTHA: 5 I'm from the Office of General Counsel. 6 THE COURT: 7 you. 8 you're here. Hello, Your Honor. Oh, good. Yes. Nice to have I know we had invited you, and I'm glad to see Thank you. 9 I will quickly just go through some 10 logistics, and then we'll deal with the substance of 11 the conference. 12 of days ago. 13 Only the attorneys who are authorized to speak during 14 the conference should do so on the link. We sent video instructions a couple I'm confident you have them in mind. 15 If you are counsel speaking today, you 16 should keep your video on at all times and your audio 17 on while you are speaking. 18 identify yourself for the court reporter's benefit. Before speaking please 19 All right, we'll move to the substance. 20 I take the Commission's remand order to call on me to 21 determine whether a further remand to the arbitrator 22 is appropriate in view of the rulings I made in my www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 8 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 8 1 merits decision, which increased the ineligibility 2 period for Dr. Overly and also the fine beyond that 3 which the arbitrator had awarded. 4 Now, following the Commission's order, 5 I granted the parties leave to submit briefs on the 6 possible effect of Serpe and a subsequent order I 7 issued in a case called "Matter of Scott." 8 After receiving those briefs, I called 9 for this conference to permit further discussion. 10 in doing so, I identified two topics that I wanted the 11 parties to be prepared to discuss. 12 And The first was to explain more 13 specifically what they contend an arbitrator should be 14 asked to consider if a remand is ordered, and to 15 discuss whether it would be acceptable if I simply 16 affirm the 23-month ineligibility period and the 17 $25,000 fine that the arbitrator had arrived at, 18 directed that the 23 months apply individually to each 19 ADRV and apply consecutively. 20 The idea was that perhaps that would 21 obviate the need for any remand, and enable Dr. Serpe, 22 or, indeed, the Authority, to seek review with the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 9 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 9 1 Commission without additional proceedings before the 2 arbitrator. 3 Now, by offering these two suggestions, 4 I don't mean to preclude either side from raising any 5 other matter that they think is worthy of discussion 6 here, but let's focus on my topics first. 7 I'll start with the second question, 8 which I do hope the parties have thought about and 9 maybe even conferred. 10 So let me ask for Ms. Farrell on behalf 11 of the Authority to comment first. Obviously what I'm 12 suggesting is whether there is an ability to really 13 facilitate a more prompt conclusion of what I should 14 think matters most here, and that is the length of 15 ineligibility that Dr. Overly will have to serve. And 16 it's going to be something one way or the other. Now, 17 maybe I'm just plain wrong on that, however. 18 So, Ms. Farrell, what's your reaction? 19 MS. FARRELL: 20 Thank you, Your Honor. 21 22 Yeah. Allison Farrell on behalf of the Authority. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 10 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 10 1 So to be clear, what the Authority 2 understood the second option to be was you would 3 affirm the sanction of the arbitral body. 4 in a sense, by saying that the 23 months would apply 5 individually and consecutively, the Authority 6 understood that to be an increase of the sanction that 7 the arbitrator awarded, if we understand correctly. 8 And given -- 9 THE COURT: And then, Well, it has that effect, 10 but it's based on a rule construction that I undertook 11 in light of the party's arguments over, which -- 12 you'll forgive me if sometimes these rules blend -- I 13 think it was 3228 D, but I could be missing that. 14 MS. FARRELL: 15 THE COURT: 3228 D. Yeah. Okay. So that's how 16 you get from 23 months or whatever to 46 months or 48 17 months; however, you multiply by two. 18 that, if I'm understanding you, an ALJ is disabled 19 from construing rules in a way that increased the 20 sanctions? 21 22 MS. FARRELL: clear, not certain. Your view is The Authority's to be And so in order to be consistent www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 11 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 11 1 with a conservative interpretation of what the 2 Commission ordered in Serpe, the Authority -- 3 I mean, I'll just cut to the chase and 4 say the Authority's position is that they would choose 5 Option 1 and ask Your Honor to do a partial remand to 6 the arbitral body, rather than agree to what I'll call 7 "the compromise" offered in Option Two. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Let me just say 9 something about that. 10 could go to the Commission and find out once and for 11 all whether I'm right or wrong on the subject of 12 construing a rule in the way that I did and producing, 13 as a result, an increased sanction over that, which 14 the arbitrator awarded. 15 If you accepted Option 2, you The arbitrator here didn't, in fact, 16 really reach that issue. 17 agree with my Shell 2 ruling that separate violations 18 could be charged. 19 What the arbitrator did was And if I'm remembering right, what the 20 arbitrator then did was jump to proportionality and 21 say, "I'm going to find the proportionality applies, 22 and so I'll only issue a single award of sanctions," www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 12 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 12 1 without getting to whether the rule itself authorized 2 consecutive sanctions. 3 the arbitrator's way of thinking. It was basically academic to 4 I think I've summarized what happened 5 there correctly, but if not, just let me know how you 6 see it differently. 7 MS. FARRELL: I don't see it 8 differently. 9 of the efficiency of the proposed Option 2, but the 10 Authority would prefer to have a partial remand on the 11 issue of sanction consistent with your finding. 12 I understand what you're saying in terms THE COURT: Well, okay. 13 go to Option 2 then directly. 14 maybe I should hear from Mr. Jacobs. 15 I mean, we can Well, before I do that, Mr. Jacobs, what do you think about 16 this? 17 was, I would worry about, you know, how much time, so 18 to speak, my guy is going to do, and you haven't been 19 able to get the Commission to rule on that. 20 I mean, if I were in your position, and I often You know, you applied for Commission 21 review, and the Commission technically took the case, 22 but then sent it back to me without ever reaching any www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 13 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 13 1 of the merits of the ruling. 2 the opportunity to get back to the Commission, which 3 is where you wanted to be, quicker? 4 MR. JACOBS: So how do you feel about So I'm coming at it from a 5 slight -- sorry, Howard Jacobs for appellant, 6 Dr. Overly. 7 I've discussed the matter with 8 Dr. Overly. 9 does, but for a different reason. 10 Dr. Overly simply won't agree to the increase, what 11 is, in effect, doubling of his sanction. 12 you're saying, that it ultimately is going to have to 13 be decided, but he doesn't want to be in a position 14 where he's agreed to that, even if it's just to -- 15 We come to the same places Ms. Farrell THE COURT: And the reason is I hear what Oh, I would never ask him 16 to agree to that. 17 procedure that says, you know, "Himes has talked to 18 the parties. 19 And the parties agree that without prejudice to any 20 side's position on any issue in the case, Himes will 21 amend his order." 22 I mean, I think we could fashion a He took briefs. Yeah. He held a conference. I'm speaking off the cuff. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 I FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 14 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 14 1 mean, the technical language doesn't matter, but, 2 "Himes will say, 'Okay, 23 months, but he believes 3 consecutive sanctions are appropriate under Rule 3228 4 D, and therefore that works out to be 46 months. 5 "'Himes won't bother with the 6 penalty,'" because I don't think HIWU cares terribly 7 much about the money. 8 whatever they want to do in front of the Commission 9 are preserved. 10 accepting consecutive sanctions. 11 And everybody's rights to do He didn't have to agree that he's MR. JACOBS: Well, so I would have to 12 go back to Dr. Overly with that, because I had read 13 the email as essentially requiring acceptance. 14 THE COURT: Oh, no. 15 MR. JACOBS: Yeah. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MR. JACOBS: And even with the No. 18 understanding that it would quicken the ultimate, you 19 know, decision on the issue, Dr. Overly is concerned 20 with any appearance that he's agreed to this increased 21 sanction and the effect that may have on other 22 proceedings that he's dealing with. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 15 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 15 1 THE COURT: Okay. Look, if you two 2 could agree, and maybe even if you can't, but if you 3 two could agree, you can certainly propose language to 4 me, Mr. Jacobs, that you think gives Dr. Overly the 5 assurance that, A, he's not agreeing to two times 6 twenty-three, and, B, whatever he's agreeing to 7 doesn't impact him somewhere else. 8 certainly open to considering language that would 9 accomplish that. 10 All right? MR. JACOBS: So -I would be open to 11 explore -- I'm sorry, Your Honor. 12 exploring that. 13 think. 14 I mean, I'm I would be open to It's going to take some work, I THE COURT: Well, okay. You want to 15 get down to it: It won't take as much work as going 16 back to the arbitrator, which is what we're going to 17 talk about next. 18 As long as I have you, Mr. Jacobs, I 19 I'm going to ask you about that subject, because what 20 you wrote in your brief was that if the ALJ finds that 21 both anti-doping rules have been established, it's 22 submitted that the most the ALJ can do is to remand www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 16 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 16 1 this case for sanctioning consistent with the ALJ's 2 findings. Okay? 3 My first question is what in that 4 suggestion does "if" mean? 5 need to revisit the liability rulings? 6 MR. JACOBS: Are you suggesting that I No, no. No, Your Honor. 7 I was just saying that the options available to you 8 are to, in essence, from the outset, was to either 9 affirm what the arbitrator did or remand it. 10 "remand it" would be, you know, with guidance from 11 your order as well as presumably the order that 12 followed that. 13 And Our view is that you can't increase the 14 sanction or the fine. 15 same, or you could reduce it. 16 option. 17 that. 18 reduce it, or remand it. 19 THE COURT: I forgot. You can either keep it the That was the third It's clear you're not going to do So the three options were keep it the same, That's all we were saying. Okay. I mean, I don't read 20 anything in Serpe to suggest that I have to revisit 21 the liability findings that I made. 22 that? You agree with www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 17 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 17 1 MR. JACOBS: I do. Yes. 2 THE COURT: Okay. Okay. 3 helps. 4 the least? Now, you say the most that I could do. 5 6 So that MR. JACOBS: What's The least would be to just affirm what the arbitrator did. 7 THE COURT: Which was kind of what I 8 was offering in Option 2 that we discussed. 9 MR. JACOBS: 10 it's doubling the sanction. 11 THE COURT: But not in reality because It's not -Well, okay. You're right You're right about that. I could accept 12 about that. 13 the ineligibility, but double it. 14 the fines somehow or another just seems to me almost 15 incidental and not worth worrying about here. 16 Okay. Okay. And again, Okay. So I think I understand what you're saying. 17 Let's assume that I think a remand is 18 necessary. 19 Scott, you know. 20 I can or can't do in this case on the facts of this 21 case, but let's just pass that and not argue it here. 22 Assume I remand it to the arbitrator. And by the way, I wrote something in And I may not agree with you on what www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 18 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 18 1 Is there something that you think is missing from the 2 record that the arbitrator had that needs to be 3 filled? Added? A deficiency? 4 MR. JACOBS: I don't believe so. 5 THE COURT: Okay. By the way, 6 Ms. Farrell, I mean, do you agree with that? 7 were remand here -- in your approach, it's on 8 proportionality, but let me just ask the same 9 question. 10 for whatever reason, is there something, some 11 deficiency, some defect, something that you think 12 needs to be added other than -- If there If there were a remand to the arbitrator 13 MS. FARRELL: To the record? 14 THE COURT: Yeah, to the record. 15 MS. FARRELL: No. 16 THE COURT: No, okay. 17 I've got agreement on something today. 18 Okay. Good. So, Mr. Jacobs, if I were to remand and 19 say, "Okay, take a look at sanctions again," what is 20 it the arbitrator's supposed to do? 21 decision presumably. 22 he may agree with me when he reads it all and say, He'll have my And he'll see what I said. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 And FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 19 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 19 1 "Okay. 2 him 23, 24 months." That makes a bit of sense to me. 3 I'll give I don't think that difference matters 4 much. And they're consecutive. 5 "No. I've read it. 6 with what I did." 7 because you think your client showed compelling 8 justification; right? 9 Or he's going to say, It's interesting. I'll stick You're still going to come back MR. JACOBS: Well, yes, but whether we 10 would come back or not, I mean, that decision hasn't 11 been made. 12 by January, I think, is when it's up. 13 wrong on that. 14 come back. 15 I mean, at 23 months, I think, is served I could be So it may be moot by the time we would THE COURT: Well, that counsel against 16 trying to find a better resolution. 17 scenario that I've just gone through sounds like the 18 arbitrator is then reviewing me; right? 19 decision in front of him, and he says, "Okay. 20 nay?" 21 22 MR. JACOBS: You know, the He's got my Yay or Well, I think a third option is the arbitrator, she could ask the parties www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 20 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 20 1 for, you know, oral argument on the issue. 2 it's remanded. I mean, She could ask the parties for that. 3 THE COURT: Sure. 4 MR. JACOBS: But ultimately, the Sure. 5 arbitrator would be remanded so that the arbitrator is 6 reconsidering her earlier decision with input from 7 your decision as well as any additional argument from 8 the parties. 9 THE COURT: Yeah. Right. I agree. 10 The arbitrator could hear argument; the arbitrator 11 could take more briefs. 12 saying is, "We've given the arbitrator a new data 13 point, and the arbitrator is supposed to decide, 'Gee, 14 is that persuasive or not?'" 15 like what the Commission should be doing. 16 MR. JACOBS: 17 THE COURT: 19 step? 20 all be moot? 22 And that to me sounds Well, I mean, ultimately, it may come back to the commissioner. 18 21 But in the end, what you're It may not. But why would you want this Again, only because January may come, and it'll I guess that's the only reason, huh? MR. JACOBS: Well, that and what I had said earlier, which is a problem that may be solvable, www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 21 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 21 1 which is Dr. Overly doesn't want to be viewed as 2 accepting the doubling of the sanction. 3 THE COURT: Yeah. I'm an optimist. I 4 think a good attorney could solve that; okay? 5 got to say I'm having a bit of difficulty getting what 6 the purpose of the remand is on your formulation of 7 it. 8 So I But let me go to Ms. Farrell because 9 she's got a different idea. 10 a partial remand for further consideration of the 11 proportionality principle; right? 12 MS. FARRELL: She says there should be Yes. From the 13 Authority's perspective, any remand would be narrow 14 just on the issue of -- I mean, your decision 15 presumably would be, you know, if it's still in line 16 with the decision that you've already issued, 17 proportionality doesn't apply. 18 You've said what you think the law is. 19 And based on these facts -- and the authorities would 20 ask for the remand back to the arbitrator so that she 21 could issue an amended sanction based upon your 22 determinations and your findings sitting, as the FTC www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 22 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 22 1 recognized, in the seat of an appellate body. 2 THE COURT: Well, see, you've agreed 3 that that's really just an analysis that the 4 arbitrator would make on a remand, presumably either 5 based on briefing or argument or frankly nothing if 6 the arbitrator didn't want to do anything more. 7 Now, you know, you have a 8 proportionality discussion by the arbitrator. 9 the decision. 10 sanctions. 11 my Shell 2 decision, which, of course, the arbitrator 12 didn't have. That's how the arbitrator got to single I gave my own view of that. 13 It's in I interpreted So now there's a new data point. But we're back, it seems to me, to the 14 same place. 15 Himes says about Shell 2. 16 I first ruled on this. 17 If I agree, then Dr. Overly's getting 46 months 18 consecutive sanctions. 19 The arbitrator says, "Oh, I see now what That wasn't before me when Maybe I agree; maybe I don't. If I don't, well, too bad." And again, it sounds like he's 20 reviewing me. 21 doing. 22 benefit of going back to an arbitrator. That's what the Commission ought to be I'm not getting what the parties think is the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 23 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 23 1 MS. FARRELL: The Authority wants to be 2 conservative in their interpretation of what the FTC's 3 decision was in Serpe. 4 THE COURT: But if the result of that 5 is to add time and expense, what's the point? 6 Shouldn't we run the proceeding as efficiently as we 7 can? 8 been able to. 9 something appealable in this case besides the -- 10 The Commission can decide that the Dr. Overly tried to get an appeal. He hasn't If the Commission thinks there's 11 consecutive sanctions construction of the rule is no 12 good. 13 if you don't like it, you can go to a federal court. 14 If Dr. Overly doesn't like it, so can he. 15 And I just have difficulty 16 understanding what real function a remand serves here, 17 other than, again, takes more time, costs more money. 18 I don't know what sanction's, frankly, And then you'll get a decision on that, which, 19 in effect right now, given the circumstances, the 20 procedural posture of the case. 21 Authority ought to be thinking a bit about what 22 sanction's in effect because Mr. Jacobs thinks that by But I mean, the www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 24 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 24 1 January, it's gone. 2 what the Authority would like. 3 for consecutive sanctions. 4 MS. FARRELL: Doesn't sound exactly like that's The Authority's argued I do hear your point, 5 Judge. I'm not authorized to agree with you at this 6 point. And so I guess I would say if Attorney Jacobs 7 is going to go back and talk to his client, I could 8 attempt the same. 9 THE COURT: I mean, I'm just wondering 10 whether we shouldn't just do that when you've heard, 11 you know, each other. 12 seeing -- which is, you know, just kind of this redo 13 of issues that have already been decided, not only by 14 the arbitrator, but by me. 15 to know ultimately is what does the Commission think 16 on this stuff? 17 And the scenario that I'm And what you really want So, I mean, unless someone has another 18 idea, I mean, I think, you know, both sides should 19 just go back and, you know, confer with the people 20 they have to confer with, and maybe we can set up a 21 placeholder for a second conference, or both of you 22 can say, "No. We can't think of any other ideas www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 25 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 25 1 beyond what we've already put forward. 2 "So we'll write you a little email 3 jointly that says that, and you, Himes, decide what 4 you're going to do now." 5 to people? 6 I mean, does that make sense MR. JACOBS: So as I said, I'm happy to 7 go back to Dr. Overly and discuss with him and see if 8 we could come up with some sort of proposal that he 9 would be comfortable with, discuss it with 10 Ms. Farrell. And we'll either come to some agreement, 11 or we won't. And we can report back to you once we 12 know where we've landed. 13 THE COURT: Okay. I mean, does it make 14 sense to set up a placeholder conference as opposed to 15 just an email back? 16 say, "We have some things that we need to talk more 17 about that don't lend themselves to an email." Because you may come back and 18 MR. JACOBS: I'm fine with that. 19 MS. FARRELL: That's fine with me. 20 THE COURT: 21 MS. FARRELL: 22 Pardon me? That's fine with me as well. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 26 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 26 1 THE COURT: I mean, does a week from 2 today at one o'clock still work? 3 that. I mean, I'll make myself available. 4 5 MR. JACOBS: I'm in an arbitration a week from today. 6 7 There's no magic to THE COURT: How long do you think it'll MR. JACOBS: I mean, it's scheduled to last? 8 9 start at -- I'm in Los Angeles at six a.m. here and 10 finish at, I think, eleven a.m. Pacific time, so. 11 THE COURT: So you'd probably rather 12 not do right before the arbitration, like, the day 13 before or anything like that. 14 know, a week from Monday. 15 know, I want to give you people a reasonable chance to 16 think about it and to see whether there's anything 17 that you can jointly agree on to propose to me. 18 maybe something works. 19 20 I don't care. I mean, you And I mean, does a week from Monday work better? 21 22 We can do this, you No? MR. JACOBS: then. I'm in another arbitration Would Friday, the 21st work by chance? www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 27 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 27 1 THE COURT: 2 MS. FARRELL: 3 It works for me. Yeah. That should work for me as well. 4 THE COURT: What time would you like? 5 MS. FARRELL: I could do the eleven 6 o'clock on that day. 7 THE COURT: That okay, Mr. Jacobs? 8 MR. JACOBS: Sure. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. JACOBS: So that's eleven Eastern? 11 THE COURT: Yeah. 12 MR. JACOBS: Okay. 13 THE COURT: Okay. So we'll do that 14 eleven o'clock. 15 agreement and say, "Here's what we propose," or maybe 16 you'll say, "We can't agree on the time of day, so 17 just go do what you're going to do, Himes." 18 And maybe you will either have an You know, the conference is set up as a 19 placeholder. If we don't have to have it, we don't 20 have to have it. 21 can maybe hammer out, then we'll hammer it out, or 22 try. All right. If there's something you think we I mean, all that's fine with me. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 28 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 28 1 Is there anything else that anyone 2 wants to raise? 3 didn't mean to, you know, sort of truncate what we 4 would talk about, so here's your chance. 5 MR. JACOBS: For the appellant, nothing MS. FARRELL: And nothing additional 6 else for us. 7 8 As long as I've got you, I said I from the Authority. 9 But thank you, Your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. Well thank you both 10 for making yourself available. 11 I send an email that asks you to talk jointly about 12 alternative dates or times, please talk to each other 13 beforehand. 14 here, even though it was able to be resolved quickly. 15 But, you know, that helps. 16 MR. JACOBS: Okay. 18 MS. FARRELL: Yes, Your Honor. 19 THE COURT: 17 20 21 22 Okay? By the way, next time It didn't quite happen that way All right? Thank you, Your Honor. Thank you both, and we'll stand adjourned. THE REPORTER: It is 1:33 p.m., and we're off the record. www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 29 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 29 1 (Whereupon, at 1:33 p.m., the 2 proceeding was concluded.) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 30 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 30 1 2 CERTIFICATE I, HELEN TADESSE, the officer before whom 3 the foregoing proceedings were taken, do hereby 4 certify that any witness(es) in the foregoing 5 proceedings, prior to testifying, were duly sworn; 6 that the proceedings were recorded by me and 7 thereafter reduced to typewriting by a qualified 8 transcriptionist; that said digital audio recording of 9 said proceedings are a true and accurate record to the 10 best of my knowledge, skills, and ability; that I am 11 neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any 12 of the parties to the action in which this was taken; 13 and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of 14 any counsel or attorney employed by the parties 15 hereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the 16 outcome of this action. 17 <%34163,Signature%> 18 HELEN TADESSE 19 Notary Public in and for the 20 Commonwealth of Virginia 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 31 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 Page 31 1 2 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER I, OLIVIA LEREBOURG, do hereby certify that 3 this transcript was prepared from the digital audio 4 recording of the foregoing proceeding, that said 5 transcript is a true and accurate record of the 6 proceedings to the best of my knowledge, skills, and 7 ability; that I am neither counsel for, related to, 8 nor employed by any of the parties to the action in 9 which this was taken; and, further, that I am not a 10 relative or employee of any counsel or attorney 11 employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or 12 otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. 13 14 <%35752,Signature%> OLIVIA LEREBOURG 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 32 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing [& - apply] & & 3:5 1 1 11:5 12:58 1:13 5:2 13 1:12 1:33 28:21 29:1 2 2 11:9,17 12:9 12:13 17:8 22:11,15 2026 1:12 20580 1:17 21 5:10 21st 26:22 225 2:5,13 23 8:16,18 10:4 10:16 14:2 19:2,11 24 19:2 25,000 8:17 285-1425 3:9 3 31111 2:5,13 3228 10:13,14 14:3 34163 30:17 350 3:6 35752 31:14 August 13, 2026 Page 1 4 46 10:16 14:4 22:17 48 10:16 4801 3:6 9443 5:8 6 600 1:16 64112 3:7 7 790-8790 2:8 2:16 8 805 2:8,16 816 3:9 9 91361 2:6,14 9443 1:9 a a.m. 26:9,10 ability 9:12 30:10 31:7 able 12:19 23:8 28:14 academic 12:2 accept 17:12 acceptable 8:15 acceptance 14:13 accepted 11:9 accepting 14:10 21:2 accomplish 15:9 accurate 30:9 31:5 action 30:12,16 31:8,12 add 23:5 added 18:3,12 additional 9:1 20:7 28:7 adjourned 28:20 administrative 1:3,14 3:13,15 5:6 7:1 adrv 8:19 afarrell 3:8 affirm 8:16 10:3 16:9 17:6 afternoon 5:17 5:22 ago 7:12 agoura 2:5,13 agree 11:6,17 13:10,16,19 14:9 15:2,3 16:21 17:19 18:6,22 20:9 22:16,17 24:5 26:17 27:16 agreed 13:14 14:20 22:2 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 agreeing 15:5,6 agreement 18:17 25:10 27:15 alj 10:18 15:20 15:22 alj's 16:1 allison 3:4 6:1 9:21 alternative 28:12 amend 13:21 amended 21:21 america 1:1 analysis 22:3 angeles 26:9 anti 15:21 anybody 6:12 appeal 23:7 appealable 23:9 appearance 14:20 appearances 5:14 appellant 1:7 2:2,10 5:15,19 13:5 28:5 appellate 22:1 applied 12:20 applies 11:21 apply 8:18,19 10:4 21:17 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 33 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing [approach - clear] approach 18:7 appropriate 7:22 14:3 arbitral 10:3 11:6 arbitration 26:4,12,21 arbitrator 7:21 8:3,13,17 9:2 10:7 11:14,15 11:16,20 15:16 16:9 17:6,22 18:2,9 19:18 19:22 20:5,5 20:10,10,12,13 21:20 22:4,6,8 22:9,11,14,22 24:14 arbitrator's 12:3 18:20 argue 17:21 argued 24:2 argument 20:1 20:7,10 22:5 arguments 10:11 arrived 8:17 asberry 3:14 asked 8:14 asks 28:11 assigned 5:7 assistant 3:12 3:14 August 13, 2026 Page 2 assume 17:17 17:22 assurance 15:5 athleteslawye... 2:7,15 attempt 24:8 attorney 21:4 24:6 30:14 31:10 attorneys 7:13 audio 6:11 7:16 30:8 31:3 august 1:12 authorities 21:19 authority 3:3 5:21 6:1 8:22 9:11,22 10:1,5 11:2 12:10 23:1,21 24:2 28:8 authority's 10:21 11:4 21:13 24:2 authorized 7:13 12:1 24:5 available 16:7 26:3 28:10 avenue 1:16 award 11:22 awarded 8:3 10:7 11:14 b b 4:1 15:6 back 12:22 13:2 14:12 15:16 19:6,10 19:14 20:17 21:20 22:13,22 24:7,19 25:7 25:11,15,15 bad 22:18 based 10:10 21:19,21 22:5 basically 12:2 beach 3:14 behalf 2:2,10 3:2 6:1 9:10,21 believe 18:4 believes 14:2 benefit 7:18 22:22 best 30:10 31:6 better 19:16 26:20 beyond 8:2 25:1 bit 19:1 21:5 23:21 blend 10:12 body 10:3 11:6 22:1 botha 3:17 7:3 7:4 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 bother 14:5 brief 15:20 briefing 22:5 briefs 8:5,8 13:18 20:11 c c 2:1 3:1 5:1 ca 2:6,14 call 7:20 11:6 called 8:7,8 care 26:14 cares 14:6 case 5:7,10,11 6:17 8:7 12:21 13:20 16:1 17:20,21 23:9 23:20 certain 10:22 certainly 15:3,8 certificate 30:1 31:1 certify 30:4 31:2 chance 26:15 26:22 28:4 charged 11:18 chase 11:3 choose 11:4 circumstances 23:19 city 3:7 clear 10:1,22 16:16 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 34 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing [client - difficulty] client 19:7 24:7 come 13:8 19:6 19:10,14 20:17 20:19 25:8,10 25:15 comes 6:13 comfortable 25:9 coming 13:4 comment 9:11 commission 1:2 5:7,9 9:1 11:2 11:10 12:19,20 12:21 13:2 14:8 20:15 22:20 23:8,10 24:15 commission's 5:11,13 7:20 8:4 commissioner 20:17 commonwealth 30:20 compelling 19:7 compromise 11:7 concerned 14:19 concluded 29:2 conclusion 9:13 confer 24:19,20 August 13, 2026 Page 3 conference 5:12 6:5,6 7:11 7:14 8:9 13:18 24:21 25:14 27:18 conferred 9:9 confident 7:12 confidential 6:8,14 consecutive 12:2 14:3,10 19:4 22:18 23:11 24:3 consecutively 8:19 10:5 conservative 11:1 23:2 consider 5:11 8:14 consideration 21:10 considering 15:8 consistent 5:11 10:22 12:11 16:1 construction 10:10 23:11 construing 10:19 11:12 cont'd 3:1 contend 8:13 correct 6:4 correctly 10:7 12:5 costs 23:17 counsel 3:17 7:5,15 19:15 30:11,14 31:7 31:10 couple 7:11 course 6:6 22:11 court 5:4,20 6:2,5,15,18,21 6:22 7:6,18 10:9,15 11:8 12:12 13:15 14:14,16 15:1 15:14 16:19 17:2,7,11 18:5 18:14,16 19:15 20:3,9,18 21:3 22:2 23:4,13 24:9 25:13,20 26:1,6,11 27:1 27:4,7,9,11,13 28:9,19 cs8385695 1:21 cuff 13:22 cut 11:3 d d 5:1 10:13,14 14:4 dana 3:12 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 data 20:12 22:12 date 1:12 dates 28:12 day 26:12 27:6 27:16 days 7:12 dc 1:17 deal 7:10 dealing 14:22 decide 20:13 23:10 25:3 decided 13:13 24:13 decision 5:12 8:1 14:19 18:21 19:10,19 20:6,7 21:14 21:16 22:9,11 23:3,12 defect 18:11 deficiency 18:3 18:11 description 4:2 determinations 21:22 determine 7:21 difference 19:3 different 13:9 21:9 differently 12:6 12:8 difficulty 21:5 23:15 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 35 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing [digital - ftc's] digital 30:8 31:3 directed 8:18 directing 5:10 directly 12:13 disable 6:11 disabled 10:18 discuss 8:11,15 25:7,9 discussed 13:7 17:8 discussion 8:9 9:5 22:8 docket 1:8 5:8 6:17 doing 6:3 8:10 20:15 22:21 doping 15:21 double 6:3 17:13 doubling 13:11 17:10 21:2 dr 1:6 2:2,10 5:16,19 8:2,21 9:15 13:6,8,10 14:12,19 15:4 21:1 22:17 23:7,14 25:7 duly 30:5 duty 6:3 dvm 1:6 August 13, 2026 Page 4 e e 2:1,1 3:1,1 4:1 5:1,1 earlier 20:6,22 eastern 27:10 effect 8:6 10:9 13:11 14:21 23:19,22 efficiency 12:9 efficiently 23:6 either 9:4 16:8 16:14 22:4 25:10 27:14 eleven 26:10 27:5,10,14 email 14:13 25:2,15,17 28:11 employed 30:11,14 31:8 31:11 employee 30:13 31:10 enable 8:21 es 30:4 esquire 2:3,11 3:4 essence 16:8 essentially 14:13 established 15:21 evd 4:2 everybody's 14:7 exactly 24:1 expense 23:5 explain 8:12 explore 15:11 exploring 15:12 f facilitate 9:13 fact 11:15 facts 17:20 21:19 farrell 3:4 5:22 6:1,4 9:10,18 9:19,21 10:14 10:21 12:7 13:8 18:6,13 18:15 21:8,12 23:1 24:4 25:10,19,21 27:2,5 28:7,18 fashion 13:16 federal 1:2 5:6 23:13 feed 6:7 feel 13:1 filled 18:3 final 6:16 financially 30:15 31:11 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 find 11:10,21 19:16 finding 12:11 findings 16:2 16:21 21:22 finds 15:20 fine 6:10 8:2,17 16:14 25:18,19 25:21 27:22 fines 17:14 finish 26:10 first 8:12 9:6 9:11 16:3 22:16 focus 9:6 followed 16:12 following 8:4 foregoing 30:3 30:4 31:4 forgive 10:12 forgot 16:16 formulation 21:6 forward 25:1 frankly 22:5 23:18 freeman 2:11 5:18 friday 26:22 front 14:8 19:19 ftc 21:22 ftc's 23:2 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 36 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing [function - jacobs] function 23:16 further 7:21 8:9 21:10 30:13 31:9 g g 5:1 gee 20:13 general 3:17 7:5 getting 12:1 21:5 22:17,21 give 19:1 26:15 given 10:8 20:12 23:19 gives 15:4 glad 7:7 go 7:9 11:10 12:13 14:12 21:8 23:13 24:7,19 25:7 27:17 going 9:16 11:21 12:18 13:12 15:12,15 15:16,19 16:16 19:4,6 22:22 24:7 25:4 27:17 good 5:17,22 7:6 18:16 21:4 23:12 gotten 6:9 August 13, 2026 Page 5 granted 8:5 gross 3:12 guess 20:20 24:6 guidance 16:10 guy 12:18 h h 4:1 hammer 27:21 27:21 happen 28:13 happened 12:4 happy 25:6 he'll 18:20,21 hear 12:14 13:11 20:10 24:4 heard 24:10 hearing 1:11 held 13:18 helen 1:18 6:21 30:2,18 hello 7:4 help 5:13 helps 17:3 28:15 hereto 30:15 31:11 himes 1:14 5:5 13:17,20 14:2 14:5 22:15 25:3 27:17 hiwu 6:2 14:6 hiwu.org 3:8 honor 5:18 7:4 9:20 11:5 15:11 16:6 28:8,17,18 hope 9:8 horseracing 3:2,5 howard 2:3,4 2:12 5:18 13:5 howard.jacobs 2:7 huh 20:20 i idea 8:20 21:9 24:18 ideas 24:22 identified 6:7 6:13 8:10 identify 6:19 7:18 impact 15:7 incidental 17:15 increase 10:6 13:10 16:13 increased 8:1 10:19 11:13 14:20 individually 8:18 10:5 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 ineligibility 8:1 8:16 9:15 17:13 inform 5:13 input 20:6 instructions 7:11 integrity 3:2,5 intended 5:12 interested 30:15 31:12 interesting 19:5 interpretation 11:1 23:2 interpreted 22:10 invited 7:7 issue 11:16,22 12:11 13:20 14:19 20:1 21:14,21 issued 8:7 21:16 issues 24:13 it'll 20:19 26:6 j jacobs 2:3,4,12 5:17,18 12:14 12:15 13:4,5 14:11,15,17 15:4,10,18 16:6 17:1,5,9 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 37 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing [jacobs - never] 18:4,18 19:9 19:21 20:4,16 20:21 23:22 24:6 25:6,18 26:4,8,21 27:7 27:8,10,12 28:5,16 january 19:12 20:19 24:1 jay 1:14 job 1:21 jointly 25:3 26:17 28:11 judge 1:14 5:5 5:6 6:1 24:5 judges 1:3 3:13 3:15 7:1 july 5:10 jump 11:20 justification 19:8 k kansas 3:7 katy 2:11 5:18 katy.freeman 2:15 keep 7:16 16:14 16:17 kind 17:7 24:12 know 5:5 7:7 12:5,17,20 13:17 14:19 16:10 17:19 August 13, 2026 Page 6 19:16 20:1 21:15 22:7 23:18 24:11,12 24:15,18,19 25:12 26:14,15 27:18 28:3,15 knowledge 30:10 31:6 l l 2:4,12 landed 25:12 language 14:1 15:3,8 larry 1:6 2:2,10 lashaon 3:14 law 1:3,14 2:4 2:12 3:13,15 5:6 7:1 21:18 leave 8:5 legal 3:12,14 lend 25:17 length 9:14 lerebourg 31:2 31:15 liability 16:5 16:21 light 10:11 line 21:15 link 6:10 7:14 little 25:2 location 1:15 logged 6:10 logistics 7:10 long 15:18 26:6 28:2 look 15:1 18:19 los 26:9 m made 7:22 16:21 19:11 magic 26:2 main 3:6 make 22:4 25:4 25:13 26:3 makes 19:1 making 28:10 marked 4:3 matter 1:5 5:7 8:7 9:5 13:7 14:1 matters 9:14 19:3 mean 9:4 11:3 12:12,16 13:16 14:1 15:7 16:4 16:19 18:6 19:10,11 20:1 20:16 21:14 23:20 24:9,17 24:18 25:4,13 26:1,3,8,14,19 27:22 28:3 member 6:9 members 6:7 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 merits 8:1 13:1 mind 7:12 missing 10:13 18:1 mo 3:7 monday 26:14 26:19 money 14:7 23:17 month 8:16 months 8:18 10:4,16,16,17 14:2,4 19:2,11 22:17 moot 19:13 20:20 move 7:19 multiply 10:17 mute 6:11 n n 2:1 3:1 5:1 name 6:20 narrow 21:13 nay 19:20 necessary 17:18 need 8:21 16:5 25:16 needs 18:2,12 neither 30:11 31:7 never 13:15 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 38 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing [new - proceeding] new 20:12 22:12 nice 7:6 northwest 1:16 notary 30:19 o o 5:1 o'clock 26:2 27:6,14 obviate 8:21 obviously 9:11 offered 11:7 offering 9:3 17:8 office 1:3 3:12 3:15,17 7:1,5 officer 30:2 offices 2:4,12 oh 7:6 13:15 14:14 22:14 okay 5:20 6:2,5 10:15 11:8 12:12 14:2,16 15:1,14 16:2 16:19 17:2,2 17:11,13,15,16 18:5,16,16,19 19:1,19 21:4 25:13 27:7,9 27:12,13 28:9 28:13,16 olivia 31:2,15 August 13, 2026 Page 7 once 11:10 25:11 open 15:8,10 15:11 opportunity 13:2 opposed 25:14 optimist 21:3 option 10:2 11:5,7,9 12:9 12:13 16:16 17:8 19:22 options 16:7,17 oral 20:1 order 5:10,13 7:20 8:4,6 10:22 13:21 16:11,11 ordered 8:14 11:2 ought 22:20 23:21 outcome 30:16 31:12 outset 16:8 overly 1:6 2:2 2:10 5:7,16,19 8:2 9:15 13:6,8 13:10 14:12,19 15:4 21:1 23:7 23:14 25:7 overly's 22:17 own 22:10 p p 2:1,1 3:1,1 5:1 p.m. 1:13 5:2 28:21 29:1 pacific 26:10 pardon 25:20 part 6:17 partial 11:5 12:10 21:10 parties 5:15 8:5 8:11 9:8 13:18 13:19 19:22 20:2,8 22:21 30:12,14 31:8 31:11 party's 10:11 pass 17:21 penalty 14:6 pennsylvania 1:16 people 24:19 25:5 26:15 period 8:2,16 permit 8:9 perspective 21:13 persuasive 20:14 place 22:14 placeholder 24:21 25:14 27:19 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 places 13:8 plain 9:17 please 6:18 7:17 28:12 point 20:13 22:12 23:5 24:4,6 position 11:4 12:16 13:13,20 possible 8:6 posture 23:20 preclude 9:4 prefer 12:10 prejudice 13:19 prepared 8:11 31:3 present 3:11 preserved 14:9 presumably 16:11 18:21 21:15 22:4 principle 21:11 prior 30:5 probably 26:11 problem 20:22 procedural 23:20 procedure 13:17 proceeding 1:15 6:8,14,16 23:6 29:2 31:4 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 39 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing [proceedings - sanctioning] proceedings 9:1 14:22 30:3 30:5,6,9 31:6 producing 11:12 prompt 9:13 proportionality 11:20,21 18:8 21:11,17 22:8 proposal 25:8 propose 15:3 26:17 27:15 proposed 12:9 public 6:8,9,13 6:17 30:19 publicly 6:7 purpose 21:6 put 25:1 q qualified 30:7 question 9:7 16:3 18:9 quicken 14:18 quicker 13:3 quickly 7:9 28:14 quite 28:13 r r 2:1 3:1 5:1 raise 28:2 raising 9:4 rather 11:6 26:11 reach 11:16 reaching 12:22 reaction 9:18 read 14:12 16:19 19:5 reads 18:22 real 23:16 reality 17:9 really 9:12 11:16 22:3 24:14 reason 13:9,9 18:10 20:20 reasonable 26:15 receiving 8:8 recognized 22:1 reconsidering 20:6 record 5:3 18:2 18:13,14 28:22 30:9 31:5 recorded 30:6 recording 30:8 31:4 redo 24:12 reduce 16:15 16:18 reduced 30:7 related 30:11 31:7 relative 30:13 31:10 August 13, 2026 Page 8 remand 7:20 7:21 8:14,21 11:5 12:10 15:22 16:9,10 16:18 17:17,22 18:7,9,18 21:6 21:10,13,20 22:4 23:16 remanded 5:9 20:2,5 remembering 11:19 remote 1:15 report 25:11 reported 1:18 reporter 5:2 6:15,18,20,21 28:21 reporter's 7:18 requiring 14:13 resolution 19:16 resolved 28:14 response 5:13 result 11:13 23:4 review 8:22 12:21 reviewing 19:18 22:20 revisit 16:5,20 rickman 1:6 2:2,10 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 right 6:3 7:19 11:11,19 15:9 17:11,12 19:8 19:18 20:9 21:11 23:19 26:12 27:22 28:15 rights 14:7 road 2:5,13 rule 10:10 11:12 12:1,19 14:3 23:11 ruled 22:16 rules 10:12,19 15:21 ruling 11:17 13:1 rulings 7:22 16:5 run 23:6 s s 2:1 3:1 4:1 5:1 safety 3:2 sanction 10:3,6 11:13 12:11 13:11 14:21 16:14 17:10 21:2,21 sanction's 23:18,22 sanctioning 16:1 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 40 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing [sanctions - think] sanctions 10:20 11:22 12:2 14:3,10 18:19 22:10,18 23:11 24:3 sarah 3:17 7:3 saying 10:4 12:8 13:12 16:7,18 17:16 20:12 says 13:17 19:19 21:9 22:14,15 25:3 scenario 19:17 24:11 scheduled 26:8 scott 8:7 17:19 seat 22:1 second 9:7 10:2 24:21 see 6:13 7:7 12:6,7 18:21 22:2,14 25:7 26:16 seeing 24:12 seek 8:22 seems 17:14 22:13 send 28:11 sense 10:4 19:1 25:4,14 sent 7:11 12:22 separate 11:17 August 13, 2026 Page 9 serpe 5:12 8:6 8:21 11:2 16:20 23:3 serve 9:15 served 19:11 serves 23:16 set 24:20 25:14 27:18 shell 11:17 22:11,15 showed 19:7 side 9:4 side's 13:20 sides 24:18 signature 30:17 31:14 simply 8:15 13:10 single 11:22 22:9 sir 5:3 6:20 sitting 21:22 six 26:9 skills 30:10 31:6 slight 13:5 solvable 20:22 solve 21:4 sorry 13:5 15:11 sort 25:8 28:3 sound 24:1 sounds 19:17 20:14 22:19 speak 7:13 12:18 speaking 7:15 7:17,17 13:22 specifically 8:13 staff 6:22 stand 28:20 start 5:15 9:7 26:9 states 1:1 step 20:19 stick 19:5 street 3:6 stuff 24:16 subject 11:11 15:19 submit 8:5 submitted 15:22 subsequent 8:6 substance 7:10 7:19 suggest 16:20 suggesting 9:12 16:4 suggestion 16:4 suggestions 9:3 suite 2:5,13 3:6 summarized 12:4 supposed 18:20 20:13 www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 sure 20:3,3 27:8 sworn 30:5 t t 4:1 tadesse 1:18 6:21 30:2,18 take 7:20 15:12 15:15 18:19 20:11 taken 30:3,12 31:9 takes 23:17 talk 15:17 24:7 25:16 28:4,11 28:12 talked 13:17 technical 14:1 technically 12:21 terms 12:8 terribly 14:6 testifying 30:5 thank 5:4 6:22 7:8 9:19 28:8,9 28:16,19 themself 6:19 things 25:16 think 6:12 9:5 9:14 10:13 12:4,15 13:16 14:6 15:4,13 17:16,17 18:1 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 41 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Hearing August 13, 2026 [think - yeah] 18:11 19:3,7 19:11,12,21 21:4,18 22:21 24:15,18,22 26:6,10,16 27:20 thinking 12:3 23:21 thinks 23:8,22 third 16:15 19:21 thought 9:8 three 15:6 16:17 thursday 1:12 time 1:13 5:2 12:17 19:13 23:5,17 26:10 27:4,16 28:10 times 7:16 15:5 28:12 today 7:15 18:17 26:2,5 took 12:21 13:18 topics 8:10 9:6 trade 1:2 5:6 transcribed 6:16 transcriber 31:1 transcript 31:3 31:5 Page 10 transcriptionist 30:8 tried 23:7 true 30:9 31:5 truncate 28:3 try 27:22 trying 19:16 twenty 15:6 two 8:10 9:3 10:17 11:7 15:1,3,5 typewriting 30:7 u ultimate 14:18 ultimately 13:12 20:4,16 24:15 under 14:3 understand 10:7 12:8 17:16 understanding 10:18 14:18 23:16 understood 10:2,6 undertook 10:10 unit 3:5 united 1:1 week 26:1,5,14 26:19 version 6:16 welfare 3:5 video 6:6,11 westlake 2:6,14 7:11,16 witness 30:4 videoconfere... wondering 2:3,11 3:4,13 24:9 3:16,18 view 7:22 10:17 work 15:12,15 26:2,19,22 16:13 22:10 27:2 viewed 21:1 works 14:4 village 2:6,14 26:18 27:1 violations worry 12:17 11:17 worrying 17:15 virginia 30:20 worth 17:15 w worthy 9:5 want 13:13 write 25:2 14:8 15:14 wrong 9:17 20:18 21:1 11:11 19:13 22:6 24:14 wrote 15:20 26:15 17:18 wanted 8:10 x 13:3 x 4:1 wants 23:1 y 28:2 washington yay 19:19 1:17 yeah 9:19 way 6:9 9:16 10:15 13:22 10:19 11:12 14:15 18:14 12:3 17:18 20:9 21:3 27:2 18:5 28:10,13 27:11 we've 20:12 25:1,12 v www.CapitalReportingCompany.com 202-857-3376 FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 42 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC Federal Rules of Civil Procedure Rule 30 (e) Review By the Witness; Changes. (1) Review; Statement of Changes. On request by the deponent or a party before the deposition is completed, the deponent must be allowed 30 days after being notified by the officer that the transcript or recording is available in which: (A) to review the transcript or recording; and (B) if there are changes in form or substance, to sign a statement listing the changes and the reasons for making them. (2) Changes Indicated in the Officer's Certificate. The officer must note in the certificate prescribed by Rule 30(f)(1) whether a review was requested and, if so, must attach any changes the deponent makes during the 30-day period. DISCLAIMER: THE FOREGOING FEDERAL PROCEDURE RULES ARE PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY. THE ABOVE RULES ARE CURRENT AS OF APRIL 1, 2019. PLEASE REFER TO THE APPLICABLE FEDERAL RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE FOR UP-TO-DATE INFORMATION. FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 43 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS COMPANY CERTIFICATE AND DISCLOSURE STATEMENT Veritext Legal Solutions represents that the foregoing transcript is a true, correct and complete transcript of the colloquies, questions and answers as submitted by the court reporter. Veritext Legal Solutions further represents that the attached exhibits, if any, are true, correct and complete documents as submitted by the court reporter and/or attorneys in relation to this deposition and that the documents were processed in accordance with our litigation support and production standards. Veritext Legal Solutions is committed to maintaining the confidentiality of client and witness information, in accordance with the regulations promulgated under the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA), as amended with respect to protected health information and the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, as amended, with respect to Personally Identifiable Information (PII). Physical transcripts and exhibits are managed under strict facility and personnel access controls. Electronic files of documents are stored in encrypted form and are transmitted in an encrypted FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION | OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY | FILED 08/13/2026 OSCAR NO. 616261 -PAGE Page 44 of 44 * PUBLIC * PUBLIC fashion to authenticated parties who are permitted to access the material. Our data is hosted in a Tier 4 SSAE 16 certified facility. Veritext Legal Solutions complies with all federal and State regulations with respect to the provision of court reporting services, and maintains its neutrality and independence regardless of relationship or the financial outcome of any litigation. Veritext requires adherence to the foregoing professional and ethical standards from all of its subcontractors in their independent contractor agreements. Inquiries about Veritext Legal Solutions' confidentiality and security policies and practices should be directed to Veritext's Client Services Associates indicated on the cover of this document or at www.veritext.com. --- Source: Frix Law Library, https://www.frixlaw.com/law-library/documents/agency%3Aftc%3A4dda4c4a273554a1. Public record. Not legal advice.